054 - Writing Through Depression: Michael David Wilson Talks Daddy’s Boy - Weird Reads

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to the Weird Reader Podcast, an extension of
Jason's Weird Reads found on YouTube. Welcome, Welcome to the
Weird Reads Podcast, episode fifty four. I am very pleased

(00:33):
to have Michael David Wilson on with me again talking
about his latest book, Daddy's Boy. But we go into
so many other topics in this conversation. I had a
lot of fun talking with David to give you an
idea of who Michael David Wilson is, although I suspect
if you listen to this podcast then you are very

(00:55):
familiar with who this individual is. This awesome caster and writer.
Michael David Wilson is the founder of the popular horror
and horror website and podcast This Is Horror. He's been
running that since like twenty and eleven. He's one of
the longest running author interview podcasts out there, and he's

(01:20):
also one of the very first to do it. He
is also the author of The Girl in the Video
There Watching, which he wrote with Bob Pastorella, his co
host for This Is Horror, and House of Bad Memories,
and what we're discussing today Daddy's Boy. As I said,
I had a great time talking with Michael, and I

(01:41):
hope you have a great time listening. So without further ado,
how about we just get into it. Here's my conversation
with Michael David Wilson. Hello, today, I have a reoccurring guest,
this second time. I'm very happy to have Michael David
Wilson part two, and we are here to discuss his

(02:05):
new release, which drops today. It's called Daddy's Boy. Are
highly highly recommended, and I want to thank you Michael
for sending me an e arc. I had an absolute
blast reading this book. And welcome back to the show.
How have things been since our last conversation?

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, thank you so much. I guess that it's been
about eighteen months or so since the last conversation, given
that that's when House the Bad Memories came out. And yeah,
I mean goodness. I've been busy working away on various projects.
Of course, I've now got Daddy's Boy out in the world. Today,

(02:47):
I'm working on a collaborative novel with John Krinnen, which
is called in a Movie. It is set in a
sleep cafe in yakuza infested Japan, kind of as if
the two Murakamis were collaborating on a novel as directed
by Quentin Tarantino, and then I got another Yeah, yeah,

(03:11):
I hope, so yeah, And I got another novel that
I'm working on. There's tentatively cooled Don't Knock at the Door,
and it's kind of funny games meets From Dust Till Dawn,
but with a ring supernatural undercurrent. So I'm busy writing
as the podcast as well, and just getting all these

(03:35):
ideas and these creative things out into the world. So
that's mostly what's been keeping me occupied.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
That's awesome. I kind of understand where you're coming from.
Have you noticed lately that opportunities seem to be coming
up a little bit more often recently for you?

Speaker 2 (03:54):
I'm not sure about that. I suppose that throughout my career,
I've often created my own opportunities and created the jobs
that I wanted to exist. So if I think about
the formation of This as Horror, I wanted there to

(04:15):
be a horror fiction website or magazine that was really
covering the genre, and at the time there was only
really black static that I was aware of, So that's
why I created This Is Horror. Then when I wanted
to see more in publishing and chat books and a

(04:38):
novella form, and the noveletteform, I should say I created
that publishing line. So a lot of the times, if
there's something I want in the world and I'm not
seeing the opportunity, then I go out and try to
make it happen for myself. But as to whether there

(05:00):
are more opportunities now, it's difficult to say, because if
there's not an opportunity, then I just go ahead and
do the work. Anyway, not having an opportunity doesn't stop
me creating. I kind of create and then look for
where's the market or what on earth am I going

(05:22):
to do with this after? If we're talking more broadly, though,
so if it's not just you know, because I don't
know if you're asking about opportunities specifically for me or
if you are talking about opportunities in general. There's certainly
a lot more small presses and publishing outlets and places

(05:46):
for people to get their horror fiction out into the
world these days. Definitely a lot more than when I
started with this as horror back in twenty eleven. For
me specifically, I'm not sure. I think, of course, with

(06:07):
every release that I have, then it kind of makes
people more aware of the Michael David Wilson body of work.
So then there will be people who will contact me about,
you know, various things from stories to podcast appearances and
the like. And I think that's how it is really

(06:28):
for every writer. With each release, that's another opportunity, that's
another ticket for success and for just getting your name
out there. And I suppose something that I'm conscious of
at the moment is I've had quite a lot of
success and I'm quite well known for this as horror,

(06:51):
but I'm now trying to build up the Michael David
Wilson brand, for want of better phrasing, so that people
are just as aware of me as a writer rather
than just as that this is horror guy, which is
particularly important for releases such as Dad's Boy, because even

(07:12):
though I run this is horror, there's probably quite a
strong argument with Daddy's Boy that you could say, well,
this is not horror, this is dark comedy. So trying
to get that distinction and to just have almost that

(07:32):
separation so people know that there's very much two sides
to me. And I would hate to mislead people too
and for them to think I'm writing like a kind
of straight humorless horror, because I don't think it would
be possible for me to write anything without humor. I

(07:54):
mean that's been present since my very first released the
Girl in the video. That's been present really since I
wrote my first stories. Humor is a part of my
life and how I deal with things.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Absolutely, and it really shines through. But we'll get to
that soon. Your answer there kind of brought on another question.
Is it difficult separating yourself from This is Horror as
your own entity? I know you're trying, because you have
your own Patreon right now, which I'm a member of.

(08:28):
But do you feel kind of trapped by This is
Horror at all?

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Hm?

Speaker 1 (08:34):
In regards to your writing.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
I think that I certainly felt something along the lines
of it. If not trapped, then there was perhaps an
expectation I'd inadvertently built. Yeah, So, I mean I started
this as horror before I had a very solid daily

(08:59):
writing practice. I've always been writing. My degree at university
was in English literature and creative writing, so there was
an expectation to be writing fiction every week. But then
post university, and really from when I graduated university up

(09:24):
until the time I did the One Story per Week
Challenge in twenty sixteen, so that's about an eight year period.
My writing was more sporadic, and there was a little
bit of fear because it's like what if what if

(09:46):
this isn't any good? What if I put it out
into the world and then people are like, what on
earth is going on here? This is junk? But actually
I can say even the first time that I showed
my first story from the One Story per Week to
somebody and they reacted and they enjoyed it. And this

(10:09):
was the first person who I showed it to, it
just unlocked freedom and like, wow, no, I can actually
do this, And I think, you know, where did this fear?
Where did this doubt come from? If I'm going to
try and unpack it, then there are two things that
were contributors. I think. Firstly, being in that very academic

(10:35):
university environment. There were some professors, not all very important
to state, not all because there was some tremendously encouraging ones,
but there were some who are like, you need to
be writing literature. This, this horror nonsense is just kind

(10:56):
of low form entertainment. There's no art, there's no value
to it. You should read more of the poetry of
Pablo Neruda, which I've said on interviews before and I
possibly even said to you before. But it's because, like,
you know, the recommendation of Pablo Neruda was so specific

(11:19):
and bizarre to me that that moment really stands out.
But because there were professors that were saying, you know
that this is good art, this is bad art, essentially,
I kind of felt like, well, I mean, I have
a great appreciation for all literature. But then that kind

(11:43):
of meant that some of these professors were probably inadvertently
and with good intention themselves, but kind of shaming what
I like. It's like, well, all this horror fiction that
you're saying is junk. That's what gets me really excited.
That's what I enjoy. Its confusing to be told that

(12:08):
what you enjoy is not right. And there's a whole
of a wider conversation on other things and other issues
in society where people try and shame you for enjoying
what you enjoy and for seeking pleasure in what lights
you up. But yeah, that was certainly a factor. And

(12:32):
then the other factor was as I got deeper and
deeper with this as horror and it became relatively successful
and well known in the genre fairly quickly, and then
the success of the podcast also came about quite quickly.
I felt like I'd inadvertently created this expectation where, well,

(12:58):
because I'm interviewing, let's say, the greats of horror literature
like Adam Neville and Ramsey Campbell, there might be this
expectation that then when I'm writing, that's what I'm going
to produce. But it never had been like that. If

(13:18):
I was writing honestly and authentically, of course I could
write a piece kind of parodying, you know, the works
of Neville and Campbell, and maybe I could even do
it semi competently, but it wouldn't really be me being

(13:38):
authentic and true to myself. That would just it would
kind of be similar to if I just got a
copywriting assignment. It's like, well, write a novel in the
voice of Adam Neville. It's going to be soulless. Really,
it's going to lack authenticity, which is going to mean

(14:01):
two things. One is never going to be as bloody
good as an Adam Neville piece, because he is bleeding
for that, he is putting everything into that, and it's
never going to be as good as an authentic Michael
David Wilson piece, because that's the real me, that's not
me phoning it in on me trying to fake it.

(14:24):
So I did feel for some time that I don't
know that I might have just I don't know if
it's let people down possibly a little bit, but that
they would they would read my fiction and they would think, well,
this isn't as good as the people who you're interviewing.

(14:49):
And then there might also be this terrible effect where
not only would they not like the writing, but then
they'd be like, well, we can't take you as a
authority on horror fiction either, you know, self doubt and
things that are kind of in that nature. They can
create a cascade of imaginary problems that are not actually

(15:13):
based in reality. But it's kind of the black dog.
It's things in that depression area that are just completely
lying to us. And so you know, with that at
the back of my mind, it definitely it stopped me

(15:34):
writing for some time, or it in a way kind
of newted what I was writing. It wasn't quite me.
I was holding back. But then with the with the
one story per week challenge, you know, I wrote a
story a week in a year that really changed the

(15:59):
game for me. And then I think, as well, yeah,
there were people in the horror community who really accepted
what I was doing. And I think at that point too,
I'd realize that there are so many facets of horror.

(16:19):
You know, you don't need to you know, we didn't
have Adam Nevillon, and the next week we'd have David
Moody on, and they're like, oh, well, David Moody's writing
more kind of character driven pieces where it's pacier and
there's less I suppose poetical prose. They didn't ostracize David

(16:46):
Moody or they didn't get upset because Dangers Later was
on and he's got like this beautiful brand of absurdist
bizarro fiction. So there's kind of room at the table
for every everyone.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, and so.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
That, yeah, that really someone's like, I gave myself permission
to then just write and to be myself. And that's
the thing. It was me who was giving me permission,
and it was me who was holding me back. There
was never any other person who said you can't do this.
These are all kind of imagined, well, well, apart from

(17:25):
the specific professor at university. But that was many years.
That was many years prior to that. But you know,
if somebody says something that can wound you for a
long time, especially if you're you're young and naive and
you are unaware at the time that perhaps they are
projecting their own frustrations upon other people because their book

(17:50):
of obscure poetry didn't do as well as the latest
Stephen King book, and now they're bitter and resentful over there.
But that brings us full circle to Daddy's Boy, because
now Dad's Boy is, without a doubt, the most comedic
thing that I've written. And I think that each release

(18:16):
definitely the Girl in the video, then House a Bad Memories,
then Dad's Boy. I'm omitting there watching just because that
was with Bob. It's slightly different, but other than that,
each release has got progressively more comedic. And I would
say that Daddy's Boy is a dark comedy with thriller

(18:39):
and crime elements, whereas House of Bad Memories was a
dark thriller crime book with comedic elements. So now it's flipped.
But I did think, well, now now I've strayed the
furthest that I have from traditional horror. So I just

(19:00):
to have this separation between Michael David Wilson and this
is horror. It doesn't mean that I'm not going to
be writing horror anymore. I mean, I've just told you
that one of the projects that I'm working on is
more horror. Yeah, And I would say that Daddy's Boy
is probably the most comedic thing I will ever write.

(19:24):
I might write something as comedic as that again, but
I don't think we'll go further. So people are wondering
where is the comedic limit? Is probably there?

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Well, I find it fascinating because you know, I've gone
through my own bouts of self doubt. In fact, I
went through a very very long period of time where
I didn't write anything because I just hated everything I wrote,
and I stopped podcasting because I thought I was garbage.
But you know what calls to me about all this

(19:58):
is believing your thought. And I'm kind of glad that
you're able to climb out of that hole too, because
I think too many people believe the terrible things that
their minds tell them. And yeah, easy to get lost
in that.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, And I think kind of part of what I
try to do with this Sashara and also with the
Michael David Wilson Patreon is you know, not only are
they about fiction and books and creativity, but they're also
about helping people to be able to write. I want

(20:37):
to inspire people. I want people to know that actually,
you should keep going in spite of the doubt, in
spite of any voices telling you that you shouldn't. And
you know, something I said recently is if you want
to win every time that you write, then find joy

(21:00):
in the pursuit, in the act of writing itself. Then
you've got no barriers such as you know, how many
copies do you sell? Do you get an agent with this?
Do you get a publisher? You don't even have the
barrier as there is the story any good, which is

(21:21):
almost an insane question anyway. Yes, there are technical areas
that can make a story better from a structure or
a grammatical point of view, but in terms of if
a story is good, that's so subjective anyway. So yeah,
I mean another takeaway for people is don't try to

(21:44):
please everyone, because it's an impossibility. So I think, really,
as cliched as it is, if you can start in
pleasing yourself in writing the story that you want to
write and in finding your in writing it, that's a
very good start.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah. That actually brings up another good point because like
on a book tube book tube, there's a lot of
channels that come and go. They come and go pretty
quickly too sometimes, and a lot of people are chasing
the end game where they're going to be doing, you know,

(22:24):
making videos full time. They're gonna have sponsors, they're going
to have you know, endorsements, and of course the ads
and all that, and when that doesn't come as fast
as they want, they're out. And I've always said, you
have to enjoy what you're doing first. You have to
enjoy the process or you're not going to get anywhere.
You're going to be frustrated and you're going to heat it.

(22:46):
And I think it applies to writing very much. So
like when I first started writing way back in like
two thousand, it was the same thing for me. I
was thinking of the end goal, not the journey. And
I've come to uh, I've come to realize that it's
all about the journey.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah. I think if you're doing it primarily to make
money and that is your main motivator, then you're in
the wrong game. Also, if you're doing it only to
make money, it's going to influence the decisions that you make,

(23:22):
the things that you write, and then it's going to
probably to go back to what I said near the start,
mean that you're not being authentic or you're zapping the joy.
If I'm just writing a to order book, well, I
could be having any job at that point. And if

(23:42):
I could have any job, then I might as well
choose a job where it's going to reward me financially.
You know, it's to a greater extent than just you know,
ghost writing a book or whatever it happens to be.
It's not to shame people who do ghost write books.

(24:03):
You know, there's a lot of good writers I know
who do that. But I'm I'm just saying for me personally,
when I'm writing that is that is primarily for joy. Yes,
secondarily I would like to make money from it. That
is a concern, but it can't be the driving force

(24:25):
for me and for what I'm doing. And you know,
recently I've realized that I've I've kind of staked my
entire career on my writing and on my writing being
a success. Because there are certain choices that I've made

(24:49):
that have meant that I've gone with writing as opposed
to money. Essentially. You know, when I got out of university,
I for the first year I did a kind of
soulless office job, and I thought, I, I can't just

(25:09):
do this. I didn't go through school and university to
just be like this monotonous office job. What am I
going to do? And I wasn't entirely sure what I
was going to do, and I thought, well, I'd quite
like some money, So why don't I do a graduate

(25:31):
diploma in law? So I spent a year to get
this essentially the equivalent of a law degree. And what
did I learn in that year? I learned that I
absolutely didn't want to be a lawyer. You know, this
is just boring, This is a time suck, this isn't

(25:54):
this isn't driving me, this isn't fulfilling me. And so
that relatively expensive lesson because it's not cheap to go
through law school.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
I've been there, not in law school, but I've gone
to college and I know, yeah, I know, yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
But but I realized this isn't what I want to do,
and that there's a recurring theme in my life that
whenever I deviate away from creativity or from writing, I
just feel unfulfilled. And so the cooling is for me
to follow my creativity and my writing. That's kind of

(26:39):
what I have to do. And you know that the
longer I do it, the more. Like like you said,
there are some people who are on book Cube and
they're like, I'm not reaching the end game or I'm
not able to do this full time. And you know,
for me, every time I write something like I said,

(27:02):
it's a ticket. It's a ticket to that big break
because it only takes one book to go viral or
to sell in such numbers that it just raises your
entire stock and you're set. But you know, there's the
possibility that that might not happen. There's the possibility that

(27:24):
it might. So it's a kind of fifty to fifty game,
a fifty to fifty game where with each book that
you write, you increase your chances of some sense. But
I did ask myself, well, well, what if I never
make it in inverticmas, what if I don't have a

(27:46):
big breakthrough, You know what, I'll I'll have way less
money than I could have had if I'd taken a
different path. But what then, and I don't Well, if
that is the case, then I have pretty much enjoyed

(28:07):
every day of my life because I've been writing, and
I've been creative, and I've been putting this art and
these stories into the world that make me incredibly happy
and that you know, make other people happy too from
the feedback that I'm getting. So if I don't make it,

(28:31):
if I don't end up being really rich or a
New York Times bestseller or whatever metric you want to
put on, then I've still won. I'm successful because I
enjoyed every day in my life. I enjoyed all the
work that I did, and that aren't that many people

(28:54):
that can say that. And you know, I might not
be really, really wealthy, but if I've got enough to eat,
if I've got enough to provide for my family, money
is overrated. Money is so overrated, and we kind of

(29:17):
think that we need more of it than we actually do.
And if we find that what makes us happy isn't
that much like the less you need to make you happy,
the more you win at life. And kind of what
I what I need to make me happy is pretty simple.

(29:39):
I like good coffee, I like writing, and I like,
I like good food, but I'm also a reasonable cook,
so it doesn't require me having to go to a restaurant.
As long as I can buy decent quality ingredients, then
I'm fairly set. And I like getting out in nature,

(30:01):
which is typically free depends where you live, I suppose,
but the barriers to entry aren't so high, and that
that's kind of it, yeah, kind of all I need.
So of course, like more money, most people aren't going
to say no to it, but they you don't need

(30:23):
that much, so.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
Pay the bills. Yeah, a decent life if you if
you're here, yeah, yeah, and of course take care of yourself.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
That's that's it. Yeah. So I mean for people listening
or watching, I'd just say, ask yourself, why are you
finding joy in the pursuit of writing or in the
pursuit of creating YouTube videos or podcasting or or art
or whatever it is that you're doing. And if you are,

(31:00):
then really hold on to that joy and remember that
that means that what you're doing it makes you successful.
That is the end goal you have won. And if
you're not finding joy, then perhaps perhaps readjust and ask yourself,

(31:21):
why not are there things that you're compromising. Perhaps go
back to, you know, when you're a child or whenever
you first found joy in writing. What was it that
kind of unlocked that joy for you? What barriers have
you now put in the way. Perhaps it's that you

(31:44):
are seeking an agent or a publisher to the detriment
of the story. Perhaps if you've got a podcast or
a YouTube channel, you're you're concentrating on the metrics and
the numbers too much, be it views per video, be
it subscribers, And maybe you're now making decisions in terms

(32:07):
of the content that you put out that that happens. Yeah, yeah,
and then you're just like, you know, making like ten
must read horror books for the summer because you think
it's got a catchy title that SEO will like. But
really what you want to do is make a video

(32:29):
that's looking at the philosophical insight that can be found
in the fiction of Eric Larka.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, exactly, just do that. And the fint thing, it's
funny you bring that up because I used to be
that guy. I was the guy before just say, we'll
just say two three years ago up to seven years
ago or eight years ago when I started my channel,
come up with all these top ten lists and you know,

(33:00):
great summertime reading things like that. And I got a
fair amount of subscribers just doing that, but it became
became I don't know, it became tiresome and really wanted
I want. What I wanted to do was explore more
into genre and to writers. And so if if anyone

(33:21):
like listening has perused my channel recently, you've noticed I
haven't been uploading those types of videos at all. In fact,
it's mostly stuff like this. I do deep dives and
two genres with some friends I've made, and I talked
to authors, and I've started a new podcast. Not to
toot my horn or anything, but I've done I'm doing

(33:42):
that new Stephen King podcast. Now I'm more centered on
where I've been wanting to go. But it took me.
It took me years to realize exactly where it was
I wanted to go. It feels like but it's much
more satisfying now.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, And I think that we shouldn't be a friend
to experiment. We also shouldn't fear if we don't know
the answer to where do we want to go or
what do we want? It's okay to not have an
answer and to just slowly figure that out. So, yeah,
there might be people who are listening and they're thinking,
but I don't know what it is that brings me joy.

(34:20):
That's okay, experiment, Yeah, try things out, you know you can.
Sometimes it takes really going back to basics and writing
a list of what are the things you like, what
are the things you dislike, and then looking at well,
what could that thing be for me? I think too

(34:42):
with you know, I use the top ten list as
an easy example. But in the movie industry there are
a lot of actors that they'll make a film for
them and a film for the studio, and they will vary,
and then that will allow them to have financial freedom
and creative authenticity. And I certainly don't think there's anything

(35:08):
wrong with experimentation. You know, I don't think that me
creating ten summer horror reads is going to be what
will light me up and give me ultimate creative fulfillment.
But if somebody said, if you do that, then that
video will get a million views, well, I guess we've

(35:31):
got some summer reading to do, guys. Because yeah, of course,
you know, it's all about risk reward, and so I
experiment with different formats from time to time. You know
it in terms of like Stephen King, like I have

(35:51):
done some episodes where you know, me and Barb and
a guest have analyzed as even king book. We've analyzed
other books as well, not you know, not just by
Stephen King and how to look at like well, how
how do they? How does that do? Because if I

(36:13):
found the analyzing a book like ten x the listeners
or the viewers, then probably I do that every month.
And I think as well, it's important to state that like,
whilst I might enjoy interviewing people more than analyzing a book,

(36:38):
I do still enjoy analyzing the book. So it's not
like a choice between love and hate, but it's more
between love and like. But if I can do things
I love rather than things I like, then I'll choose love.
I think too. With the specific example of analyzing a book,

(37:00):
it's actually the time commitment that's.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
The people on there.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
It's huge, it's huge. Yeah, And of course there's a
there is a time commitment in me interviewing an author
and me researching. But but when I analyze a book,
I'm kind of scouring over each sentence, whereas if I'm
interviewing an author, it's like, well, well, I've read each sentence,

(37:26):
but I haven't meticulously looked at it. So yeah, you know,
everything I do. I want to make sure that i'm
I'm showing up and I'm I'm giving value to whoever
is listening or watching, because that's their precious time. I
don't want to waste other people's time. I want to

(37:47):
waste my own time either.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's got to be pleasing. Right
before we get into Daddy's Boy, I do want to
talk about your Patreon a bit, because I think it's
I'm a member and I really enjoy what you're doing there.
One thing I want to talk about is your walking Talks.
You answered one of my questions on there, and I
truly appreciate that. But do you want to talk about

(38:11):
your Patreon for a second before we move on to
Daddy's Boy?

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah? Absolutely. Do you want me to talk about it
in general terms, just.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Like an overview of what people who might want to
go there and check it out, what they'll get.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, it's Patreon, dot com, forward slash Michael David Wilson,
And as I said before, I kind of set it
up as a place to separate this as horror and
Michael David Wilson, And I mean what I'm doing here
is it's a combination of readings from my work, but

(38:48):
also more writing advice and insights into the craft of writing.
And you mentioned the walk and talk that has become
kind of my most popular piece of content, my most
popular post. And it's kind of as it sounds. Really,

(39:12):
I'm walking around Japan and at the same time, I
am recording audio on creativity and that can be either
insights that I've gleaned or it can be fielding questions
that patreons have submitted. But I always want there to

(39:35):
be a kind of takeaway. I want this to be
helpful to the listeners. So I mean, I'm looking at
it recently, so you can even tell from the titles
of some of these walk and talks what I'm going
to be talking about. So we've got creative procrastination, we've

(39:58):
got reimagined story ideas that aren't working. We've got decide
what you want to do most and create a plan
to make it happen.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
I like that one a lot.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, Yeah, So in fact, I'm I'm trying to even
do it that if you haven't got time to listen
to the walk and talk. You've probably got to take
away just from reading the title and seeing that pop up.
But it's a place that, yeah, it serves many purposes

(40:31):
really because as I said it, it's a separate place
from This as Horror, so it's like this is Michael
David Wilson. But it also enables me to connect with
people who really like my work as readers, because I
know too that whilst there is a lot of crossover
between This is Horror and Michael David Wilson readers, it's

(40:55):
not exclusive. There will be people who enjoy read my
work who aren't really into traditional horror fiction. Equally, there
are going to be people who really like the podcast,
but the brand of horror I'm doing isn't for them.
I mean, it's it's quite niche. I think it is
a kind of love it or Hate it style. And

(41:20):
then also with This as Horror, I've tried to also
be the kind of guy that can give you writing advice,
that can motivate you, that can help you through your
creative struggles, and that's becoming a big part of Michael
David Wilson Patreon as well. So then I mean there's

(41:43):
essentially two types of people who are going to get
a lot out of it. There are those who are
struggling with their writing and they want that extra boost.
And there are going to be those people who are
big fans of my fiction and they want to get
some bonuses like exclusive content, like early content, and also

(42:07):
to get to see some of those readings and listen
to the audio versions. So at the moment, I've been
recording a chapter from House of Bad Memories so people
can see me reading it. I've also a few days
ago I put chapter one of Daddy's Boy up there.
I realized at the time of recording that's going to

(42:30):
be about a few weeks ago, so anyway, it doesn't
go away, so it is there. So if you're listening
and you're not sure if you want to buy Daddy's Boy,
if you go to patreon dot com forward slash Michael
David Wilson, you can read chapter one. You'll also, by
the time this is going live, be able to listen

(42:52):
to the audiobook of chapter one, because I'm going to
be putting that live in a matter of days, so
that part two is not behind the paywall. So it's
important to say that watch. The bulk of the content
is behind a rather small paywall. There's a free tier

(43:15):
as well, so you can kind of preview what I'm doing,
and I think too to just kind of talk a
little bit more on the Walk and Talk. If you
enjoy this is Horror podcast, and you enjoy the bits
in which I'm giving writing or creative advice, then you're

(43:36):
probably going to really like the Walk and Talk because
it's essentially a solo podcast where I am just talking
about a specific issue pertaining to writing.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yeah. Well, it's very informative and I've enjoyed my time there,
and so how about we move on to Daddy's Boy
here the main event.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
You mentioned that you've you've read the chapter one from
Daddy's Boy on your Patreon and you're going to be
dropping the uh uh, the actual audio book the first
chapter soon, so there is going to be an audiobook.
That's that's pretty exciting.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yeah. The audio book is narrated by Josh Curran, and
Josh Curran is perhaps best known for his work on
The Hawk and Cleaver of the Other Stories podcast. He's
you know for Me for My Money, one of the
best narrators for that podcast. And he's just got such

(44:45):
a kind of great but understated British voice that lends
itself so nicely. It's gonna work, yeah to Daddy's Boy.
But he's also really brought to life some of these
characters with great accents. It's not it's not just a

(45:08):
straight reading where he's varying his tone a little bit. No,
he's he's doing different accents and voices for different characters.
And I mean, actually be no surprise, because you know
he he is a voice actor. He is trained as
an actor in theater, so this is why he's good

(45:32):
at And yeah, I'm I've listened to it so many
times because I'm very meticulous and pedantic when going through well,
when going through anything. So it was it was that
with the audio as well. It was a really good partnership.

(45:52):
I hope that we will work together in the future
on something. But my goodness, I'm excited to share that
with the world.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
I want to hear it. I want to listen to
it maybe when it comes out, because I just want
to hear those voices come to life. Because this is
such a dialogue driven book. A lot of people compare
you to Quentin Tarantino, and I think the comparisons are

(46:23):
very fair. Without being Tarantino, it's it's it's like being
it's like Tarantino in the sense that they are so
strong dialogue structure within your work, and this this book
is definitely like it's you're at your peak here. It
feels like like you could get better, but like it

(46:45):
feels like it's at your peak, because man, this really works.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Yeah, I mean, anytime people compare me to Quentin Tarantino,
for me, that's the ultimate compliment. I absolutely love Tarantino movies,
and yeah, he's a master of craft. He's a master
of dialogue. He's a master of what on the surface

(47:13):
might appear innocuous or tangental dialogue, but then you see
how this is all completely relevant and related to story,
and it all weaves together. And that's something that I
try to do too. So, like, I don't know, like,

(47:34):
was Quentin Tarantino ever a deliberate influence. I'm not sure,
but but I've always loved his films, And yeah, if
I can do something on the page that evokes Tarantino
for a number of readers, my goodness, then that's job done.

(47:55):
That's so so good to hear. And I mean something
that I'm hearing particularly now from people who have read
House of Bad Memories and dad Is Boy, because I
very much see the girl in the video and they're
watching as a kind of pairing and almost like a
phase of MDW fiction, and then House of Bad Memories

(48:20):
and Daddy's Boy also feel like a pairing. It's just
as I said before, Daddy's Boy is dialing up the comedy.
House of Bad Memories is dialing up the violence. But
that's not to say the House of Bad Memories does
not have comedy, and it's certainly not to say that
Dad's Boy does not have violence. And you know, something

(48:42):
that came up recently when I was talking to a
friend is how you know, my villains are kind of
they kind of have something a little bit larger than
life about them, and they're very memorable and cartoonish. Cartoonish
might be going too far, but there's something, there's something

(49:06):
animated about them. And absolutely, you know, for for different
people that that might be disparaging. For me, it's again
it's a compliment. I want them to be memorable, and yeah,
you know, if I if I think of some of them,
like like Westerer's sister and she's got a samurai sword.

(49:26):
What am I gonna say? No, that don't be ridiculous.
That's not cartoonish. That's just normal day life if you're
not walked around Kidder minister, everyone's got a samurai sword.
But you know, we're in fiction. We're I'm playing, I'm
having fun, I'm finding joy. Why wouldn't I give her

(49:48):
a samurai sword?

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Exactly? I mean it really adds to the story. And
you're like, you're talking about your villains being very animated,
and they are. It's part of what makes the book
so good. And I take you on threads. I don't
know if you remember with that video of that guy.
He wasn't rapping. It was like singing, I know, like
a love song or something, right, but he's like dancing

(50:10):
with all the bouncing cars. I'm gonna tell I'm gonna
link that video to this, to this video and to
the podcast because people have to see it. And that
totally has Colin vibes.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Yeah, I mean Colin For people who don't know, which
presumably would be most people because the book is only
coming out.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
Today, you'll know soon if you read it yet.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Oh yeah, So that there's a gang of villains and
one of them, one of the younger members. He's the
son of one of the main villains. He's called Colin,
and he writes writes a lot of raps, which he

(50:58):
then puts up on is TikTok channel, and anytime anything
criminal is happening, then he feels inspired to create a
TikTok rap about it. And he's gone kind of semi
viral for this. But you know, I mean, he's about

(51:20):
as threatening as a wet bag of lettuce, but he's
still pretty pretty endearing, I think in many ways, Like
it's just this bizarre villain, but there are some villains
that seem innocuus and then they might surprise you. Yeah,
you never know who is and who isn't trained in judo.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yeah, or have a samurai sword. Yeah. And also you know,
it's not just your villains though, that your character work
for Well, Norman, you don't know exactly if he's a
villain or not throughout the entire thing, but he's a
fascinating He's one of the most fascinating characters I have
ever read. He's he's out there man, like I can

(52:08):
picture this guy being real and yet oh my god, Like, okay,
Norman is just crazy good, Like he kept the book
like burning. Throughout the whole thing, you kept wondering, what
the hell is Norman gonna do next? Or when is
he going to bring up Naked Attraction next. I love

(52:29):
Norman and Wentworth is great too, but Norman really, uh,
he stole the show, I think.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Yeah, yeah, I think for people who read House of
Bad Memories, Norman is kind of the equivalent to Jade
in Yeah, yeah, He's the one who people are going
to remember. He's kind of the second protagonist in the book.

(52:55):
Really and yeah, yeah, I mean you say you don't
know if he's a villain. He's Norman. He's a human,
he is painted in a bizarre palette of colors. He's
he's not a hero. He's not a villain.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
No, But like, especially the first half, you're you're really unsure, right,
But then you kind of get what he's what, he's
what he wants in the area, the reason why he's
doing what he's doing. But you know, in the he's
a good guy, but in the end he's also kind
of a bad guy, right, right, right, You don't know,
if you can trust him through it.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
He's probably, you know what, on the scale of good
to bad, he's probably a kind of a chaotic good.
Why he's doing these like criminal and these weird things,
but in his own way, in his own logic, it
makes sense. He's never doing things to deliberately harmer for people.

(54:01):
He's very spontaneous, much as Jade was, and sometimes that
spontaneity can be his weakness. I mean, at one point
he literally says yeah, because Wentworth is like, what what
are you doing? You you know, you weren't thinking, And

(54:21):
he's like, oh, that's that's my one weakness. Boy, I
don't think, so I just do.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
That's like.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
There's more.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
He has more self awareness than perhaps people realize. But
it's like he has a self awareness in hindsight. So
it's always too bloody late. But you know what, at
the core of this book, I mean, this book, I think,

(54:57):
and some people have said too, is hilarious, and there
are a lot of jokes, and there are certainly a
lot of dick jokes, which I have not been shy
about saying that. But also at its core, it's about families.
It's about fractured relationships. It's about parental relationships, and it's

(55:18):
about pushing those limits what you would and wouldn't do
for loved ones, what is a step too far? And
that is kind of the seriousness that isn't the core
of this book. And I think with the best kind
of dark comedy and bizarro and absurdism, and I think

(55:45):
we see this a lot in Dangerous Later's work, who
I mentioned before. There are two readings. You can just
read it and play it and enjoy it for the
laughs and for the humor and in my specific case,
for very obscure British nineties references. But there's also a

(56:07):
deeper message if you want, you know, it's there, and
there's a deeper commentary on on relationships and on good
and evil and and so that's why it's so difficult
for you to say, or for anyone to say, is
is Norman a good person? It's like, I don't fucking

(56:29):
know is anyone a good person? Really? Yeah? There are
things that he does that definitely aren't good. There are
things that he does that are well intentioned. There are
things that he does that are absolutely baffling, and you're like,
why did you do that? Oh? I don't know. Boy

(56:49):
must have had a few too many tennis, don't mean,
so you never know if Norman.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
That That was actually one of my questions. So it's
interesting because there are some serious underlying things like Wentworth,
he's going through a really rough patch. He's tried to
kill himself a few times, and the story is from
his perspective, and there's that serious tone throughout. It's just
the way the characters act that make it go kind

(57:18):
of bonkers. And the question was like, how are you
able to put those two elements together something that's very serious,
like these serious themes of like masculinity, toxic masculinity and whatnot,
and marry that to something that just makes you question,

(57:42):
you know, like what the fuck am I reading and
laugh all the time?

Speaker 2 (57:49):
I think it might have a lot to do with
the way that I view the world and the way
that I process and deal with difficult times in my
own life. We would have touched on this a little
bit with House of Bad Memories because it was relevant then,

(58:09):
but it was also relevant when writing Daddy's Boys. So
I mean somewhere between finishing House of Bad Memories and
during the composition of Daddy's Boy, I was going through
one of the most difficult, not one of the most
difficult time of my life with a custody battle and

(58:34):
a divorce, and there were just some very difficult and
painful times. But whenever anything difficult is happening, and then,
like you know, if I have a conversation with a
friend and I tell them about it, I know that

(58:56):
these are heavy things to hear and there's basically no
humor and there's no there's no joy in them, and
then that makes it a little bit difficult for the
person who is receiving that information who I'm talking to.
And I have a thing where I have to make

(59:18):
a joke or I have to make light of something,
or I have to I just have to make a
kind of ironic statement, or I'll deliberately say something that
is not true and is overinflated and over the top,
just to break that tension and just to break how
fucking just sad and and and kind of desolate it

(59:44):
all is that. So I've always dealt with tragedy through
humor and through joking. And you know, there's a cliche
about how if you don't laugh, you will cry, And
I probably just in my life and in my vision,
take that to the limit. It's like, well, what do

(01:00:06):
you mean if you don't laugh? Most people would just
cry at that you fucking run and why are you laughing?

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
But well, I honestly I think that they're they're similar, right, yeah, laughing, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
And you know, I I've mentioned this once before, but
I also kind of tangentally related to that. I have
a thing where if there's a really serious situation where
you're not meant to laugh, that's part of my messed

(01:00:42):
up brain. They're just during that moment apropos of nothing
is like, it would be pretty funny if you laugh
right now. It's like we're at fucking grandma's funeral, go on,
have a little have a little juckle, And just the
inner proprioateness of this intrusive thought then makes me want

(01:01:03):
to laugh, and it's like, yeah, that would be pretty funny.
And I think as well, like actually that you know,
I said that I don't traditionally fit into horror. I
think there's this constant battle that I have where I

(01:01:25):
cannot write a straight horror piece without cracking a joke,
and I cannot write just a comedy without getting a
little bit fucked up and doing something really, really dark.
So it's almost makes it impossible for me to write
commercial comedy or commercial horror because I'll just throw this

(01:01:46):
thing in that is almost the antithesis of what I'm
trying to create. It's like, well, it's like the laughing
at the funeral. It's like my brain wants to self sabotage,
and why probably for my immature personal amusement. It's like
if I'm entertaining, I think entertaining myself is like a

(01:02:11):
big part of the process because when I'm working on
a story, I mean probably if I write a novel quickly,
it's probably still six months. Like I'd say six to
twelve months is the average time for me to kind
of get a novel from idea to let's submit it

(01:02:31):
to the publisher. Well, that's a big investment of time,
so I'd better be doing things to have joy and
to entertain myself. But you know, I'm working on this
new novel at the moment, and if you look at
the plan, it looks like a fairly serious horror novel

(01:02:55):
with some messed up things that are happening. But then
as I'm writing it is like, can you just imagine
if this character said this, or if this accident happened,
and that would that would be pretty funny, wouldn't it?
And what would what would they do? Then? So I

(01:03:16):
kind of think what I'm beginning to write a lot
of is comedies of error or comedies of incompetence. And
I love writing about criminals, but I like writing about
incompetent criminals. I like writing about crime gone wrong. It'll

(01:03:37):
probably be boring for me to write about hearing these
mastermind criminals and they rob the bank with this super
technology and they just get away with it. I want
to see that. Who didn't notice the CCTV camera? How
are we're going to get out of that one?

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Honestly? That's what I love about your fit is because
you can watch like Oceans twelve all you want and
see the plan executed perfectly and everyone did their role perfectly,
even despite the roadblocks that came along the way. But
that's not real life, Daddy's Boys. Real life, you get
these quirky characters. Everyone's a quirky, like weird and quirky

(01:04:20):
in some way. Right. We all have our things, and
we all, you know, mess up extraordinarily at times, especially
when it's most important that we don't. And so what
I'm getting at is your characters are more realistic there
and that's I think where the joy comes in and
reading them because there are comedy of errors, like you said, yeah,

(01:04:46):
and it's just fun to watch because you can relate
to it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think you know it's about because
you asked, how can I write these really serious things?
But so have the spread of comedy throughout. And I
think it's always about kind of when I'm readdrafting, I'm
really looking closely at every word choice, at every sentence

(01:05:12):
and just making sure do I have the right balance
for that scene? You know. Usually well, with something like
that is boy, it would be more like removing jokes
than adding a new one. There was no need, like
after the first draft to add even more. But I

(01:05:32):
think as well, just having an awareness as to what
is the book that I'm writing or what is the
tone that I'm going for, I think where possible, do
not think about that when you're first drafting a book,
because then that could stifle your creativity. Just write it.
Just write what is true to you and what you

(01:05:55):
are feeling at that moment. There's a little bit similar
in fact what I said when I was answering your
question for the Walk and Talk, because I mean, you know,
when I was younger as well, I worried what if, like,
you know, my family or some people see this or
they notice, ah, you kind of based that off me.

(01:06:18):
And it's like, in the first draft especially, do not
worry about that at all. And you know, when you're redrafting,
you you know, it's like dialing up or dialing down
and just trying to get that tone. I knew that
in having so many jokes that this would be skewering

(01:06:41):
far more towards comedy. I could have removed them, but
I think it would have made us safer, more boring story.
And I think in finding joy and in entertaining myself,
that's a really good way of approaching Beau, because I
really do think if I've entertained myself, then there's going

(01:07:05):
to be other people who are entertained as well. But
if I've like made it boring because I don't know,
a publisher said we need to pad this out a bit.
If I don't believe in it, other people aren't either.
You know, there's a novella that I've got that is
with a publisher at the moment, and the word count

(01:07:31):
is over thirty nine thousand words but just under forty thousand.
If it's over forty thousand, then it will be a novel,
but as it's under, it is technically a novella. And
I looked at that story and I thought, is there
just another scene or just something else that I can

(01:07:53):
do that will just make this another novel? But for
me in the way it is, it's like, no, this
is so tight, this is so the vision that I want.
And so this is why I really do preach the
idea of, you know, writing the story to the length

(01:08:15):
that the story needs to be, that the art needs
it to be. And hopefully, given I've just given you
an example that's let's say thirty nine and six hundred words,
it's like, wow, I'm really backing it up. I wouldn't
add another four hundred and one words to make it
a novel. But yeah, but no, like, what what what

(01:08:36):
am I going to do? Like, because a lot of
my novels are quite sweary, you had like another four
hundred fuckings in? I mean I probably could, but I'm
not going to do that. It's like, as ridiculous as
it might be for somebody who swears so much in
their fiction. Each swear word is deliberately there because it

(01:09:00):
needs to be there. And even when I'm looking at
these sentences on a meticulous level, sometimes I'm omitting some profanities.
Sometimes I'm adding it in. What is the punch, What
is the spice? What is the you know, profanity seasoning
that is required for that for that sentence to taste good.

(01:09:25):
Of course, if it comes back from the publisher and
they want to publish it, and they have a kind
of a very specific note about a scene that they
want to see put in there, then okay, we're going
to turn it into a novel or so you know.
I said there are two motivators. Primary is joy, Secondary

(01:09:48):
is money. If they write the check big enough, I
think we can find four hundred lads.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Yeah, it's hard to peg your stories down too genre wise,
Like there's a lot of crime, sprinkle of horror. I
was wondering where I think we did talk about this

(01:10:19):
the last time I had you on the show. I
wanted to know about genre and what you feel you
right in. But Daddy's Boy is even more interesting because
there is a little bit of horror at the end.
It gets without spoiling anything, it goes pretty wild at
the end, and it's you kind of don't see it
coming either. It's it's awesome. But what we're okay, we

(01:10:41):
we've discussed genre a little bit. You've called it a
dark comedy, but you could also call it a crime.
You could call it a crime slash horror, slash lit
dark comedy. Uh, where do you see it landing?

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
Well, I mean you've very articulated the problem that I
tend to have with my fiction that it is so
difficult to put in any genre bogs, which kind of
creates a problem with the marketing. It creates a problem

(01:11:17):
with approaching publishers. It even creates a problem through the
promotion and talking to people for podcasts, for YouTube channels,
people on Instagram, because it's like, who who do I
send this to? And you know, all the genres that

(01:11:37):
you've mentioned as an argument that it fits into all
of them, but it also doesn't fit into any of
them neatly. You know, if there was a genre on
the bookshelves called dark comedy, then you would put it there.
But if you walk it into a bookstore, there just

(01:11:58):
isn't and you know that. I think you know at
the moment people will put and will shelve my work
in horror because I am the creator of this as horror.
And that's exactly what I was talking about in terms
of just trying to have some distinction there. But I

(01:12:25):
think if if you removed that, it's like it's horror
adjacent again, like Dangers Later and like Max Booth, and
like with both of them, book to book, you're going
to get something slightly different. You know that the girl
in the video is arguably tech horror. It's tech horror,

(01:12:50):
but there's a splash of crime in there too. They're watching,
I think is the most traditional horror that I've ever written.
But you know, it's arguably not traditional horror. But you
could say that that's horror, that's a cult horror, house
of bad memories. I mean, it's crime and it's like

(01:13:13):
dark thriller. But the problem is it's not traditional crime.
Maybe when you think of crime, you think of like
a police procedure role, or you think of like a
detective investigating some grisly murders. It it's almost like it's
it's people committing criminal acts, but it's not traditional crime fiction.

(01:13:40):
And then you come to Dadis Boy. Goddamn, you come
to dad is Boy? What why is this it? We
said it's comedy, but we also decided there is no
comedy sections. And now we've got a problem there. If

(01:14:02):
there is a comedy section, it's probably gonna be almost
non fiction. Michael McIntyre and Steve Coogan and Frankie Boyle
and you've just got all of these like humorous pieces.
Ricky Gervais is there too, So then there's celebrities, and
unfortunately Michael David Wilson is not a celebrity yet, so

(01:14:25):
we can't kind of sneak in there in a way.
In a way, you might just have to put it
in general fiction. But if you're picking that up with
your airport summer readon's going to be a very different
different experience indeed. So you know, I was thinking with this,

(01:14:47):
I was like, do do I need to create a
new genre? Do I just need to come up with
a term? And then do I just keep repeating that
in in views? And then if I repeat it enough,
people are going to associate that with me. Then when
they google it, even if other people write in the genre,

(01:15:09):
then Michael David Wilson comes up cooking. Well, Unfortunately, I'd be.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Wild though, Like if you created a new.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
Genre, I've genuinely given it thought, like I'm it's not
even like a flippant comment, but but I don't know
what it would even be cooled because the problem is
I've got I want to jump into different things. Really,
i just want dark comedy thriller to take off, because

(01:15:42):
it always it doesn't fit in the horror comedy genre
because when you think of horror comedy, you think of
things that are kind of more slapstick or more involving monsters.
And that's the other thing. Like I've always been way
more interested in writing and actually more interested in reading

(01:16:06):
horror that has real life, non supernatural villains. I'm not
that interested in the supernatural for writing. I will read
well written supernatural fiction. But actually my favorite is purely
subjective horror fiction is real life is like Jack ketchierman

(01:16:30):
an your Alborn. It's just real people doing nasty, dark shit.
That's what I'm into, and it is probably because it's
more believable for me. Part of the enjoyment of horror
was that almost rollercoaster like scare. But if there's a ooh,

(01:16:52):
there's a spooky werewolf, well I don't believe in that,
so I'm not as I'm not as scared. It's harder
for me to, you know, suspend this belief, even though
I think the Carnivorous Lunar Activity is written by Max
Booth is an amazing book, but that's for the dark
comedy and for the dire log and just like the tension,

(01:17:17):
brilliant book that Max has written there. I think it
may be one of the few books that is out
of print. So Max is like, what the fuck? Why
are you promoting the one book? It is, like, listen, Max,
I also promoted a book that I'm writing that I
haven't finished yet. I'm good at promoting books that people

(01:17:40):
can't actually get hold of. But yeah, because I'm into horror,
like it, Like, when people think of horror, they probably
think of like monsters and ghosts and the supernatural anyway,
so it's like I'd already made the barriers to entry
perhaps harder by being like, right, well, I like to

(01:18:00):
write horror just with humans, but then that's nearer to crime.
But because it's more messed up, they don't put it
in the crime section. They put it in the horror section,
and then it's like, well, how can we make this
even less commercial? This is not a deliberate question I asked,

(01:18:20):
this is just what happened. Oh well, why don't we
make it comedic too? Yeah? Yeah, and you know so,
I mean, some of my favorite authors are people like
John Niven. He writes what I would say is kind
of dark comedy, but it's kind of more dark thriller satire.

(01:18:41):
But with him, it's very much focused on something specific.
So he writes about the nineties britpop music industry. That's
kind of a hook. That's some social commentary. And a
lot of these comedy is they have like an issue
that there's something that's attached to something that you can

(01:19:04):
really clearly see that is what this is satirizing. But
with Daddy's Boy, it's a commentary on familiar relationships and
on parenthood, but it is not hooked to any big
social or cultural issue. It's incredibly difficult to sell. But

(01:19:28):
in terms of like finding a genre, I couldn't find
like a new genre label that would be succinct and
would really people would get it because it it's a
comedy of errors, but they're not going to write that
on the bookshelf. You know, I wanted something like when
people coined bizarro, but I want my own version of

(01:19:53):
that one word that encapsulates it. But probably what's going
to happen is I'm just gonna have to keep writing
and writing and writing, and hope that eventually, like Joe
ar Lansdale, that people will, you know, with him, they'll say, well,
it's in the Joe ar Lansdale genre. With me, is

(01:20:14):
in the Michael David Wilson genre, and that's what it is.
It's mdw is.

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
Honestly, I could be w cool or whatever. I could
see it going that way because when I read one
of your books, and I've learned this this, like especially
last year, when I read the bulk of your books,
I find myself just slipping in to your writing and
your story, and pretty soon you're forgetting all about any

(01:20:44):
expectations you may have had and you're just enjoying your time.
And that's exactly the way it is with jar Lansdale,
and so suddenly genre doesn't matter anymore. You're just there
because this story is so fucking good and characters are
so fucking good, so I could definitely see it going
that way, where this is just a Michael David Wilson

(01:21:06):
book and it's going to do its own thing and
we're here for it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:12):
Yeah. Yeah, And I mean a number of people, including yourself,
with Daddy's Boy, and I think you said the same
with House of Bad Memories, they'll often say that they
couldn't predict where the story was going to end up. Yeah,
and I think too. I mean, in most of my stories,

(01:21:32):
there's an argument that they shift genres, or they at
least shift sub genre. So I mean, if we look
at House of Bad Memories purely because it's been out
sometimes so perhaps is less spoilery to illustrate with that
rather than Daddy's Boy, I mean, it starts off as

(01:21:54):
this like kind of gritty, dark thriller that's almost like
pres but then it turns into something wild like I
Spit on Your Grave or Old Boy is Fucking Revenge story,
and then by the end it has a kind of
left turn that's almost like kill List. So you know,

(01:22:17):
this is why the only thing that probably people are
going to start to predict is that I'm going to
do something unpredictable, So then maybe I'll fuck with him
by not doing something unpredictable and it's like, why you
didn't predict that? But yeah, that sounds maybe a little unsatisfying,
so we might.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
Have to.

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
Well, if they do like the kind of fake out,
will have to make it look like, oh, he really
did go the predictable path. Then final page that right
there surprised me.

Speaker 1 (01:22:51):
So yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
Yeah, but I yeah, I think as well, because I
do have a tendency to shift genres. It can make
in a way, both the back cover blab and pitching
to publish as or agents quite difficult because if I'm

(01:23:16):
going to pitch to try and do it justice, then
I kind of need to spoil a little bit of it.
But personally, for me, when I read a book or
when I watch a film, I go in as cold
as possible, Like I'm the kind of person who will
be surprised by like almost the inciting incident because I

(01:23:38):
didn't even read what was going to happen. I might
not even know what genre I'm watching.

Speaker 1 (01:23:45):
I think that's with the territory doing these podcasts, get
these reading arcs right or e arcs that you in
preparation for the show, and often you have no idea
what those those books are about, and so yeah, it's
like boom there, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
Yeah. So I like though that people say that they
can't predict where my stories are going, and I think
in a way when I first heard that, it's like, well,
now I want to keep that going, because that is

(01:24:22):
you know, that's a great compliment. But I don't even think.
I don't really need to force that to be a
thing that keeps happening because it's so organically does in
my planning and in the way that my mind works anyway,
I think, because I don't want to write something formulaic.

(01:24:42):
And you know, I don't think there's no such ling
as original ideas or original genres, but there's original ways
of doing it or original kind of shifts and decisions
that you can make. So often I might ask myself, well,

(01:25:03):
what would be what would be the most obvious thing
that could happen next, And it's like, okay, well we're
not doing that, so what do we do now? So
I think, actually, like ending the story that can be

(01:25:23):
the hardest part or the thing where I really have
to have to think and obsess over it the most.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
Yeah, I like how everything kind of comes together too,
like a lot of the elements that you've built throughout
the book by the time it becomes essential sometimes in
some cases for the ending, is that difficult to piece
together or does it happen naturally?

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
Well, I mean, i think I'm a great fan of foreshadowing,
and I've just kind of inserting little easter eggs within
the text. So, I mean, I always plan my novels,
but at the same time, I give myself permission to
deviate from the plan if something better comes along during

(01:26:14):
the writing. But I do need that initial plan to
at least have a sense as to where I intend
to go. And so then through the first draft the
things that I know will definitely happen, I might put
some nods or some references very early on, just as

(01:26:37):
a little wink to the reader, although usually so certain
that it would only be a wink on a secondary reading.
But then once I've done the first draft, and particularly
as I'm getting towards the final draft stage, now now
I can really foreshadow and I can really make sure

(01:26:57):
that what we're doing is it is like relevant, is
tying everything in. So I think someoneost like you asked
it if it takes a lot of work, or if
it comes natural and as paradoxical as it might be,
it it's kind of both. Like it, I am naturally

(01:27:20):
quite good at foreshadowing, but then once I've done numerous drafts,
it's like, Okay, now we're going to take it up
to the next level. Because I like everything to have
a purpose. I don't really want there to be a
mcguffin or something that is just there and there was

(01:27:41):
no point to it. If there's something in and there
seems that there was no point, then probably the point
was to have no point. It was a deliberate decision there.
So yeah, I'm I think being meticulous is the kind
of general theme when something that comes up again and again,

(01:28:02):
which is hopefully something that you know helps me as
an editor as well, because I don't do as much
of it. But I am open to freelance editing too.
I did editing with this as Horror. Really before I
was doing editing, before I was like writing my own

(01:28:24):
fiction into the serious nest that I am now, And
of course before that, I started off with Rebellion Publishing
and other kind of small presses. So I think I
think editing and writing certainly complement one another. Particularly for
the specific nature of foreshadowing and making everything tie together.

Speaker 1 (01:28:48):
Yeah, before we move on to the outro, I was wondering.
We talked a lot about the cursing, and this kind
of came up while we were talking about that. It
made me think suddenly of how some people in reviews
will be like, I didn't like this, They said the
effort too much? Is that ever a consideration to you

(01:29:13):
while you're writing. And I want to know if you've
had any surprising feedback for Daddy's Boy yet despite it
not being released yet, but there are some reviews up,
so any surprising feedback.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
So I mean, firstly, it's not a tremendous concern if
people say, oh, there's too much casting in my fiction.
It's such a part of the texture and what I'm doing. Yeah,
somebody said that to guy Richie R Quentin Tarantino. This
is part of the genre. This is part of the fabric.
This is almost part of a MDW book. So you're

(01:29:55):
going to get cursing in it. And this is replicating
real life. This is real life mostly in the UK
or with British characters. That's I don't know what to
tell you. We say fuck a lot. We say a
lot more than just fuck, And I'm not going to

(01:30:18):
self censor because somebody who wasn't my audience to begin
with doesn't like that. That's okay. You can you can
pick up another book, or you can pick up my book.
And if you're being at tool to kind of do
control f every time they say fuck, you can say
flip or fudge, depending on or flopping. I'm not sure

(01:30:43):
if flopping.

Speaker 1 (01:30:44):
Is that's flopping ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
Yeah, I don't even know do people say that? But
now you can. You can create your own genre in
instead of dickhead, what good you say? You you poorkhead?
You need the old sausage, you.

Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
Know, so you get you're just a frozen sausage.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
Yeah, there are a lot of in Daddy's Boys. So yeah,
it's something like it's something I'm aware of, and it's
something I'm aware of with the podcast as well. I
actually think in the last year I swear less on
the podcast than I used to. I kind of think

(01:31:32):
with swearing in general, it's like if it will elevate
the sentence or the point, then do it, and if
it won't, then don't. Kind Of like punctuation kind of
like any word really, but there is certainly a place
for profanity. And yeah, I I really don't care. Like

(01:31:55):
if somebody says there was a lot of swearing in this,
it's like, well, yeah, no, ship, there was not a revelation.
You're not surprised me with that. So, you know, the
only thing I suppose at the moment, like I'm open
to getting a literary agent, I don't know, would I

(01:32:18):
scrutinize the first page, you're the sample a little bit more.
I think I just make sure that every bit of
profanity counts. But I kind of do that anyway. So,
I mean, we spoke about it before. You might think
there's a lot of swearing in it, but each one
is there to serve a purpose.

Speaker 1 (01:32:40):
So yeah, actually I didn't think so myself, But when
we were talking about it, I was like, yeah, you
know what, there is a lot of swearing, but it's
not something that bothers me. In fact, I appreciate it
because I work blue collar jobs and whatnot. And let
me tell you, man, like, swearing is a way of life.
It's a very easy way to annoy nunciate your emotions, right, right,

(01:33:03):
But some people don't get that. They just I don't
know what it is, but they're like, you know, polate
society or whatever you want to call it. They're just
totally offended by it. And that's something that's always interested
me and bothered me at the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:33:19):
Yeah, I mean it kind of reminds me like I'm
gonna kind of butcher it. And there's been different people
who have made this point before, so I don't even
need to give like a specific example, but you'll see,
like somebody will have a rant about a really deplorable person.

(01:33:44):
Let's imagine in this situation it's Hitler, because generally it's
not too controversial to be like Hitler, he was a
bad guy. And then someone might be like, you know,
hit Hitler is absolute fucking cunt, and they're like, well,
I mean he was, but but what was it? Was

(01:34:05):
it really necessary to to use such a course language.
I mean, I don't really think that was appropriate. And
it got hang on a fucking minute. It is like
you are taking issue with the fact that I called
Hitler a fucking cunt, rather than the fact that he

(01:34:30):
sent millions of people predominantly Jewish to a concentration camp
and killed them. And and you want to you want
to take issue the fact that I used it's disgusting,
a horrible, beastly word. Oh fuck, you get some fucking perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:34:57):
Yeah, it's much more effective to say a fucking currant
than a floppy Willie Wegg. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:04):
And it's like, what what would you what would you
prefer me to kill a mass fucking murderer or would
you prefer somebody who who commits jenes? I did? Do you?
Was it necessary to go?

Speaker 1 (01:35:18):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
Yes it was. If you can find a more apropos
phrase than calling Hitler a fucking caunt, then you're right
into me. There may be people listening now because also,
like in the UK and in Australia, kunt is very
much part of everyday parlance. It's interesting that in America, oh,

(01:35:44):
people don't like that word a little bit. Up and
after that, I know that the majority of my audience
is American, and so I presume is your YouTube channel,
and they're like, well until he through the through the
C word out, he said, so indeed it was to Hitler.

(01:36:08):
It wasn't like to anyone else. It was Hitler. So
let's put that in context.

Speaker 1 (01:36:17):
Yeah, it's ridiculous, right, And and and in terms of
like surprising feedback with early reviews, I would say, no,
not surprising feedback, because I.

Speaker 2 (01:36:32):
I always knew when I wrote this book that it
would be divisive, that it would be polarizing, that there
there will be people who will love it and there
will be people who will hate it, and that's kind
of I mean, I got that to a point with
beta readers. I've got that a little bit even with

(01:36:55):
early reviews, and I understand that especially Yeah, because I'm
convinced there is a massive audience for Daddy's Boy. But
what I don't entirely know is how to find that audience.
And that's because it sits between genres and it's not
easily classifiable. So it means that there will be people

(01:37:18):
within horror who will pick it up. There will be
people within the crime fiction community who pick it up,
and it won't be for them, and I've always known
that that would be the case. You know, I don't
feel great, you know, when I hear that people have
had a bad time with it, but not in a

(01:37:41):
way that kind of damages my ego. But just because
I like being kind to people, I want people who
pick up my book to have a good time. I
want them to enjoy it, and if you don't enjoy it,
don't pick it up. I don't want you to waste
your money, your time. So, you know, the more that

(01:38:03):
I write as me, the more that people will know
what to expect. And I suppose, because I'm in the
infancy of my career, is not entirely known yet by people,
but it. You know, what I'm delighted by though, is like,
for such a polarizing book, how so many people who

(01:38:27):
have enjoyed my fiction before are also with me for
this step too. You know, when I sent this out
for Blurbs, I primarily sent it out to people who
write comedic horror or write things that kind of flirts
with comedy. The one wild card who I sent it

(01:38:49):
out with, and I don't I have no idea how
he's going to react, but he really enjoyed House of
Bad Memories. I just want to take a chance, And
that was Eric larcer Because Eric Larker. Eric Larker is
one of the best writers on the planet and he

(01:39:09):
writes just such poetical, beautifully grotesque horror and dark fiction.
He is controversial, he will push boundaries. Yep, he is
a true artist. But you know, Eric Larker on the

(01:39:32):
page at least, and probably in person two, He's not
renowned for dick jokes. It's not like, oh, if you
want to teledict jo, you fucking ringer. Eric, He's the one.
So I knew that he'd enjoyed House of Bad Memories,
so it's like, okay, that's a good start. How will

(01:39:55):
Eric find Daddy's Boy? And and then you know, he
came back and he really he gave me a wonderful
blurb for it. So I was so happy. But I
didn't know if I was going to get an email,
you know, from Eric, you know, saying like I you know,

(01:40:16):
because he's so polite, so he would have said, you know,
he's really sorry. But it wasn't for him me cunning,
good conscience blurb this or whatever, and I would have
totally understood. But instead I get this gorgeous blurb. So
I'm going to read it to you, so sure this

(01:40:36):
is me not knowing how is Eric going to react?
And I get this dripping with wit and nastiness. Michael
David Wilson's Daddy's Boy is a gem of a dark
comedy thriller as always, Wilson's prose is fiery and provocative.
This excellent novel took me by the throat on the

(01:40:58):
first page and through surprised me until the bitter end.
Holy fucking shit, I guess Eric liked it.

Speaker 1 (01:41:07):
Then, well you know what, he fucking nailed it. That
is your book in a nutshell, and it's a It's
beautiful in a very funny and upsetting way. And thank
you for thank you for sharing it with me because
I can't wait until the audio book comes out because

(01:41:28):
I want to listen to that, I want to reread
it with my eyes. I want to get the physical book.
I absolutely adored it. It's my favorite from you right now,
and I can't wait to read more from you, honestly.

Speaker 2 (01:41:42):
Yeah and yeah, well, I mean hopefully you won't have
to wait too long to read more from me, because,
as I said, I've got the novella thirty nine thousand words,
almost a novel. They pay me enough, it becomes a novel,
and that is that is ready to go. That's with
a publisher at the moment. We'll see what happens on

(01:42:06):
that front. But yeah, this story is ready to ship.
Then I've got this other novel that I'm working on
that I really I want that one to be finished
by the end of the year. And I also want,
if possible, the collaborative novel with John Crinnin to be

(01:42:28):
finished by the end of the year. That's one book
ready to go. That's two books hopefully ready to go
by the end of the year. And then there's also
sixty thousand words of another novel I need to revisit.
So you know, one thing's for sure. I'm going to
keep writing fiction. And I guess you know, because it

(01:42:57):
doesn't fit into as you rebots, they are harder to
sell that There are sometimes times where I don't know.
I just feel like what am I doing? What is
the next step? But when I talk to people like
you and I get blurbs like I have from Eric,

(01:43:18):
is like, I don't know one hundred percent what I'm
going to do. But what I do know is I'm
going to keep writing. I'm going to put these stories
into the world. And rather than compromising the MDW voice,
I'm just doubling down and embracing it. And I'm being

(01:43:40):
me because I might not have all the answers, but
I think writing honestly and authentically is the kind of
truest and the best way to be. We don't know
what the future will hold. We can't control everything, but
we can control or what we do. And what I

(01:44:01):
do is write these weird, fucking sweary stories with a
lot of comedy. Yeah, I'm gonna continue doing it, and
I'm hugely appreciative of your support. Like it's so, it's
so good to hit it. Basically every book I've written,
it's resonated with you. That's that's a good hit rate.

Speaker 1 (01:44:24):
Well, it's weird because like every book, it gets better.
I enjoyed the Girl in the video. That was great,
But then I listened to the audiobook of their watching
and that was really great. And then House of Bad Memories,
I was like, wow, that's my favorite. I love that one.
And then I read Daddy's Boy and it was like,

(01:44:45):
Jesus Christ, how can how can it even get better
than this? Like I'll say one more compliment. And I
think it was on the Arc podcast where uh this
was pushed around. But I would personally love to see
Daddy's Boy become like a cult favorite, a cult classic

(01:45:08):
in the future. I would love to see it become
I know you discussed on that podcast about how you
or your film agent said that he couldn't he's not
sure how he could sell that. But while watching it's
very cinematic in a sense, I could see it being
a movie, and it would if it was done by
the right person. It would become a cult classic. There

(01:45:30):
would be no even if it flopped in the theaters,
it would be remembered because this book is just that
crazy and that good and I would love to see
that happen.

Speaker 2 (01:45:41):
Yeah, well, me too, absolutely, And I mean, this is it.
When I knew that I was putting it out into
the world, I felt it could either completely flop because
there's this the appetite for this. It's not the Naughties,

(01:46:02):
it's not the two tens anymore. Or it could become
a cult classic. There could be something about it. And
you know, with any book, and maybe even particularly this one,
I won't know whether it will become a cult classic

(01:46:24):
until it does. So if I release it and it
doesn't do very well in the first month, this is
a lung game. It just takes somebody in a couple
of years picking it up and then you know, reading
out loud on like you know that massive Instagram. I

(01:46:45):
always joke that it will be Zach Gallifanakis and he's
reading these like dick jokes, and then loads of people
decide to pick it up. I mean, I think it's
got the potential of like, you know, a Napoleon Dynamite
or a greasy Strangler. There's just something weird and an
offbeat about it. And this is why I keep writing

(01:47:09):
these books, because if one of them takes off, then
people will be curious and they'll look into the rest
of the back catalog. But it is an interesting traject
to read that I've taken because the most popular book
so far has been The Girl in the Video, and

(01:47:30):
then with each release, I've written further and further away
from what The Girl in the Video was. But I think,
you know, each book has been honest and has been
true to me. The Girl in the Video is the
most commercial, the kind of most kind of easily palatable.

(01:47:54):
But then I'm interested in just doing something a little
bit more obscure. Be interested to see how the novella does.
It's called What Would Wesley Do. I originally wrote it
as a short story, then I then wrote a screenplay,
and then from the screenplay wrote the novella. But this

(01:48:17):
is interesting because I originally wrote the short story around
the time that I wrote The Girl in the Video,
but then I wrote the novella version around the time
of Daddy's Boy and House of Bad Memories. So the

(01:48:39):
Girl in the video and they're watching I see them
as a phase or a season of my career, and
House of Bad Memories and Daddy's Boy as the next one.
But what would Wesley do? It definitely has the fast
paced kind of thriller, ticking time clock aspect of the
Girl in the Video, but it has the comedy and

(01:49:02):
the action and the grotesque violence of House and Daddy's Boy.

Speaker 1 (01:49:07):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:49:09):
So maybe this is the Secret Sauce. Maybe this is
maybe you know, any book you right could could be
the one. Yeah, which is why I keep writing.

Speaker 1 (01:49:24):
Yeah, I like that. I think I found the Secret Sauce.

Speaker 2 (01:49:29):
Yeah, don't ask what's in the Secret Sauce with Norman
and Daddy's Boy. No, it doesn't need to be stated.

Speaker 1 (01:49:38):
You don't want to know. Oh man, some of those
characters like like uh, Comeing, Ian, Come Ian. Oh my god. Okay,
So I'm going to wrap things up here. I want
to I want to thank you so much for coming
on the show. It's always a pleasure to talk to

(01:49:59):
you before we go, though, I do have a question,
this is horror question. I'm just okay, I'm just curious.
What can listeners of This as Horror expect for the
rest of twenty twenty five, For.

Speaker 2 (01:50:14):
The rest of twenty twenty five.

Speaker 1 (01:50:16):
At least in the short short period of time.

Speaker 2 (01:50:19):
I mean, what you can expect is that we will
consistently put out interviews and conversations with authors and creatives
in horror fiction on a weekly and possibly multiple times
per week basis. That is kind of the mainstay of
This Is Horror. What I'm particularly doing in twenty twenty five,

(01:50:44):
I'm talking to authors if I love their book, I
don't want to talk if I only liked your book.
I want to make sure that I'm so passionate about
what I'm doing. This is about finding the joy in
everything that I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (01:51:00):
M hm.

Speaker 2 (01:51:00):
In terms of you know what's coming up, I mean,
we we do have our own kind of Daddy's Boy episodes,
and we've also got some conversations that very Daddy's Boy
tangentle in that I'm talking to people who blurbed Daddy's Boy,
but not necessarily about Daddy's Boy. So we've got a

(01:51:24):
conversation with Dangers later, and we'll be recording with Jason
Padjin and with Brian Asman, and with Jasper Bark nice
and in terms of the rest of you know, the
year and things coming up, Will will finally be talking
to CJ. Lead, who wrote American Rapture, amongst other books,

(01:51:54):
landing what what was that?

Speaker 1 (01:51:55):
Sorry?

Speaker 2 (01:51:58):
Well she did. We should also be talking to Dean
Koontz again. It's always good to get him on the show.
It's always surreal. He's got a new book that's coming
out imminently. And you know, in terms of the booking
of guests, I'm trying not to overbook, and my schedule

(01:52:22):
is such that it is kind of a little bit erratic.
So there's people who I've got a list of people
where it's like I will be getting them on the show,
but we haven't arranged a date yet, so all I
can say is, you know, people who are vaguely in
the horror and dark comedy and that kind of area

(01:52:45):
which lights me up, we will be talking to them.

Speaker 1 (01:52:48):
Yeah, awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to all of it,
and thank you again. Where can people reach you online
if they want to keep up with what's coming out?

Speaker 2 (01:52:59):
Well, I mean, obviously the best way to support me
is the Patreon Patreon dot com forward slash Michael David Wilson.
And then for this is Horror Patreon dot com forward
slash This is Horror. In terms of social media, it's
obviously got pretty fragmented over the last year or so.

(01:53:20):
I think the place where I update the most is
the Blue Sky, which is at this is Horror dot
bsky dot social And with this as Horror, we also
do have a YouTube channel where we put all of
the episodes up, which is YouTube dot com forward slash

(01:53:41):
at this is Horror podcast. So I went different options.

Speaker 1 (01:53:47):
I will try to put all that in the show notes,
so everyone check that out. And thank you Michael. I
can't wait to talk to you again.

Speaker 2 (01:53:57):
Yeah, thank you. It is always a plan. And thank
you one more time for all the support that you've
given me, not just for Daddy's a Boy, but over
the years.

Speaker 1 (01:54:07):
Yeah, not a problem. Thank you so much for listening
to my conversation with Michael David Wilson. I had a
blast and I can't wait to talk to him again.
Go buy his book, Daddy's Boy. The link for that
will be in the description. It drops the same day

(01:54:28):
as this recording, so I hope you're all prepared for
one hell of a good ride. It's a lot of fun.
If you want to support Weird Reads, there's a few
ways you can do so. The free and easiest way
is to go rate the podcast on Spotify, and you
can also rate it and review it on Apple Podcasts.

(01:54:53):
If you do that, this helps both those platforms find
a way to share this show with other people who
might enjoy it, and that helps the show grow, and
I would like to see it grow. I hope that
you would like to see it grow as well. And
if you want to support with your money, you can
do so easily by joining the Patreon and that's at

(01:55:18):
patreon dot com. Forward slash Jason Underscore white links for
that will be in the show notes, and there's a
few different tiers there. But the money goes into helping me.
It helps the show be hosted, it helps me not
have to pay I've been paying for this type of

(01:55:38):
stuff for over ten years. It would be really helpful
if you could help, just with the hosting costs alone,
but I would also like to upgrade my equipment, and
of course becoming a Patreon would help with that. All right,
so thanks again for listening. I appreciate everyone who does listen,
and until next time, being weird because being weird is

(01:56:03):
so important in these days. And we will catch you
in the next episode.

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054 - Writing Through Depression: Michael David Wilson Talks Daddy’s Boy

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}054 - Writing Through Depression: Michael David Wilson Talks Daddy’s Boy