November 3, 2025 • 18 mins
The "Thin Blue Line" has a probable origin in military history. It has been employed as a symbol of law enforcement, but commoly applied in contrast to other social causes. We discuss the history of the Thin Blue Line, the origin of the modern flag with a blue stripe interpretation of this idea, criticisms of the Thin Blue Line, and enumerate the controvertial uses of this iconography... all within the scope of a single mini!
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Support our podcast: www.patreon.com/wwdwwdpodcast
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Links and References:
- https://www.police1.com/police-history/articles/what-does-the-thin-blue-line-flag-mean-2J3500lyyaGueEo0/
- https://nationalpolice.org/that-thin-blue-line-what-does-it-really-mean/
- https://www.vedderholsters.com/news-articles/back-the-blue-history-and-symbolism-of-the-thin-blue-line/
- https://www.businessinsider.com/how-thin-blue-line-became-controversial-symbol-to-represent-police-2021-2
- https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/06/08/the-short-fraught-history-of-the-thin-blue-line-american-flag
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/why-we-do-what-we-do--3419521/support.
Support our podcast: www.patreon.com/wwdwwdpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to why we do what we do. Welcome
to why we do what we do? Mini. I'm your
host Abraham, and I'm your host Shane. I've decided there's
a way that I say Mini, whenever I introduced this.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I love it. I fully support it. I have noticed that,
and I'm like, that's great.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
that humans and non human animals do, and on Mondays
we release these short formed episodes that are like ten
fifteen minutes long where we just dig into a topic
and then we get out of there and let you
go about your day. We are out of Halloween Spooky
season month, which is always a bittersweet goodbye, but it
(00:52):
gives us time to prepare some new wonderful Halloween content
for next year. In the meantime, we'll resume our sort
of normal mini topics. It's just sort of struck me.
I've seen this around a lot, so I decided we're
going to talk about the thin blue line. So that
is our topic for this many today.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
And if you're not familiar with the thin blue line,
it is a symbol that is supposed to represent support
of law enforcement. So you've probably seen it. It's usually
like a black and white American flag with like a
really thin blue line right in the middle of it.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yes, we'll describe the design and all of that, but
before we dig into our topic here, i'd like to say,
if you're joining us for the first time, welcome. We
hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you're a turning listener,
then welcome back. We're really happy either way, however you
found us. If you would like to support us, you
can join us on Patreon, leave us a rating or review,
like subscribe, tell a friend, and of course just keep
listening to episodes. Is really great. Yeah, if you feel
(01:43):
like this one particularly resonates, then definitely share it with
people who maybe need to hear it. Although we'll brace
ourselves with the impact of the hate mail we might get.
But I think that that is what we have to
say before we dive into our topic here. And I
do want to try and preface this by saying that
we are are going to try and present this as
objectively and as charitably as we can. Yea, but also
(02:07):
like we're gonna call a spade a spade, We're gonna
be real about the situation that we're dealing with Hereah. So,
as you said, Shane, then the idea of the thin
blue line is that it's meant to represent support of
law enforcement. That I think is the crux of the
foundation for the idea here is what most people who
are sporting this logo or who say this phrase, or
(02:31):
who employ this idea because it sort of started as
a phrase before it was a logo, that's what they
mean by it is that they're just indicating solidary and
support of law enforcement more broadly. But it's also like,
it's just a fact that the thin Blue line iconography
and symbolism and the saying itself has become very politically charged.
(02:54):
It has become a divisive symbol, and it has been
used to inspire controversy and conflict even while it sits
there trying to appear noble and innocent. And I know
that people who who wear those and support them are
going to say, well, that's not what it means. And
I'm like, it's fine for that to not mean that
to you, but that is what it means to some
people like that. That's just what it is, and that's
(03:17):
not how it's being used, and it's not how it's
generally being used. It's very important.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, So we're going to discuss the history of the
thin blue line, what it purports, the mean, and what
makes it controversial.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
All right, So, the thin blue line is a phrase
associated with police because the color of their uniforms is
commonly blue, and therefore blue represents the police. This is
like a menonym for police. You'll see other employment of
blue as a menonym for police, as in Blue Bloods,
Boys in Blue, Blue Knights, k n I g HTS
(03:47):
Back the Blue, Men in Blue and Blue Lives Matter,
as like an aspect of how this shows up in
the a similar space. Really, Yeah, and most sources agree
that this is likely. It likely refers to the thin
Red Line, which was a Scottish regiment of British soldiers
wearing red uniforms who were badly outnumbered by by attacking
(04:08):
Russian forces during the Crimean War in a eighteen fifty
four battle. Yeah, so I think it was something like
twenty five hundred against nine hundred or something like. They
were very outnumbered the Scottish British forces. They held the
ground against the attacks and they were immortalized in a
poem by Lord Tennyson. The poem was called Charge the
(04:29):
Light Brigade, and which he referred to the soldiers in
their red coats as the thin red line holding back
the wave of attacking Russians in this war, and this
came to symbolize defenders who stand between peace and chaos. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Now, over time the idea was appropriated to represent the
similar stance that police take and putting themselves in harms
way to maintain civil order and peace.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So again it was kind of just a saying. It
was a thing that people said. The thin Blue Line
was the thing that they said. But in two thousand fourteen,
then college student Andrew Jacob created a company called Thin
Blue Line USA, and they created the now widely recognized
logo that is sort of now just called the Thin
Blue Line, which is a black and white version of
(05:13):
the American flag. American flag is usually red, white, and
blue the stars and stripes, and this one is all
black and white, in which the only color is the
color blue, which takes the place of one of the
white stripes, usually the one just below the stars. So
if you see a black and white flag, but there
is a blue line running below the stars, that's the
thin Blue Line flag created by the Thin Blue Line
(05:36):
USA company.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, and some have argued that the black and white
colors of the flag in this arrangement represent chaos and anarchy,
and that the line represents the brave defenders who hold
back against it. It's also, I think really important to
note that like, by definition, any sort of like alteration
of the American flag is supposed to be a criminal
or unconstitutional. And so the fact that you see anything
(05:59):
that is the flag that's not the red, white and
blue and stripes, like if it's like on somebody's bikini,
or if it's different colors like that by itself is
like supposed to be unconstitutional, which is a whole different conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It is, and it is kind of ironic. And the
thing that holds us back from ads is the thin
ad line and then it and the ads get through nice. Nice.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
They call it the thin green line.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Oh my god, yes, very good.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Because of money. I don't know if you all understood that,
but it was because of money.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yes, because of money, Because Shane said, because of money,
that means we're back. And so somewhere in there was
an advertisement that happened. But okay, so we're talking about
the idea of the Thin Blue Line. The guy who
sort of who founded this company, Andrew Jacob, he maintains
that this was always intended to represent peace and support
(06:56):
of law enforcement full stop. That was like, the values
he espoused publicly are that this is supposed to be
just supportive law enforcement. And I think there was a
story I read where he maybe attended the funeral of
a copy who had died in the line of duty,
and so he was sort of seeing this as like,
you know, I want to have this symbol to represent
(07:16):
I really feel for these people who were out there
doing this job. And so that was sort of the idea.
And most law enforcement and generally pro authoritarian leaning organizations
also claim that the Thin Blue Line is a political
It is not meant to have political affiliation. It's just
meant to show for support for law enforcement and it's
meant to inspire peace. That's their idea.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Sure, I mean, but you had a specific experience going
on their website, didn't you.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
True. Yeah, while I was reading about this, I also
found a bunch of ads like these are multiple different
ads for gun holsters that the entire holster was the
thin blue like flag. So I guess piece is out
the window.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Sure, I think if you are espousing piece and advertising weaponry, like,
that's probably not quite not quite there.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
My friends, this original Iron Man I guess company was
doing that. They're like peace through violence.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly, peace through advancement and technology
in the warfare or whatever he said. He said something
like that. I was like, oh, yeah, that's okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
That's very much like Trump's. Trump's whole thing too is
peace through violence, peace through genocide. And I'm like, those
are those are contradictory terms.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's very nineteen eighty four. Now.
Others argue that the thin blue line seems to represent
a line of silence in the many documented cases of
police brutality and the lack of accountability for brutality, racism,
and violence.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah so, I mean that's that is an argument people
have made, is send like the thin blue line instead
represents protecting people from accountability when they do things that
are clearly unlawful, when they target people because of the race,
when they are overly aggressive beyond what the circumstances might
call for. And importantly is how the thin Blue line
flag has been used, has been flown at Trump rallies
(09:02):
slash white supremacist rallies. It has been flown alongside Confederate flags,
which are deliberately flown to represent the slavery and racism.
It's been flown alongside swastika's or had swastikas embedded into
the thin blue line flag. Like there was a version
of the thin blue line flag that has the thin
blue line come in, take a ninety degree angle and
(09:23):
go down and the rest of the thin blue line
is like as like part of a swastika. Like you
can clearly see the swastika in the imagery, and it
has been adopted by domestic terrorist hate groups such as
the Proud Boys. So like whether or not that was
the intention, that is the alignment that it has found
itself with. That is where it's also being employed heavily
(09:45):
heavily employed and becoming representative of that stance, which I
mean anything could be co opted by anybody, but like
clearly something resonated with that to those groups.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, and Jacob's the owner of the company, disavows some
of the racist uses of the flags, citing that it
is a cause for unity, like the idea saying like,
oh no, no, it's not what it's about. Most of
the time. It's supposed to be about bringing people together
and about peace. But you know, it's fine that they're
still buying my things and still making me money because
they're still buying my things, even if they are terrible,
(10:17):
you know.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, And that's not to say that he specifically endorses
any of them. He just like he's disavowed some of them.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Some of them, Yeah, some of them, which that should
not be a difficult conversation.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
It should be all of them. But you know, yeah,
we as a podcast disavow all affiliations with any and
all authoritarian Nazi Yeah, those groups, all those groups. Yeah,
see how easy that was. There's any we missed, throw
them in the bucket. If they are a domestic terrorist,
heyite group, then we do not support their efforts or
there we say them all right. Yeah, And like furthermore,
(10:51):
like there are professors who say, like it kind of
like whatever the intention was the flag, it is actively
being used to create an US versus them mentality. Yeah,
whether or not it was supposed to inspire unity, whether
or not it was supposed to inspire piece, it is
being used to inspire division. It is being used to
create discord.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Right, And at this point, it seems likely that most
people who adopt this iconography are aware of the controversy
and specifically select this icon to symbolically say you you,
you deserve to be brutalized to anyone who might be
harmed by police. Like there's so much of a value
of just trying to troll and upset people and to
be confrontational for no reason. Among the group of people
(11:34):
that would put this on their vehicles or fly these flags,
Like there's so much of a just an antagonistic viewpoint
that like they've got to be aware of it, and
they're for sure doing it just to get a rise
out of people.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I mean, the controversy is like widely widely known and understood,
and I could believe that there are people who are
less familiar and they see it and they're like, oh,
this supports law enforcement. Okay, I'll get one of those.
That's great, But like the over majority of people, I believe,
and I could be very wrong, Like I don't have
data to back this up, but I really think that
like you are probably somewhat aware of the controversy, if
(12:10):
not intimately aware, and then you chose that you chose,
and you put it up because you're like, I want
to piss you off. I want to say I hope
the cops take you down, like they're on my side,
I'm on their side. We are against you. And again,
that's using it as division, that's using it as hate.
It's using it to spark anger and resentment and feelings
(12:30):
in people. And like, that's the way it's being used,
whether or not you feel like that's what its intentions were,
that is how it's being used. Yeah, and there may
be some amount of people who also choose it because
they're ingratiating themselves to police and they're sort of saying, hey,
take it easy, I'm on your side, because of course
there are sides existing in the first place, and that
could be some inspiration. But yeah, that is how it's
(12:53):
being used. And I do think there are going to
be people who are somewhat innocent about it, but I
think most people are doing this as a choice.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
I want to unpack that, like, tak it easy, I'm
on your side viewpoint in understanding that you understand that
you're trying to appease police officers and trying to avoid
some level of coercion and punishment from a system. Yeah,
like that tells us everything that you need to know.
You're going no, no, no, no, no, please don't, And that
should speak volumes to your viewpoint. Even if you are
(13:19):
supportive of police, that should speak volumes to your viewpoint
about how you view the police, which is oftentimes a coercive,
violent group of people who are trying to take you down,
who are trying to hurt you, who are trying to
take money from you, who are trying to brutalize you
in different ways, and will brutalize you in more ways
if you're a different color. So of course, not all
of them. Like I had a local police officer that
(13:41):
taught me how to ride a bike and he was
a lovely person. But the system at largest and we
know that, and ingratiating yourselves to them suggests that you
know that there's a problem.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
That's like a really good point. It's like by saying like, hey,
don't shoot, I'm on your side, you're sort of saying
like you have to be afraid to make that claim
in the first place, So you're sort of inadvertently admitting
the problem by trying to avoid the problem from arising. Yeah,
and I think again, I think that people know this.
I think that the vast majority of people know this.
(14:12):
They'll pretend that they don't, they'll say that they don't,
they'll say that that's not true. But I mean, if
you really search your soul about this, you know, you
know that this is the situation that's going on. And
I'll be fair and say that, like I have done
a lot of work personally to make sure that I
see all people as people and to look at this
as a system's problem, and that I don't think that
(14:34):
we should be killing anyone police or otherwise or other
humans at all. So like I'm not in favor of
any aspect of violence that people do to one another.
And so I think that like where I actually come
down on this or I guess it doesn't even kind
of matter. But like, again, the fact of the matter
here is that like this is a symbol that has
(14:56):
come to represent and inspire divisiveness, which has led to violence.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, and that's exactly it. It's inspired more violence even
against police while claiming to support peace. So like we've
seen that happen. I mean, January sixth is a perfect example,
like where was the thin Blue line supporters of that
time when when the police officers were killed? So like
here we've got the situation where it no longer represents
what it was espoused to mean, Like it no longer
represents what it was originally intended to mean, for the
(15:23):
same reasons that the swastika does not mean what it
was originally intended to mean anymore. So I think it's
really important to keep that in mind as you start
to kind of unpack this and think about what symbolism
means and how it shifts and how it evolves given
certain context, and how things like this get co opted
by people who have more nefarious views.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I actually think that there are going to be a
lot of police who are, like I am not on
the side of those people who are super pro Nazi,
who are like in these hate groups, and like they
would arrest them for doing any kind of violence or
criminal things just as fast as they might arrest anyone
and understanding that like those people have co opt did
that signed to mean something? Right? And you know, I
(16:04):
think that there is a there's an element of vigilante
justice also that they sort of feel like they're taking
on by using that iconography. But right anyway, So yeah,
that's the history of the thin Blue line. That's how
it's currently being used. And again, like as I said,
people are going to disagree with me, and I'm like
to think like it just it just is like whether
or not that's how you how you mean it. People
(16:25):
are flying that flag at white supremacist rallies they are right, like,
that's just the thing that's happening. Like nobody's flying a
Bernie Sanders flag and a white supremacist rally, right, and
nobody's flying thin blue line flags at Bernie Sanders rallies
like you do. You see them in very clearly delineated
spaces where you have people who are like pro authoritarian
government takeover and white supremacists and racism and hatred and
(16:46):
bigotry and war flying that flag and you have people
on the other side who are who don't fly that flag.
Like though, that's just like whether or not that's what
you want it to mean, that's what's currently happening.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
There's something about say, do correspondence to say here, you know,
like they're saying they want peace and they're at the
most violent crowds. So here we are well.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
We've gone very long for a many Maybe we should
have just made this a full length discussion, but that's
what we have to say right now about the thin
blue line. If you have things you like to say
about this, we do accept constructive criticism. You can email
us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. If you
want to say hateful, nonsensical things, then I'll simply ignore you,
so that's fine, but don't bother with it. If you
have something nice to saying, you like to provide constructive
(17:25):
criticism or just tell us we did such a good job,
you can email us at that email adjuss I just
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We can also like subscribe to leave a rating and
review and tell a friend and then thank you so
much to my team of people writing in fact checking
(17:46):
from Shane and myself. Thank you for recording with me today. Shane,
Thank you for having me our social media coordin is
Emma Wilson, and our audio engineer who is going to
have to cut this one to shreds to make it
make sense is Justin. Thank you for doing your awesome work, Justin.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
And thank you for being sohuch handsome.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Indeed, is there anything that I miss or you'd like
to add before we wrap this one up?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
No? I think that covers it for this one, all right?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Perfect? Then Why We Do What We Do Mini is out.
Bye peace. You've been listening to Why We Do What
We Do.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
You can learn more about this and other episodes by
going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
we hope you have an awesome day
You're listening to why we do what we do. Welcome
to why we do what we do? Mini. I'm your
host Abraham, and I'm your host Shane. I've decided there's
a way that I say Mini, whenever I introduced this.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I love it. I fully support it. I have noticed that,
and I'm like, that's great.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
that humans and non human animals do, and on Mondays
we release these short formed episodes that are like ten
fifteen minutes long where we just dig into a topic
and then we get out of there and let you
go about your day. We are out of Halloween Spooky
season month, which is always a bittersweet goodbye, but it
(00:52):
gives us time to prepare some new wonderful Halloween content
for next year. In the meantime, we'll resume our sort
of normal mini topics. It's just sort of struck me.
I've seen this around a lot, so I decided we're
going to talk about the thin blue line. So that
is our topic for this many today.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
And if you're not familiar with the thin blue line,
it is a symbol that is supposed to represent support
of law enforcement. So you've probably seen it. It's usually
like a black and white American flag with like a
really thin blue line right in the middle of it.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yes, we'll describe the design and all of that, but
before we dig into our topic here, i'd like to say,
if you're joining us for the first time, welcome. We
hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you're a turning listener,
then welcome back. We're really happy either way, however you
found us. If you would like to support us, you
can join us on Patreon, leave us a rating or review,
like subscribe, tell a friend, and of course just keep
listening to episodes. Is really great. Yeah, if you feel
(01:43):
like this one particularly resonates, then definitely share it with
people who maybe need to hear it. Although we'll brace
ourselves with the impact of the hate mail we might get.
But I think that that is what we have to
say before we dive into our topic here. And I
do want to try and preface this by saying that
we are are going to try and present this as
objectively and as charitably as we can. Yea, but also
(02:07):
like we're gonna call a spade a spade, We're gonna
be real about the situation that we're dealing with Hereah. So,
as you said, Shane, then the idea of the thin
blue line is that it's meant to represent support of
law enforcement. That I think is the crux of the
foundation for the idea here is what most people who
are sporting this logo or who say this phrase, or
(02:31):
who employ this idea because it sort of started as
a phrase before it was a logo, that's what they
mean by it is that they're just indicating solidary and
support of law enforcement more broadly. But it's also like,
it's just a fact that the thin Blue line iconography
and symbolism and the saying itself has become very politically charged.
(02:54):
It has become a divisive symbol, and it has been
used to inspire controversy and conflict even while it sits
there trying to appear noble and innocent. And I know
that people who who wear those and support them are
going to say, well, that's not what it means. And
I'm like, it's fine for that to not mean that
to you, but that is what it means to some
people like that. That's just what it is, and that's
(03:17):
not how it's being used, and it's not how it's
generally being used. It's very important.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, So we're going to discuss the history of the
thin blue line, what it purports, the mean, and what
makes it controversial.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
All right, So, the thin blue line is a phrase
associated with police because the color of their uniforms is
commonly blue, and therefore blue represents the police. This is
like a menonym for police. You'll see other employment of
blue as a menonym for police, as in Blue Bloods,
Boys in Blue, Blue Knights, k n I g HTS
(03:47):
Back the Blue, Men in Blue and Blue Lives Matter,
as like an aspect of how this shows up in
the a similar space. Really, Yeah, and most sources agree
that this is likely. It likely refers to the thin
Red Line, which was a Scottish regiment of British soldiers
wearing red uniforms who were badly outnumbered by by attacking
(04:08):
Russian forces during the Crimean War in a eighteen fifty
four battle. Yeah, so I think it was something like
twenty five hundred against nine hundred or something like. They
were very outnumbered the Scottish British forces. They held the
ground against the attacks and they were immortalized in a
poem by Lord Tennyson. The poem was called Charge the
(04:29):
Light Brigade, and which he referred to the soldiers in
their red coats as the thin red line holding back
the wave of attacking Russians in this war, and this
came to symbolize defenders who stand between peace and chaos. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Now, over time the idea was appropriated to represent the
similar stance that police take and putting themselves in harms
way to maintain civil order and peace.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So again it was kind of just a saying. It
was a thing that people said. The thin Blue Line
was the thing that they said. But in two thousand fourteen,
then college student Andrew Jacob created a company called Thin
Blue Line USA, and they created the now widely recognized
logo that is sort of now just called the Thin
Blue Line, which is a black and white version of
(05:13):
the American flag. American flag is usually red, white, and
blue the stars and stripes, and this one is all
black and white, in which the only color is the
color blue, which takes the place of one of the
white stripes, usually the one just below the stars. So
if you see a black and white flag, but there
is a blue line running below the stars, that's the
thin Blue Line flag created by the Thin Blue Line
(05:36):
USA company.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, and some have argued that the black and white
colors of the flag in this arrangement represent chaos and anarchy,
and that the line represents the brave defenders who hold
back against it. It's also, I think really important to
note that like, by definition, any sort of like alteration
of the American flag is supposed to be a criminal
or unconstitutional. And so the fact that you see anything
(05:59):
that is the flag that's not the red, white and
blue and stripes, like if it's like on somebody's bikini,
or if it's different colors like that by itself is
like supposed to be unconstitutional, which is a whole different conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It is, and it is kind of ironic. And the
thing that holds us back from ads is the thin
ad line and then it and the ads get through nice. Nice.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
They call it the thin green line.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Oh my god, yes, very good.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Because of money. I don't know if you all understood that,
but it was because of money.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yes, because of money, Because Shane said, because of money,
that means we're back. And so somewhere in there was
an advertisement that happened. But okay, so we're talking about
the idea of the Thin Blue Line. The guy who
sort of who founded this company, Andrew Jacob, he maintains
that this was always intended to represent peace and support
(06:56):
of law enforcement full stop. That was like, the values
he espoused publicly are that this is supposed to be
just supportive law enforcement. And I think there was a
story I read where he maybe attended the funeral of
a copy who had died in the line of duty,
and so he was sort of seeing this as like,
you know, I want to have this symbol to represent
(07:16):
I really feel for these people who were out there
doing this job. And so that was sort of the idea.
And most law enforcement and generally pro authoritarian leaning organizations
also claim that the Thin Blue Line is a political
It is not meant to have political affiliation. It's just
meant to show for support for law enforcement and it's
meant to inspire peace. That's their idea.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Sure, I mean, but you had a specific experience going
on their website, didn't you.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
True. Yeah, while I was reading about this, I also
found a bunch of ads like these are multiple different
ads for gun holsters that the entire holster was the
thin blue like flag. So I guess piece is out
the window.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Sure, I think if you are espousing piece and advertising weaponry, like,
that's probably not quite not quite there.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
My friends, this original Iron Man I guess company was
doing that. They're like peace through violence.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly, peace through advancement and technology
in the warfare or whatever he said. He said something
like that. I was like, oh, yeah, that's okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
That's very much like Trump's. Trump's whole thing too is
peace through violence, peace through genocide. And I'm like, those
are those are contradictory terms.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's very nineteen eighty four. Now.
Others argue that the thin blue line seems to represent
a line of silence in the many documented cases of
police brutality and the lack of accountability for brutality, racism,
and violence.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah so, I mean that's that is an argument people
have made, is send like the thin blue line instead
represents protecting people from accountability when they do things that
are clearly unlawful, when they target people because of the race,
when they are overly aggressive beyond what the circumstances might
call for. And importantly is how the thin Blue line
flag has been used, has been flown at Trump rallies
(09:02):
slash white supremacist rallies. It has been flown alongside Confederate flags,
which are deliberately flown to represent the slavery and racism.
It's been flown alongside swastika's or had swastikas embedded into
the thin blue line flag. Like there was a version
of the thin blue line flag that has the thin
blue line come in, take a ninety degree angle and
(09:23):
go down and the rest of the thin blue line
is like as like part of a swastika. Like you
can clearly see the swastika in the imagery, and it
has been adopted by domestic terrorist hate groups such as
the Proud Boys. So like whether or not that was
the intention, that is the alignment that it has found
itself with. That is where it's also being employed heavily
(09:45):
heavily employed and becoming representative of that stance, which I
mean anything could be co opted by anybody, but like
clearly something resonated with that to those groups.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, and Jacob's the owner of the company, disavows some
of the racist uses of the flags, citing that it
is a cause for unity, like the idea saying like,
oh no, no, it's not what it's about. Most of
the time. It's supposed to be about bringing people together
and about peace. But you know, it's fine that they're
still buying my things and still making me money because
they're still buying my things, even if they are terrible,
(10:17):
you know.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, And that's not to say that he specifically endorses
any of them. He just like he's disavowed some of them.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Some of them, Yeah, some of them, which that should
not be a difficult conversation.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
It should be all of them. But you know, yeah,
we as a podcast disavow all affiliations with any and
all authoritarian Nazi Yeah, those groups, all those groups. Yeah,
see how easy that was. There's any we missed, throw
them in the bucket. If they are a domestic terrorist,
heyite group, then we do not support their efforts or
there we say them all right. Yeah, And like furthermore,
(10:51):
like there are professors who say, like it kind of
like whatever the intention was the flag, it is actively
being used to create an US versus them mentality. Yeah,
whether or not it was supposed to inspire unity, whether
or not it was supposed to inspire piece, it is
being used to inspire division. It is being used to
create discord.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Right, And at this point, it seems likely that most
people who adopt this iconography are aware of the controversy
and specifically select this icon to symbolically say you you,
you deserve to be brutalized to anyone who might be
harmed by police. Like there's so much of a value
of just trying to troll and upset people and to
be confrontational for no reason. Among the group of people
(11:34):
that would put this on their vehicles or fly these flags,
Like there's so much of a just an antagonistic viewpoint
that like they've got to be aware of it, and
they're for sure doing it just to get a rise
out of people.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I mean, the controversy is like widely widely known and understood,
and I could believe that there are people who are
less familiar and they see it and they're like, oh,
this supports law enforcement. Okay, I'll get one of those.
That's great, But like the over majority of people, I believe,
and I could be very wrong, Like I don't have
data to back this up, but I really think that
like you are probably somewhat aware of the controversy, if
(12:10):
not intimately aware, and then you chose that you chose,
and you put it up because you're like, I want
to piss you off. I want to say I hope
the cops take you down, like they're on my side,
I'm on their side. We are against you. And again,
that's using it as division, that's using it as hate.
It's using it to spark anger and resentment and feelings
(12:30):
in people. And like, that's the way it's being used,
whether or not you feel like that's what its intentions were,
that is how it's being used. Yeah, and there may
be some amount of people who also choose it because
they're ingratiating themselves to police and they're sort of saying, hey,
take it easy, I'm on your side, because of course
there are sides existing in the first place, and that
could be some inspiration. But yeah, that is how it's
(12:53):
being used. And I do think there are going to
be people who are somewhat innocent about it, but I
think most people are doing this as a choice.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
I want to unpack that, like, tak it easy, I'm
on your side viewpoint in understanding that you understand that
you're trying to appease police officers and trying to avoid
some level of coercion and punishment from a system. Yeah,
like that tells us everything that you need to know.
You're going no, no, no, no, no, please don't, And that
should speak volumes to your viewpoint. Even if you are
(13:19):
supportive of police, that should speak volumes to your viewpoint
about how you view the police, which is oftentimes a coercive,
violent group of people who are trying to take you down,
who are trying to hurt you, who are trying to
take money from you, who are trying to brutalize you
in different ways, and will brutalize you in more ways
if you're a different color. So of course, not all
of them. Like I had a local police officer that
(13:41):
taught me how to ride a bike and he was
a lovely person. But the system at largest and we
know that, and ingratiating yourselves to them suggests that you
know that there's a problem.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
That's like a really good point. It's like by saying like, hey,
don't shoot, I'm on your side, you're sort of saying
like you have to be afraid to make that claim
in the first place, So you're sort of inadvertently admitting
the problem by trying to avoid the problem from arising. Yeah,
and I think again, I think that people know this.
I think that the vast majority of people know this.
(14:12):
They'll pretend that they don't, they'll say that they don't,
they'll say that that's not true. But I mean, if
you really search your soul about this, you know, you
know that this is the situation that's going on. And
I'll be fair and say that, like I have done
a lot of work personally to make sure that I
see all people as people and to look at this
as a system's problem, and that I don't think that
(14:34):
we should be killing anyone police or otherwise or other
humans at all. So like I'm not in favor of
any aspect of violence that people do to one another.
And so I think that like where I actually come
down on this or I guess it doesn't even kind
of matter. But like, again, the fact of the matter
here is that like this is a symbol that has
(14:56):
come to represent and inspire divisiveness, which has led to violence.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, and that's exactly it. It's inspired more violence even
against police while claiming to support peace. So like we've
seen that happen. I mean, January sixth is a perfect example,
like where was the thin Blue line supporters of that
time when when the police officers were killed? So like
here we've got the situation where it no longer represents
what it was espoused to mean, Like it no longer
represents what it was originally intended to mean, for the
(15:23):
same reasons that the swastika does not mean what it
was originally intended to mean anymore. So I think it's
really important to keep that in mind as you start
to kind of unpack this and think about what symbolism
means and how it shifts and how it evolves given
certain context, and how things like this get co opted
by people who have more nefarious views.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I actually think that there are going to be a
lot of police who are, like I am not on
the side of those people who are super pro Nazi,
who are like in these hate groups, and like they
would arrest them for doing any kind of violence or
criminal things just as fast as they might arrest anyone
and understanding that like those people have co opt did
that signed to mean something? Right? And you know, I
(16:04):
think that there is a there's an element of vigilante
justice also that they sort of feel like they're taking
on by using that iconography. But right anyway, So yeah,
that's the history of the thin Blue line. That's how
it's currently being used. And again, like as I said,
people are going to disagree with me, and I'm like
to think like it just it just is like whether
or not that's how you how you mean it. People
(16:25):
are flying that flag at white supremacist rallies they are right, like,
that's just the thing that's happening. Like nobody's flying a
Bernie Sanders flag and a white supremacist rally, right, and
nobody's flying thin blue line flags at Bernie Sanders rallies
like you do. You see them in very clearly delineated
spaces where you have people who are like pro authoritarian
government takeover and white supremacists and racism and hatred and
(16:46):
bigotry and war flying that flag and you have people
on the other side who are who don't fly that flag.
Like though, that's just like whether or not that's what
you want it to mean, that's what's currently happening.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
There's something about say, do correspondence to say here, you know,
like they're saying they want peace and they're at the
most violent crowds. So here we are well.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
We've gone very long for a many Maybe we should
have just made this a full length discussion, but that's
what we have to say right now about the thin
blue line. If you have things you like to say
about this, we do accept constructive criticism. You can email
us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. If you
want to say hateful, nonsensical things, then I'll simply ignore you,
so that's fine, but don't bother with it. If you
have something nice to saying, you like to provide constructive
(17:25):
criticism or just tell us we did such a good job,
you can email us at that email adjuss I just
gave you. You can also reach us on the social media platforms.
If you like to support us, you can join us
on Patreon. You get ad free content, bonus content early episodes,
join a very cool group of people, and I will
read your name at the end of full length discussions.
We can also like subscribe to leave a rating and
review and tell a friend and then thank you so
much to my team of people writing in fact checking
(17:46):
from Shane and myself. Thank you for recording with me today. Shane,
Thank you for having me our social media coordin is
Emma Wilson, and our audio engineer who is going to
have to cut this one to shreds to make it
make sense is Justin. Thank you for doing your awesome work, Justin.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
And thank you for being sohuch handsome.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Indeed, is there anything that I miss or you'd like
to add before we wrap this one up?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
No? I think that covers it for this one, all right?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Perfect? Then Why We Do What We Do Mini is out.
Bye peace. You've been listening to Why We Do What
We Do.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
You can learn more about this and other episodes by
going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
we hope you have an awesome day
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