December 14, 2025 • 12 mins
Three men simultaneously claim to be pope, tearing European Christianity apart for forty years. The crisis that nearly destroys papal authority forces the church to confront fundamental questions about the nature of religious leadership and institutional legitimacy.
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Unlock an ad-free podcast experience with Caloroga Shark Media! Get all our shows on any player you love, hassle free! For Apple users, hit the banner on your Apple podcasts app. For Spotify or other players, visit caloroga.com/plus. No plug-ins needed!
Subscribe now for exclusive shows like 'Palace Intrigue,' and get bonus content from Deep Crown (our exclusive Palace Insider!) Or get 'Daily Comedy News,' and '5 Good News Stories’ with no commercials! Plans start at $4.99 per month, or save 20% with a yearly plan at $49.99. Join today and help support the show!
We now have Merch! FREE SHIPPING! Check out all the products like T-shirts, mugs, bags, jackets and more with logos and slogans from your favorite shows! Did we mention there’s free shipping? Get 10% off with code NewMerch10 Go to Caloroga.com
Get more info from Caloroga Shark Media and if you have any comments, suggestions, or just want to get in touch our email is info@caloroga.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Caalarogu Shark Media, November eleventh, fourteen seventeen. After thirty nine
years of chaos, scandal, and competing papal claims, the cardinals
finally elected a pope that all of Europe could accept.
(00:24):
Martin the Fifth's election at the Council of Constance ended
the most devastating crisis in papal history. When three different
men had simultaneously claimed to be the true successor of
Saint Peter, the Great Western Schism had torn apart the
unity of European Christianity, Kings had chosen sides between rival popes,
(00:45):
armies had fought battles in the name of competing papal claimants,
and ordinary Catholics had been forced to decide which of
three men actually possessed divine authority to guide their souls.
For nearly four decades, the question who is the real
Pope had no clear answer. The Roman line claimed legitimacy
through unbroken succession from Saint Peter. The Avignon line argued
(01:09):
that papal authority resided wherever the pope actually governed the church.
The Pison line insisted that church councils possessed authority to
depose illegitimate popes and elect legitimate replacements. Each papal claimant
excommunicated his rivals, appointed his own cardinals, and demanded obedience
(01:30):
from the Catholic faithful. The result was institutional chaos that
brought the medieval papacy to the brink of complete collapse
and forced the Church to confront fundamental questions about the
nature of papal authority itself. Today, we examined the crisis
that split the Catholic Church into three competing factions and
(01:50):
nearly destroyed the papal office that had dominated European civilization
for over a thousand years. This is white Smoke Zezew
forty one. The great schism lay in the Avignon papacy,
the seventy year period when the popes had resided in
France rather than Rome under the protection and influence of
(02:12):
the French crown. This Babylonian captivity had damaged papal credibility
throughout Europe, while creating institutional structures that would prove difficult
to abandon when political circumstances changed. The return of the
papal court to Rome in thirteen seventy seven under Gregory
the Eleventh was intended to restore papal independence and credibility,
(02:35):
but it created new problems that its architects had not anticipated.
The French cardinals who dominated the papal court found Rome uncomfortable,
politically dangerous, and financially disadvantageous compared to their previous situation
in Avignon. When Gregory died in March thirteen seventy eight,
the Roman populace demanded the election of an Italian pope
(02:58):
who would maintained the paper court in Rome permanently. The cardinals,
most of whom were French, reluctantly elected Urban six, an
Italian who promised to respect their interests while keeping the
papacy in Rome. Urban's transformation from accommodating candidate into reforming
zealot represented one of the most dramatic personality changes in
(03:20):
papal history. The man who had been elected as a
compromise candidate immediately began attacking the luxury, corruption, and French
orientation of the papal court with a harshness that shocked
even supporters of reform. Urban's denunciations of cardinalacial wealth and
his threats to pack the College of Cardinals with Italian
appointees convinced the French cardinals that they had made a
(03:44):
catastrophic mistake. Within months of his election, they were openly
questioning the validity of his election and seeking ways to
remove him from office. The Cardinal's declaration in August thirteen
seventy eight that Urban's election had been invalid due to
Roman mob pressure created an unprecedented constitutional crisis. If Urban's
(04:07):
election was indeed invalid, then his acts as pope, including
his appointment of new cardinals, were also invalid. But if
his election was valid, then the cardinal's rebellion constituted schism
and heresy. The election of Clement the Seventh by the
rebellious cardinals in September thirteen seventy eight created the institutional
(04:27):
framework for the chism that would devastate European Christianity for
the next four decades. Two men now claimed legitimate papal authority,
each supported by different groups of cardinals and different European powers.
The geographic and political divisions that emerged from the dual
papal election reflected the underlying tensions in European politics, rather
(04:50):
than theological disagreements about Christian doctrine. France Scotland, castile and arrogant,
supported the Avignon pope, while England, Germany, most of Italy,
and Eastern Europe remained loyal to the Roman claimant. These
political alignments meant that the papal schism became entangled with
(05:11):
every major European conflict, as opposing sides could claim religious
justification for their political objectives while portraying their enemies as
supporters of illegitimate papal authority. The One hundred Years War
between England and France was simultaneously a dynastic conflict and
a religious war between competing papal allegiances. The theological implications
(05:35):
of the chism were devastating for traditional theories of papal authority.
If the pope possessed unique divine authority as successor of
Saint Peter, how could two men simultaneously claim this authority.
If papal authority was indivisible, which claimant represented genuine continuity
with apostolic succession. Catholic intellectuals struggled to resolve these questions
(06:00):
through increasingly complex theological arguments that satisfied no one and
convinced few. The most honest observers admitted that human reason
could not determine which papal line possessed legitimate authority, leaving
the choice to political calculation rather than religious conviction. The
emergence of a third papal line following the Council of
(06:21):
Pisa in fourteen oh nine transformed the dual schism into
a triple crisis that made the situation even more absurd
and theologically untenable. The Council's election of Alexander the Fifth
was intended to end the schism by deposing both existing claimants,
but it succeeded only in adding a third competitor to
(06:41):
an already impossible situation. The multiplication of papal claimants demonstrated
the bankruptcy of traditional theories about papal authority, while creating
practical problem that threatened the basic functioning of church government.
(07:04):
With three different popes appointing bishops, granting benefices, and issuing
contradictory decisions, local church administration became chaotic and corrupt. The
financial implications of the triple chism were as serious as
its theological problems. Each papal court maintained expensive administrative structures
while competing for the same limited sources of church revenue.
(07:28):
The cost of supporting three papal bureaucracies drained resources that
should have supported pastoral care and charitable activities. More seriously,
the multiplication of papal authority created opportunities for corruption that
undermined respect for church leadership throughout Europe. Ambitious clerics could
shop among the three papal courts for the most favorable terms,
(07:51):
while secular rulers could manipulate competing papal claims to extract
concessions that would have been impossible under unified papal authority.
The Council of Constance represented the Catholic Church's desperate attempt
to resolve a crisis that threatened its continued existence as
a unified institution. The Council's assertion of authority over papal
(08:14):
claims challenged fundamental assumptions about the nature of church government
while providing the only practical means of ending the schism.
The Council's deposition of all three papal claimants in fourteen
seventeen required unprecedented assertions of conciliar authority that contradicted traditional
teachings about papal supremacy. If church councils possessed authority to
(08:37):
depose legitimate popes, then papal claims to supreme authority were false.
But if councils lacked such authority, then the schism was
insoluble through institutional means. The election of Martin the Fifth
by the Council of Constance finally provided Europe with a
pope that all parties could accept, but only through procedures
(08:58):
that implicitly rejected tritadditional theories of papal authority. The new
pope owed his legitimacy to concilier election rather than cardinalational choice,
establishing precedents that would influence Church government for centuries. Martin's
subsequent efforts to restore traditional papal authority while suppressing concilier theories,
(09:20):
created new tensions that would persist throughout the fifteenth century.
The pope, who had been elected by a council, spent
his reign attempting to prevent future councils from limiting papal
power in ways that his own election had established. The
resolution of the Great Western Chism through concilier action left
(09:40):
unresolved fundamental questions about the nature of authority within the
Catholic Church. The crisis had demonstrated that papal claims to
supreme authority could not withstand institutional breakdown. While the solution
had required assertions of concilier power that contradicted traditional ecclesiology,
the long term effects of the schism on papal authority
(10:03):
were more subtle but more lasting than its immediate resolution suggested.
European rulers had learned that papal authority could be manipulated
through support for competing claimants, while intellectuals had discovered that
church government was more fragile and contingent than traditional theories acknowledged.
The emergence of national churches during the schism period established
(10:25):
patterns of royal control over ecclesiastical affairs that would persist
long after papal unity was restored. Kings who had been
forced to choose between competing papal claims during the crisis
discovered that they could maintain effective control over church affairs
regardless of papal preferences. The financial independence that national churches
(10:47):
developed during the schism reduced papal influence over European ecclesiastical
affairs while providing secular rulers with resources and authority that
enhanced their power at papal expense. The chism that had
weakened papal authority had correspondingly strengthened royal control over church affairs.
(11:08):
The intellectual damage inflicted by the schism on traditional theories
of papal authority provided foundation for later challenges to papal
supremacy during the Protestant Reformation. The theologians who had questioned
papal claims during the Concilier period established precedents and arguments
that Protestant Reformers would employ with devastating effect. The Great
(11:31):
Western Schism revealed the essential fragility of institutions that claimed
divine authority while depending on human support for their effectiveness.
The crisis demonstrated that even the most ancient and revered
religious authorities remained vulnerable to political manipulation and institutional breakdown
when their claims exceed their practical power. The papal office
(11:55):
that emerged from the schism was both stronger and weaker
than its predecessor. Stronger because the resolution had eliminated competing
claims and restored institutional unity, but weaker because the crisis
had revealed the contingent nature of papal authority and the
possibility of successful resistance to papal claims. The lesson of
(12:16):
the Great Western Schism remains relevant for any institution that
claims ultimate authority. Such claims are only as strong as
the consensus that supports them, and that consensus can dissolve
more quickly than institutional theories suggest when practical circumstances change.
White Smoke is a production of Calaoga Shark media, portions
(12:38):
of which were made with the help of a narration,
but still written and produced by real podcasters Mark Francis
and John McDermott.
Caalarogu Shark Media, November eleventh, fourteen seventeen. After thirty nine
years of chaos, scandal, and competing papal claims, the cardinals
finally elected a pope that all of Europe could accept.
(00:24):
Martin the Fifth's election at the Council of Constance ended
the most devastating crisis in papal history. When three different
men had simultaneously claimed to be the true successor of
Saint Peter, the Great Western Schism had torn apart the
unity of European Christianity, Kings had chosen sides between rival popes,
(00:45):
armies had fought battles in the name of competing papal claimants,
and ordinary Catholics had been forced to decide which of
three men actually possessed divine authority to guide their souls.
For nearly four decades, the question who is the real
Pope had no clear answer. The Roman line claimed legitimacy
through unbroken succession from Saint Peter. The Avignon line argued
(01:09):
that papal authority resided wherever the pope actually governed the church.
The Pison line insisted that church councils possessed authority to
depose illegitimate popes and elect legitimate replacements. Each papal claimant
excommunicated his rivals, appointed his own cardinals, and demanded obedience
(01:30):
from the Catholic faithful. The result was institutional chaos that
brought the medieval papacy to the brink of complete collapse
and forced the Church to confront fundamental questions about the
nature of papal authority itself. Today, we examined the crisis
that split the Catholic Church into three competing factions and
(01:50):
nearly destroyed the papal office that had dominated European civilization
for over a thousand years. This is white Smoke Zezew
forty one. The great schism lay in the Avignon papacy,
the seventy year period when the popes had resided in
France rather than Rome under the protection and influence of
(02:12):
the French crown. This Babylonian captivity had damaged papal credibility
throughout Europe, while creating institutional structures that would prove difficult
to abandon when political circumstances changed. The return of the
papal court to Rome in thirteen seventy seven under Gregory
the Eleventh was intended to restore papal independence and credibility,
(02:35):
but it created new problems that its architects had not anticipated.
The French cardinals who dominated the papal court found Rome uncomfortable,
politically dangerous, and financially disadvantageous compared to their previous situation
in Avignon. When Gregory died in March thirteen seventy eight,
the Roman populace demanded the election of an Italian pope
(02:58):
who would maintained the paper court in Rome permanently. The cardinals,
most of whom were French, reluctantly elected Urban six, an
Italian who promised to respect their interests while keeping the
papacy in Rome. Urban's transformation from accommodating candidate into reforming
zealot represented one of the most dramatic personality changes in
(03:20):
papal history. The man who had been elected as a
compromise candidate immediately began attacking the luxury, corruption, and French
orientation of the papal court with a harshness that shocked
even supporters of reform. Urban's denunciations of cardinalacial wealth and
his threats to pack the College of Cardinals with Italian
appointees convinced the French cardinals that they had made a
(03:44):
catastrophic mistake. Within months of his election, they were openly
questioning the validity of his election and seeking ways to
remove him from office. The Cardinal's declaration in August thirteen
seventy eight that Urban's election had been invalid due to
Roman mob pressure created an unprecedented constitutional crisis. If Urban's
(04:07):
election was indeed invalid, then his acts as pope, including
his appointment of new cardinals, were also invalid. But if
his election was valid, then the cardinal's rebellion constituted schism
and heresy. The election of Clement the Seventh by the
rebellious cardinals in September thirteen seventy eight created the institutional
(04:27):
framework for the chism that would devastate European Christianity for
the next four decades. Two men now claimed legitimate papal authority,
each supported by different groups of cardinals and different European powers.
The geographic and political divisions that emerged from the dual
papal election reflected the underlying tensions in European politics, rather
(04:50):
than theological disagreements about Christian doctrine. France Scotland, castile and arrogant,
supported the Avignon pope, while England, Germany, most of Italy,
and Eastern Europe remained loyal to the Roman claimant. These
political alignments meant that the papal schism became entangled with
(05:11):
every major European conflict, as opposing sides could claim religious
justification for their political objectives while portraying their enemies as
supporters of illegitimate papal authority. The One hundred Years War
between England and France was simultaneously a dynastic conflict and
a religious war between competing papal allegiances. The theological implications
(05:35):
of the chism were devastating for traditional theories of papal authority.
If the pope possessed unique divine authority as successor of
Saint Peter, how could two men simultaneously claim this authority.
If papal authority was indivisible, which claimant represented genuine continuity
with apostolic succession. Catholic intellectuals struggled to resolve these questions
(06:00):
through increasingly complex theological arguments that satisfied no one and
convinced few. The most honest observers admitted that human reason
could not determine which papal line possessed legitimate authority, leaving
the choice to political calculation rather than religious conviction. The
emergence of a third papal line following the Council of
(06:21):
Pisa in fourteen oh nine transformed the dual schism into
a triple crisis that made the situation even more absurd
and theologically untenable. The Council's election of Alexander the Fifth
was intended to end the schism by deposing both existing claimants,
but it succeeded only in adding a third competitor to
(06:41):
an already impossible situation. The multiplication of papal claimants demonstrated
the bankruptcy of traditional theories about papal authority, while creating
practical problem that threatened the basic functioning of church government.
(07:04):
With three different popes appointing bishops, granting benefices, and issuing
contradictory decisions, local church administration became chaotic and corrupt. The
financial implications of the triple chism were as serious as
its theological problems. Each papal court maintained expensive administrative structures
while competing for the same limited sources of church revenue.
(07:28):
The cost of supporting three papal bureaucracies drained resources that
should have supported pastoral care and charitable activities. More seriously,
the multiplication of papal authority created opportunities for corruption that
undermined respect for church leadership throughout Europe. Ambitious clerics could
shop among the three papal courts for the most favorable terms,
(07:51):
while secular rulers could manipulate competing papal claims to extract
concessions that would have been impossible under unified papal authority.
The Council of Constance represented the Catholic Church's desperate attempt
to resolve a crisis that threatened its continued existence as
a unified institution. The Council's assertion of authority over papal
(08:14):
claims challenged fundamental assumptions about the nature of church government
while providing the only practical means of ending the schism.
The Council's deposition of all three papal claimants in fourteen
seventeen required unprecedented assertions of conciliar authority that contradicted traditional
teachings about papal supremacy. If church councils possessed authority to
(08:37):
depose legitimate popes, then papal claims to supreme authority were false.
But if councils lacked such authority, then the schism was
insoluble through institutional means. The election of Martin the Fifth
by the Council of Constance finally provided Europe with a
pope that all parties could accept, but only through procedures
(08:58):
that implicitly rejected tritadditional theories of papal authority. The new
pope owed his legitimacy to concilier election rather than cardinalational choice,
establishing precedents that would influence Church government for centuries. Martin's
subsequent efforts to restore traditional papal authority while suppressing concilier theories,
(09:20):
created new tensions that would persist throughout the fifteenth century.
The pope, who had been elected by a council, spent
his reign attempting to prevent future councils from limiting papal
power in ways that his own election had established. The
resolution of the Great Western Chism through concilier action left
(09:40):
unresolved fundamental questions about the nature of authority within the
Catholic Church. The crisis had demonstrated that papal claims to
supreme authority could not withstand institutional breakdown. While the solution
had required assertions of concilier power that contradicted traditional ecclesiology,
the long term effects of the schism on papal authority
(10:03):
were more subtle but more lasting than its immediate resolution suggested.
European rulers had learned that papal authority could be manipulated
through support for competing claimants, while intellectuals had discovered that
church government was more fragile and contingent than traditional theories acknowledged.
The emergence of national churches during the schism period established
(10:25):
patterns of royal control over ecclesiastical affairs that would persist
long after papal unity was restored. Kings who had been
forced to choose between competing papal claims during the crisis
discovered that they could maintain effective control over church affairs
regardless of papal preferences. The financial independence that national churches
(10:47):
developed during the schism reduced papal influence over European ecclesiastical
affairs while providing secular rulers with resources and authority that
enhanced their power at papal expense. The chism that had
weakened papal authority had correspondingly strengthened royal control over church affairs.
(11:08):
The intellectual damage inflicted by the schism on traditional theories
of papal authority provided foundation for later challenges to papal
supremacy during the Protestant Reformation. The theologians who had questioned
papal claims during the Concilier period established precedents and arguments
that Protestant Reformers would employ with devastating effect. The Great
(11:31):
Western Schism revealed the essential fragility of institutions that claimed
divine authority while depending on human support for their effectiveness.
The crisis demonstrated that even the most ancient and revered
religious authorities remained vulnerable to political manipulation and institutional breakdown
when their claims exceed their practical power. The papal office
(11:55):
that emerged from the schism was both stronger and weaker
than its predecessor. Stronger because the resolution had eliminated competing
claims and restored institutional unity, but weaker because the crisis
had revealed the contingent nature of papal authority and the
possibility of successful resistance to papal claims. The lesson of
(12:16):
the Great Western Schism remains relevant for any institution that
claims ultimate authority. Such claims are only as strong as
the consensus that supports them, and that consensus can dissolve
more quickly than institutional theories suggest when practical circumstances change.
White Smoke is a production of Calaoga Shark media, portions
(12:38):
of which were made with the help of a narration,
but still written and produced by real podcasters Mark Francis
and John McDermott.
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