Models of Disability

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
to Why We Do what we do. I am your
accessible host, Abraham, and I am.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Your words Matter host Shane.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
that humans and non human animals do. I've maybe been
an accessible host before, but it doesn't really matter who's
keeping score, not me anyway, we talk about psychology type stuff.
That's what we do. And turns out that we accidentally
started doing a suite of topics each year. So a

(00:44):
couple of years ago we did like seven or eight
or nine episodes I don't know, something like that on
applied behavior analysis. Last year we did a whole suite
of episodes on addiction, and this year we are sort
of ending the year with a suite of episodes on
disability and accessibility issues. I don't really plan to have

(01:04):
the minis following suit, Like, I don't think most of
the minis will be on topic with that, at least
not the entire time. Maybe sometimes well I'd be like, oh,
we really need a mini on this thing, and we'll
throw it in there, But that's not the plan. Maybe
none of them will be related, right, the full length
episodes that we release on Wednesdays. These are going to
be the way that we're going to approach this for

(01:24):
a few weeks. Is that? And and to be clear,
like for the vast majority of this, these episodes stand
on their own. Yes, It's just that we have a
lot of things to say about a particular topic, and
so we plan out, like, let's do an episode on
this aspect of that topic, an episode on this aspect,
and they could have been spread over like many months

(01:45):
or years if we wanted it to do it that way,
but it felt like like, let's just do them all
at once, Like we're sort of on a streak. We
have a lot of these in our minds. Let's just
like write and record these all sort of at once.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, And that's how we end up with, you know,
multiple multiple episodes are around the same topic, but like
you said, they can stand alone. And today we are
going to cover models of disability to kind of like
really kick off this suite of episodes. So hopefully this
will kind of lay some groundwork for everybody to kind
of get an idea of kind of how people talk
about disability, how people think about disability, and maybe some
ways that we can you know, maybe evolve a little

(02:19):
bit in this space.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
I do think this is going to be a passionate
episode one with some emotions and expletives, some expletives here
and there. I'm excited to record it. I'm excited for
you all to hear it. If you are joining us
for the first time, then welcome. I hope that you
enjoy what you hear today and that you're here. We go.
We're looking for some stuff on disabilities. Yeah, we have
a lot of episodes now. I'm not even going to

(02:41):
try and brief on the topics we have covered because
we have been doing this podcast for coming up on
nine years now, which is a long time, so we
have quite quite I know it's quite the catalog to
go check out. But if you're joining us for the
first time, I'm really glad you found your way here.
If you're a returning listener, then thank you for coming back.
Either way, If you'd like to support us, you can
join us on Patreon, pick up some merged like subscribe, believe,

(03:04):
rating and review, tell a friend, and probably something else.
But those are things you can do. I'll talk more
about that at the end of the discussion. But if
you're listening to this on the day that it publishes.
Then remember remember the fifth of November. Because it is
November fifth. That means that it is Guy Fox Day,
which is why I said that rhyme.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yes, it is. It certainly is. It's also American Football Day,
which feels like the opposite of what Guy Fox does.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
It feels like the opposite of a lot of what's
gonna happen? Y. Yeah, yeah, it is a bank transfer day. Sure,
it's Commercial TV broadcast Day. That kind of makes sense.
For American Football Day. It is firewood Day. Ooh.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
I like that. It's International Stress Awareness Day. Jokes on you.
I'm aware of it all the time.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Very good. You can ignore it because it is National
block it out.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Day, or you can eat about it because it's National
don't Day.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Which makes a lot of sense because it is also
National Eating Healthy Day.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Mmm. I like that something you don't eat is anything
related to guns. So today's National gunpowder Day.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Wow, Okay, National Love your Red Hair Day. If you
don't love your red hair, you shall not love it.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
I've got a couple of those. It's actually today's Abraham's
Least favorite holiday, which is Play Monopoly Day.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
You would you would think you would be higher up
there for me, but it's you know, when you're passionate
about something you like, you dislike the bad things about
it even more than other people.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, yeah, so loving board games means not loving Monopoly.
It is World Tsunami Awareness Day.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
It certainly is. It's Drowsy Driving Prevention Week.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Let's give Wildlife a break week b r ak e
mm hmm. It's National fig Week, National Medical Cannabis Week.
That's fine, love that, and it is Polar Bear Week.
Very fun. Okay, but we don't just talk about holidays.
But we're like, you know, it does this. When we
publish episodes, they come out on a day, and that

(05:12):
day has got some random stuff going on, and maybe
people who listen to this episode are like intimately familiar
with that random stuff. So we're just going to shout
out those things. Yeah, and it also is just it
just feels like a fun thing to do.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Of course that's not what we're talking about, because we
already said what we're talking about, which is models of disability,
and so I think that we're ready to dive into this.
Is there anything that I am missing or that you'd
like to add before we address our topic du jour.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
We usually say at the end, but I feel like
if anybody has any comments, thoughts, questions, like anything they
want to share ahead of time, like or like when
you listen to this, please by all means reach out
to us, like this is going to be an ongoing
I think a complex discussion given the topic itself and
like the number of topics we're going to cover, So
please feel free to reach out and have a discussion
with us, because we would love to hear from you. Sure.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Email is directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. I've
been having some fun email exchanges with some listterns and
it's so like, yeah, get on there more also on
the social media platforms, so you can reach us there.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Okay, let's go ahead and dive into this. Then, if
you live long enough, you will have a disability or
an impairment. We'll get to that later. It's basically a guarantee, like,
if you live long enough, you will it will happen. Yeah,
it should go without saying. But because we now live
in an increasingly fascist country slash world, which famously hates
people with disabilities, we are going to give away our

(06:37):
position now that people with disabilities are freaking people who
deserve to be treated like people.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
It's not hard.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
That's our position is we treat people like people. We
treat them with respect and dignity and compassion, and we
will try and protect them from people who would do otherwise. So, yeah,
people disabilities, they deserve all the rights, protections, guarantees, rese sources, accommodations,
and opportunities that would be afforded to anyone. So you'll
see how that aligns with one of the models of

(07:07):
disability that we'll describe as we get into this. But
that's giving away our position a little early, and we'll
come back around to that at the end. We are
going to take a as much as possible nuanced objective
approach to discussing each of these, and we'll also try
and like weigh in on what are the arguments for
and against the different well at least for the different models,

(07:29):
and why people see them that way.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
But yeah, yeah, and so we the two of us,
do most of our work in a disability space. So
it feels a propose to a propos apple propos apropos,
as I'm saying, a propos I only care apropos to
take on a deep, multi part discussion. And so in
the best way we think we could think of the
kick off the series of discussions about disability specifically is

(07:53):
to clearly enumerate and describe how disability has been conceptualized.
And that's I think we got to start there, to
lay some ground war.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah, I mean it'll be foundational to further discussions that
we have. Now, as I said, all of these episodes
will stand on their own, but I do think you'll
have a better understanding of the subsequent topics we address
if we have a clear understanding of where different people
are coming from as it relates to disability. So we're
going to list in this episode, in this discussion, we're

(08:22):
going to list the models of disability, what they mean,
and the implications that they have for people with disabilities
and people without disabilities to be real.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, and so let's go ahead and get into it.
Like we like to define our terms, So let's start
with a brief definition or briefish right, Yeah, So models
of disability can be thought of as a set of values, goals, inclusion, criterion,
and prescribed actions that people have about the spectrum of
human conditions that entail lacking the ability to participate in
some quote unquote normal activities. Now that's going to be

(08:53):
coming from a different place. We don't generally say normal
activities because what is by any means normal activity, But
that's usually what they're looking at here.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Right, Yeah, And that's why we say it with you know,
quotes around it is to indicate that what that means
is it's a questionable way to refer to it. Yeah,
but yeah, I think that's exactly it is. Understanding, Like
what are models of disability, they'd like ways of thinking
about what that of disability is.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
They're like frameworks.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, it's sort of a framework, but it has really
important implications for what there is to do about it.
So in each of these will sort of break down
the core concepts, we'll talk through it and then then
you should have like a clear understanding of what they are.
I hope if we do a good job.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
So this includes how we think about disability, how we
think society does or should react to and think about disability,
what can or should be done about disability, and what
even a disability is.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, and these models kind of exist on a timeline.
Although most or all of them are still around today
in one form or another. There spend shifts and nuances
and advancements and refinements and stuff like that, so you'll
see that a little bit too.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
But importantly want to make sure it's clear that, like
when we talk about models of disability, these are not
like clubs you sign up for when you think you
agree with one or more than the other. These models
are just ways to categorize how people have approached disability
in the past, how they approach it today. There's not
super clear distinct black and white boundaries between these. These

(10:22):
are not things that exist in the world. That's just
a framework for like thinking about how have people talked
about this in the past, how do they talk about
it now? What is the sort of way that we
approach and think about this, And so just trying to
make sure I'm making it clear that, like the these
are concepts that we're talking about, right, It's like ideas

(10:45):
about ideas. So I just don't want people to think, like, oh,
I think I'm this model of disability and you might
be like that could be a thing, but like just
knowing that, like the lines between them aren't clearly drawn
lines that have like firm boundaries. They're just ideas about ideas,
so their their concepts.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, so the most commonly sided discussion about the models
of disability prescribed that three models have emerged over time, moral, medical,
and social. And if note others proposed more or different models,
we'll come back to that. But we're really going to
focus on moral, medical, and social at the three models
of our discussion today.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
And we will probably not talk about the advertisement model.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Oh, which is the worst model? Maybe?

Speaker 1 (11:35):
All right, we're back maybe the I don't know if
it's the worst model. The first model is pretty horrid
one I hope that most people don't agree with. But
we shall find our way there, I guess. Anyway, all right,
so we're back. Let's go ahead and dig into it. So, yeah,
the three models of disability will be discussing the primary
models that have been described in sort of academic circles, moral, medical,

(11:56):
and social. So we'll start with the moral model. And
again this is sort of a time line thing. So
the moral model seems to represent or it really represented,
the primary only way of thinking about disabilities for most
of human history, like if people talked about them, if
they thought about them the way that they were approached
the vast majority of the time up until about the

(12:18):
nineteen seventies, like somewhere in the mid nineteen hundreds, but
around the nineteen seventies you had essentially the moral model
of thinking about disabilities. And that's not to say that
there was no instance where that wasn't the case, but
it was primarily the case the way that people approach
to disabilities.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, and so the core concepts of the moral model
include the following. First, disability is a thing that is
different from quote unquote normal. Disability happens for a reason,
good or bad, usually bad. Therefore, there is little or
nothing that can be done or should be done about disability.
And the third is that the solution to disability is
stop having a disability or tough you're stuck with it.

(12:57):
It's gross.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah. Yeah, that's basically the position. This model primarily sees
disability as bad and something for which blame because it
needs blame. I guess can be placed on the individual
or the individual plus people in their orbit, parents and community,
that sort of thing. So it's like, your disability is
your fault or your parent's fault or both, it's your

(13:22):
community's fault. Like you have a bad thing that happened
to you and you deserve it. That's that's basically the approach, right.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
And so the moral model treats disability and impairment as
one of the same, essentially that you are quote different
from quote normal in any way that makes you in
some cases quote more than others and in most cases
quote lesser. Ugh, it's just awful. It's an awful way
to think about people. As model's disability as being justly
deserved as well, which is just also like feels real bad.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, yeah it, as you might hear in this this
model often not always, but often has a pretty religious foundation.
Of course, I'm an I guess. Yeah, so it might
be seen as divine punishment, divine intervention, divine retribution, having

(14:14):
some origin in divinity, meaning imparted onto that person by
like the universe or God, you know, insert deific thought here.
But yeah, that's that's sort of the idea here is
the foundation has this like this has been handed down
to you, and therefore it's yours. You deserve it.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
I wish so desperately that I was surprised by that,
but I am absolutely not, which is like I think
just so telling Yeah, of course there's that foundation there, Like,
who would be surprised? Yeah, So now, disability and impairment
are punishment for thoughts, feelings, or deeds according this model,
and can be a clear sign that you are guilty

(14:58):
of wrongdoing. This course with the quote just world hypothesis
that views all events as fair and that all people
get what they deserve.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah. Yes, Like people who rise to power, no matter
how much you may disagree with them, they deserve to
be there because they got there, so that happens. People
who have terrible things happen to them. It doesn't matter
if they were good or pious or anything like. Clearly
they deserve to have that happen. So the fact that
they end up with a disability means they earned it.
That's theirs, they should have it like that. That's sort

(15:28):
of the idea here. Yeah, And of course some do
see it the opposite way, in terms of it not
being a punishment, but that the disability is actually a gift.
It might be viewed as a sign that God has
such faith in you that you can persist and even
find strength even with a disability, or that you are
chosen to have that disability. For some other divine purpose.

(15:50):
So there is some aspect to it that has that
sort of empowerment piece. But otherwise that I guess that's
just the point that I'm making in this and right now,
is just that some people do see it as like
they could be seen as a very good thing.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, there are some cultures that like will specifically highlight
certain disabilities as like better than others and and like
kind of come from this model and the like, you know,
like for example, in China, in some spaces, like I know,
some communities will find that somebody diagnosed with autism is
considered that. I think that the term that was used
was like star child, like it was like a gift
from the heavens, gift from the gods and stuff like.

(16:26):
There were a couple like there's a couple comments and
like communities that believe that as part of this and
that that also like aligns with a moral model, which
is like this is a gift, this is good, this
is something that comes from the space. So like I
think it's I think it is important. Like I know,
it sounds like you know, most of it's most of
it's like you got what you deserve, and it's terrible
because people view disabilities as bad, but there's also those

(16:46):
I've seen examples of that too, especially working in different communities.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
I forget what it was, but we did talk about
this a little bit in the discussion we did where
like with a lot of the incest that was happening
on the Hawaiian Islands and early sort of kingdoms, they
would have children born with various differences limb differences, neurological differences,
et cetera. Mean that those were celebrated, as you as
we sort of described as being like children of God,

(17:13):
basically like they were like almost holy figures.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah. So this discussion sounds like it's kind of antiquated
a little bit, and you might think it's kind of uncommon,
but it's actually very much alive and strong today. Many
movies and other media make use of this idea. Villains
might be disabled or impaired. Disabled people are depicted as pitiable, sinister, maladjusted, pathetic, evil,
and capable of having a successful life or a burden

(17:37):
to their family or society at large. Specifically, when we
were talking about this, I was thinking of how I
was thinking of three hundred, Yeah, and how the one
character was kind of like cast off as like a pariah,
and like he deserved it. He was not fit, he
wasn't he would not be able to participate in quote
unquote normal activities, and that obviously didn't work out for
the Spartans, But like it was one of those things

(17:59):
I think about that specif you know that depiction, which
is like obviously not an accurate depiction of like disability
in some spaces, but like it is something that was
like notable in media.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Well, that's a great example of representing how this was
thought about in the past. And we did it a
whole episode on the Spartans, uh, in our three hundredth episode,
which is one hundred and forty four episodes ago.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Wild that.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, that like they practiced a hardcore version of eugenics, yes,
which resulted in basically killing off their society, right, which
makes sense. But yeah, that you're right that there is
how that was depicted in that, and I think it's
depicted that way in a lot of movies. Like that's
actually a super common thing to use. Alternatively, some people
with disabilities are projected as heroically quote unquote overcoming their

(18:42):
disability in these sort of media movie type spaces, and
then they performed some miraculous feat because they overcame their disability.
And all that feeds into the idea that people swink
or swim by their own merit when they have a disability,
and that again is sort of a you know, it
is what it is is, you know, do you if
you fail? And like, good on you if you succeed,

(19:04):
But like that's that's pretty much it.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, and if it isn't clear by this point in
the episode, we don't particularly subscribe to this orientation, Like
it feels gross, And it feels gross because it portrays
this ability as something you deserve one way or another. Yeah,
and that doesn't feel right, Like I would guess this
is not the most common way that people think about
disability anymore. I think, with advancements and like maybe some
growth of the you know how people think about people

(19:28):
more often than not. But I do fear that like
there is this embedded in society in some way. I
was literally listened to a guy talk about how snap
benefits shouldn't be they should just get rid of them
all together, because he because and he specifically said, the
guy who's four feet tall and in a wheelchair can
still greet people at Walmart. So if he can do that,
then you shouldn't be on TikTok do and blah blah blah.

(19:48):
It's like it just to totally negates like all these things.
It's just a weird model. It doesn't feel good.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, yeah, it exists, it's there. But I do think
even people who have this sort of meritocracy idea about disability,
I don't think it is fully realized across all versions
of all disabilities and the way that this model sort
of exists. So I might see like some people as
being like, yeah, you deserve it, it happened to you.

(20:15):
But other people it might be like, that is a
thing that sucks, that shouldn't have happened to you. We
will try and help you, and like they could have
those sort of those simultaneous beliefs about different people in
different situations and not struggle with the fact that those
sort of clashed with each other in terms of values.

(20:35):
But yeah, so that I think is a nice way
to just summarize. Nice That is a coherent way to
summarize the moral model.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Okay, let's transition to then the medical model. All right,
So the medical model, as we described. There's sort of
a timeline here. Everything up to mid nineteen hundreds, roughly
nineteen seventies was primarily situated inside of that sort of
social model, the blame for your disability. Around the nineteenth
the middle of the century, the nineteen seventies or so,

(21:06):
we start to see a shift in perspective and instead
disability is now seen and sort of the medical model
this is this sort of gain more popularity. They do
describe it in one of the sources I found as
existing from the nineteen seventies to the nineteen nineties. That's
definitely not accurate, Like this is still very pervasive and
very common. Matter of fact, I would kind of guess

(21:28):
that possibly most people fall into this category. I'm not sure.
I don't know if anyone's done some kind of census
about it. But the medical model does not require blame
for it to work. So the social model is about blame.
The medical model doesn't really care about blame, but it
does focus on the individual with the disability, and it
might also emphasize prevention of acquiring disabilities, if you will.

(21:53):
And I think as we get into it, it sees
disability as problematic.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, I do think that conversation of prevention is always
an interesting one from a behavioral perspective. We always kind
of talk about prevention of crisis behavior as a podcast,
we never really talk about prevention of ADS. Though.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
We are back and we were saying we do not
talk about the prevention of ads. That is kind of true.
I think we've sort of mentioned it, but I mean
also the opposite is like we directly include them.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
So do you know the thing, it's a conundrum wrapped
in a mystery and all those things.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
That was a nice buffer for people who skipped through
the ads and are trying to figure out where the
conversation happens. So now we're getting back on track.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, yeah, here we are. So we're talking about the
medical model and kind of how this emerged. The medical
model still views disability and impairment as essentially similar things.
The core concepts of the medical model include that disability
is when quote unquote normal things are broken and therefore pathological,
which in itself can be a concern. Disability is a

(23:00):
broke quote unquote broken thing that needs to be fixed.
People with disabilities should listen to able bodied experts who
want to help so they can be fixed. Quote unquote again,
and the solution to disability is to quote unquote repair
the person so that it is not a disability anymore.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yes, that's the general idea, and I think that like
this exists in a lot of ways, in a lot
of spaces, and this one actually does require a bit
more nuance in conversation, which we'll get to a little
bit later, but we want to make sure that we
do unpack clearly what's happening here. And that's actually kind
of the gist of it though, Like the medical model
is that, like, disabilities are a thing that need to

(23:36):
be fixed, yeah, and a problem to be solved. It's
a problem to be solved. You're exactly right, that's where
it's coming from. And I think a lot of people
hear that and they're like, well, that is what disabilities are.
And so hold on before you before you start writing
emails or like tune out, like let's let's make sure
we get through this so that you'll understand where we're
coming from. And it's I think worth pointing out that
the medical model can be found in a lot of

(23:57):
different spaces. You can find a version of the medical
model of disability in psychological spaces. Physiological spaces and even
educational spaces, and in these settings, labels are important, meaning
that they want to call a disability something. They want
to say it's this thing, or it's this thing. And
when they call it something, there is usually a variety

(24:18):
of quote unquote treatments that they might prescribe for that thing,
because again, it's a broken thing that needs to be fixed.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
In this view, when we say thing, we're saying the disability,
not the person.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Just to be clear, Yeah, yeah, although fixing the disability
might involve fixing the person in the medical model, sure, sure,
quote unquote fixing like doing something to them. Yeah, And
again here important features that disabled people are sort of
expected to comply with whatever directives they're given to improve
their pathological state and return them to a quote unquote

(24:49):
normal state or as close to that as they can
possibly get, as to sort of what you might think
of as remediate their way down. And please excuse the
fact that we sort of slip in and out of
this language that's quite ablest as we're trying to describe
this model, because we're really just trying to get the
ideas across, and rather than say, quote unquote every single

(25:10):
time like sometimes I'm just going to say what they're
saying and know that we will get back arounds to
where that becomes more problematic and other ways to talk
about it as well, But just understanding that, like that's
essentially the medical model. It exists in a lot of
different spaces, and a lot of it has to do
with like, allow us experts to help you who are

(25:31):
who need our help.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah. Now, a lot of behavior analists have and I
want to be clear, not all, not all I think
we're getting better, yeah, but a lot of behavior analysts
and kind of the historically the field at large has
approached their jobs with people with disabilities much like the
medical model. And you'll hear the quote and this has
actually used a lot when we kind of discuss behavior
analysis historically, is this quote that we want to quote

(25:55):
make them indistinguishable from their peers end quote which comes
from some problematic folks many many years ago. But it
is one of those things that is that has become
not necessarily a mantra for the field, but that is
kind of baked in to a lot of the practices
of behavior analysis and we're really trying to work to
undo that.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, as you said, there's been a significant dramatic shift
away from that way of thinking about it, and I
think much more towards the different model that we're going
to discuss shortly. But like, yeah, that has been how
some people have viewed it, and I think that it does.
We can hear it. And that's part of why I
think we understand this model really well is coming from

(26:36):
a place where that was historically a similar way to
approach it. And to be fair, like that those were
kind of your options at the time. That behavior analysis
as a way to approach disability was different from the
moral model, is that it was the medical model and
you basically had those are the two primary ways of
thinking about disability. Either it's your fault, it doesn't matter.

(26:58):
If it's your fault, we're going to try and fix
it right. And you can see that there was the
value of compassion in that, and that I think gets
to the sort of nuance a little bit that we're
going to come back to is that, like, I think
you can hear this model and understand that where they're
coming from is not this like whatever you got it,
you it's yours. You're stuck with it. Too bad? If

(27:20):
life is hard to like, let's try and make your
life easier. But again, that requires viewing disability as like
something's wrong with you. We need try to change the
thing that's wrong with you so that you can be
not wrong anymore.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
It aligns a lot with disease models.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
It does, yeah, very much. So yeah, so the medical
model certainly does not enroll the input from people with
disabilities historically not Usually it's not like, hey, what do
you think, what do you need? It's more like you
have something wrong with you. Here's what we're going to
do to fix it sort of approach. So that's another
sort of feature here, is just that it is like

(27:56):
handed down from on high, the White Ivory Tower sort
of thing.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Sure. Now, in movies and medical model, presentation of a
disabled person might be that they are hopeless and desponded
until an able bodied person helps them find meaning and
quality of life. They swoop in with their savior behavior
and fix all the problems that are being expressed by
that person with disabilities.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
I also saw sort of a reverse twist on how
this might be depicted in in entertainment media and storytelling,
where it depicts sort of this disabled person who helps
enable bodied person become a better person by saying like
it's Rainman. Yeah, actually is a good way.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
That's the entire premise of rain Man.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah, yeah right, that is exactly right. So wow, a
good good call on that, man. I love that you
had that. It's like ready to go. That was impressive.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
I've always found media depictions of disability and like and
the perspectives on it very fascinating because especially working in it,
because you're like, that's not that's not correct. I feel
like one of the closest representations of like systems that
impact people disabilities, maybe like I am Sam, because you've
got somebody who who is has a disability and has
a child and is like struggling in a system where

(29:04):
they're like trying to be a caretaker for their child
and they don't know how to navigate the system, and
like they don't really get the support they deserve or need.
So like, there are some things like that where like
you see it and you're like, I could see that
happening more realistically than something like Rainman, which is not
quite an accurate depiction of disability in that space.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah, fair, And I think we sort of alluded to
so I think we've done a good job sort of
given examples of movies that depict this in various ways.
Where you have three hundred is a good example of this,
of the moral model. Rain Man is a good example
of the medical model as a way that those values
are spoused. And I'm sure we could come up with
a lot more, because disability is actually represented in quite

(29:42):
a few instances in media, but I think in a
lot of them they either come from the moral model
or the social model, or the sorry of the medical model.
But that I'm skipping a head a little bit because
we're now getting to the third and final of the
three primary models that people talk about, which is called
the social model.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah. So this was identified starting in the nineteen nineties
when Heroin was all the rage and flannel was everybody's
fashion choice or neon, I guess. And during this time,
Wild and Crazy Kids was on Nickelodeon and that was
a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Nirvana was like the music of the age.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah yeah, yeah, Now this model that started in nineties,
if use disability as a diverse characteristic of people, much
like race, ethnicity, gender, etc. It's not something wrong with
the person, it's just an aspect of who they are.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, And the core concepts of the social model are
that some of the list of few of them. One
is that disabilities are simply unique characteristics of people. As
you just mentioned, It's just a feature of how that
person shows up in the world. Disabilities are a failure
of society to accommodate a broad range of impairments. Disabilities
are not wrong and therefore no one's fault, and the

(30:52):
solution to disability is to make the world a more
accommodating place. That's sort of those core concepts embedded in
the social model here.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah. And this model distinguishes between disability and impairment, which
I think is really important, in which the impairment is
the physical or mental condition and disability is the restrictions
and impairments that make the impairment challenging for the person
who has it.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, So I want to I want to like make
sure that that point is really clear. Essentially, they're saying, like,
people show up in the world a lot of different ways.
Sometimes the world is not really set up to receive
those people just because of the way that they showed
up and the fact that the world is more difficult
for them to navigate is what we're calling disability. Sure,

(31:37):
And I think as a as an example of this
that I was thinking about as I was sort of
putting this together, is like the world is very accommodating
for people who are right hands dominant, and that because
the world, particularly in the past, it's gotten so much better.
But like, particularly in the past, because the world was
so difficult for people who were left hand dominant to navigate,

(32:00):
Like you could have very much called being left handed
a disability for like, and it was it was for a.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
While, like people did consider that and they taught it
out of people.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, yeah, I actually we have a listener mail that
I was not planning to include that I think I'm
going to that person writes in it and gives that
exact description of growing up where it was punished is
using the left hand to do things. And yeah, like
the world was just harder to navigate and in some
places nearly impossible to navigate because the things that we built,

(32:30):
the structures that we created, the doors that we made,
our writing system are reading, so many things were essentially
like easy to do if you were right hand dominant,
and difficult or impossible if you were left hand dominant.
And so like the fact that they're left handed is
not like a problem. It's just that we built a
world that doesn't allow them to successfully work inside that world.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, and I think you could see this example and
like for folks who are wheel like in wheelchairs or
like people with limb differences too, like really clearly right,
so like you know where you might say the impairment
is that somebody has a limb difference. Then maybe they
have they're missing a leg or something like this, and
the disability is that they have a harder time navigating
certain walkways or because they maybe don't have a prosthetic

(33:16):
that has been adapted to them or something like that,
where they maybe have some struggles in those spaces, Like
you might see something like that, or like we mentioned,
like being in a wheelchair, the impairment is that you're
in a wheelchair. The disability is that you can't move
upstairs as safely or as smoothly as somebody who is
not in a wheelchair, right, which is why we need
to accommodate and why we need it se up the
world to meet those needs.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yes, Okay, do I feel like we've clearly identified the
distinction between like impairment and disability.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
I think we did our best.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Okay, all right, hopefully that's clear, because I think it's
really important to understand, like people have a way. Again,
it's really just thinking about that, Like, you might show
up in the world in a particular way, and if
the world is not set up to allow you to
navigate through it because of the systems and the architecture
and the things that we've created, then like that's the problem.

(34:05):
You just are you however that is for you and
how you navigate the world is kind of the problem
that was created by people not thinking about how people
show up in the world somewhat differently they designed it.
It'd be like if someone who was four feet tall
designed a building where all the doorways were just barely
over four feet tall because they're like, well this works

(34:25):
for me, and everyone else is coming and being like,
well I can't. I'd have to get down and literally
crawl through that door. Shane would have to like do
the worm to get through that door. Yeah, yeah, and
like that would look like a disability for him then
because he's very tall and the door is very small.
That's essentially the way to think about this, right, absolutely
that's why it's important to have the difference between what's

(34:47):
a disability and what's impairment and what's an advertisement. All right,
we're back. We're talking about the social model of disabilities
and what that entails.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, so going back to kind of what we're trying
to emphasize here, if we're thinking about what the core
features and the values of like thiss model are, the
social model does emphasize the disability is a lack of
cohesion between someone's situation and the way the infrastructure society
has designed the systems of use. Right, So, like that's
the biggest thing. It's like there is a valley between
somebody's current situation and the way that society has adapted

(35:26):
to meet their needs.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
So let's take for example, again just trying to highlight this,
I use example of someone being you know, four feet
tall designing doors, someone who is left handed navigating a
world for right handed people. Let's imagine walking into a
restaurant where all the chairs and the tables are at
least five feet tall, Like you would have to like
for me, the top of the chair would be like

(35:49):
where my neck is, or like the seat of the
chair would be where my neck is right for someone
who's fifteen feet tall. And yes, I understand that those
people don't exist, but let's pretend they do. For someone
who's fifteen feet tall, this might work great. They come in,
they're like, oh, this is really handy. I can sit here.
But for the rest of us, like the majority of us, probably,
we would struggle to climb into our chairs and reach

(36:09):
the table. Yeah, and so this would be a disability
for us. And it's not because there's anything wrong with us.
It's because the people who made this restaurant made the
chairs extremely tall, so like to get to our chair,
we have to literally climb up that chair somehow. And
to help think about how this relates to the different models.

(36:29):
If you think about this restaurant that I've designed here,
where the chairs, the seat of the chair is five
feet off the table and the table itself is even higher,
the moral model might respond with, tough, this place isn't
for you. Sit on the floor and eat or leave.
That's the sort of moral model. The medical model might
respond with, all right, let's go ahead and fix those
legs or to make them much much longer so that

(36:49):
you can reach the table. That's sort of the medical
model here. The social model is like, let's lower those
chairs so you can reach them, or at least provide
an easy way for you to get up to those
chairs so that you can sit and participate in this restaurant.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
I like this.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Example as something that's like a little bit absurd, but
to help just try and illustrate the differences between those.
It's like one of them is like, suck it up,
too bad, you can't eat at this restaurant. The other
one is like, well, let's go ahead and implant those
new legs so you can sit in those chairs. And
the third one is like, let's give you a ladder
or maybe just make the chairs shorter so that you
can sit there and participate.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
The social models is so parsimonious.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's like which one would you rather be
participating in? What if you found yourself in the situation? Right, Like,
I feel like it's pretty clearly the third one.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, And I think this is really important to think
about this when you think about this logically, and you
think about this, like just from the perspective of like
how do we even get here? Right? Society has created
systems and structures that simply prohibit participation for some people.
We design the systems, and then many people can't participate
in those systems, and then we blame those people. We
say that they're the ones with something wrong with them.

(37:55):
What the fuck is that? Yeah, it doesn't even make
any sense.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, like, you can't use this thing. I made this
thing that you can't use. That's your fault. And I'm like,
but you made it, but you made it, which means
you can change it. Yeah, So like, why is that
my fault. I'm just over here, just doing my thing.
I'm just living my best life. And you're like, here's
a here's a thing you can't use. And I'm like,
I mean, okay, I guess I won't use it, but

(38:20):
why and by the way, everyone else can. I want
to make it so everyone can use it.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
But you it's so weird.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
It is weird, and it's it's just such a backward
way of thinking about it, I think.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
But yeah, agree, Okay.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
So the social model is focused on changing the environment,
the systems, and society to create a more inclusive and
accommodating space that works for everyone, or at least as
many people as possible. There's a really important point here
that I think. I also want to illustrate inside of
the social model, well designed systems that accommodate impairment make
a disability disappear like it makes it so like it

(38:54):
almost doesn't exist. And the other beautiful thing about accommoding
impairments is that it works for everyone.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
On right, let's use this as an example. Right, we
have engineered doors that since when somebody nears them and
automatically opens them before you get to them and closes
behind you. We used to only make heavy doors that
had to have a latcher handle that was pushed or turned.
Now we ought to do that. Now not only not
only do we have these automatic doors where you never

(39:20):
have to touch them and they open for everybody that approaches,
but now you also get to pretend to be a
Jedi when you walk into every store you walk into.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
That's right, you can use the force open the door.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Win, win for everybody.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
And I just want to highlight, like how big of
a difference that makes. So if you had imagined, like
every door that you approached were these heavy doors that
had some kind of latch that you had to manipulate
to open, and now we have doors that just open
for you as you approach them. And the advent of
automatic doors, people who are missing limbs or hands, without
the strength or balance to push, pull, or turn, who

(39:50):
lacked the vision to see where to engage with the door,
people who are in wheelchairs or walkers, or with a cane,
veteran amputees. Even if thinking about like mothers with strollers
or who are carrying babies or holding them by the hand,
people who just have their arms full of stuff, even
just people coming and going at the same time, the

(40:10):
door no longer becomes an obstacle to everyone, right, and
we're talking about like a mother with a stroller shed
Like I don't think we would usually call that a disability,
but when your option to try and go into a
building is to navigate heavy door with latch, that starts
to feel like a disability. And we create these automatic doors,

(40:31):
and all of a sudden, everyone benefits from this. We
all benefit. It's more convenient and we barely even notice
that it's there, and more people can use it. Boom
better system. Like that's that is that is it? And
like that's the example of what I mean of, Like
we design these ways and these things in such a way,
and it's like it doesn't just help the people who

(40:51):
are in wheelchairs. It helps everyone, and it helps the
people who are in wheelchairs. And again, a well designed
system makes the disability disapp here. It's not a struggle
anymore for people who would like have some situation that
would make it difficult for them, and all we had
to do was make it work a little better.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yeah, exactly, So, disability and impairment is not a problem.
It's not a mistake, and it's not an inconvenience. It's
just and we say this from like the perspective of
like how it should be viewed. Right, Yes, for that person,
they may be experiencing some inconveniences and related to it,
but like as a society, like, it's not it shouldn't
be like an inconvenience to somebody who it does not
have a disability. It's just how well or how poorly

(41:30):
our systems are capable of working for the most people
in the most situations. And according to this model, everybody's
included and everybody wins.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
So the way that this might be depicted in movies
and media is when you have people with disabilities who
have agency where they are able to navigate and work
inside of their world without needing to have some able
bodied savior to get them there, and that they are
perfectly realized, complex individuals who like have character and have agency.

(42:01):
And I actually think as I was thinking about this,
where this occurred to me as showing up as in
the TV show Only Murders in the Building. Have you
watched that one?

Speaker 2 (42:10):
No? I haven't watched that one?

Speaker 1 (42:11):
Okay, So I think it's the very first season and
they have a character who is deaf and communicates via
sign and they do this one episode where the entire
episode has almost no sound because it's from his perspective.
Oh wow, And so it's a really cool way of
seeing him just sort of navigate and walk through the world.
And essentially they get to a point where like people learn,

(42:34):
they learn sign, they have all these systems in place
to make it so that this personins can sort of
navigate and like he figures stuff out on his own,
he like works with things on his own. He has character,
he has agency, he has an arc, and they sort
of show what it's like to sort of navigate a
world in that way and how like he can. He's
living this rich, full life as a person where the

(42:55):
primary thing about him, like his disability does come into
play as it relates to the nature of the story
because well, I'm not going to get into it because
it kind of spoils the first season, but the point
being that, like he is a character and the disability
is just a feature of that character. If that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. And I think
another one I think up too is Echo. Oh yeah,
the MCU show. Yeah, I think Actually this is such
an interesting one because if you are familiar, Echo plays
Mae Lopez and Mayo Lopez is like, this is just
badass like martial artists, like kind of like hit woman
type of situation. But she's completely deaf and she has

(43:32):
a limb difference. She has a prosthetic leg and so
she but she is the most badass person that is
on the entire show. And she actually was like her
limb difference was acquired in real life because the actress
they used specifically was deaf and also had a limb
difference in real life, and so she has there was
like some cool representative representation there too, on top of

(43:53):
the fact that she was also indigenous, So you've got
all these things happening. There were like really cool. But
like as far as like depict you of disability, I
think they did a really good job of showing how
the fail. They didn't make that the central point of
the show. Yeah, they made her like, you know, she
herself was had agency, she was independent. She was just
this like killer, like superior martial artist in all these spaces,

(44:16):
and everybody around her just worked with her and like
learned to work like and like learn to communicate with
her instead of like forcing her to communicate in other ways.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, that's a good example. Daredevil, I feel like sort
of also falls into a similar category here.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yeah. So those are the three models as we described.
We have the moral model, the medical model, and the
social model. There are like some other models that people
have talked about, I do think like and they specifically say,
like they're kind of a tangential side step version from
existing models, or they're like maybe a slightly expanded or
different framework from models. So we'll explain those really quick.

(44:52):
Just we'll just go through each of them. We won't
do as big of a like a deep of a
dive as we've done on the original three, but first
we'll play an add I guess all right, we'll back,
we'll back, we're back. Let's get into some of the
other sort of models that people talked about. So if

(45:14):
you heard those three and you're like, well, those other
models too. I did find a few more, and maybe
not even all of them. But if we miss some,
write in and tell us. But we'll go ahead and
list a few more of the other models that exist.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yeah, So one of the models that comes up is
the charity model, and charity models these people with disabilities
is tragic, pitiable people who need benefits and services. They
need charity and helping them is doing charitable work. They
must be cared for and are often or always incapable
of making decisions and being independent. I think the core
feature of that one is less about getting people services

(45:48):
that they may need that they're requesting and accessing and
like trying to do, and more about like thinking that
they need it because they can't do anything. Yeah, the
charity model sounds like it andfantalizes people.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
It does, and like this This is, as you can
probably guess, a sort of small twist on the moral model.
It actually is probably closer to maybe more contemporary religious traditions,
where it's like the you know, go do charitable work
and help those poor people who can't help themselves sort
of thing. And it doesn't think infantilize people. Yeah, there's

(46:18):
also the human rights model. This one is described as
a sort of existing circle nineteen ninety six or so,
so slightly after the social model, and this one is
described as building on the social model, and it sees
people with disabilities as being the central agents in their lives,
capable of making decisions. The primary focus of the human
rights model is to push for the responsibility of the

(46:39):
powers that be to create equitable treatment for people with disabilities,
and is largely kind of seen as a legal framework
for implementing the social model. So it's sort of like
an almost advocacy type, like we know where our values
stand on this. The human rights model is like, let's
get an action about this yesterday.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yeah. I could see that model kind of being a
springboard for person centered approaches. Yeah, that feels like it's
in that space where it's like you're making sure that
like you are taking active steps to include the folks
that are involved in the services to be at the
table and be involved in those services and be the
center of those services. Like I could see that kind
of showing up.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
Yeah, that's a great example.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
There's the economic model, which is concerned with the extent
to which a disability prevents someone from working. It considers
the financial impact of disability as it relates to the individual,
the employer, and the state. It is largely a framework
for making decisions about disability as it relates to its
economic impact. And this is almost as bad as the
moral model because it essentially says you're only worth what

(47:40):
you can produce. Yeah, and that feels like just capitalism
at its core, which is just also really bad. But
that's kind of what it looks like to me at least.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Man, we need to dig into capitalism sometime because I
think people hear that and they're like, like this to me,
feels like the libertarian view of disability. Yeah, right. Of
the ones that we've talked about, it's it's the most
separate from the three different models because it feels like
it's really just about like money, money, money, money.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Money, it's all about productivity. Well, yeah, it's what you produces.
What is what you're worth?

Speaker 1 (48:11):
Yes, exactly right, and that there's like there's an aspect
of that that's like all right, we might a combat disability,
because that means that they work and they contribute and
they pay in taxes and they you know, buy things,
and like that's the important thing, is that we all
buy things and we all work. Yeah, And I know
people have that value, and I think that like I understand,

(48:33):
like from a very pragmatic stand like position pragmant it's
not really the word for it, from a very outcome
oriented position, I think I can sort of understand where
they're coming from and also strongly disagree with that value
that's embedded inside of that. And I think that's why
it'll be worth at some point like really unpacking what's
going on in sort of the capitalist system, because I

(48:57):
think that people just see those like this is this
is the right way, Like this is the only way
we could possibly do things. But anyway, let's continue. The
last of the additional models that I found is a
functional model. It's sort of a version of the medical model.
So as you can see, we sort of have like
tangential side steps to the core models, and then the
economic model. You have Charity is the moral model, human
rights is a social model, functional is the medical model,

(49:19):
and then you have the economic models kind of its
own thing. But it's pretty close to the moral model.
It's the closest to the moral model, I guess.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah, But anyway, the functional model is sort of a
version of the medical model that emphasizes the extent to
which a person's capabilities or a lack thereof, impact the
extent to which they can perform functional activities like activities
of daily living, that sort of thing. So it's really
looking at like, how do we change you so that

(49:45):
you can do things more effectively?

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Sure that, and you can see where that can lead
into a problem and where that's like directly related to
the medical model for sure.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yeah. And I mean again, it also is a little
bit more in the like outcome oriented end, like let's
just get things working slightly better, But the way to
get things working better is like fix the person, not
the situation. Yeah, and I kind of ironically where I
feel like, although behavior analysts have sometimes been in that position,
I'm like, our overall ethos has always been fixed the situation. Yeah,

(50:19):
and so it's kind of weird that it has espoused
a totally different orientation at times.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
So we've listed all the models, what are the models
of disability and what they are, what they entail, what
their core concepts are, and so you might be wondering, like,
what's the right answer here? And I feel like we
made our position really clear both at the beginning, in
the middle, and at the end. But we'll go ahead
and just say, like the social human rights models is
the right one, right.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Like that that feels like the nicest and also the
most useful one for sure.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, I mean I think that it works the best
in every way that you could be concerned with a
model working, it works the best. And I think you
could argue that there are pros and cons to each,
and we're going to do that just to help underscore that,
Like we want to understand why people adhere to one
or one model or another, and so we need to
talk through like sort of what they get out of

(51:08):
what they see in those models. But yeah, if the
correct answer is really kind of the social human rights model,
if you are concerned with any aspect of disability at all,
like that one, Like, even if you think it's people's
fault this, the social model still works better. Even if
you think that we need to fix that, the social
model still works better. Like, yeah, no matter how you
slice and dice it, it just works better. So I

(51:30):
think that that's the human and the human rights is
embedded in there. Yeah, but I think that's pretty much
the best way to go.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
It seems to impact the most people positively.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Yeah. I mean, like, if you're someone who's like I'm
just concerned with people's ability to perform a job, I'm like, well,
if you think about this as like how do we
accommodate spaces so that they can work, then like we
we're looking at this in the social model, like that
still is the better way to go, Like.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, you know, at the end
of the day, people are gonna they're gonna latch onto
whatever feels closest to their already adopted set of values.
The meritocracy idea is very appealing to the moral argument crowd.
It's also kind of in line with the medical model crowd.
People see it as quote unquote fair that some people
get to participate in others do not, And so you're

(52:15):
gonna have folks that just like they glom onto that
very easily.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
Yeah, And I think, you know, a religious person might
find the moral model very attractive by virtue of the
employment of God as the enigmatic giver of life assignments,
including terrible ones. Coher is nicely with the worldview that
they already espouse about like that's how just how things happen.
It might feel noble and even empowering to say like

(52:38):
God wants you this way, lucky, and approach it that way.
And I do think, like again trying to just consider
the nuances here, the idea that like, if someone can
really take on and believe my impairment is a blessing
from God, that might be as empowering or even more

(53:00):
than the social model, which is like we're going to
fix the things that are wrong with our infrastructure so
that it's more accommodating by people feeling like really like
this is such a wonderful thing that I have this,
and so like that could be a pro that people
turn to and say like how wonderful is it that
they have such a great attitude and outlook on their disability,

(53:20):
And I'm like, I'm not going to say that you're wrong.
I still like would espouse the social model, the human
rights model, but like I just wanted to try and
build in the nuance and try and thinking about like
where you could look at this and make a case
for it if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I could see how that could show
up for some folks for sure. Now, there are several
conditions that require a digital tools or supports to facilitate
agile movement and interaction with the world, And being able
to interact with the world in an agile way without
those tools would be easier. If you spent your entire
life using vision to navigate the world, and all of
a sudden your vision was severely compromised, a surgery might

(53:57):
make it so that you can once again depend on
your vision without any additional tools. That applies a medical
approach pretty clearly, right, Like, you've got an acquired injury,
so we're going to now as a result, you have
lost some ability. So now we're going to create or
we're going to do some type of procedure or treatment
that's going to restore at least some level of that ability.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yeah. And I think you also see this a little
bit in the deaf community. People who have lost the
hearing might get cochlear implants. That means that, like they
could have navigated the world as a deaf person, they
chose to get surgery I really think like it's really
just not appropriate to impart values on people's decisions about
how they would like to move around the world, right,

(54:38):
Like if to them, they're like, I just I really
want my hearing. It's so important to me that I
have it. It's great that the deaf community exists, but
I want to have my hearing, and a cochlear implant
will give me that. Like, I would not begrudge someone
making that choice. And the people who are in the
deaf community who say, like, my deafness is not a problem,
I am. I am happy being in this community. I'm

(54:59):
perfect happy navigating the world where there are accommodations for
people where hearing is not a way that they interact
with that world, And like good for them, Like that
is a perfectly legitimate choice for them to navigate the
world in a way that they would like to navigate it.
So it's just I think we just accept that people
approach these things in a way that works for them,

(55:19):
and we shouldn't begrudge them those choices. And I think
we still just accommodate the best we possibly can. So
I think, again, the medical model is not completely at
odds with the social model. Right, And so that's why
there's not a black and white distinction here. I think
you can have both of those things, and people may
make those choices. But I do think again it's worth

(55:41):
sort of making sure that people are they have agency
in this choice they feel like, like, rather than doctors
saying like, there's something wrong, I want to fix you,
the person coming in and saying like, I wish that
I could make this aspect of my life easier, and
the doctors saying like, yeah, let's see if we can
help you do that thing, and alternatively like, let me

(56:02):
do the best that I can to accommodate whatever situation
you have so that you can navigate this in a
way that's fairly seamless, right, and just be open to
whatever sort of makes sense, and really and we'll sort
of get to this, but like and roll in the
person like what they need.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Absolutely, there may be some things that are more difficult
to accommodate than others, or that are even counterproductive for
some impairments. Like what if improvement improvement and accessibility for
one impairment results in decreased accessibility for another, is there
a reasonable solution? Then they don't do anything. No of
course not. There's gonna be some kind of challenges here
and some balances here that we have to look at.

(56:38):
There's a lot of like kind of pros and cons
and weighing the risks and benefits of these situations. But
it shouldn't be somebody else making that decision. It should
be the person that's like directly going to be impacted
by that decision that gets to make the decision based
on those risks and benefits, the pros and cons and
all that.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
Yeah, right, I mean I think you can have people
and again this strikes me as being some a libertarian,
but I think you're gonna have be people who see
this as like, Okay, so this person comes in and
they want this accommodation, but that means this person comes
in and that accommodation doesn't work for the Like this
person who has a hearing impairment of some sort, they
want us to add text, but that means this person

(57:16):
who has a vision impairment, they now can't read the
thing that we've added texts to because they have a
different impairment. So like, let's just not let's not do anything.
We're just going to do things the way that we
do them could be the sort of approach that they take,
and I'm like, I just think that that's not the
way to go. You know, that doesn't make sense. We
don't necessarily turn to that. I really think the best
thing that you can do is include people with disabilities

(57:38):
from those communities and let them make the choices, request
recommendations and suggestions. Involve them in every step of the
planning and implementation of the systems that they need. Sometimes
they'll do all of the development of that, and that
might be a really good thing. Although I don't want
to feel like the entire onus should be on them,
But like a lot of times, what has happened in

(57:58):
the past as people said, oh, people have this disability,
let's change this for them, and they're sort of over
there going like that's not that's not what we need.
That's not the thing that we're asking for. Like that's
not helping. And it's like all we had to do
is say, like, all right, we designed the system this
way that seems to not be working. How could we
do this better for you?

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Right?

Speaker 1 (58:16):
Like we're over here the designers, like you tell us
what would work and that would that would solve it?
Like that's all we have to do is include them
in the conversations. And I do think, like, as we said,
sometimes some accommodation makes another accessibility issue. They could clash
with one another. So sometimes what we'll just do is say, like,
let's create specific accommodations that may be available in case

(58:38):
they're needed in a space where like we designed it
the best we could. We know there's going to be
use cases where this doesn't always work. So let's see
if we can plan, you know, involve people in the
process where we plan for what if this doesn't work
the way that we hoped it would, what would we
need to do differently?

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Right?

Speaker 1 (58:55):
I think you nailed it, Okay, So I think it's
fairly clear where we fall on this. I don't know
if there's any ambiguity here. We I think we espouse
the social model.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
Yeah, And if there is, then we've done a good
job of explaining, like we yeah, it should be the
social model, like it really it really really truly should
in like understanding that is like the front facing the
force that we should be using to really improve the
world around us.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
Yeah. I mean I really think like we think about
we design these systems and they don't work for some people,
and the moral model is like, well you you're screwed.
The medical model is like, we can fix you, and
the social model is like, let's just make that disability disappear.
Like the fastest, most effective way to get rid of
this is to build systems that make it so that's
not the impairment. Isn't a disability, right, that's the most

(59:40):
comprehensive way to do it. So anyway, that's clearly where
we fall. I think we're on board with that being
the case. Yeah, okay, sweet, all right, Well is that
all we have to say about disabilities or the models? Yeah, disabilities,
we got a lot coming on the bike, But for
the models of disability, I think we've covered and as

(01:00:01):
I've said, I think this will be pivotal for setting
the occasion for all of the other things we're going
to discuss inside of this space. But as we're closing
this one out, if you're a new listener, you may
not know that we do recommend some things, which I
think is a very fun part of each discussion that
we do, and we also have a little bit of
listener mail, so we're going to do those things. But

(01:00:24):
first I'm going to blame another ad. All right, let's
start actually with listener mail. All right. This one comes
from listener Letitia, who writes on quite a bit and
we love it. It's awesome and these are super fun conversations.

(01:00:45):
And she writes, I was listening to some of your
old episodes and I came across the handedness episode. I'm
a lefty slash southpaw, and you are correct. We do
have some inconveniences, but it makes us that much more flexible.
I won't use correction tape because it's a pain and
always unravels. So I use white out pens or liquid
white out because they make the sort of white out tape,

(01:01:05):
but it's only for this, really designed for right handed people,
and always unravels. So I use white out pens or
liquid white out because they make the sort of white
out tape, but it's only for this, really designed for
right handed people. I take paper out of binder's when
I write, gone through a ton of pens to figure
out which ones won't smear. But life has become more
convenient with the amount of technology we use every day.
I don't write much. I guess if there's anything i'd

(01:01:26):
wish right handed people would do more to make our
lives easier as to let us sit at the head
of the table or far left of the table when
we eat so we don't knock elbows or take the
only left handed desk. My biggest pep even school was
when the right handed person took one of or something
the only left handed desk in the class. I grew
up Catholic, and when I started Catechism, I made the
sign of the Cross with my left hand and gave

(01:01:47):
the nun a coronary. I got smacked with a ruler
once or twice, but I'm too stubborn to change hands.
My grandfather was a left handed shortstop baseball player, and
he had some major advantages when he played. I'm not
that athletic. I can't say if my handed uh handedness
was helped here. I also wanted to let you know
that horses have a dominant side. Horses will pick up

(01:02:07):
a canter easier on one side versus the other, or
stumble on their non dominant side. Thanks for all the
great stuff you all keep putting out, and I look
forward to listening to today's episode on Halloween Masks. Ooh yeah,
so apparently that was when they wrote this. Yeah, what
an awesome follow up. Yeah we I don't remember when
we recorded that. I think it was years ago at
this point, but what an awesome story. Yeah, the and
and we were just talking about being left handed as

(01:02:29):
it relates in this episode. Ye to the idea of
like disability and thinking of it that way. Something else
I didn't mention it here is like being gay was
thought of as being disability, and like why would he
fall in love with be a disability?

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
But that's that's how they that's how they approached it.
Fortunately that went away. And that's kind of another example
of like if we just don't think of like sometimes
we treat things as disabilities that they they just aren't.
They're not even in bronments like it's just again and
unless and accept in the case where we treat them
as if they are that way. But really good email.
Thank you for writing in as always really appreciated and

(01:03:03):
really good stories here. I love the idea of doing
the like the side of the cross with your left
hand and then none, just like throwing a temper tantrum
is very funny.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Yeah, I could see that happening, you know. I'm glad
you brought up your your shortstop family member, because as
a baseball player myself, yeah, like lefties were encouraged. Yeah,
like if you were a left handed pitcher, they wanted
left handed pitchers because it was harder to bet against
right because of where the ball was coming from. But
if you were a left handed batter, it wasn't as

(01:03:32):
much of a problem. Like they really wanted left handed
batters too, because oftentimes left handed batters were hitting the
right field, which was usually like I don't want to
say the weakest fielder, but you had you did, that
person didn't get a lot of the plays because the
right field was like not where you're hitting a lot
of balls. So lefties were like are like gold in baseball,
I mean like even better, like you've got like you know,

(01:03:52):
when you have somebody who can like switch hit. That's
people love that too, So right, Yeah, that's I'm so
glad you brought that up because as somebody you grew
up playing baseball, like, lefties were always like, oh you're
a lefty, Okay, you got a pitch like they made
that happen.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Yeah. Absolutely, I have heard that as well, because handedness
is actually like a strategic aspect of the game.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yes, you really is you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
It kind of comes at a premium to try and
create a mismatch for the other team and their ability
to navigate this the players you've selected to have certain positions. Yeah, so, yeah,
it is. It is kind of a really interesting phenomenon
that something like that would spring up.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
But super fascinating.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Okay, what a great email. If you would like to
tell us your fascinating stories that reference old episodes we've
put out, you should definitely do that by emailing us
at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. But we are not done because
we haven't even recommended some things yet, so it's time
to start doing that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
Yeah, recommendations. My recommendation is another creative pursuit. I truly,
you know. I feel like ever since I've read quest
Loves Creative Quests, I've just been like, oh, yeah, go
do the thing. Go do the thing that's like creative

(01:05:12):
and fun and interesting. And more recently, with the discovery
of this this software program called easy Drummer, my friends
and I have been able to record more music and
so I'm finally you know, for years and years and
years I wanted to write and record my own solo
stuff and all that, and I'm finally doing that, and
it's been a lot of fun to kind of explore
and learn these new behavioral cusps that go along with it,

(01:05:34):
like learning how to record into a computer with instruments
that sound good, learning how to program drums that sound
nice and that follow like certain type, Like playing with
all this stuff has been really cool. So my recommendation
is writing and recording your own music or whatever creative
pursuit you're doing, but specifically writing and recording your own music,
because it is a lot of fun something I've learned.

(01:05:54):
And I saw a talk many years ago from I
believe it was Alan Neringer, Yeah, it was Alan, it
was doctor Allen, and he was talking about lag schedules
and how Picasso used lag schedules to shape his paintings
in some situations and you can see like the errors,
because sometimes what you'll see in paintings is like people
will paint over errors or mistakes and paintings, and you
could see that sometimes in the different layers. And one

(01:06:16):
of Picasso's things, like you would paint something and it
didn't work, it didn't reinforce them essentially, and then he
would paint something else and that didn't reinforce them, and
so he would kind of continue until he found the
thing that was reinforcing. And so he was kind of
talking about how lag schedules work for painters and artists
and the same is true for musicians. So in this process,
I've learned that, oh yeah, this doesn't sound right, I'm
gonna play around with it. I'm gona mess around with
it until it sounds like I wanted to sound. And
that's been a really cool experience. So that's my recommendation,

(01:06:38):
write and record your music because it is really truly
a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Cool and it sounds like. A sub recommendation is find
an easy drummer.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
But yeah, yeah, easy, yeah, finding these drummers the yeah,
the software is called easy Drummer, So like, yeah, find
an easy drummer, I'd like, I mean, if you if
you like, if you're good with rhythm, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
Yeah, yeah, all right. I'm recommend an album that just
came out. This is from I guess you would call
this a heavy metal group, the Acacia Strain. The new
album is called You Are Safe from God Here and
it is I love this band, I really really do.
This is this is mostly slow, absurdly over the top

(01:07:21):
like doom and gloom lyrics. Yeah, that are just to me.
They're very it's like funny, like the way that they
do things. I think that they're fun and silly and
really enjoyable. And I just I love this band and
this album they've put out. I think this is the
heaviest and most creative thing they've ever done. It has.

(01:07:43):
It just feels like they really went for it. They
they like just really were pulling out all the stops.
There's most of the songs on here really short. They're
like two minutes, two and a half minutes maybe, and
then they have one song that's like fourteen minutes long. Yeah. Yeah,
it's just absurdly extremely heavy, ridiculously heavy metal. It sounds

(01:08:05):
like they took their guitar strings and they just tuned
them down to flop around, like you could barely detect
their notes anymore. They're in like drop a yeah exactly.
So if you're into very heavy metal music, I have
been just been really, really really impressed with this album.
Basically it came out just over no I think just
three days ago at the time of this recording, and

(01:08:27):
I have stopped listening to it. I have just been
has been on a loop in my ears and making
me very happy. Maybe it was a week ago, but
I don't know. It hasn't been out for very long,
and I've listened to it many, many, many times, and
it is fantastic. So if you're a fan of like
super ridiculously over the top heavy heavy metal, that's where
you go. And for those people who were like the

(01:08:48):
insanely fast metal, this is not insanely fast. There are
some fast ish parts, but it's mostly very slow and
just very chuggy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Yeah, I like that. A big fan of chuggy, A big.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
Fan of Chuck. All Right, that's what I have to
say about heavy metal music and writing and recording your
own music. And we've started on our models of disability.
As I said, reach out to us and tell us
your thoughts. If you joined us on Patreon, you get
early episodes, ad free episodes, bonus content, and I will
read the list of names of people who support us
over there, which is primarily why most people do it,
I think. And so a giant thank you shout out

(01:09:21):
to our wonderful patrons, which includes Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin,
Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara and Charlie. Thank you
all for being support as of our as it. It
really helps us do the show and we cannot thank
you enough for how much we appreciate what you do.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
You're like truly the best people, truly the best.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
Thank you so much to my team of people writing
in fact checking from Shane and myself. Thank you for
recording with me today.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
Shane, Hey, anytime, happy to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
Our social coordinator is Eva Wilson, and our audio engineer,
who is extremely good at making audio engineering, is Justin.
So thank you Justin for all the awesome work that
you do.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
Truly beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Of course, thank you all for listening. I think I
said all the things about supporting us, like subscribe, rate review,
tell a friend all of that steel friends phone and
subscribe to us for them. All of that works. Is
there anything I am missing or anything you like to
add before we wrap this one up?

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
No, not on my end.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
All right, catch us next time. We're gonna keep talking
about disabilities. But for now, this is all we have
to say. So this is Abraham and this is Shane.
We're out. Doya, you've been listening to why we do
what we do. You can learn more about this and
other episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.

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