Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:22):
Who'd added to everybody, God bless glad you're here. If
you hear for a one in five Saints team. Let
me tell you one thing, you real one, you actually care,
you true fan of this team. Don't let anybody ever
call you a bandwagon.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome in.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
We're gonna talk about the Patriots taking down the New
Orleans Saints twenty five to nineteen.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Me and Ellis talked a little.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Bit before today's show, just some of our thoughts in
they aligned. So I'm very curious to see what y'all
think as we talk about this game. But more importantly,
we're were changed up. Come out with a hot topic
right off the gate, right out the bat.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Chris olave me trade.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
I thought, playing like you know that game where you
just kind of relate the word Chris trade. Them just
came up. I don't listen. Big time players make big
time plays. I agree, and alive had an opportunity for
(01:21):
several big time plays. How much have I been saying it?
All I've heard of week the week is O the
ball location. I said, if the ball get to the
court to the receiver, receiver, we got to make the catch.
No greater example than that. Then today with a lot
of catches between Olive and Juwan, somebody got to help
(01:44):
rather we get it.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
The big one with me was seeing and I brought
up you and I'm gonna let you say what your
first thought was. But seeing Ki Sham Bouti opposite side
of the field, wonder one made me convinced. And I
and I made a show months ago, said hey, it
wasn't time to tray lave because you wanted to give
Rattler every opportunity. But you're approaching the deadline. It's clear
(02:06):
you need to build for the future. And Bouti is small,
but he plays like he's six two sixty three, so
you'll think he's six two sixty three. He's five eleven
one ninety five, but you couldn't tell him playing against
the Saints defense, that's how big he is. But Elive
doesn't play with that same bigger than he is. And
if you're going to be a true number one, you
(02:28):
gotta be that guy. And I'm not even saying the
case Shun's going to be that guy. I mean, he's
still young in his career, but you saw him do
things that Alive is.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Not doing, and you gotta find that guy. So if
you can get Lave, get it.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Well, here's the name. You saw him doing things that
Olive showed his first two years he couldn't do, and
that's why he was left asking for more plays down
the line of screens are down deep during training camp.
He was lobbying for that because the team wasn't using that,
because he wasn't winning enough down the field. And yeah,
(03:07):
to your point, we discussed that Bouta ended up or well,
I want to pronounce it boot Booty ended up with
some players where I legitimately when you brought him up
thought he was six to two. Yeah, Like I was like,
oh no, I was like, yeah, he about I said, no,
he's like six two tens Like naw, he's five eleven.
And I go to look it up and yeah, he's
(03:29):
five eleven. That's that's what Ratler. If you're going to
surround Ratler with smaller receivers, they better have that skill set.
Otherwise the Saints should trade Alive and run with Vele
and I do run with that.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
We're not even saying that the Lave is bad. We're
saying he's a valuable thing that can be traded for
future assets. He's just not the guy that they need,
especially for young quarterback in Rattler here or or watch.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
This something I've and speak, I'm gonna give you the
flip side of it, or because Rattler needs a specific
skill set. We saw Shuck with a different skill set.
(04:21):
We saw Shuck throwing receivers open. We saw Shuck with
better ball location. If that's the offense you're going to run,
if that's the thing the play calls you want to do.
If you're not going to adapt, let's Shuck start getting
some snaps. Eventually, Caushuck fits the system more, he fits
(04:48):
the decision making more. Listen as much as I we're
going to point out how Rattler needs better weapons around him,
like most younger quarterbacks do. We also saw Ratler make
some questionable decisions that could have turned into worse situations,
and he got bailed out because defensive backs are defensive
(05:11):
backs for a reason. There were times throughout training camp,
times throughout preseason where Kellen Moore lauded Shuck's decision making,
saying more than once it was a high football IQ play.
The decision was Shuck took off running where he's like.
Look nine times out of ten, the quarterback throws the pass. There,
(05:35):
Shuck made a smart decision where he runs with the
ball one of the few times where they would typically
run with the ball, and it turns into a touchdown.
Though I hate to say that Shuck is Kellen's guy,
the reality of it is is he is Kellen's guy.
I exactly if Kellen isn't going to played to ratless strengths.
(06:01):
Because put it like this, I would keep Alive with
Chuck throwing him the ball. That would be the trick
because you want to see more run after catch and.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Ball and see.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Honestly, I would still trade Lave. My logic being is
because the Lave is not that guy. You've got a
lave already, his name is rashi Ya heat because you
want a lave to be above what you did.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And seen Rashid be that consistent with well, you know what, and.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
That's I mean, we're talking about Chris Lave, who's been
King of the drop this year.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Because yeah, only because's pedigreeks Rasi with his hands. Rashid
was undrafted. Therefore he's climbed up to the ranks of
where Olive is as undrafted due to his pedigree, you
(07:00):
would expect more from Olive. For me, it's so I
agree with the trade.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Like for me, it's I trade a Lave because I
honestly don't care who you have a quarterback. There are
people who full of support Rattler. I think that's fine.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
There are a lot of people who believe that Chuck
is secretly Moore's guy, not even secretly, that that's just
going to be how it is, whatever. But what I
do believe they need is a red zone target and
a traditional X split in is what they need. A
Lave can't play to that level because he's not playing
above his size. And even if Moore wants to run
a faster offense he can, he still needs the big
(07:35):
body no matter what whoever his quarterback is.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Because they want it in Juwan.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Juwan's not consistent, Juwan's Timu Jared Cook right now. They
want it in a love They don't got it, I think,
no matter what, they have to find that better receiver.
So with that said, a Lave is a target that
is good. He could be a flanker on almost any
NFL team right now and be a good player. I
mean easily as a flanker making eight hundred to one
thousand yard seasons on a good team.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Get value for it. Find you your guy.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Go and get AJ Brown. There you go, there you go.
I said it, Go get a J. Brown. He's unhappy.
Saints need that mode of receiver. I would I would
go with the youth run though, if it was me.
I That's why I'm like, just go ahead and startle,
start getting tipped in some snaps up the rotation. You're young,
(08:27):
you see where you are. But it's it's a middle line.
There's some things that I think Keller Moore needs in
this offense, and it's like.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Hey, oh, to be clear, I'm definitely not absolving him
if I think it's time management. I mean a lot
of things.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
The Patriots this game did way better. Their time management flawless,
their challenges flawless.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Coach, Yeah, very very much.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Oh so so we can lean into finally what I've
been saying for several weeks. Yeah, we've been getting our coach.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah he's a first year age seed. Maybe he finds it,
maybe he doesn't, but definitely got our coach. So I
don't want anybody to take this episode as what I'm
saying is like, oh, this is all on a Lavee. No,
but this offense is not scoring twenty plus points and
what did I say a couple of weeks ago. Until
they start consistently doing that, doesn't matter who the quarterback is,
play call or whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
The whole unit is failing. And we can talk about defense,
and I know people want to call out the defense
having issues.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
They're definitely big blown plays in this game. Defense still
held them to twenty five points. And in a modern NFL,
that's a solid defense. I'm not saying it's good. That's solid.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Your offense scoring less than twenty points, it means you're
going to be at the bottom of the league.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Coming into this game. There were twenty ninth in the
NFL in the red zone.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
We can talk about the defense having problems, it's there,
but it's offense with an offensive mined coach, with multiple
offensive mined former head coaches who have a team who
can't score in the red zone. Your only scorer came
from a Taysom Hill run, which feels like the only
time you actually saw them in the game.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I was about to say what it was more of Taysum.
This is the part where I say that instead of
killing I've been calling them cute all season. Just play
to your strengths. You got taste him back, You got
Kendre back there. You want to be this team where
you said you want these bigger guards inside. I understand
(10:13):
you probably need better guard play to truly unlocked Camaro
on the inside game. But the way that you have
a top isn't Kendre like the best back at at
yards after contacting. Okay, so if you don't have good
guard player, you need a running a runner who can
make yards after the initial contact. Kendre is better than
(10:34):
Alvin right now at that facts. So you need to
be leaning into Kendre. You need to be running the
ball more. You need to be leaning in the taste him.
You need to run the ball. You have Fuaga, he's
a run blocker. You have McCay he's a run blocker.
You have Penny, he's a run blocker. Utilize it fast
(10:57):
the ball. Listen. Ratless game is faullless. He's getting the
ball out under two point two seconds. His quick game
is flawless. Flawless. Stop making him the engine of the
offense and let the running game be the engine and
let Ratler just convert some passes here and up stop
asking him to throw the ball up and down the field,
(11:18):
up and down the field for five yards per stop.
That's on your head coach, that's on your offensive play callers.
Like I've been saying all season, everybody think I just
have these these weird takes. No, it's pretty obvious.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
My only hope is that you'll see him improve with
Tom like you would a player.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
But you have the You have enough tape on.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
More as a play caller, just like you have enough
tape on Rattler to make calls. And More is certainly
failing the the the minimum of what you would want for,
not only in OC but from an offensive minor head coach.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
And I really can't leave the thing.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
The third down conversion rate being low, the red zone
b NFL, your time manager being a problem, the guy
ending games in halves.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
With all of his timeouts.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You know didn't do it at the end of this game,
but you know for another one, your offense has struggled
to score touchdowns today. Why are you punting with four
minutes left because if they get a field goal, it's over.
Where's the where's the aggressiveness to go forward in that situation?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
And I definitely agree.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
There's been play calling problems, but just more as an
experience so far.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
About the corner when the cornerback for the Patriots went out,
that's a play with Sean Payton goes right after the
backup immediately put your best play out there. Yeah, that
play we put Cooks out there and had Ratler turned
to the other side of the field didn't even acknowledge
that they had put in a backup cornerback. That's something
in experienced coach, that's that's a play call. Whait, Immediately,
(12:49):
we're gonna attack you. You're just coming in a game.
We're gonna put a lot, We're gonna put out whoever
our best player is right there on you, and we're
gonna attack those Those are the coaching decisions that listen.
You hope he can improve on in due time. You
hope that that's something he improves on, because what I've
(13:10):
been saying it, I'm five games in and the mistakes
are getting worse than not getting better from him.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, and I want to point out that he's also
got a lot of good gameplay from We keep talking
about the offensive line. According to Sis, again, different analytics
who have different numbers always compare same the same, but
on this show, we typically always give you either SIS
or NFL. Next Gyen Spencer Rattler coming into this game
been pressured.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Are only fourteen percent of his snaps?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Right, We've looked at guys like Kendre Miller who are
averaging at the top of the league.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
He's top ten in yards after contact.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So it's not like he's got a I've seen too
many people say this team is lacking talent, and I'm
not saying they have elite Pro Bowlers, Hall of famers,
but the numbers aren't backing up what the results are.
Because if your quarterbacks only being pressured fourteen percent, he mind,
there's some quarterbacks being pressured over of their snaps consistently.
If you've got a running back who is consistently in
(14:04):
the top of yards after contact and yet you're averaging
only eight carries with that running back.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Those are coaching problems. Those aren't talent problems with all.
And I do believe we can get better.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
We just talked about wanting to trade larvae, but there
are a lot of things that just aren't adding up
when you talk about what could be better on this team.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
That isn't the math. Ain't math.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
He's not playing into the strengths of his team. I'm
telling you Kellen Moore. Kellen Moore gives me Lebron and
not Jordan. Jordan had a killer instinct. There's a reason
I'm a Jordan fan over. I won't discuss who is
better depending on your generation. What I will say is
that Jordan like Kobe or Kobe like Jordan, those players
(14:50):
have a killer instinct where they will attack when they
smell weakness. There are too many opportunities for killing Moore
to smell weakness on an opposed defense, and he doesn't
call the play. He'd rather just dish the ball off.
I hate it, and it's it's more than just offensive,
(15:13):
it's it's coaching in general. There's moments where you say, listen,
we're going for all four downs. We're gonna go for
it on fourth down on this series, based on the
situation in the game. We need it right here, win
this moment. Let's take this first play and let's throw
the ball deep. It's a free play. Let's let's let's
attack him deep because we're gonna go for a second, third,
(15:34):
and fourth anyway, which.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
He did a freak script and then never came back
to it because that was the big play to all
love it, and then he never returned to it.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
So you and that's something he's got to lean into
consistently because obviously when he does, it works. So at
some point he's gotta I hope there's an analyst and
a data analyst that's there that can feed him this
data so that he can adjust, because the more aggressive
he gets, the better the team performs. Once you can
(16:04):
evat once he starts calling better play calls, you can
get a better evaluation of the offense and the players
in it. Then you can start determining who you can
because I mean, obviously, maybe Juwan is gonna be there,
looks like another year, But Juwan shouldn't be leading the
team in in targets or not necessarily leading the team,
(16:24):
but he shouldn't be one of the highest targeted tight
ends in the league. I feel like that's out of
necessity because the return on investment isn't there. You saw
that twenty percent drop in Crypto, Yeah, I saw twenty
percent drop rate in Juwan Johnson too.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
One.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I'm gonna give one more because I don't like to
be completely negative. Everything you're saying is valid. He did
finally line Kamara out wide and in the slot and
use him in that way today.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Finally, it's a hack.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Listen, if you look at Kamara, let me see, let
me pull this up. You go ahead and carry this
for a second. I'm I'm gonna look up something.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, for Chad.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
All year we've been talking about how we've known that
Kamara has been one of the best dual threat running
backs four years. Well up to this point, they've almost
not use him at all in the slaughter, even lining him.
U about why is the flanker to try to create mismatches?
Today they did that. He went five receptions, five targets,
forty five yards with a twenty two yarder as the
long including multiple intentional throws with him lining up as
(17:24):
wide receiver. And yet, why is it taking six weeks
for your star player? And look, when we say what
we want about a love of people whatever, Alba Kamara
is the face of this team still, yes, thirty years old,
et cetera.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Still the face.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Six weeks to get to that point now, I'm glad
it's there, But why six weeks?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
What you got for me?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Elis Kamara. Listen, Kamara is a kum boulding with maybe
questionable a little bit more questionable hand, but he's a
legitimate weapon in the slat. I mean, that's it was something.
So what I'm looking for is I'm pulling up pff,
I'm having a log in here. Samara's usage as a
slot receiver his rookie year was pretty high up there,
(18:05):
and then it slowly, it slowly trickled down. But then
you saw where when we got under Pete, it continued
to go, but it dropped at a significant rate under
Pete called Michael's play calling. It is the it's the
cheat code that's waiting to be used that nobody's used
it since his rookie year because he was expected to
(18:27):
be the main guy the following year. Right, you see
what Alvin Kamara does, so naturally his second year, you're
going to expect him to carry a little bit more
of the load. So you saw less of mark Ingram
more of Alvin Kamara. Right, Alvin's at the stage in
his career where he should be taking Marshall fulk like
carries most of his snaps, should be a receiver. You
(18:49):
got a young bull and Kendred. The only thing holding
Kendred back is killing Moore, not giving the ball to
Kendre Moore.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, I mean, Kendra is a ball out there. Alvin
Kamara doesn't because I've seen people say trade Kamara. Kamara
one doesn't want to. But Kamera can still have two
to three productive years on this team just not being
used as a bell cow. And I'm not even saying
that he doesn't need to get ten carries.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
But Ken J.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Miller can be the guy.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
You could have split back situations where we have both
Miller and Kamara on the field and force things to
be used in terms of Kamara's slot ability to your advantage,
which will do nothing, if nothing else, open up the
box more for Miller because if you put Ak out
on the slot, you have to respect him, whether you
do that with your best linebacker or your nickel corner,
(19:31):
which frees up a spot for Miller. I don't understand
why things like split back aren't used more because you've
seen Ak use that way with multiple offensive coordinators effectively.
And yet, and I love your point because at this
point in his career, it's time for him to switch
back to what he was as a rookie when he
wasn't the number one guy.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Ingram was the main They knew.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
AK was going to grow into it, but it left
room for AK to be the versatile knife. He's back
to that point. He's not going to carry the team
on his back anymore, or you could ask him to
if you really want to, you know, diminish the carriages
of his career.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
But you can have a lot of success with Aka.
There's no reason that he should not be out on
the slot.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
More So, check this out. Here's what I and this
is something that Kellen can unlock. I hope someone has analytics.
Twenty two point seven percentage of his snaps in his
rookie year at what came from the slot the second year, seventeen,
third year eleven, fourth, twelve, fifth, thirteen, sixth four point two, seventh,
(20:35):
five point two. He went back up to sixteen percent
last year and also conversely was one of famaris bounce
back year last year. Right. Now, here's the further thing.
Out wide, He was used nineteen percent of the time
out wide as a rookie sixteen percent thirteen ten, fourteen, six,
(20:57):
five four five. There is something Reggie Bush said a
few years back he said, Hey, I could extended my
career if I the play wide receiver. If the Saints
use Kamara more formational wise as a receiver in certain
plays but on a higher footage and keep Miller on
(21:19):
the field as a runner, they could be adding a
They could be adding the run after catch specialists that
the offense is missing just by moving Kamara into that role.
Because he wants to run screens, he wants to do
all these things. Well, then just make Alvin Kamara that guy,
but just use him the way he needs to be used,
which is as a receiver more just just.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
George for this year in the slot leading of this game.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
So first individual, first five games so far for Kamara
used in the slot and out watch. I'm sure it's
single digits. But and also shouts to Shelton Bill, say
you for supporting the shown says. They say that they
we should trade a lave for aj Brown. Personally, just me,
I'd rather trade him for draft capital and picks. But
I also understand when that's coming from reason. Yeah, what
(22:12):
would you.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Got seven point seven in the slot this year?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Five point one out wide? So are we seeing him? So?
Currently he's approaching Pete Carmichael levels of using Kamara and
the slot, and those were also Kamara's least productive years.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
That's the grossest sight I've ever heard, compared more to
Pete Carmichael, and that.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Is But that's some sortunate because what I've been saying,
the reason I would trade Kamara because is obviously you're
not gonna use him, right, That's what I keep saying.
It's obvious that Kellen Moore is going to be who
he wants to be. The game where we looked competent
as an offense, he said, oh, we were in the
gun too much. I wanted to get out of gun.
I wanted to be more on the center. We went
(22:51):
right back into the gun the last two weeks, right
back into it. So he's got this identity that he
wants to do. This is like, cool, if you're gonna
be that way, go get the players that let you
do that. But if you're not, then work with the
players better that you do have.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Really making me miss Clint Kubiak man, Clint got done
so dirty with everything that happened last year. And look
what Seattle's doing. And I'm not saying Clint Kubiak was
a perfect o. See but Seattle's four and two, that
office is click with Sam Darnold, and we've got Kella
Moore using Ak seven percent of the time of the slot.
Where last year you saw Ak hit he was seven
(23:29):
yards away from a fifteen hundred scrimmage yard season. I
mean those are elite running back numbers, and this year
he's on pace to barely hit a thousand. That's I
don't think that Ak has fallen off like that.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Like I'm not saying he is what he was in
twenty twenty one, but he's not falling off. He's not
out there hobbling.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Go back and look at those episodes. Go back and
look at our first episode from the first two games,
and I was screaming, why the hell's so we throwing
Alvin Kamara the ball on a swing ride to let
them line up and get hit and forced to fumble
when you can just turn around and handle the ball
on the outside of the inside zone scheme and watch
him go for five or six years. At least he
gets to protect himself. Kellen Moore has been using all
(24:12):
of the players very wrong, That's why.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And like if the Saints had a better record, you know,
because Shelton's saying, trade for a J.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Brown.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I'd be more on if the Saints weren't one and
five because at this point, don't trade for an elite
or even a high end.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah player, at this point, yeah, I would go.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
But I still get what they're saying because look at
those type of plays. A swing play is not too
different from a wide receiver screen in a lot of
ways because you're just trying to clear out for the swing.
But with the receiver you typically have a quicker and
better option in terms of bigger option for those quick yards.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
An AJ Brown type could do it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
But listen, you need, like you said, you need the
people for what more wants to run?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I would rather him run what you have available right now.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
If you're gonna do that, just line Comera up at
receiving anyway, at least again, instead of sending him on
a flare route where he's the player that's watching him
in coverage is looking to nail him. So you send
him out on this flare route. Spencer's late getting them
the ball, he catches it, and the first thing they
do is line him up popping. Well, you might as
(25:17):
well just split him out there wide receiver and just
throw him a quick screen from the start and at
least everybody knows he's getting the ball and it's going
Now if that's what you want to do, it's just
use him better. Stop stop getting cute with how you're
going to use him, and just use him for what
you ask him to do. You don't, you don't have
a successful like what how many yards per care? We
(25:39):
had eight nine yards carry that game. Probably a little less.
I might be exaggerating it, but whatever, But you have
a game where you do that and you it's it's
after you switch the more outside zone running and then
you come right back around the following week and start
running and go back to gap scheme, and then and
then you wonder why you don't have a run game
to run play action off of it. During the broadcast,
(26:00):
as the announcers brought up that, hey, play action has
been looking good. He's only called five play action passes
this game. Heard it it works, So why not do it?
You know? Why not do it? Because Kellor Moore doesn't
want to call play action. He wants to he wants
to run from the gun.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Another stat just because I would have really really emphasized
this Kamara thing. I went and looked up on the
NFL next year, he's averaging four point eight yards of
separation win actually used in the passing.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Game, which would be better than anybody else on the team.
By the way, nobody else has averaged it anywhere close
to five yard separation in the passing game except Kellen.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
If you watch this, just trust some more plays off
for Kamara in the as a receiver in the slot.
Put Kendre on the field. More run the ball, more
run play action. You'll win more. You'll score over twenty points. Yeah,
I guaranteed you will score over twenty points if you
just do that, and and and if gonna trade Olive,
(27:02):
I'm cool with the picks. Trade them for cornerback because
you need one. You need one. You need a cornerback.
Secondary is too young not to have an established cornerback
out there. That's actually good. I understand you went with Ike. Uh,
you went with Ike Turner, Timmy Turner, whatever. Get them.
(27:24):
I couldn't get them. You went with get them, but
get them with you know, like a C plus C minus.
You need at least you need You need a competent,
veteran corner there that can still give you some high
level play because that defense requires intelligence from the secondary.
Saint I ain't playing enough football yet, He's still gonna
(27:46):
get confused. Y's been. But then you got you got
kool Aid out there in his second year making mistakes. Cool,
I get it. He's still young. Now you got your
other fourth round pick out there make a mistake. I
get it, he's still young. You got Taylor still out
there making coverage mistakes, but we want to pay him
along with his twenty missed tackles a year. Why are
(28:07):
we discussing extending Taylor? I don't know. Because Brandon Stately
is saying he's got all the stuff. I'm not for it.
I'm not with it. No disrespect to him, but I
think you can get a little bit more from that
position with better tackling if that's what you're gonna do
for a little bit less money. Regardless of that, you've
your secondary is young and needs some veteran players there.
Eric Greed ain't doing enough.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
All of that said, and this is I think the
worst part. The defense is still better than the offense.
I don't think a lot of people want to hear that,
but the defense is still better.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Defense I can give him that credit. I can give
him that credit.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Defense, I don't give him that credit. Including Drake May
who scrambled nine times. Defense held him rushing two point
four yards per attempt. That's it right now. They give
up big plays.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yes, Sanker is not even had six games as a starter.
He bat on some Yankee concepts. He gave him some
big plays. Young guys are gonna have that problem. Yeah,
but this team had what seven tackles for loss? Put
consistent pressure on a quarterback who is really jumping up
in terms of his improvement. Hopefully see the same thing
with Rattler as he gets more snaps.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Defense is playing existence and people can say what they
want about the defense, but the defense is not out
here giving up forty point games. The offense is the
ones who can't even score twenty.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
And again we're going just based on consistency you've had
Ratler and not blaming Ratler, just saying Ratler has scored
with his offense more than twenty points.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
What twice in twelve games? Now, I think a lot
of that is on Kellamore right now. But when you
say whatever you want about the defense, doesn't really matter
if your team is scoring nineteen seventy two levels of
offensive points. You're just not gonna win football games.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Good Kamario, what I receive agreed. Involve Shaheed in the
offense more. Listen. If you're gonna force the ball to anybody,
should be forcing them to shhed Dug. He's your biggest
should he along with Ratler with his legs, along with Kamara,
along with Kendre. Those are your offensive playmakers on the team.
(30:08):
Those are your consistent offensive play makers on the team.
I would say Juwan is sitting right on the outside
of that because of his consistency and his drops. But
I would say your most explosive plays, you guys that
have come with the biggest plays have been him, Kamara,
Kendre and uh that's it and yeah kamaray, him, Kendra
(30:33):
and whoever else. Anyway, but you're forcing the ball to
elive with Listen. I get it, you want to do
that with a lot, but you're just running the scheme
a wrong way with the players that you have. That's
really it. If you would just focus on what he
has and just build around that and play call around
that starts running the ball, the Saints offense would score
(30:55):
more put it like this, Ratler would probably look just
as good with a healthy team in Seattle under that
offensive scheme, because that's the way you have to play
to support Ratler the best.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I'd argue he'd probably a little bit better.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I mean, I'm I'm under selling it here because I'm like, hey,
I mean, he could it, but he's again, if Kellen
Moore wants to do what Kelling Moore does, then you
might as well go with Shuck. If shuck it. If
if Ratley is getting pressured the least amount that he's
getting pressured, and you're worried about Shuck getting killed, but
it's clear that the offensive nine is playing better than
(31:32):
it's getting credit for, you might as well start Shuck.
At least Shuck plays the way you want to play.
It's like, look, if you go if you're gonna do this,
if you're gonna be you know, hard headed, then just
do it with the guys that do it well, then.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Very curiously where they're gonna have a couple questions and
comments from the chat here, Drede says Shun probably should
not have been drafted that high. Ratler not the problem,
could have had a second round picker, and I would
say this Dre we don't know if he's going to
be a successful failure, but I will say until you
have a franchise quarterback, you address.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It and keep draft every time.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Look Ler, Yeah, if Radler becomes a franchise quarterback, Shuck
wasn't a waste because Shuck was part of the process
to find the franchise. If Rattler isn't and Shuck is,
you find. If Shuck's not, it's fine until you have
that guy. Because at any given time there are maybe
five to ten franchise level quarterbacks in the NFL. You
go every time, and that doesn't mean a second rounder
(32:29):
can't find it. Right every you attempt until you find it.
New England's trying to do the same thing you had.
Jacoby Bris said to come back to New England starting
while they're working on Drake May.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
They got Drake maybe and the guy this year.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
You literally had people calling him franchise looking throws and
stuff in this game in the broadcast.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Right, you go until you find it. Now, I'm not
saying Shuck is going to be that guy, but I
also don't have an issue with the pick. Like you
got to make the attempt.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
It's it's whatever logic you go into. Listen, it's simple.
What you're saying makes sense. If you were convinced that
you were ready to roll with Ratler, if you had
convinced yourself as an organization that hey, we're just gonna
roll with Ratler this year. In other words, the Saints
would have had decided that they weren't going to be
able to win a division and be a winning team,
(33:17):
and so you say, hey, we're just gonna roll with
second year Ratler. That option was there. It's clear that
they felt that they could win in the division. So
at that point you don't know what Ratler is, so
you draft the quarterback there for competition. That way, now
you have not only one player you think potentially could
be that guy, you know, I have two. Conversely with Schuck,
(33:40):
as we've seen with different quarterbacks, Mahomes didn't start his
rookie year, Jordan Love didn't start his rookie year. Who
else didn't start. If you give them an opportunity to
develop over time, it helps them. Just throwing them into.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
The fire if.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
There's an elite, elite talent. But you have to keep
in mind the teams that are doing this are picking
that high because they're bad teams, so bad teams are
going to continue to do bad things. Yep, that's how
you get Sam Donald looking the way Sam Donald does.
But he couldn't look like that in New York because
they needed him to play earlier then he was capable
(34:22):
of playing, and then you end up giving up on
him too fast, and now you have to watch that
first round pick play well somewhere else. Good teams draft
quarterbacks and allow them to develop behind the scenes for
as long as they can. So when you don't have
a quarterback, yes, you say, hey, I'm going to try
(34:45):
to build on this and I'm gonna draft somebody. But
that's if you felt that you were ready to go
with Ratler full time, then yes, you say, hey, let
me take the best player here, the best tight end.
But considering you only going into the team into the
year with two quarterbacks because at this point Carr has retired,
were those those only two quarterbacks were the two guys
(35:06):
that you had last year where Ratler already beat him out.
So if you want to have competition there, you have
to add to the rotation. And so Shuck was sitting there.
You sit there and wait and I've always said I
don't think the Saints were enamored with Shuck because they
sat there and let him come to them. If they
(35:27):
were enamored with him, they would have moved up to
go and get him. They didn't, So in other words,
they were okay. If somebody would have picked Shuck ahead
of them, they would have been completely okay with that,
but nobody did. He was there, so they took him.
There Was it worth the pick? Arguably you can say
you could have had a better player there, and yet
if he hits a year two years down the line,
(35:50):
then it definitely was worth it because it's the most
important position in football.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, I mean, and that's what it comes down to.
You're focusing on that, and we've gone through this. There's
multiple reports, and somebody's gonna take him. If New Orleans
didn't take him at forty, that's part of why he goes. Look,
and whether you like him or don't, completely fine. I
get the logic.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
It's always easy to, you know, go back in history
and say, well, this should have got you know, Johnson cornerback. Yeah,
he's great. He also could have been Stanley Jean Baptiste.
There's no guarantees in the draft, you address what you
need to address, you go from there. This scouting room
has been much better than they've been bad compared to
the rest of the NFL.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Right, we'll we'll see where it goes.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Man, I'm still a one in five team, but there's
definitely some young piece of I'm we're gonna grab a
couple more. They want to wrap it up, all right,
appreciate y'all being here means a loss, and like I
said at the beginning of the show, the fact that
y'all come here for the team being one and five
shows that you really care about the team.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
You'd be frustrated. I'm not saying your frustrations aren't valid,
but who that to you?
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Y'all come in for these for these insights. Listen, if
you are listening to this and listening with me and
rev talking about there would be some of the things
that we're talking about that you may be able to
go on another podcast and here I can promise you that.
But there are some things that Rever and I are
saying right now that we're giving you that nobody else
is talking about.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I guarantee you there are little insights that only you
can find here on this podcast with these two people.
Guarantee you I sold the hell out of that real quick.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I want to grab one from all stacks.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
He says, you pick a guy that spent a decade
in college in the second round that needs time to develop. Yes,
because look, let me give you the logic as to
want and I'm saying, okay, you're more to welcome disagree
with me. In terms of position. That is the average
retirement age. Did you know an NFL quarterback average?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
What he's baiting you that to him? I think it's
because the logic is very, very It's fine, we've already explained.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
The rest of the class.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Though.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Average quarterback I'M retires in the NFL thirty five to
thirty eight. So even if your argument's true and it
takes him till he's thirty, that means you've got five
to eight years. Again, if we're in the magical scenario,
we're show kids five to eight years of elite quarterback play.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
That's two contracts. That's fine. It's not like he's a
corner that.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
You worry about him going from a four to three
to a four to six running speed by the time
he's twenty nine years old. It's fine. It's a quarterback,
not a skill position player. Now, if it fails, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
But his age certainly didn't stop plenty of teams from
evaluating him very highly. That's not a nay. If you
can throw on them. Now, if you want to throw
negatives on Shock, we can bring out SKYD reports and
throw negatives on him. But the age is not an issue. Now.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Godfather says You're logic once again is flawed. Godfather, when
if you ever agree with my logic, but I do agree.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
With you support in the channel.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Waste of high picks on players that will never see
the field and contribute right away is nonsense, especially when
those picks could be used on players to help them win.
Goes back to my previous comment. Though nothing's a guarantee,
you could draft to Johnson or stately Jean Baptiste both
them in the second round. One's horrifying and one's successful.
It's crapshoot. You go for the most important position in
(39:10):
the game.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
You you eloquently explained it, and everybody who thought that
logic was flawed before still think that that logic is flawed. Yeah,
it's we we.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Still love you, Saints Report dot Com. I'm just kidding.
I'm just throwing some some fun.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Thanks Football Talk dot Com while we while we're discussing it,
Saints football Talk dot Com. Yeah, I mean I've been
I've been telling y'all, like, all right, cool that the
the the the Pittsburgh still is called about she He
Obviously the Saints rebuffed them. But what that what that
(39:49):
insight gave is that teams tend to look around for
depth charts where they see a team may be overstacked,
and then they will call about the potential for that
team to maybe be willing to give up a player.
So that means that the stealers may have called about
that specific player, but what they identified is that we
have a stacked depth chart at wide receiver may not
(40:11):
have a lot of Nite talent, but there's a lot
of options there. So they called about Rashid, But that
means other time other teams are going to identify these
same things.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
It's also a week to week and Rashid.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
May not be the guy that they call about. Olive
may be.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
But it's also willingness to do it has increased this week.
If you had come in and won this game. And
let's just say Canfa had lost, Carolina had laws, which
both Carolina won and Tampa's winning.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
If that division stayed semi close, you're hesitant.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
But it's I'm asshuing it for you. Last year, Mickey
Luma said he was only into trading players that were
no longer helping the team win. That's why Latimore got traded.
From what you saw from Alive today. Is he helping
the team win right now?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
He is not a number one receiver that's helping you win.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Is he helping the team win right now? Yes? Or no? No?
Speaker 2 (41:15):
No?
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Trade him?
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Simple as up.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Now.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
You want to ask how much we getting for a Lave?
That's a great question. He's young, has a fifty year option.
A lot of teams value that.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
I don't think you're getting the first, but I do
think you can get either a Day two maybe a
later Day two pick, or multiple several Day three picks.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I want a second in the player. I want a
second in a player. And here's the thing. The reason
why I'm gonna say this is because my reference for
a Lave's value is Brandon Cooks. Do you remember when
we traded Brandon Cooks? Similar kind of scenario, except we
traded him prior to this year, all right, so Brandon
(41:56):
fetched a late first rounder from the Patriots. There was
rumors that we wanted Malcolm Brown before, but the Patriots
didn't want to give us Malcolm Brown. The reference point
for me for Alve is a second rounder and a player,
(42:16):
and I would take it if it's a corner and
a second rounder. But I think the highest you can
get for a love, including the concussion issues, is potentially
a second rounder for a love, and I would take it.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
The only difficult is gonna be that the wide receiver
trade that has been so up and down for the
past four or five years. You've seen some big names
go for like a fifth round pick, and then you've
seen guys go for a first round Like you're bringing
up the Cooks trade. You know, it's been everywhere. I
mean when Christian Kirk got traded, he went for a
seventh right, but the.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Production is there with him. And here's the thing, here's
what you're forgetting and you already added you didn't forget it.
You just forgot about it. You didn't you talked about it.
The contract is what teams are going to value.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
The most value.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
That's what's going to get you the second round pick.
He's got the production, yes, but the fact that they
can get him this year right now, where he is
still on the lower level scale of the contract, and
then have another year to watch him play before they
decide if they want to spend more money on him.
(43:25):
That's what teams are going to pay for. And that's
why I'm saying the second rounder. And we know that
because Kellen Moore talked about that's the reason the Saints
gave the fourth for Veley. It's because he was still
on the rookie contract and teams value that lower salary
more than you may think.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
To trades, I think really back up this point and
the value. Calvin Ridley got traded from Atlanta for a
third and a fifth. Chase Claypool got traded for a second. Right,
So both of those guys similar in terms of young,
contract talented, maybe not live up to certain levels of potential.
Calvin Riley case obviously unique, but you can clearly see
there's precedent recent history for second or multiple with a
(44:10):
third plus another pick or even another player like it
can definitely be done.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
I'm going for that second at the at the least
you get a third and something else. I would like
to be able to fetch a little bit more than
we got for a latti more because if we're looking
at a baseline, we got a third or fourth and
a fifth for that right, you can't come out with
anything less than just the third. Because that also had
a mega million contract that they were getting and they
(44:35):
gave that for him. So again that contract holds weight,
but also does Olive's production wise, especially those first two
years outside of that injury short in season. He's thousand
yards first year, thousand yard second year plus the contract,
you're looking at a second round that at the.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Least simply says I understand the shock was twenty three,
but twenty six.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Give me, well one more.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
That's it, I I tell you.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
I'll say one more thing.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
My experience talking to coaches, scouts, and people who work
in the front office, they do not view quarterback like
fans view quarterback.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Now it's not an insulting matter of this chat. They
do not look at things the way you look at them.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
So you have to think of it from their paradigm,
and if you disagree with them completely, your tape. But
on to another take from raheem pathetic, Sean da and
now more don't come up clutch. I don't agree on
the Sean. Sean's got tons of history of being clutched.
His team's also four and two right now. But don't
understand how this team can't be on par with the
Bucks or other teams that one I can hit you
(45:35):
on because right now they are being out coached and outplayed.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Ryan, Yeah, because your roster isn't this talented.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Tampa has a better quarterback and a way better coach.
Right now, we're better performing coach.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Absolutely, you're getting out coached, not because you don't have
the staff. It's because you're not doing the thing that
inspires courage, and anything that inspires courage is fearlessness. Fearlessness
is usually a tie to some level of aggressiveness or,
in best case, assertiveness. There are far too many opportunities
(46:11):
for Kellen Moore to be assertive and are aggressive, and
he's passing on those attempts, and therefore the team isn't
growing the way that they should in being able to
establish an identity that makes them believe that they can
win consistently and make plays. That was the biggest issue
was that we again didn't make enough plays, but the
(46:34):
coaches also could have given the players more opportunities to
make plays, specifically on the offensive side of the ball.
With Kellen more, he's not a bad coach. He's still learning,
he's still growing. I do believe that there were some
insights that hey, the Saints staff felt really good or
(46:56):
the organization felt really good about Kellen, but that he
would still be He still needs to learn how to
be a head coach. And that was the same thing
we heard with Dennis Allen. And you would hope that
he would have grown more as much younger, much much younger.
There is an opportunity for him to grow, and yet
he needs to have his river Boat Ron moment. I've
(47:17):
said that since they won. It wasn't until Ron Rivera
realized that being aggressive work when he was playing with
Cam Newton had had Keighley Newton Rivera. The more aggressive
they played, the more they won, and that's how we
got the nickname river Boat Ron. Until Kellen Moore stops
(47:37):
doing things like punning on foot down inside the forty
What was that play from week one to week two
where we were like, you go for there? What are
you doing like he had. He's had moments like that
all throughout the season, and it's a lack of him
being assertive and key moments and saying, hey, listen, we
(47:58):
got this, We're gonna get this first out. Oh wait,
we're going we're going deep hill, We're gonna we're going
for the juggular here. There has to be more moments
that inspire the players. And he also needs to stop
Somebody said this, he needs to stop being the everything
is okay guy. In other words, he needs to start
(48:20):
calling out and saying, hey, this is bad, this is
not it's not. Oh yeah, we're doing just fine here,
Everything's gonna work out. You do too much sunshine pumping,
and then people start to ignore the issues because you
keep giving the impression that everything is going to be okay.
Everything's not going to be okay. He needs to do
(48:41):
more of that.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Great example of this, because it's easy to get enamored
with it. We'll wrap up the show with this.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
It's easy to get enamor with Kellen Moore because he
does have a history of offensive play calling success.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
But you need a lot more than to be a
great head coach. Let's talk about aggressing this. One of
my favorite head coaches in the NFL right now is
Dan Campbell Detroit. He led the league last year in
fourth down attempts. He's leading the league this year in
fourth town attempts.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
His team four and one coming into this week, right
team that possibly wins their division. I'm not trying to
crown him yet. It's early, but that is not a
guy that came into the spot known for. Oh he's
an elite play caller, but he's a leader. He makes
you believe in yourself. He finds the best in you,
and he puts people around him to delegate what he's
not good at, whether that's Ben Johnson as an OC
(49:28):
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
But he's aggressive. He teaches a certain mentality, and I
think all good coaches do that.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Sean Payton did that. Sean Payton had a lot of flaws,
but he taught that mentality. Everybody had it, everybody bought
into it.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Moore's got to have the same thing.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
He could still be a good play caller, even though
I think he's making bad play calls, but he's got
to learn to be a good head coach and he's
not there yet.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Also, so Sean Payton get guys involved, like Tommy Lee Lewis. Yeah,
you see what I'm saying. Like you, he found ways
to get guys that will fifth six on the depth
chart loose, whereas you got Mason Tipton and he's still
getting maybe one or two snaps, three snaps here, like,
utilize these guys you and again it's all about inspiring
(50:12):
your players. Sean Payton was good at getting plays out
of everybody on the team in some way. He drawed.
He Peyton would draw plays for the equipment manager if
he could, just to keep them involved. Listen, I listen,
you take this right here, you double down left here,
and you're gonna drop this off at Camara Loaka for me. Yeah,
(50:33):
you gotta. You gotta utilize everybody, make everybody feel like
they're a part of something. Now. I know he did
something like that where he said he had a meeting
with the team just before the season started where they
discussed roles for each player. I thought that was smart.
I think that's something he learned from his father. And yet, listen,
involve everyone as much as you can. You could have
(50:54):
drawn up plays for Veayless Jones at some point. The
guy's got speed. Draw some plays. Even if it's one
or two plays, fine them. Sixteen passes you throw into
a live one or two of them could go to
Veayless Jones at some point, a little play drawing up fun.
One or two of those could go to Tipton at
some point, just to give somebody else an opportunity to
make a play. Good coaches do those things, agreed. Great
(51:18):
coaches do those things. It's just the little minute details
that separate the great coaches from the good coaches. And
I'm not seeing enough of it with Kellen Moore, Kellen,
if you listen, if somebody just please get this to Kellen,
tell them listen. Pay me in biscuits and doughnuts, okay,
and I'll be your little I'll be your devil on
(51:40):
your shoulder. But like Kellen, go fun. I'm telling y'all
help you. I like it.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Good to see y'all. We love you, appreciate you. Godfather
a dude.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Godfather agrees to Elliots this trade for plays a suit
More's vision, though he doesn't trust the vision.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Let's see if the vision pans out. Will hit you
with some more of this. Hope y'all enjoyed the show.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Check out Saints football talk dot com for more of
the good takes All the takes, hit up the podcast
who That.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
God Bless we love you, I appreciate you do, says
that's me. We're out. We'll see you the next one.
Who'd added to everybody, God bless glad you're here. If
you hear for a one in five Saints team. Let
me tell you one thing, you real one, you actually care,
you true fan of this team. Don't let anybody ever
call you a bandwagon.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome in.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
We're gonna talk about the Patriots taking down the New
Orleans Saints twenty five to nineteen.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Me and Ellis talked a little.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Bit before today's show, just some of our thoughts in
they aligned. So I'm very curious to see what y'all
think as we talk about this game. But more importantly,
we're were changed up. Come out with a hot topic
right off the gate, right out the bat.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Chris olave me trade.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
I thought, playing like you know that game where you
just kind of relate the word Chris trade. Them just
came up. I don't listen. Big time players make big
time plays. I agree, and alive had an opportunity for
(01:21):
several big time plays. How much have I been saying it?
All I've heard of week the week is O the
ball location. I said, if the ball get to the
court to the receiver, receiver, we got to make the catch.
No greater example than that. Then today with a lot
of catches between Olive and Juwan, somebody got to help
(01:44):
rather we get it.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
The big one with me was seeing and I brought
up you and I'm gonna let you say what your
first thought was. But seeing Ki Sham Bouti opposite side
of the field, wonder one made me convinced. And I
and I made a show months ago, said hey, it
wasn't time to tray lave because you wanted to give
Rattler every opportunity. But you're approaching the deadline. It's clear
(02:06):
you need to build for the future. And Bouti is small,
but he plays like he's six two sixty three, so
you'll think he's six two sixty three. He's five eleven
one ninety five, but you couldn't tell him playing against
the Saints defense, that's how big he is. But Elive
doesn't play with that same bigger than he is. And
if you're going to be a true number one, you
(02:28):
gotta be that guy. And I'm not even saying the
case Shun's going to be that guy. I mean, he's
still young in his career, but you saw him do
things that Alive is.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Not doing, and you gotta find that guy. So if
you can get Lave, get it.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Well, here's the name. You saw him doing things that
Olive showed his first two years he couldn't do, and
that's why he was left asking for more plays down
the line of screens are down deep during training camp.
He was lobbying for that because the team wasn't using that,
because he wasn't winning enough down the field. And yeah,
(03:07):
to your point, we discussed that Bouta ended up or well,
I want to pronounce it boot Booty ended up with
some players where I legitimately when you brought him up
thought he was six to two. Yeah, Like I was like,
oh no, I was like, yeah, he about I said, no,
he's like six two tens Like naw, he's five eleven.
And I go to look it up and yeah, he's
(03:29):
five eleven. That's that's what Ratler. If you're going to
surround Ratler with smaller receivers, they better have that skill set.
Otherwise the Saints should trade Alive and run with Vele
and I do run with that.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
We're not even saying that the Lave is bad. We're
saying he's a valuable thing that can be traded for
future assets. He's just not the guy that they need,
especially for young quarterback in Rattler here or or watch.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
This something I've and speak, I'm gonna give you the
flip side of it, or because Rattler needs a specific
skill set. We saw Shuck with a different skill set.
(04:21):
We saw Shuck throwing receivers open. We saw Shuck with
better ball location. If that's the offense you're going to run,
if that's the thing the play calls you want to do.
If you're not going to adapt, let's Shuck start getting
some snaps. Eventually, Caushuck fits the system more, he fits
(04:48):
the decision making more. Listen as much as I we're
going to point out how Rattler needs better weapons around him,
like most younger quarterbacks do. We also saw Ratler make
some questionable decisions that could have turned into worse situations,
and he got bailed out because defensive backs are defensive
(05:11):
backs for a reason. There were times throughout training camp,
times throughout preseason where Kellen Moore lauded Shuck's decision making,
saying more than once it was a high football IQ play.
The decision was Shuck took off running where he's like.
Look nine times out of ten, the quarterback throws the pass. There,
(05:35):
Shuck made a smart decision where he runs with the
ball one of the few times where they would typically
run with the ball, and it turns into a touchdown.
Though I hate to say that Shuck is Kellen's guy,
the reality of it is is he is Kellen's guy.
I exactly if Kellen isn't going to played to ratless strengths.
(06:01):
Because put it like this, I would keep Alive with
Chuck throwing him the ball. That would be the trick
because you want to see more run after catch and.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Ball and see.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Honestly, I would still trade Lave. My logic being is
because the Lave is not that guy. You've got a
lave already, his name is rashi Ya heat because you
want a lave to be above what you did.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And seen Rashid be that consistent with well, you know what, and.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
That's I mean, we're talking about Chris Lave, who's been
King of the drop this year.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Because yeah, only because's pedigreeks Rasi with his hands. Rashid
was undrafted. Therefore he's climbed up to the ranks of
where Olive is as undrafted due to his pedigree, you
(07:00):
would expect more from Olive. For me, it's so I
agree with the trade.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Like for me, it's I trade a Lave because I
honestly don't care who you have a quarterback. There are
people who full of support Rattler. I think that's fine.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
There are a lot of people who believe that Chuck
is secretly Moore's guy, not even secretly, that that's just
going to be how it is, whatever. But what I
do believe they need is a red zone target and
a traditional X split in is what they need. A
Lave can't play to that level because he's not playing
above his size. And even if Moore wants to run
a faster offense he can, he still needs the big
(07:35):
body no matter what whoever his quarterback is.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Because they want it in Juwan.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Juwan's not consistent, Juwan's Timu Jared Cook right now. They
want it in a love They don't got it, I think,
no matter what, they have to find that better receiver.
So with that said, a Lave is a target that
is good. He could be a flanker on almost any
NFL team right now and be a good player. I
mean easily as a flanker making eight hundred to one
thousand yard seasons on a good team.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Get value for it. Find you your guy.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Go and get AJ Brown. There you go, there you go.
I said it, Go get a J. Brown. He's unhappy.
Saints need that mode of receiver. I would I would
go with the youth run though, if it was me.
I That's why I'm like, just go ahead and startle,
start getting tipped in some snaps up the rotation. You're young,
(08:27):
you see where you are. But it's it's a middle line.
There's some things that I think Keller Moore needs in
this offense, and it's like.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Hey, oh, to be clear, I'm definitely not absolving him
if I think it's time management. I mean a lot
of things.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
The Patriots this game did way better. Their time management flawless,
their challenges flawless.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Coach, Yeah, very very much.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Oh so so we can lean into finally what I've
been saying for several weeks. Yeah, we've been getting our coach.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah he's a first year age seed. Maybe he finds it,
maybe he doesn't, but definitely got our coach. So I
don't want anybody to take this episode as what I'm
saying is like, oh, this is all on a Lavee. No,
but this offense is not scoring twenty plus points and
what did I say a couple of weeks ago. Until
they start consistently doing that, doesn't matter who the quarterback is,
play call or whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
The whole unit is failing. And we can talk about defense,
and I know people want to call out the defense
having issues.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
They're definitely big blown plays in this game. Defense still
held them to twenty five points. And in a modern NFL,
that's a solid defense. I'm not saying it's good. That's solid.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Your offense scoring less than twenty points, it means you're
going to be at the bottom of the league.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Coming into this game. There were twenty ninth in the
NFL in the red zone.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
We can talk about the defense having problems, it's there,
but it's offense with an offensive mined coach, with multiple
offensive mined former head coaches who have a team who
can't score in the red zone. Your only scorer came
from a Taysom Hill run, which feels like the only
time you actually saw them in the game.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I was about to say what it was more of Taysum.
This is the part where I say that instead of
killing I've been calling them cute all season. Just play
to your strengths. You got taste him back, You got
Kendre back there. You want to be this team where
you said you want these bigger guards inside. I understand
(10:13):
you probably need better guard play to truly unlocked Camaro
on the inside game. But the way that you have
a top isn't Kendre like the best back at at
yards after contacting. Okay, so if you don't have good
guard player, you need a running a runner who can
make yards after the initial contact. Kendre is better than
(10:34):
Alvin right now at that facts. So you need to
be leaning into Kendre. You need to be running the
ball more. You need to be leaning in the taste him.
You need to run the ball. You have Fuaga, he's
a run blocker. You have McCay he's a run blocker.
You have Penny, he's a run blocker. Utilize it fast
(10:57):
the ball. Listen. Ratless game is faullless. He's getting the
ball out under two point two seconds. His quick game
is flawless. Flawless. Stop making him the engine of the
offense and let the running game be the engine and
let Ratler just convert some passes here and up stop
asking him to throw the ball up and down the field,
(11:18):
up and down the field for five yards per stop.
That's on your head coach, that's on your offensive play callers.
Like I've been saying all season, everybody think I just
have these these weird takes. No, it's pretty obvious.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
My only hope is that you'll see him improve with
Tom like you would a player.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
But you have the You have enough tape on.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
More as a play caller, just like you have enough
tape on Rattler to make calls. And More is certainly
failing the the the minimum of what you would want for,
not only in OC but from an offensive minor head coach.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
And I really can't leave the thing.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
The third down conversion rate being low, the red zone
b NFL, your time manager being a problem, the guy
ending games in halves.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
With all of his timeouts.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You know didn't do it at the end of this game,
but you know for another one, your offense has struggled
to score touchdowns today. Why are you punting with four
minutes left because if they get a field goal, it's over.
Where's the where's the aggressiveness to go forward in that situation?
Speaker 2 (12:19):
And I definitely agree.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
There's been play calling problems, but just more as an
experience so far.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
About the corner when the cornerback for the Patriots went out,
that's a play with Sean Payton goes right after the
backup immediately put your best play out there. Yeah, that
play we put Cooks out there and had Ratler turned
to the other side of the field didn't even acknowledge
that they had put in a backup cornerback. That's something
in experienced coach, that's that's a play call. Whait, Immediately,
(12:49):
we're gonna attack you. You're just coming in a game.
We're gonna put a lot, We're gonna put out whoever
our best player is right there on you, and we're
gonna attack those Those are the coaching decisions that listen.
You hope he can improve on in due time. You
hope that that's something he improves on, because what I've
(13:10):
been saying it, I'm five games in and the mistakes
are getting worse than not getting better from him.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, and I want to point out that he's also
got a lot of good gameplay from We keep talking
about the offensive line. According to Sis, again, different analytics
who have different numbers always compare same the same, but
on this show, we typically always give you either SIS
or NFL. Next Gyen Spencer Rattler coming into this game
been pressured.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Are only fourteen percent of his snaps?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Right, We've looked at guys like Kendre Miller who are
averaging at the top of the league.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
He's top ten in yards after contact.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So it's not like he's got a I've seen too
many people say this team is lacking talent, and I'm
not saying they have elite Pro Bowlers, Hall of famers,
but the numbers aren't backing up what the results are.
Because if your quarterbacks only being pressured fourteen percent, he mind,
there's some quarterbacks being pressured over of their snaps consistently.
If you've got a running back who is consistently in
(14:04):
the top of yards after contact and yet you're averaging
only eight carries with that running back.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Those are coaching problems. Those aren't talent problems with all.
And I do believe we can get better.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
We just talked about wanting to trade larvae, but there
are a lot of things that just aren't adding up
when you talk about what could be better on this team.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
That isn't the math. Ain't math.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
He's not playing into the strengths of his team. I'm
telling you Kellen Moore. Kellen Moore gives me Lebron and
not Jordan. Jordan had a killer instinct. There's a reason
I'm a Jordan fan over. I won't discuss who is
better depending on your generation. What I will say is
that Jordan like Kobe or Kobe like Jordan, those players
(14:50):
have a killer instinct where they will attack when they
smell weakness. There are too many opportunities for killing Moore
to smell weakness on an opposed defense, and he doesn't
call the play. He'd rather just dish the ball off.
I hate it, and it's it's more than just offensive,
(15:13):
it's it's coaching in general. There's moments where you say, listen,
we're going for all four downs. We're gonna go for
it on fourth down on this series, based on the
situation in the game. We need it right here, win
this moment. Let's take this first play and let's throw
the ball deep. It's a free play. Let's let's let's
attack him deep because we're gonna go for a second, third,
(15:34):
and fourth anyway, which.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
He did a freak script and then never came back
to it because that was the big play to all
love it, and then he never returned to it.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
So you and that's something he's got to lean into
consistently because obviously when he does, it works. So at
some point he's gotta I hope there's an analyst and
a data analyst that's there that can feed him this
data so that he can adjust, because the more aggressive
he gets, the better the team performs. Once you can
(16:04):
evat once he starts calling better play calls, you can
get a better evaluation of the offense and the players
in it. Then you can start determining who you can
because I mean, obviously, maybe Juwan is gonna be there,
looks like another year, But Juwan shouldn't be leading the
team in in targets or not necessarily leading the team,
(16:24):
but he shouldn't be one of the highest targeted tight
ends in the league. I feel like that's out of
necessity because the return on investment isn't there. You saw
that twenty percent drop in Crypto, Yeah, I saw twenty
percent drop rate in Juwan Johnson too.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
One.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I'm gonna give one more because I don't like to
be completely negative. Everything you're saying is valid. He did
finally line Kamara out wide and in the slot and
use him in that way today.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Finally, it's a hack.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Listen, if you look at Kamara, let me see, let
me pull this up. You go ahead and carry this
for a second. I'm I'm gonna look up something.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, for Chad.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
All year we've been talking about how we've known that
Kamara has been one of the best dual threat running
backs four years. Well up to this point, they've almost
not use him at all in the slaughter, even lining him.
U about why is the flanker to try to create mismatches?
Today they did that. He went five receptions, five targets,
forty five yards with a twenty two yarder as the
long including multiple intentional throws with him lining up as
(17:24):
wide receiver. And yet, why is it taking six weeks
for your star player? And look, when we say what
we want about a love of people whatever, Alba Kamara
is the face of this team still, yes, thirty years old,
et cetera.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Still the face.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Six weeks to get to that point now, I'm glad
it's there, But why six weeks?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
What you got for me?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Elis Kamara. Listen, Kamara is a kum boulding with maybe
questionable a little bit more questionable hand, but he's a
legitimate weapon in the slat. I mean, that's it was something.
So what I'm looking for is I'm pulling up pff,
I'm having a log in here. Samara's usage as a
slot receiver his rookie year was pretty high up there,
(18:05):
and then it slowly, it slowly trickled down. But then
you saw where when we got under Pete, it continued
to go, but it dropped at a significant rate under
Pete called Michael's play calling. It is the it's the
cheat code that's waiting to be used that nobody's used
it since his rookie year because he was expected to
(18:27):
be the main guy the following year. Right, you see
what Alvin Kamara does, so naturally his second year, you're
going to expect him to carry a little bit more
of the load. So you saw less of mark Ingram
more of Alvin Kamara. Right, Alvin's at the stage in
his career where he should be taking Marshall fulk like
carries most of his snaps, should be a receiver. You
(18:49):
got a young bull and Kendred. The only thing holding
Kendred back is killing Moore, not giving the ball to
Kendre Moore.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, I mean, Kendra is a ball out there. Alvin
Kamara doesn't because I've seen people say trade Kamara. Kamara
one doesn't want to. But Kamera can still have two
to three productive years on this team just not being
used as a bell cow. And I'm not even saying
that he doesn't need to get ten carries.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
But Ken J.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Miller can be the guy.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
You could have split back situations where we have both
Miller and Kamara on the field and force things to
be used in terms of Kamara's slot ability to your advantage,
which will do nothing, if nothing else, open up the
box more for Miller because if you put Ak out
on the slot, you have to respect him, whether you
do that with your best linebacker or your nickel corner,
(19:31):
which frees up a spot for Miller. I don't understand
why things like split back aren't used more because you've
seen Ak use that way with multiple offensive coordinators effectively.
And yet, and I love your point because at this
point in his career, it's time for him to switch
back to what he was as a rookie when he
wasn't the number one guy.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Ingram was the main They knew.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
AK was going to grow into it, but it left
room for AK to be the versatile knife. He's back
to that point. He's not going to carry the team
on his back anymore, or you could ask him to
if you really want to, you know, diminish the carriages
of his career.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
But you can have a lot of success with Aka.
There's no reason that he should not be out on
the slot.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
More So, check this out. Here's what I and this
is something that Kellen can unlock. I hope someone has analytics.
Twenty two point seven percentage of his snaps in his
rookie year at what came from the slot the second year, seventeen,
third year eleven, fourth, twelve, fifth, thirteen, sixth four point two, seventh,
(20:35):
five point two. He went back up to sixteen percent
last year and also conversely was one of famaris bounce
back year last year. Right. Now, here's the further thing.
Out wide, He was used nineteen percent of the time
out wide as a rookie sixteen percent thirteen ten, fourteen, six,
(20:57):
five four five. There is something Reggie Bush said a
few years back he said, Hey, I could extended my
career if I the play wide receiver. If the Saints
use Kamara more formational wise as a receiver in certain
plays but on a higher footage and keep Miller on
(21:19):
the field as a runner, they could be adding a
They could be adding the run after catch specialists that
the offense is missing just by moving Kamara into that role.
Because he wants to run screens, he wants to do
all these things. Well, then just make Alvin Kamara that guy,
but just use him the way he needs to be used,
which is as a receiver more just just.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
George for this year in the slot leading of this game.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
So first individual, first five games so far for Kamara
used in the slot and out watch. I'm sure it's
single digits. But and also shouts to Shelton Bill, say
you for supporting the shown says. They say that they
we should trade a lave for aj Brown. Personally, just me,
I'd rather trade him for draft capital and picks. But
I also understand when that's coming from reason. Yeah, what
(22:12):
would you.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Got seven point seven in the slot this year?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Five point one out wide? So are we seeing him? So?
Currently he's approaching Pete Carmichael levels of using Kamara and
the slot, and those were also Kamara's least productive years.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
That's the grossest sight I've ever heard, compared more to
Pete Carmichael, and that.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Is But that's some sortunate because what I've been saying,
the reason I would trade Kamara because is obviously you're
not gonna use him, right, That's what I keep saying.
It's obvious that Kellen Moore is going to be who
he wants to be. The game where we looked competent
as an offense, he said, oh, we were in the
gun too much. I wanted to get out of gun.
I wanted to be more on the center. We went
(22:51):
right back into the gun the last two weeks, right
back into it. So he's got this identity that he
wants to do. This is like, cool, if you're gonna
be that way, go get the players that let you
do that. But if you're not, then work with the
players better that you do have.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Really making me miss Clint Kubiak man, Clint got done
so dirty with everything that happened last year. And look
what Seattle's doing. And I'm not saying Clint Kubiak was
a perfect o. See but Seattle's four and two, that
office is click with Sam Darnold, and we've got Kella
Moore using Ak seven percent of the time of the slot.
Where last year you saw Ak hit he was seven
(23:29):
yards away from a fifteen hundred scrimmage yard season. I
mean those are elite running back numbers, and this year
he's on pace to barely hit a thousand. That's I
don't think that Ak has fallen off like that.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Like I'm not saying he is what he was in
twenty twenty one, but he's not falling off. He's not
out there hobbling.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Go back and look at those episodes. Go back and
look at our first episode from the first two games,
and I was screaming, why the hell's so we throwing
Alvin Kamara the ball on a swing ride to let
them line up and get hit and forced to fumble
when you can just turn around and handle the ball
on the outside of the inside zone scheme and watch
him go for five or six years. At least he
gets to protect himself. Kellen Moore has been using all
(24:12):
of the players very wrong, That's why.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And like if the Saints had a better record, you know,
because Shelton's saying, trade for a J.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Brown.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I'd be more on if the Saints weren't one and
five because at this point, don't trade for an elite
or even a high end.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah player, at this point, yeah, I would go.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
But I still get what they're saying because look at
those type of plays. A swing play is not too
different from a wide receiver screen in a lot of
ways because you're just trying to clear out for the swing.
But with the receiver you typically have a quicker and
better option in terms of bigger option for those quick yards.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
An AJ Brown type could do it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
But listen, you need, like you said, you need the
people for what more wants to run?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I would rather him run what you have available right now.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
If you're gonna do that, just line Comera up at
receiving anyway, at least again, instead of sending him on
a flare route where he's the player that's watching him
in coverage is looking to nail him. So you send
him out on this flare route. Spencer's late getting them
the ball, he catches it, and the first thing they
do is line him up popping. Well, you might as
(25:17):
well just split him out there wide receiver and just
throw him a quick screen from the start and at
least everybody knows he's getting the ball and it's going
Now if that's what you want to do, it's just
use him better. Stop stop getting cute with how you're
going to use him, and just use him for what
you ask him to do. You don't, you don't have
a successful like what how many yards per care? We
(25:39):
had eight nine yards carry that game. Probably a little less.
I might be exaggerating it, but whatever, But you have
a game where you do that and you it's it's
after you switch the more outside zone running and then
you come right back around the following week and start
running and go back to gap scheme, and then and
then you wonder why you don't have a run game
to run play action off of it. During the broadcast,
(26:00):
as the announcers brought up that, hey, play action has
been looking good. He's only called five play action passes
this game. Heard it it works, So why not do it?
You know? Why not do it? Because Kellor Moore doesn't
want to call play action. He wants to he wants
to run from the gun.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Another stat just because I would have really really emphasized
this Kamara thing. I went and looked up on the
NFL next year, he's averaging four point eight yards of
separation win actually used in the passing.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Game, which would be better than anybody else on the team.
By the way, nobody else has averaged it anywhere close
to five yard separation in the passing game except Kellen.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
If you watch this, just trust some more plays off
for Kamara in the as a receiver in the slot.
Put Kendre on the field. More run the ball, more
run play action. You'll win more. You'll score over twenty points. Yeah,
I guaranteed you will score over twenty points if you
just do that, and and and if gonna trade Olive,
(27:02):
I'm cool with the picks. Trade them for cornerback because
you need one. You need one. You need a cornerback.
Secondary is too young not to have an established cornerback
out there. That's actually good. I understand you went with Ike. Uh,
you went with Ike Turner, Timmy Turner, whatever. Get them.
(27:24):
I couldn't get them. You went with get them, but
get them with you know, like a C plus C minus.
You need at least you need You need a competent,
veteran corner there that can still give you some high
level play because that defense requires intelligence from the secondary.
Saint I ain't playing enough football yet, He's still gonna
(27:46):
get confused. Y's been. But then you got you got
kool Aid out there in his second year making mistakes. Cool,
I get it. He's still young. Now you got your
other fourth round pick out there make a mistake. I
get it, he's still young. You got Taylor still out
there making coverage mistakes, but we want to pay him
along with his twenty missed tackles a year. Why are
(28:07):
we discussing extending Taylor? I don't know. Because Brandon Stately
is saying he's got all the stuff. I'm not for it.
I'm not with it. No disrespect to him, but I
think you can get a little bit more from that
position with better tackling if that's what you're gonna do
for a little bit less money. Regardless of that, you've
your secondary is young and needs some veteran players there.
Eric Greed ain't doing enough.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
All of that said, and this is I think the
worst part. The defense is still better than the offense.
I don't think a lot of people want to hear that,
but the defense is still better.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Defense I can give him that credit. I can give
him that credit.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Defense, I don't give him that credit. Including Drake May
who scrambled nine times. Defense held him rushing two point
four yards per attempt. That's it right now. They give
up big plays.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yes, Sanker is not even had six games as a starter.
He bat on some Yankee concepts. He gave him some
big plays. Young guys are gonna have that problem. Yeah,
but this team had what seven tackles for loss? Put
consistent pressure on a quarterback who is really jumping up
in terms of his improvement. Hopefully see the same thing
with Rattler as he gets more snaps.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Defense is playing existence and people can say what they
want about the defense, but the defense is not out
here giving up forty point games. The offense is the
ones who can't even score twenty.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
And again we're going just based on consistency you've had
Ratler and not blaming Ratler, just saying Ratler has scored
with his offense more than twenty points.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
What twice in twelve games? Now, I think a lot
of that is on Kellamore right now. But when you
say whatever you want about the defense, doesn't really matter
if your team is scoring nineteen seventy two levels of
offensive points. You're just not gonna win football games.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Good Kamario, what I receive agreed. Involve Shaheed in the
offense more. Listen. If you're gonna force the ball to anybody,
should be forcing them to shhed Dug. He's your biggest
should he along with Ratler with his legs, along with Kamara,
along with Kendre. Those are your offensive playmakers on the team.
(30:08):
Those are your consistent offensive play makers on the team.
I would say Juwan is sitting right on the outside
of that because of his consistency and his drops. But
I would say your most explosive plays, you guys that
have come with the biggest plays have been him, Kamara,
Kendre and uh that's it and yeah kamaray, him, Kendra
(30:33):
and whoever else. Anyway, but you're forcing the ball to
elive with Listen. I get it, you want to do
that with a lot, but you're just running the scheme
a wrong way with the players that you have. That's
really it. If you would just focus on what he
has and just build around that and play call around
that starts running the ball, the Saints offense would score
(30:55):
more put it like this, Ratler would probably look just
as good with a healthy team in Seattle under that
offensive scheme, because that's the way you have to play
to support Ratler the best.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I'd argue he'd probably a little bit better.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I mean, I'm I'm under selling it here because I'm like, hey,
I mean, he could it, but he's again, if Kellen
Moore wants to do what Kelling Moore does, then you
might as well go with Shuck. If shuck it. If
if Ratley is getting pressured the least amount that he's
getting pressured, and you're worried about Shuck getting killed, but
it's clear that the offensive nine is playing better than
(31:32):
it's getting credit for, you might as well start Shuck.
At least Shuck plays the way you want to play.
It's like, look, if you go if you're gonna do this,
if you're gonna be you know, hard headed, then just
do it with the guys that do it well, then.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Very curiously where they're gonna have a couple questions and
comments from the chat here, Drede says Shun probably should
not have been drafted that high. Ratler not the problem,
could have had a second round picker, and I would
say this Dre we don't know if he's going to
be a successful failure, but I will say until you
have a franchise quarterback, you address.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It and keep draft every time.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Look Ler, Yeah, if Radler becomes a franchise quarterback, Shuck
wasn't a waste because Shuck was part of the process
to find the franchise. If Rattler isn't and Shuck is,
you find. If Shuck's not, it's fine until you have
that guy. Because at any given time there are maybe
five to ten franchise level quarterbacks in the NFL. You
go every time, and that doesn't mean a second rounder
(32:29):
can't find it. Right every you attempt until you find it.
New England's trying to do the same thing you had.
Jacoby Bris said to come back to New England starting
while they're working on Drake May.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
They got Drake maybe and the guy this year.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
You literally had people calling him franchise looking throws and
stuff in this game in the broadcast.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Right, you go until you find it. Now, I'm not
saying Shuck is going to be that guy, but I
also don't have an issue with the pick. Like you
got to make the attempt.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
It's it's whatever logic you go into. Listen, it's simple.
What you're saying makes sense. If you were convinced that
you were ready to roll with Ratler, if you had
convinced yourself as an organization that hey, we're just gonna
roll with Ratler this year. In other words, the Saints
would have had decided that they weren't going to be
able to win a division and be a winning team,
(33:17):
and so you say, hey, we're just gonna roll with
second year Ratler. That option was there. It's clear that
they felt that they could win in the division. So
at that point you don't know what Ratler is, so
you draft the quarterback there for competition. That way, now
you have not only one player you think potentially could
be that guy, you know, I have two. Conversely with Schuck,
(33:40):
as we've seen with different quarterbacks, Mahomes didn't start his
rookie year, Jordan Love didn't start his rookie year. Who
else didn't start. If you give them an opportunity to
develop over time, it helps them. Just throwing them into.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
The fire if.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
There's an elite, elite talent. But you have to keep
in mind the teams that are doing this are picking
that high because they're bad teams, so bad teams are
going to continue to do bad things. Yep, that's how
you get Sam Donald looking the way Sam Donald does.
But he couldn't look like that in New York because
they needed him to play earlier then he was capable
(34:22):
of playing, and then you end up giving up on
him too fast, and now you have to watch that
first round pick play well somewhere else. Good teams draft
quarterbacks and allow them to develop behind the scenes for
as long as they can. So when you don't have
a quarterback, yes, you say, hey, I'm going to try
(34:45):
to build on this and I'm gonna draft somebody. But
that's if you felt that you were ready to go
with Ratler full time, then yes, you say, hey, let
me take the best player here, the best tight end.
But considering you only going into the team into the
year with two quarterbacks because at this point Carr has retired,
were those those only two quarterbacks were the two guys
(35:06):
that you had last year where Ratler already beat him out.
So if you want to have competition there, you have
to add to the rotation. And so Shuck was sitting there.
You sit there and wait and I've always said I
don't think the Saints were enamored with Shuck because they
sat there and let him come to them. If they
(35:27):
were enamored with him, they would have moved up to
go and get him. They didn't, So in other words,
they were okay. If somebody would have picked Shuck ahead
of them, they would have been completely okay with that,
but nobody did. He was there, so they took him.
There Was it worth the pick? Arguably you can say
you could have had a better player there, and yet
if he hits a year two years down the line,
(35:50):
then it definitely was worth it because it's the most
important position in football.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, I mean, and that's what it comes down to.
You're focusing on that, and we've gone through this. There's
multiple reports, and somebody's gonna take him. If New Orleans
didn't take him at forty, that's part of why he goes. Look,
and whether you like him or don't, completely fine. I
get the logic.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
It's always easy to, you know, go back in history
and say, well, this should have got you know, Johnson cornerback. Yeah,
he's great. He also could have been Stanley Jean Baptiste.
There's no guarantees in the draft, you address what you
need to address, you go from there. This scouting room
has been much better than they've been bad compared to
the rest of the NFL.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Right, we'll we'll see where it goes.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Man, I'm still a one in five team, but there's
definitely some young piece of I'm we're gonna grab a
couple more. They want to wrap it up, all right,
appreciate y'all being here means a loss, and like I
said at the beginning of the show, the fact that
y'all come here for the team being one and five
shows that you really care about the team.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
You'd be frustrated. I'm not saying your frustrations aren't valid,
but who that to you?
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Y'all come in for these for these insights. Listen, if
you are listening to this and listening with me and
rev talking about there would be some of the things
that we're talking about that you may be able to
go on another podcast and here I can promise you that.
But there are some things that Rever and I are
saying right now that we're giving you that nobody else
is talking about.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I guarantee you there are little insights that only you
can find here on this podcast with these two people.
Guarantee you I sold the hell out of that real quick.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I want to grab one from all stacks.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
He says, you pick a guy that spent a decade
in college in the second round that needs time to develop. Yes,
because look, let me give you the logic as to
want and I'm saying, okay, you're more to welcome disagree
with me. In terms of position. That is the average
retirement age. Did you know an NFL quarterback average?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
What he's baiting you that to him? I think it's
because the logic is very, very It's fine, we've already explained.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
The rest of the class.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Though.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Average quarterback I'M retires in the NFL thirty five to
thirty eight. So even if your argument's true and it
takes him till he's thirty, that means you've got five
to eight years. Again, if we're in the magical scenario,
we're show kids five to eight years of elite quarterback play.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
That's two contracts. That's fine. It's not like he's a
corner that.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
You worry about him going from a four to three
to a four to six running speed by the time
he's twenty nine years old. It's fine. It's a quarterback,
not a skill position player. Now, if it fails, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
But his age certainly didn't stop plenty of teams from
evaluating him very highly. That's not a nay. If you
can throw on them. Now, if you want to throw
negatives on Shock, we can bring out SKYD reports and
throw negatives on him. But the age is not an issue. Now.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Godfather says You're logic once again is flawed. Godfather, when
if you ever agree with my logic, but I do agree.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
With you support in the channel.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Waste of high picks on players that will never see
the field and contribute right away is nonsense, especially when
those picks could be used on players to help them win.
Goes back to my previous comment. Though nothing's a guarantee,
you could draft to Johnson or stately Jean Baptiste both
them in the second round. One's horrifying and one's successful.
It's crapshoot. You go for the most important position in
(39:10):
the game.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
You you eloquently explained it, and everybody who thought that
logic was flawed before still think that that logic is flawed. Yeah,
it's we we.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Still love you, Saints Report dot Com. I'm just kidding.
I'm just throwing some some fun.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Thanks Football Talk dot Com while we while we're discussing it,
Saints football Talk dot Com. Yeah, I mean I've been
I've been telling y'all, like, all right, cool that the
the the the Pittsburgh still is called about she He
Obviously the Saints rebuffed them. But what that what that
(39:49):
insight gave is that teams tend to look around for
depth charts where they see a team may be overstacked,
and then they will call about the potential for that
team to maybe be willing to give up a player.
So that means that the stealers may have called about
that specific player, but what they identified is that we
have a stacked depth chart at wide receiver may not
(40:11):
have a lot of Nite talent, but there's a lot
of options there. So they called about Rashid, But that
means other time other teams are going to identify these
same things.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
It's also a week to week and Rashid.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
May not be the guy that they call about. Olive
may be.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
But it's also willingness to do it has increased this week.
If you had come in and won this game. And
let's just say Canfa had lost, Carolina had laws, which
both Carolina won and Tampa's winning.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
If that division stayed semi close, you're hesitant.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
But it's I'm asshuing it for you. Last year, Mickey
Luma said he was only into trading players that were
no longer helping the team win. That's why Latimore got traded.
From what you saw from Alive today. Is he helping
the team win right now?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
He is not a number one receiver that's helping you win.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Is he helping the team win right now? Yes? Or no? No?
Speaker 2 (41:15):
No?
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Trade him?
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Simple as up.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Now.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
You want to ask how much we getting for a Lave?
That's a great question. He's young, has a fifty year option.
A lot of teams value that.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
I don't think you're getting the first, but I do
think you can get either a Day two maybe a
later Day two pick, or multiple several Day three picks.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I want a second in the player. I want a
second in a player. And here's the thing. The reason
why I'm gonna say this is because my reference for
a Lave's value is Brandon Cooks. Do you remember when
we traded Brandon Cooks? Similar kind of scenario, except we
traded him prior to this year, all right, so Brandon
(41:56):
fetched a late first rounder from the Patriots. There was
rumors that we wanted Malcolm Brown before, but the Patriots
didn't want to give us Malcolm Brown. The reference point
for me for Alve is a second rounder and a player,
(42:16):
and I would take it if it's a corner and
a second rounder. But I think the highest you can
get for a love, including the concussion issues, is potentially
a second rounder for a love, and I would take it.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
The only difficult is gonna be that the wide receiver
trade that has been so up and down for the
past four or five years. You've seen some big names
go for like a fifth round pick, and then you've
seen guys go for a first round Like you're bringing
up the Cooks trade. You know, it's been everywhere. I
mean when Christian Kirk got traded, he went for a
seventh right, but the.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Production is there with him. And here's the thing, here's
what you're forgetting and you already added you didn't forget it.
You just forgot about it. You didn't you talked about it.
The contract is what teams are going to value.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
The most value.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
That's what's going to get you the second round pick.
He's got the production, yes, but the fact that they
can get him this year right now, where he is
still on the lower level scale of the contract, and
then have another year to watch him play before they
decide if they want to spend more money on him.
(43:25):
That's what teams are going to pay for. And that's
why I'm saying the second rounder. And we know that
because Kellen Moore talked about that's the reason the Saints
gave the fourth for Veley. It's because he was still
on the rookie contract and teams value that lower salary
more than you may think.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
To trades, I think really back up this point and
the value. Calvin Ridley got traded from Atlanta for a
third and a fifth. Chase Claypool got traded for a second. Right,
So both of those guys similar in terms of young,
contract talented, maybe not live up to certain levels of potential.
Calvin Riley case obviously unique, but you can clearly see
there's precedent recent history for second or multiple with a
(44:10):
third plus another pick or even another player like it
can definitely be done.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
I'm going for that second at the at the least
you get a third and something else. I would like
to be able to fetch a little bit more than
we got for a latti more because if we're looking
at a baseline, we got a third or fourth and
a fifth for that right, you can't come out with
anything less than just the third. Because that also had
a mega million contract that they were getting and they
(44:35):
gave that for him. So again that contract holds weight,
but also does Olive's production wise, especially those first two
years outside of that injury short in season. He's thousand
yards first year, thousand yard second year plus the contract,
you're looking at a second round that at the.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Least simply says I understand the shock was twenty three,
but twenty six.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Give me, well one more.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
That's it, I I tell you.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
I'll say one more thing.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
My experience talking to coaches, scouts, and people who work
in the front office, they do not view quarterback like
fans view quarterback.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Now it's not an insulting matter of this chat. They
do not look at things the way you look at them.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
So you have to think of it from their paradigm,
and if you disagree with them completely, your tape. But
on to another take from raheem pathetic, Sean da and
now more don't come up clutch. I don't agree on
the Sean. Sean's got tons of history of being clutched.
His team's also four and two right now. But don't
understand how this team can't be on par with the
Bucks or other teams that one I can hit you
(45:35):
on because right now they are being out coached and outplayed.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Ryan, Yeah, because your roster isn't this talented.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Tampa has a better quarterback and a way better coach.
Right now, we're better performing coach.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Absolutely, you're getting out coached, not because you don't have
the staff. It's because you're not doing the thing that
inspires courage, and anything that inspires courage is fearlessness. Fearlessness
is usually a tie to some level of aggressiveness or,
in best case, assertiveness. There are far too many opportunities
(46:11):
for Kellen Moore to be assertive and are aggressive, and
he's passing on those attempts, and therefore the team isn't
growing the way that they should in being able to
establish an identity that makes them believe that they can
win consistently and make plays. That was the biggest issue
was that we again didn't make enough plays, but the
(46:34):
coaches also could have given the players more opportunities to
make plays, specifically on the offensive side of the ball.
With Kellen more, he's not a bad coach. He's still learning,
he's still growing. I do believe that there were some
insights that hey, the Saints staff felt really good or
(46:56):
the organization felt really good about Kellen, but that he
would still be He still needs to learn how to
be a head coach. And that was the same thing
we heard with Dennis Allen. And you would hope that
he would have grown more as much younger, much much younger.
There is an opportunity for him to grow, and yet
he needs to have his river Boat Ron moment. I've
(47:17):
said that since they won. It wasn't until Ron Rivera
realized that being aggressive work when he was playing with
Cam Newton had had Keighley Newton Rivera. The more aggressive
they played, the more they won, and that's how we
got the nickname river Boat Ron. Until Kellen Moore stops
(47:37):
doing things like punning on foot down inside the forty
What was that play from week one to week two
where we were like, you go for there? What are
you doing like he had. He's had moments like that
all throughout the season, and it's a lack of him
being assertive and key moments and saying, hey, listen, we
(47:58):
got this, We're gonna get this first out. Oh wait,
we're going we're going deep hill, We're gonna we're going
for the juggular here. There has to be more moments
that inspire the players. And he also needs to stop
Somebody said this, he needs to stop being the everything
is okay guy. In other words, he needs to start
(48:20):
calling out and saying, hey, this is bad, this is
not it's not. Oh yeah, we're doing just fine here,
Everything's gonna work out. You do too much sunshine pumping,
and then people start to ignore the issues because you
keep giving the impression that everything is going to be okay.
Everything's not going to be okay. He needs to do
(48:41):
more of that.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Great example of this, because it's easy to get enamored
with it. We'll wrap up the show with this.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
It's easy to get enamor with Kellen Moore because he
does have a history of offensive play calling success.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
But you need a lot more than to be a
great head coach. Let's talk about aggressing this. One of
my favorite head coaches in the NFL right now is
Dan Campbell Detroit. He led the league last year in
fourth down attempts. He's leading the league this year in
fourth town attempts.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
His team four and one coming into this week, right
team that possibly wins their division. I'm not trying to
crown him yet. It's early, but that is not a
guy that came into the spot known for. Oh he's
an elite play caller, but he's a leader. He makes
you believe in yourself. He finds the best in you,
and he puts people around him to delegate what he's
not good at, whether that's Ben Johnson as an OC
(49:28):
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
But he's aggressive. He teaches a certain mentality, and I
think all good coaches do that.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Sean Payton did that. Sean Payton had a lot of flaws,
but he taught that mentality. Everybody had it, everybody bought
into it.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Moore's got to have the same thing.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
He could still be a good play caller, even though
I think he's making bad play calls, but he's got
to learn to be a good head coach and he's
not there yet.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Also, so Sean Payton get guys involved, like Tommy Lee Lewis. Yeah,
you see what I'm saying. Like you, he found ways
to get guys that will fifth six on the depth
chart loose, whereas you got Mason Tipton and he's still
getting maybe one or two snaps, three snaps here, like,
utilize these guys you and again it's all about inspiring
(50:12):
your players. Sean Payton was good at getting plays out
of everybody on the team in some way. He drawed.
He Peyton would draw plays for the equipment manager if
he could, just to keep them involved. Listen, I listen,
you take this right here, you double down left here,
and you're gonna drop this off at Camara Loaka for me. Yeah,
(50:33):
you gotta. You gotta utilize everybody, make everybody feel like
they're a part of something. Now. I know he did
something like that where he said he had a meeting
with the team just before the season started where they
discussed roles for each player. I thought that was smart.
I think that's something he learned from his father. And yet, listen,
involve everyone as much as you can. You could have
(50:54):
drawn up plays for Veayless Jones at some point. The
guy's got speed. Draw some plays. Even if it's one
or two plays, fine them. Sixteen passes you throw into
a live one or two of them could go to
Veayless Jones at some point, a little play drawing up fun.
One or two of those could go to Tipton at
some point, just to give somebody else an opportunity to
make a play. Good coaches do those things, agreed. Great
(51:18):
coaches do those things. It's just the little minute details
that separate the great coaches from the good coaches. And
I'm not seeing enough of it with Kellen Moore, Kellen,
if you listen, if somebody just please get this to Kellen,
tell them listen. Pay me in biscuits and doughnuts, okay,
and I'll be your little I'll be your devil on
(51:40):
your shoulder. But like Kellen, go fun. I'm telling y'all
help you. I like it.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Good to see y'all. We love you, appreciate you. Godfather
a dude.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Godfather agrees to Elliots this trade for plays a suit
More's vision, though he doesn't trust the vision.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Let's see if the vision pans out. Will hit you
with some more of this. Hope y'all enjoyed the show.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Check out Saints football talk dot com for more of
the good takes All the takes, hit up the podcast
who That.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
God Bless we love you, I appreciate you do, says
that's me. We're out. We'll see you the next one.
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