May 24, 2023 • 40 mins
My personal favorite working screenwriter, Richard Wenk, who wrote Denzel Washington's The Equalizer films (1, 2, and the upcoming 3rd film with Dakota Fanning), joins the show to discuss the incredible power of writing great stories by starting and ending with character. A real peek behind the curtain with an A-list screenwriter at the top of his game, on how he birthed a new franchise. If you're a writer, if you love Denzel Washington, if you love movies, you need to listen to this episode. Massive thanks to Richard for sharing his wisdom on the program.
Trying to figure out, "What should I stream tonight?" Come back to Watch This Tonight as your podcast for the best movie recommendations for what to watch on streaming platforms. Please leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts if you're enjoying the show, and mention a movie or TV show you want me to cover (and I will). Subscribe for future episodes.
Reach out to us @BenamorDan (Twitter), watch_this_tonight (Instagram) or @watchthistonightpodcast (TikTok).
Watch This Tonight is a movie recommendation podcast and TV recommendation podcast, produced by Voyage Media. You can find other Voyage Media podcasts at voyagemedia.fm
Thanks for listening.
Trying to figure out, "What should I stream tonight?" Come back to Watch This Tonight as your podcast for the best movie recommendations for what to watch on streaming platforms. Please leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts if you're enjoying the show, and mention a movie or TV show you want me to cover (and I will). Subscribe for future episodes.
Reach out to us @BenamorDan (Twitter), watch_this_tonight (Instagram) or @watchthistonightpodcast (TikTok).
Watch This Tonight is a movie recommendation podcast and TV recommendation podcast, produced by Voyage Media. You can find other Voyage Media podcasts at voyagemedia.fm
Thanks for listening.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Voyage. Welcome to watch this tonight. I'm your host, Dan Bettimore.
(00:22):
I'm a producer, writer of filmand television and now a podcast producer.
And despite having every streaming service,I never know what to watch. So
anytime I watch something good, Italk about it on this show. This
way, you'll never have the sameproblem I do. I watched this tonight.
There's always something good to watch.Let's get started, all right today
on the show. I am incrediblyexcited to welcome screenwriter Richard Wink to the
(00:44):
program. Richard has written, amongstmany things, Sixteen Blocks, The Mechanic,
all three Equalizer films, The MagnificentSeven, The Protege, You've Got
Fast, Charlie with James conn andhis final film coming up. Welcome to
the show, Richard. Well,thanks for having me and pleasure to be
here. So I wanted to sharewith you why I have. Like I
(01:06):
I the first time I signed withan agent myself as a writer, they
were like, what what do youwant to do? Like, what's your
dream career basically? And I waslike, I basically your career? Like
literally I think at the time,I think at the time Equalizer was just
about to come out and I hadread the script. The script was sort
of passed around, um, youknow, within you know, I came
(01:27):
up with a lot of people whowere like assistance to lit agents and people
like that, and I was adevelopment executive myself, so you could get
your hands on the script. Itwas your script, right and um.
And I remember reading it. Andthere's a moment in the first act of
The Equalizer where Denzel's talking about thehundred books, right and um. And
(01:48):
he talks about that, you know, his wife passed away and he's reading
them now. He didn't have timebefore she died, and now he's reading
them, and he says something effective. And I looked back at it.
Actually, I wouldn't found him.Look back at it. Something effective.
It'll give us something to talk about. And I remember very vividly reading that.
And for me, how I tookit was he's saying that when he
(02:09):
dies and he sees her in theafterlife, the thing that he didn't do
while she was alive, he's doingit now so that he can see her
in the afterlife and be able totalk to her about it. Right.
And I was so moved by that, and I thought it was so beautiful
and it's not like it's in away and this is going to sound like
(02:29):
a really harsh indictment of where we'reat now in film, but in a
way, it's kind of everything that'smissing for me and the majority of films
now in the sort of action thrillerspace is that kind of soul and that
kind of like real like care tocharacter and so anyway, it just had
such a profound I stopped reading thescript, like I read first thirty pages
(02:50):
that it was so good. Iwas like, I don't want to ruin
it for myself and I'll just waitand watch it when it comes out of
a movie. But that was oneof the big things that I wanted to
talk to you about. Is thisidea of the sort of invisible craft,
right, is that, like,that's what I find so impressive at your
writing is that it's not anything flashyor if it's calling attention to itself.
It's just kind of good, clean, old fashioned craft. And the power
(03:14):
of that it's it's it's all comesthrough character. It's it's very difficult to
write. I think we passed inthe eighties and maybe the mid nineties story
movies, you know, where plotdrives the movie and action fits into the
(03:35):
story and it's just you know,some visceral stuff. What's interesting about the
scene you bring up, which isone of my favorite scenes, is that,
Um, he never says his wifedied. She recognizes in his eyes
that he's a widower because he doesn'toffer that, and that is that's the
(03:57):
moment where he can with her,because he doesn't really connect with many people,
right. He's a sort of am a ronan and a guy,
an isolating guy. UM. Verycharming and very fine, but he's got
a past, and he's got whichwe never explained, and he's got he's
(04:18):
reading a book and he only tellsher that after she realizes that he's you
know, because he's got a weddingring, so that she she was able
to see past all that. UMput her in that position where he opened
up a little bit to her andI was able to say that that line
(04:42):
to her. He never says itto anybody else. M The only other
person in the movie that knows whathappened, um was Melissa Leo's character,
Susan Plumber. So um Uh.It's one of those things where the movie
itself and here's maybe something that's interesting. I had have been offered The Equalizer
(05:04):
five years earlier from another producer whowere named nameless because he's in prison,
and I passed because I thought itwas a perfect television show. I thought,
oh, you know, helping peopleand all that other stuff, and
I didn't really like the Jaguar anythingelse. But five years later, Todd
(05:25):
Black and Jason Blumenthal, Escape Artist, called and you know, mentioned that
they had the rights to this andwould i'd be interested in and I said
no. And he said, well, we actually worked with Denzel Washington and
he's agreed to read it without anoffer. And I thought, oh,
(05:46):
well, writing a script that DenzelWashington will read, it's sort of a
step up, isn't it. Right, So so you know, it was
really basically a spec script. Itwas basically And I said to them,
I said, look, the onlything I would keep from that that this
project, which is the title.I wouldn't keep anything else. I said,
(06:08):
I think this is an origin story. I think it's a different character.
I think it's I think it's it'sit's a character driven movie. But
as Sony as as a Sony movie, you know, they want big movies
and they want you know plot,and they want, you know, big
steaks. So what's interesting about whenyou said that you read thirty pages and
(06:30):
you stopped. You don't mind,I'll tell you the story because it's kind
of wild. So I started writingthe movie. In the first fifty pages
are exactly what's in the movie,right word for word, scene for scene,
beat for beat. But then themovie started as I was writing it,
veering into the sony world of youknow, he's chasing an old nemesis,
(06:55):
a terrorist or something or I can'tremember what it was. And I
had written some really great scenes,fall off your chair, scenes they call
him. But it took me downa path I just was bored with.
And I also happened to watch SafeHouse and I thought, hey, it's
kind of the same movie. Allright, it's turning in the same movie.
So I called the producers and Isaid, I got to throw out
(07:16):
these thirty five pages. I'm goingto keep the fifty. I'm going to
start again from there on. Ohyou can't. They're the greatest and the
best and so action. And Idon't know Denzel Washington at this point.
I've never met him. I've neverspoken to him. I just know his
movie. And I said, forwhatever reason, I said, I said,
(07:38):
oh, I think he's going toread the first fifty pages and love
it, and then he's gonna getthe page fifty one. He's gonna throw
it in the pile with all thenose. And that kind of freaked him
out a little bit. And theysaid, all right, we'll tell you
what. We'll make a deal withYou write it how you want to do
it, but if we don't likeit, you have to put that stuff
back in and finish it. Isaid, okay, that's fair. So
(08:01):
I wrote the movie as as you'veseen, as the script as as it
is. That that kept the charactermovie that I loved. So they got
it. They liked it. Theyliked it a lot, and they decided
they gave it to Denzel. Andbecause my manager knows Denzel's agent and I
got him his first job, Igot him his job as an agent,
(08:24):
we were all waiting to see whatDenzel Washington would think of this script.
And this is not I'm not makingany of this up, but yeah,
he called my My agent called Denzel'sagent, said, well, what's happening
and he said, he just calledme and he said, I'm on page
(08:46):
fifty, tell me the next fiftyyear just as good. And he said,
they're better. And he read itand called up Todd and said,
Hi, this is Robert mccaull.When do we art And and he goes,
And by the way, it's nota development deal, it's this is
the script I'm shooting. So again, instinctually, you're right that we were
(09:09):
in a we're in a we're losingsight of the fact that most everything derives
from character. And if you ifyou care about the character, he can
do anything. He can stick acorkscrew in a guy's mouth and and uh
and kill him and women will stilllove him. And so it was a
learning experience for me, you know. I there was my instincts at the
(09:33):
time. I had just done expendablesto um uh and the mechanic um and
uh, well they were they weregood scripts. UM. I was really
looking to do something a little morethat had a little more uh depth to
it, a little more meaning toit, I guess is what I and
(09:56):
I had read in the Wall StreetJournal did a gallop pole that published a
gallop Pole then asked Americans to listthe five things that would make your life
better and it was not. Andhere's the answer. The answer was not
(10:16):
health, it was not wealth,it was not love. It was justice.
And I thought, oh, that'swhat this guy is. He's he's
the guy you want living next doorto you when you can't do something about
something, and he'll do it foryou. And that's a kind of a
wish for filment movie. But youimbew it with a real guy, a
(10:37):
real guy who has a real pastand a real heartache and a real because
violence is he knows secondhand. Butthe other the dealing with his wife and
his and the loss and the ideathat he doesn't know where to put himself.
So the movie really is about bindingyour purpose, right because by the
(11:00):
end of the movie he realizes thisis what I can do, right.
So you picked up on my favoritescene, by the way, So yeah,
you know, it's so interesting theidea of writing for an actor.
I remember I was hired to writesomething for Ken Won Nabe. It was
a Japanese company and the whole thingwas basically, we have to get Ken
(11:22):
Won Nabe. I remember a certainpoint I asked them, I said,
what happens if Ken Wan Nabe doesn'twant to do it? And they said,
well, we don't want to talk, we don't want to think about
that. Yes, and by theway, Kennon Abby said, no,
we did not get made. Butit is interesting that, like, and
for you as a writer too,because I mean, obviously you're you were
(11:43):
incredibly accomplished already by that point,but even still, I would imagine when
you sit down and like, it'salmost like do you have to shut that
part of your brain off where you'relike, I'm writing it for Denzel,
but I don't want it to likeI don't want to be paralyzed by that.
I don't want to let it drivetoo much of what I'm doing.
Or is it the other way?We were like, you're trying to learn
about him and what he would beinto and your sense of him. I
(12:05):
would say it's that it's the latter. Um, I'm not afraid of that.
I in the Mechanic. They theywhen I was brought onto the Mechanic,
they had I think there were thirtyscripts over twenty years that they tried
to do the Mechanic, and theywere they were all over them. I
didn't read them, but I wastold, you know, he was in
the army, he was this andthat. But I'm like, I don't
know what was wrong with the firstmovie. I just think you just need
(12:28):
to update it, and you needto, you know, make character.
And one of the things that theywere running into was that they couldn't cast
the Ben Foster role. It couldn'tget anybody. It was the script they
had just that wasn't any even itand again not making it up. They
said, we really want Ben Fosterfor this part. So I wrote the
(12:48):
part for Ben Foster. I mean, I don't know him, I know
his work, I know what hecan do, I know his what I
see in him when I see inthe movies, and what I suspect he
has in him. And so that'swhat I wrote. I wrote a character
that had enough depth and enough placein the movie that he said yes.
(13:13):
So I don't mind that. Idon't have any problem writing for somebody.
In fact, sometimes it helps,you know, it's funny, it makes
me think of, you know,in my little world. It's the smaller
version of this. We had aproject where we could not cast exactly what
you're describing, Ben Foster, thesecond lead right right. We offered it
to like ten people. They allpassed and Finally I said, all right,
(13:37):
let's rewrite the introduction scene. We'llleave the rest of it the same,
but let's just rewrite the introduction scene. And it was a Western,
but I basically did the scene fromThe Godfather when James conn beats up the
guy who's hidden woman. Right,And even though this was a villain,
that to introduce him that way witha scene that you actually were kind of
rooting for him. And the nextperson we offered it to say yes,
which was Round Probleman and he wasgreat in the movie. But yeah,
(14:01):
it's so interesting that I think thatan underrated part of this, and obviously
a great skill of yours, isit's all predicated on getting the star to
say yes, right, bottom line, that's what runs the bottom line.
There's the bottom line. And soit's like, if you have if you
can get to a place where youcan write the role that will get the
(14:22):
star to say yes, that isan invaluable skill. And do you think
that there's anything that people sort ofdon't like? The big thing that comes
to mind for me is like,I do think that there is a misconception
that stars want to play the coolestguy, right, he's perfect he's awesome,
And I think it's quite the opposite. I think the most good actors
(14:45):
want to play somebody who's not thatand they I think they want to play
a real person and they want toflaws and all right and a well written
character. Also, they don't wantto play the same character, you know,
the good actors, right, Um, you know, you don't see
Denzel playing you know, other thanan Equalizer's trilogy. He basically you know,
(15:09):
he goes from plight to you know, unstoppable to this and that you
know, he finds something that interestshim, um that he hasn't done before,
Um that he can um flex hismuscle. Song. So I think
a lot of good actors, TomHanks and Robert Downey and go on to
Leonardo and all those, all thoseguys, Brad, they want to play
(15:35):
a part that that has depth andrichness, But they also don't want to
play the same guy. And that'ssome of the mistakes they make. It.
We'll get Brad because he did weknow he can do it, and
he goes, well, you're notgoing to do it. He doesn't need
to do it, and um,so it's it's a it's a it's It's
one of the things I always tellyoung screenwriters. It's like, when you
(15:56):
start to write a script, who'sin it? Because that's all that's gonna
matter in the end, right,I mean, it's got to be good,
and it's got to be a goodstory. It's got to work structurally,
it's got to have, you know, a story or the structure that
that's interesting in the world, that'sinteresting. But ultimately speaking, who's gonna
(16:17):
be in it? Who's gonna playthis guy or that girl? And um
uh And if you don't think aboutthat, um, you're doing yourself a
disservice, I think, because it'sjust the way the industry works. It's
it is, it is what itis. There's um there's a movie that
they made in twenty twenty one.It's called Without Remorse, and it was
(16:37):
um. One of the writers wasTaylor Sheridan, directed by Stefano Soldim I
was an incredible director, starring MichaelJordan. A lot of really really talented
people worked on this movie. Andyou know, anybody who works in our
business notes that, like, youcannot judge the final film. You don't
know what was in the script wouldchange, all right, But I remember
watching that movie, which I wasvery excited for it, and everything that
(17:00):
didn't work about that movie to meis everything that works about your writing,
which is to say that that moviefelt impersonal money. I don't know what
it was really like about underneath theplot. I had no investment in the
character. And on the surface,if you just tell somebody this is what
happens in the movie, you'd think, well, why doesn't that work?
(17:22):
That seems like that would work.But where do you think people sort of
lose their way with that stuff whereit can well. Audiences truly don't care
about plot. It's white noise tothem. They once you attach yourself to
a person, a real human being, you can take them anywhere and you
can go through anything. But theydidn't do that in that movie, right.
(17:42):
It was just a very visceral actione Tom Clancy kind of you know,
cool stuff with nobody in it.Just an empty movie in the end,
right, because it was they focusedon that. And I just think
it's that those those days again,back in the eighties and the nineties were
(18:03):
now that those movies did well.Um, but I think the audiences are
smarter today. They want to invest, they want to feel, they want
to They want to be a partof right. And they're not a part
of like you know, heists andthings. They're they're part of human beings
and why there's why this guy isdoing heist or why this guy is you
(18:27):
know, working in home Mark andall this stuff there's and by the way,
the other the other thing that alot of movies don't do is they
don't have any mystery, and theaudience is interestingly enough. You know,
I was fortunate to be on theset and to work with Denzel and work
(18:48):
with Antoine on all the movies,and been to the editing room and said
at all the test screenings and onthe first equalizer they tested at once and
it scored so high that they itwas the highest R rated movie in Sony
history. They locked it. Butwhen the focus group happened, one of
(19:11):
their favorite things was they didn't knowstuff. They didn't know what he did
in the past, They didn't knowwhat happened to his wife. Did she
get killed, did she died ofof of sickness? How long ago?
All that stuff. They loved thatpart of it because their imagination there,
(19:32):
we've all experienced loss, we've allall experienced heartbreak, and we're watching a
man with whose heart is broken soin in that part of his life,
so that they can identify with that, especially women. They were the highest
scoring people and yet he was.It was the most violent movie, you
(19:53):
know, compared to most of themovies I've done. So Antoine is genius
at at at violent. It's inaction. Um. But yet the women
forgave that part because of that.So I think that when you when you
do these movies, uh, andthey come to you and they say,
hey, we want to do youknow a guy about a hitman or something,
(20:17):
It's like, well, you know, none of us are hitman and
none of us you know, havekilled anybody. Most of us anybody,
Um, I happen't. But um, what they can attach themselves to is
the human nature of the of theirlives, right. Um. They're their
(20:37):
own personal issues and their own thehurdles to overcome that we have to overcome.
Um, you forget that. Andif you if you do forget it,
you you you're you're You've done yourself. You're down on the ladder a
little bit, and you're gonna it'sgonna be hard to keep the audience engaged.
(20:57):
Yeah, it's so interesting that forthe third Equalizer, Dakota has reunited
with Denzel because Man on Fire istotally a movie where if I blink,
I just think you wrote it likeit's like it really feels like of a
piece with a lot of the stuffthat you've done. It's my one of
my favorite movies, and Brian Heavilynis one of my favorite writers. So
(21:19):
it was really remarkable to watch themtogether, the ease in which they and
also the history because there's a there'sa twist to her character that I don't
think you see coming that connects everything. And so again, she could have
(21:45):
been just a CIA agent working onus, be part of the story and
probably would have passed. But shewasn't. Just that she was something else.
So again, part of my jobis to make sure or try to
make sure that there's there's things inthere, there's tasty things in there for
(22:08):
them to hook onto and to playum. And it's the one thing that
a lot of writers either forget ordon't do. And uh, and then
you get you know, those thoseAmazon movies or those you know movies,
and you just go, I canI can stop this anywhere and pick it
up anywhere. It's just I wantto make sure I touched on something you
(22:29):
said earlier, which is about notexplaining everything. And you know, I
mean I personally think this whole narrativethat like, oh, development executives give
stupid notes or whatever is way overblown. And I you know, I've known
a ton of really smart development executives, but I will say that a note
that is very common that you'll getfrom either producers you're working with or executives
or whatever, is like, well, so can you so how come how
(22:52):
come this happen? How come thathappen? Or should we make it more
that? Yeah? And so howdo you sort of a key too that?
Right? Because you don't want tosuddenly be like, well, let's
have a scene or we explain whythis guy bought a pink shirt. You
know, like let's say I'm goingto the store picking out the Well,
(23:12):
I've been fortunate that a Equaliser wasa spec script, so they didn't have
any say. They basically got ascript with a star and a budget and
producers and do you want to makeit or not? And you know,
God bless Denzel Washington and who saidthat's I'm making that movie not don't don't
start bucking with it. So um, same with the second one. They
(23:36):
basically greenlit a develop you know,the development of the second movie on the
night of the test screening of thefirst movie. And I had already in
my head had seen realized that themovie, if there was going to be
And by the way, Denzel hasnever done a sequel to anything and was
not going to do a sequel toDequalizer. And except what he told me
(23:57):
was, well, you know,the only people are going to tell us
anything of the audience that they wantto see him again. And I said,
well, all all characters, allmost of the movies other than like
A Mission Impossible James Bond, likeBorn m I'm forgetting a few you want
to see them again. Right,It's not so much the story or the
(24:19):
world or anything else. You wantto see Jason Bourne and what happens to
him, and and and and that'swhy you keep going back to see those
movies, because they're so well donein terms of character and in terms of
investing in that character. So youknow that that's again, you know,
every every studio wants a franchise,every studio wants you know, uh,
(24:44):
you know, a tent pole orwhatever that they can do, you know,
three or four of them. Um. But you know, other than
a Marvel movie, you you basicallyyou're you better write a character they want
to see again. Um. Andthat's that. That, fortunately, was
what happened, you know, wasn'tin my mind. I had three in
(25:07):
my head. I had three Ihad. I had he finds his purpose,
he finds his peace, and inthe third one he finds his place
at home. So that was sortof in my head. If I could
tell this story in in in threemovies, that's how it would be.
And fortunately that's how it is.Um, just got fortunate. They don't
(25:32):
always happen that way. And it'snot because of anything much I did,
other than I think people want tosee him. They want to see him
do those things. They want tosee what happened to him and where he
is now. I mean, he'sa limp driver now, right, doesn't
even work at home, already destroyedit. So where does he do now
he's a limp driver. Well,that's great because he gets to meet people
(25:53):
in the backseat and he gets tohelp people. So it's it's it's one
of those things where in terms ofthe studio executives. Yes, I got
a lot of that on Craven becausethat was assignment, and I just didn't
do it. I just I justI just didn't write it. And they
(26:15):
kept saying, well, you know, we're gonna tell this back then I'm
like, first of all, Idon't even like the character. We're gonna
have to change the character. We'regonna have to make them something different,
you know, And I did.I rewrote the mythology of Craven the Hunter.
Um I got fired, I gotreplaced. Let's say I got replaced
on that movie by who knows howmany people. And I don't even know
(26:40):
how the movie. It's coming outthis year, I think, so I'm
interested to see what they did withit. But um, I just didn't
do it. I can't do it. I don't. I don't believe in
it. And I don't think anywriter should write something because somebody said we
need to have that. Because Idid get a lot of notes like that,
what's the back where's their backstory?Right, I'm like, I don't
(27:00):
think I care about it. Backstory, Yeah, right, I don't know
Jason Bourne's backstory till the final movie. Till the final scenes in the final
movie. Yeah. Oh so,and that kept me wanting to see more.
Yeah. Um, I have thisthing I've I've talked about this show
before about dad movies, movies thatyour dad would would watch, and I
would say, you're almost like theking of dad movies. Stuff that you
(27:22):
made. I think it's a goodthing. Okay, did your dad get
to watch like when you as youstarted to have success, did your get
dad get to watch these movies thatyou made? You got to see them?
He got all the way up tothe first Equalizer. He was at
the premiere in New York at Equalizer. So that that's that that meant a
lot to me. You know,he got to go to see sixteen Blocks,
(27:44):
which is the white personal favorite movieand uh an Equalizer. Um so
he saw the you know, thethe progress that I made through the years
as a screenwriter. That's bright.Yeah yeah yeah. So as we um
I was gonna, I had hada question written down to say, oh,
(28:07):
you know, it's pretty cool thatyou managed to be the soul writer
and all these movies and obviously mentionedthat you were U. It's interesting I've
noticed I interviewed the guys who wrotethis Apple plus a movie called Sharper,
and I asked them about rewrites andyou know, staying on the whole time,
and because it's a big cast,a lot of stars and stuff,
and they were like, yeah,Julianne Moore. They're like, that's the
answer. Basically, Julianne Moore hadour back from day one. That's the
(28:30):
reason that they shopped our script.They didn't fuck with it. And I've
heard this story again and again,right the value of having your champion that
nobody can mess with for you asa writer, the value of that to
you and getting your vision out there. I think there's more to it.
I think that well. First ofall, I started out as a director,
right I started directed Roger Carman movie, and then I directed an independent
(28:53):
movie with Any Garcia and Any McDowell. So I immediately was already a collaborative
kind of person. So I'm notprecious about anything I write. If the
one has a better idea or bumpingfor I would sit with Denzel on an
equalizer every day for six weeks andhe would come to my little cardboard desk
(29:14):
and he'd sit down and he'd pullout the first draft. Now there's been
four or five different drafts based onbudget and schedules and everything else. And
he'd go through it and he'd say, you know what happened to this?
And I said, well, theydidn't want to pay for the softball uniforms.
He just got up out of hischair and walked over there. He
just came back, sat down andsaid, it's okay, softball's back in
(29:37):
it. And by the way,I think there's so there's that, but
there's also the idea that you're acollaborative person. I think people can tell
that you're not. A lot ofpeople are afraid of writers. That's why
they're not on the sets. That'snot why they're not invited into the editing
room or you know, having youknow anything. They feel they're precious about
(29:57):
their stuff, and sometimes they shouldbe. Sometimes, you know, directors
and and people will will mess withtheir movie and it's bad choices. Um.
But by most part, if you'reif you're a collaborative, you get
to participate in that dialogue. SoI always would go to Denzel's house and
(30:18):
sit there and we go to thescript and he would say, I don't
understand this. How do I playthis? I say, well, I
don't know how do you play that? And he goes, well, you
can't play that. I said,how do I play? I think this
and I'm like this, and I'mlike oh, I said, well,
that's really written for the studios,so they understand it. You can do
(30:41):
whatever you want, right, butwhen I write it, so there's two
scripts. There's a script that theythey read and they they read and they
green light, and then there there'sa script that they made, So you
have to understand that when you're writingit. Like I don't say I write
uh scripts, I write movies.When I when you've read I guess Equalizer,
it reads like a movie, doesn'tread like a script. I don't
(31:04):
use a lot of exterior interior,you know, those kind of things,
cut twos and stuff like that.It reads sort of like you know,
I'm telling your story. It's veryclean. It's clean and visual and has
visceral stuff in it, and thefight, the action has emotion and it's
clean and like you said, so, I'm thinking of it as a movie,
(31:26):
not as a script. And Iused to write them as scripts.
I used to write them as Istarted out. You'd write these movies for
the executives, just like the scripts. They read, and I realized I
was just doing myself at the servicebecause they all read the same. Soon
as you just say exterior Broadway,everybody sees the same Broadway. But if
(31:49):
you describe your Broadway right in adifferent way and you don't say broadway,
you say, you know the manwith the push card is going down the
street, that the band with thepush guard is your is your slugline?
I want to read, what doesthat mean? Where is he? And
then you suddenly realize he's in NewYork City and he's so I think that
(32:10):
that's a skill that people learn.I just read a lot of scripts Coen
Brothers, um m m knight.I love his work. He uses no
descriptions in his scripts, so Ikind of call from people, even William
Goldman, who who is the kingof that right? You know? It
(32:31):
basically reads like a movie. Yea. And so I realized that when you
do yourself a serve when you startwriting him like final draft scripts, yea.
And by the way, so that'sthe movie that they that's the thing
they get and they say, wow, this is a great movie. Let's
let's let's get you know, ChrisPratt to be in it. You know,
(32:52):
and and then you have to goback and you start making it into
the you know, the the mechanicalversion of it, right, who already
to put in next two years andthey do all that for you. Yeah,
but so there's two versions, anddon't be afraid of writing it that
way because every executive, every studiochief, and every per actor appreciates that
(33:17):
reading something that's readable. Yeah,it's opposed to things I've read. It
just seems this looks like everything elseI've read it. So yeah, I
think you know something you mentioned earlier, maybe as far as like working with
the actors and stuff. It reallymade me think of the most recent episode
of Succession. There's a moment whereShip is talking to her mom and she's
(33:38):
a strange from her mom. Shehadn't seen her wife yes, and the
mom comes up to her and shegoes, oh. A Ship kind of
like reacts and it's like oh,And basically what she's saying is, I
can tell you're pregnant immediately. Idon't need you to tell me. I
don't need you to do it.Immediate's by looking at you, I can
tell you're pregnant. And no,no point in their conversation is the word
(34:00):
pregnancy, baby, anything used,And it's so like, you really have
to have confidence in yourself as awriter in the actors. But they can
do that. They don't need youto say, you know, like mom,
I'm pregnant, right, Like,so that of doing less, of
the confidence to do less basically,and also the confidence to listen to the
(34:22):
actors. Again on the first Equalizer, Melissa Leo came in maybe three weeks
into our shooting and came into thecame to the monitors and sat next to
me, and she said, Ilove the script and everything. I want
to talk to you about something.And I said, I know I have
to do and she does if youwatch the movie, she I know I
(34:44):
have to deliver all this exposition,right, She yes, she's the one
who basically tells us everything about Teddyand Pushkin and all whatever that stuff is.
And she goes, I just Ijust would like it to feel because
I know him more familiar. Right. That was her. That was her
comment to me. And I wenthome to my hotel and I rewrote that
(35:09):
stuff right with that in my mind, and I sent it to her and
I can't tell you how delighted shewas hugged me. That someone listened to
her and did it and understood it. And that's my job, right,
She's an Academy Award winning actress.It's my job to listen to her.
(35:30):
She instinctually is going, I cansay this, but it's it's pretty dry,
and you're missing the fact that I'veworked with this man for you know,
twenty years, so we don't haveto say it like this. I
can say it very shorthandedly. Andso that's my You know, again,
(35:50):
a lot of writers don't get thatopportunity. They're not around. You know
that the movie goes on without them, and they shoot it and they change
it and they do stuff, andactors changed it and and you're not there.
But if you get the opportunity tobe there, and if you are
collaborative and not precious, that's theother part of your job is so listen,
right. The Denzel doesn't want tosay that I had a line I
(36:14):
used and I had to take itout of Equalizer and put it in Jack
Reacher because he wouldn't say it.And that was when they kept asking him
who who are you and right?And the answer was I'm the guy he
didn't count them right, and hesaid an that sounds like a Bruce Willis
line. I said, no,no, it's good, it's good.
So he did it once and helooked at me, said that's for you,
(36:35):
but I do it again. It'snot in the movie, but it's
it's in the opening scene in JackReacher. Interesting. Yeah, so so
you but you But but I listened. It wasn't like I got all hissy
about it and said, you know, you're ruining the movie. You know,
that's the great line and everything else, and it's like he doesn't want
to say it. It's Denzel Washington. He's the greatest actor of the twentieth
(36:58):
century. I think he would knowmore than me. So before we wrap
up, because I so appreciate yourtime. I'm very excited obviously to see
Budge with three, but I mightbe equally excited, frankly, to see
James Cohn's last role, because Iremember James conn before he died, he
was interviewed and somebody asked him.He was like, I just want one
more, like I can really act, because you know, he had gotten
(37:20):
to a point in his career werejust sort of doing low budget movies and
you got the sense he wasn't gettingthe opportunity. Have you You presumably have
seen the movie Fast Charted and that'shis last performance, right, yes,
wow. Um, I can tellyou that he's brilliant in it. I
can tell you that it was tailormade for him. I fought very hard.
(37:42):
I want to say. Originally theywere trying to cajole Morgan Freeman to
play the role. And I loveMorgan Freeman. In fact, I met
with Morgan Freeman on sixteen Blocks whenwe were going to make the most death
character older and delightful. Man issuper smart. But I just kept feeling
(38:06):
like, you know, he's comingin for you know, a week,
and you know I've seen him comein for a week, and I think
there's something more interestful. And Isuggested Jimmy Cohn. I didn't know what
how his health was, and itwasn't great. Um. And I just
hung up yesterday with Pierce Brosnan,who who saw the movie and loved it
(38:30):
and was so touched by the scenesbetween them. He's he's, it's it's
I don't know. It's weirdly theprobably the perfect role for him at this
time, because he was telling Piercehe goes he said I'm headed to the
dark side Pierce, and Pierce keptsaying, I think we should finish the
(38:50):
movie and have some tea, andyou know, you know all the stuff.
But he knew and yet that's partof the character. That part of
the character he had samentha and andand um, you know, it was
a almost a father son relationship.Even though that Pierce was older, it
was he was his like father figure. And um, he was so kind
(39:13):
to a man who didn't remember thator that. So he's he's just you're
gonna love it. You're gonna loveseeing him in that movie. Um uh.
It isn't one of those parts thatyou go, oh, you know,
it's one of those parts of Wow, I wish I wish he's still
here. I wish he could dosome more. That's great, man,
I mean you really that's cool.Like you made his That's what he wanted.
(39:36):
I mean explicitly said, he's like, before I die, I just
want to do one more. Ireally get to act. So I'm so
glad you know you're able to dothat for him. It's great. Yeah,
yeah, it was wonderful to watchhim and it's just fantastic. Richard.
I don't want to take up anymore your time, man, I
really really appreciate it. That isthe show for today. I don't need
to tell anybody that Equalija three's comingout. I'm sure people will be aware
(39:58):
of it of So yeah, thankyou so much for coming on the show.
And that is the podcast for today. Thank you for having me.
M m m h, m hmm h, m hm m m h
Voyage. Welcome to watch this tonight. I'm your host, Dan Bettimore.
(00:22):
I'm a producer, writer of filmand television and now a podcast producer.
And despite having every streaming service,I never know what to watch. So
anytime I watch something good, Italk about it on this show. This
way, you'll never have the sameproblem I do. I watched this tonight.
There's always something good to watch.Let's get started, all right today
on the show. I am incrediblyexcited to welcome screenwriter Richard Wink to the
(00:44):
program. Richard has written, amongstmany things, Sixteen Blocks, The Mechanic,
all three Equalizer films, The MagnificentSeven, The Protege, You've Got
Fast, Charlie with James conn andhis final film coming up. Welcome to
the show, Richard. Well,thanks for having me and pleasure to be
here. So I wanted to sharewith you why I have. Like I
(01:06):
I the first time I signed withan agent myself as a writer, they
were like, what what do youwant to do? Like, what's your
dream career basically? And I waslike, I basically your career? Like
literally I think at the time,I think at the time Equalizer was just
about to come out and I hadread the script. The script was sort
of passed around, um, youknow, within you know, I came
(01:27):
up with a lot of people whowere like assistance to lit agents and people
like that, and I was adevelopment executive myself, so you could get
your hands on the script. Itwas your script, right and um.
And I remember reading it. Andthere's a moment in the first act of
The Equalizer where Denzel's talking about thehundred books, right and um. And
(01:48):
he talks about that, you know, his wife passed away and he's reading
them now. He didn't have timebefore she died, and now he's reading
them, and he says something effective. And I looked back at it.
Actually, I wouldn't found him.Look back at it. Something effective.
It'll give us something to talk about. And I remember very vividly reading that.
And for me, how I tookit was he's saying that when he
(02:09):
dies and he sees her in theafterlife, the thing that he didn't do
while she was alive, he's doingit now so that he can see her
in the afterlife and be able totalk to her about it. Right.
And I was so moved by that, and I thought it was so beautiful
and it's not like it's in away and this is going to sound like
(02:29):
a really harsh indictment of where we'reat now in film, but in a
way, it's kind of everything that'smissing for me and the majority of films
now in the sort of action thrillerspace is that kind of soul and that
kind of like real like care tocharacter and so anyway, it just had
such a profound I stopped reading thescript, like I read first thirty pages
(02:50):
that it was so good. Iwas like, I don't want to ruin
it for myself and I'll just waitand watch it when it comes out of
a movie. But that was oneof the big things that I wanted to
talk to you about. Is thisidea of the sort of invisible craft,
right, is that, like,that's what I find so impressive at your
writing is that it's not anything flashyor if it's calling attention to itself.
It's just kind of good, clean, old fashioned craft. And the power
(03:14):
of that it's it's it's all comesthrough character. It's it's very difficult to
write. I think we passed inthe eighties and maybe the mid nineties story
movies, you know, where plotdrives the movie and action fits into the
(03:35):
story and it's just you know,some visceral stuff. What's interesting about the
scene you bring up, which isone of my favorite scenes, is that,
Um, he never says his wifedied. She recognizes in his eyes
that he's a widower because he doesn'toffer that, and that is that's the
(03:57):
moment where he can with her,because he doesn't really connect with many people,
right. He's a sort of am a ronan and a guy,
an isolating guy. UM. Verycharming and very fine, but he's got
a past, and he's got whichwe never explained, and he's got he's
(04:18):
reading a book and he only tellsher that after she realizes that he's you
know, because he's got a weddingring, so that she she was able
to see past all that. UMput her in that position where he opened
up a little bit to her andI was able to say that that line
(04:42):
to her. He never says itto anybody else. M The only other
person in the movie that knows whathappened, um was Melissa Leo's character,
Susan Plumber. So um Uh.It's one of those things where the movie
itself and here's maybe something that's interesting. I had have been offered The Equalizer
(05:04):
five years earlier from another producer whowere named nameless because he's in prison,
and I passed because I thought itwas a perfect television show. I thought,
oh, you know, helping peopleand all that other stuff, and
I didn't really like the Jaguar anythingelse. But five years later, Todd
(05:25):
Black and Jason Blumenthal, Escape Artist, called and you know, mentioned that
they had the rights to this andwould i'd be interested in and I said
no. And he said, well, we actually worked with Denzel Washington and
he's agreed to read it without anoffer. And I thought, oh,
(05:46):
well, writing a script that DenzelWashington will read, it's sort of a
step up, isn't it. Right, So so you know, it was
really basically a spec script. Itwas basically And I said to them,
I said, look, the onlything I would keep from that that this
project, which is the title.I wouldn't keep anything else. I said,
(06:08):
I think this is an origin story. I think it's a different character.
I think it's I think it's it'sit's a character driven movie. But
as Sony as as a Sony movie, you know, they want big movies
and they want you know plot,and they want, you know, big
steaks. So what's interesting about whenyou said that you read thirty pages and
(06:30):
you stopped. You don't mind,I'll tell you the story because it's kind
of wild. So I started writingthe movie. In the first fifty pages
are exactly what's in the movie,right word for word, scene for scene,
beat for beat. But then themovie started as I was writing it,
veering into the sony world of youknow, he's chasing an old nemesis,
(06:55):
a terrorist or something or I can'tremember what it was. And I
had written some really great scenes,fall off your chair, scenes they call
him. But it took me downa path I just was bored with.
And I also happened to watch SafeHouse and I thought, hey, it's
kind of the same movie. Allright, it's turning in the same movie.
So I called the producers and Isaid, I got to throw out
(07:16):
these thirty five pages. I'm goingto keep the fifty. I'm going to
start again from there on. Ohyou can't. They're the greatest and the
best and so action. And Idon't know Denzel Washington at this point.
I've never met him. I've neverspoken to him. I just know his
movie. And I said, forwhatever reason, I said, I said,
(07:38):
oh, I think he's going toread the first fifty pages and love
it, and then he's gonna getthe page fifty one. He's gonna throw
it in the pile with all thenose. And that kind of freaked him
out a little bit. And theysaid, all right, we'll tell you
what. We'll make a deal withYou write it how you want to do
it, but if we don't likeit, you have to put that stuff
back in and finish it. Isaid, okay, that's fair. So
(08:01):
I wrote the movie as as you'veseen, as the script as as it
is. That that kept the charactermovie that I loved. So they got
it. They liked it. Theyliked it a lot, and they decided
they gave it to Denzel. Andbecause my manager knows Denzel's agent and I
got him his first job, Igot him his job as an agent,
(08:24):
we were all waiting to see whatDenzel Washington would think of this script.
And this is not I'm not makingany of this up, but yeah,
he called my My agent called Denzel'sagent, said, well, what's happening
and he said, he just calledme and he said, I'm on page
(08:46):
fifty, tell me the next fiftyyear just as good. And he said,
they're better. And he read itand called up Todd and said,
Hi, this is Robert mccaull.When do we art And and he goes,
And by the way, it's nota development deal, it's this is
the script I'm shooting. So again, instinctually, you're right that we were
(09:09):
in a we're in a we're losingsight of the fact that most everything derives
from character. And if you ifyou care about the character, he can
do anything. He can stick acorkscrew in a guy's mouth and and uh
and kill him and women will stilllove him. And so it was a
learning experience for me, you know. I there was my instincts at the
(09:33):
time. I had just done expendablesto um uh and the mechanic um and
uh, well they were they weregood scripts. UM. I was really
looking to do something a little morethat had a little more uh depth to
it, a little more meaning toit, I guess is what I and
(09:56):
I had read in the Wall StreetJournal did a gallop pole that published a
gallop Pole then asked Americans to listthe five things that would make your life
better and it was not. Andhere's the answer. The answer was not
(10:16):
health, it was not wealth,it was not love. It was justice.
And I thought, oh, that'swhat this guy is. He's he's
the guy you want living next doorto you when you can't do something about
something, and he'll do it foryou. And that's a kind of a
wish for filment movie. But youimbew it with a real guy, a
(10:37):
real guy who has a real pastand a real heartache and a real because
violence is he knows secondhand. Butthe other the dealing with his wife and
his and the loss and the ideathat he doesn't know where to put himself.
So the movie really is about bindingyour purpose, right because by the
(11:00):
end of the movie he realizes thisis what I can do, right.
So you picked up on my favoritescene, by the way, So yeah,
you know, it's so interesting theidea of writing for an actor.
I remember I was hired to writesomething for Ken Won Nabe. It was
a Japanese company and the whole thingwas basically, we have to get Ken
(11:22):
Won Nabe. I remember a certainpoint I asked them, I said,
what happens if Ken Wan Nabe doesn'twant to do it? And they said,
well, we don't want to talk, we don't want to think about
that. Yes, and by theway, Kennon Abby said, no,
we did not get made. Butit is interesting that, like, and
for you as a writer too,because I mean, obviously you're you were
(11:43):
incredibly accomplished already by that point,but even still, I would imagine when
you sit down and like, it'salmost like do you have to shut that
part of your brain off where you'relike, I'm writing it for Denzel,
but I don't want it to likeI don't want to be paralyzed by that.
I don't want to let it drivetoo much of what I'm doing.
Or is it the other way?We were like, you're trying to learn
about him and what he would beinto and your sense of him. I
(12:05):
would say it's that it's the latter. Um, I'm not afraid of that.
I in the Mechanic. They theywhen I was brought onto the Mechanic,
they had I think there were thirtyscripts over twenty years that they tried
to do the Mechanic, and theywere they were all over them. I
didn't read them, but I wastold, you know, he was in
the army, he was this andthat. But I'm like, I don't
know what was wrong with the firstmovie. I just think you just need
(12:28):
to update it, and you needto, you know, make character.
And one of the things that theywere running into was that they couldn't cast
the Ben Foster role. It couldn'tget anybody. It was the script they
had just that wasn't any even itand again not making it up. They
said, we really want Ben Fosterfor this part. So I wrote the
(12:48):
part for Ben Foster. I mean, I don't know him, I know
his work, I know what hecan do, I know his what I
see in him when I see inthe movies, and what I suspect he
has in him. And so that'swhat I wrote. I wrote a character
that had enough depth and enough placein the movie that he said yes.
(13:13):
So I don't mind that. Idon't have any problem writing for somebody.
In fact, sometimes it helps,you know, it's funny, it makes
me think of, you know,in my little world. It's the smaller
version of this. We had aproject where we could not cast exactly what
you're describing, Ben Foster, thesecond lead right right. We offered it
to like ten people. They allpassed and Finally I said, all right,
(13:37):
let's rewrite the introduction scene. We'llleave the rest of it the same,
but let's just rewrite the introduction scene. And it was a Western,
but I basically did the scene fromThe Godfather when James conn beats up the
guy who's hidden woman. Right,And even though this was a villain,
that to introduce him that way witha scene that you actually were kind of
rooting for him. And the nextperson we offered it to say yes,
which was Round Probleman and he wasgreat in the movie. But yeah,
(14:01):
it's so interesting that I think thatan underrated part of this, and obviously
a great skill of yours, isit's all predicated on getting the star to
say yes, right, bottom line, that's what runs the bottom line.
There's the bottom line. And soit's like, if you have if you
can get to a place where youcan write the role that will get the
(14:22):
star to say yes, that isan invaluable skill. And do you think
that there's anything that people sort ofdon't like? The big thing that comes
to mind for me is like,I do think that there is a misconception
that stars want to play the coolestguy, right, he's perfect he's awesome,
And I think it's quite the opposite. I think the most good actors
(14:45):
want to play somebody who's not thatand they I think they want to play
a real person and they want toflaws and all right and a well written
character. Also, they don't wantto play the same character, you know,
the good actors, right, Um, you know, you don't see
Denzel playing you know, other thanan Equalizer's trilogy. He basically you know,
(15:09):
he goes from plight to you know, unstoppable to this and that you
know, he finds something that interestshim, um that he hasn't done before,
Um that he can um flex hismuscle. Song. So I think
a lot of good actors, TomHanks and Robert Downey and go on to
Leonardo and all those, all thoseguys, Brad, they want to play
(15:35):
a part that that has depth andrichness, But they also don't want to
play the same guy. And that'ssome of the mistakes they make. It.
We'll get Brad because he did weknow he can do it, and
he goes, well, you're notgoing to do it. He doesn't need
to do it, and um,so it's it's a it's a it's It's
one of the things I always tellyoung screenwriters. It's like, when you
(15:56):
start to write a script, who'sin it? Because that's all that's gonna
matter in the end, right,I mean, it's got to be good,
and it's got to be a goodstory. It's got to work structurally,
it's got to have, you know, a story or the structure that
that's interesting in the world, that'sinteresting. But ultimately speaking, who's gonna
(16:17):
be in it? Who's gonna playthis guy or that girl? And um
uh And if you don't think aboutthat, um, you're doing yourself a
disservice, I think, because it'sjust the way the industry works. It's
it is, it is what itis. There's um there's a movie that
they made in twenty twenty one.It's called Without Remorse, and it was
(16:37):
um. One of the writers wasTaylor Sheridan, directed by Stefano Soldim I
was an incredible director, starring MichaelJordan. A lot of really really talented
people worked on this movie. Andyou know, anybody who works in our
business notes that, like, youcannot judge the final film. You don't
know what was in the script wouldchange, all right, But I remember
watching that movie, which I wasvery excited for it, and everything that
(17:00):
didn't work about that movie to meis everything that works about your writing,
which is to say that that moviefelt impersonal money. I don't know what
it was really like about underneath theplot. I had no investment in the
character. And on the surface,if you just tell somebody this is what
happens in the movie, you'd think, well, why doesn't that work?
(17:22):
That seems like that would work.But where do you think people sort of
lose their way with that stuff whereit can well. Audiences truly don't care
about plot. It's white noise tothem. They once you attach yourself to
a person, a real human being, you can take them anywhere and you
can go through anything. But theydidn't do that in that movie, right.
(17:42):
It was just a very visceral actione Tom Clancy kind of you know,
cool stuff with nobody in it.Just an empty movie in the end,
right, because it was they focusedon that. And I just think
it's that those those days again,back in the eighties and the nineties were
(18:03):
now that those movies did well.Um, but I think the audiences are
smarter today. They want to invest, they want to feel, they want
to They want to be a partof right. And they're not a part
of like you know, heists andthings. They're they're part of human beings
and why there's why this guy isdoing heist or why this guy is you
(18:27):
know, working in home Mark andall this stuff there's and by the way,
the other the other thing that alot of movies don't do is they
don't have any mystery, and theaudience is interestingly enough. You know,
I was fortunate to be on theset and to work with Denzel and work
(18:48):
with Antoine on all the movies,and been to the editing room and said
at all the test screenings and onthe first equalizer they tested at once and
it scored so high that they itwas the highest R rated movie in Sony
history. They locked it. Butwhen the focus group happened, one of
(19:11):
their favorite things was they didn't knowstuff. They didn't know what he did
in the past, They didn't knowwhat happened to his wife. Did she
get killed, did she died ofof of sickness? How long ago?
All that stuff. They loved thatpart of it because their imagination there,
(19:32):
we've all experienced loss, we've allall experienced heartbreak, and we're watching a
man with whose heart is broken soin in that part of his life,
so that they can identify with that, especially women. They were the highest
scoring people and yet he was.It was the most violent movie, you
(19:53):
know, compared to most of themovies I've done. So Antoine is genius
at at at violent. It's inaction. Um. But yet the women
forgave that part because of that.So I think that when you when you
do these movies, uh, andthey come to you and they say,
hey, we want to do youknow a guy about a hitman or something,
(20:17):
It's like, well, you know, none of us are hitman and
none of us you know, havekilled anybody. Most of us anybody,
Um, I happen't. But um, what they can attach themselves to is
the human nature of the of theirlives, right. Um. They're their
(20:37):
own personal issues and their own thehurdles to overcome that we have to overcome.
Um, you forget that. Andif you if you do forget it,
you you you're you're You've done yourself. You're down on the ladder a
little bit, and you're gonna it'sgonna be hard to keep the audience engaged.
(20:57):
Yeah, it's so interesting that forthe third Equalizer, Dakota has reunited
with Denzel because Man on Fire istotally a movie where if I blink,
I just think you wrote it likeit's like it really feels like of a
piece with a lot of the stuffthat you've done. It's my one of
my favorite movies, and Brian Heavilynis one of my favorite writers. So
(21:19):
it was really remarkable to watch themtogether, the ease in which they and
also the history because there's a there'sa twist to her character that I don't
think you see coming that connects everything. And so again, she could have
(21:45):
been just a CIA agent working onus, be part of the story and
probably would have passed. But shewasn't. Just that she was something else.
So again, part of my jobis to make sure or try to
make sure that there's there's things inthere, there's tasty things in there for
(22:08):
them to hook onto and to playum. And it's the one thing that
a lot of writers either forget ordon't do. And uh, and then
you get you know, those thoseAmazon movies or those you know movies,
and you just go, I canI can stop this anywhere and pick it
up anywhere. It's just I wantto make sure I touched on something you
(22:29):
said earlier, which is about notexplaining everything. And you know, I
mean I personally think this whole narrativethat like, oh, development executives give
stupid notes or whatever is way overblown. And I you know, I've known
a ton of really smart development executives, but I will say that a note
that is very common that you'll getfrom either producers you're working with or executives
or whatever, is like, well, so can you so how come how
(22:52):
come this happen? How come thathappen? Or should we make it more
that? Yeah? And so howdo you sort of a key too that?
Right? Because you don't want tosuddenly be like, well, let's
have a scene or we explain whythis guy bought a pink shirt. You
know, like let's say I'm goingto the store picking out the Well,
(23:12):
I've been fortunate that a Equaliser wasa spec script, so they didn't have
any say. They basically got ascript with a star and a budget and
producers and do you want to makeit or not? And you know,
God bless Denzel Washington and who saidthat's I'm making that movie not don't don't
start bucking with it. So um, same with the second one. They
(23:36):
basically greenlit a develop you know,the development of the second movie on the
night of the test screening of thefirst movie. And I had already in
my head had seen realized that themovie, if there was going to be
And by the way, Denzel hasnever done a sequel to anything and was
not going to do a sequel toDequalizer. And except what he told me
(23:57):
was, well, you know,the only people are going to tell us
anything of the audience that they wantto see him again. And I said,
well, all all characters, allmost of the movies other than like
A Mission Impossible James Bond, likeBorn m I'm forgetting a few you want
to see them again. Right,It's not so much the story or the
(24:19):
world or anything else. You wantto see Jason Bourne and what happens to
him, and and and and that'swhy you keep going back to see those
movies, because they're so well donein terms of character and in terms of
investing in that character. So youknow that that's again, you know,
every every studio wants a franchise,every studio wants you know, uh,
(24:44):
you know, a tent pole orwhatever that they can do, you know,
three or four of them. Um. But you know, other than
a Marvel movie, you you basicallyyou're you better write a character they want
to see again. Um. Andthat's that. That, fortunately, was
what happened, you know, wasn'tin my mind. I had three in
(25:07):
my head. I had three Ihad. I had he finds his purpose,
he finds his peace, and inthe third one he finds his place
at home. So that was sortof in my head. If I could
tell this story in in in threemovies, that's how it would be.
And fortunately that's how it is.Um, just got fortunate. They don't
(25:32):
always happen that way. And it'snot because of anything much I did,
other than I think people want tosee him. They want to see him
do those things. They want tosee what happened to him and where he
is now. I mean, he'sa limp driver now, right, doesn't
even work at home, already destroyedit. So where does he do now
he's a limp driver. Well,that's great because he gets to meet people
(25:53):
in the backseat and he gets tohelp people. So it's it's it's one
of those things where in terms ofthe studio executives. Yes, I got
a lot of that on Craven becausethat was assignment, and I just didn't
do it. I just I justI just didn't write it. And they
(26:15):
kept saying, well, you know, we're gonna tell this back then I'm
like, first of all, Idon't even like the character. We're gonna
have to change the character. We'regonna have to make them something different,
you know, And I did.I rewrote the mythology of Craven the Hunter.
Um I got fired, I gotreplaced. Let's say I got replaced
on that movie by who knows howmany people. And I don't even know
(26:40):
how the movie. It's coming outthis year, I think, so I'm
interested to see what they did withit. But um, I just didn't
do it. I can't do it. I don't. I don't believe in
it. And I don't think anywriter should write something because somebody said we
need to have that. Because Idid get a lot of notes like that,
what's the back where's their backstory?Right, I'm like, I don't
(27:00):
think I care about it. Backstory, Yeah, right, I don't know
Jason Bourne's backstory till the final movie. Till the final scenes in the final
movie. Yeah. Oh so,and that kept me wanting to see more.
Yeah. Um, I have thisthing I've I've talked about this show
before about dad movies, movies thatyour dad would would watch, and I
would say, you're almost like theking of dad movies. Stuff that you
(27:22):
made. I think it's a goodthing. Okay, did your dad get
to watch like when you as youstarted to have success, did your get
dad get to watch these movies thatyou made? You got to see them?
He got all the way up tothe first Equalizer. He was at
the premiere in New York at Equalizer. So that that's that that meant a
lot to me. You know,he got to go to see sixteen Blocks,
(27:44):
which is the white personal favorite movieand uh an Equalizer. Um so
he saw the you know, thethe progress that I made through the years
as a screenwriter. That's bright.Yeah yeah yeah. So as we um
I was gonna, I had hada question written down to say, oh,
(28:07):
you know, it's pretty cool thatyou managed to be the soul writer
and all these movies and obviously mentionedthat you were U. It's interesting I've
noticed I interviewed the guys who wrotethis Apple plus a movie called Sharper,
and I asked them about rewrites andyou know, staying on the whole time,
and because it's a big cast,a lot of stars and stuff,
and they were like, yeah,Julianne Moore. They're like, that's the
answer. Basically, Julianne Moore hadour back from day one. That's the
(28:30):
reason that they shopped our script.They didn't fuck with it. And I've
heard this story again and again,right the value of having your champion that
nobody can mess with for you asa writer, the value of that to
you and getting your vision out there. I think there's more to it.
I think that well. First ofall, I started out as a director,
right I started directed Roger Carman movie, and then I directed an independent
(28:53):
movie with Any Garcia and Any McDowell. So I immediately was already a collaborative
kind of person. So I'm notprecious about anything I write. If the
one has a better idea or bumpingfor I would sit with Denzel on an
equalizer every day for six weeks andhe would come to my little cardboard desk
(29:14):
and he'd sit down and he'd pullout the first draft. Now there's been
four or five different drafts based onbudget and schedules and everything else. And
he'd go through it and he'd say, you know what happened to this?
And I said, well, theydidn't want to pay for the softball uniforms.
He just got up out of hischair and walked over there. He
just came back, sat down andsaid, it's okay, softball's back in
(29:37):
it. And by the way,I think there's so there's that, but
there's also the idea that you're acollaborative person. I think people can tell
that you're not. A lot ofpeople are afraid of writers. That's why
they're not on the sets. That'snot why they're not invited into the editing
room or you know, having youknow anything. They feel they're precious about
(29:57):
their stuff, and sometimes they shouldbe. Sometimes, you know, directors
and and people will will mess withtheir movie and it's bad choices. Um.
But by most part, if you'reif you're a collaborative, you get
to participate in that dialogue. SoI always would go to Denzel's house and
(30:18):
sit there and we go to thescript and he would say, I don't
understand this. How do I playthis? I say, well, I
don't know how do you play that? And he goes, well, you
can't play that. I said,how do I play? I think this
and I'm like this, and I'mlike oh, I said, well,
that's really written for the studios,so they understand it. You can do
(30:41):
whatever you want, right, butwhen I write it, so there's two
scripts. There's a script that theythey read and they they read and they
green light, and then there there'sa script that they made, So you
have to understand that when you're writingit. Like I don't say I write
uh scripts, I write movies.When I when you've read I guess Equalizer,
it reads like a movie, doesn'tread like a script. I don't
(31:04):
use a lot of exterior interior,you know, those kind of things,
cut twos and stuff like that.It reads sort of like you know,
I'm telling your story. It's veryclean. It's clean and visual and has
visceral stuff in it, and thefight, the action has emotion and it's
clean and like you said, so, I'm thinking of it as a movie,
(31:26):
not as a script. And Iused to write them as scripts.
I used to write them as Istarted out. You'd write these movies for
the executives, just like the scripts. They read, and I realized I
was just doing myself at the servicebecause they all read the same. Soon
as you just say exterior Broadway,everybody sees the same Broadway. But if
(31:49):
you describe your Broadway right in adifferent way and you don't say broadway,
you say, you know the manwith the push card is going down the
street, that the band with thepush guard is your is your slugline?
I want to read, what doesthat mean? Where is he? And
then you suddenly realize he's in NewYork City and he's so I think that
(32:10):
that's a skill that people learn.I just read a lot of scripts Coen
Brothers, um m m knight.I love his work. He uses no
descriptions in his scripts, so Ikind of call from people, even William
Goldman, who who is the kingof that right? You know? It
(32:31):
basically reads like a movie. Yea. And so I realized that when you
do yourself a serve when you startwriting him like final draft scripts, yea.
And by the way, so that'sthe movie that they that's the thing
they get and they say, wow, this is a great movie. Let's
let's let's get you know, ChrisPratt to be in it. You know,
(32:52):
and and then you have to goback and you start making it into
the you know, the the mechanicalversion of it, right, who already
to put in next two years andthey do all that for you. Yeah,
but so there's two versions, anddon't be afraid of writing it that
way because every executive, every studiochief, and every per actor appreciates that
(33:17):
reading something that's readable. Yeah,it's opposed to things I've read. It
just seems this looks like everything elseI've read it. So yeah, I
think you know something you mentioned earlier, maybe as far as like working with
the actors and stuff. It reallymade me think of the most recent episode
of Succession. There's a moment whereShip is talking to her mom and she's
(33:38):
a strange from her mom. Shehadn't seen her wife yes, and the
mom comes up to her and shegoes, oh. A Ship kind of
like reacts and it's like oh,And basically what she's saying is, I
can tell you're pregnant immediately. Idon't need you to tell me. I
don't need you to do it.Immediate's by looking at you, I can
tell you're pregnant. And no,no point in their conversation is the word
(34:00):
pregnancy, baby, anything used,And it's so like, you really have
to have confidence in yourself as awriter in the actors. But they can
do that. They don't need youto say, you know, like mom,
I'm pregnant, right, Like,so that of doing less, of
the confidence to do less basically,and also the confidence to listen to the
(34:22):
actors. Again on the first Equalizer, Melissa Leo came in maybe three weeks
into our shooting and came into thecame to the monitors and sat next to
me, and she said, Ilove the script and everything. I want
to talk to you about something.And I said, I know I have
to do and she does if youwatch the movie, she I know I
(34:44):
have to deliver all this exposition,right, She yes, she's the one
who basically tells us everything about Teddyand Pushkin and all whatever that stuff is.
And she goes, I just Ijust would like it to feel because
I know him more familiar. Right. That was her. That was her
comment to me. And I wenthome to my hotel and I rewrote that
(35:09):
stuff right with that in my mind, and I sent it to her and
I can't tell you how delighted shewas hugged me. That someone listened to
her and did it and understood it. And that's my job, right,
She's an Academy Award winning actress.It's my job to listen to her.
(35:30):
She instinctually is going, I cansay this, but it's it's pretty dry,
and you're missing the fact that I'veworked with this man for you know,
twenty years, so we don't haveto say it like this. I
can say it very shorthandedly. Andso that's my You know, again,
(35:50):
a lot of writers don't get thatopportunity. They're not around. You know
that the movie goes on without them, and they shoot it and they change
it and they do stuff, andactors changed it and and you're not there.
But if you get the opportunity tobe there, and if you are
collaborative and not precious, that's theother part of your job is so listen,
right. The Denzel doesn't want tosay that I had a line I
(36:14):
used and I had to take itout of Equalizer and put it in Jack
Reacher because he wouldn't say it.And that was when they kept asking him
who who are you and right?And the answer was I'm the guy he
didn't count them right, and hesaid an that sounds like a Bruce Willis
line. I said, no,no, it's good, it's good.
So he did it once and helooked at me, said that's for you,
(36:35):
but I do it again. It'snot in the movie, but it's
it's in the opening scene in JackReacher. Interesting. Yeah, so so
you but you But but I listened. It wasn't like I got all hissy
about it and said, you know, you're ruining the movie. You know,
that's the great line and everything else, and it's like he doesn't want
to say it. It's Denzel Washington. He's the greatest actor of the twentieth
(36:58):
century. I think he would knowmore than me. So before we wrap
up, because I so appreciate yourtime. I'm very excited obviously to see
Budge with three, but I mightbe equally excited, frankly, to see
James Cohn's last role, because Iremember James conn before he died, he
was interviewed and somebody asked him.He was like, I just want one
more, like I can really act, because you know, he had gotten
(37:20):
to a point in his career werejust sort of doing low budget movies and
you got the sense he wasn't gettingthe opportunity. Have you You presumably have
seen the movie Fast Charted and that'shis last performance, right, yes,
wow. Um, I can tellyou that he's brilliant in it. I
can tell you that it was tailormade for him. I fought very hard.
(37:42):
I want to say. Originally theywere trying to cajole Morgan Freeman to
play the role. And I loveMorgan Freeman. In fact, I met
with Morgan Freeman on sixteen Blocks whenwe were going to make the most death
character older and delightful. Man issuper smart. But I just kept feeling
(38:06):
like, you know, he's comingin for you know, a week,
and you know I've seen him comein for a week, and I think
there's something more interestful. And Isuggested Jimmy Cohn. I didn't know what
how his health was, and itwasn't great. Um. And I just
hung up yesterday with Pierce Brosnan,who who saw the movie and loved it
(38:30):
and was so touched by the scenesbetween them. He's he's, it's it's
I don't know. It's weirdly theprobably the perfect role for him at this
time, because he was telling Piercehe goes he said I'm headed to the
dark side Pierce, and Pierce keptsaying, I think we should finish the
(38:50):
movie and have some tea, andyou know, you know all the stuff.
But he knew and yet that's partof the character. That part of
the character he had samentha and andand um, you know, it was
a almost a father son relationship.Even though that Pierce was older, it
was he was his like father figure. And um, he was so kind
(39:13):
to a man who didn't remember thator that. So he's he's just you're
gonna love it. You're gonna loveseeing him in that movie. Um uh.
It isn't one of those parts thatyou go, oh, you know,
it's one of those parts of Wow, I wish I wish he's still
here. I wish he could dosome more. That's great, man,
I mean you really that's cool.Like you made his That's what he wanted.
(39:36):
I mean explicitly said, he's like, before I die, I just
want to do one more. Ireally get to act. So I'm so
glad you know you're able to dothat for him. It's great. Yeah,
yeah, it was wonderful to watchhim and it's just fantastic. Richard.
I don't want to take up anymore your time, man, I
really really appreciate it. That isthe show for today. I don't need
to tell anybody that Equalija three's comingout. I'm sure people will be aware
(39:58):
of it of So yeah, thankyou so much for coming on the show.
And that is the podcast for today. Thank you for having me.
M m m h, m hmm h, m hm m m h
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.