19. The Underground Bishops - Leading During Persecution

For two centuries, popes led a forbidden faith from the shadows of the Roman Empire. This episode explores how bishops like Telesphorus, Anicetus, and Callistus maintained church cohesion despite imperial persecution, navigating both external threats and internal theological conflicts. From Telesphorus's martyrdom to the baptismal controversies under Stephen I, these underground leaders created administrative and doctrinal frameworks that would prepare the church for its eventual emergence from the catacombs.



For two centuries, popes led a forbidden faith from the shadows of the Roman Empire. This episode explores how bishops like Telesphorus, Anicetus, and Callistus maintained church cohesion despite imperial persecution, navigating both external threats and internal theological conflicts. From Telesphorus's martyrdom to the baptismal controversies under Stephen I, these underground leaders created administrative and doctrinal frameworks that would prepare the church for its eventual emergence from the catacombs

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Calarogu shark media. In a small, dimly lit room beneath
the streets of ancient Rome, a group gathers in whispered prayer.
Their leader, a man named Tellus for Us, speaks words
of encouragement, despite knowing that discovery could mean execution. As

(00:25):
Bishop of Rome in the one thirty CE, he leads
a community that exists in the shadows, illegal, periodically persecuted
and regarded with suspicion by the dominant culture. Unlike their
modern successors, who rule from magnificent palaces and command global attention,
these early bishops led a marginalized, occasionally hunted religious minority.

(00:48):
Their stories, often ending in martyrdom, reveal a papacy forged
in resistance and survival rather than power and privilege. Today,
we examine the popes who led the Roman Church during
its underground period from approximately one hundred to three hundred
thirteen CE, when Christianity existed as an illegal religion in

(01:10):
the Roman Empire. This is the story of the bishops
who led a forbidden faith. This is White Smoke Episode nineteen,
the underground Bishops leading during persecution. To understand the challenges

(01:31):
facing early popes, we must first understand the religious context
of the Roman Empire. Unlike modern secular states that separate
religion from governance, Rome integrated religious practice into every aspect
of public life. Citizens demonstrated loyalty through participation in state cults,
offering sacrifices to the emperor and traditional gods to ensure

(01:55):
divine favour for the empire. Roman religion was fundaments concerned
with maintaining proper relations between humans and gods, explains Dr
Mary Beard, professor of Classics at Cambridge University. Refusing to
participate wasn't just a personal choice, but a potential threat
to community welfare. This made Christianity, with its rejection of

(02:18):
traditional cults, inherently suspicious from a Roman perspective. Roman authorities
initially viewed Christianity as a bizarre Jewish sect, but as
the new religion spread and distinguished itself from Judaism, officials
increasingly regarded it as a potentially subversive movement. Christian's refusal
to worship the emperor or traditional gods, their secret meetings,

(02:42):
and their talk of another kingdom suggested disloyalty to Rome.
This suspicion created a precarious legal position. While the Empire
didn't consistently enforce religious conformity, Christians remained vulnerable to periodic crackdowns. Pliny,
the younger governor of Busines Thinnia Pontus, wrote to Emperor
Trajan around one hundred twelve CE, asking how to handle Christians.

(03:06):
Trajan's response established a pattern that would persist for nearly
two centuries. Christians shouldn't be actively sought out, but those
reported and confirmed as believers should be punished if they
refused to recant. For the bishops of Rome leading this
suspect community, this legal uncertainty created constant pressure. They never

(03:27):
knew when tolerance might suddenly shift to active persecution. While
tradition holds that all earliest popes died as martyrs, historical
evidence for many of these claims remains questionable. With Telesphorus, however,
who allegedly led the Roman Church from approximately one hundred
twenty six to one hundred thirty seven CE, we encounter

(03:48):
the first pope whose martyrdom is attested by a near
contemporary source. Around one hundred eighty C. Irenaeus of Lions
specifically mentioned Telesphorus as that blessed and faithful martyr. This
relatively early reference lends credibility to the martyrdom tradition, though
details of his death remain unknown. The Liber pontificalis later

(04:13):
claimed Tellsphorus was beheaded, but this specific claim appears centuries
after the event. Beyond his martyrdom, Telesphorus is credited with
several liturgical innovations, including the institution of Christmas Midnight Mass
and the Gloria Hymn. However, these attributions likely represent later
practices retroactively assigned to earlier popes, rather than historical innovations.

(04:39):
The pattern of attributing later liturgical developments to early popes
served an important legitimizing function, notes doctor Joseph White, professor
of Church History at Catholic University of America. By connecting
contemporary practices to Apostolic era figures, the church emphasized continuity,
despite the actual historical development of these trees. Additions, what

(05:01):
seems more historically plausible is that Tellusporus led during a
period when Christianity was developing more standardized worship forms. Archaeological
evidence from the second century reveals increasingly distinct Christian gathering
spaces within private homes, suggesting more formalized community practices. One

(05:22):
of the earliest documented interactions between a pope and another
prominent Christian leader occurred around one hundred fifty four CE,
when Polycarp, elderly bishop of Smyrna and disciple of the
Apostle John, visited Pope Nicitus in Rome. Their meeting, recorded
by later church historians, centered on the proper date for

(05:43):
celebrating Easter, with Eastern churches following one calculation method and
Rome another. This encounter reveals several important aspects of developing
papal authority. First, that a revered Eastern bishop traveled to
Rome for consultation demonstrates the Roman Church's growing importance within
the broader Christian community. Second, that Aneestus and Polycarp failed

(06:08):
to reach agreement but parted amicably shows that papal authority
was not yet considered absolute or unquestionable. The Anecetus Polycarp
meeting exemplifies how authority functioned in the second century Church,
explains Dr George Democopolis, professor of historical theology at Fordham University.

(06:29):
Leadership operated through consultation and persuasion rather than unilateral decree.
The Roman bishop was an important voice, but not yet
the final arbiter in all disputes. This consultative model of
authority suited the underground church's reality. Without institutional power or
legal recognition, early popes relied on moral authority and persuasive

(06:52):
leadership rather than formal jurisdiction. Their influence derived from rome
status as an apostolic church, its lowcation in the imperial capital,
and its reputation for doctrinal reliability. By the late second century,
we begin to see more assertive claims of Roman authority,
particularly during the pontificate of Victor the First approximately one

(07:14):
hundred eighty nine to one hundred ninety nine CE. The
Easter dating controversy continued, and Victor took a dramatically different
approach than anecetas, threatening to excommunicate Asian churches that maintained
their distinct celebration date. This unprecedented assertion of authority generated
significant pushback. Irenaeus and other bishops wrote to Victor urging

(07:39):
moderation and respect for regional diversity. The controversy revealed both
the expanding conception of papal authority and its practical limitations
in the pre Constantine church. Victor's actions represent an important
turning point notes doctor Am and Duffy, we see for
the first time a bishop of Rome claiming authority to

(08:00):
dictate practice to other major sees and enforce compliance through communion.
Exclusion that other bishops successfully urged restraint shows this authority
remained contested, but the claim itself marks a significant development.
Victor's pontificate coincided with a period of relative peace for
Christians under Emperor Commodus, allowing more visible organization and bolder

(08:25):
assertions of authority. Archaeological evidence from this period shows Christian
communities in Rome establishing more permanent gathering spaces and developing
more elaborate administrative structures. Internal divisions within the Roman Church
became visible during the early third century, particularly in the
conflict between Pope Callistus two hundred seventeen to two hundred

(08:48):
twenty two CE and his rival Hippolytus, sometimes considered the
first anti Pope. Their dispute centered primarily on approaches to
penance and readmission of sinners to the community. Callistus, according
to Hippolytus's polemical account, adopted more lenient policies, allowing formal
reconciliation for Christians who had committed serious sins like adultery

(09:11):
or apostasy, denying the faith under persecution, Hippolytus advocated stricter
standards and accused Callistus of dangerous laxity. When Callistus was
elected pope, Hippolytis apparently established a rival community, creating a
schism within the Roman Church. The Callistus Hippolytus conflict reveals

(09:33):
important developments in both papal election and theological authority, explains
doctor Candida Moss. By this period, the papacy had become
significant enough that succession disputes could generate rival factions. Additionally,
the dispute shows the pope's growing role in establishing disciplinary
norms rather than simply preserving tradition. What makes this conflict

(09:57):
particularly remarkable is that both men were later read recognized
as saints despite their bitter opposition. According to tradition, Callistus
died as a martyr during a local persecution in Rome. Hippolytus,
after years as a chismatic leader, was reportedly reconciled to
the church before being exiled with Pope Pontian during the

(10:18):
persecution under Emperor Maximinus Thrax in two hundred thirty five.
Ce and died in the minds of Sardinia. This reconciliation
and dual recognition illustrates the early Church's capacity to integrate
opposing perspectives over time, acknowledging the good faith and ultimate
witness of figures who had been bitterly divided in life.

(10:40):
The mid third century saw increasingly systematic persecutions that directly
targeted church leadership. Emperor Deitius issued an empire wide edict
in two hundred fifty CAE requiring all citizens to perform
sacrifices to the traditional gods and obtained certificates confirming their compliance.

(11:01):
This direct attack on Christian identity created enormous pressure on
the community and its leaders. Pope Fabianus became one of
the first victims of this persecution, martyred in January two
fifty His death created not only emotional trauma but practical challenges,
as the Roman Church remained without a bishop for over
a year due to the intensity of the persecution. When

(11:25):
Cornelius was finally elected pope in March two hundred fifty one,
he faced not only ongoing external danger but internal division
over how to treat Christians who had obtained sacrifice certificates
or actually performed the sacrifices under persecution. A priest named
Novatian advocated permanent exclusion of these lapsed Christians, while Cornelius

(11:48):
supported a path to reconciliation through penance. This disagreement led
to the second Major Chism, with Novatian establishing himself as
a rival bishop supported by those favoring strict discipline. The
conflict extended beyond Rome, drawing in bishops from other regions
who supported various positions on the readmission question. The persecution

(12:11):
politics of this period fundamentally shaped papal development, notes Dr.
Allan Brent. Martyrdom itself became a source of authority, with
popes like Fabianus gaining moral stature through their ultimate witness. Simultaneously,
practical questions about handling mass apostasy required popes to exercise

(12:32):
more explicit judicial authority in determining conditions for reconciliation. These
pressures continued when Cornelius himself was exiled in two hundred
fifty three CE, dying shortly afterward. His successor, Lucius, was
also immediately exiled, though briefly allowed to return to Rome
before his death. Despite or perhaps because of these external pressures.

(12:57):
The mid third century saw significant development in papal administrative structures.
Under Pope Fabian, the Roman Church was divided into seven
ecclesiastical districts, each overseen by a deacon. This organization enabled
more effective ministry during periods when the bishop might be
killed or exiled, creating institutional continuity beyond individual leaders. Additionally,

(13:23):
the Roman Church developed more systematic record keeping and correspondence practices.
Letters between Pope Cornelius and Cyprian of Carthage reveal an
increasingly formal communication system, addressing both theological questions and practical coordination.
The church began maintaining lists of clergy widows receiving support
and Christians imprisoned for their faith. These administrative developments represented

(13:48):
a crucial bureaucratic revolution that enabled institutional survival despite leadership disruption,
explains doctor Kate Cooper. By distributing responsibilities and forming procedures,
the Roman Church created structures that could withstand the loss
of individual leaders during persecution. This organizational development coincided with

(14:11):
the church's growing economic activities. By the mid third century,
the Roman Church owned property, operated cemeteries, and administered significant
charitable resources. Pope Cornelius noted that the church supported over
one thousand, five hundred widows and poor individuals, indicating substantial
financial operations requiring administrative oversight. The growing assertion of Roman

(14:44):
authority generated significant friction during the Pontificate of Stephen I,
particularly regarding the validity of baptisms performed by heretical or
chismatic groups. Stephen maintained that such baptisms were valid provided
they used the cre direct formula and need not be
repeated when converts entered the Catholic Church. Cyprian of Carthage

(15:06):
and many North African and Eastern bishops argued that baptisms
outside the church were invalid and converts must be rebaptized.
This dispute illustrates the increasing complexity of papal authority claims.
Stephen asserted that his position should prevail based on Rome's
pre eminence, famously citing the Chair of Peter as the

(15:27):
basis for his authority. Cyprian, while acknowledging Rome's importance, maintained
that each bishop possessed equal authority within their jurisdiction and
major questions should be resolved through episcopal councils rather than
papal decree. The conflict became heated, with Stephen allegedly threatening
excommunication against those who maintained the rebaptism position. However, his

(15:52):
martyrdom during the Valerian Persecution in two hundred and fifty
seven CE prevented further escalation. The controversy remained unresolved for decades,
though the Roman position eventually became standard practice throughout the church.
The relative peace of the late third century ended with
the Great Persecution launched by Emperor Diocletian in three THREECEE.

(16:16):
This final and most systematic persecution targeted church buildings and scriptures,
as well as leaders, attempting to destroy Christianity's material and
textual foundations alongside its human leadership. Pope's Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius
and Miltiades led the Roman Church through this tumultuous final

(16:38):
phase of underground existence. Their pontificates saw renewed internal conflicts
over treatment of the lapsed confiscation of church properties, and
eventually the beginning of imperial toleration under Constantine. Miltiades in
particular experienced the dramatic transition from persecution to imperial favour,

(16:59):
becoming hope shortly after Emperor Galirius issued an edict of
Toleration in three hundred eleven CE. He witnessed Constantine's victory
at the Milvian Bridge in three hundred twelve CE and
the subsequent Edict of Milan in three hundred thirteen CE
that established legal recognition for Christianity. Miltiades represents the bridge

(17:22):
between underground and imperial Christianity, observes doctor Michelle Salzmann. Having
experienced persecution firsthand, he suddenly found himself administering a church
receiving imperial patronage. This transition fundamentally transformed both the papacy's
self understanding and its practical operations. The legacies of these

(17:43):
underground bishops continued to shape the papacy even as it
emerged into public legitimacy. The martyrs provided moral authority and
models of courageous leadership. The theological disputes established precedents for
exercising doctrinal judgment. The administrative developments created organizational foundations for

(18:04):
rapid expansion. Most significantly, these popes established a tradition of
institutional resilience and adaptability that would enable the papacy to
survive the eventual fall of the Roman Empire itself. By
learning to function without state support, indeed under state opposition,
they created a church capable of outlasting the very political

(18:26):
structures that persecuted it. White Smoke is a production of
Calaroga Shark Media, portions of which were made with the
help of Ai Narration. The following is a paid presentation
of the Happiness Experiment.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Ah, I'm so excited to talk to you, Carl, talk
to be a guy who's had this illustrious business career.
What made you decide to write a book unhappiness? You
could have gone in some of the other directions.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
Well, actually I didn't, Darnie. I didn't decide to write
a book. Thing happened, this Happiness Experiment happened in real life,
in real terms. I had no idea about writing a book,
but I saw it working. The experiment was working. My
friends and family were getting happier, They're increasing their happiness,
and I saw it. So I thought I need to
write about this. And so that's when I got into

(19:18):
writing the book.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
And talk to me about prequested. Talk to me what
it's about and how it's the foundation of things.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
Well, it came about through three major things that happened
in life. When I almost died in a plane crash.
If you read the book, you'll find out whether I
survived or not. The other thing that happened was I
got a call from my sister in England. She told
me her husband was dying. He had six months to live.
So I flew to England and she was in my
will and I said, Janet, you're in my will as

(19:45):
a bequest, but that's something you need right now, so
I'm going to make it a prequest. I'm going to
bring that bequest forward and pay it to you now
while you can enjoy it and your husband can fulfill
the last wishes. She was overjoyed, burst into tears of course,
and said, he says great. My brother was there at
the same time, and I said, Barry, since I've done
this too for my sister, I'm going to bring your

(20:06):
bequest forward, make it a prequest. And he said, oh,
that's fabulous, thank you very much. You're very generous. His
wife and ballistic, she said, this is too much money.
It's wrong. I don't want anything to do with it,
and stormed out of the room. So that was a
real surprise. She got over it. And the next thing
that happened is I look at my investments. I got
a lot of money sitting investments, not doing anything. Wasn't

(20:28):
working for me, wasn't working for my friends. So I said,
why don't I use this money for my own success
and happiness and also for my friends, the people that
helped me get to be wealthy and successful. That's what
I did.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
So it's not a one time thing. This is kind
of a lifetime experiment, if you will.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, it turned out that way because I didn't want
to just give people money and say, you know, be happy.
I said, I want this to enrich your life, be
something special. So I'd like you to think about it.
It plan something, write a happiness plan. And they asked,
what's a happiness plan. I said, when I get that,
I'll give you all the money, and well, let's see
how it works out.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
So you talk about coaching and grants to reshape and
change lives, which is timely given what's going on in
the world today.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
And the thing is that it wasn't just about the money, Donnie.
The money is important. We love money, it's good to
have it. But what really worked with these people was
the planning with a happiness coach. They thought about carefully
what they wanted to do that's going to enrich their life,
make them happier, what things they love, things that they
were fascinated with, and they wrote all that down with

(21:40):
a happiness coach. They had a plan. And as soon
as I got the plan, I said, here's the money,
all of it. It's all yours. You don't owe me anything,
no strings attached. And they went off and started becoming happier.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
It's incredible. So the inspiration for this was just your
your death experience.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
That was part of it, but it was a number
of things that happened. First off, I was very, very
grateful for the people that helped me to become successful,
and I wanted it. Being grateful is terrific. Okay, we
love that you talk about gratitude and gratitude journaling all
those sort of things, But the real thing is is
expressing the gratitude, telling somebody how much you care about them,

(22:21):
appreciating what they did for you, writing a letter. It
doesn't have to be about money. It can be possessions.
It can be money, it can be attention, could be time,
it can be knowledge, your wisdom, that you share with
younger people. But it's what you're doing while you're still
alive that counts. When you did it's.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Over itat It's such a simple but brilliant point. And
how do you think, let's say play this out that
people kind of really buy into this intentional happiness and prequesting.
How does the world become a better place. Let's take
this up ten thousand feet it would be great.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
Well, the reason I wrote the book is I want
this idea to get into the world so that certainly
the wealthy people, they can do the prequesting make themselves
and their friends and family happier right now while they're
still alive. The other thing, I want the book to
show how these people planned, thought about their happiness, created
a happiness plan, and then worked at and to become happier.

(23:13):
And others can learn from their experiences, reading their plans
and then doing the same thing. And in the back
of my book there's a workbook which goes through that
step by step and a plan to increase your happiness.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
How do we get this into the workplace, into schools
and kind of really to your point, get this in.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
There, you know, that would be lovely if it went
into the schools, and I think in high schools this
would be a really good subject to put on the curriculum.
What is happiness? How do you achieve happiness?

Speaker 2 (23:42):
What's it all about? What is happiness?

Speaker 3 (23:45):
It's a great question. You'll have to read my book.
But if it in short, in short emotion, we all
know what happiness is. It's feeling good, it's joyful, it's exhilaration,
it's loving life is That's what it is. A feeling.
But it's also a mindset that you have to think
that I deserve happiness. I want to be happy. I'm
taking my happiness seriously. So it's heart and mind, not

(24:08):
just one or the other. So it's that combination. But really,
I get but a whole chapter in the book on
what is happiness? And it's a it's a it's a
great chapter. You'll love the book.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Now. A lot of people I cannot cannot wait to
read it. I'm so excited, Like just turned on listening
to you. A lot of people equate happiness to financial
success and things. And what am I going to learn
in the book about that?

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Well, happiness, money is important. Okay, let's let's get that
off the table listen, But it's not going to buy
you happiness. The good use of money is really important
how you do it, but it's it's it's the mindset.
It's the pursuit of happiness that counts. Taking your happiness seriously,
wanting what you want, and what you want is important,

(24:51):
your dreams, your purposes in life, what you want to
achieve in your career, what you want to treat with
your family, what you want to achieve. Purpose is all
around what you value. Are you pursuing those values, are
you living those values? This is what it's all about.
Money helps, but it's all those other spiritual things, if
you like, psychological things, that are really the root of happiness.

(25:15):
And as we all know, some people very rich and
they're very unhappy. And this is a lot of people
people want to be really happy.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
I a would say money could solve problems, but it
can't buy your happiness. But you certainly can throw into problems.
But that's about the extent of it. So let's play
this out. How does the right now the world could
use this more than ever. So how do let's say
if I just did this fantasy and said, okay, everybody's
gonna everybody's going to do this prequest. Everybody's going to

(25:43):
do the happiness planning. How does the world look different?

Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, as you know, Donnie, when you're happy, your family
tends to be happy, your friends are happier, and happiness ripples,
it spreads. And if this idea gets into the world,
which I'm I'm working very hard to do, get it
into the world. Talking to you, because you're going to
buy lots of these books and you're going to tell
all your friends about it.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Right, So I am, yes, I am.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
If this goes, it spreads, it ripples. It doesn't stay
just with you, It goes down to your family, to
your friends, and to your community. And if a lot
of wealthy people did this, and it's not just about wealth,
it's possessions, it's time, it's love, it's wisdom that we
can share with others while we're still alive here and now.
And if that gets into the world and there's a
lot of people start doing this, then this that the

(26:28):
happiness level in the world will increase little by little
and I'd be very happy about that.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Mister Barney. It's been inspirational talking to you. I am
going to get this book immediately. I can recommend it
just based on what we've talked about to anybody, because
we all could use little happiness. I appreciate take, appreciate
you taking the time.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Happy to be here. Thanks Donnie,