Scientology, Allegedly

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
You're listening to Why we Do whatwe Do? Welcome to Why We Do
what we Do. I am yourclear host, Abraham, and I'm your
auditing host Shane. Where a psychologypodcast. We talk about the things that

(00:24):
people do and why they do them, and sometimes we talk about animals.
We talk about all kinds of stuff. It's really great, it really is.
I mean, I feel like thispodcast and being on the show is
scratched so many itches of curiosity forme, like what is this? Right?
Like I feel like a porky fromToy Story four. It's like,
oh, yeah, what is this? And then that's what this whole the
whole preface of the show is about. I love that we get to learn

(00:44):
so much and all the things thatwe do, and we have been doing
this for some time. Do youknow, in fact, why today's episode
is so special? I don't knowwhy is today's episode so special? Well,
for one, because it's about scientologyand you did a lot of research
to prepare in a awesome discussion aboutthis that I'm really looking forward to.
But for two, it's because thisjust happens to fall on the exact date

(01:06):
of our six year anniversary of doingthis show. So this episode comes out
on May seventeenth, and on Mayseventeenth, twenty seventeen was the very first
episode of Why We Do what WeDo? And six years later, here
we are the linear path to scientology. Yeah, that's what I mean.
This was the expected outcome, isthat we started with psychology ended with taking

(01:30):
Tom Cruise down. Yeah. Andif you just look back, it all
makes perfect sense. Yeah, allthe synchronicities are there. Yeah. And
as I said, it is Mayseventeenth, and although it is now unofficially
Why we Do what we Do Day, there are some other more official days
that we could celebrate too. Yes, it is International Day against Homophobia,
transphobia, and Biphobia, which Iam a strong advocate for. Like that,

(01:53):
yeah, huge supporter. Hooray.Also against those phobias. Yes,
yes, for the day that supportsbeing against those phobias. Yes, I
appreciate you clear find that we wantto make sure that we go clear in
our escon. It's also National CherryCobbler Day, like a good cobbler.

(02:14):
It's also National Mushroom Hunting Day evenbigger mm yeah, bigger, but whatever
mushroom you prefer. My favorites arelike hedgehog mushrooms a lot, big fan
of morals. Yeah, okay,I don't know. I don't know that
I have a mushroom preference, butI do just enjoy a good mushroom.
Yeah, that's fair. Woody earmushrooms are really good. Recommend those,

(02:37):
okay, yeah, yeah, earlierin dation. I like that, although
I will say, just as aquick side for people, it is National
Mushroom Hunting Day. You want togo and do that, that's great,
be very very careful. There arelots of poisonous mushrooms that look like not
to poisonous mushrooms. So if you'regoing to do this, or maybe you're
an experienced person, in which casegreat, have fun, but otherwise do
it with an experienced person. Donot eat mushrooms that you find growing out

(02:59):
of the ground. Yes, donot. It is National pack rat Day,
which sounds like my nightmare, butit is actually more the days in
celebration of getting rid of the NICKNACKIthings that you've collected that you know that
you don't want or need, andso in that case I am in support.
Yeah, I like that. It'salso National Walnut Day, which is
a really great substitute for like differentproteins and vegan meals. So man,

(03:23):
there's a lot of good food ontoday. We've got a cherry cobbler with
mushroom and walnut. All sounds reallygood to me personally, It's really great
day to celebrate. Maybe that's justtelling us that we need to celebrate with
desserts. Maybe that is a goodway to interpret that. And then of
course, as I said, itis happy birthday. Why we do what
we do? Turn six? Ourpodcast is going to first grade, hooray,
yay, so all the things.But yeah, let's get into our

(03:46):
discussion for today. Yes, So, as we were going into this,
and as I did some research,I wanted to ask the question what does
the American Rocketry program, the movieGrease, the Band at the Drive In,
and the Starship Troopers have in common? Well you will find that the
answer is scientology. So I don'tknow why I wanted to do this,
but it was one of those oneswhere I was like, this is the

(04:08):
thing that's like I feel like it'sever present, And as we kind of
got into it, we're like,ah, this makes sense. It's tracks
with the show. So your firstquestion is we'll get in some background as
of history, but we have toask the question of what is scientology,
and that in itself is nearly impossibleto unpack. Before we dive too much
into exactly getting into this, Iwant to make sure that we are really

(04:28):
clear that we are not out inthis discussion to attack the beliefs of the
religious aspect of the beliefs about scientologyor any religion really, and I think
the way that I would equate thisdiscussion and what we're going to have today,
because we are definitely going to takea skeptical scientific, psychological lens to
this, and we would do thatwith any religion, right, we would,

(04:51):
I think, look at it fromthat perspective and not and like we're
not ever saying don't believe in Godor don't believe in aliens, or don't
believe in whatever you sort of course, like we can't do that. You
don't. You have the right tobelieve in whatever you want, Just like
if we were looking at something likelet's take for example, the Catholic Church
that has had priests that have molestedchildren, like that's something that we would

(05:12):
criticize, and that doesn't mean thatanything about your faith is wrong that means
that something has happened inside of theorganization that sanctioned behavior that we're not okay
with, that people are understandably andrightfully upset about. And that is sort
of similar to what we're talking aboutin this discussion. Where you can believe
whatever you want to believe about scientology, that's fine, but there are things
that we need to address in herethat require a critical lens, a critical

(05:35):
talk through. Since the word lenstoo many times. Yeah, the way
to boil that down is like,you are allowed to believe what you believe
as long as it's not harming anybody. And what we're finding is that in
larger organized systems there's quite a bitof harm. And you'll see as we
get into it where this harm isoccurring and why it's worth kind of discussing
this thing because it is a setof behavior to people engage in. So

(05:59):
your personal beliefs, you're personal beliefs, when they become harmful to other people,
that's when it becomes an issue.So yeah, all right, So
at the time of this writing,on the surface, when we talk about
the scientology, it appears that scientologyis considered a modern religion where Others argue
that it's a cult, an allegedcult, I will say. Others will
state that Scientology is a quote,a multifaceted transnational corporation, only one element

(06:21):
of which is religious. And thatquote comes from Stephen A. Kent,
who's a professor of sociology at Universityof Alberta. He specializes in new religious
movements and has conducted studies on groupslike Scientology, but also the Children of
God, which is very clearly acult. Right, yeah, yeah,
there are definitely real cults that haveexisted and do exist. So anyway,

(06:44):
point being and talking about Scientology,it's one of those things where the name
kind of catches you off guard,and I think on purpose. I think
the intention was you take something likescience that has done a lot to try
and instill a reputation of being atrustworthy endeavor that produces meaningful outcomes and that
people can rely on for philosophical investigationsas well as actual clinical outcomes and productive

(07:09):
results in that sort of thing,and that term then got sort of co
opted to scientology, which has nothingto do with science at all. It
is not even remotely in the samerealm. And so don't let that confuse
you. It was just taking somethingthat was familiar in basically applying repackaging it
so that it would be appealing.You could simply call it z News tribe

(07:30):
of meeting emeter reading enthusiasts, andthat would be a perfectly good name for
it. That would be more accurate, probably, But anyway, scientology was
created in the nineteen forties, andas many people will have heard, this
is based on the writings of onel. Ron Hubbard. And if that
name sounds familiar, you may befamiliar with the box office smash hit no

(07:53):
sorry, box office bomb that wasBattlefield Earth starring John Travolta, And this
was Hubbard's work. He wrote that. So there's your grease reference. That's
how that's side in. But JohnJabalta is a pretty prominent figure in the
scientology church. Now. In nineteenforty nine, the first official work on
dionetics was published, titled Tarat Incognitathe Mind. Now, dionetics is like

(08:15):
another phrase for kind of like theworkings of scientology. So you're gonna hear
the term dionetics used sometimes interchangeably withlike scientology, but really it's kind of
like the belief system, the kindof the processes that occur within the scientology
realm. Yeah, as you cansee that. And this is as far
as religions go, very new withlike nineteen forties. Nineteen forty nine was

(08:35):
Dionetics. A year later, innineteen fifty Hubbard published Dianetics The Modern Science
of Mental Health, and things movedvery quickly from there, with the Hubbard
Association of Scientologists International being created injust two years later again in nineteen fifty
two, and the creation of theE meter, which we'll talk about a
little bit later, and then eventuallythe Church of Scientology becomes incorporated and is

(09:00):
the universally recognized religious stamp of approvalthe tax exempt status which had achieved in
nineteen fifty four. Yeah, Sofrom nineteen fifty and nineteen fifty four this
went from being kind of a publishedwork to an organized religion in the United
States. Yeah. The church alsowould go on to form other organizations like
Narconon, which is like an narcoticsanonymous type of program, the c Organization,

(09:24):
the Freedom magazine Criminon, which islike a criminal anonymous type of work
group like therapy group, as wellas the Personal Spiritual Freedom's Foundation. What
you're going to find and why scientologygets so complicated is it has like a
bunch of organizations that are Scientology likebacked a little bit like alcoholics Anonymous,
like AA is a religious group thatbacks it. It's a religious process.

(09:48):
Yeah, they've kind of taken thetemplate from other organized religions and kind of
made this work for them. Ireally like the name of Freedom magazine.
It does make me think of somethingcompletely different than scientology, though it does
right all right. So Hubbard he'sstill around at the time. He'd been
the person in charge of the churchfor pretty much since its inception and for
some time, and he passed awaya few decades later in nineteen eighty six.

(10:11):
So Shane and I are both nowin the world, yes, but
just just entered the world as asl Ron Hubbard is leaving it coincidence and
David Miscavige Miss cavena Miscavage, David, Misscavage, thank you for your help
with that. That seems a lotmore like how I would say that.

(10:31):
Although you can imagine those of youwho are not looking at the text in
front of you, because this isan audio medium, in fact, you
can imagine how it might be spelled. Then anyway, so David Misscavage is
named the head of the church,and this ushers in a new era of
Scientology practices, and I would imaginethis is where I mean, obviously it
had been building momentum up to thispoint, but I think there probably kicks

(10:52):
in the high gear right about now. Yeah, it kicks in the high
gear. It gets a little bitmore violent than like allegedly. Okay,
and I'm gonna say alleged, becausethe Church of Scientology is highly litigious,
so just be mindful of that.But there are many, many, many,
many, many anecdotal stories of DavidMiscavage like literally getting into arguments with
people and diving across boardroom tables andcrossbody blocking people and meetings and just beating

(11:16):
them up, which is like weirdbecause he's like kind of like a he's
got like a wolverine figure, Likehe's kind of short and like just like
solid muscle. It's like he's oneof those guys. Cool. Yeah,
there's a lot going on there.So throughout this time and kind of up
until current day, We're not goingto give like too much of a history
on this, but the organization hasbeen a center of multiple controversies, including
blockmail coercion, as well as violencetowards members who have spoken out or attempted

(11:37):
to leave the organization. There arelots of kind of very public celebrities who
have done documentaries against the church andhave spoken out against the church, and
there have been threats of harm andstuff like that along with that. Multiple
lawsuits have been filed either against theChurch of Scientology or by the church for
various reasons, including gaining tax exemptionstatus and threats that went along with that,

(11:58):
silencing former members, addressing tax issues, all kinds of stuff, and
it's it's a real mess to tryto figure out kind of the history of
it. And that's why I thinkit's less important to kind of talk about
that part and more about like whattheir core beliefs are and how that impacts
people around them. Do we needto say that they were alleged controversies and
alleged silencing and alleged tax issues orsomething allegedly should The thing is is like

(12:22):
there are very public cases that havecome out, and so like that all
that stuff is there, but it'sa really complex thing. And again,
they're they're highly legitious. But whatwe're trying to report on is just kind
of what we're able to find onthe internet based on information that they have
provided, let alone other organizations.So this is a synthesis of all that
stuff. Yeah, and I thinkit's it's probably not inaccurate at all to

(12:43):
say that like there have been therehave been a lot of lawsuits that have
both come from and been done byscientology or have been applied to and have
come from and that doesn't I thinkrequire any caveats, although I will say,
just as a quick side note,when I hear the word alleged anymore,
it's like people use it in sucha way that what I hear is

(13:03):
this definitely happened, but it's nota matter of public records, so we
can't say that it definitely happened,but it definitely happened. And that's that's
kind of what this is. Solike now knowing a little bit of the
history, I think before we getinto like some of the basic beliefs,
because this is going to take alittle bit of like suspending this belief as
we get into it, We're gonnalisten to some of alleged ads. All

(13:30):
right, now that you have youremeter in hand from that ad or maybe
it's on roots. Obviously you haveto order it so it's being shipped.
But anyway, one of the thingswe have not talked at all about is
what do scientologists believe? What isthis religion about? And although again we're
not criticizing people's belief, they canbelieve what they want, we do feel
like it's important to unpack a littlebit of what is happening inside of this

(13:54):
religion in our discussion about how whatwe're kind of building up too, I
think is being one of the centralreason that we wanted to talk about this
in the first place. Right So, according to the Scientology Newsroom, which
was one of their information sites,their primary belief is that humanity is generally
good and that quote spiritual salvation dependsupon themselves end quote, as well as
relationships and attainment of brotherhood within theuniverse. It's primary concern is the full

(14:18):
rehabilitation of the spiritual self, whichincludes capabilities, awareness, and certainty of
their own immortality. Now you hadme until immortality, but I mean,
I ultimately it doesn't sound that bad. And basically what this is saying is
like it sounds like a very spiritualthing. And in case you didn't pick
it up. The idea is thathumans are immortal and that our experiences occur

(14:39):
across multiple lifetimes. I feel likethat's a slight contradiction in terms, but
that's okay. Let's continue to impactthis a little bit more. Right.
Another important discussion point inside of thisis talking about the reactive mind and the
analytical mind. That sort of away that scientology breaks down their understanding of
humans and human behavior. And thereactive mind is the idea that our mind

(15:03):
absorbs all of our pain and trauma, and alternatively, our analytical mind is
responsible for consciousness and reason. Soour reactive mind stores distress and withholds information,
and the analytical mind doesn't have accessto that distressed information. It is
trying to essentially make sense of theworld pursue it in a logical, logically
coherent way. This is like notsuper dissimilar at all from Freud's breakdown of

(15:28):
the subconscious with the indigo and superego, except has had three parts in
this has too. I think whatyou're going to find here and what you
will see already is that we've alreadygot reincarnation built into this across multiple lifetimes.
YEA, the human soul is immortal, lives across multiple lifetimes, gains
experience as capabilities and all that.And also the human psyche is split into
these two things, the reactive mindand the analytic mind, where the analytic

(15:52):
mind is struggling and your challenges inyour life struggles because you have all this
trauma that's like basically blocking you upthat is going to come up later right
now. Another key belief is thathumans are full of endless capabilities and hidden
abilities that have not been realized.Their potential as assessed and evaluated through a
process called auditing. And I actuallyreally like this idea that human beings have
like endless capabilities, which I wouldmake an argument kind of falls in line

(16:17):
with behavior science a little bit thatlike, given the right environment and given
the right context, human beings canare capable of quite quite a bit.
So you're seeing kind of an amalgamationof all these belief systems coming together to
form this thing. Yeah, there'sthere's a level of appealing optimism inside of
this that like you come in andthey're basically like, look, you have
this mental constipation that's clogging you up, and all we need to do is

(16:41):
get you a little prune juice,some laxatives, you know, mind laxatives
if you will, Yeah, spiritualenema. Yeah, it's it's gonna flush
all that out of here. Andthen you have anything that you want to
do or be, you can door be. And I think, again,
the optimism is there, and Ithink that they're not wrong that Like
a lot of times people and Ithink, I think we've addressed this before

(17:03):
on the show, but I thinkpeople get really sort of locked inside of
their own expectations for themselves and thenthey have a hard time scene passed that
to what they then could potentially havetheir behavior be. So I think that
our science that is not scientology,is also pretty optimistic, as you said,
because we also see a lot ofroom for improvement and people, and

(17:26):
we often are able to see thoseresults realized and achieved. And so I
think that we have good reason tobelieve that that's the case. This is
a little more nebulous. It's notanchored to any specific behavioral measures or outputs.
It's more like you get the membershipcard that says that you've so maybe
it's not that nebulous. I mean, you get the card that says you're
there, but yeah, yeah,you get the new set of keys to

(17:47):
the new doors that you couldn't getto before. Admittedly, I didn't think
that I would have like I wouldfind any common ground with like any of
this, and like when they werelike, yeah, humans could do things,
and I'm like, yeah, you'reright, they could, Like Okay,
in a moment where it's like ohthat was Oh no, they're that's
how to get you. That's right, and most good lies, there's always
a nugget of truth and a lotof things. We want to just be

(18:07):
black and white that we disagree withthings so we hate them universally, unilaterally
and without exception. And I thinkthe reality is that everything is more nuanced
than that. Sure, there arecertain things that people that I fundamentally disagree
with that they get right, youknow, right that they'll occasionally I'm like,
yeah, I completely agree with wherethey're at on this. Like that
happens sometimes, and I think Ican appreciate the nuance of that. And

(18:30):
so even though I don't think thatI agree with a lot of the process
here, as you said, wecan get on board with this part of
it. So we were talking aboutauditing before I sidetracked us really hard.
During the audit process, the auditor, not the audit t but the auditor
is an individual trained to administer theirassessment. They meet with the person,
they get out their little emeter.They plug it up to you and stick

(18:53):
it in all the holes and wrapthings around you, all that sort of
thing. They don't stick anything inholes. I don't. Yeah, you're
holding like two soda can size likemetal things. Yes, you probably talk,
that's all it is. Yeah,yeah, And I think I'm gonna
give you a second here to elaboratemore on these because because yeah, anyway,
so they give you this emeator thing, they get you all hooked up,

(19:14):
and what they want to do isthey're going to gather They tell you
they're gathering readings about you, aboutyou as a person, and they're basically
asking you to confess things, mostlyconcerns, thoughts, feelings, but kind
of unload, just share things withthem. This is like, hey,
I'm your new best friend. Youcan tell me all your secrets. For
the right price. I'll keep thoselocked up and no one else will hear

(19:34):
them. And that information is recordedand stored indefinitely. And that's part of
the pre clear process. So you'regoing toward clear, but to get there,
you first have to be pre clear, like the TSA right exactly.
So essentially you're going into an auditbeing pre clear, meaning that you have
all this blockage, and then whatyou're trying to do is you're trying they're

(19:56):
trying to gather information so they canfigure out how to get you too clear,
and we'll talk about how you getthere accordance to their religion. But
to get to clear, meaning thatyou have any blockage, which means that
you can you know, engage asa human at your highest potential, your
highest capability. Okay, So that'skind of a core value that you'll find
within this. So there's the wholething about going clear as like a thing
that is almost synonymous in a waywith the process of being a member in

(20:19):
scientology or becoming exactly yeap perfect.Well, I need to know more about
these emeaters, Shane, Oh,yes, okay, So an emeater the
emeater they used to audit. It'svery likely if you've ever seen like a
like if for those of you whomight be like out and about in different
like major cities where a scientology placelike does exist, like maybe Clearwater,
Florida. But you might see likea booth where some like some members of

(20:41):
the Scientology Church will be hanging outand they'll have an emeater that they can
like audit you right then and there. Now, these emeters or electra psychometers
are used as an assessment process forthose interested in joining the church. And
you'll see them have signs. Sometimesit'll say like free test, free personality
test. That's you see a Scientologychurch. They're getting ready to audio.

(21:03):
What they are designed to do isthey're used to measure what's called electrodermal activity
or ADA, and the tool islikened to polygraphs like something like that,
where they essentially do nothing based onwhat they are originally proposed to do.
Like so they don't do the thingthat they say they do. They just
measure electrical output kind of kind yeah, kind of. And the FDA actually
labeled these as illegal medical devices.And make sure we're saying this not a

(21:26):
legal medical device, but an illegalmedical device. Important distinction, an illegal
yes, yes, and so anydevice that you see is going to have
a disclaimer that states that it isa purely religious artifact. Very important.
Yes, it looks like a videogame system with a console and two handles,
as you said, sort of smallsoda can sized handles that are attached

(21:48):
to wires, and that's supposedly howthey gather readings. And you may have
taken a free stress test as anotherway it's described. Yeah, I would
definitely have heard the personality test thing, but the auditor might describe it as
a free stress test. And ifyou've seen them on the street, that's
the thing that they're doing. Now. I found this description from someone named
Chris Schafsmeister who seemed like this isa biophysics person, and what he said

(22:11):
is, quote, an emeter isa wheatstone bridge, an electronic circuit that
measures electrical resistance relative to a standardresistance. And then he goes on to
describe that it detects something that theycall end grams. And in his description
I read as carefully as I could, there's a lot of science and math
that's a little above my head becauseI'm not a biophysics person. But essentially,
if you break down the physics andthe biology of how something like this

(22:36):
is supposed to work, his sortof final conclusion is that it is physically
impossible for something like this to dowhat it says it's doing by the very
nature of the fact that it's measuringsomething that is essentially intended to be way
too small to be detected and rangedin a way too complex of a pattern
for a machine of that nature todetect it. Also, he says,

(22:56):
our bodies are not wires and donot conduct electrical activity as a wire does,
and so hooking someone up to adevice of this nature and expecting it
to read their electrical activity as ifthey were a potato that you plug two
wires and does not work. Right, So the device itself is already kind
of scientifically proven not to work.Now, the other side of this,

(23:17):
I think is really important to remember, and this is something that gets used
later, is that when they're auditing, they're gathering information, and they're storing
that information indefinitely. This is theequivalent of going into a confessional and the
priest writing down everything that you're sayingit saying in that confessional booth and then
putting it in a file for later. Right, yes, right, So
everybody has that picture and in listeners, I imagine that you're probably picking up

(23:40):
where that might be a problem,because I've already mentioned the term blackmail,
but historically there have been some reportsof like that information being used to hold
people hostage within the church allegedly.Yeah, so if the goal is to
get clear, we have to askthe question what is clear and what does
it look like? What is thatstate of clear? And are you clear?

(24:02):
And the state of clear is I'mso glad you asked, Abraham,
is the status that follows specifically,anybody in the Scientology realm, anybody in
the Scientology Church can achieve clear aftercompleting certain clearing activities, which is kind
of nice objective tasks. I likethat. Laxative clear, laxative clear,
that's it nice and easy. Now. The idea is that your trauma and

(24:25):
your emotional stress which are held bythe reactive minor preventing or blocking you from
achieving your full potential, and assuch you engaging activities to clear the blockage,
which leads you to accessing your fullpotential. So again, very optimistic,
very helpful. But as you continueto remove these blocks, you can
achieve closer to a state of clear. I like that eventually it becomes so
clear that you are invisible to thenaked eye, like vising out here now,

(24:52):
going clear, is actually not justa one and done activity. After
you've reached clear status, you beginreceiving a spiritual status above clear, so
you can become, like I said, you go from invisible to like metaphysical.
I think yes. But anyway,you go so clear that you can
reach Operating thetan or Ot, notto be confused with Netflix is the OA,

(25:15):
which is a different letter altogether,very different. Yeah, but Operating
thetan or Ot there are eight levelsfully endorsed by the church, but the
Church is also discussed the possibility ofas many as fifteen stages of this.
Okay, and so, as youmight guess, you need to pay an
additional fee to take the courses toachieve each level of thetan Hood. Yeah,

(25:38):
so you are OT level one,OT level two, and we'll talk
about what the different levels are becauseyou can actually see what the course rundowns
are yea, which is kind ofinteresting. You can't see what's in the
course, but you can see kindof the series. Sure. Now,
the additional levels that were discovered afterl Ron Hubbard died have never been released,
and so the thought is is thatit might just be a way to

(26:00):
kind of keep people on the hook. But sure, we'll leave that now
strap in. When you reach OTthree, you begin to experience your full
self and get closer to Zenu,a figure within scientology's advanced technology component of
the belief. So part of scientologyis that they believe that this advanced technology
existed, exists, and existed,and that part of it was brought to

(26:21):
the planet Earth by Zeno. NowZenu is in the lore, is the
extraterrestrial ruler of the Galactic Confederacy.The story goes that he brought billions of
his own people, the TGAC,to Earth seventy five million years ago and
killed them with hydrogen bombs. Thespirits of these aliens attach themselves to humans
and are a part of the reasonwe experience spiritual harm or blockages or why

(26:44):
We're pre clear, why is thisimportant for the church? Well, you
cannot achieve OT three without getting pastquote the wall of fire, which is
part of the experience of the Thetan'swhich were the alien spirits, and a
course to learn how to break throughthe wall of fire can cost nearly nine
thousand dollars to achieve, just outof curiosity, do you happen to know
if the cost of these levels increaseswith inflation. I imagine they probably do.

(27:07):
I would think so. I dothink they're probably subject to the whims
of the market. Yeah. Anyway, here's a quick rundown of the known
just as a quick reminder, operatingthetan or theton levels or OT. So
you have OT one. This isthe first step toward becoming clear. This
is a small sum of two thousand, seven hundred and fifty dollars to pull
it out your savings. You're good. Now. If you invest that again

(27:30):
plus some you can for a fivethousand, two hundred and twenty five dollars
fee at the time of this recording. Who knows what the pressures of inflation
will do to this, but thatwill bring you to OT two at OT
three. As we said, thisis crossing the wall of fire into z
new territory, which is a sentenceI never thought I would say. And
that is for a small fee ofeight thousand, nine hundred and ten dollars.

(27:53):
And so now my quick back ofthe envelope calculations put us well over
sixteen thousand dollars or the cost ofone Honda Fit approximately of investments to reach
those levels of clarity. Yeah,and going forward, you've got OT four,
which is the drug rundown course.The cost is unknown. I couldn't

(28:14):
find a listing of that. OTfive is audited New era dianetics for ots,
OT six is solo n OTS auditingcourses. OT seven is solo n
OTS as well, and then OTeight Level eight. The final official endorsed
class is called Truth Revealed. Imean it sounds like, hey, like
you're getting into a secret club,but you just gotta pay a lot of

(28:37):
money to get there, right,I gotta say, honestly, you look
at these and you're like, well, I could swing that amount of money.
I could, Like, I wantto know what they have to say
up at you know, OT two, OT three, and like, I
feel like there's a certain level ofsort of like I can imagine someone who's
got the cash to burn looked atthis and it's like, I could have
elite membership in this club because Ican afford to ascend these levels so rapidly,

(28:57):
And I could see a certain levelof appeal of that. So maybe
someone who's very insecure, doesn't havea lot of direction in life, and
has a ton of cash to burn, maybe just recently came out of a
few big movies this thinking like Icould be an action star someday. Maybe
I need to be a clear actionstar. Who knows, and then you
start filming Mission Impossible. As aguess, I don't know who you're talking
about, Vin Rahims. Maybe yeah. As a quick summary, the idea

(29:22):
here is you do not reach yourfull potential because your reactive mind prevents you
from becoming clear or reaching that potential. Right, you are pre clear.
You're a pre clear failure. Andpart of the reason you're pretty clear is
because Znu, the alien overlord,killed so many of his people seventy five
million years ago, and you havean evil alien hitchhiker that's attached to your
soul, and so to go clear, you can take these courses to gain

(29:47):
spiritual healing with you know, justspend those thousands, tens of thousands of
dollars probably mean at least eight knowncourses to reach your potential. Makes sense?
Got it makes sense? Great?Got it? We got it.
Listen. Now here's the thing youmight be going that sounds a little absurd,
like as somebody who is an atheist. Sure that might sound absurd to
me when you read it like that, but you could do the same thing

(30:07):
about any story in the Bible.I mean, like truly, like when
you say stuff out loud, you'relike, okay, so God created humans
in himself and then got real sickof their shop and then set himself back
down as a different person, butalso himself. He could walk on water
and make bread out of thin air, and make fish out of thin air,
and make wine out of water,and then had people that he created

(30:30):
kill himself and also his son,and then come back and then everybody is
good. Like when you say thestuff out loud, and obviously I'm saying
in a satirical tone, it soundsridiculous, but it makes sense that people
could possibly buy into this because thisis truly no different than what you might
hear in other religions. I thinkthe scientologists would be happy to hear that,
And I think that you also mightbe wondering to yourself, why as

(30:52):
a psychology podcast talking about scientology thisweird religion thing, And maybe it makes
perfect sense to you, But Ithink we do need to get in why
we talk about scientology, But firstwe need to get in some ads.
Okay, we are back. We'vebeen talking about scientology, comparing it to

(31:15):
a lot of the world's religions.I agree with your point that although it
topographically does look different than a lotof the other religions that have relied mostly
on extra metaphysical figures, this onesimply relies on extraterrestrial figure sure, and
so there's not really a lot ofdifference in those, But there's actually a

(31:36):
more important relation between scientology specifically andpsychology that does not exist in the same
way across other religions. Right.So a main element of the Church of
Scientology is that they consider themselves ascientific community. So that's a big element
of this. They consider themselves ascientific community, and they have sought copyrights
for their technologies, though many oftheir publications and technologies have been deemed either

(32:00):
ineffective or harmful and have been rejected. So this is a really important thing.
You're not going to see a lotof like priests writing in scientific journals
to try to get their beliefs withinthat system published in like a scientific like
scientific literature. But Scientology kind ofstands out differently because they have actively tried
to do that. That is athing that is a thing to think about.

(32:22):
It gets worse, it gets worsejust as you prepare yourself. It's
a lot to kind of absorb.Yeah. So one of the reasons we
wanted to discuss this is because scientologyI'm not even sure allegedly is the right
a word here. This is prettyclear there is a blatant disregard for psychology
and psychiatry. Now they say thatthey're science based, so that seems surprising,

(32:44):
but this is a part of wherethe big pharma conversation started was scientology.
So do you know why they beganto dislike psychology and psychiatry, Well,
maybe you do. Let's get intoit anyway. L Ron Hubbard was
rejected by psychiatry and the psychology community. The Church has gone on to say
that the fields of psychology and psychiatryignore the spiritual dimension and Hubbard's ideas of

(33:08):
the mind, which is the equivalentof saying your brain is like a blocked
artery. Yeah, and so theyhave taken this very staunch position on these
fields. Just as a quick sidenote, I think that we as people
practitioners inside of psychology version of it, are highly critical of our own field

(33:29):
because we feel like it's important tomove forward. The way to move forward
is to be critical of our flawsand to point them out and correct them
when they exist. Sure, andso we're all four criticizing fields that don't
do well, rejecting them wholesale becausethey turned you down at their luncheon as
a different matter altogether. Right,So what you're gonna find is, like
scientology specifically started as like a personalrevenge story almost then, this is why

(33:53):
it's important to understand learning histories andmotivations. So Hubbard himself believes psychiatry and
psychology to be good. Initially,he received treatment during World War Two for
extended periods of moroseness and suicidal inclinations. Like that's part of his history.
He was unable to afford it andbegan studying psychiatry informally to develop his own
theories. People do this all thetime, yeah, right, Like they're

(34:14):
like, I did my own Thisis the equivalent if I did my own
research. Okay, I would justto say I invented my own research.
That's essentially what happened. Right,So his ideas were rejected due to his
overall arrogance about the science and neglectof known science or scientific inquiry about the
processes the brain process in psychology,so he basically came in and said,
here's what I think, and everybodythat was in the field was like,

(34:36):
we already know more about this thanwhat you just said, So that doesn't
make any sense, Like we werealready beyond this question. Yeah, that
you're asking, and you would knowthat if you hadn't done your own research.
So immediately after this, after hewas kind of like rejected and his
ideas were rejected, he wrote Dianetics. Like immediately after his wife Sarah sought

(34:57):
institutionalization as a result of growing concerLike she specifically tried to get him hospitalized
because of his own mental health concernsand specifically about his specific violence and irrationality
around a lot of the stuff.So he was pretty violent and had a
lot of challenges, and he actuallykidnapped his wife and daughter as a result
of this kind of breakdown, Andsoon after he came out to say that

(35:19):
psychiatry was evil. So it soundslike he wasn't accessing these services in a
really powerful way or a meaningful wayand had some kind of maybe undiagnosed or
concerning presenting problems and never got themadequately treated. So this was like almost
like a coping mechanism for him.I would guess that the revisionist history version
of this that Scientology might want youto believe is that he became disillusioned with

(35:44):
psychiatry because they were not open tonew ideas, and so he left the
field. And I think that's justnot what really it really looks like,
is what happened, sure, andso I would be disinclined to trust the
opinion of the person who has stake, who has like a reason to both.
I guess at this point financial reasonto have their position seem like the

(36:07):
right one. Anyway, they wentso far as to form the Citizens Commission
on Human Rights, which runs theAnti Psychiatry Museum, which is called Psychiatry
and Industry of Death. They allsort of book called Believe What You Like,
which saw them try to spy onBritish institutions related to mental health.
And as an example of this,the de facto figurehead of Scientology is kind

(36:29):
of Tom Cruise. I think it'slargely because of his continued and maintained popularity
and fame and movies and that sortof thing, and the fact that it's
just very well known that he's ascientologist. Key has been very vocal about
his dislike of psychiatry in particular,and a direct quote from the All Teeth
No Soul actor includes quote, Ithink psychiatry should be outlawed and quote there's

(36:51):
no such thing as a chemical imbalanceend quote. And it's criticize others for
taking medications regularly. And I thinkthat is a position personal or otherwise that
is very harmful to people who aresuffering with mental health problems. Absolutely,
he was in a pretty public feudwith Brookshields, of all people, after
Brookshields had talked about using medication tohelp manage your postpartum depression, which is

(37:15):
very real thing. Sure, yeah, she was public about that. She's
very vulnerable about it, and TomCruise was like, yeah, that's not
real, you know, like ashe does. And so Shields actually had
a really great quote on this.She said quote Tom Cruise should stick to
saving the world from aliens and letwomen who are experiencing postpartum depression decide what
treatment options are best for them endquote, which is reasonable, rational,

(37:37):
measured, and absolutely like I advocatefor that. Like, whatever you think
works best for you, go doit. But don't listen to Tom Cruise
about it fair enough anyway. Thatis essentially why we think that there's a
pretty clear link between what we discussand scientology. Is this sort of war
against psychology about which, as Isaid, we're in favorite of criticism.
I think it's good this sort ofblanketed approach of like, well, i

(37:59):
have then my own ideas about psychology, and I'm not going to do the
work or research or get the degreeor have an understanding of what that is.
I'm just going to sort of,without knowing what's going on in psychology
and psychiatry, going to make upmy own ideas and if you don't like
them, then it is because you'reevil. Yeah, And that that seems
to be the sort of the sortof what happened. And I mean,
that's just a nonsense position to take, Like sure, And I think,

(38:22):
as I was saying earlier, ifdemonizing or essentially saying that people who are
suffering with these things, it's notreal, like what they believe isn't like
it's just a belief that they have. It's just those you know, thetens
or whatever and grams. It's yeah, it's it's the stuff attached to your

(38:43):
soul. It's it's the it's theblocked brain that's extremely harmful. There are
people out here that like who arelegitimately battling with with the kind of mental
health problems that could result in thingslike suicide or going out and hurting other
people, and like to just saytheir problems aren't real. I think it
makes it a significantly more dangerous elevatedsituation. I think at the very least,
we treat at face value what someoneis reporting is happening so that we

(39:07):
can figure out what's going on anddo our best to support them. And
that telling people that whatever they're experiencingis invalid right out the gate is not
a smart place to be practically,or philosophically or clinically. I think that's
honestly where the biggest, my biggestthing comes from with this. As far
as this particular belief system, Imean, there are hundreds and hundreds and

(39:30):
hundreds of belief systems that exist outthere that include a lot of things that
I may not agree with but thatdo exist. I mean, But the
thing is is when it comes downto this particular thing, having mental health
concerns in my family, working witha lot of people that have mental health
diagnoses that really struggle with those,and equality of life is diminished because of
those, because they're not getting adequatetreatment, or they're not getting enough treatment,

(39:52):
or not getting the treatment to workfor them. I mean watching that
happen and then having somebody like TomCruise come out and say, well,
none of this is real is justa slap in the face to somebody who
works in the field, let alonesomebody who might have a diagnosis. And
I cannot imagine how hurtful that wouldbe watching somebody stand up on a platform

(40:12):
and a pedestal and be on talkshows and promoting movies and going I did
my own stunts. I jumped outof an airplane and I pop popcorn on
the way down. Also, mentalhealth is a real and you're like,
what the are you doing? Dude? That's my biggest bias against this,
and like why I it's such aconcern and let alone the other stuff that
we're gonna talk about, But like, that's I think my biggest thing.
Believe what you want. But atthis point in time, it's becoming quite

(40:35):
harmful the messaging around this. Nowyou might be hearing what we've been saying,
the criticisms we've been leveling at thisand hear this whole like moving up
a level, getting deeper and deeperinto the system sort of thing, and
think this sounds a lot like acult. So we didn't unpack that question,
is it a cult? Does thismeet that definition of a cult?
Allegedly, while this episode in particularis not about cults, a common criticism

(40:57):
of this is that scientology gets canto cultish behavior. So by definition,
a cult is quote a system ofreligious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular
figure or object end quote. Soanother way cults have been described has been
a quote a group of people withusually atypical beliefs living in relative isolation from
the world end quote. So kindof wrapping your head around those definitions,

(41:21):
I think it's important to kind ofunpack a couple of things around cults.
So those are some quick definitions.I think other things to think about when
we're trying to look at what cultsare and what they do is what are
the common elements of when we havesort of an archetype of a cult versus
other things that do cult like thingsthat usually involves things like authoritarian control.
You've got someone who has total controlover everything that everybody in the members.

(41:43):
The members all do extremist beliefs.So it's not just like we believe that
flowers are really pretty and therefore we'regoing to stick our grounds. It's like
something that's way outside of a sortof normal range of behaviors. Isolation from
society usually means you do not communicateor talk with others on the outside.
That's usually a very quote opponent ofcults. And then usually commonly a veneration

(42:04):
of a single individual as being likethe primary figurehead, status, symbol,
leader, you know, whatever itis. There is like a person who
is regarded as having the highest levelof status and sort of quality, if
you will. So when we startkind of going further, I think it's
important to also define that they're kindof expressed that there's different types of cults.
There are doomsday cults, which arecults that prepare for the end of

(42:27):
the world, like the Branch Davidiansin Wake of Texas in the nineteen nineties,
if you're familiar with that whole situation. They're political cults. I mean,
all you gotta do is look atJanuary Sex. You've got religious cults
where generally starts with a brand newtheology or a religion, or they're sex
cults which focus primarily on sex andsexual abuse, like Nexium, which is
a recent kind of like a weirdMLM that came up, multi level marketing

(42:49):
scheme that came up that turned intoa sex cult, and there was like
some pretty public trials where people gotcharged and they're sent to prison for it,
like including some actors. Woh,okay, so these are actually like
contemporary things that are going on,like Matt Gates. Yeah, Matt Gates
is definitely a part of Okay,one of these I meant to say next
year. I don't know how thatslept out anyway, Yeah, you know,

(43:10):
it's just it happens sometimes. Now, there are some other examples of
cults that are important to note,like Heaven's Gate People's Temple, which was
Jim Jones the Unification Church. Thereare many, many, many many cults
out there that exist that or useas different case examples and have pulled these
characteristics that we've just described. Andthere are multiple motivations for why someone would
join a colt, how they getrecruited to cults, how cults recruit people.

(43:32):
So it makes sense the groups likethe Church of Scientology would be able
to recruit folks right and get themto sort of into that system. Sometimes
people seek shared experiences of relationships.Others are seeking spiritual meaning. Others are
often tricked or manipulated into joining,sometimes out of fear, sometimes out of
hope, sometimes both, whatever thereason, There are groups of people who

(43:53):
find their way and the arms ofwelcoming organizations, only to find out that
it wasn't necessarily what they expected,or they continue to believe and sort of
maintain the facade for a really longtime because they want to believe it so
badly. But then that really doesbeg the question, based on all of
this discussion of cults, is theChurch of Scientology cult by definition not necessarily

(44:15):
but also maybe And that's the challengethat's that's the kind of the concern that
goes along with this. It seemsthe only lacking element is that central figure.
Although l Ron Hubbard might effectively servethat role as like the person that's
venerated like it's not quite the sameas Jim Jones, like not the omnipresent
kind of like the one above allthe end of all there is type of

(44:36):
situation, Like it's not like that, but supposedly el Ron Hubbard has ascended
to all the extra levels that nobodyelse is and he is off exploring the
galaxy and the Zeni Verse. Sothere's some other differences too, is like
they aren't really the isolationist way thatmany cults tend to operate, Like they
do keep their secrets closely guarded,but they don't prevent members from going out

(44:57):
and sort of being out in thecommunity and doing things in the world.
Right, Yeah, they're actually prettypublic, which is like an odd thing
too. Yeah, so like that'snot really cult like their beliefs I think
I would categorize as extremists, butas we said, they're not really all
that different from believing that like someoneread magic stones out of a hat for
example, or tossed to a burningbush or talk to yeah, talked to

(45:20):
a piece of shrubbery that was onfire. So like there's I think it
actually does meet a lot closer tothe definition of religion than it does a
cult, and so I think Iprobably wouldn't necessarily slip it into cult status,
But there are things about it thatare cult like, and I can
understand why they're concerning for that reason. So the main concern really in this
space is that the church engages inactive processes to suppress, harass, or

(45:42):
classify its followers and critics openly.So like what they'll do is they ask
that they're followers disconnect from their attachments. There are some reports of that,
and are told that those people areconsidered suppressive persons or sps, and sps
are like a derogatory term, andthe church, you are an SP,
you are bad, you are youshould not be around. Followers also received
training on how to manage skeptics likeus, So I imagine we'll probably get

(46:05):
some emails at some point in time. So I think there is like a
little bit of the isolation component there, but not necessarily. It's like it's
like kind of like like get ridof the people who are sps. An
I'm an SP two, but likeyou could get rid of the people who
are sps, because they're going tobe they're going to constantly put those blocks
back in place and keep you frombeing clear, and so bring them on

(46:27):
or just keep them at arm's length. It's like essentially what happens where negative
Nelle is over here. That's it. During the audit process, secrets are
gathering stored. As we mentioned,this has sort of treated this confessional.
You're asked to give them a lotof personal information that they then get to
hold onto and a standard confessional someonemight share their inner secrets or concerns where
it is forgiven and left and aconfessional booth. In this case, every

(46:51):
confession is documented and stored for alater retrieval if needed. And this alone
can create a coercive relationship and createcourse of controls sort of that if you
leave, everyone will find out typeof approach. So this does then sort
of look like that authoritarian control thatwe've seen in other cult like things as
well, right, and so tokind of like maybe button this particular section

(47:13):
of RUE in twenty eighteen compares auditingto pastoral counseling, and if you're out
initiated, pastoral counseling is a formof psychotherapy that includes spiritual resources as well
as psychological understanding for healing and growth, and it's typically performed by mental health
professionals that have theological training. Soyou'll find this kind of like in church
faith based types of settings. Right, And my question would be, how

(47:34):
could this be if there's a strongaversion to psychology in psychotherapy. Answer that
one cruise, How could auditing andpastoral counseling be the same even though they
have the same processes. Well,we can answer that auditors are not trened
counselors and the audit process is anassessment. Either ru had a gross misunderstanding
of the audit process or he's oneof them. Either way, it just

(47:58):
doesn't make very much sense to essentiallysay like we're going to do something that
looks like psychology and also say psychologypsychiatry aren't real right right, right,
or evil or evil. It's awhole thing. So now that we have
kind of an idea of where we'regoing and what's next, let's get to
the point in the Scientology episode wherewe do talk about science. But while
we prepare for that, we're gonnalisten to a couple ads. Okay,

(48:27):
we promised you science, where arehere to deliver? Obviously, I think
the first thing to say is thatthere isn't really any science behind Scientology,
particularly what they deem as being sortof effective. But there are some nuanced
things that are worth unpacking in termsof understanding science and how it relates to
this. Yeah, So the firstthing to really understand about what's going on
in the world scientology is this ideaof coercion. And so there is an

(48:50):
extensive body of research on the impactof coercion and what it does, and
between the impact on mental health andwell being of those in coercive circumstances.
The church does kind of employ thesepractices that impacts followers. Defectors from the
church indicate that the impact the churchhad on their overall well being in relationships.
Overall, it was really difficult forthem to get on and to move,

(49:10):
like to create friends and to become, you know, part of their
communities because there was so much courseof control. I was going to ask
you real quick, I figure itwith me as well. I figured most
people will have well have heard theterm coercion, and most that listen to
us will know what that means.But just in case, you're way to
find it really quick. Yeah,vocabulary, I like that coercion is the

(49:31):
practice of persuading someone to do somethingby use of force or threats. Right,
So essentially, when you think ofthe audit process, I have all
this information on you, you're gonnado what I say worlds. The world
is going to find out. Asa matter of fact, that's like one
of the biggest like discussions around JohnTravolta's involvement with the Church of Scientology.
Everybody's got rumors and stuff like that, but like that's actually one of the

(49:52):
big points of contention that comes upwith John Travolta time and time again.
He's still only part of the churchbecause he'll get out of it as as
a home sexual man and he doesn'twant that, which anyway, I guess
it is what it is. It'sa whole thing, but it's exhausting now.
Kent and Manka Manka and twenty fourteenhave written about the impact of Scientology

(50:13):
on the field of psychiatry and statethat misinformation practices and public statements about the
field of psychiatry have ultimately harmed publictrust in psychiatry and have made it so
that fewer people are accessing services thatthey may need that would help get them
the supports that would allow them torecover and find you know, sort of
strength and meaning in their relationships andin their lives. Because they are they

(50:35):
see that practice as being problematic.So again there's oftentimes I think there are
these people in the past who didnot think about the long term implications of
you know, picking a fight witha whole field of people who are out
there trying to help others. Ithink that's an important thing. Now.
Is scientology the only place that thebad vibes are coming from when it comes
to psychiatry, No, not evenclose. But their messaging certainly isn't helping.

(50:59):
Yeah, so I agree. Now. Ratana in twenty seventeen goes further
syite the practices of dianetics and claimsof psychiatry psychology being pseudoscientific as harmful to
those with actual psychiatric concerns. Sobasically what they're comparing was like what's going
on with scientology versus like what's happeningin psychology. So, for instance,
if things like chemical imbalances and psychiatricdisorders are a myth, then the claims

(51:22):
of scientology makes disregards concerns related toqueer patients and their unique needs. A
lack of care around clinically significant disorderscan produce higher rates of psychiatric symptoms leading
to harm to the self or others. So that's kind of what you were
saying before, which is like ifI'm not getting the help I need,
I am increasing risk of harm topeople around me. And so the messaging
around calling psychiatry and psychology pseudoscientific increasesrisk for those who are at risk,

(51:50):
right, Lazarre Kravitz Frederic Kadem intwo thousand and two, And I don't
think it's that Kravitz different, Kravitsdifferent. Yeah that Lenny Leonard Kravitz or
Zoe explored self reported motivations for Jewishreligious behavior and found that there were several
factors belief in divine order, ethnicidentity, social activity, family activity,
and upbringing. And while we cannotdirectly apply the same factors as scientology,

(52:14):
we can't see how these factors wouldlead to involvement in a large church type
organization. Yeah, it makes sense. I think, like when you're looking
for like activity social groups like Yeah, an organization, whether they're religious or
not, may provide for that,and it makes sense that people would join
these larger groups. Yeah. RoostLed at All in twenty seventeen explored cult
membership and how people end up joiningand or leaving said cult. They found

(52:37):
that there are shared characteristics among cultmembership and addictive disorders. Things like persistence
of engagement despite harm or damage,initial psychological relief, occupation or engagement in
a membership or club, high psychiatriccomorbidities, and accessibility to related activities.
So I thought that was kind ofinteresting that they found that addictive disorders and

(52:58):
cult membership have a lot of paarlels. Yes, yeah, I think
that that there's probably a whole episodeto unpack about that at some point in
the future. Yes, but there'ssomeone that I think we talk about too
little on this show, whose nameis Israel gold Diamond, and he's not
talking about either cults or scientology specifically, but I think in generally understanding these
complex things that humans do that sometimeslook very confusing, way don't understand them.

(53:22):
He said, it's contingencies plural,and this case, what we're mean
by contingencies is essentially the relation betweenour behavior and its effect in the world
and how that then later affects usin our behavior and the behavioral contingencies.
The circumstances related to joining a majororganization makes sense. Feeling stressed. They

(53:43):
offer a place of relief and rest. Having a problem, they can solve
it, even if that place great'sa problem. Lonely. They got lots
of people. They got built infriends, want meaning in your life.
There's something you can do to savethe world, save yourself, save other
people than feeling sick. They've gota solution for that very specific alien blockage
problem. And so anyway, thepoint being that, like there are lots

(54:05):
of it's not just one thing.In effect, with everything, it's never
just one thing. It is allthe things all the time, and how
they interact with one another two.You know, one thing could change another
in terms of the circumstances of yourlife. And so Issio gold Diamond is
someone we should invoke more often inour discussions. Absolutely. So with all

(54:25):
of that being said, there aresome other tidbits that I thought were really
important that we could talk about relatedthis. Yeah, important and fun,
I think important and fun, butalso will provide a little bit more context
about like the high strangeness that goesalong with us. So, first of
all, there were only about fortythousand scientologists globally. Globally. Wow,
that is a shockingly small number,which is much less than I thought.
Yeah, that surprises me tremendously.So it's it's mind blowing because there are

(54:50):
more behavioring less in the world thanscientologists, and nobody knows what I do
for a living. That is sofrustrated. That's a very good point.
Yeah, I mean, if youwere to PLoP every scientologist on the entire
planet into one town, it wouldbe a tiny, tiny rural town,
a small town. Like they havelike a grocery store in a gas station,

(55:12):
and they have enough property to makea small town too. Yeah,
and that's a fair point. Andalso somehow like eleven Starbucks, but yeah,
definitely a Walmart. Another interesting tidbithere. They own about twelve million
square feet of property. That's whereyou're going with your a small town thing.
That's where I was going, yep, with twenty six properties that are
worth approximately four hundred million dollars.Their headquarters in Clearwater, Florida. Yeah,

(55:37):
of course it's Florida. Yeah,I don't know. I didn't see
that coming, but it's worth aboutone hundred and sixty eight million dollars.
So House of Mouse and House ofGoing clear you know, the House of
zero house nearby. It didn't catchme until this moment, Like, do
you think they picked Clearwater specifically becauseit's clear? I do think they I

(55:58):
think that's maybe they maybe they renamedit too. I feel like that was
very explicit. Yeah, I thinkit was explicit. Either they change the
name or they chose it because ofthe name. Yeah, I feel like
it had to have been very intentionalto be there. So some believe that
academics are actually afraid to study Scientologyand publish on the religion due to their
highly litigious nature and suppressive tactics.It appears that the overall that their public

(56:21):
relations, like Scientology is public relations, and their practices will make those people
sps to the world, those academicsthat are studying so like everybody, it's
like one of those things where it'slike we're publishing this episode, but like
we also know that there's a riskthat we're going to get an email from
the Church of Scientology. It's gonnabe like, hey, take this down,
Like because they are so litigious andthere's so many public records of them,

(56:42):
so like academics don't even want studythem because they're like, I don't
want to bother they're afraid of it. Yeah, we need we need HBO
money to like higher lawyers that canhelp us deal with this. Yeah,
you can also help us by joiningus on Patrion the Why we do what
we do Legal Defense Fund exactly right. Our goal for our public hangout was

(57:02):
fifteen patrons. Our goal for likea public activity as twenty patrons. Our
goal for having enough money to battlethe Scientology lawyers as two million patrons.
Let's break all those records, guys. Helps. Every little bit helps.
The major move that Scientologists have madeis enlisting actors, major public figures that

(57:23):
are well known and well liked.That then we'll go out and share their
message. We already know about TomCruise and John Travolta, but there's also
Giovanni Rabies, Elizabeth Moss, NancyCartwright, Doug E. Fresh, and
Heinza Kays who famously left South Parkdue to their episode on Scientology, and
among those who originally joined and leftalso include William S. Burrows Beck,

(57:45):
Cedric bixlar Zavala, who is theat the Drive in the singer of at
the Dreven Yet, yeah, whoare in that? Neil Gaiman, Katie
Holmes, Charles Manson, and LeoRamini who famously went after the Church and
several documentaries that were pretty powerful.We get to skip over that. Charles
Manson was a scientologist at some pointin time. No, that that did

(58:06):
occur to me to maybe come tocircle back around too. So there's that.
William S Burrows and Charles Mantor areboth like no, no, no,
no, no no no, it'stoo much just to kind of put
that in your heads now. Fora period of time, l Ron Hubbard
was living in a home with JackParsons as part of a group studying thelemic
magic. Jack Parsons is partly responsiblefor helping establish rocketry in the United States

(58:28):
as part of a group of scientistsat Caltech called the Suicide Squad, and
they were known as a Suicide Squad, and that's where the original name came
from. They were known for theirunorthodox and dangerous methods, which caused several
explosions on campus and off campus.Jack Parsons actually died in the explosion in
his own house, so like itwas kind of like a pattern of behavior
that he had. But he isresponsible for creating jet engines. Wow,

(58:51):
and his conscienceness was put into ashark who then became a sentient soldier I
hope. So, yeah, there'sa myth that Hubbard actually created the religion
on a bet with Robert A.Heinlein, a wonderful author author of A
Stranger Into Strange Land and Starship Troopersour final tie. And while this is
not confirmed, several reports indicate thatHubbard had made multiple comments about how starting

(59:12):
a religion could be a good wayto make money, allegedly allegedly, I
wonder if we should just call thispodcast this podcast episode Scientology Comma allegedly.
I think that's the name of it. I think that's the name. You
got it perfect, we did it. I mean, el Ron Hubbard had
a lot of the yachts, sohe did make some money off of this.
Yeah, fair, all right.So I mean with all this,

(59:34):
all this information, it's probably worthdoing some takeome points. So I think
my main take on point in kindof going through all this is that it's
not unfair to describe Scientology as analleged cult. Those main key markers are
there in one form or another.They might be a little bit more nuanced,
but they're they're there, and thatthose that I have spoken out about
the harms of this particular group theyparallel harms of other cults. Consistently,

(01:00:00):
people are being suppressed, they're beinghurt that they are being coerced, and
I think I think it's like Isaid, it's not necessarily I don't know
that you can outright call scientology acult. Obviously we're not here, but
it's not unfair to liken them toa cult. I think, yeah,
I can see that, And soI think they wouldn't like really meet the
technical definition. But they do sharesome characteristics, yes, with cults and

(01:00:22):
things that cults do, and Ido get that. And one of the
things they have done is taking anexisting problem and create a solution that only
they have. It's a page rightout of the sort of pseudoscience handbook,
is to sort of patent and lockdown these positions. Now, I will
also say a lot of pseudosciences givetheir stuff away for free, but then
they are sort of like because theirstuff doesn't work, it's sort of like,

(01:00:45):
oh, well, you need thisother thing to really bring to the
next level. And that's where theyget people in the door. And I
think that's not different here, right, there's the like you get your personality
test, yeah, and then youpay us thousands of dollars and you get
to learn the truth if you will, Yeah, And so we do have
lots of research on how to treatand support those with various mental health disorders.
There's ongoing research all the time tocontinue to find better in better ways

(01:01:05):
to support those people. Were reallyclear that those struggles are real for those
people, and honestly, it kindof doesn't matter whether or not they have
a chemical imbalance or whether or notthey have a psychological problem that was brought
on by circumstances that arose in theirchildhood that you could could call baggage if
you want to. The point isthat they have the real experience that they're
struggling with something real that could havethem the result that is currently resulting in

(01:01:28):
harm to them, it could resultin further harm to them or others,
and that they are seeking support withthat. So calling that not real is
just it's inappropriate, it's harmful,and it's not something I can be on
board with, regardless of what theideology might be. And I think that's
ultimately my main take. One pointtoo, is like, at the end

(01:01:49):
of the day, like it doesn'treally matter what your moral tales are,
It doesn't matter what your stories are, it doesn't matter what your belief system
is. But if it's becoming harmfulto people that are not part of your
group, or it's becoming harmful topeople within your group financially harmful, then
I don't think that that's a verysupportive system of faith. And I think

(01:02:10):
that's where I really struggle with that. I think, at the end of
the day, like I couldn't imaginegoing to a place where I'm seeking help
and just being put in more riskas a result of that because I'm seeking
out a community I'm already vulnerable andnow I'm in more harm's way than I
ever was because they're trying to makemoney off of me, or they are

(01:02:30):
telling me to isolate myself, whenisolation is the last thing I should do.
And so I think that ultimately,no matter what your belief system is,
if it's harmful, it's not helpful, and that's we've got to move
away from those things. And allof this that's basically just the you know,
the creation of a person who wasmad that he didn't get his way,
so he created an entire religion tosay, you can't be in my

(01:02:51):
secret club and know the secret passwordunless you give me money and believe what
I tell you to believe yeah,I mean l Ron Hubbard was not a
great guy. He stole Jack Parsonhis wife and like did all kinds of
really awful things while he was livingwith him. So like, he's not
a great guy. He's not knownfor his like moral integrity. All right,
Well, I think that's about whatwe have to say about scientology.
Is there anything else that you'd liketo add chain before we move on?

(01:03:14):
No, I think that covers it. I mean, I've got I mean,
I have a lot to say,but I don't think that it fits
in the context of this particular episode. Fair enough, Well, we do
have some recommendations. I wouldn't recommendads, but they're here anyway. Okay,
we're back. I know we justhad some transition music away from ads.

(01:03:37):
So I'll give you a second tolisten to my dulcet tones, the
dulcet tones of my voice, andthen we'll do a music to segue to
our beautiful recommendations segment recommendations. I'mrecommending a new stand up special. It's
by John Millennium. It's called BabyJ. I don't know if you've had

(01:03:59):
a chance to watch yet. Idon't know if you have not, do
you watch any stand up at all. Sometimes, Yeah, not not super
consistently, but I do sometimes.Okay, I've gotten a real joyet of
some stand up stuff. Yeah,okay, good. So this one is
starkly different than John Moliney's stuff.So he still wears a suit, and
he's like very well addressed and allthat, and he's still kind of like
some exaggerated stories. But this isthe whole he tells that, I mean,
from the beginning to end. It'slike him just kind of sharing and

(01:04:23):
being vulnerable about his addiction and goingto rehab and the whole process of like
going to rehab, healing from rehab, all the struggles that he's had with
being a drug addict, and likethe entire story along that line. And
it's really fascinating. It's really fascinatingto watch him kind of be a different
person and like tell a different jokesinstead of the really exaggerated stories. It's
very linear and very I think,very heartfelt. So I was really impressed

(01:04:45):
with it. But it was alsovery funny, sure, because he was
like the whole time like he wasthat, like he wasn't punching up or
punching down in anybody else. Itwas always to himself, like everything was
like him to say his own punchingbag, and I thought that was really
a great way to probably cope andstress or deal with the stress that goes
along with recovery. All right,good to know. Yeah, where do
you get this? Where's this available? It's on Netflix right now? Okay,

(01:05:06):
John Lenny Baby j on Netflix.I'm recommending a TV show. I
may have even recommended this before,I don't know, but I was just
delighting in the wonders of this show. And that's Bob's Burgers. It's a
cartoon show. It's definitely available onHulu. It might be available on Fox,
but you can find it a coupleof different places. But this is
just it's such a delightful, wholesome, really really funny, well written show.

(01:05:30):
And I think all the vocal talentedit is incredible. The story writing
is wonderful. It's engaging, itnever gets old. It's not relying on
a lot of sort of shock valueor politics. It's usually these sort of
day to day struggle type comedy situations. Yeah, and some also goofball personalities
that I think really helped drive itforward. So Bob's Burgers the movie was

(01:05:50):
great too. Recommend that, sogo out and find yourself some Bob's Burgers
and just sit back and relax andenjoy the right because it's a good time.
I love it now. Bobs isgreat. It's so funny. Indeed,
all right, if you like whatwe're doing here today and you'd like
to support us, you can dothat by subscribing living us a rating or
review of picking up some merch,joining us on a trip through Scientology World

(01:06:13):
theme park, which I don't thinkany of us would go to, So
don't don't do that, I takeit back, no that, But specifically,
if you join us on Patreon,and we're trying to get to fifteen
Patreon supporters, and when we do, we'll we'll do a virtual hang out
with y'all and you can sort ofask us questions. We'll us talk and
hang out and have fun and dothat sort of thing, and if we
get enough, then we'll do somemore formal activities we get till like twenty
and again, if we're Illegal DefenseFund, we need like two million people,

(01:06:33):
So join us over there. It'spatreon dot com slash WWDWWD podcast.
You can learn more about this episodeand other episodes by going to our website.
You can reach out to us byemailing us directly at info at WWDWWD
podcast dot com. For the peoplewho have already joined us on Patreon,
those people get all kinds of bonusstuff they already liked the episode. They

(01:06:55):
get our notes, they get behindthe scenes content, they get videos,
they get ramblings from us, theyget our search inquiries to chat ept.
That special group of people consists ofMike, m Meghan, Laila, Mike
T, Justin, Kim, Joshua, The Daily Ba, Brad, Stephanie,
Kelly, Olivia and Brian. Thankyou all so much for your support,
credit where credit is due. Musicand editing by Justin Greenhouse, writing

(01:07:16):
and fact checking by Shane, Selena, Jess and myself. And then of
course thank you all for listening.Is there anything that I missed or anything
you'd like to add before we closeout this dive on scientology? Nope,
not today perfect. Then this isAbraham, This is Shane bro Out.
See ya. You've been listening toWhy we do what we do. You
can learn more about this and otherepisodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com.

(01:07:41):
Thanks for listening, and we hopeyou have an awesome Day one.

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