June 17, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode, Karlos Dillard speaks with Shantel about her experiences as a kinship adoptee. They discuss the challenges of growing up in an adoptive home, the impact of abuse and neglect, and the importance of resilience and support systems. Shantel shares her journey through teenage pregnancy, navigating relationships with her biological family, and the resources available for young parents. They also explore the concept of the 'adoption fog' and the necessity of therapy for adoptive families. The conversation emphasizes the importance of sharing lived experiences to create change and support others in similar situations.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Content warning. The Wards of the State podcast may contain
material that may be harmful or traumatizing to some audiences.
Listener discretion is advised. Heylight Shiners, Welcome back to another
(00:37):
amazing episode of Ward of the State. I know, guys,
it's kind of a tongue twister because I've been selling
my book Ward of the State, and it was great
marketing for me to market all of this the same.
But it gets really confusing when I'm speaking of the book,
which is Ward of the State, and then I speak
of the podcast, which is Wards of the State. I
put that s on there. But no, guys, we're welcoming
back another episode. We are almost to one hundred eisodes, y'all.
(01:00):
That's one hundred different lived experiences. There's been so many,
so so so many. I was actually just doing a
lift experience consultation yesterday with an adopted parent, and y'all know,
I'm using y'all episodes as a resource because some of
y'all stories are really resourceful when it comes to what
your parents did good and what your parents did bad
or what they could have improved on. So this podcast
(01:23):
in itself and you guys sharing your stories is a
resource for adoptive and foster parents and children who've been
adopted or have been through the child welfare system so
they don't feel like they're alone. I get a lot
of dms from people saying, like Carlo's episode so and
so made me feel like I was actually heard because
that's the first time I've heard someone go through a
similar experience. So if you are wanting to share your story, guys,
(01:43):
there is a link at the end or in the
boy of all my social media, and it also be
in the show notes here on the podcast episode for
you to share your story if you've been adopted, or
if you've been in foster care or in kinship or
any other type of external childcare. Because sharing our stories
or how weeks create change, and creating dialogue creates change,
and sharing dialogue creates change. So I want to appreciate
(02:04):
everyone who's done so so far and share their stories.
I want to encourage you who haven't to shine up
through the link. And I also want to thank all
the listeners for listening every week. I know we haven't
been doing weekly out because honestly, it's been slowing down.
I've been doing a lot of work in person. I
had a change. We changed our company from a media
company to a management company, so now we're also managing
(02:24):
properties and media and we're doing we're managing other authors,
so I'm doing a whole lot more, so you guys
will see less and less of me advocating. I know
you guys are really used to me being an advocate online.
I've set my schedule back to you know, nine to
two on TikTok. But as far as the podcast, guys,
I'm going to push them out as long as I can,
but I can only do what people sign up. So
(02:47):
I think the last three months we've had two a month,
which is pretty good. I would like to do on
one a week for you guys, but I can only
get the stories out as quickly as people share them.
So if you know somebody they would like to share
their experience, please encourage them to do so. The listener.
Thank you all for y'all SKIN team support and patients
as we navigate this new growth period for the organization
and our company here at Dealer Management. One last thing,
(03:10):
make sure you guys are leaving a one, two, three, four,
five star rating review as well, and also make sure
that you are subscribing to us on Spotify, and like
I said earlier, you guys can watch the video episodes
on YouTube. The video episodes are available on YouTube because
I know some of you guys enjoy us seeing our
beautiful faces. So without that, without any other announcement, we
are going to introduce the next guest of the show,
(03:30):
a chantelle. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Hey, I'm doing good. How are you?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I am blessed and highly favored, So thank you so
much for coming on the wards of this day podcast.
And let's just kind of start off to your on
your personal lived experience. Are your kinship adopted? Correct?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So? I initially was going to be adopted by an
aunt when I was like three years old, but she
passed away like a day before the adoption, and then
I went back into custody, state custody, and then my
aunt uncle adopted me.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Awesome. So how old were you when you're at an
uncle adopted you?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So they got me when I was around like four,
but the adoption was finalized when I was in like
second grade, so it took a little while.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Okay, And how was your experience growing up with your
your aunts and uncle?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh my gosh, terrible. No, I mean, I will say
that it was more stable because like they provided me
the basics like clothes, food, shelter, stuff like that. But
I feel like the love peace was not there, and
I do feel like abuse started to come and to
(04:40):
play because they had this like odd belief that the
worst of behavior the worst like the object that they
would use to like spank you with. So I was
considered the rebellious child, so I often got whooped with
like very thick extension cords.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Wow, that's crazy. Were you then? Do you have any
biological siblings?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
M hm, so I have four, well, three brothers. It's
four kids, and you know, including myself. But my brother
and I were closer in age, so we were adopted
into this family of like seven. And then my other
two brothers came like after us, and they weren't adopted.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And they weren't adopted. Did they live with you guys,
your younger two brothers. Did they live with the aunt
and uncle or no?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
They did not. They stayed with my mom unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Okay, so how was growing up? Like you said, there
was a little bit of abuse, but how was growing up?
Did they treat their children any differently than you guys?
Because you guys are still cousins.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So yeah, so sure we were still family, but I
definitely noticed a like difference in how I was treated.
I was often blamed for like things happening in the
house or like you know, like sibling fights happened, and
it was always like put off on me. They also,
I wouldn't necessarily say my adopted my adopted dad, which
(05:58):
was my uncle, he didn't put too much blame on me,
but he also didn't speak up for me either, like
advocate for me when he's seen what his wife, you know,
would do to me. And so there was an instincts
of where me and my adopted sister had got into
this big fight over like shoes or something, and so
she started throwing shoes at me, and you know, so
(06:20):
we got into this big fight, and so her daughter
like runs to her and it's like crying like, oh,
Chantel did this, and she like holds her daughter. And
then so my adopted dad comes out and he's like,
what's going on, what's going on? And she was like
Chantel And so like everybody in the house is just like,
you know, everybody in the house was just kind of
(06:42):
pending things on me. It was like, oh, Shantell's fat,
Shantell's fault. So I ended up getting a spinking with
like an extension quarter or something, and then she I think,
she just I don't. I don't even remember what happened,
to be honest, I just remember what happened to me.
So I just feel like their expectation of me was
(07:02):
just already low because they looked at my mom as
like this terrible person because she was like on drugs
and so like even now, like my adopted parents would
say things like, oh, we thought you were going to
turn out like your mom, and so it was just
it's very disappointing because I'm just like you guys, really
they really did think low of me, to be honest,
(07:24):
and it's just something I'm still working through, like in therapy. Obviously,
I'm still bothered by it.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
But no, it's and it's okay, and it's natural to
cry and it's natural to have emotions. You know, this
is a safe space. But you know, this is something
that needs to be heard because a lot of people think,
you know, kinship is always our first alternative when it
comes to adoption. Everyone says, like, what should be the
first alternative? And I always go to kinship, because we
do know that children do tend to do better. But
(07:52):
these experiences in kinship need to be spoken of as well,
because it's not always they like, it's not always a
safe alternative. And then that way we need to look
at the other alternatives like fictive kinship or guardianship, because
not all families are going to be a safe place
for their family member. So I really appreciate you being
vulnerable and sharing. Now did the kid It sounds like
(08:13):
the other kids kind of took advantage of you being
like the scapegoat of everything.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Absolutely, they knew that they could throw everything off on
chantel if something happened, if they say chantel, then it
was always was always me and then my voice was
never heard like in these like disagreements or you know,
conflicts or whatever. And yes, was I a rambunctious child, yes,
(08:37):
but I also had a lot of trauma. And I
felt like in our community we don't really we always
deem things as like bad or like a spirit because
like I was raised in, it was very Pentecostal Christian
helpful too, So they didn't believe in life therapy, didn't
believe any of that. They just believed that if they
(08:59):
spanked me hard then I would behave which obviously that's
not gonna work. So I remember being punished for like
like a year or two. She pulled me out of
school when I was in eighth grade and I missed
like two years of school because I was homeschool. Go figure.
I was not. I would do like little activities, but
for the most part I was just kind of like
(09:19):
providing support for her in her daycare because she needed
like an extra person. So yeah, so I was out
of school for like for two years, and then I
was also grounded. I wasn't allowed to go outside. I
remember one time, like my friend came by to like
say hi or something. It was like a neighborhood friend,
and like I had peeked opened the like screen door
(09:39):
and was like hi, and she found out I did that,
and I got a spank in for doing that. So
it was it was very It was a very abusive household.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
What other types of abuse did you, Like, was she
physically abusive when you weren't getting punished?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Can you repeat that I'm sorry?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So like like so it sounds like there were spankings
like as a consequent of actions. Was there just abuse,
just like was there days when she would just come
home and disabuse people.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
There were days where she would just be very like
upset with me. I wouldn't say that she like abused
me like outside of like discipline, if that makes sense,
but I will say there were days where she was
just rude to me and not like her other kids.
I remember she had thought that I had said I
(10:28):
hate you. We were like talking and I was just like, well,
I really want to go outside, I want to see
my friends. And I don't even know how she thought
that I said I hate you. All I know is
that she was triggered by me just being a teenage girl,
you know, advocating for myself, and she picked up an
ascension cord and just started hitting me over and over
like and it hit me right in this eye right here,
(10:50):
if you can see, I still have like a little
damage here, which is why it's darker. And I just
remember feeling like this shooting pain go down my face.
I went to try to run out of the house
or whatever, and she grabbed me and kind of threw
me back, and then she realized what she did and
she just she stumped, and so I was crying, and
(11:13):
when I saw my face because I felt it, but
I didn't see it. So when I went in the
bathroom and see my face, I started freaking out and
I was just like, we need to go to the hospital.
We need to go to the hospital. She did not
take me.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Ooh, she's still alive. She did because she needs I
need to run these hands. I need to run these hands.
So you said that your uncle, your adopted father, didn't
really abuse that much when he turned the blind eye,
and that seems to be a pattern that happens with
adoptive parents. That's my experience as well. I can't say
that my adoptive father was completely innocent, but I will
(11:45):
say that he wasn't responsible for the majority of the abuse.
It was his wife. But as I get older and
as I unpacked, you know what happened to me and
I'm a man now at his age where he adopted me,
I was like, sir, what were you doing? Like you
have you're the man of the house. And my parents
are also like traditionally Catholic, so like the whole like
man of the house thing, So you could have told
(12:07):
your wife to stop, but you didn't, right, And I
think a lot of the I think some parents, especially relationships,
I think like they are afraid of their partners, right,
Like there's there's there are spousal abuse going on there
too that as kids, like we really can't see, but
there's that that that diaspora, you know, that experience, right,
they could be going through that as well, especially with
(12:28):
an abusive personality. Did they did she abuse any of
your other siblings or were like, was that just something
that she did to all of you guys? And you
just got the worst of it.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
From my memory and from my perspective, I don't recall
them getting like serious punishments like like I got. It
was I either I never got whooped with a like belt.
I was either an extension cord or sometimes like a
switch from a tree. They would like tell me to
go pick a switch or something like that.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
And now did your biological brother who you got adopted with,
did they treat him like they treated you? Or did
he get treated differently?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
He got treated a little bit better than me, But
I feel like it's because he kind of conformed to
like their the way they were, and I was kind
of I was like very radical, very opinionated, very you know,
and they didn't like that because I was Pentecostal. You're
not supposed to do that.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Mm hmmmmmm. So during this time, did you because okay,
because you said your your mom was working on with
through addiction, did you guys have any relationship with your
mom or did you see your mom like family gatherings
or anything.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah? Sometimes, but yes, So I did see my mom
and she was coming around like a little bit, and
then she just like stopped coming. But I don't really
know why she stopped. I feel like I honestly, I
don't know, but my opinion, I feel like she stopped
because maybe it was something between her and my adopted
(13:56):
mom because I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
But you had the chance to talk to her as
an adult. You're a biological mom.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, but she passed away back in twenty twenty one,
and you, like, our relationship was very like weird because
I feel like growing up, I was kind of taught
to like despise her in a sense because it's just like, oh,
she's an addic, she's this, she's said, you know so,
(14:26):
and then I feel like they put it instilled in me,
don't be like your mom, don't be like your mom.
Don't be like your mom like so much to the
point where I started to like not like her in
a sense because I felt like she was this bad person.
She was going to go to hell again, the Pentecostal thing.
And so yeah, I will say kind of jumping back
on your point of like kinship adoptions and how they
(14:47):
can be good. Like my aunt Louise, who passed away
when I was three. She was amazing. She was amazing.
I don't know how I remember this, probably because it
was a dramatic time, but she was amazing and I
that I would have gotten adopted by her, but you know,
things happened.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, we can't. We can't change that. We don't have
a little crystal ball. Right. Yeah, so you're growing up?
Did you? How was how was I getting through high school?
Did your parents support you through high school? I know
that you said that you had from eighth grade to
like ninth grade, you didn't do school, But how was
graduating high school and getting on your feed and becoming adult?
How was that experience for you? That was rough?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Okay, So I didn't go back to school until what
was supposed to be my sophomore year, but because there
was no like homeschool type structure. I had to like
be flunked to like ninth grade. I would have been
I would have had to repeat eighth grade because I
didn't finish, but because of my age, they let me
go to ninth grade. So high school was very interesting.
(15:50):
I will say that, like once I got in high school,
I was confined to this house for years, couldn't do anything,
no outside contact, no nothing. So when I finally got
into high I feel like I kind of just exploded
a little bit. I you know again, like I didn't
have any guidance. I was just kind of doing my
own thing. I'm like, oh, I need to spend time
with my friends. I don't get to spend time with
(16:12):
my friends outside of school, so let me like skip
school and like go to their house or whatever, because
like their parents are like, let me go do this.
And you know, so, I definitely feel like I got
on like the wrong foot in high schools.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
But no, that's understandable because you know, you have been
so restricted with everything for so long, So it's definitely
understandable to you know, go buck Wold a little bit.
When you do get a little bit of freedom. Yeah,
when you were in high school, did you have like,
did you have jobs? If you did have a job,
did your parents make you pay for anything in the house?
Like how was that experience?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
No, I did not have. So I did have a job,
but I didn't. So when I was sixteen, I think
I was sixteen, I was I started becoming like sexually active,
and my adopted mom kind of found out that I
was a sexual actor. So I was like, well, she knows,
so let me go to her and just ask her
to put me on like some form of contraceptive. And
so I asked her like, hey, like, you know, can
(17:10):
you put me on perfont trol because I'm sexually active?
And she was just like, now if you're what does
she say something along the lines of doing the devil's work,
then that's between you and God or something like that.
So I got pregnant, to say the least, at sixteen,
and uh yeah, So I got pregnant at sixteen, and
at that point I did start working because I was like, well,
(17:32):
I need to like get a job. So I ended
up like dropping out of high school and she ended
up putting me in a group home. Yeah, when I
was like pregnant, I was sixteen. Yeah, so yeah, I
stayed in a group home until I had my baby,
and they try to, like, honestly, they try to get
me to put her up for adoption. But that's another story.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, they only they see a young sixteen year old girl. Yeah,
they're they're going to try. But you kept your child.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I did? I did?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And how was that? Like? Did you after the hospital?
Did you get any support from your adoptive parents raising her?
Or no?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Oh no I didn't. I feel like the most support
I got was in the group home when it came
to like raising her, even though they.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Left you in a group home with your baby.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Well, I'm getting to that. So they left me in
the group basically. And then my daughter's dad passed away
while I was pregnant, and so I was trying to
like go back home, and so I went. She was
just like, no, you need to stay there. You need
to let them help you because I was the problem.
And so I was just like, Okay, well, I guess
(18:39):
that I'm here. And so I ended up finishing the
group home's program. So I had to go back home
at this point, and so I went back home. This
is after I have had my baby.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
By the way, So where was the baby the whole
time you're finishing the program?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
It was with me. They had this mother baby program
that they put me in. Yeah, okay, yeah, so I
mean it was nice. It was nice. But so anyways,
I go back and live with my adopted mom. My
adopted mom is not happy. She's like I don't want
her back here. She's not ready, she doesn't belong here.
And I'm like actively telling her like, hey, like I
(19:15):
want to, you know, start college. I want to get
back in high school to like finish because I knew
that I had to do something because I had a
child at this point. And she was just like, that's
between you and your college, like not very helpful at all.
But meanwhile, like I'm seeing her daughters like come and
like she's like trying to enroll them in college, you know,
trying to do these tours with them and like all
(19:36):
this stuff. But I have to figure it out by myself.
She wasn't helpful. So one day police officers came to
the house and they were like, hey, you need to come.
What else did you say you wanted to kill your
your daughter? My daughter's three months at the time. I
didn't mind you. I did not say any of this,
so I'm just like, where is this coming from? And
so I was like, no, but being seventeen, you don't
(19:57):
really have much say, so so I had to go
with them. They took me to a psychiatric hospital and
so they end up putting me impatient there because they
said that I was depressed. So I stay in this
hospital for like maybe a week or two or whatever.
My adopted man has my baby, and then it was
(20:18):
time for me to discharge. I think that's what it's called.
And so an attorney called me and said, hey, Shantel,
we just got out of court, you know, with your
adopted mom, and she's legally abandoning you. So I was like, what,
Like can you imagine being abandoned in a pychiatric hospital?
Like what.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Put me back so much to put on a seventeen
year old who just had a baby. So how does
she go about legally abandoning you? Like she just went
to the court and side I don't want her.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
She honestly don't even know I think I honestly don't
even know me.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
You can you can go you can go to the
court and say I don't want I give up my
rights and I don't want my child. They usually don't
allow you to do that. There's some charges, but if
you're seventeen you have a baby, they'll probably be like, okay, well.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
You know, well she ended up losing her daycare because.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, because you can't. You can't abandon children and think
you're gonna keep a daycare. That was like my mother,
she abandoned me and then started talking about it on
or like on TikTok and she was a teacher and
lost her teaching license. You're stupid, ma'am, Like, you can't
admit to abandoning a child and then think you're going
to be allowed around other people's children. So so they
(21:32):
you get this call from this attorney and what happens
after that?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Okay, So I was like where am I gonna live?
Like I'm trying to figure out, like what is going
to happen? And so she was just like, well, DHS
is involved. Now they're gonna come get you and blah
blah blah.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
What about your baby?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Well she had, you know, she had her. At this point,
I remember packing my stuff in a black trash bag
and you know, walking down the hall and waiting on
DHS to come and they're like, Hi, you know where
you're gonna be with us? Blah blah blah. And they
end up taking me to this children shelter in Oklahoma.
(22:11):
So I stayed in that children's shelter for a little
while and then like maybe a couple of days later,
they brought my baby there and there's like another part
of the shelter where look like babies were, so they
had her saying in that and I would like go
over there like every day to see my daughter.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I love that. So were you able to when you
turn eighteen? Like did they give you any resources to
help you with high school?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
How did that process work? And then were you able
to get out with your daughter?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah? So they end up requiring me to like take
parenting classes and like a bunch of other stuff, And
you know, I did what I had to do. And
what I will say is that DHS does suck. But
when it came to funding my education, they were amazing.
They gave me so many resources. They paid up to
(22:57):
my bachelor's degree.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I tell people all the time, like, you shouldn't be
afraid of DHS if you have nothing to be afraid of,
Like if you honestly have not done anything wrong, and
you're just like a young impoverished person ask them for help, Like,
they really do have a lot of resources for you. Yeah,
but the issue is it's people who are like, I
ain't done nothing. They beating the funk out their kids.
Of course they're not like like, if you truly have
not done anything wrong, call them and say I need help,
(23:21):
I need some resources. They have a bunch. They do
have a bunch. They really So they helped you with
get finish high school, get through college fund that did
they give you any funding for like childcare? I'm sure
that they held they help you with childcare as well.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Mm hm. And they gave me when I moved out
on my own, they would pay my rent every month.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So you were were you in an extended foster care
program then? Technically in Oklahoma? So yeah, because that sounds
like extended foster care where you because once your mom
released you back into like once she abandoned, you became
a ward of the state technically again yeah, and that's
why that's how DHS can give you all of those
resources and then ye, then after eighteen you can go
(24:02):
into what they call extended foster care, which means they'll
cover you to twenty one or twenty six, and they
help pay for rent, they help you with college, they
help you with food Stamp, they help you with everything, yeah,
even your child. So that's amazing that you took advantage
of that.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I did. I did thankfully my older cousin. You know
how you have like older cousins, but they're like an aunt,
so you call them auntie. I don't know, that might
be like a black family thing.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, but my.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Older cousin end up finding out that I was in
the shelter and so she let me live with her,
like maybe a couple of months until living in the shelter,
and so me and my daughter, you know, we live
with her for a little while. Uh. So that was
that was really I really appreciate her for that. And
then on top of like having VHS helped me with
you know, different types of funding and then moving out
(24:49):
on my own when I was nineteen and then paying
my rent stuff allowed me to be this full time
college student and work part time so that I can,
you know, get to where I am now now I
have my master's in relations Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Congratulations. Look, we love a story. We love a good
triumphant story. I love that. I love love love that.
I love that you went into a career field that
you know, gave back to what you need it the most.
And I have a saying like, be the adult that
you needed when you were a child, right, And a
lot of us just need adults like ourselves who are
going to go back and say I'm going to stand
(25:25):
up and I'm going to speak up. So how old
is your daughter now?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
She's about to be fourteen, she's.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You're oh my god, that's such a I have my
niece for a year and it was a fun age,
but that age is difficult too. And so the boys,
the boys, it's not even the boys, it's her. I
was just like, girl, it's calm down. But no, that's amazing.
That's so amazing. So how is your relationship? Is there
any relationship with your adoptive parents now? Or they're your family?
So I mean, I'm sure you see them at events
(25:52):
and stuff, So how does that work out?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So we do have a relationship, but it's kind of weird.
It's one of those things where a lot of people,
like you know that all this abuse has happened, and
then you just kind of like you know, and I
will say, like her and her and I had set
down and had a conversation a couple of months ago,
and she apologized in a way. But what I realized
(26:20):
is that like it was kind of like an indirect apology,
if that makes sense, Like I can tell that she
does have some type of like you know, remorse, is
that the right word. But still I don't think she
still treats me differently than her kids. So I just
have to tell myself, like, if I'm going to deal
with her, then you know, this is just what it is.
(26:42):
And I don't I think it's the level of and
I don't know why I deal with her, but I
think it's the level of just one an acceptance from
you know, from like a mother figure, because like I
feel like here I am was supposed to be given
another opportunity at having like parents and then and then
happened the way it should have.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
So there and and a lot of people when I
speak about my abandonment issues, a lot of people say, like,
why do you still call your mom? After everything I've
heard about what she did to you? Why do you
still call her your mom? I'm like, because she's still
my mom regardless of the abuse. Legally, she's still my mom,
right emotionally, she's still my mother. That's the person who
I was told was gonna give me a forever home
(27:22):
and a different opportunity in life. Right, Yeah, it does
feel a little bit different when you were a child
and you're like I was supposed to get something that
I didn't get, and then to have those conversations with
them as adults now you are other siblings. She said
that she still treats them differently. Did they all go
and graduate college and do great things with their lives? No, No,
(27:42):
they never do. They never do. They never do. That's
why I asked that it's always the one kid who
was a problem child, and who's the one that they
treated like shit that actually picks themselves up and be something.
And then there's the people that they just gave everything
the world too, and they I don't do anything with it.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
It's just like, you know, what's so funny is one
of my adopted sisters. I don't know. They were just
so mean to me, and I don't know why looking
back on it, and I don't know why I went
around them as much as I did. But I think
it's just the acceptance, giz. But I remember we were
having a conversation about like just school and stuff, and
I was just like I was learning like so much
and not you know, like when you're in school and
you're learning stuff or just learning in general, you don't
(28:23):
have to be in school. You want to share those
things with people, right, And I was like nineteen, so
I wanted to share these things. And they were just like,
anybody can go to school and the only reason why
I'm not in school is because you have these white
people helping you. And I'm just like, you know why
these white people are helping me because your.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Mom abandoned me. Check me. That was so funny, because
thank you for abandoning me, because now I have help.
Like that's crazy. So now they mad that you got abandon.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
You. I signed you up for Oklahoma Promise and financial aid,
you didn't finish college on your own. Had nothing to
do with me.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
So m mmmm, it's always that. That is always how
it goes. So Chantelle's is something that we wanted to address.
Also on the podcast was adoptive families needing therapy. Do
you think that intense therapy should be a requirement for
all adoptive families before they adopt and even after they adopt.
What is your your.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I feel I really feel like it should be a
requirement for like while they're going through the adoption process,
therapy needs to be had, like individual therapy and family therapy,
especially because this is like traumatic mm hmmm, not only
for like the other kids coming in, but especially like
for for me, Like my aunt Louise had just dropped
(29:45):
that in front of me. I witnessed that, and then
I get put in foster care and then into another placement,
like I should have.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Had therapy, absolutely, And the right type of therapy is
also important because you know, my parents didy put me
in therapy, but it was the wrong type and that
even dad even more harm, you know, So I always
tell people the right type of therapy is also really
really important. What do you use? What parts of your
lived experience do you using your practice?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I think just remembering, like as a therapist that all
behavior is a sign of communication. And I get a
lot of parents that are saying, oh, this kid is bad,
and it's kind of like a trigger word for me
because I'm just because that's what I was called all
the time, and I'm just like, no, like, they're not bad.
What are they trying to communicate with you? What are
they trying to tell you? And so when I have
like individual therapy sessions with my clients, they'll tell me like, hey,
(30:34):
this is what I'm feeling. I'm doing this because XYZ
and so we end up coming together, you know, during
family therapy, moms crying, Kiddle's clock crying, and you know,
change can be made, you know with that. But I
always tell parents like, no, they're not bad, They're communicating
and this is how they know how to communicate.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Absolutely, And I think that is really important for adults
to realize that, especially with the kids who've been through trauma,
that there's no book on regular life. There definitely isn't
how to on how to navigate trauma. And if you
have a child that has experienced trauma, that behavior is
going to come out in different ways. What I tell
clients a lot is if you have a child that
(31:14):
has experienced trauma and they are not showing any signs,
that's the one I want to look out for, because
you have a like a teapot and it's going to
be just a random situation or a random day and
that child's going it's going to make a decision that
changed their entire life. I was talking to this one
adoptive mom the other week, and she was saying how
(31:35):
she didn't believe about adoption trauma. She didn't think that
her son had any issues. They gave him the world.
He was a great kid, but mad at the world.
But she knew. But she just kept throwing money and
throwing degrees and stuff at the issue and never addressing
what his actual problem was. And he got married and
up unliving his wife like two weeks after they got
married because he didn't know how to emotionally navigate. He
(31:56):
didn't know how to emotionally communicate. And I tell people
all the time it's really important with your adoptee too,
even if they're not showing any signs of you know,
adoption depression or attachment issues, still address it because we
already know the statistics, right, So you may not be
feeling it now, but you will in the future. So
at least give them the tools so if it does
come up, because it will, that they'll be like, oh,
(32:16):
this is what that therapist was talking about, and let
me use some of these tools that I learned there, right.
And I also think that because a lot of adoptions
are so enthralled with religion that I think therapy has
thrown out the window because God got you. If God
got it, why are y'all all crackheads? If Goding had
y'all in a minute. And like, I'm not religious, and
(32:41):
I don't hate people who are religious, but like I
really cannot stand when people weaponize religion over therapy. Like
you can pray about it, go do that, but then
also talk to a human being too, right, Like I'm
not telling you not to give up your religion or
your faith, but what and then I start you and
they'll face with faith without work it's fake. Okay, that
(33:04):
work part was meant to go do a therapist, that's
what they mean. And that if y'all want to use
the book, it says faith without work. Okay, that work
mental health work. Okay, that's what they were talking about.
But you know, they like to pick and shoes, they
love to pick. Oh, guy said that he don't like gays,
but hear you eating pigs feet and some silk and cotton. Okay,
(33:24):
shut up.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Me to hell for being pregnant.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
But I'm like I'm telling you right right, they were
ready seeing you to hell, but they abusing children, right,
That was what iut that without sending throw the first stone,
because all y'all be stoned, right, you be stoned as hell.
I hate that. I was just talking about. I was
just talking to that about to my brother because you know,
(33:48):
I'm gay and I and I have a religious family,
and I'm not even like gay. I'm like gay and
it's like I've been married to the same man for
fifteen years going on, like we're if we weren't gay,
would be like a regular family. Like if I was
just a woman, You'll be like, oh, that's just a
regular black family. Like they doing their thing right, Like
what again? See like they just do what they think,
(34:11):
Like it's just a regular family. But everyone's like you,
but you're gay, You're going to hell. I'm like, oh
my god, I'm gay. But you abuse children? Right, And
it's always the ones like you're going to hell? Didn't
you didn't you just get out of prison for smurder?
Didn't you grape somebody?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Like? Man?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
But okay, move up to the lord. I'm pretty sure
I'm good for you. I'm happy for you. But I'm
pretty sure at the pearly gates that doesn't exist. When
we get up there, that don't exist. If we're gonna
go with your little idea man, rape gay, I'm pretty sure.
And if God says looks at me for being gay
(34:51):
and puts me on the same caliber, I don't even
want to be there exactly. I want to be there
so true.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
And I feel like because I was sexually abused, and
I feel like they defend him more than me.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
That's like no, Literally, when I share my story, especially
on Instagram, is the worst. It's like what did you
do to deserve this? Did you hurt their son? It's
like I just told you. These people just beat the
fuck out of me and abused me for no reason,
and it was It gives very much what were you wearing? Like?
It gives very much the same like, oh, you shouldn't
have been there, right. It villainizes the victim when really
(35:28):
we're just victims, right. And I think religion has a
really really it does this good job, like even like oh,
well you deserve that because you know you didn't follow God, right.
And I love how there's like cognitive dissidence with religion too,
because they'll say God sent me to you. But then
if God sends you to me, then why didn't God
(35:49):
help my family? Like God only helps them but hurts
everybody else. And that's really doesn't what makes sense to me? Right,
And this whole idea that like I don't know, I
don't know, I don't I think that religion and adoption
should be separated. It's not going to be, but I
think that they should be required to have some therapy, absolutely,
and some check ins afterwards. And I appreciate you sharing
(36:11):
your story with kinship because a lot of people, even
myself in the beginning, but I've had I've heard so
many of your stories like yours, So now I know
kinship is a better alternative, but it's not full it's
not full proof, and we do need to do check ins,
and we do need to make sure that that just
because their family doesn't mean that it's going to be
a right fit. Yeah, I think that we assume, oh,
their family it's a great fit. No right or like
(36:33):
you say, you had that one on so maybe that
would have been a better fit. They really should do
a better job at looking at what And then she
already had a bunch of fucking kids like.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
She got seven traumatized.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
But it's important for you to be in a position
as you as a therapist, and me to be in
a position as like a lived experience consultant because we
can look at this and be like, hold on, that
may not be a good fit. You got one child
does lost just lost their parents? Right, moms having issues.
She's not going to have enough time to give this
child the individualized attention that this child's going to need
(37:13):
going through the trauma like she just saw her aunt die, babe,
Like this child needs like one on one do we gotta?
We got a family member that grandma where grandma at? Right?
Where grandma at? But did you know did your your
kinship come with a stipend? Do you know if you
gotta if they got a stipend for you at all?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I'm sure they did. And I think about that all
the time, like I feel like should it be paid back?
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Listen, I'm trying to sue my parents for the money
that the state pay them because they didn't use any
of that money. And that's fraud to me, that's fraud.
That's tax money that was supposed to be used for me.
You didn't use any of that money for me, and
then especially they started keeping money after they abandoned me
on the street. So I want, I want my money,
and or you go to jail for fraud because that
(37:58):
it's crazy, it's really crazy. But I'm at a point
in my life where I want so like any amount
of money is not even going to suffice because I
won the game of life, right, like I want. You
and your kids are weird. Ohs, like you've had like
three heart attacks. I'm talking about buying out the mother.
Your children are weird, except for my brother Chris, He's cool.
We love him. The other children are weird because they
(38:20):
are from you, So like weird makes weird. And you know,
like your husband, you'll aging like raisins and like you
got what you got and look at me. I'm fabulous.
I have a wonderful life. I have a beautiful husband
and I get to travel the world and I'm free.
And you can't. You didn't win. Yeah, so you did win.
(38:42):
So no, there's no amount of mine because people like,
don't you want to hold her accountable? I'm like, I
think seeing me be successful, it's the most accountability that
she will ever have.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I think that's beautiful. I think that's so beautiful, and
I feel like that's how I feel too. But like
I feel like at some point I started like trying
to shrink myself a little bit because you know, like
her kids, you know, and I say this with love,
but they're not as successful as I am. So I
would like try to like shrink myself, and she would
(39:10):
like shout her kids out and these accomplishments and all
that they do. But here I am like having a
massive degree, I have a nonprofit now, have all these things,
but I don't get nothing. So I would like try
to shrink myself. But then I like woke up and
smell the coffee and I was like, no, I'm that
girl and I've been through all of this stuff and
I don't have to shrink myself no more. I'm no
(39:30):
longer that child. I'm a grown woman now.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
So yeah, And the thing is the thing is because
you know, I run into that issue not as much
with my adopted family. I don't talk to anything. I'm
excited my brother, he and I are really close. I
run into that with my biological family, which would be
your family, because you know, it's both for you. These people.
Oh you're so uppitty. Oh you think you better? I
don't think I know. And I know this because y'all
don't even have GEDs Ooh, y'all don't even have a
(39:56):
pot to pissen or a window to throw it out of.
You think a four oh one k the number you
can play at the ball and at a gambling place,
you think. And when I talk about kay, you think
I'm talking about what is that that little game that
you haven't at the at the gas station Kinko right like,
And they really do. And it got to a point where,
(40:16):
like my biological brother he's now living with me because
he just got out of prison, and like our family,
no one helps anybody. And I recognize that, and I've
been trying to be the person to kind of like
hell the generational trauma, break that generational gap of wealth,
like wealth gap, but trying to do all of that,
and then they're mad at me for trying to help
our family out, like and it's just so sickening. And
(40:41):
I have an aunt who was a foster parent while
we went through foster care. I remember being in the
social worker's office and her being like, Hey, can you
take the kids your sister's kids. I ain't gonna take
off four of them. I can't do all that. I
have already taken in my brother's son. So then my
social worker says, can you just take the little one
like me, I was the smallest one. And she goes, well,
(41:01):
how much is it? How much? She and they say
it was like I think at that moment, it was
like two thousand. She's like, that's not enough. I'm gonna
have that's not enough a month plus food stemps. Plus
I was in school, so it's not like you need
a daycare. I was already seven eight years old, like
and then so she didn't she she didn't take us in.
You know, I had my lift experience. My siblings had
their lift experience. My cousin that she did adopt. The
(41:23):
lord works in mysterious ways. This person because they're trans
now and an out of trouble and out of hospitals,
like driving her insane. She just had to do mouth
to mouth because he was like overdosing on finnol. It's
like just she's like seventy though, like she's like way
too old to be dealing with this. Yeah, and she
and she calls me and she complains like all the time, like,
(41:43):
oh my god, your cousin, he's almost forty. He won't
get it together. And the facetious part of me was like,
this is God rewarding you, m this is God rewarding
you for literally leaving your sister's children and care and
just asking because it's not like she's have space. She
had the space, she had a big house, she had room.
(42:03):
I know, it's a lot to ask, but your our
aunt elfish, you're selfish. So then like she's older now
and she's seventy, and she's just like no one in
the family talks to her. I'm the only one that
still kind of chats a little bit here and there.
None of my siblings even speak to her. I'm the
only one. And she calls me and complains about my
cousin in one day, it was a couple of weeks ago.
She was just complaining about, like he's problematic. Again. I said, well,
(42:25):
first of all, AUNTI he's an adult, so like I
understand that your son and you adopted him, but like
he's an adult. And I said, secondly, I said, you
want to be going through any of this had you
chosen some of your other's nieces and nephews or I
could have help you with them, but I didn't feel
oblicated to help you. You didn't help me, so why
would I help you? Of course I have resources for
my cousin. Of course there are things that I could
(42:47):
do that help my cousin and help you, But why
would I? How much? You see how that just came
full circle? Look, you need to help your cousin? How much?
How much? Because that's what you asked when I needed help?
How much do you have to give me to help him? Right?
And I just think it's it's really hard to have
(43:09):
a birth to be the odd person out of your
birth family when you didn't even ask none of this.
I didn't you went and got adopted? How the fuck
did I go and get it? So what I was
Matilda walking around with an adoption paper in my pocket? Bitch?
And speaking of Matia, you know how life had to
be bad because she had that adoption paper on ready,
she said she here sign here? Right? So I do
(43:37):
think that you know, reunification with kinship adoption could that
has to be hard? And like also those are your
daughter's folks, so like that also has to be hard
to be like, you know, your aunt uncle, did you
share any of your experience with your daughter about how
they treated you or you don't really let her know.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
She knows some of it, but I try not to
let my children go around them because like, if you
don't like me, you don't like my kids. So and
she also would get treated differently by them, and so
I was like, no, I mean, you have.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
The lived experience they talked about yo, mama like adult,
so imagine well how they going to speak about you
in front of your children.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
And I'm just I'm just you know, I removed because
she she ended up getting her day care back and
so my kids were going there. At first, I thought
that that's the only thing and blah blah blah, you know,
and then my my aunt was like, you don't have
to deal with them anymore. You're an adult, you don't
have to. So I saw, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Well that's the most power empowering thing for me, especially
as a person who deals with trauma and abandonment, is
that like, I don't have to be scared anymore. I
don't have to deal with any of that anymore. Actually
I don't have to, honestly. And then my so my friend,
My best friend's in it. She's kind of she goes
a little bit radical with that. I love her because
she has this care free she doesn't give funed out nothing,
(45:03):
Like she's like, I just don't care. Like she pays
her reels and stuff, but like but like barely. It's
not that she can't, it's just she just just doesn't care.
Like she's just gonna go to Guatemala, but rent due
next week. She's like, I'll worry about it when I
get back, right. And she's so carefree and she has
she's like Carlos, it's so freeing in life. And it's
almost dangerous when you realize that you don't have to
do shit as an adult. Literally shit. You don't have
(45:27):
to You don't got to get up, you know. If
you refuse to do things, certain luxuries go away, like
a home, you know, like stability. But do you have
to do You don't have to do anything. Everything that
we do after the age of eighteen is a choice, right,
and that includes the people that we surround ourselves with. Yeah,
that's such a choice. Yeah, And it's insanity for you
(45:49):
to choose to have some people around you that are
causing you to be insane.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
You are, so, you know, and I end up putting
my mom off, So I'm just like, aren't cut this
woman off?
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Then cut So you know what that you know what
that is, you know what that connection is. It's called
the fog. Are you familiar with the fog? I'm not
the adoption So the adoption fog stands for fear, obligation,
and guilt. It's an acronym. As adoptees, we've been told,
not only by our adoptive parents, but also by society,
be grateful. Your mama was a crackhead. You could have
(46:21):
been blah blah blah blah dah right, and you got
a better life, regardless if it was perfect or not.
We've all and we feel that too, like especially those
of us who really do have, Like our mamas were
all some shit, Like I wrote about that in my
first book, Like my family wasn't perfect, Like I should
have been removed, Like it was good that we were removed. Now,
should we've she gotten resources? Yes, they should have gave
(46:43):
her resources instead of just like removing her children and
causing more trauma. So we can approve that. But fear.
The fear is the fear of abandonment, right, So the
fear of no one wanting you, and it actually is
worse for adoptees whose birth parents have died later on
in life because we really ain't got nobody right. So
like for me, my birth mom is dead now too,
so part of my mind is like, maybe I should
(47:04):
reconnect with my adopted family because that fear of being alone,
because what, bitch you, We are alone right now. You
was alone when they left Joe ass on the street
at fifteen. You was alone when you were in their
house because you were emotionally alone. Just because they were
physically there does not mean that you were. You were
physically or emotionally of taking care of you were. So
this fear of being alone obligation. We feel obligated because
(47:27):
you know you did, I would I would have had
a worse life. I don't know what would have happened
to me. You know, I got fed barely, but I'm here,
so I feel obligated that at least you did your
bare minimum of keeping me alive, which is also a
trauma response because bare minimum of like feeling obligated that
someone fed you is insane.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
That's fact, because that's literally how I feel I'm just like,
well if I don't, well.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
They did feed me. The bar is in hell, the
bar for for for self love and say, well they
did feed me. Yeah, you were a child and they
agreed to feed you. That's a bare necessity. So then
that's that's the obligation, Like we feel obligated to them
even though we don't need to. It's just human. They say, like,
(48:14):
I could have been worse off. So then that guilt.
That's where a lot of adoptees really start to unpack
their adoption fog and their trauma. Because the guilt, you're
gonna feel guilt for a couple of things. You're gonna
feel guilt for feeling how you feel and being like
fuck this this was wrong, So you feel guilty for that.
You then feel guilty for feeling fear and obligated because
(48:37):
now you're feeling guilty for yourself, like why the fuck
did I let these people guilt me to this one?
So now you're like feeling guilty that you didn't give
yourself the opportunity to feel that guilt before. Right, and
then lastly, when you decide to make that whatever decision
that it might be, where they're like I'm just cutting
you off forever. Like for me, that's with my adoptive family.
I feel guilty to not only well, I don't have
(48:58):
any children, but like my nieces and nephews my family,
I feel guilty that they'll never I cut them off too.
So that guilt does come up, But it's part of
the fog that it's okay because no matter what, your
adoptive parents should have been helping you through all of this,
and the fog should have never been created. But because
adoption is, it's so beautiful and everything's so great, we
(49:20):
have these blinders on. Right, So this is why how
I describe the adoption fog. You're going through your adoption
with your headlights on. Right, You're driving down the street
with head lights on. You're just focused on getting to
your destination. You're going through with your headlights. You think
you can see. But then it starts getting foggy, emotions
start coming up. What most people do when it starts
getting foggy, they turn off the bright lights. They turn
(49:41):
on them fog lights, right, so we can see clearer.
That's not what adoption does. They turn on the high beams.
And have you ever turned on your high beams and
fog and tried to.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
See anything, see nothing.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
You can't see nothing. You can't see nothing. So a
lot of people are high beaming. Is optees and adopted
parents are high beaming their way through adoption. And then
once the child gets old enough where they're driving and
they like, hey, there's a knob over here that says
for fall, Like, let me turn this song. So you
turn the knob and now you can see everything clearly.
You're like, it's still a little foggy, but it's clearer now,
(50:17):
and now you can navigate your car through that fall.
But you just needed the right tool. You just needed
to click click the right setting. You didn't have it
on the right setting right. And if that setting would
have got clicked years ago when the adoption started, you
wouldn't have had to travel so far. And all that
fall is barely seeing your way through. That's what the
adoption fog is.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
That's so beautiful. I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yes, And it's an ongoing process, and like it's just
like everything, it's never you're never going to fully heal
from ever anything in life. It's always learning how to
navigate the trauma and navigate the emotions. People always ask me, like,
how do you how did you steal? How did you
get through it? I didn't. I learned how to double dutch,
like I learned how to hopscotch double dutch. I learned
(51:05):
how to just roll with the like, roll with the
flow and go with the punches and make the best
out of everything. But isn't that who we are as
black folks anyways? Like, that's who we are as black
folks anyways, making something out of nothing, turning a dollar
into fifteen cents. And I turned and I turned trauma
into my triumph and we all can, you all can.
So I appreciate you sharing your story. And Chantelle, I
(51:28):
always ask all the guests to give one piece of
advice for children who would be in their shoes. So,
what's one piece of advice you would give a kinship
kid who's living with an honor and uncle. What's one
piece of advice you would give them that you learn
from your lifting story?
Speaker 2 (51:43):
And I think for me, just resilience is key. I
feel like that's really and it sucks. I don't even
have to say that, but that's just the reality. Some
people are in messed up situations. And I think just
holding on too resilience and looking down that tunnel and
seeing that little speck of light and just keep going
because you'll get there. You'll get there.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Yeah, And then you know, honestly looking at the statistics,
that's all you can do is hold on to that
little light. And I say, that's why my slogan it's
always shine your light, because if I'm shining, and if
I continue to shine, somebody will see me, even in
a dark room, Even in the darkness of room, if
one light is shining someone, they'll draw. You'll draw people
to you, right, or you might be able to guide
(52:24):
someone out right, if you've already found your way out
and you're still shining light about the issue, you can
guide them to the exit. Right. So I really I
agree with you. I love how you said that stay resistant,
resistance and stay stay the course. And I think another
thing is believing yourself, because I'll be honest, ain't nobody
in this world going to believe in you. Let's be real.
Sounds like real dark, but like honestly, no one's really
(52:47):
going to believe in you, and no one's going to
have your back better than you have your bad. So
have your own back and be real. But thank you
Chantelle for being here, thank you for sharing your experience,
and I really really appreciate you being on the podcast
and light Shiners. As always, please continue to share these
stories of LIFT experience. Please continue to shine the light
on the dark truth of the systems of external childcare,
(53:09):
and like always, like I say every week, always shine light.
We'll see you guys next time.
Content warning. The Wards of the State podcast may contain
material that may be harmful or traumatizing to some audiences.
Listener discretion is advised. Heylight Shiners, Welcome back to another
(00:37):
amazing episode of Ward of the State. I know, guys,
it's kind of a tongue twister because I've been selling
my book Ward of the State, and it was great
marketing for me to market all of this the same.
But it gets really confusing when I'm speaking of the book,
which is Ward of the State, and then I speak
of the podcast, which is Wards of the State. I
put that s on there. But no, guys, we're welcoming
back another episode. We are almost to one hundred eisodes, y'all.
(01:00):
That's one hundred different lived experiences. There's been so many,
so so so many. I was actually just doing a
lift experience consultation yesterday with an adopted parent, and y'all know,
I'm using y'all episodes as a resource because some of
y'all stories are really resourceful when it comes to what
your parents did good and what your parents did bad
or what they could have improved on. So this podcast
(01:23):
in itself and you guys sharing your stories is a
resource for adoptive and foster parents and children who've been
adopted or have been through the child welfare system so
they don't feel like they're alone. I get a lot
of dms from people saying, like Carlo's episode so and
so made me feel like I was actually heard because
that's the first time I've heard someone go through a
similar experience. So if you are wanting to share your story, guys,
(01:43):
there is a link at the end or in the
boy of all my social media, and it also be
in the show notes here on the podcast episode for
you to share your story if you've been adopted, or
if you've been in foster care or in kinship or
any other type of external childcare. Because sharing our stories
or how weeks create change, and creating dialogue creates change,
and sharing dialogue creates change. So I want to appreciate
(02:04):
everyone who's done so so far and share their stories.
I want to encourage you who haven't to shine up
through the link. And I also want to thank all
the listeners for listening every week. I know we haven't
been doing weekly out because honestly, it's been slowing down.
I've been doing a lot of work in person. I
had a change. We changed our company from a media
company to a management company, so now we're also managing
(02:24):
properties and media and we're doing we're managing other authors,
so I'm doing a whole lot more, so you guys
will see less and less of me advocating. I know
you guys are really used to me being an advocate online.
I've set my schedule back to you know, nine to
two on TikTok. But as far as the podcast, guys,
I'm going to push them out as long as I can,
but I can only do what people sign up. So
(02:47):
I think the last three months we've had two a month,
which is pretty good. I would like to do on
one a week for you guys, but I can only
get the stories out as quickly as people share them.
So if you know somebody they would like to share
their experience, please encourage them to do so. The listener.
Thank you all for y'all SKIN team support and patients
as we navigate this new growth period for the organization
and our company here at Dealer Management. One last thing,
(03:10):
make sure you guys are leaving a one, two, three, four,
five star rating review as well, and also make sure
that you are subscribing to us on Spotify, and like
I said earlier, you guys can watch the video episodes
on YouTube. The video episodes are available on YouTube because
I know some of you guys enjoy us seeing our
beautiful faces. So without that, without any other announcement, we
are going to introduce the next guest of the show,
(03:30):
a chantelle. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Hey, I'm doing good. How are you?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I am blessed and highly favored, So thank you so
much for coming on the wards of this day podcast.
And let's just kind of start off to your on
your personal lived experience. Are your kinship adopted? Correct?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So? I initially was going to be adopted by an
aunt when I was like three years old, but she
passed away like a day before the adoption, and then
I went back into custody, state custody, and then my
aunt uncle adopted me.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Awesome. So how old were you when you're at an
uncle adopted you?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So they got me when I was around like four,
but the adoption was finalized when I was in like
second grade, so it took a little while.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Okay, And how was your experience growing up with your
your aunts and uncle?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh my gosh, terrible. No, I mean, I will say
that it was more stable because like they provided me
the basics like clothes, food, shelter, stuff like that. But
I feel like the love peace was not there, and
I do feel like abuse started to come and to
(04:40):
play because they had this like odd belief that the
worst of behavior the worst like the object that they
would use to like spank you with. So I was
considered the rebellious child, so I often got whooped with
like very thick extension cords.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Wow, that's crazy. Were you then? Do you have any
biological siblings?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
M hm, so I have four, well, three brothers. It's
four kids, and you know, including myself. But my brother
and I were closer in age, so we were adopted
into this family of like seven. And then my other
two brothers came like after us, and they weren't adopted.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And they weren't adopted. Did they live with you guys,
your younger two brothers. Did they live with the aunt
and uncle or no?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
They did not. They stayed with my mom unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Okay, so how was growing up? Like you said, there
was a little bit of abuse, but how was growing up?
Did they treat their children any differently than you guys?
Because you guys are still cousins.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So yeah, so sure we were still family, but I
definitely noticed a like difference in how I was treated.
I was often blamed for like things happening in the
house or like you know, like sibling fights happened, and
it was always like put off on me. They also,
I wouldn't necessarily say my adopted my adopted dad, which
(05:58):
was my uncle, he didn't put too much blame on me,
but he also didn't speak up for me either, like
advocate for me when he's seen what his wife, you know,
would do to me. And so there was an instincts
of where me and my adopted sister had got into
this big fight over like shoes or something, and so
she started throwing shoes at me, and you know, so
(06:20):
we got into this big fight, and so her daughter
like runs to her and it's like crying like, oh,
Chantel did this, and she like holds her daughter. And
then so my adopted dad comes out and he's like,
what's going on, what's going on? And she was like
Chantel And so like everybody in the house is just like,
you know, everybody in the house was just kind of
(06:42):
pending things on me. It was like, oh, Shantell's fat,
Shantell's fault. So I ended up getting a spinking with
like an extension quarter or something, and then she I think,
she just I don't. I don't even remember what happened,
to be honest, I just remember what happened to me.
So I just feel like their expectation of me was
(07:02):
just already low because they looked at my mom as
like this terrible person because she was like on drugs
and so like even now, like my adopted parents would
say things like, oh, we thought you were going to
turn out like your mom, and so it was just
it's very disappointing because I'm just like you guys, really
they really did think low of me, to be honest,
(07:24):
and it's just something I'm still working through, like in therapy. Obviously,
I'm still bothered by it.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
But no, it's and it's okay, and it's natural to
cry and it's natural to have emotions. You know, this
is a safe space. But you know, this is something
that needs to be heard because a lot of people think,
you know, kinship is always our first alternative when it
comes to adoption. Everyone says, like, what should be the
first alternative? And I always go to kinship, because we
do know that children do tend to do better. But
(07:52):
these experiences in kinship need to be spoken of as well,
because it's not always they like, it's not always a
safe alternative. And then that way we need to look
at the other alternatives like fictive kinship or guardianship, because
not all families are going to be a safe place
for their family member. So I really appreciate you being
vulnerable and sharing. Now did the kid It sounds like
(08:13):
the other kids kind of took advantage of you being
like the scapegoat of everything.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Absolutely, they knew that they could throw everything off on
chantel if something happened, if they say chantel, then it
was always was always me and then my voice was
never heard like in these like disagreements or you know,
conflicts or whatever. And yes, was I a rambunctious child, yes,
(08:37):
but I also had a lot of trauma. And I
felt like in our community we don't really we always
deem things as like bad or like a spirit because
like I was raised in, it was very Pentecostal Christian
helpful too, So they didn't believe in life therapy, didn't
believe any of that. They just believed that if they
(08:59):
spanked me hard then I would behave which obviously that's
not gonna work. So I remember being punished for like
like a year or two. She pulled me out of
school when I was in eighth grade and I missed
like two years of school because I was homeschool. Go figure.
I was not. I would do like little activities, but
for the most part I was just kind of like
(09:19):
providing support for her in her daycare because she needed
like an extra person. So yeah, so I was out
of school for like for two years, and then I
was also grounded. I wasn't allowed to go outside. I
remember one time, like my friend came by to like
say hi or something. It was like a neighborhood friend,
and like I had peeked opened the like screen door
(09:39):
and was like hi, and she found out I did that,
and I got a spank in for doing that. So
it was it was very It was a very abusive household.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
What other types of abuse did you, Like, was she
physically abusive when you weren't getting punished?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Can you repeat that I'm sorry?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So like like so it sounds like there were spankings
like as a consequent of actions. Was there just abuse,
just like was there days when she would just come
home and disabuse people.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
There were days where she would just be very like
upset with me. I wouldn't say that she like abused
me like outside of like discipline, if that makes sense,
but I will say there were days where she was
just rude to me and not like her other kids.
I remember she had thought that I had said I
(10:28):
hate you. We were like talking and I was just like, well,
I really want to go outside, I want to see
my friends. And I don't even know how she thought
that I said I hate you. All I know is
that she was triggered by me just being a teenage girl,
you know, advocating for myself, and she picked up an
ascension cord and just started hitting me over and over
like and it hit me right in this eye right here,
(10:50):
if you can see, I still have like a little
damage here, which is why it's darker. And I just
remember feeling like this shooting pain go down my face.
I went to try to run out of the house
or whatever, and she grabbed me and kind of threw
me back, and then she realized what she did and
she just she stumped, and so I was crying, and
(11:13):
when I saw my face because I felt it, but
I didn't see it. So when I went in the
bathroom and see my face, I started freaking out and
I was just like, we need to go to the hospital.
We need to go to the hospital. She did not
take me.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Ooh, she's still alive. She did because she needs I
need to run these hands. I need to run these hands.
So you said that your uncle, your adopted father, didn't
really abuse that much when he turned the blind eye,
and that seems to be a pattern that happens with
adoptive parents. That's my experience as well. I can't say
that my adoptive father was completely innocent, but I will
(11:45):
say that he wasn't responsible for the majority of the abuse.
It was his wife. But as I get older and
as I unpacked, you know what happened to me and
I'm a man now at his age where he adopted me,
I was like, sir, what were you doing? Like you
have you're the man of the house. And my parents
are also like traditionally Catholic, so like the whole like
man of the house thing, So you could have told
(12:07):
your wife to stop, but you didn't, right, And I
think a lot of the I think some parents, especially relationships,
I think like they are afraid of their partners, right,
Like there's there's there are spousal abuse going on there
too that as kids, like we really can't see, but
there's that that that diaspora, you know, that experience, right,
they could be going through that as well, especially with
(12:28):
an abusive personality. Did they did she abuse any of
your other siblings or were like, was that just something
that she did to all of you guys? And you
just got the worst of it.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
From my memory and from my perspective, I don't recall
them getting like serious punishments like like I got. It
was I either I never got whooped with a like belt.
I was either an extension cord or sometimes like a
switch from a tree. They would like tell me to
go pick a switch or something like that.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
And now did your biological brother who you got adopted with,
did they treat him like they treated you? Or did
he get treated differently?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
He got treated a little bit better than me, But
I feel like it's because he kind of conformed to
like their the way they were, and I was kind
of I was like very radical, very opinionated, very you know,
and they didn't like that because I was Pentecostal. You're
not supposed to do that.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Mm hmmmmmm. So during this time, did you because okay,
because you said your your mom was working on with
through addiction, did you guys have any relationship with your
mom or did you see your mom like family gatherings
or anything.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah? Sometimes, but yes, So I did see my mom
and she was coming around like a little bit, and
then she just like stopped coming. But I don't really
know why she stopped. I feel like I honestly, I
don't know, but my opinion, I feel like she stopped
because maybe it was something between her and my adopted
(13:56):
mom because I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
But you had the chance to talk to her as
an adult. You're a biological mom.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, but she passed away back in twenty twenty one,
and you, like, our relationship was very like weird because
I feel like growing up, I was kind of taught
to like despise her in a sense because it's just like, oh,
she's an addic, she's this, she's said, you know so,
(14:26):
and then I feel like they put it instilled in me,
don't be like your mom, don't be like your mom.
Don't be like your mom like so much to the
point where I started to like not like her in
a sense because I felt like she was this bad person.
She was going to go to hell again, the Pentecostal thing.
And so yeah, I will say kind of jumping back
on your point of like kinship adoptions and how they
(14:47):
can be good. Like my aunt Louise, who passed away
when I was three. She was amazing. She was amazing.
I don't know how I remember this, probably because it
was a dramatic time, but she was amazing and I
that I would have gotten adopted by her, but you know,
things happened.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, we can't. We can't change that. We don't have
a little crystal ball. Right. Yeah, so you're growing up?
Did you? How was how was I getting through high school?
Did your parents support you through high school? I know
that you said that you had from eighth grade to
like ninth grade, you didn't do school, But how was
graduating high school and getting on your feed and becoming adult?
How was that experience for you? That was rough?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Okay, So I didn't go back to school until what
was supposed to be my sophomore year, but because there
was no like homeschool type structure. I had to like
be flunked to like ninth grade. I would have been
I would have had to repeat eighth grade because I
didn't finish, but because of my age, they let me
go to ninth grade. So high school was very interesting.
(15:50):
I will say that, like once I got in high school,
I was confined to this house for years, couldn't do anything,
no outside contact, no nothing. So when I finally got
into high I feel like I kind of just exploded
a little bit. I you know again, like I didn't
have any guidance. I was just kind of doing my
own thing. I'm like, oh, I need to spend time
with my friends. I don't get to spend time with
(16:12):
my friends outside of school, so let me like skip
school and like go to their house or whatever, because
like their parents are like, let me go do this.
And you know, so, I definitely feel like I got
on like the wrong foot in high schools.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
But no, that's understandable because you know, you have been
so restricted with everything for so long, So it's definitely
understandable to you know, go buck Wold a little bit.
When you do get a little bit of freedom. Yeah,
when you were in high school, did you have like,
did you have jobs? If you did have a job,
did your parents make you pay for anything in the house?
Like how was that experience?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
No, I did not have. So I did have a job,
but I didn't. So when I was sixteen, I think
I was sixteen, I was I started becoming like sexually active,
and my adopted mom kind of found out that I
was a sexual actor. So I was like, well, she knows,
so let me go to her and just ask her
to put me on like some form of contraceptive. And
so I asked her like, hey, like, you know, can
(17:10):
you put me on perfont trol because I'm sexually active?
And she was just like, now if you're what does
she say something along the lines of doing the devil's work,
then that's between you and God or something like that.
So I got pregnant, to say the least, at sixteen,
and uh yeah, So I got pregnant at sixteen, and
at that point I did start working because I was like, well,
(17:32):
I need to like get a job. So I ended
up like dropping out of high school and she ended
up putting me in a group home. Yeah, when I
was like pregnant, I was sixteen. Yeah, so yeah, I
stayed in a group home until I had my baby,
and they try to, like, honestly, they try to get
me to put her up for adoption. But that's another story.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, they only they see a young sixteen year old girl. Yeah,
they're they're going to try. But you kept your child.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I did? I did?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And how was that? Like? Did you after the hospital?
Did you get any support from your adoptive parents raising her?
Or no?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Oh no I didn't. I feel like the most support
I got was in the group home when it came
to like raising her, even though they.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Left you in a group home with your baby.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Well, I'm getting to that. So they left me in
the group basically. And then my daughter's dad passed away
while I was pregnant, and so I was trying to
like go back home, and so I went. She was
just like, no, you need to stay there. You need
to let them help you because I was the problem.
And so I was just like, Okay, well, I guess
(18:39):
that I'm here. And so I ended up finishing the
group home's program. So I had to go back home
at this point, and so I went back home. This
is after I have had my baby.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
By the way, So where was the baby the whole
time you're finishing the program?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
It was with me. They had this mother baby program
that they put me in. Yeah, okay, yeah, so I
mean it was nice. It was nice. But so anyways,
I go back and live with my adopted mom. My
adopted mom is not happy. She's like I don't want
her back here. She's not ready, she doesn't belong here.
And I'm like actively telling her like, hey, like I
(19:15):
want to, you know, start college. I want to get
back in high school to like finish because I knew
that I had to do something because I had a
child at this point. And she was just like, that's
between you and your college, like not very helpful at all.
But meanwhile, like I'm seeing her daughters like come and
like she's like trying to enroll them in college, you know,
trying to do these tours with them and like all
(19:36):
this stuff. But I have to figure it out by myself.
She wasn't helpful. So one day police officers came to
the house and they were like, hey, you need to come.
What else did you say you wanted to kill your
your daughter? My daughter's three months at the time. I
didn't mind you. I did not say any of this,
so I'm just like, where is this coming from? And
so I was like, no, but being seventeen, you don't
(19:57):
really have much say, so so I had to go
with them. They took me to a psychiatric hospital and
so they end up putting me impatient there because they
said that I was depressed. So I stay in this
hospital for like maybe a week or two or whatever.
My adopted man has my baby, and then it was
(20:18):
time for me to discharge. I think that's what it's called.
And so an attorney called me and said, hey, Shantel,
we just got out of court, you know, with your
adopted mom, and she's legally abandoning you. So I was like, what,
Like can you imagine being abandoned in a pychiatric hospital?
Like what.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Put me back so much to put on a seventeen
year old who just had a baby. So how does
she go about legally abandoning you? Like she just went
to the court and side I don't want her.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
She honestly don't even know I think I honestly don't
even know me.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
You can you can go you can go to the
court and say I don't want I give up my
rights and I don't want my child. They usually don't
allow you to do that. There's some charges, but if
you're seventeen you have a baby, they'll probably be like, okay, well.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
You know, well she ended up losing her daycare because.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, because you can't. You can't abandon children and think
you're gonna keep a daycare. That was like my mother,
she abandoned me and then started talking about it on
or like on TikTok and she was a teacher and
lost her teaching license. You're stupid, ma'am, Like, you can't
admit to abandoning a child and then think you're going
to be allowed around other people's children. So so they
(21:32):
you get this call from this attorney and what happens
after that?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Okay, So I was like where am I gonna live?
Like I'm trying to figure out, like what is going
to happen? And so she was just like, well, DHS
is involved. Now they're gonna come get you and blah
blah blah.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
What about your baby?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Well she had, you know, she had her. At this point,
I remember packing my stuff in a black trash bag
and you know, walking down the hall and waiting on
DHS to come and they're like, Hi, you know where
you're gonna be with us? Blah blah blah. And they
end up taking me to this children shelter in Oklahoma.
(22:11):
So I stayed in that children's shelter for a little
while and then like maybe a couple of days later,
they brought my baby there and there's like another part
of the shelter where look like babies were, so they
had her saying in that and I would like go
over there like every day to see my daughter.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I love that. So were you able to when you
turn eighteen? Like did they give you any resources to
help you with high school?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
How did that process work? And then were you able
to get out with your daughter?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah? So they end up requiring me to like take
parenting classes and like a bunch of other stuff, And
you know, I did what I had to do. And
what I will say is that DHS does suck. But
when it came to funding my education, they were amazing.
They gave me so many resources. They paid up to
(22:57):
my bachelor's degree.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I tell people all the time, like, you shouldn't be
afraid of DHS if you have nothing to be afraid of,
Like if you honestly have not done anything wrong, and
you're just like a young impoverished person ask them for help, Like,
they really do have a lot of resources for you. Yeah,
but the issue is it's people who are like, I
ain't done nothing. They beating the funk out their kids.
Of course they're not like like, if you truly have
not done anything wrong, call them and say I need help,
(23:21):
I need some resources. They have a bunch. They do
have a bunch. They really So they helped you with
get finish high school, get through college fund that did
they give you any funding for like childcare? I'm sure
that they held they help you with childcare as well.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Mm hm. And they gave me when I moved out
on my own, they would pay my rent every month.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So you were were you in an extended foster care
program then? Technically in Oklahoma? So yeah, because that sounds
like extended foster care where you because once your mom
released you back into like once she abandoned, you became
a ward of the state technically again yeah, and that's
why that's how DHS can give you all of those
resources and then ye, then after eighteen you can go
(24:02):
into what they call extended foster care, which means they'll
cover you to twenty one or twenty six, and they
help pay for rent, they help you with college, they
help you with food Stamp, they help you with everything, yeah,
even your child. So that's amazing that you took advantage
of that.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I did. I did thankfully my older cousin. You know
how you have like older cousins, but they're like an aunt,
so you call them auntie. I don't know, that might
be like a black family thing.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, but my.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Older cousin end up finding out that I was in
the shelter and so she let me live with her,
like maybe a couple of months until living in the shelter,
and so me and my daughter, you know, we live
with her for a little while. Uh. So that was
that was really I really appreciate her for that. And
then on top of like having VHS helped me with
you know, different types of funding and then moving out
(24:49):
on my own when I was nineteen and then paying
my rent stuff allowed me to be this full time
college student and work part time so that I can,
you know, get to where I am now now I
have my master's in relations Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Congratulations. Look, we love a story. We love a good
triumphant story. I love that. I love love love that.
I love that you went into a career field that
you know, gave back to what you need it the most.
And I have a saying like, be the adult that
you needed when you were a child, right, And a
lot of us just need adults like ourselves who are
going to go back and say I'm going to stand
(25:25):
up and I'm going to speak up. So how old
is your daughter now?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
She's about to be fourteen, she's.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You're oh my god, that's such a I have my
niece for a year and it was a fun age,
but that age is difficult too. And so the boys,
the boys, it's not even the boys, it's her. I
was just like, girl, it's calm down. But no, that's amazing.
That's so amazing. So how is your relationship? Is there
any relationship with your adoptive parents now? Or they're your family?
So I mean, I'm sure you see them at events
(25:52):
and stuff, So how does that work out?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So we do have a relationship, but it's kind of weird.
It's one of those things where a lot of people,
like you know that all this abuse has happened, and
then you just kind of like you know, and I
will say, like her and her and I had set
down and had a conversation a couple of months ago,
and she apologized in a way. But what I realized
(26:20):
is that like it was kind of like an indirect apology,
if that makes sense, Like I can tell that she
does have some type of like you know, remorse, is
that the right word. But still I don't think she
still treats me differently than her kids. So I just
have to tell myself, like, if I'm going to deal
with her, then you know, this is just what it is.
(26:42):
And I don't I think it's the level of and
I don't know why I deal with her, but I
think it's the level of just one an acceptance from
you know, from like a mother figure, because like I
feel like here I am was supposed to be given
another opportunity at having like parents and then and then
happened the way it should have.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
So there and and a lot of people when I
speak about my abandonment issues, a lot of people say, like,
why do you still call your mom? After everything I've
heard about what she did to you? Why do you
still call her your mom? I'm like, because she's still
my mom regardless of the abuse. Legally, she's still my mom,
right emotionally, she's still my mother. That's the person who
I was told was gonna give me a forever home
(27:22):
and a different opportunity in life. Right, Yeah, it does
feel a little bit different when you were a child
and you're like I was supposed to get something that
I didn't get, and then to have those conversations with
them as adults now you are other siblings. She said
that she still treats them differently. Did they all go
and graduate college and do great things with their lives? No, No,
(27:42):
they never do. They never do. They never do. That's
why I asked that it's always the one kid who
was a problem child, and who's the one that they
treated like shit that actually picks themselves up and be something.
And then there's the people that they just gave everything
the world too, and they I don't do anything with it.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
It's just like, you know, what's so funny is one
of my adopted sisters. I don't know. They were just
so mean to me, and I don't know why looking
back on it, and I don't know why I went
around them as much as I did. But I think
it's just the acceptance, giz. But I remember we were
having a conversation about like just school and stuff, and
I was just like I was learning like so much
and not you know, like when you're in school and
you're learning stuff or just learning in general, you don't
(28:23):
have to be in school. You want to share those
things with people, right, And I was like nineteen, so
I wanted to share these things. And they were just like,
anybody can go to school and the only reason why
I'm not in school is because you have these white
people helping you. And I'm just like, you know why
these white people are helping me because your.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Mom abandoned me. Check me. That was so funny, because
thank you for abandoning me, because now I have help.
Like that's crazy. So now they mad that you got abandon.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
You. I signed you up for Oklahoma Promise and financial aid,
you didn't finish college on your own. Had nothing to
do with me.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
So m mmmm, it's always that. That is always how
it goes. So Chantelle's is something that we wanted to address.
Also on the podcast was adoptive families needing therapy. Do
you think that intense therapy should be a requirement for
all adoptive families before they adopt and even after they adopt.
What is your your.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I feel I really feel like it should be a
requirement for like while they're going through the adoption process,
therapy needs to be had, like individual therapy and family therapy,
especially because this is like traumatic mm hmmm, not only
for like the other kids coming in, but especially like
for for me, Like my aunt Louise had just dropped
(29:45):
that in front of me. I witnessed that, and then
I get put in foster care and then into another placement,
like I should have.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Had therapy, absolutely, And the right type of therapy is
also important because you know, my parents didy put me
in therapy, but it was the wrong type and that
even dad even more harm, you know, So I always
tell people the right type of therapy is also really
really important. What do you use? What parts of your
lived experience do you using your practice?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I think just remembering, like as a therapist that all
behavior is a sign of communication. And I get a
lot of parents that are saying, oh, this kid is bad,
and it's kind of like a trigger word for me
because I'm just because that's what I was called all
the time, and I'm just like, no, like, they're not bad.
What are they trying to communicate with you? What are
they trying to tell you? And so when I have
like individual therapy sessions with my clients, they'll tell me like, hey,
(30:34):
this is what I'm feeling. I'm doing this because XYZ
and so we end up coming together, you know, during
family therapy, moms crying, Kiddle's clock crying, and you know,
change can be made, you know with that. But I
always tell parents like, no, they're not bad, They're communicating
and this is how they know how to communicate.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Absolutely, And I think that is really important for adults
to realize that, especially with the kids who've been through trauma,
that there's no book on regular life. There definitely isn't
how to on how to navigate trauma. And if you
have a child that has experienced trauma, that behavior is
going to come out in different ways. What I tell
clients a lot is if you have a child that
(31:14):
has experienced trauma and they are not showing any signs,
that's the one I want to look out for, because
you have a like a teapot and it's going to
be just a random situation or a random day and
that child's going it's going to make a decision that
changed their entire life. I was talking to this one
adoptive mom the other week, and she was saying how
(31:35):
she didn't believe about adoption trauma. She didn't think that
her son had any issues. They gave him the world.
He was a great kid, but mad at the world.
But she knew. But she just kept throwing money and
throwing degrees and stuff at the issue and never addressing
what his actual problem was. And he got married and
up unliving his wife like two weeks after they got
married because he didn't know how to emotionally navigate. He
(31:56):
didn't know how to emotionally communicate. And I tell people
all the time it's really important with your adoptee too,
even if they're not showing any signs of you know,
adoption depression or attachment issues, still address it because we
already know the statistics, right, So you may not be
feeling it now, but you will in the future. So
at least give them the tools so if it does
come up, because it will, that they'll be like, oh,
(32:16):
this is what that therapist was talking about, and let
me use some of these tools that I learned there, right.
And I also think that because a lot of adoptions
are so enthralled with religion that I think therapy has
thrown out the window because God got you. If God
got it, why are y'all all crackheads? If Goding had
y'all in a minute. And like, I'm not religious, and
(32:41):
I don't hate people who are religious, but like I
really cannot stand when people weaponize religion over therapy. Like
you can pray about it, go do that, but then
also talk to a human being too, right, Like I'm
not telling you not to give up your religion or
your faith, but what and then I start you and
they'll face with faith without work it's fake. Okay, that
(33:04):
work part was meant to go do a therapist, that's
what they mean. And that if y'all want to use
the book, it says faith without work. Okay, that work
mental health work. Okay, that's what they were talking about.
But you know, they like to pick and shoes, they
love to pick. Oh, guy said that he don't like gays,
but hear you eating pigs feet and some silk and cotton. Okay,
(33:24):
shut up.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Me to hell for being pregnant.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
But I'm like I'm telling you right right, they were
ready seeing you to hell, but they abusing children, right,
That was what iut that without sending throw the first stone,
because all y'all be stoned, right, you be stoned as hell.
I hate that. I was just talking about. I was
just talking to that about to my brother because you know,
(33:48):
I'm gay and I and I have a religious family,
and I'm not even like gay. I'm like gay and
it's like I've been married to the same man for
fifteen years going on, like we're if we weren't gay,
would be like a regular family. Like if I was
just a woman, You'll be like, oh, that's just a
regular black family. Like they doing their thing right, Like
what again? See like they just do what they think,
(34:11):
Like it's just a regular family. But everyone's like you,
but you're gay, You're going to hell. I'm like, oh
my god, I'm gay. But you abuse children? Right, And
it's always the ones like you're going to hell? Didn't
you didn't you just get out of prison for smurder?
Didn't you grape somebody?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Like? Man?
Speaker 1 (34:31):
But okay, move up to the lord. I'm pretty sure
I'm good for you. I'm happy for you. But I'm
pretty sure at the pearly gates that doesn't exist. When
we get up there, that don't exist. If we're gonna
go with your little idea man, rape gay, I'm pretty sure.
And if God says looks at me for being gay
(34:51):
and puts me on the same caliber, I don't even
want to be there exactly. I want to be there
so true.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
And I feel like because I was sexually abused, and
I feel like they defend him more than me.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
That's like no, Literally, when I share my story, especially
on Instagram, is the worst. It's like what did you
do to deserve this? Did you hurt their son? It's
like I just told you. These people just beat the
fuck out of me and abused me for no reason,
and it was It gives very much what were you wearing? Like?
It gives very much the same like, oh, you shouldn't
have been there, right. It villainizes the victim when really
(35:28):
we're just victims, right. And I think religion has a
really really it does this good job, like even like oh,
well you deserve that because you know you didn't follow God, right.
And I love how there's like cognitive dissidence with religion too,
because they'll say God sent me to you. But then
if God sends you to me, then why didn't God
(35:49):
help my family? Like God only helps them but hurts
everybody else. And that's really doesn't what makes sense to me? Right,
And this whole idea that like I don't know, I
don't know, I don't I think that religion and adoption
should be separated. It's not going to be, but I
think that they should be required to have some therapy, absolutely,
and some check ins afterwards. And I appreciate you sharing
(36:11):
your story with kinship because a lot of people, even
myself in the beginning, but I've had I've heard so
many of your stories like yours, So now I know
kinship is a better alternative, but it's not full it's
not full proof, and we do need to do check ins,
and we do need to make sure that that just
because their family doesn't mean that it's going to be
a right fit. Yeah, I think that we assume, oh,
their family it's a great fit. No right or like
(36:33):
you say, you had that one on so maybe that
would have been a better fit. They really should do
a better job at looking at what And then she
already had a bunch of fucking kids like.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
She got seven traumatized.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
But it's important for you to be in a position
as you as a therapist, and me to be in
a position as like a lived experience consultant because we
can look at this and be like, hold on, that
may not be a good fit. You got one child
does lost just lost their parents? Right, moms having issues.
She's not going to have enough time to give this
child the individualized attention that this child's going to need
(37:13):
going through the trauma like she just saw her aunt die, babe,
Like this child needs like one on one do we gotta?
We got a family member that grandma where grandma at? Right?
Where grandma at? But did you know did your your
kinship come with a stipend? Do you know if you
gotta if they got a stipend for you at all?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I'm sure they did. And I think about that all
the time, like I feel like should it be paid back?
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Listen, I'm trying to sue my parents for the money
that the state pay them because they didn't use any
of that money. And that's fraud to me, that's fraud.
That's tax money that was supposed to be used for me.
You didn't use any of that money for me, and
then especially they started keeping money after they abandoned me
on the street. So I want, I want my money,
and or you go to jail for fraud because that
(37:58):
it's crazy, it's really crazy. But I'm at a point
in my life where I want so like any amount
of money is not even going to suffice because I
won the game of life, right, like I want. You
and your kids are weird. Ohs, like you've had like
three heart attacks. I'm talking about buying out the mother.
Your children are weird, except for my brother Chris, He's cool.
We love him. The other children are weird because they
(38:20):
are from you, So like weird makes weird. And you know,
like your husband, you'll aging like raisins and like you
got what you got and look at me. I'm fabulous.
I have a wonderful life. I have a beautiful husband
and I get to travel the world and I'm free.
And you can't. You didn't win. Yeah, so you did win.
(38:42):
So no, there's no amount of mine because people like,
don't you want to hold her accountable? I'm like, I
think seeing me be successful, it's the most accountability that
she will ever have.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I think that's beautiful. I think that's so beautiful, and
I feel like that's how I feel too. But like
I feel like at some point I started like trying
to shrink myself a little bit because you know, like
her kids, you know, and I say this with love,
but they're not as successful as I am. So I
would like try to like shrink myself, and she would
(39:10):
like shout her kids out and these accomplishments and all
that they do. But here I am like having a
massive degree, I have a nonprofit now, have all these things,
but I don't get nothing. So I would like try
to shrink myself. But then I like woke up and
smell the coffee and I was like, no, I'm that
girl and I've been through all of this stuff and
I don't have to shrink myself no more. I'm no
(39:30):
longer that child. I'm a grown woman now.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
So yeah, And the thing is the thing is because
you know, I run into that issue not as much
with my adopted family. I don't talk to anything. I'm
excited my brother, he and I are really close. I
run into that with my biological family, which would be
your family, because you know, it's both for you. These people.
Oh you're so uppitty. Oh you think you better? I
don't think I know. And I know this because y'all
don't even have GEDs Ooh, y'all don't even have a
(39:56):
pot to pissen or a window to throw it out of.
You think a four oh one k the number you
can play at the ball and at a gambling place,
you think. And when I talk about kay, you think
I'm talking about what is that that little game that
you haven't at the at the gas station Kinko right like,
And they really do. And it got to a point where,
(40:16):
like my biological brother he's now living with me because
he just got out of prison, and like our family,
no one helps anybody. And I recognize that, and I've
been trying to be the person to kind of like
hell the generational trauma, break that generational gap of wealth,
like wealth gap, but trying to do all of that,
and then they're mad at me for trying to help
our family out, like and it's just so sickening. And
(40:41):
I have an aunt who was a foster parent while
we went through foster care. I remember being in the
social worker's office and her being like, Hey, can you
take the kids your sister's kids. I ain't gonna take
off four of them. I can't do all that. I
have already taken in my brother's son. So then my
social worker says, can you just take the little one
like me, I was the smallest one. And she goes, well,
(41:01):
how much is it? How much? She and they say
it was like I think at that moment, it was
like two thousand. She's like, that's not enough. I'm gonna
have that's not enough a month plus food stemps. Plus
I was in school, so it's not like you need
a daycare. I was already seven eight years old, like
and then so she didn't she she didn't take us in.
You know, I had my lift experience. My siblings had
their lift experience. My cousin that she did adopt. The
(41:23):
lord works in mysterious ways. This person because they're trans
now and an out of trouble and out of hospitals,
like driving her insane. She just had to do mouth
to mouth because he was like overdosing on finnol. It's
like just she's like seventy though, like she's like way
too old to be dealing with this. Yeah, and she
and she calls me and she complains like all the time, like,
(41:43):
oh my god, your cousin, he's almost forty. He won't
get it together. And the facetious part of me was like,
this is God rewarding you, m this is God rewarding
you for literally leaving your sister's children and care and
just asking because it's not like she's have space. She
had the space, she had a big house, she had room.
(42:03):
I know, it's a lot to ask, but your our
aunt elfish, you're selfish. So then like she's older now
and she's seventy, and she's just like no one in
the family talks to her. I'm the only one that
still kind of chats a little bit here and there.
None of my siblings even speak to her. I'm the
only one. And she calls me and complains about my
cousin in one day, it was a couple of weeks ago.
She was just complaining about, like he's problematic. Again. I said, well,
(42:25):
first of all, AUNTI he's an adult, so like I
understand that your son and you adopted him, but like
he's an adult. And I said, secondly, I said, you
want to be going through any of this had you
chosen some of your other's nieces and nephews or I
could have help you with them, but I didn't feel
oblicated to help you. You didn't help me, so why
would I help you? Of course I have resources for
my cousin. Of course there are things that I could
(42:47):
do that help my cousin and help you, But why
would I? How much? You see how that just came
full circle? Look, you need to help your cousin? How much?
How much? Because that's what you asked when I needed help?
How much do you have to give me to help him? Right?
And I just think it's it's really hard to have
(43:09):
a birth to be the odd person out of your
birth family when you didn't even ask none of this.
I didn't you went and got adopted? How the fuck
did I go and get it? So what I was
Matilda walking around with an adoption paper in my pocket? Bitch?
And speaking of Matia, you know how life had to
be bad because she had that adoption paper on ready,
she said she here sign here? Right? So I do
(43:37):
think that you know, reunification with kinship adoption could that
has to be hard? And like also those are your
daughter's folks, so like that also has to be hard
to be like, you know, your aunt uncle, did you
share any of your experience with your daughter about how
they treated you or you don't really let her know.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
She knows some of it, but I try not to
let my children go around them because like, if you
don't like me, you don't like my kids. So and
she also would get treated differently by them, and so
I was like, no, I mean, you have.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
The lived experience they talked about yo, mama like adult,
so imagine well how they going to speak about you
in front of your children.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
And I'm just I'm just you know, I removed because
she she ended up getting her day care back and
so my kids were going there. At first, I thought
that that's the only thing and blah blah blah, you know,
and then my my aunt was like, you don't have
to deal with them anymore. You're an adult, you don't
have to. So I saw, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Well that's the most power empowering thing for me, especially
as a person who deals with trauma and abandonment, is
that like, I don't have to be scared anymore. I
don't have to deal with any of that anymore. Actually
I don't have to, honestly. And then my so my friend,
My best friend's in it. She's kind of she goes
a little bit radical with that. I love her because
she has this care free she doesn't give funed out nothing,
(45:03):
Like she's like, I just don't care. Like she pays
her reels and stuff, but like but like barely. It's
not that she can't, it's just she just just doesn't care.
Like she's just gonna go to Guatemala, but rent due
next week. She's like, I'll worry about it when I
get back, right. And she's so carefree and she has
she's like Carlos, it's so freeing in life. And it's
almost dangerous when you realize that you don't have to
do shit as an adult. Literally shit. You don't have
(45:27):
to You don't got to get up, you know. If
you refuse to do things, certain luxuries go away, like
a home, you know, like stability. But do you have
to do You don't have to do anything. Everything that
we do after the age of eighteen is a choice, right,
and that includes the people that we surround ourselves with. Yeah,
that's such a choice. Yeah, And it's insanity for you
(45:49):
to choose to have some people around you that are
causing you to be insane.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
You are, so, you know, and I end up putting
my mom off, So I'm just like, aren't cut this
woman off?
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Then cut So you know what that you know what
that is, you know what that connection is. It's called
the fog. Are you familiar with the fog? I'm not
the adoption So the adoption fog stands for fear, obligation,
and guilt. It's an acronym. As adoptees, we've been told,
not only by our adoptive parents, but also by society,
be grateful. Your mama was a crackhead. You could have
(46:21):
been blah blah blah blah dah right, and you got
a better life, regardless if it was perfect or not.
We've all and we feel that too, like especially those
of us who really do have, Like our mamas were
all some shit, Like I wrote about that in my
first book, Like my family wasn't perfect, Like I should
have been removed, Like it was good that we were removed. Now,
should we've she gotten resources? Yes, they should have gave
(46:43):
her resources instead of just like removing her children and
causing more trauma. So we can approve that. But fear.
The fear is the fear of abandonment, right, So the
fear of no one wanting you, and it actually is
worse for adoptees whose birth parents have died later on
in life because we really ain't got nobody right. So
like for me, my birth mom is dead now too,
so part of my mind is like, maybe I should
(47:04):
reconnect with my adopted family because that fear of being alone,
because what, bitch you, We are alone right now. You
was alone when they left Joe ass on the street
at fifteen. You was alone when you were in their
house because you were emotionally alone. Just because they were
physically there does not mean that you were. You were
physically or emotionally of taking care of you were. So
this fear of being alone obligation. We feel obligated because
(47:27):
you know you did, I would I would have had
a worse life. I don't know what would have happened
to me. You know, I got fed barely, but I'm here,
so I feel obligated that at least you did your
bare minimum of keeping me alive, which is also a
trauma response because bare minimum of like feeling obligated that
someone fed you is insane.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
That's fact, because that's literally how I feel I'm just like,
well if I don't, well.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
They did feed me. The bar is in hell, the
bar for for for self love and say, well they
did feed me. Yeah, you were a child and they
agreed to feed you. That's a bare necessity. So then
that's that's the obligation, Like we feel obligated to them
even though we don't need to. It's just human. They say, like,
(48:14):
I could have been worse off. So then that guilt.
That's where a lot of adoptees really start to unpack
their adoption fog and their trauma. Because the guilt, you're
gonna feel guilt for a couple of things. You're gonna
feel guilt for feeling how you feel and being like
fuck this this was wrong, So you feel guilty for that.
You then feel guilty for feeling fear and obligated because
(48:37):
now you're feeling guilty for yourself, like why the fuck
did I let these people guilt me to this one?
So now you're like feeling guilty that you didn't give
yourself the opportunity to feel that guilt before. Right, and
then lastly, when you decide to make that whatever decision
that it might be, where they're like I'm just cutting
you off forever. Like for me, that's with my adoptive family.
I feel guilty to not only well, I don't have
(48:58):
any children, but like my nieces and nephews my family,
I feel guilty that they'll never I cut them off too.
So that guilt does come up, But it's part of
the fog that it's okay because no matter what, your
adoptive parents should have been helping you through all of this,
and the fog should have never been created. But because
adoption is, it's so beautiful and everything's so great, we
(49:20):
have these blinders on. Right, So this is why how
I describe the adoption fog. You're going through your adoption
with your headlights on. Right, You're driving down the street
with head lights on. You're just focused on getting to
your destination. You're going through with your headlights. You think
you can see. But then it starts getting foggy, emotions
start coming up. What most people do when it starts
getting foggy, they turn off the bright lights. They turn
(49:41):
on them fog lights, right, so we can see clearer.
That's not what adoption does. They turn on the high beams.
And have you ever turned on your high beams and
fog and tried to.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
See anything, see nothing.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
You can't see nothing. You can't see nothing. So a
lot of people are high beaming. Is optees and adopted
parents are high beaming their way through adoption. And then
once the child gets old enough where they're driving and
they like, hey, there's a knob over here that says
for fall, Like, let me turn this song. So you
turn the knob and now you can see everything clearly.
You're like, it's still a little foggy, but it's clearer now,
(50:17):
and now you can navigate your car through that fall.
But you just needed the right tool. You just needed
to click click the right setting. You didn't have it
on the right setting right. And if that setting would
have got clicked years ago when the adoption started, you
wouldn't have had to travel so far. And all that
fall is barely seeing your way through. That's what the
adoption fog is.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
That's so beautiful. I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yes, And it's an ongoing process, and like it's just
like everything, it's never you're never going to fully heal
from ever anything in life. It's always learning how to
navigate the trauma and navigate the emotions. People always ask me, like,
how do you how did you steal? How did you
get through it? I didn't. I learned how to double dutch,
like I learned how to hopscotch double dutch. I learned
(51:05):
how to just roll with the like, roll with the
flow and go with the punches and make the best
out of everything. But isn't that who we are as
black folks anyways? Like, that's who we are as black
folks anyways, making something out of nothing, turning a dollar
into fifteen cents. And I turned and I turned trauma
into my triumph and we all can, you all can.
So I appreciate you sharing your story. And Chantelle, I
(51:28):
always ask all the guests to give one piece of
advice for children who would be in their shoes. So,
what's one piece of advice you would give a kinship
kid who's living with an honor and uncle. What's one
piece of advice you would give them that you learn
from your lifting story?
Speaker 2 (51:43):
And I think for me, just resilience is key. I
feel like that's really and it sucks. I don't even
have to say that, but that's just the reality. Some
people are in messed up situations. And I think just
holding on too resilience and looking down that tunnel and
seeing that little speck of light and just keep going
because you'll get there. You'll get there.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
Yeah, And then you know, honestly looking at the statistics,
that's all you can do is hold on to that
little light. And I say, that's why my slogan it's
always shine your light, because if I'm shining, and if
I continue to shine, somebody will see me, even in
a dark room, Even in the darkness of room, if
one light is shining someone, they'll draw. You'll draw people
to you, right, or you might be able to guide
(52:24):
someone out right, if you've already found your way out
and you're still shining light about the issue, you can
guide them to the exit. Right. So I really I
agree with you. I love how you said that stay resistant,
resistance and stay stay the course. And I think another
thing is believing yourself, because I'll be honest, ain't nobody
in this world going to believe in you. Let's be real.
Sounds like real dark, but like honestly, no one's really
(52:47):
going to believe in you, and no one's going to
have your back better than you have your bad. So
have your own back and be real. But thank you
Chantelle for being here, thank you for sharing your experience,
and I really really appreciate you being on the podcast
and light Shiners. As always, please continue to share these
stories of LIFT experience. Please continue to shine the light
on the dark truth of the systems of external childcare,
(53:09):
and like always, like I say every week, always shine light.
We'll see you guys next time.
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