August 5, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of the Wards of the State podcast, host Karlos Dillard speaks with Abner Sage, who shares his harrowing experiences growing up in the foster care system and later being adopted. Abner discusses the challenges he faced, including frequent separations from his siblings, the stigma of being labeled as 'special needs', and the complexities of navigating identity and trauma. He highlights the systemic issues within the foster care and adoption systems, including financial exploitation and the lack of understanding from caregivers. The conversation sheds light on the need for reform and better support for children in these systems.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Content warning. The Wards of the State podcast may contain
material that may be harmful or traumatizing to some audiences.
Listener discretion is advised. Heylight Shiners, Welcome back to another
(00:44):
amazing episode of Wards of the State podcast. Before we
introduce our next guest, make sure you guys are leaving
us a one, two, three, four five star waiting and
review on Apple Podcasts, and also make sure that you
are subscribing to us on Spotify. You can watch the
lot or the podcast episodes. The video episodes are on YouTube.
The YouTube is just going to be my name, Carlos Dillard.
And also make sure you are checking out the links
(01:05):
in my bio for all the latest things that we
are doing. Right now. We just got back from our
the West coast side of our book tour. We went
to Las Vegas, we did Portland and Seattle. We still
have to hit up La and Texas on the west
side of the coast, but we do. We are taking
a little bit of a break for the summer, guys,
just to give ourselves a break, but we will be
finishing the book tour in the fall, so make sure
(01:27):
you keep your eyes out for that because we may
be coming to a city near you and any other updates.
Both books are on the TikTok shop. Guys, I know
we've been really excited for book two. Order The State
of Memory or worder the City Adoption that is available
on the TikTok shop. And if you guys have been
missing the lives, we've been going live Monday through Friday
again nine to three on TikTok to just to sell
(01:48):
the books and also educate and advocate for adoption reform.
So if you are listening and you haven't already made
sure that you follow me on social media, please do so.
All the links are going to be in the show
notes as always, So without further ado, I do want
to move on to our next guest, Apner. How are
you doing, Apner?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I'm doing really good today. How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I am fantastic, So Ackner, tell us a little bit
about your adoption and how to get into the child
warfare system.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yeah, so, I don't really remember I've been in the
foster care system, or I was in the foster care
system since I was a toddler.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I had the first time.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I remember, I believe I was four, and I had
my younger brother as well. And I remember we were
taken away in the middle of the night and from
then on in foster care until I was thirteen. So yeah,
I know the reasons we were taken away was because
(02:50):
my parents were addicts.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
They were addicted to meth.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
My father was the cook and sellar, and my mom
was the was a user. Well, my father was a
user as well, so I know the reasons why. But
every now and then they would get custody back, but
it would get taken away within like six months. So
I was in foster care from as long as from
as early as I can remember until I was thirteen.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Okay, And did you stay with your brother thuring the
system or did you guys get separated?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
We got well, it was kind of hit or miss.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I actually have other siblings as well, but they weren't
born the first time I was taken, So my fully
biological brother and we share both mom and dad. We
got to stay together occasionally, but we were separated pretty frequently.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I do remember at.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
When I was old enough to really start to understand
that we were going to get separated, I would start
to advocate for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And occasionally I was successful.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
There were a few times where I was able to
convince the foster parents to also take in my brother
or we could go to a group home together. In fact,
so I actually grew up in Arizona. I don't know
if you're familiar. I don't know if it's even still open,
but there's a group home out there called Crisis Nursery.
I lived there several times, and there was a time
where I was able to be there with both my
(04:13):
biological brother and my half brother. But my half brother
was really young, so he was on the.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Like the infant side of the group home.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And I was very lucky and privileged that the staff
members there they gave me the key code so I
could just sneak in between older kids side and go
to the Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So I kind of explained a little bit about the
jurist bands of fastcare that you do remember.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
So I mostly remember never having belongings. The few belongings
we did have were always in a trash bag. And
I know that's a pretty big stereotype that most people
at this point know about, but you know, we don't
get luggage, so.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Trash bags it is.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I remember, Sorry, I have a dissociative problem, so I
di associated.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It a lot you, Okay, I.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Can take a breath.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So I mostly remember the moments where we're taken away.
Those are usually the more traumatic ones, and so they
kind of stick out. My siblings were yelling a lot,
crying a lot, and I remember being parentified very early on.
I was the I wasn't the oldest sibling, but I
was the oldest sibling. That was like living together. My
(05:23):
older siblings were my half siblings, and they got to
stay with their biological fathers, so they got to kind
of stay out of the system. But so I remember, yeah,
just constantly meeting new faces, constantly learning how to adapt,
constantly never knowing what was happening, who I was going
to be with, who I was going to see, if
what school I was going to go to. I remember
(05:43):
at one point counting and I had been to over
twenty two schools.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, so I guess it kind of just depends. I.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I have a lot of stories I tell when I'm
with my with my friends, like when I lived with
the lesbian couple, this is what happened, or oh, when
I lived with the elderly couple, this is what would happen.
Or if I was in the rest at home, this
is what happened. Or I also had like a rich
family that took me in at one point, and boy
did I want them to adopt me?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So like I have a lot of anecdotal stories about
specific foster parents, but uh, yeah, sorry, if you have
a more specific soul, I can get into it.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, no worries, No worries. I know it's it's kind
of a weird thing to be at, Like, hey, what
about your childhood? So in your response when you signed
up for the podcast, you said that there were some
specific things, like some conversations that you wanted to talk about.
So being special needs, did that ever affect you? Did
you ever see that in foster care? Did did they
ever like lie about your abilities or exaggerate your needs
(06:42):
as a child to get more stipends or what was
your experience with that.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So it turns out I have had autism and ADHD
my whole life. I did not get diagnosed with those
when I was a kid. My siblings were also in
the same boat, because it's it's genetic, so all my
siblings are also somewhere on the spectrum. Of course, I
never got diagnosed, so I couldn't get any accommodations that
would have helped me. My brother did get diagnosed with ADHD,
(07:11):
but he also got diagnosed with oppositional defines disorder, which
I don't know if you've done any research into, but
essentially it's a I don't want to call it a
fake disorder, but it's not. The symptoms are more related
to having a melt an artistic meltdown, than they are
to actually being oppositional or like, so my brother had
(07:33):
a lot of tantrums.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, yeah, my adoptive mother would say. They used to
say I had ODD, but it was really just CPTSD
and just a reaction from my CPTSDS. So exactly, it
wasn't that I was trying to be defiant. I literally
just couldn't function.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Because from and you're also trying to protect yourself. It's
a completely understandable reaction, but when you're a kid, you
don't have agency over yourself. And so the parents who
are seeing this, or the foster parents who are seeing
this are thinking like, well, they're just acting out and
are being difficult, and usually they didn't come at it
from a place of understanding and trying to help.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
They just wanted the kids to act right.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So can you restate the question again so I can get.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Back to my life.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So, so, and at one point you did get adopted, correct.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yes, when I was thirteen.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, so when you were thirteen. So that's more along
the lines of like, so when you got adopted from
the foster care system, you were already considered special needs.
So did your adoptive parents ever, you know, use your
being special needs to get money? And how did they
we call that stacking in the system. How did you
figure out that they were doing that? And how much
were they getting to?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
You think?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I never I never learned figures on what they were receiving.
But they so my adopted parents, they adopted me one
of my biological brothers, and then they adopted two other girls.
And it's once they once I separated with them, that's
where I stopped following. If they've adopted more, I have
no idea, but they I remember coming home from work,
because I've been working since I was fourteen. I remember
(09:02):
coming home from work one day and there was there
were papers all over the dining room table. My mom
was not sitting at the table at the moment, but
I heard her like walking towards the area. But I
was looking at the papers on the table, and I
could see all kinds of forms stating like temper tantrums,
temper tantrums, eating like having struggling with eating with food,
(09:23):
not doing well in school, being anti social. So I
remember her filling out those forms and stating all those things.
It's kind of weird when I think back on it,
because they were technically they were technically correct, but I
don't feel I don't feel.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Like that is how it should be going about.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
It shouldn't just be oh, the parent writes on a
form all these things that they think are wrong with you,
and then you get more money. We should be going
to like get diagnosed so we can get a commodation.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
And I actually also just and I also just folk
in Seattle at the what the Academy or so the
Academy of Child and Adolescents psychologists like, and I was
speaking to them about over medication and overmedicating and taking
more time with their clients and the children, especially adoptees
and fossil youth and speaking to them and not just
(10:18):
pushing pills or pushing pills as a solution. I know,
I understand it sometimes Western medicines and anti depressants, and
you know, psychotropics can help, but we don't need just
that to be the first solution. And a lot of
the times they really didn't have an understanding that these
parents were using these doctor's appointments to get more money
(10:41):
so they could say that you had more emotional problems.
So I think it's really important for you to highlight that.
So you were thirteen when you got adopted. So what
do you say when people, because people say that's about
an age that kids should be able to consent? Did
you understand the legal process of what you were about
to do when you were thirteen?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
No, I didn't. I didn't.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I didn't know anything when I was thirteen.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I just.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
And at the time, I was very especially when it's
from such a young age that you've been tossed from
family to family, you get tired of that. You want
to make roots, you want to stay in one place.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And so.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
They and the parent and my parents had not at
that point done the worst of what they were going
to do to us, and so I didn't know who
they were really when they wanted to adopt us. I
don't think thirteen year olds can can fully grasp their
I definitely knew that, you know, my parents were on
(11:42):
drug My biological parents were on drugs, and they were no,
they were not capable of taking care of me. I
understood that I did not understand the adoption process, what
it was and what it would eventually mean for me
as an adult when I became When I turned eighteen,
and I tried to get my medical records and even
just my adoption or Pasha care records, they wouldn't release
them to me, so I had no way from them
(12:07):
be able to accurately give family medical history. So I've
had several like DNA tests done when I go to
the doctors, so that way they can like figure out
if there's any like genetic markers that I need to
be aware of, which is really expensive and for the
most part, we just kind of guess. But I have
a lot of I actually ended up finding out that
I have a lot of genetic conditions that could have
(12:31):
been diagnosed a lot sooner had I had access to
that information. So yeah, no, I don't think thirteen year
olds know what they're getting into when they say, yeah,
I want these people to adopt me, especially because we
usually have such like people pleasing tendencies or like a
desire to want.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
To fit in with the community.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
And if these people are going to say and pretend
really well that they want me in their community, then
of course say to a judge, yeah, I want to
stay with them, but I also don't and get.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Your adopt parents. Were your adoptive parents, your foster parents
or did they just adopt you from foster care?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
They were my foster parents first.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Okay, And so they fostered you first. And how was
that experience with them, Like did it change from fostering
to adoption. Did they treat you differently after the adoption
was finalized? Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
So before we were adopted, they weren't quite as mean.
I mean, there were still signs, but I overlooked the
red flags. They weren't quite as mean to us. They
didn't quite do as many manipulation tactics. And I think,
honestly part of that is because they didn't really know
us very well. And they also didn't really attempt to
get to know us very much either. So this actually
(13:42):
kind of goes into the thing I wanted to talk
about with identity and that growing up in foster care.
When you're trying to please other people, you suppress your
own needs and your own identity so that way you
can fit in and be accepted by these other people.
And so I did not know really a lot about
myself or my own interests or anything like that. And
(14:04):
then when I was adopted by this family kind of
got even worse because once I did try and I
started to be a teenager, you know, I want to
I want to learn who I am by things out.
I found out very quickly they didn't like the things
I was trying out. I was very into metal music.
(14:25):
I liked all things kind of goth. And I still
it was not a face. I still I still do.
But they were religious extremists, and so any interest in
that they considered to be demonic, and so I had
a lot of exorcisms done on me.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
They would take vegetable.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Oil, they'd say a prayer over their vegetable oil. Yeah,
they'd say a prayer over the vegetable oil to anoint
it and call it holy oil, and they'd put they'd
put a cross on our forehead, and then the whole
family would lay hands on us and they my mom
would pretend to speak in tongues and pray the demon out,
and then after about forty five minutes, she'd like be
all sweaty, and I think that worked, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I don't think you had the demons anymore. But then
of course a week later it'd come by and she'd
be like, those demons never left you, and then it'd
be back to square one with the exorcism and stuff.
And that really happened with my younger brother a lot
as well too, especially because of the tantrum. She thought
that he had a violent demon that was going to
who even knows. She had a lot of delusions and yeah,
(15:24):
so there was no real ability for me to even
build an identity because every time I tried to do that,
it would be demonized or criticized. There were a lot
of times she'd ask me like, oh, what do you
want to do when you become an adult? And I
was very into writing poetry at the time. I still am.
I'm trying to get back into it. I'm working on
it with my therapist. So I would tell her all
(15:46):
these things I wanted to do, and she'd always have
a reason for why I could not do the thing
that I had picked out that I wanted to do
for writing, it was, oh, well, that's a very niche like,
you have to be an excellent writer, and even people
who are really good at writing, they spend their entire
lives writing and they never get publish.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
And maybe you should have a backup. Okay, well that's fine,
maybe I should have a backup. And so then i'd
pivot and I thought, maybe, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Really want to help people who were in situations like me.
Maybe I could be a therapist. Oh well, I think
your heart is too weak for them. I think you're
going to end up prying and making it all about yourself,
and you probably shouldn't. Probably shouldn't try and and help
other people. It's going to be too close to home
for you. Okay, well, maybe I can help other people.
I want to be a forensic scientist. Oh well, I
don't think you'd do well with the blood and the gore.
(16:28):
Even though horror films were my favorite, and she used
to do exorcisms over me if I would laugh at
a scary movie. So just every every time I had
something I wanted to do, it was never good enough.
So I never really got to figure that out.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And then as an adult, those people pleasing tendencies didn't
go away.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I hadn't quite unpacked all that trauma. So I'm still
continuing to make decisions based on other people's opinions and
not my own. And so it took me a really
long time to figure out what my values in my
ethic were and to start living by that. So I
feel like I am very far behind in my own
identity and knowing who I am than other people are.
(17:08):
I could have had my career solidified at this point
if I had had someone supportive and in fact, even
the thing that I went to I was going to
go to school for I couldn't because they wouldn't even
co sign alone for me to go to college. I
got accepted, I had a fifty percent grant, but I
still needed like twelve thousand dollars more and I wanted
to So I need to co sign a lot.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Pole just don't understand that you need your parents' tax
information even to get loans. You need your tax information
and they're sign off. And that's crazy. So was and
you said that this was this is how they treated
all the children in.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Their home right for the most part.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah, they also did a lot of They would pit
us against each other. I ended up being the golden
child a lot and the scapegoat quite a bit. And
the other kids, who they were a lot more. They
weren't as people pleasing as I was. They were very
much They got into the system a little bit later,
so they knew who their family was, and they knew
who they were a little bit stronger than I was,
(18:05):
and so they would push back a lot more, and
because of that I was. There was a point actually,
I remember telling my siblings and I said, hey, don't
tell me anything. Don't don't tell me your secrets, because
our mom will make me tell her and you guys
will get in trouble. There was one time my sister
had tried smoking weed and she told me about it,
like a year after she had tried it, and I
(18:29):
I feel really bad about this, but I remember slapping
her and being like, why would you do that? Like
you're going to be in so much trouble and this
is such a large secret. But I remember I asked her.
I was like, did you did you do it anymore?
She's like no, it was just the one time. And
I said, okay, good, Like I'm not going to tell,
but but you can't.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
You can't keep doing it because if I, if I
catch you, I'm gonna have to Like, I'm going to
get in so much trouble if I don't tell our mom.
And then so I was, I was really good about it.
I didn't I actual didn't tell that secret. But six
months later she found out anyways, and then she found
out I knew and I was sleeping. It was in
the middle of the night. It was a school night.
It was like one in the morning, and I hear
(19:12):
her yelling. I hear my mom yelling upstairs, and then
I hear her stop down the stairs, and I knew
she was coming into my room. And she busts the
door open, flips the lights on, and then like pulls
the covers off me. And it's like, you knew that
your sister did weed and.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
You didn't tell me.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
And I was like, it was over a year ago,
Like what am I supposed to do with something that
happened over a year ago? And yeah, So we were
all grounded. Everybody got grounded for two weeks. We weren't
allowed to go out, we weren't allowed to have our phones,
weren't allowed to do anything that was also like they
were very big on punishment. They would spank us, but
(19:50):
most of the time it was grounding, which for me,
I was an introvert, so a lot of times the
groundings didn't always they weren't the worst things for me.
I would just read, and that's all I ever wanted
to do was just read.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Anyways, so I just sit in my room and read.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
But then they caught onto that and then I wasn't
allowed to read books anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
That's how my adoptive parents were. They grounded me like
from like games and movies and TV, and then I
was like, okay, I'll just read, and I actually really
enjoyed reading, so then they grounded me from reading, so
then I just found other things to enjoy. So eventually
I would just have to be stuck in a room
with nothing in it, just looking at four walls, locked inside,
and I was like, yes, this is horrible.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
And I think that absolutely contributed to some of the
dissociative problems I deal with, Like, Okay, if you have
nothing else, if you literally have nothing that you can
distract yourself with, what are you going to do? You're
going to go inside your own mind and create a
whole world and just live there, because you can't just
stare at a wall. Yeah, so the she definitely had
different ways.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
She would play all of the kids.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
I was the oldest and so I was in charge,
and if the younger kids messed up, I was in trouble.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I would get grounded.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I would have to redo their work constantly as well.
There was a lot of we had to do a
lot of chores, which I call them chores, but really, like.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I don't, I don't know what to call it.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
When you're when your whole entire weekend is spent deep
cleaning a house from head to every weekend there you
have to not only just pick up after yourself and
just like do like dishes or sweep up the floor,
but it goes beyond that, Like you have to get
on your hands and knees and you have to scrub
the grout because the grout has to be Christine. It
(21:27):
has to look exactly the way it did when they
first got it put in. And you have to scrub
all the base boards. You have to do the light fixtures,
the ceiling fan, every nook and cranny. And then also
like her, she had a couple of adult children who
lived with her as well, and so like she treated
them a lot differently than she treated us. They would
not be involved in the cleaning. They would clean up
their own room and that was it. But she her
(21:49):
older daughter lived on her own, she was married, she
had her own kids. We would go over to her
older daughter's house as well, and we would have to
de clean her house, also.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Her daughter's house too. Dang, we have some employees.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Yes, my friends actually called me Cinderella for a really
long time. They knew before I was willing to admit
it to myself that I was in an abusive situation.
So I'm trying to think of more examples and get
back on topic. But I've kind of lost the I've
lost the train a little bit.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
No, you're okay, and this is the perfect time because
we're going to take a quick break. When we get back, guys,
we're going to listen to more of Abner's story. We're
also going to hear some suggestions that they think would
improve the system, like reallocating resources. So Life Shinners will
be right back, and when we get right back, we'll
finish Appner's experience in the foster care and adoption systems.
Welcome back to the show Light Shiners. Make sure you
(22:40):
guys are leaving us one two, three, four, five star
rating reviews on Apple Podcasts, as well as subscribing to
us on Spotify. Also, make sure you're sharing with your
family and friends, and make sure you're checking out my
links and all my bios to support and if you
haven't grabbed book two, order The State Abort the Adoption,
grab it. It's a good read, guys. We've got some
great reviews on it, so we're not without further ado,
I want to reintroduce Abner and their experience in foster care.
(23:04):
So they were sharing with a little bit about some
religious trauma, some isolation that might have caused disassociation. Abner,
do you think that because your foster parents adopted you
and we talked about them stacking, we talked about them,
you know, exaggerating behaviors to get more money, do you
think that this money could be better at a reallocated
(23:24):
and do you think your birth parents could have benefited
from these services or resources.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
My biological mom struggled with addiction, and I think for
a lot of kids in foster care that is that
that's pretty typical. I feel the money that we are
giving to foster parents, outside of very extreme situations where
there is severe abuse happening, I feel that money could
(23:53):
be reallocated to the families, to the biological families to
be able.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
To help with rehab or therapy.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Or a lot of other people turn to drugs simply
because they don't know how to cope with their own traumas.
So I'm a huge advocate of therapy. I have been
in therapy since I was in the military. That's something
I continued to have. I fought to get a therapist
instead of be on medication, and now when I'm outside
(24:22):
of it, the VA thankfully still pays for me to
have therapy and I go see a therapist every week
and I have for years. I think it is incredibly
important for people to have that, and so I feel
that money would be way better reallocated to helping for
mental health resources. And even if it's not drug related,
if it's just because some people can't make enough money,
(24:45):
why are we taking their kids away and giving them
to another family to give them money. Just give the
give the biological family the money instead. They need help
with bills, They need help with groceries, whatever it is
that money can be used so that way they can
stay with their FAMI family and be more stable. They
just need help. They don't need their kids ripped away
from them just because they're struggling.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Early in the conversation, you said that you disconnected with
your adoptive family. What age was that did your? I
know you said that they want to help you with college,
So I'm assuming that they didn't save any of those
stepends for you to help you along or help you
become an adult.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
No, as I turned eighteen and they didn't give me anything.
They took the cell phone that they had given me.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
They took that away.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
That they had bought me a car when I was
seventeen so that way I could go to work.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
They took that away. Funny little anecdote.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
It blew up on them two weeks after they took
it away from me, So that was really fun to
hear about afterwards. Sorry, let me get back on my
train of thought.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Very sorry.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, your adoptive parents after your did they pay? Did
they pay?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
They did not? Yeah, they paid me nothing. They gave
me nothing.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
They literally just I was able to pack my clothing
and get out of the house. The day that it
happened was the day that I asked for them to
co sign a loan for me to go to college.
My mom said that she would have to wait until
our dad got home so she could talk about it
with him, and then very quickly actually devolved from there.
(26:11):
She didn't even wait, she just she kept barging into
our room afterwards to just nitpick something with me and
my sisters. I don't like swimming. She really wanted to
go swimming. And so when she barged into the room
and she's like, I want to go swimming. I know
Abner doesn't want to go swimming, but.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Do you too want to go swimming?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
And I was like, I'm mom, I'm trying to I'm
just trying to get some loans, like that's what I'm
trying to do. And eventually she said that she needed
to talk to me in private and told me that
I needed to either get my act together or leave.
And after list, it was a much longer conversation than that,
and she made some very specific points and it was
(26:50):
just one of those moments where I realized, like, she
does not love me, she does not care about me,
and if I continue to stay here, this is just
going to be more of the same.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
And so I decided, while I've been homeless.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Before, I've lived in cars before, I've slept on the streets,
I've dumped your dive before, I'll do.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
It again without her.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Yeah, And so I said, I think I'm gonna leave,
and her jaw dropped and she's like, you can't be serious.
And I said, I'm gonna leave. And I asked her,
I was like, when do you want me out? And
she said right now. So I called my best friend.
I said, I need you to come pick me up, gathered
all my stuff, left, she gave me nothing. I had
actually left a few things there on accident, and I
was not allowed to return to get them. My siblings
(27:28):
were no longer allowed to talk to me. They would,
of course sneak a couple of messages here and there,
but they would get found out and they'd get grounded,
and it was a whole thing. I found out she
was still hitting my siblings, and I tried to report
her to CPS, but of course there was never ever.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Ah. Ah was a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Like my situation, but I was like fifteen when it
happened with my siblings evidence or whatever. They yeah, you
just don't. They don't care.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Paper trail, that's the word. Yeah, they don't.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
There was never a paper trail, and so, which is
which is funny because I remember them telling my and
I actually I told you on the live when I
was a guest, Like I remember very clearly them telling
my caseworker that they do hit, that they do spank us.
And my my uh caseworker, with her big old key
ringer in her in her hand, just shoved her fingers
into her ears and said, la, la, lah, I don't
(28:16):
hear you. I can't, you can't. They can't stay here
if you spank them. And so, yeah, the caseworker knew.
But when I became eighteen and was ready to finally,
you know, address the issues, there was no pay per trail,
and so it was the start of a pay per trail.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
But I was already out of the house at.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
At that point, so there could no longer continue to
be one other than I said at the one time.
And I'm not with them anymore, so I have no
no evidence of any future.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Have you seen them or have you seen ourselves with them?
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Since she reached out to me months later to apologize.
I listened to her apology. It was very self righteous.
She wanted my forgiveness just so she could feel better
about herself, and I told her I forgave her. But
then it was it kind of ended up being the
same thing I would hear from my siblings that she
(29:06):
was continuing to still do the same stuff she was. Yeah,
she was still being just as vindictive and manipulative.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So I cut ties with her.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I just I didn't want She still tries to reach
out every now and then, and I just have no
interest in continuing a relationship with someone who's only ever
going to apologize so that way they can feel better
and not actually change their behavior. So no, I don't
keep in contact with my adopted family.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
And I don't make Sometimes no contact is the best
contact it is.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I've been It's been a lot less stressful not having
them around. They did actually make my life a little
bit harder when I was trying to join the army
because I needed their information to fill out paperwork, and
I was in the recruiter's office and I called up
my dad to get some information from him, and he
pretended like he didn't know who I was, and I
kept telling I was like, your child, Abner, your child
(29:56):
like and he's like, don't know who that is and
hung up on me. And it wasn't a until the
FBI had to go to them, because yeah, the FBI
had to go to talk to them so that way
I could get a top secret clearance for the job
I was going to do in the military. And then
all of a sudden they change their tune and I'm
a wonderful child. They're so proud of me. They can't
believe I'm doing this, and like it was just.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
It was so fake.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's crazy, that's crazy, Abner. I appreciate you coming onto
the show and sharing. It's so crazy how much our
a lot of adoptees' experiences are so similar, especially with
religious trauma, and then you know with crazy adoptive mothers.
It's always the mothers usually. I don't know why, but
I really appreciate you. I always ask every guest this,
what's one piece of advice that you would give a
foster you who or an adoptee. What's one piece of
(30:41):
advice you would give them if you could give if
you were speaking to them with your lived experience.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Now, my advice to them would be to search out
for your own community. Find the people who actually do
uplift you and support you and encourage you, and stick
with them. They don't have to be your adopted family,
they don't have to be your biological family, for it
is that is showing you love and care and concern.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Stick with them, love.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I love that well. Abner. Thank you so much for
coming on the Ward to This Day podcast and sharing
your lived experience as an adoptee. I hope that you
continue to shine your light and continue to find out
who you are and do things that make you happy
like you're saying, and figuring out what your life is
going to look like even for now in the future.
So thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Thank you. Can I say just one more really quick thing?
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Sure, go ahead. Yeah. On the identity part, I did
end up figuring out my morals, values and ethics, and
I'm living up by them a lot more now. It
turns out, thank you, it turns out I was a
trans age ender kid pan sexual, which never would have
been allowed in that household. I remember actually having a
lot of arguments about homophobia with them, and so I
(31:51):
get to now.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I work for.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
A nonprofit helping trans kids and it's just a joy.
And so yeah, I find found who I was and
how I'm doing work that is meaningful and fulfilling.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
That's amazing. So you're the adult that you needed when
you're an adult that you needed when you were a kid.
We love that, Yes, we love that. Well, you know what,
keep being that adult, Abner, and I can't wait to
have more kids being able to listen to your experience
and know that they're not alone. So thank you for
sharing it. And light shiners, like I say every week,
always share your life because you never know who might
be listening, and you never know who you might inspire.
(32:25):
So and to next week, guys, always shine a light
and we'll see you next time.
Content warning. The Wards of the State podcast may contain
material that may be harmful or traumatizing to some audiences.
Listener discretion is advised. Heylight Shiners, Welcome back to another
(00:44):
amazing episode of Wards of the State podcast. Before we
introduce our next guest, make sure you guys are leaving
us a one, two, three, four five star waiting and
review on Apple Podcasts, and also make sure that you
are subscribing to us on Spotify. You can watch the
lot or the podcast episodes. The video episodes are on YouTube.
The YouTube is just going to be my name, Carlos Dillard.
And also make sure you are checking out the links
(01:05):
in my bio for all the latest things that we
are doing. Right now. We just got back from our
the West coast side of our book tour. We went
to Las Vegas, we did Portland and Seattle. We still
have to hit up La and Texas on the west
side of the coast, but we do. We are taking
a little bit of a break for the summer, guys,
just to give ourselves a break, but we will be
finishing the book tour in the fall, so make sure
(01:27):
you keep your eyes out for that because we may
be coming to a city near you and any other updates.
Both books are on the TikTok shop. Guys, I know
we've been really excited for book two. Order The State
of Memory or worder the City Adoption that is available
on the TikTok shop. And if you guys have been
missing the lives, we've been going live Monday through Friday
again nine to three on TikTok to just to sell
(01:48):
the books and also educate and advocate for adoption reform.
So if you are listening and you haven't already made
sure that you follow me on social media, please do so.
All the links are going to be in the show
notes as always, So without further ado, I do want
to move on to our next guest, Apner. How are
you doing, Apner?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I'm doing really good today. How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I am fantastic, So Ackner, tell us a little bit
about your adoption and how to get into the child
warfare system.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yeah, so, I don't really remember I've been in the
foster care system, or I was in the foster care
system since I was a toddler.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I had the first time.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I remember, I believe I was four, and I had
my younger brother as well. And I remember we were
taken away in the middle of the night and from
then on in foster care until I was thirteen. So yeah,
I know the reasons we were taken away was because
(02:50):
my parents were addicts.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
They were addicted to meth.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
My father was the cook and sellar, and my mom
was the was a user. Well, my father was a
user as well, so I know the reasons why. But
every now and then they would get custody back, but
it would get taken away within like six months. So
I was in foster care from as long as from
as early as I can remember until I was thirteen.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Okay, And did you stay with your brother thuring the
system or did you guys get separated?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
We got well, it was kind of hit or miss.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I actually have other siblings as well, but they weren't
born the first time I was taken, So my fully
biological brother and we share both mom and dad. We
got to stay together occasionally, but we were separated pretty frequently.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I do remember at.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
When I was old enough to really start to understand
that we were going to get separated, I would start
to advocate for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And occasionally I was successful.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
There were a few times where I was able to
convince the foster parents to also take in my brother
or we could go to a group home together. In fact,
so I actually grew up in Arizona. I don't know
if you're familiar. I don't know if it's even still open,
but there's a group home out there called Crisis Nursery.
I lived there several times, and there was a time
where I was able to be there with both my
(04:13):
biological brother and my half brother. But my half brother
was really young, so he was on the.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Like the infant side of the group home.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And I was very lucky and privileged that the staff
members there they gave me the key code so I
could just sneak in between older kids side and go
to the Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So I kind of explained a little bit about the
jurist bands of fastcare that you do remember.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
So I mostly remember never having belongings. The few belongings
we did have were always in a trash bag. And
I know that's a pretty big stereotype that most people
at this point know about, but you know, we don't
get luggage, so.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Trash bags it is.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I remember, Sorry, I have a dissociative problem, so I
di associated.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It a lot you, Okay, I.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Can take a breath.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So I mostly remember the moments where we're taken away.
Those are usually the more traumatic ones, and so they
kind of stick out. My siblings were yelling a lot,
crying a lot, and I remember being parentified very early on.
I was the I wasn't the oldest sibling, but I
was the oldest sibling. That was like living together. My
(05:23):
older siblings were my half siblings, and they got to
stay with their biological fathers, so they got to kind
of stay out of the system. But so I remember, yeah,
just constantly meeting new faces, constantly learning how to adapt,
constantly never knowing what was happening, who I was going
to be with, who I was going to see, if
what school I was going to go to. I remember
(05:43):
at one point counting and I had been to over
twenty two schools.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, so I guess it kind of just depends. I.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I have a lot of stories I tell when I'm
with my with my friends, like when I lived with
the lesbian couple, this is what happened, or oh, when
I lived with the elderly couple, this is what would happen.
Or if I was in the rest at home, this
is what happened. Or I also had like a rich
family that took me in at one point, and boy
did I want them to adopt me?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So like I have a lot of anecdotal stories about
specific foster parents, but uh, yeah, sorry, if you have
a more specific soul, I can get into it.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, no worries, No worries. I know it's it's kind
of a weird thing to be at, Like, hey, what
about your childhood? So in your response when you signed
up for the podcast, you said that there were some
specific things, like some conversations that you wanted to talk about.
So being special needs, did that ever affect you? Did
you ever see that in foster care? Did did they
ever like lie about your abilities or exaggerate your needs
(06:42):
as a child to get more stipends or what was
your experience with that.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So it turns out I have had autism and ADHD
my whole life. I did not get diagnosed with those
when I was a kid. My siblings were also in
the same boat, because it's it's genetic, so all my
siblings are also somewhere on the spectrum. Of course, I
never got diagnosed, so I couldn't get any accommodations that
would have helped me. My brother did get diagnosed with ADHD,
(07:11):
but he also got diagnosed with oppositional defines disorder, which
I don't know if you've done any research into, but
essentially it's a I don't want to call it a
fake disorder, but it's not. The symptoms are more related
to having a melt an artistic meltdown, than they are
to actually being oppositional or like, so my brother had
(07:33):
a lot of tantrums.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, yeah, my adoptive mother would say. They used to
say I had ODD, but it was really just CPTSD
and just a reaction from my CPTSDS. So exactly, it
wasn't that I was trying to be defiant. I literally
just couldn't function.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Because from and you're also trying to protect yourself. It's
a completely understandable reaction, but when you're a kid, you
don't have agency over yourself. And so the parents who
are seeing this, or the foster parents who are seeing
this are thinking like, well, they're just acting out and
are being difficult, and usually they didn't come at it
from a place of understanding and trying to help.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
They just wanted the kids to act right.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So can you restate the question again so I can get.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Back to my life.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So, so, and at one point you did get adopted, correct.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yes, when I was thirteen.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, so when you were thirteen. So that's more along
the lines of like, so when you got adopted from
the foster care system, you were already considered special needs.
So did your adoptive parents ever, you know, use your
being special needs to get money? And how did they
we call that stacking in the system. How did you
figure out that they were doing that? And how much
were they getting to?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
You think?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I never I never learned figures on what they were receiving.
But they so my adopted parents, they adopted me one
of my biological brothers, and then they adopted two other girls.
And it's once they once I separated with them, that's
where I stopped following. If they've adopted more, I have
no idea, but they I remember coming home from work,
because I've been working since I was fourteen. I remember
(09:02):
coming home from work one day and there was there
were papers all over the dining room table. My mom
was not sitting at the table at the moment, but
I heard her like walking towards the area. But I
was looking at the papers on the table, and I
could see all kinds of forms stating like temper tantrums,
temper tantrums, eating like having struggling with eating with food,
(09:23):
not doing well in school, being anti social. So I
remember her filling out those forms and stating all those things.
It's kind of weird when I think back on it,
because they were technically they were technically correct, but I
don't feel I don't feel.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Like that is how it should be going about.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
It shouldn't just be oh, the parent writes on a
form all these things that they think are wrong with you,
and then you get more money. We should be going
to like get diagnosed so we can get a commodation.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
And I actually also just and I also just folk
in Seattle at the what the Academy or so the
Academy of Child and Adolescents psychologists like, and I was
speaking to them about over medication and overmedicating and taking
more time with their clients and the children, especially adoptees
and fossil youth and speaking to them and not just
(10:18):
pushing pills or pushing pills as a solution. I know,
I understand it sometimes Western medicines and anti depressants, and
you know, psychotropics can help, but we don't need just
that to be the first solution. And a lot of
the times they really didn't have an understanding that these
parents were using these doctor's appointments to get more money
(10:41):
so they could say that you had more emotional problems.
So I think it's really important for you to highlight that.
So you were thirteen when you got adopted. So what
do you say when people, because people say that's about
an age that kids should be able to consent? Did
you understand the legal process of what you were about
to do when you were thirteen?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
No, I didn't. I didn't.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I didn't know anything when I was thirteen.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I just.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
And at the time, I was very especially when it's
from such a young age that you've been tossed from
family to family, you get tired of that. You want
to make roots, you want to stay in one place.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And so.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
They and the parent and my parents had not at
that point done the worst of what they were going
to do to us, and so I didn't know who
they were really when they wanted to adopt us. I
don't think thirteen year olds can can fully grasp their
I definitely knew that, you know, my parents were on
(11:42):
drug My biological parents were on drugs, and they were no,
they were not capable of taking care of me. I
understood that I did not understand the adoption process, what
it was and what it would eventually mean for me
as an adult when I became When I turned eighteen,
and I tried to get my medical records and even
just my adoption or Pasha care records, they wouldn't release
them to me, so I had no way from them
(12:07):
be able to accurately give family medical history. So I've
had several like DNA tests done when I go to
the doctors, so that way they can like figure out
if there's any like genetic markers that I need to
be aware of, which is really expensive and for the
most part, we just kind of guess. But I have
a lot of I actually ended up finding out that
I have a lot of genetic conditions that could have
(12:31):
been diagnosed a lot sooner had I had access to
that information. So yeah, no, I don't think thirteen year
olds know what they're getting into when they say, yeah,
I want these people to adopt me, especially because we
usually have such like people pleasing tendencies or like a
desire to want.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
To fit in with the community.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
And if these people are going to say and pretend
really well that they want me in their community, then
of course say to a judge, yeah, I want to
stay with them, but I also don't and get.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Your adopt parents. Were your adoptive parents, your foster parents
or did they just adopt you from foster care?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
They were my foster parents first.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Okay, And so they fostered you first. And how was
that experience with them, Like did it change from fostering
to adoption. Did they treat you differently after the adoption
was finalized? Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
So before we were adopted, they weren't quite as mean.
I mean, there were still signs, but I overlooked the
red flags. They weren't quite as mean to us. They
didn't quite do as many manipulation tactics. And I think,
honestly part of that is because they didn't really know
us very well. And they also didn't really attempt to
get to know us very much either. So this actually
(13:42):
kind of goes into the thing I wanted to talk
about with identity and that growing up in foster care.
When you're trying to please other people, you suppress your
own needs and your own identity so that way you
can fit in and be accepted by these other people.
And so I did not know really a lot about
myself or my own interests or anything like that. And
(14:04):
then when I was adopted by this family kind of
got even worse because once I did try and I
started to be a teenager, you know, I want to
I want to learn who I am by things out.
I found out very quickly they didn't like the things
I was trying out. I was very into metal music.
(14:25):
I liked all things kind of goth. And I still
it was not a face. I still I still do.
But they were religious extremists, and so any interest in
that they considered to be demonic, and so I had
a lot of exorcisms done on me.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
They would take vegetable.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Oil, they'd say a prayer over their vegetable oil. Yeah,
they'd say a prayer over the vegetable oil to anoint
it and call it holy oil, and they'd put they'd
put a cross on our forehead, and then the whole
family would lay hands on us and they my mom
would pretend to speak in tongues and pray the demon out,
and then after about forty five minutes, she'd like be
all sweaty, and I think that worked, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I don't think you had the demons anymore. But then
of course a week later it'd come by and she'd
be like, those demons never left you, and then it'd
be back to square one with the exorcism and stuff.
And that really happened with my younger brother a lot
as well too, especially because of the tantrum. She thought
that he had a violent demon that was going to
who even knows. She had a lot of delusions and yeah,
(15:24):
so there was no real ability for me to even
build an identity because every time I tried to do that,
it would be demonized or criticized. There were a lot
of times she'd ask me like, oh, what do you
want to do when you become an adult? And I
was very into writing poetry at the time. I still am.
I'm trying to get back into it. I'm working on
it with my therapist. So I would tell her all
(15:46):
these things I wanted to do, and she'd always have
a reason for why I could not do the thing
that I had picked out that I wanted to do
for writing, it was, oh, well, that's a very niche like,
you have to be an excellent writer, and even people
who are really good at writing, they spend their entire
lives writing and they never get publish.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
And maybe you should have a backup. Okay, well that's fine,
maybe I should have a backup. And so then i'd
pivot and I thought, maybe, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Really want to help people who were in situations like me.
Maybe I could be a therapist. Oh well, I think
your heart is too weak for them. I think you're
going to end up prying and making it all about yourself,
and you probably shouldn't. Probably shouldn't try and and help
other people. It's going to be too close to home
for you. Okay, well, maybe I can help other people.
I want to be a forensic scientist. Oh well, I
don't think you'd do well with the blood and the gore.
(16:28):
Even though horror films were my favorite, and she used
to do exorcisms over me if I would laugh at
a scary movie. So just every every time I had
something I wanted to do, it was never good enough.
So I never really got to figure that out.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And then as an adult, those people pleasing tendencies didn't
go away.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I hadn't quite unpacked all that trauma. So I'm still
continuing to make decisions based on other people's opinions and
not my own. And so it took me a really
long time to figure out what my values in my
ethic were and to start living by that. So I
feel like I am very far behind in my own
identity and knowing who I am than other people are.
(17:08):
I could have had my career solidified at this point
if I had had someone supportive and in fact, even
the thing that I went to I was going to
go to school for I couldn't because they wouldn't even
co sign alone for me to go to college. I
got accepted, I had a fifty percent grant, but I
still needed like twelve thousand dollars more and I wanted
to So I need to co sign a lot.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Pole just don't understand that you need your parents' tax
information even to get loans. You need your tax information
and they're sign off. And that's crazy. So was and
you said that this was this is how they treated
all the children in.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Their home right for the most part.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah, they also did a lot of They would pit
us against each other. I ended up being the golden
child a lot and the scapegoat quite a bit. And
the other kids, who they were a lot more. They
weren't as people pleasing as I was. They were very
much They got into the system a little bit later,
so they knew who their family was, and they knew
who they were a little bit stronger than I was,
(18:05):
and so they would push back a lot more, and
because of that I was. There was a point actually,
I remember telling my siblings and I said, hey, don't
tell me anything. Don't don't tell me your secrets, because
our mom will make me tell her and you guys
will get in trouble. There was one time my sister
had tried smoking weed and she told me about it,
like a year after she had tried it, and I
(18:29):
I feel really bad about this, but I remember slapping
her and being like, why would you do that? Like
you're going to be in so much trouble and this
is such a large secret. But I remember I asked her.
I was like, did you did you do it anymore?
She's like no, it was just the one time. And
I said, okay, good, Like I'm not going to tell,
but but you can't.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
You can't keep doing it because if I, if I
catch you, I'm gonna have to Like, I'm going to
get in so much trouble if I don't tell our mom.
And then so I was, I was really good about it.
I didn't I actual didn't tell that secret. But six
months later she found out anyways, and then she found
out I knew and I was sleeping. It was in
the middle of the night. It was a school night.
It was like one in the morning, and I hear
(19:12):
her yelling. I hear my mom yelling upstairs, and then
I hear her stop down the stairs, and I knew
she was coming into my room. And she busts the
door open, flips the lights on, and then like pulls
the covers off me. And it's like, you knew that
your sister did weed and.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
You didn't tell me.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
And I was like, it was over a year ago,
Like what am I supposed to do with something that
happened over a year ago? And yeah, So we were
all grounded. Everybody got grounded for two weeks. We weren't
allowed to go out, we weren't allowed to have our phones,
weren't allowed to do anything that was also like they
were very big on punishment. They would spank us, but
(19:50):
most of the time it was grounding, which for me,
I was an introvert, so a lot of times the
groundings didn't always they weren't the worst things for me.
I would just read, and that's all I ever wanted
to do was just read.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Anyways, so I just sit in my room and read.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
But then they caught onto that and then I wasn't
allowed to read books anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
That's how my adoptive parents were. They grounded me like
from like games and movies and TV, and then I
was like, okay, I'll just read, and I actually really
enjoyed reading, so then they grounded me from reading, so
then I just found other things to enjoy. So eventually
I would just have to be stuck in a room
with nothing in it, just looking at four walls, locked inside,
and I was like, yes, this is horrible.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
And I think that absolutely contributed to some of the
dissociative problems I deal with, Like, Okay, if you have
nothing else, if you literally have nothing that you can
distract yourself with, what are you going to do? You're
going to go inside your own mind and create a
whole world and just live there, because you can't just
stare at a wall. Yeah, so the she definitely had
different ways.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
She would play all of the kids.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
I was the oldest and so I was in charge,
and if the younger kids messed up, I was in trouble.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I would get grounded.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I would have to redo their work constantly as well.
There was a lot of we had to do a
lot of chores, which I call them chores, but really, like.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I don't, I don't know what to call it.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
When you're when your whole entire weekend is spent deep
cleaning a house from head to every weekend there you
have to not only just pick up after yourself and
just like do like dishes or sweep up the floor,
but it goes beyond that, Like you have to get
on your hands and knees and you have to scrub
the grout because the grout has to be Christine. It
(21:27):
has to look exactly the way it did when they
first got it put in. And you have to scrub
all the base boards. You have to do the light fixtures,
the ceiling fan, every nook and cranny. And then also
like her, she had a couple of adult children who
lived with her as well, and so like she treated
them a lot differently than she treated us. They would
not be involved in the cleaning. They would clean up
their own room and that was it. But she her
(21:49):
older daughter lived on her own, she was married, she
had her own kids. We would go over to her
older daughter's house as well, and we would have to
de clean her house, also.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Her daughter's house too. Dang, we have some employees.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Yes, my friends actually called me Cinderella for a really
long time. They knew before I was willing to admit
it to myself that I was in an abusive situation.
So I'm trying to think of more examples and get
back on topic. But I've kind of lost the I've
lost the train a little bit.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
No, you're okay, and this is the perfect time because
we're going to take a quick break. When we get back, guys,
we're going to listen to more of Abner's story. We're
also going to hear some suggestions that they think would
improve the system, like reallocating resources. So Life Shinners will
be right back, and when we get right back, we'll
finish Appner's experience in the foster care and adoption systems.
Welcome back to the show Light Shiners. Make sure you
(22:40):
guys are leaving us one two, three, four, five star
rating reviews on Apple Podcasts, as well as subscribing to
us on Spotify. Also, make sure you're sharing with your
family and friends, and make sure you're checking out my
links and all my bios to support and if you
haven't grabbed book two, order The State Abort the Adoption,
grab it. It's a good read, guys. We've got some
great reviews on it, so we're not without further ado,
I want to reintroduce Abner and their experience in foster care.
(23:04):
So they were sharing with a little bit about some
religious trauma, some isolation that might have caused disassociation. Abner,
do you think that because your foster parents adopted you
and we talked about them stacking, we talked about them,
you know, exaggerating behaviors to get more money, do you
think that this money could be better at a reallocated
(23:24):
and do you think your birth parents could have benefited
from these services or resources.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
My biological mom struggled with addiction, and I think for
a lot of kids in foster care that is that
that's pretty typical. I feel the money that we are
giving to foster parents, outside of very extreme situations where
there is severe abuse happening, I feel that money could
(23:53):
be reallocated to the families, to the biological families to
be able.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
To help with rehab or therapy.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Or a lot of other people turn to drugs simply
because they don't know how to cope with their own traumas.
So I'm a huge advocate of therapy. I have been
in therapy since I was in the military. That's something
I continued to have. I fought to get a therapist
instead of be on medication, and now when I'm outside
(24:22):
of it, the VA thankfully still pays for me to
have therapy and I go see a therapist every week
and I have for years. I think it is incredibly
important for people to have that, and so I feel
that money would be way better reallocated to helping for
mental health resources. And even if it's not drug related,
if it's just because some people can't make enough money,
(24:45):
why are we taking their kids away and giving them
to another family to give them money. Just give the
give the biological family the money instead. They need help
with bills, They need help with groceries, whatever it is
that money can be used so that way they can
stay with their FAMI family and be more stable. They
just need help. They don't need their kids ripped away
from them just because they're struggling.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Early in the conversation, you said that you disconnected with
your adoptive family. What age was that did your? I
know you said that they want to help you with college,
So I'm assuming that they didn't save any of those
stepends for you to help you along or help you
become an adult.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
No, as I turned eighteen and they didn't give me anything.
They took the cell phone that they had given me.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
They took that away.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
That they had bought me a car when I was
seventeen so that way I could go to work.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
They took that away. Funny little anecdote.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
It blew up on them two weeks after they took
it away from me, So that was really fun to
hear about afterwards. Sorry, let me get back on my
train of thought.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Very sorry.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, your adoptive parents after your did they pay? Did
they pay?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
They did not? Yeah, they paid me nothing. They gave
me nothing.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
They literally just I was able to pack my clothing
and get out of the house. The day that it
happened was the day that I asked for them to
co sign a loan for me to go to college.
My mom said that she would have to wait until
our dad got home so she could talk about it
with him, and then very quickly actually devolved from there.
(26:11):
She didn't even wait, she just she kept barging into
our room afterwards to just nitpick something with me and
my sisters. I don't like swimming. She really wanted to
go swimming. And so when she barged into the room
and she's like, I want to go swimming. I know
Abner doesn't want to go swimming, but.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Do you too want to go swimming?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
And I was like, I'm mom, I'm trying to I'm
just trying to get some loans, like that's what I'm
trying to do. And eventually she said that she needed
to talk to me in private and told me that
I needed to either get my act together or leave.
And after list, it was a much longer conversation than that,
and she made some very specific points and it was
(26:50):
just one of those moments where I realized, like, she
does not love me, she does not care about me,
and if I continue to stay here, this is just
going to be more of the same.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
And so I decided, while I've been homeless.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Before, I've lived in cars before, I've slept on the streets,
I've dumped your dive before, I'll do.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
It again without her.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Yeah, And so I said, I think I'm gonna leave,
and her jaw dropped and she's like, you can't be serious.
And I said, I'm gonna leave. And I asked her,
I was like, when do you want me out? And
she said right now. So I called my best friend.
I said, I need you to come pick me up, gathered
all my stuff, left, she gave me nothing. I had
actually left a few things there on accident, and I
was not allowed to return to get them. My siblings
(27:28):
were no longer allowed to talk to me. They would,
of course sneak a couple of messages here and there,
but they would get found out and they'd get grounded,
and it was a whole thing. I found out she
was still hitting my siblings, and I tried to report
her to CPS, but of course there was never ever.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Ah. Ah was a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Like my situation, but I was like fifteen when it
happened with my siblings evidence or whatever. They yeah, you
just don't. They don't care.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Paper trail, that's the word. Yeah, they don't.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
There was never a paper trail, and so, which is
which is funny because I remember them telling my and
I actually I told you on the live when I
was a guest, Like I remember very clearly them telling
my caseworker that they do hit, that they do spank us.
And my my uh caseworker, with her big old key
ringer in her in her hand, just shoved her fingers
into her ears and said, la, la, lah, I don't
(28:16):
hear you. I can't, you can't. They can't stay here
if you spank them. And so, yeah, the caseworker knew.
But when I became eighteen and was ready to finally,
you know, address the issues, there was no pay per trail,
and so it was the start of a pay per trail.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
But I was already out of the house at.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
At that point, so there could no longer continue to
be one other than I said at the one time.
And I'm not with them anymore, so I have no
no evidence of any future.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Have you seen them or have you seen ourselves with them?
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Since she reached out to me months later to apologize.
I listened to her apology. It was very self righteous.
She wanted my forgiveness just so she could feel better
about herself, and I told her I forgave her. But
then it was it kind of ended up being the
same thing I would hear from my siblings that she
(29:06):
was continuing to still do the same stuff she was. Yeah,
she was still being just as vindictive and manipulative.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So I cut ties with her.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I just I didn't want She still tries to reach
out every now and then, and I just have no
interest in continuing a relationship with someone who's only ever
going to apologize so that way they can feel better
and not actually change their behavior. So no, I don't
keep in contact with my adopted family.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
And I don't make Sometimes no contact is the best
contact it is.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I've been It's been a lot less stressful not having
them around. They did actually make my life a little
bit harder when I was trying to join the army
because I needed their information to fill out paperwork, and
I was in the recruiter's office and I called up
my dad to get some information from him, and he
pretended like he didn't know who I was, and I
kept telling I was like, your child, Abner, your child
(29:56):
like and he's like, don't know who that is and
hung up on me. And it wasn't a until the
FBI had to go to them, because yeah, the FBI
had to go to talk to them so that way
I could get a top secret clearance for the job
I was going to do in the military. And then
all of a sudden they change their tune and I'm
a wonderful child. They're so proud of me. They can't
believe I'm doing this, and like it was just.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
It was so fake.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's crazy, that's crazy, Abner. I appreciate you coming onto
the show and sharing. It's so crazy how much our
a lot of adoptees' experiences are so similar, especially with
religious trauma, and then you know with crazy adoptive mothers.
It's always the mothers usually. I don't know why, but
I really appreciate you. I always ask every guest this,
what's one piece of advice that you would give a
foster you who or an adoptee. What's one piece of
(30:41):
advice you would give them if you could give if
you were speaking to them with your lived experience.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Now, my advice to them would be to search out
for your own community. Find the people who actually do
uplift you and support you and encourage you, and stick
with them. They don't have to be your adopted family,
they don't have to be your biological family, for it
is that is showing you love and care and concern.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Stick with them, love.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I love that well. Abner. Thank you so much for
coming on the Ward to This Day podcast and sharing
your lived experience as an adoptee. I hope that you
continue to shine your light and continue to find out
who you are and do things that make you happy
like you're saying, and figuring out what your life is
going to look like even for now in the future.
So thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Thank you. Can I say just one more really quick thing?
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Sure, go ahead. Yeah. On the identity part, I did
end up figuring out my morals, values and ethics, and
I'm living up by them a lot more now. It
turns out, thank you, it turns out I was a
trans age ender kid pan sexual, which never would have
been allowed in that household. I remember actually having a
lot of arguments about homophobia with them, and so I
(31:51):
get to now.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I work for.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
A nonprofit helping trans kids and it's just a joy.
And so yeah, I find found who I was and
how I'm doing work that is meaningful and fulfilling.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
That's amazing. So you're the adult that you needed when
you're an adult that you needed when you were a kid.
We love that, Yes, we love that. Well, you know what,
keep being that adult, Abner, and I can't wait to
have more kids being able to listen to your experience
and know that they're not alone. So thank you for
sharing it. And light shiners, like I say every week,
always share your life because you never know who might
be listening, and you never know who you might inspire.
(32:25):
So and to next week, guys, always shine a light
and we'll see you next time.
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