Reframe: A Framework to Developing a Compassionate Care Instructional Model (With Special Guests)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Why we Do what we Do? Welcome
to Why we Do what we Do? I am your
sticking to my guns host Abraham.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hey, and I'm your We've always done it like this
in our science host Shane.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Actually, maybe I've used the sticking to your guns thing.
Maybe I need to switch that up. Well, it's okay,
we're here now. We are a psychology podcast. Thank you
for joining us. We're excited to have you here. Today.
We talked about all of the things that humans and
non human animals do, or a whole bunch of them
at least, maybe not all of them, but like a
good amount, I hope. And we're science podcast. I think

(00:48):
we have something special today because this discussion is going
to have three guests who just wrote a new book.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yes, they wrote a book called Reframe, and we will
share the links in the show notes and whatnot. But
we're so grateful to have these folks on here. So
for those of you who an't know, the book is
called Reframe, and it's written by Meg Solomon, Jen Ferris
and doctor Maricira and they are incredible people, powerhouses in
the field of behavior analysis and really pioneers in a
topic in behavior analysis around compassionate care that I feel

(01:16):
like people are missing the mark on as a general
as a whole, so like, it's nice to see them
doing this really cool, amazing, wonderful work and just really
getting ahead of the curve. And I say ahead of
the curve, but you'll see that maybe we're not so
ahead of the curve. It's like maybe something that we
should be paying attention to. But the interview is really great.
They're really good people, they're really fun people, and we
were glad to have them.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
If you're listening to this, then you're not really in
behavior analysis or you don't really know what we're coming
from here. I will say this, there is very little
jargon in this discussion, almost none, possibly none at all.
There are some references to things that you'll hear. We
talk about WEBA. That's the Women in Behavior Analysis Conference
for people who aren't familiar with that acronym, and there

(01:58):
may be some others that you'll hear. For the most part,
I think this is we use pretty accessible language, and
I do think that the overall lessons embedded in this
discussion are pretty not uniquely specific to behavior analysis, meaning
that I think that this should apply broadly to really
all fields of all disciplines and fields of study, or

(02:19):
at least some of the lessons there. And I think
the critiques embedded inside of them are derived from experiences
within their work and behavior analysis. But the message I
think is applicable broadly.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, and we'll talk about it more at the end
of this, I'm sure. But like the big messages that
like we're humans and that we're humans in the human
services field, turns out surprise shocking that we're humans. And
I do think that, you know, the conversation comes across
very humanist, very humble, very just kind of like, hey,
you know, we love what we do, but we've got
to do better.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, And if you're joining us for the first time,
this is kind of a weird one to come in on,
but I hope that you enjoy what you hear today.
And if you do, and you would like to support us,
and you haven't already, there are several ways that you
can do that. You can join us on Patreon that's
our sort of club member cool kids group, but you
get some bonus content and early ad free content that
sort of thing. If you would like to not support

(03:15):
us financially, you can leave us a rating and review,
like and subscribe. Tell a friend. I'll talk more about
the ways you can support us at the end of
this discussion. But we would be remiss if we did
not acknowledge that it was Freedom from Fear of Speaking Day.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Ha.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes, what a time to be alive right now, huh folks.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Indeed, it's also I Forgot.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
Day, which I think for me is every day.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, what day?

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (03:39):
I Forgot?

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Who am? I?

Speaker 4 (03:42):
Is?

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Second half of the year day. In case you weren't following,
we just passed the summer equinox, the summer solstice. We're
headed into the steady decline toward winter again.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, Well in Florida we're just getting
too hotter times.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
I mean, I guess the world is too. It's also
Special Recreation for the Disabled Day.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
Fun. It is World Sports Journalists Day, it is It's also.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
World UFO Day, which I kind of love that.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Okay, I didn't know that was the thing that existed.
We did do an episode on UFO's UAPs whatever it was,
the whole thing. You can check out there. It was
It is Clean Beaches Week. Don't we wish that was
a thing? We could all have.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
I was just at the beach yesterday and I admittedly
it was pretty clean, but also I wish more beaches
were clean.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
It is Eye Safety Awareness Week.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Very important, go get your eyes checked and protect them
from damage. Yes, it is Helen Keller Blind Awareness Week.
It certainly it's physics to me, maybe both blind and
def Have you ever done an episode on hell Keller?
You know, I don't think so. And it is kind
of interesting because that is a unique case of learning

(05:02):
where you have a reduced sort of sensory input. But
that would be kind of cool to talk about her more.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, maybe we'll do that one day. Yeah, add it
to the list.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
All right.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
It is National Unassisted Home Birth Week.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
It is also Disability Pride Month. That's fun.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, look at that.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
Happy July. It's important. Very good, very good. All right. Well,
as I said, we are here to talk about this
book that's coming out and interview the authors of that book.
We get into I think, the key points and take
homes or at least what they see as being valuable
important work inside of there, and then at the very
end we actually invite them to share their recommendations. We'll

(05:43):
do ours after we say our goodbyes to them, but
they do end by providing some things that they recommend
in the very same vein that we would, which is
that we recommend things that are typically not related to
our topic at hand, not like always, but usually. And
so they got to suggest some music and some TV
shows and some activities, and there's some good stuff there.

(06:05):
I think that's it as far as our opening remarks
before we jump into this. Is there anything that I'm
missing or you'd like to add before we launch into
our discussion.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
No, I think we can go ahead.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
I enjoyed this discussion. We'll see you on the other side.
All right, all right, I would like to welcome our guests.
We have Jen Ferris, Margaret Solomon, and doctor Maddy Serda.
So you guys just would like to give you an
opportunity to introduce yourselves, talk a little bit about your background,

(06:38):
and then we'll get talking about this book. I'll start
with you Jen, Yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
I'll start.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
I'm Jen Farris. I am the owner and director of
Sprout add Services. We operate in Western Massachusetts. I am
also a precision teacher and an adjunct faculty where I
teach single subject design at Elms College.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Awesome.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
Margaret, Hi, I'm.

Speaker 5 (07:04):
Margaret Solomon most noma's Meg.

Speaker 6 (07:08):
I am the owner and executive clinical director of ABA
Across Environments in Colorado Springs, Colorado, where we focus on
providing and embedding act throughout the practice and throughout everything
that we do, really leaning into a trauma informed lens
as well. I'm also a part time faculty for Western
Georgia University as well as ELM's College as if that

(07:32):
program is continuing, and I'm happy to introduce my dear friend,
doctor Maddy Lucy Sierra.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
Hi.

Speaker 4 (07:41):
Thank you, Meg, I appreciate that. So my name is
Matti Serta and I am a clinical director and owner
of a small agency in Lubbock, Texas, and really have
been in this type of work since two thousand and four,
against systems disrupting where I could, getting in trouble where

(08:04):
I could, and happy to finally be able to have
the conversations that I was having for so long and
people actually pausing and taking a moment to even listen.

Speaker 5 (08:17):
So yeah, that's me.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Awesome, Well, thank you all for joining us. I agree
that I think there's a new audience for this type
of discussion and a more receptive on it feels like.
So yeah, Shane'll turn it.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Over to you all right, So super excited to have
you all here. One of the reasons we want to
bring you all on is to talk about your new book.
We're so excited because you have this new book out.
People are accessing it, people are stoked about it. We're
getting a lot of cool feedback on it. But the
book is called Reframe, and so this is a new
textbook that's out that people are contacting, they're accessing it,

(08:51):
and I think it's a game changer for the field.
And so I wanted to talk to you all a
little bit about, you know, the topic at large and
what's going on in the topic and kind of how
people are or you know, like the overall topic of
compassionate care and behavior analysis. But I do want to
talk about the book as well. So I would love
for you all to talk about the idea or at
least the process for writing a book and writing a

(09:13):
book like this, because I feel like it is a
labor of love. I feel like it's a passion project.
I know that you all have put blood, sweat and
tears into this, So tell us a little bit about
the writing process, like how did you get this together?
How did you write it? Like what did that look
like for everybody?

Speaker 5 (09:28):
It was a long process, it was several years. So
I love to write.

Speaker 6 (09:35):
I don't know if you'll follow my Instagram across environments,
but basically every morning I wake up and I just write.
And it might be something that's relevant currently to the field,
and it might be something that's just been current to
like my environment. Sometimes I all reframe them to be clinical,

(09:56):
when in reality they're one hundred percent about like my
marriage or my sister, or.

Speaker 5 (10:02):
My mom, or my kids, sometimes even my dog, And.

Speaker 6 (10:07):
So I'll just like reframe it. But I still I
love to write, and Mattie also loves to write, and
so I started writing down just kind of like some
ideas of what I was thinking about.

Speaker 5 (10:25):
And when it came to the part of.

Speaker 6 (10:28):
Cultural responsiveness right and really what it looks like to
be a responsive practitioner, I thought often about many of
the works that I'd seen Mattie doing and conversations that
she and I had had about what does this look
like to be truly cultural responsive right? And I was like, well,

(10:49):
I there's no way that I'm going to be able
to tell that story the way that Mattie does, and
so I was like, can you can.

Speaker 5 (10:59):
You help me out here?

Speaker 6 (11:01):
And then it started kind of exploding, Like I would
say that like once, like Mati and I got together,
we were just kind of like, okay, when it came
to like pulling together the pieces and what all we
wanted to include, and then it became really overwhelming because
then we're like, oh my god, if we go into this,
then we're gonna have to do this. That's going to
be seventy pages just on that do we want to

(11:23):
do this or do we want to do it this
way instead? So I think that you'll find that there'll
be many additions to come because we still have more
that we want to include. But then when it came
to the data, that's when I was like, well, I
really think that we need to pull in precious precision teaching.
And that's where Jen came in, because when we think
about ascent based care, precision teachers were at the beginning

(11:47):
of that. They were at the forefront of what ascent
looks like, right, because you can't build fluency unless the
person is sent to the initial right and so that's
part of it, and so we're like, all right, well
that just made sense.

Speaker 5 (12:02):
And so Jen was in town.

Speaker 6 (12:05):
Several years ago and we sat and we had some
champagne and we were talking and I was like, hey,
Mattie and I are writing a book and we really
want you to do the piece on data and you,
like I didn't even finish saying it, and Jen was like, yeah,
I'm in. But then it still took us over a
year after that just to get it somewhere. And finally,

(12:28):
like I was talking to a colleague who lives in Lakewood, Colorado,
Eli Harwood, and she was at her one of her
book launch parties, and she was like, just get it done,
Just get it good enough to publish.

Speaker 5 (12:41):
And then you can do editions. How's that going.

Speaker 4 (12:52):
And Eli, for those that may not know or may
probably recognize her through her Instagram handle, is the attachment nerd.
So she does phenomenal work on attachment theory, which I
feel like is a big component that is missing.

Speaker 5 (13:09):
We talk about it quite a bit.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
Yeah, we do talk about it quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (13:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
And so then these guys saw so I already knew Meg,
and I knew of Matty from her work, and so
they attended a talk that I did BABA a few
years ago on fluency based instruction and Matty in so
if you know Matty in true Maddy's style, raised her

(13:34):
hand and asked a very poignant question, to which the
entire panel that I was presenting with turned and looked
at me to answer said question, which I don't remember
exactly what it was, but it was something along the
lines of are you pushing learners to just respond faster?
And I was like, well, and you know, apparently very

(13:56):
eloquently answered this question about fluency based in true and
why we use fluency based instruction, and as you're chuckling.
As a precision teacher, we get these questions all the time.
And apparently I got the job from my answer because
the question about joining the book came quite shortly after that,
and I became the reframe data and research nerd. I

(14:19):
think then in there bringing the kind of data elements
into it, and.

Speaker 6 (14:24):
I would say too, like our writing process was also
unique too, yes, and the way that we write is
all very different and unique. So we didn't want it
to be a book where it's like, Okay, this person
writes this chapter and this person writes this chapter, you
hear our voices embedded throughout, and we really wanted that
to be something that was different than what most people

(14:49):
were currently used to, right.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
I think that's like so valuable, And that's something that
is really cool about the book is like I've seen
where you know, you have like a textbook that is
a collection of chapters and not necessarily like a book
that is co written. Yeah, you know, I feel like
it's cool to see that it is co written and whatnot.
So one of my favorite things about the book, and
I think this is really important because I think this
goes back to like the disruptor style too, is that

(15:12):
there's a whole portion of this that talks about the
history of behavior analysis and why that is so important.
And I guess maybe you know, we're we're in a
space now where behavior analysis is. I don't think it's
any different than any other time, but it does feel
a little bit more turbulent than it has, at least
since I've entered the field. I've only been in the
field since about twenty ten, So if it was more

(15:32):
turbulent back then, I can't say, but I would say
right now it feels a little bit turbulent.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
It wasn't. I got into the field two thousand and three,
it wasn't. It's more turbulent now than I have ever
I have ever seen it. Yeah, yeah, we're in a
generation of disruptors, right like by nature, this is this
is who we are, This is how we all came
into the world.

Speaker 4 (15:51):
You know, I.

Speaker 6 (15:53):
Guarantee you the majority of us at right now have
formed or been on some sort of like protest.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
I was in my firstly that was six, I wanting
in DC holding hands as we saying we are the world,
right like, and I'm not alone in that, right. This
is the generation that we were kind of brought up with. Yeah, sorry,
you were asking a question. No, no, no, it's beautiful
and I think we disrupted it weird.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Well, this is your this is your platform, right like,
I want to make sure you've got that. So like,
as disruptors, I think one of the things that does
come up is history, and I think that you know,
it's like one thing to kind of say today, this
is what we need today.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
But why did you feel like the book needed.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
That, like that linky section on history to kind of
talk about where behavior analysis was at and who were
the influencers like why why did that feel necessary for
the book? Just so folks know, can I take this one?

Speaker 3 (16:42):
You know, I'm like, I think it's important because anybody
who is a student of behavior analysis should care about
our history and our rich history. I don't know if
this is exclusive to the precision teaching community, but I
find it most when I am in the precision teaching community.

(17:04):
We are very, very familiar with our history. We talk
about our history, we talk where it comes from, we
are embodied in our history. We discuss it on a
regular basis. We are obsessed with it. Let's be real.
That's fair, Okay, Okay, yes, I don't find that in

(17:25):
lots of other spaces. And I think that that actually
is doing our field of disservice. And the reason for
that is it's becoming less scientific. And I know that
I sound like the you know, my friend Matt says, like,
you know, the muppets that are like up in the
balcony like at you know, but like, I think that

(17:45):
we are losing some of the science and what we
do because we're not talking enough about the history. And
so if you look at our history, everything that we're
talking about has in fact been there this whole time.
Nobody is actually talking about anything that wasn't there. A
lot of what we quote is Skinner is Lindsley because

(18:09):
Cooper No is Cooper right? Who was quote who was
a student of Lindsley, who was a student of Skinner? Right,
who was a student of Don Behar, who was right?
Like social validity is mont Wolf, Like we're not.

Speaker 6 (18:24):
Talk about Lovos and why it's important that we talk
about Yeah.

Speaker 5 (18:29):
Our history.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Right.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
If we don't talk about our history and we're not
clear about it and we don't understand it, a lot
of people give us a lot of flack, right, and
they should, right, So like let's own that, but like
you have to understand why we get the flack that
we get. And if you're not clear about our history,
you can't be clear about where to go, right.

Speaker 5 (18:52):
And I feel like too, everybody's always like where's the
research for that?

Speaker 6 (18:55):
We're literally laying it out for you exactly, and this
isn't noo that we're doing. It's literally just reframing, hence
the name, what we have been doing in a way
that is, in our opinion and clinical expertise, more scientific.

Speaker 5 (19:13):
We rebust robust than much of what I see that's.

Speaker 6 (19:17):
Diluted in clinics today because you see right now as
an oversimplification of the application of our science, and that's
dangerous and one hundred percent causing harm.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
And often people just don't want to read it right,
and so like it's not that the research isn't there because.

Speaker 6 (19:35):
It makes them feel something jen and it's behavior analysts
we can't feel Yeah, that's not relevant.

Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, well, and I think too.

Speaker 4 (19:45):
In our course work. Unfortunately, the practice of self reflection
is beat out of us. We talk so much about
all of these stimuli and you know, antecedent variables in
an environment, but the most important, or probably the most
impactful one when we walk into a space with a
learner is us and our behavior and how we're influencing.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
And so it goes.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
It's not surprising that as a field we are not
comfortable looking at history through a self reflective lens, because
what it forces us to come to terms with, or
come face to face with, is that many of us
have unfortunately not been able to separate the work that

(20:34):
we do from the person that we are. And so
anything that becomes a critique, whether done in love or
whether done because we want to see our field do
better becomes an attack on us personally. We're not able
to just sit and look at this subjectively. Unfortunately, I
don't know. I just see sometimes it's almost like the

(20:54):
coursework process and what we're training up future behavior analysts
to become almost cult like, you know, don't critically think
this is how it is, like, just follow steps A
through Z. Don't think about anything outside of the box.
Everything fits in this nice, neat little box. And that's
not accurate. So we talk a lot about that in

(21:16):
the book Self Reflection. If you don't know who you
are in and out of this field and this work, or.

Speaker 5 (21:25):
If you identify only as a behavior analyst, you're.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Going to get lost. You're going to become very lost.

Speaker 4 (21:31):
You're going to become very burned out, and you're not
even going to know why you get up every single
day and walk into whatever clinic doors you're walking into.

Speaker 6 (21:39):
Yeah, and I think that's true because we talk a
lot about what many in our field to call mentalistic, right,
because if we talk a lot about inner behavior, but
what Mani's talking about, this type of self reflection, the
self awareness is scinarian. It's not new and so that
was what Jen's hope was with really pulling in all

(22:02):
all this research because the way Maudie and I write like,
I'm like, literally, this is what I had to go
through with the book. This is what took me the
longest is I would say, I know that I read
that somewhere. I'm going to put in parentheses site to
remind myself to find the citation for this one.

Speaker 3 (22:19):
And I was like, I got it, it's here, because
that's the way my brain works. And I think what
ends up happening, right, is what happens is we passed
down more instead of passing down research, right, And so
what happens is like I had one of my clinicians
recently was like, well, because I always did it that way,
and I was like, please don't ever say that to
me ever, because that should never be. And again, I

(22:42):
don't know some of this is my training is like
the rat is always right, the learner is always right.
It should never be I always did this because I
did it this way before. That's just not how science lives.
That's not how science works, right, And so like we
talk about dogma, we talk about it's lore right, like

(23:02):
it is we do it this way because this is
how the person before us taught it. That's not science, right,
And if we want to be scientists and we want
to have the science of behavior analysis, that's not what
it is. And so I think part of it is that,
like when we see this influx, I know, for me,
this is what it is. I believe in the science

(23:24):
of behavior analysis. I am a scientist of behavior. I
think of myself as a scientist practitioner, and I am
horrified when I see sometimes the things that are presented.
You know, we have this influx of people coming into
our field that are very well intended and very smart

(23:44):
and are studying lare and not science on Hot Troson,
and it worries me that we're moving away from a
science into something that I don't believe is what where
we came from, right, And so the way to do
that is to remind people, hey, you know, it's not

(24:06):
just about that guy and this guy. It's also about
this girl and this girl, right, and these people who
did this research that is is rich, that the lore
that you're hearing is based off of research, and that's
how we were taught to do things. And anyway I've
been on the soapbox. But I think the spirit of

(24:28):
that is like, if you want to call our field
of science, then you better act like a scientist, and
scientists operate from research and data and not assumptions and lore.
That's not how it works.

Speaker 4 (24:44):
I think we also have to remember what LeBlanc said
in her I think twenty twelve or twenty thirteen article
where she reminds us we are not the only discipline
with proven research, and we have got to address the
egocentrism of you know, the universe revolves around ABA, and

(25:04):
there are other disciplines in healthcare, nursing, even leadership, you know,
OBM policy, where there are light years ahead of us
on some of these things that people are saying, Oh,
this is this is radical, this is new, this is
not proven, this is not evidence based.

Speaker 5 (25:22):
Well, I think we have practition.

Speaker 6 (25:24):
We have friends and colleagues f alleagues right who are
facing those same things, like Camil Kolu, and we reference
her quite a bit because she pulls from the medical
community and again in this field that's very much more
well established than ABA, and she still gets.

Speaker 4 (25:42):
Fine for that. We're forgotten. Yes, you know, there this
whole like sudden wave of trauma and formed compassionate. I'm
seeing all of these names being thrown out as like, oh,
this person is like leading the charge or they've been
the first person. I'm like, absolutely not. Camille was doing

(26:02):
this way anyway.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
I will not let her name be forgotten because she's
a woman, and.

Speaker 6 (26:11):
I think that's why we wanted to make sure that
we put her name first in the book when we
started writing about the trauma piece of our self evaluation
and reflection.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Absolutely, I think that's an excellent point. I love that
in this I think is going to lead to the
next question. Is you know, we're talking about being a
science forward practice. We're talking about effectively not just using
data and making decisions, but also pragmatism, right like making
it effective and the benefit for humanity and making it

(26:43):
socially valid. And these are conversations that I remember having
early in my behavior analytic work and early in my programs.
And you know, I want to go back to a
comment that was made that the you know, any criticism
of the field feels like a personal attack, right There
are folk out there who are skeptical of criticisms, and
I want to say not skeptical of our of emerging

(27:06):
science or skeptical of you know, compassionate carrying and that,
but skeptical of criticisms because they feel like they're the
quote unquote old school behavior analysts, which Jen, kind of
what you just said was like, we're going back to
skinarian work. We're going back to stuff that has been
done for fifty sixty seventy years at this point, right,
So what do you say to those folks that are

(27:26):
feeling one offended that anybody would criticize something that they love,
but two that are you know, I would say maybe like,
you know, waving the flag that they're doing behavior analysis
and they're missing the mark across all of our history. Like,
what would you say to those folks, those people that
are skeptical of kind of the approach that you're saying,
which is, hey, we're scientists, we're behavior analysts. We've got

(27:48):
to do better, but we've been doing this too, and
we should probably look at what we've been doing for
all these years.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
I think we have to apply our own principles right
that are in the book, Like are they in a
position to receive any kind of conversation? Because if they
are nowhere in a position to sit with that discomfort
that can go outside of our you know, scope of competence.

(28:15):
You know, this person may have unresolved attachment wounds, they
may have so much of a learning history that has
led them to this point of any kind of feedback,
any kind of correction, is a personal attack. And what's
that phrase? You know, accountability can feel like an attack
when one is not ready to hear. And so I'm

(28:38):
more probably now as I'm getting older, in my like
silly and Murphy phase where I'm just gonna keep my
mouth shut and my face is going to do the
talking with a raised eyebrow, with a Okay, maybe in
my earlier years I would have been really like trying
to hammer in. They're like, no, we got to talk

(28:59):
about this, like you got to look at this, you
got to research this. But if people aren't ready, you know,
that's one of the most compassionate things that we can
do is not engage in those same behaviors of like
I'm going to force this upon you and you're going
to sit and think about this because we can't. We
can't control someone's thoughts and self reflective behaviors. All I

(29:22):
can do is control myself and my response and validate
that what they're feeling is valid and things can be
true but not right if that makes sense. And so
when people come with those kind of rebuttals, it really

(29:43):
depends on the way they frame that interaction and conversation.
That's going to tell me, are they in a position
for this to be a reciprocal conversation same thing as
like in that therapeutic you know, establishing of that therapeutic
rapport and that real relationship with the learner. Are they
in a position or this can become a reciprocal conversation

(30:05):
and engagement and interaction, because if not, then I'm just
going to do what we normally do in a clinic
setting and just be there and wait for that moment
when they're like, I need help. This is still not
working out for me. Why is this okay? Well, we
do have to go through that hard history and those
things that make you uncomfortable. Are you ready? Have I

(30:27):
built trust enough with you that you're willing to walk
down that journey to look at what our field has done?
Not you, but by proxy you do practice some of
these things because we're taught. So it's we can't rush
this process unfortunately, and.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
I think it's about sharing our own experiences. I think
it's like telling somebody else, like I did do that,
you know, I because that's how I was taught. Because
when I got into the field, everybody did that. That
is what people did. And I made a conscious effort
to myself and to the field that I didn't want

(31:17):
to do that anymore. And like, was there any mal
intent there? No? Does that mean that harm may have
been caused? Yes, And that's allowed to be true. People
don't go into situations and say, hey, I'm going to
cause harm today, not most people. Right, there's a quote
that doctor Hanley says that our field always came from

(31:40):
a place of compassion. We were always compassionate in our intention,
but that doesn't mean we were compassionate in our approach, right,
And so we all got into this because we wanted
to do good work and help people and so a lot,
you know, I think the hard part is that like
we do have a younger generation that's like you never
should have done that. You weren't You weren't there, bro

(32:01):
Like we all like we were there, and that's how
our entire field did things. Everybody did it, and everyone
did things different. I didn't learn a low boss model.
I wasn't smacking a table and yelling no, no at somebody.
I didn't learn how to do that. But there's other
things I learned how to do right, And like you
get to decide today what you want to do even

(32:24):
twenty minutes from now. We're all people who get to
decide what we do or don't want to do. But
we can't, like Maddy said, for somebody else to decide
that for themselves. What we can share. I know what
I learn and I often share in our workshops, A
very difficult journey with a learner. And you know why
we did it. It Actually it worked the real talk,

(32:45):
it worked, it was efficacious, the data did support it.
It did work. And was it the right thing to do?
We thought so at the time. It does. Science teach
us different things when we're willing to look at it. Yeah,
but you got to be willing to look at it
and just I do you want to do something different?
But you can't make that decision for somebody else. Only
they can do that, And everyone gets to a different

(33:06):
place right at a different time.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
I was on.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
These guys were there way before I was, And I'm
fine to say that they actually engage in things in
practice now that I don't always do.

Speaker 5 (33:18):
Yeah, I mean, I would say that's true. It is true,
and I'd say and I.

Speaker 6 (33:24):
But I think too, for my journey to get to
where I was was different and it was more complicated.
And what Moni's saying is that this learning history that
we all carry with us is why we are ready
to change our practices or why we are not ready
to change our practices. Right, And when we look at

(33:47):
this from again an act perspective, there's an inner behavior there.
So this inner behavior is very much something that we
are either wanting to change with values and committed action,
or that we want to avoid. And so many times

(34:09):
and I've been here, right, which is I want to
avoid this feeling of discomfort and the best way to
do that is to shut it all off and run
through the motions of a high quality, fidelity session where
I might go through a two hours long extinction verst
and I'm not going to care because I'm completely disassociated.

(34:30):
And for many people, for them, that looks compassionate. And
I think for me, when I became a mom and
I was dealing with my son, and I was like, oh,
my god, if anybody did this to my child, Mama
Bear would come running up and clawing anybody's eyeballs out.

(34:56):
And for I remember too like I was a really
going through an extinction verse with my own child, and
my husband was like, do you feel.

Speaker 5 (35:05):
Anything right now? And I was like, oh, my god, yeah,
what am I doing? And here I am.

Speaker 6 (35:15):
Assuming that I'm not causing harm because my intent is
unharmful and I'm thinking, no, this is temporary and that
it's going to get us to meet and ends that's
going to eventually contact reinforcement for him, that's greater than
this current moment. And the reality is is that that's
one hundred percent false, and that's the folk floor that

(35:37):
we've been spreading.

Speaker 5 (35:40):
And that's why I was like, I can't do this anymore.

Speaker 6 (35:43):
If I can't do this with my own child, there's
no way that I am going to recommend that another
caregiver put themselves through this and their.

Speaker 5 (35:51):
Child through this. Yeah, And that was the reality of
it for me.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
I also feel like this is where that cultural responsiveness
piece is so important when we talk about the history,
because if you've ever attended some of my workshops, I
will push back against Skinner and Skinnerian principles as well.
And Jen brought up a great point that we started

(36:17):
from compassion, But as an individual who is a marginalized individual,
I push back on that because I think we also
have to redefine what compassion means, because you're not just
pulling in your learning history, You're pulling in privilege. Depending
on what group you are a part of, you're pulling

(36:39):
in social power. And so unfortunately, even looking back through
history to the origins of our field, some of us
might have called it compassion, But as a marginalized person,
I would push back and say, was it compassion or
was it privempathy? And for those who aren't familiar with

(37:01):
doctor Kenneth Hardy, I highly recommend that you look into
his research and his works because privempathy is essentially empathy
of the privileged, and empathy of the privileged is a
way that we see individuals who are in a higher
social power demonstrate and I'm air quoting empathy by saying

(37:26):
by comparing their struggles with the struggles of someone in
a marginalized group. And so that is not compassion because
what ends up happening is through this mentality or mindset
of privempathy. They engage in these interventions or these practices
where it's like, I'm going to make you more like me, yes,
so that you can contact the reinforcement that I contact.

(37:51):
And it's not accurate because that person will never contact
that level of reinforcement because they're not part of a
privileged group. And then another thing that ends up happening
is this missionary mindset, right especially knowing who predominantly is
in the field, and this missionary mindset ends up turning

(38:12):
into sort of this like therapeutic colonization of you.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Look at you.

Speaker 4 (38:17):
You're broken, you are you are, you're struggling, you you
have all of these deficits. Not only am I going
to help you, but I'm going to help you come
to know our you know, Lord and savior aba uh
you know. And so it's this very missionary mindset, and
but we do it under the guise of compassion air

(38:38):
quotes and so compassion without cultural responsiveness is going to
be And I'm going to be the first person, y'all
I think the same old Oh. I know it's rare
to come out of my mouth, but unless I'm only
with Megan Finn and so I think that this is
another reason it's so important to look at our history

(39:00):
not only from a compassionate lens, but from a culturally
responsive lens, because many individuals in the field, because we
know what the demographics are, there is a veil that
influences and shades that perception and that perspective of what
we're doing in this field. And so if we don't

(39:21):
have a clear definition of compassion, we still risk engaging
in harmful behaviors. And remember it's impact versus intent. Sure,
the intent in that person's own mind is I'm doing
a good work, But the person on the receiving end
is like, no, you're not. You know, you're driving through

(39:43):
my village that is starving, and it's a you know,
missus Baird's bard truck, you know, bread truck, but all
that's inside of it is a billion Cooper books. You know,
you're not really feeding me or meeting the need that
I have. You're trying to just turn me into something
that is more comfortable for you.

Speaker 5 (40:04):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, it's save your behavior, right, I mean, that's at
the end of the day, that's what it is. And
I'm so glad that you brought this up because I
think that like having spent time in the book and
reviewing it and look and you know, reading it and
participating in it and stuff. You know, one of the
things I think that you all do such a great
job of is pressing people to think about this stuff

(40:25):
to like pressing people to self reflect, pressing people to
really dive into their own inner behavior and really think
about like, oh, is this really what you think it is?
Or is this you stepping in from you know, a
privileged group to make these decisions, or you know, any
of those things. So I guess maybe a question I
would have for you all, and I think kind of
like to piggyback on this this particular topic, is you know,

(40:46):
you all have this perspective that is I think valid
and important in groundbreaking. And I don't want to say
groundreaking because I don't think I think it is groundbreaking,
but I don't think it's like it shouldn't be new
to the field. But for some folks it is, right.
And so now you're going to have the contingent of
behavior analysts that go ooh compassionate, aba ooh, I love

(41:07):
this quote unquote buzzword. And now you're gonna have people
that you know are going to want to grab the
book and go do the thing that you just described,
Like they're going to go and say, like I'm going
to drive through the village, I'm gonna do the savior
behavior thing. I'm gonna I'm gonna be compassionate, and they're
maybe missing the mark. So how would you recommend folks,
And it's may be not an easy question to answer,

(41:28):
how would you recommend folks taking the book and go
and preventing that from happening, preventing the missionary mindset from
happening by you know, like thinking that they're going to
take this book and they're going to go do all
the good work, you know, and kind of like you know,
preach the gospel of behavior analysis through it. Not that
and that's just like that's not you know, that's it's
one of those things like when you have a book
and it gets into the world, like it's it's hard

(41:49):
to control what happens from there, right, But like that's
I guess maybe what what would your recommendations be for
folks that are contacting it for the first time and going,
I love compassionate ABA, and you know, it's the dunning
Kruger where they think they know a little bit and
they don't know anything. So like, what would you recommend
for folks on that level?

Speaker 4 (42:13):
I would say that, at least for me, I can't
speak for our other two authors. The purpose of this
book is laid out in the first chapter, which is
self reflection, right, and so our hope is that we
are planting seeds and people will walk away with this
book with more questions. Yes, not necessarily more. I know

(42:38):
what to do, but a I have no idea what
to do, and that's okay. And I now know what
I can start with and develop something that I also
think is really missing from our field, and that's critical
thinking skills.

Speaker 5 (42:57):
I was hoping you would say it. I mean, we've
stripped out.

Speaker 4 (43:05):
Who we are as human beings, like the ability to
think critically and make a decision that may not it
may go against the current of what the lure has
told us. You know, we we have stripped compassion, we
have stripped patients, we have stripped kindness and these mentalistic things.

Speaker 6 (43:29):
We've created a totally different culture and removed any sort
of individual culture from the community.

Speaker 4 (43:39):
Yes, absolutely, And we were just talking about this, you know,
based on, you know, interacting with students in current coursework.
We see this in the supervision world. I suffered through
the trenches and I had a horrible supervisor, and they
never did these things for me. And instead of saying

(43:59):
I don't want that for you, I'm going to do
this differently, we just perpetuate this generational trauma onto that
next round of students of you got to go through
these trenches too, You're gonna have to suffer too, if
I had to suffer, And as a parent, I just
think about if people would stop for a second and

(44:23):
look back at their own childhood and some of the
things they experienced with their parents or their caregivers and
now becoming parents saying I don't want to repeat that.
I want to become the parent that I needed as
a child, not the one that I had. Necessarily, it's

(44:44):
the same thing. And so why are we so eager
to perpetuate generational trauma and harm? Yeah, I wouldn't do
it or think it was perfectly acceptable to do in
any other context of our lives, but yet in the
field of ABA it's like a badge of honor.

Speaker 5 (45:03):
Oh my god, the war wounds so gross.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
Yeah, Yeah, warrior culture.

Speaker 3 (45:08):
Right.

Speaker 6 (45:08):
I would say one of the things that we do
in our agency is that not only does everybody do
the self assessment and creative their own self bit as
recommended throughout the book, but we very much talk about
how this is a practice and you are going to
make mistakes, and you are going to fall off the wagon,
and you're going to need to find a safe place

(45:29):
to come back to. And for us, that's the practice
of living within your values and acting within your values right,
and recognizing that sometimes that's not easy.

Speaker 5 (45:39):
Sometimes you're going to experience conflict.

Speaker 6 (45:42):
Sometimes it's going to be discomforting, right, But then being
able to reach out to somebody who is a supportive
supervisor or person or peer to lean into to help
carry you through that is really powerful something that we
have set up in our agency and we're really proud

(46:02):
of doing. But I would also say that nobody in
our book is then or nobody in our book, nobody
on our agency is looking at the book and then saying, Okay,
now I'm going to write a program for a learner
based on what I've read from this book, because that's
not how the book is designed.

Speaker 5 (46:18):
The book is very much designed to be person centered.

Speaker 6 (46:21):
And while that man we look at that as usually
the learners and their families and the stakeholders. I'm talking
about you. You're the person at the center of behavior change.
So if you're wondering where it needs to start and
how you're going to prevent this pillaging of the system,

(46:42):
right as you like invade communities and tell them you're
supposed to do it this way and not that way,
and you're wrong and you should do this, and why
aren't you doing man training with your child because that's
not normal. And so it's really important that we recognize that,
like everybody, when we look at the history of our science, right,
going back to that, we have animals that we were

(47:04):
working with initially.

Speaker 5 (47:05):
Right, those animals didn't come from families.

Speaker 6 (47:08):
They were raised and researched farms basically, Right, So we're talking,
we're trying to compare some of those very simple things
to people who carry generational trauma that's proven fact, who
have thoughts and feelings that's a proven fact, who have

(47:30):
their own cultures, that's a proven fact. And then we're
trying to oversimplify it. So what we're trying to say
with the book is stop trying to do that, and
please turn the mirror towards yourself first. And if it
doesn't feel comfortable for you to change your own behavior,
it's not going to not cause harm if you're trying

(47:52):
to change somebody else's behavior.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Yeah, I think that's reasonable.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
I just want to add, like I think that person.
I feel like I got great supervision. I have like
a cohort of mentors that I can call like literally
right now, like amazing people and be like, hey, like
what should I do about this? And they'll be like,

(48:17):
you should try this, and you should try this right,
And I feel a responsibility to pass that along, you know,
Like I feel like I have this working. I am
a resource junkie, and so like in the spirit of
like stand on my shoulders, right, like that that's our job,
right when you become the age of behavior analysts that

(48:38):
we all are here, right, it's our job to pass
that along. And I think some of that is the
spirit of this book is like we have done this work.
We have these tools that a lot of other people don't.
And that first one is reflective practice, Like you cannot
go into somebody's home, you cannot implement behavior change protocol

(48:58):
without you know, checking yourself. And so the book is
designed to start exactly right there. So like, you can't
play the compassionate card unless you actually have done this,
because you can't go through the book. I mean you could,
but you would actually skip the chapters like we're saying
you don't. We're not going to give that to you

(49:19):
unless you do this. And so like you can say
that you're going to do this because you've elected to
skip those chapters in our book. But like from our perspective,
that starts page one with self reflective practice. It's like,
first you have to look and recognize your own biases.
How are you going to check those at the door
so that you can show up with those over here

(49:40):
acknowledging that you have them because you do everybody does,
and engage in that. That is how people engage in
that in all areas of life. You have to recognize
your own racist, ablest practice to be able to really
do that. And so the book is designed to do
essentially that and say, we have all these years of experience,

(50:03):
we want to share that with you, and here's here's
how you can can get started.

Speaker 4 (50:08):
Chapter one is the first aid kit. It's into the tools,
because the rest of the chapter is going to surface
wounds for everyone, and some of these many of these
wounds are absessed. We've slapped enough band aids on it.
You know, the skin has healed over, the skin has

(50:30):
hardened calloused. And as you go through the rest of
this book, if you skip the first aid chapter, you
are going to be dealing with oozing infected absess wounds
and not know what to do with them. You'll misplace then, yeah, yeah,
or you will think that you just need to leave completely,

(50:51):
or that you've been you know, you are not a
fit for this field, or that you you know, are
not going to be able to save a bok of people.
And really what we're hoping is that you'll just save yourself.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Yeah, or you're going to cause harm, right, The reality
is is like, or you are going to cause harm
on somebody else because you're going to show up with
your wheel barrow full of manure and dump it on
somebody else, right, Like that's the other part of it,
is like there is you, right and who you want
to be in behavior analysis, but that's where that impact

(51:27):
comes into play too, right, Like if you don't dump
that wheelbarrow out before you show up at somebody's front door,
that wheelbarrow gets dumped out, and like, that's what we're you.

Speaker 5 (51:37):
Should use that manure to tend your own garden.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
Absolutely. Yeah, the harm will be caused, right and so
unintentionally because you haven't tended to your own garden, darling.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
And I think it's important too that people that readers
understand too, like you're not going to be perfect after
this book.

Speaker 5 (51:59):
Far from it, my god know, and I hope nobody
thinks that we think that we're perfect.

Speaker 6 (52:04):
You actually might be worse off initially because I need
everybody know that I've yet I'm a yeller.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
That's really good respective practice, Meg, Yes.

Speaker 6 (52:21):
And I try every day and I'm still in therapy
because I have to be otherwise I will implode.

Speaker 5 (52:28):
We aren't perfect practice. Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (52:33):
The whole point of this book is so that when
you do cause harm and wounds, you know how to
repair the rupture, not slap a band aid on top
of it with the dirt digging into it and the
you know, the germs just being shoved down into it
to then abscess. We're hoping that people will recognize heal

(52:54):
their own old infected wounds and then have a first
daid care it because you are going to still wound
and harm, that's just human nature. But you then now
have a repair kit of how do you heal ruptures
with your colleagues, with yourself, with your learners and families.

(53:19):
How does that happen? And so that I think that's
one of the things that maybe we haven't like said
out loud very often, but Chapter one is where you
learn how to heal those ruptures, not the person, the
rupture that we created. And that's something that I even
tell my own children. People are going to hurt you

(53:42):
and wound you. It's just up to you to decide
who is worth receiving those wounds from.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
And I think one thing that has resonated with me
in having this discussion is going back to like taking
that and tying that back to something that Jen said earlier,
which was like, we're too right. And one of the
things I think about constantly is best available evidence. Right
when we practice, we practice with best available evidence, and
what better evidence of practice and evidence of our like

(54:13):
of our work. Then you know this is something that
we have done, This is something that somebody has reported
to us, This is a harm that may we may
have caused. This is evidence and maybe an onus for
us to change behavior, right, Like, hey, this this was
not a good situation. This was a bad situation to
be in. So here's us taking that evidence along with
best available scientific evidence and going forward to improve. And

(54:35):
I feel like I love that. This is like kind
of the point of the whole discussion was really going,
this is a practice, This is not perfection. This is
not a recipe book to solve everything, right, which I
bring that up because there's so many you know, comments
and quotes from like the chef's metaphors and whatnot, And
I think that's like it's such a great thing to
kind of go back and go, this is not You're
not going to take this and go I'm an expert.

(54:55):
Now you're gonna take this and go, oh now I
know where to start with new evidence to go forward
and change and new paths to alter my own behavior
as a practitioner.

Speaker 6 (55:06):
And that was kind of the hope behind the case
studies that we put in the book, which was to
show like, oh, here are these mistakes that were all
really common, like most of us have made these mistakes, right,
That's why I put them in there. These are mistakes
that I've made, right, and now after this reflection, here's
how I can change my own behavior, which then changes

(55:28):
the outcomes.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (55:30):
Yeah, I mean my grandfather, anytime that any of us
have made a mistake, he was of a baby that
you learned something. And that's the whole point of this
book is did you learn something fantastic? Our hope was
to really show it's okay to make these mistakes.

Speaker 5 (55:50):
This is not an errorless learning book. This is very
much a book of you will make mistakes.

Speaker 6 (55:57):
You have made mistakes. Now let's change. Let's change your
behavior from what you have learned.

Speaker 4 (56:05):
Yeah, even just modeling, discussing and admitting mistakes. Because our
field is notorious for punishing even you know, admitting that
we get it wrong or that we make mistakes, we're
very punishing to that. There's like this air of elitism
that you know, you're a good becoming when you don't

(56:28):
make any mistakes, And I'm just kind.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
Of like, you're not.

Speaker 5 (56:32):
You're a human.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
How do you learn?

Speaker 4 (56:35):
Isn't isn't that part of.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
The style American culture is kind of punished as admitting
to making mistakes. Definitely right now, But also I think historically.

Speaker 4 (56:45):
Yeah, and our hope is like to model that this
is not a you know, when you make a mistake,
it doesn't always have to be a punishing consequence of
like told, just so you know.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
We're out, Yeah, you're out.

Speaker 5 (56:58):
You're you're a crappy.

Speaker 4 (56:59):
Behavior your analysts, as opposed to like, ooh, let's sit
with that mistake, like talk, talk me through it, walk
me through it, you know, because there's so much context
that goes into why we make those decisions and why
maybe at that moment in time it felt like the
right decision. But how do we teach people to think
critically and to widen their scope of looking at everything

(57:22):
before making a decision if we aren't comfortable walking through that.
So I love that Megan Chin put in these case studies,
and we're just very raw and authentic about that, because
we've got to become honest and raw and authentic as
a field, because we're doing a lot of pretend play.
You know, I feel like we're playing BCBA and playing

(57:45):
research practitioner or playing researcher or you know, journal article writer.
We're playing house as opposed to like, no, this is
this is the real deal, Like let's talk about how
really nobody knows what the f they're doing. We're just
doing the best that we can.

Speaker 5 (58:04):
Because we don't share in our behaviors enough.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Well, we also don't share our data enough, like to
be so honest, is like too many conversations happen in
the absence of looking at data, and so like chart
share for reals, these you guys, you know that a
lot of chart shares happen where we're like not show sure,
like when we do them in front of everybody, everyone's like,
let's all look at our perfect charts, but like a

(58:27):
lot yes, yeah, your parent is very happy over here,
but like seriously, so how many clinicians will be like
what should I do? And I'm like, well, let's start
by looking at the data. Every supervision, it's like, pull
up the data, let's look at it. That should be
your starting place for like what what we're doing right,

(58:50):
and like having that be the place, and people are
uncomfortable with that, And so what happens is the program
and the behavior analysts get paired as like the same thing,
but like a program can fail and it doesn't mean
that the behavior analyst is a failure, and like it
gets intertwined as like the same thing, and it really

(59:12):
like doesn't doesn't wonder on someone's self esteem. I don't
know how we fix that, but I'm just putting this
out to the world to whoever is like listening, that
like those things aren't the same, y'all, Like it does,
it's not the same. And if you're following the data,
you're a really good behavior analyst. And so like programs

(59:33):
fail all the time, researchers programs fail, My programs fail,
makes programs fail, Madi's programs fail, everybody's programs fail, and
that it doesn't mean that you're bad. Sorry, I brought
us to church there.

Speaker 4 (59:49):
But you know no, I think we can thank journal
publications too.

Speaker 3 (59:56):
I'm gonna not say anything because people'll never get to
the next question I say anything about that talking.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
I'm just going to say, for those that are listening,
look at journal publications for failures. Yeah, if the data
doesn't show or back how wonderful ABA is through success,
we can't really publish that. Sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
So, I mean, they don't like to publish my data.

Speaker 5 (01:00:21):
So because you can't read your data.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
And they don't want to admit it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Perfect, we actually just publish an episode recently about pre
registering studies as a way to help get failed experiments
actually published because you've essentially committed to this is the design,
and as long as all the methods are solid, then
whatever you end up with is whatever you end up with.
And if you end up with like an unconfirmed hypothesis,

(01:00:51):
a null result, or you did not produce adequate change
in the way that you had hoped to do, so
that's useful information, like knowing what not to do is
extremely used full And we were talking about those mistakes
and the precision teaching sort of community we've long embraced
the Instead of even calling them mistakes, we call them
learning opportunities because like, that's what that that's what happened.

(01:01:12):
Is like you now can do better because you were
able to execute on something, have it not work, and
now do something differently next time.

Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
We learned a lot from an error pattern, but quite
a lot from an error pattern.

Speaker 6 (01:01:23):
Yeah, I learned hormonally when my learner starts for period
because of an error pattern.

Speaker 5 (01:01:31):
So it's valuable inful charts, they really are. I'm so
proud of these charts.

Speaker 6 (01:01:36):
It also shows the effectiveness of when act started then
a returned to baseline whenever somebody stopped using ACT with
this learner, and then when we started using ACT again.

Speaker 5 (01:01:46):
It's gorgeous. So if anybody wants to publisher chart, it's ready.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
I like how we just pivoted to a podcast about
good data and data. My work here done.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Well, Arian, Did you have any questions, thoughts, things you
wanted to add?

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
You know, I always like to in conversations like these.
I think it's useful to point people to where they
can find this book, if there's a way to connect
with the authors, to ask questions, to follow up, if
you have upcoming presentations, if you're doing any kind of
book tour, then you know, just letting people know more
about the product so they can check it out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
So we've got some stuff coming up. We're so excited.
I know that you all are going to be at
WEBA doing an autograph signing event on the twenty third.
On the twenty fourth, there is going to be a
book launch party, which is going to be awesome, So
you'll be able to spend time with the authors and
drink and be merry and have all that. And so
if you're at WEBA, spend time with these folks because
they are going to do some incredible things there. And

(01:02:57):
then do you have any workshops coming up? I know
that's something that you do often, so if you want
to push that out a little bit.

Speaker 6 (01:03:04):
We're actually doing a workshop at WEBAB, which is why
we'll be there initially. So on the twenty third, the
three of us are going to be doing a supervision workshop,
which we don't actually specifically talk about supervision and Reframe.

Speaker 5 (01:03:15):
Which will come in the second edition.

Speaker 6 (01:03:17):
This is one of the things that we just needed
to get through, so we're really going to talk about
what that will look like, essentially, like how do we
then provide supervision within this kind of reframed lens? And
then body, why don't you share some more brain children
that have come from this book?

Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
Oh gosh. So I will be presenting in South Carolina
in October and introducing some of the caregiver parent components
of Reframe, which we're not sure if it'll be in
second or maybe third edition.

Speaker 5 (01:03:51):
I mean, I feel like all of these just do it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:54):
I'd be like, all of these could be standalons. But yeah,
so really pulling in like what that looks like working
with caregivers and making sure, we kind of reframe this
concept of we're not creating baby BCBAs out of parents,
Like if you're giving a parent, you know, fifty something
goals to work on when they get home after a
forty hour work week. It's not really compassionate, right, and

(01:04:17):
it's not really realistic. So that is kind of where
we're moving towards. We are hoping to get our supplementary
materials completed here pretty soon. We've had some folks kind
of reach out with interest on utilizing this as a
textbook in coursework, so we kind of want to ease
the response effort and create finish creating out those supplementary

(01:04:40):
materials so that we can hopefully start to reach young
aspiring behavior analysts, you know, before they get to that
point in their field work where they're like, I have
what am I even doing here? Why did I choose
this career? Why did I use this path? And I

(01:05:02):
think what else? Jen, You've got some things too on
the radar, So I'm going to pass the mike to you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
Perfect. So we're working with doctor Thanos Pastenos over at
the University of Kent on being co contributors on a
special edition on Compassionate Care with Emerald Publishing, and also
in case I haven't plugged the precision teaching community quite
enough already, I'm also the co VP of Programs over there,

(01:05:29):
and we're introducing a really cool Sunburn to sweater Weather
virtual webinar series that will start the beginning of August,
kicking off with an amazing writing workshop with Adam Hoffman
and then goes through biweekly webinars through mid October, and
I'm doing one on providing Compassionate Care with precisions, so

(01:05:52):
I'll be diving into those kind of chapters from Reframe,
looking at how to blend compassionate care with precision teaching.
And then we're also working on some international things that
will be happening later this fall, likely returning Megan and
I were at the University of Kent earlier this year,
and so we anticipate a return there with the three

(01:06:15):
of us, hopefully in November. So we'll keep y'all posted, and.

Speaker 6 (01:06:21):
I will say, if y'all haven't seen Jen do her
Compassionate Care with Precision presentations and workshops, they're really great
and you have some great takeaways from it too, which
is awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:06:31):
I will say.

Speaker 6 (01:06:32):
Each month we host with the Cross Environments an Act series.

Speaker 5 (01:06:36):
We're doing a year long act series.

Speaker 6 (01:06:38):
Again we're focusing on practicing it yourself and then what
that then leads to for outcomes for learners and their families.

Speaker 5 (01:06:45):
So that comes out the third Thursday of every month
and we love doing that one. I think that might
be all that we have planned for this year.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
It's a few things.

Speaker 5 (01:06:54):
Oh wait, note Manti has one other thing.

Speaker 4 (01:06:56):
Yeah, a couple of things. Sorry. We're working with Adobo
to get a webinar with them with their monthly Aziaba organization.
So as soon as we have those dates solidified, we
will make sure to post that on our social media
and website. And I completely forgot. I also have a
CEU that people can access on my Instagram and it

(01:07:20):
is actually pulling in that cultural response. And his piece
in relation to ascent based care, not only are we
seeing kind of that buzzword of compassion, but also the
buzz phrase ascent based care. And so I talk about
the nuance of ascent based care for BIPOC families and
how ascent based care is not something that we can

(01:07:40):
just apply, you know, kind of cookie cutter across the
board because of different levels of privilege and oppression. And
so that is the CEU that I have right now
out and available. And then yes, who wants to shout
him out? The newly minted doctor Jared Van.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Yes, Yes, congratulations, he.

Speaker 5 (01:08:03):
Broke the sweetest love letter.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
I mean, I'll never I don't think any of us
will ever miss a chance to give a big shout
out to doctor Jared Van, who was gracious enough to
write the forward for Reframe. So if you're not following
doctor Jared Van, please do so.

Speaker 5 (01:08:22):
Oh shame, we need to change that on the cover.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
We can do that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:25):
Yes, doctor Van, he is phenomenal. He is a pretty
rad educator. Talk about cultural responsiveness if you want to
really really amp up your knowledge and learning around culturally
responsive practices.

Speaker 5 (01:08:44):
And precision teaching.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
Yeah, and if you want to see him on a
great panel in the Sunburn to Sweater Sweater Weather series,
he is on. We have a panel together on that
on both those topics.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
Well, you know, the first act book, Acceptance in Commitment
Therapy or Acceptance in Commitment Training. It was published in
like the mid nineties, and there was an enormous amount
of pushback when that book came out and around the
whole movement around ACT that came, and it took a
good two decades or so, but I think in the
last I would say five to seven years in my experience,

(01:09:21):
it seems like there has been a much broader acceptance
of ACT and implementation of ACT. So maybe maybe the
Compassionate Care Book is a similar thing where all you
have to do is wait twenty years, guys, and then
it'll be it will be fully there. I'm just kidding.
Hopefully it's fast.

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
Think we're about a decade in so maybe there's only ten.
Maybe there's ten.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Maybe it's only ten ten years into the reserve so far.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
And things are moving faster, So I think I think
we might even be I think we might be closer.
I think that's I think that's where you have like
you folks, yeah seven and a half maybe, So that's
where you folks, like you know, doing the disruptive work.
You've got Jared doing the disruptive work, so like you've
got all the stuff happening. So I think now is
the time that's like right for I think behavior analysis
is looking for a change. I think that the field
at large wants a change, and I think that this

(01:10:07):
is I think that we're at a good spot right now.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
So yeah, that's our hope. And as Jared said, this
is a love letter. This is a tough love love letter.
And if we did not believe in what we were
doing and believe in the principles of this science, we
wouldn't have written this book. So as harsh or hard
or uncomfortable as some of these aspects might be, this

(01:10:30):
is from a place of love and compassion.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Calling in absolutely you love something, you've also taken a
critical lens to it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Yeah, absolutely, all right, is there anything else you'd like
to add? Any final notes? We'll make sure that all
the information that you just shared about your talks, your workshops,
all that stuff's going to be in the show notes
as well. We'll make sure that gets out the folks
so that we've got that. I'll follow up with y'all
and get that information too, so we've got the most
accurate information.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
Oh, you know, we do. At the end of each
of our episodes, we recommend some things. They're usually just
non it's just not related to the topic at hand.
But I always forget to ask guests, So I like
to recommend movies and TV shows. Shane will usually recommend
a book or experience, but he also recommends sometimes movie
and TV shows and a lot of music. So if
you all have a quick thing you'd like to recommend,

(01:11:24):
then that's always a I think a fun thing to
end on with with our discussions.

Speaker 5 (01:11:29):
I have a couple of things. Yeah, sure, listening to
this song.

Speaker 6 (01:11:33):
Do y'all know the band royal otis No have a
song about right now called moody y'all? It is my
anthem for the summer. So I finally recommend that one.
I also recommend there are a couple of TV shows.
One very much increases my anxiety level, so I have
to watch it with caution. And that is your friends

(01:11:55):
and neighbors, which makes me feel like I'm I don't
do this, don't do this because I'm a very honest person,
and so I'm like, you're just living a lot. And
then I also like Murder Bob because it's I can
turn off my brain for.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
A hot second.

Speaker 4 (01:12:13):
Awesome, Oh my gosh, something not related I would say
after this podcast, I would recommend and encourage everyone go outside,
take your shoes off, walk in some grass, enjoy some nature,
turn off your phone, turn off, get your eyes on
something real in front of you and just be for

(01:12:37):
a minute, just five minutes.

Speaker 5 (01:12:40):
Jen rin yo ku yet.

Speaker 4 (01:12:43):
And then I also want to recommend a show shrinking
on Apple TV.

Speaker 1 (01:12:49):
Oh yeah, some board.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (01:12:53):
It is such a phenomenal show, and I think even
being in the field that we're in, there are just
some pieces of it that make you kind of go
huh and self reflect. So and it's it's Harrison Ford,
and he's this grumpy old psychologist, and I mean, who
doesn't love a grumpy old Harrison Ford. So anyways, he

(01:13:15):
keeps using this phrase raw dogging it in like the
absolutely correct. I highly outside and then.

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
Watch that show great love that nice.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
Oh man. A recommendation for something that is unrelated. This
is like really random, but it's summertime in New England,
and so if you have not tried wealthyed oysters, I
would highly highly recommend trying them and pairing them with

(01:13:50):
a really crisp brute champagne already there. It's a very
good way to go about it. They're super delicious. Yeah,
I think that that would be my recommendation. Yes to nature,
some really good music. I am a hippie at heart,
so I like love a good dead set. That's my

(01:14:13):
personal favorite. Yeah, are you a spreadhead too? You know
they're doing a training tour here in Red Rocks. No,
that's not my vibe. But I hope that you love
that would be here too.

Speaker 5 (01:14:26):
You know that's not my vie.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
I'm not I'm not Southern, so I'm like a you know,
I'm a fish girl, a dead head. But yeah, my
my daddy got me into the dead at the ripe
old age of five.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
So that's my uh, jam bands, but not playing, is
what I hear?

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
Yeah, not twaying. Yeah, I'm not brass.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
Yeah no, all right, Well, thank you those are really fun.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
Awesome, Thank you all so much for being here. This
was so great, So thanks so cool.

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
Yeah, we appreciate you all. And yet thanks great time.
I have a great risk to your weekend and the
rest of your weekend.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Thanks guys, all right, thanks again to them, to our
whole group of people for joining us and discussing their book.
I will say, you know, one thing that sort of
stood out to me, and I felt like there wasn't
really an appropriate time to interject, but they talked a
lot about the first chapter of the book, having a

(01:15:26):
lot to do with this idea of self reflection and
critical thinking, and they also talked about well, I guess
where I want to go with that is, to me,
that's what skepticism is, right in a way, I think
what they're doing is providing a good skeptical toolbox for
moving through the world with an attitude of someone who
is what I think is the defining characteristic of skepticism

(01:15:49):
and being a skeptic, which is critical thinking and self reflection.
And so I actually love that piece of it a lot,
and that they spent so much time on that because
and we'll talk more about We've talked about critical thinking
in the past, We're going to talk about it more
in the future. And I think it's because we, I
think are a skeptical podcast at least we really certainly
try to convey that and what that sort of means.

(01:16:11):
And we actually have an upcoming mini or maybe it
already published. I'm not sure that talks about that that
very topic of skepticism. That was something that stood out
to me in a little bit. I felt like it
was there was not really an appropriate place to jump
in with that, but I was like, I feel like
that's what we're talking about here, and I want to
acknowledge that, Like, to me, the idea of someone who
is like quote unquote skeptical of their approach is maybe

(01:16:34):
not embodying what I would actually think, like instead, I
would call that being resistant or even maybe denying, whereas
skepticism is. I think what they're doing, what they're advocating for,
is the critical thinking piece and the self reflection piece.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
Yeah, I think so too. And I also think I
love that the because I got to spend a lot
of time with this book and with these folks, and
I think that I love so much that there is
a I don't want to say I don't think forgiving
is the right word, but I do think that there's
this state, there's so much of a circumstances view inside
of this, like this idea that like, you're not going

(01:17:09):
to be perfect coming out of this, You're going to
make mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes, and the biggest
thing is understanding that you've made a mistake and go
forward with new information, right, Like I think that that
is something that they I want to be really clear
about this too, Like they live by that. Yeah, Like
they have a sa dou correspondence around that that. I
don't think that a lot of people do. I think
a lot of people pay lip service to like, oh,
people are allowed to make mistakes and da da dah.

(01:17:30):
I think they really do this and do this well.
And so it's just really great to hear from folks
that live that live by that code, they live by
that practice. That felt really good.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, you know, I don't know if we
ended on where people can find this book by where everywhere,
Like it'll be in Barnes and Noble and Amazon and
all that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
So right now, yeah, if you go on if you
go on Barnesnoble dot com, like it's not in the
cause it's it's more of a textbook format, so it'll
it won't it probably won't show up in like like
in the big box stores specifically inside the store, but
like Amazon, it's on six and Center Publishing right now,
it's on It's on a few different places, so like
you'll you'll be able to find it in those in
those spots.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
Okay, great, perfect, and that is currently available right now,
like people can go purchase it. Okay, cool, episode is out.
You can buy this book, yes, and you should awesome. Well, yeah,
I think those are sort of my my thoughts and
reflections on that is just it was cool to hear
them just they do. I feel like one thing that
that really stood out too in this discussion is just

(01:18:31):
how much they build off of each other in the discussion. Yes,
they really use each each other's sort of points and
arguments to then advance the conversation, and it feels very
collaborative in that way, and I felt like that was
kind of a cool and I think very I want
to say accessible, but I'm just like, I feel like
it's easy listening if you will, like you can kind
of just be there with it. Yeah, because the conversation

(01:18:54):
flow is just feels so natural and it progresses, it
doesn't It's not cyclical and repetitive that I think a
lot of conversations end up being sometimes. So Yeah, it
was just another observation I had about how that went.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
Yeah, they absolutely compliment each other, like intellectually, personally, like
they really got to figure it out.

Speaker 1 (01:19:12):
Cool. Yeah, I'm excited to check out that book and
excited to have given the opportunity for them to talk
about it. Is there anything else to add or wrap
up before we head into some recommendations for ourselves.

Speaker 2 (01:19:24):
I Mean, the big thing I would say is just
make sure you support them. They're good people, they're doing
good work. Support them, uplift them. They're doing great things.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
So and at the very least, I mean, you know,
just learning more about what they have to say, even
if you aren't necessarily in the exact position that they're
sort of talking about, even if you're not necessarily in
agreement with a lot of the things they're talking about, like,
just listen to it and if you still disagree, like
then that is a thing, like we can have that conversation.
Or if you just don't even know and you're just like, well,

(01:19:52):
I'm not really in that field or that line of work,
but I still think there are pieces of this that
are going to be effective at allowing you to sort
of I'll reflect and learn and take something else away
from it. So I'd say, just just check it out,
you know, do so on whatever capacity. They mentioned that
they have some social media accounts, like you can just
check out some of the work, the things they're posting
there and learn some things that way. So that allows

(01:20:14):
it to I think work for a broader audience. Yeah,
absolutely cool. All right, Well, let's recommend some things I
like it after these ads recommendations, I'm recommending a song.

(01:20:41):
It's I don't even know if I am recommending the song,
but I am recommending this song.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
I think you're maybe recommending to give it a listen.

Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
I'm recommending to give it a listen. So this is
a song called the Things We Tell Ourselves in the Dark.
This is the new Between the Buried and Me song,
which I believe is off of an upcoming album that
they're out soon, and it is definitely the weirdest thing
they've ever done. And I will say, you know, most
of the time in the past when they've put out
songs that I was like, that's weird and I don't

(01:21:11):
know what to think about it. That sometimes that ended
up becoming one of my favorite songs by them. So
I like metal. I like hard rock and heavy metal
and all kinds of metal. But this, and the part
of the reason I like Between the Buried Me so
much is because of their history of being a very
prog metal sort of band.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
This is pretty weird for them, and I would say
this is weird even by their standards.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
Yeah, even by their standards. And I think that it
also does not fit very neatly into a box of
what you would call metal, Like there are parts of
it that are heavy, but this is not a very
heavy song at all. Actually, so it is. It is
pretty strange. So I'm recommending to give it a listen.
Maybe you will connect with it, maybe not. But it's

(01:21:56):
called The Things We Tell Ourselves in the Dark by
Between the Bury and Me. They have a music video
out now. You can check that out. It looks to
me like someone had a lot of fun directing AI
to make a video. Yes, but I could be wrong
about that. Maybe someone handed the whole thing. But anyway,
that was that's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
Yeah, it's super interesting stuff. I like it, but I'm
still like, I mean that processing, you know what I'll say,
I'm processing it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:19):
Yeah, that's what I'm doing with I think that's right.
I'm also processing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
I'm going to recommend a book. It's the first book
I've ever read by this author, and I have thoughts,
but I do think that at the very least, it's
a good exercise in thinking more critically about the world
around us. And so the book is called Talking to
Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell, And the idea is that it's
really kind of like talking about how one we really

(01:22:47):
don't know what's going on with people when we talk
to them, too, we don't know how to talk to people.
And three we're really bad lie detectors in general as humans.
So there is some really cool stuff in there. They
he does use some stories that are pretty pretty intense,
So he does use case studies around Sandra Bland, around
brock Turner, like, he uses those as like some examples

(01:23:08):
of like horrific modern crimes that have occurred and like
and how just like kind of like the nuances of
those crimes. They're a little bit it's a little bit
unique in that regard. He does talk about Sylvia Plath okay,
and how she took her own life and all that,
So like there are some really interesting kind of case studies,
and he does tie this narrative together really well using
science and studies and all this stuff. But it made

(01:23:31):
me really think a little bit differently about how we
interpret stranger interactions and how we really don't know people.
So at the very least it's worth reading like that,
But there are parts that are a little bit difficult
because the crimes are pretty pretty rough.

Speaker 1 (01:23:43):
So okay, yeah, is this a long book? I just
assumed it was a shorter book. No, okay, it's very short.

Speaker 2 (01:23:48):
I think I read it in like two days.

Speaker 1 (01:23:50):
Okay, well for you it could still be like a book.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
Well, it's also like very like easily consumable.

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:23:58):
I think like he writes in very late person terminology,
so it's not like he doesn't talk over your head
in this book at all, which is really nice.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
Okay, cool, I'm curious. I definitely like critical thinking, and
I do like being challenged and particularly in my assumptions
and thoughts about relating to other people in the struggles
that they have. So yeah, great, this will do that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
This will do that a good way. Okay, good, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
All right, awesome. Well, so the things we tell ourselves
in the dark, the song by Between the Bury and
Me Talking to Strangers, the book by Malcolm Gladwell, if
you would like to tell us about anything related to
those two things are more importantly anything related to the
discussion we had with our guests Compassionate Aba, the reframing
idea embedded inside of that, the critical thinking of self reflection,

(01:24:40):
we're happy to here are those things. You can email
us directly at info at WWDWWD podcast dot com and
we're not going to pass on messages to our co host,
but we will have the contact information that they provided
in the show notes, so if you would like to
reach out to him via those then feel free to
do so, I guess. But of course, if you like
this episode and you would like to report us, you

(01:25:00):
can leave us a rating and a review. That actually
really does help us reach more people and continue being
a podcast. Even if you just click five stars and
then just move on about your day. That works too.
Reviews help as well, but just a nice five star
rating is great.

Speaker 4 (01:25:13):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:25:13):
You can support us financially by heading over to Patreon.
If you do that, you'll get early episodes that'll come
out a few days I'm ahead of the scheduled release
and without ads. And you can also get episodes that
are completely unedited at all. You get to hear the
unfiltered version of things that we say, which I don't
know if someone anybody wants that, but that is a
thing that you can get there. And there's some more
stuff as well, so you can head of verd er

(01:25:35):
Patreon that helps us out a lot. There's a good
group of people over there. We have a discord server.
I try and get on about once a week and
post some stuff there as well. Otherwise you can reach
us on the social media platforms if I hadn't mentioned
those already, particularly Blue Sky, but we're on other places
as well. And then thank you so much for my team,
without whom I could not make this show happen. So
writing in fact checking from Shane and myself, thank you

(01:25:57):
for recording with me today.

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
Shane, of course, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
Definitely a huge shout out to our group that was
with us today, all the members of that without whom
we would have just been talking to ourselves, which we
mostly do, but that's you know, it's cool to have
other voices as well.

Speaker 2 (01:26:10):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:26:11):
Emma Wilson is a social media coordinator. And then the
person who does all of the audio and particularly stitching
a huge amount of content together is Justin. So thank
you Justin for all your amazing work.

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
It makes it sound nice.

Speaker 1 (01:26:22):
Yes, yes, he does, all right. I think that's all
that I have. Is there anything that you'd like to
add before we say goodbyes?

Speaker 2 (01:26:28):
We got to shout out the patrons.

Speaker 1 (01:26:29):
Oh yes, we do have to shout out the patrons.
Oh my gosh. That's part of the reason I even
brought up the patrons, and so I could shout them out,
because that's another benefit you get from being a patron.
Thank you for reminding me. See, this is why I
need to ask if I forgot anything, because then I
otherwise do things like this.

Speaker 2 (01:26:43):
Because we forget today's today's I forgot day. So it's perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:26:46):
See that is exactly what happened here, But it was
just because I was so wrapped up in my own
thoughts about things. We appreciate you all so much, and
that is Mike, m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brienne, Sorry, Brian, Ashly, Kiara,
and Charlie. Thank you very much everyone for being supporters
for helping us do this show.

Speaker 2 (01:27:06):
Y'all are beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:27:07):
Anything else I forgot anyd not today?

Speaker 2 (01:27:11):
Not today?

Speaker 1 (01:27:12):
Okay, great? Thank you all for listening. This is Abraham
and this is Shane. We're out, so yah.

Speaker 5 (01:27:18):
You've been listening to Why we do what we do.

Speaker 6 (01:27:21):
You can learn more about this and other episodes by
going to WWDWWD podcast dot com, Thanks for listening, and
we hope you have an awesome day.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Reframe: A Framework to Developing a Compassionate Care Instructional Model (With Special Guests)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Reframe: A Framework to Developing a Compassionate Care Instructional Model (With Special Guests)

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal