After the Taint & An Unexpected Letter - Towers of Midnight chapters 10 & 11 - EP551

Perrin and Galad meet, Elayne receives the infamous letter from Mat.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. It's fine,
I guess these chapters. That's how I feel about these chapters.
They're fine.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, they're fine, I guess. I. On rereading Matt's letter chapter,
I find it less egregious than I do in my
memory for a couple of reasons that I'll point out
when I get there. Most notably, he says, yeah, this
is a rough draft that I just decided to send anyway,
and it's like I was going to rewrite this, like
and when he's writing a rough draft, I can see where, oh,
there's a couple of misspellings as crossed that words like

(00:47):
of course, like if you're writing a rough draft, you're
going to cross stuff out and use a different word, right.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
That is why it's called a rough drafts because you
don't have to make it perfect. You can just allow
the mistakes to stand and it's okay.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
I mean, then you can my that with just like
the number of emails I've written to then delete and
the things I've said to them. But I feel like
this is one of those situations where it's like, Matt,
you should have deleted this one and rewritten it like better,
and like taking that into account, I can I can
forgive some of the crudeness that's in there.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah. Well, like I said last time, I love the
sibling bickering energy that gets translated through the letter, So
I'm willing to forgive the letter's actual awkwardness because of
how Elaine and Matt interact with each other via that
letter as an icebreaker. So but uh, before we get
to that, we have to do this this Parent chapter,
which is like maybe a little bit less than fine.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Honestly, it's I have a few things to say about it,
but not a lot. Actually, there's a few background things
that I think are interesting in this chapter, but I
really don't find the main plot to be. I mean,
Parent meets with Galled and they both kind of go yep,
we're gonna fight, and like Gold never says his name,
which is just dumb. He says, I'm the Lord Captain commander,

(02:03):
Like what why would he not say his formal title
and his full name? Like that seems just common sense.
It feels manufactured that that pairing doesn't find out in
this moment that gall It is the Lord Captain commander.
And I think that's what frustrates me about this chapter.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
That's what frustrates me hugely about their entire dynamic is
that so much would have been resolved if Galott had
just ever introduced himself by name, which seems like a
perfectly ordinary thing to do, and the fact that that
is what so much of this like, will they won't
they plot hangs on just I hate will they won't
they anytime that that's used as a narrative, plot forwarding,

(02:41):
quote unquote, or plot stalling device. It just I hate
it as a trope. I hate it as a mechanic.
And this feels like so manufactured and ham fisted, even
within the context of that trope that it's I sprained
my eyes rolling my eyeballs when I was reading this chapter.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yes, yes, I don't think I want to do a
read in on this. I don't find the I I'd.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Rather Yeah, the only thing I think we need from
this reading is to point out these two interesting two
Rivers names that never come up again, because those are
probably fan inserts.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Because oh, okay, good call, we've.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Never heard of montem Alsan and asi Alphone. I don't
think those are names we've ever seen before or since,
so I'm pretty sure those are some more hat tips
to batter reads.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Let's see, I didn't actually look those two people up.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
And then the only other interesting part about the area
that would be a read in is just that they
have recently camped near the statue that Ninive comes to
get Tam at, right, Like this is one of those
location stamps of like it's the statue with stabbing the
ground with the sword, and you know, we know that
when Ninive comes to get Tam that's significantly after this,

(03:53):
but like they have just arrived at that statue. So
for what it's worth in trying to organize the timelines,
that's how helpful.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
But yeah, this is before Tam quite a bit, right.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, I mean because Tam leaves on the eve of
the trial, right from the eve of the battle, right,
And Parrott is like, you have to leave now, like
right now, and Tam says, yeah, I'm real sorry, Bud,
but like I have to go right now. And that's
after all of this Parent and Galt stuff has gone
back and forth and back and forth and back and forth.

(04:23):
That's when Tam leaves, and they have only just now
this day in the plot arrived. So for what it's worth,
we can locate ourselves on the timeline in that way.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
So, and just to reference those two names. In two
thousand and eight, Anthony AZ's won a drawing grand prize
hosted by tarvalont Net to get his name in the
Tower of Midnight, So that's where this comes from. And
mantam Alson is named for Sean Montgomery, a fan of
the Wheel of Time. So I'm not sure how he
got his name in there, but they are both fan inserts.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yes, nice, Yeah, that's the game we're playing now, that
is the game we're playing now. It was spot the
fan insert So yeah, that's all I had for the
entire read in section was like fan in certain names.
And they have just arrived at the statue, which we
know they will be camped at up to tamp getting
taken away.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah. I've got to mention that some of the two
of her men are eyeing him sideways because they still
think he cheated on if I deal with Berylane. They
haven't dealt with that yet.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
I roll number one. I roll number one, And we
should mentioned this is the chapter called after the Taint, right,
because paren and Grady have that discussion about I used
to not have anything to live for because of the
tant and now that the taint is gone, Aschaman has
something to live for. And that's an important like gestalt
shift in their entire worldview.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Which you know, that's the thing that Rand. It's kind
of weird because he picks that up before Rand sends
the message that you're not weapons your men, right, because
that's kind of saying the same thing.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Well, yeah, because it's kind of a universal observation. You
don't need Rand to tell you that. It's sort of
a natural law.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
But that's what Godswayne had to teach them, right.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
I truly don't think that Katswain was necessary because this
man came to that conclusion entirely. Sands Katswain, you know,
the simplest the dragons fan because again, obviously.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Parents first thought was so and so they're dealing with
the fact that the white Cloaks took the travel and
the people who were traveling with supplies.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
And the grain from so Harbor. Like Cassanderson's like, remember
so Harbor, Remember So that's right, Yeah, the white Cloaks
took that grain, the weavil grain.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
And so his first thought is like what do I
what I did last time I came into the White Cloaks,
I snuck in and freed the prisoners and snuck back
out again, and that worked pretty well. So he's like,
can we sneak in a freedom and they're like, uh,
grades like, you know, I don't really see why we
would sneak. I could just kill them. They don't have
channel alerts. They're worthless as fighting a fighting force. And

(06:48):
I love I just like I love that whole sentiment
where Gray's like, they don't have anyone who can channel
the one power. Grady shrugged, hands clasped behind his back
as he walked with his black coat, the pin and
the increasingly soldier like attitude. He was looking less and
less like a farmer. Neil is feeling better. He and
I could pound those children down until they give us
what we want, and it's just like yeah, like ye,

(07:10):
just the two of them are a force that outstrips
the White Cloaks. They're so useless.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah yeah, Paren's like, oh my god, complicated, complicated, complicated.
They're like parent, parent, parent. The level of Mountain versus
Mole Hill right now is ridiculous. Any One of these
channelers could probably take out the entire White cloak army,
any two of us, it's going to be a walk
in the park. Don't make this complicated. This is not

(07:35):
one hundred thousand shidow. This is like three thousand dickwads
on horses.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Right without channelers. And you just figured out circles. So
you know you have male channelers who can now pound
them with an incredible amount of force with a lot
of support in a circle.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Well they're going to figure out circles in about thirty seconds. Yeah, yeah,
but yeah, it's just paren is so determined to make
this complicated because his ad. It's in a way him
and Galad are so well matched because they just insist
on making everything so much more complicated than it.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
He realizes that this is basically the same group of
white cloaks he dealt with before in the Two Rivers
that he kicked out, because it's got born hauled.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
He hasn't thought at the beginning that like maybe they're
going to like be able to sneak by and like
maybe they won't know who we are. Maybe we can
hide that. And then the first white cloak that walks
up is like the one who has the most animous
for him. Okay, we're not going to get to exactly,
so none of none of that subterfuge is going to
help cool.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Does parent have six fingers on his left hand?

Speaker 1 (08:37):
I know right well he is from the two rivers
and the cats. There are paradactyls. What the polydactyl god?
Paradactyl polydactyl.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Oh god, that reminds me of a reference Sluggie before.
It's a webcomic, and there's there's a horror theme where
Satan gives birth to a slew of murderous kittens who
eventually sprout bat wings and start attacking from the skies.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Polydactyl ary tactyles. Yes, that's where I'm going, But yeah,
so circles. Another important step in the creating of Malinair
occurs when the male female experimentation into making circles becomes
a thing, and now they're just going to teach it
to everyone else. But like, this is the moment when
they figure it out.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
I feel like Sanderson is trying to be like, Okay,
we have all of these things that exist out in
the world that now I need everybody to figure out
all of the same. Like we're doing stepping up power
levels very quickly. A lot of people are learning how
to be soldiers very quickly. A lot of channelers are
learning these weaves that were, you know, kind of scattered,

(09:47):
and how to make how men and women can work together,
and how to make gateways. And there's just a lot
of power scaling happening in this book, kind of in
the background as we He's like, okay, to have the
last we want all of these tools and abilities and
things to be in the last battle, which means all
these people need to have those abilities. So hold on

(10:09):
really quick, let me teach everybody everything.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, signaritively, there is a critical mass that does make sense,
But it also is like Sanderson got in here and
was like, all right, we're going to turn the pedal
to the medal. Let's go, right, let's go. Sanderson is
in town now, we need to make this happen.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
And don't get me wrong, I think power scaling magic
systems is one of Sanderson's best writing abilities, right, Like
he's a great world builder and he's great at power
scaling magic right. I think those are two of the
things he's you know, I think his character work needs work.
I think his plot is often a little simplistic, and

(10:44):
I think his writing is often not as well layered
as it could be. All these means he's very accessible, right,
He's very easy to read. And I know people will
disagree with some of the people love some of his characters,
and I still find them very shallow, even as more
complicated ones.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
But and he writes his action well, yeah, no, it's
I love Robert Jordan and his magic system. But Sanderson's
ability to scale and expand a magic system at this
critical juncture in the escalating towards the Last Battle was
really a powerfully constructive wave.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yes, yeah, yeah, And I'm really love Pavara and Andral.
I just I wish it had been Logaine and one
of the and his like if I just rewrite that
to be like, oh yeah, just have that below gain
because he's a character that exists. It'd be cool to
see him figuring this all out with the Gateways, you know,

(11:36):
but I understand why they didn't. You know. The other
thing Sanderson really likes to do, and you see this
really in The Misborn, the second Misborn trilogy, is he
loves just to min max his characters. He loves to say,
oh what if he's really really really low power? But
he can do this really amazing thing with this one
really amazing thing with gateways, How can I use that
to its full full extent?

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Which is fun, it's a good it's a good sandbox
to plan, but it is also you can see it
when it's happening. Something I really like about this exchange
with Paren and Greedy is that Paren does not even
question the concept that the tank could have been cleansed.
He's like, no, that makes sense, seems like something Rand
would do, seems like something this man really believes. Just
kind of feels right, like he doesn't be all stuck

(12:21):
in them at about it like literally everyone else except
for Moraine. It's like Paren and Moraine are the only
ones that are.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Like, oh yeah, that tracks and it's his. And he
does that repeatedly with Rand, where he's like, oh, yeah,
of course you need to break the seals like you have.
You can't have to clear the rubble. That makes sense
to me, right like all of the You can't reford
something that's broken, you have to make a new one,
right like that. He Paren is is super probably the
most supportive of Rand out of anybody in the series.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
In general, by a large margin.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Like his whole, this whole quest to go out and
get the profit and come back. He has stuck to
that the whole time. I mean, little diversion to rescue
his wife, but that's understandable, right, But other than that,
he's completely stuck with his quest and up until the
point where you know, and he really he's like, well,
he wanted me to take care of him as a problem,
and I took care of as a problem. If it

(13:12):
was somewhat accidental, he did. He put his followers through
a meat grinder on purpose, so you know, he's and
he's loyal and Matt, Matt's almost loyal by accident, you know.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, I feel like Matt is a lot more skeptical
when he gets told about the taint being cleansed, like
he's convinced, but his first reaction does not make sense.
His first reaction is are you insane? Yeah, you're probably insane,
because you know, like he does what everyone else does,
and Paren's just like, I don't I want to say
why that would be false? Seems reasonable, which I mean,

(13:41):
granted Paren has the spidy sense of smell, but still,
I just liked that his inclination is like weeah, Rand
would probably do something like that.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
And logically, yeah, I mean, he's the Dragon reborn, He's
this legendary figure. He's probably going to do things no
one else has done, and the tent has to be
cleansed in order to be tainted, right, and you know,
like and just it's it makes sense on a lot
of levels. And I think that's why it's so frustrating,
because you expect everyone to react the way parent does.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, exactly, Parent's an outlier, but it's what all of
us are feeling as readers who spend so much time
with Rand, being sympathetic to Rand.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
So then we get Grady talking about how he wants
to go back to see his family in the Black Tower,
which doesn't that like not be possible because the spike
is there.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
I think that's how parent is clued into the fact
that something's wrong at the White Tower, because yeah, this
man who is the Black Tower you very determined to
go see his family. Is like I can't get in parents, like,
oh that that means something's wrong, something has to be
But we have our own problems here, Like I don't
think parents have ever able to do anything about it.
But yeah, I don't do we ever know what happens

(14:48):
to Sora and Gadrin throughout all of the Black Tower Shenanigans.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
One would assume they're fine because Gadrin.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Is got ok okine, right right. Yeah, so one assumes
that him and his mom are fine. But I don't
think we ever see them on page or see them
reunite with Grady or anything. That has to just be
a pure speculative headcanon. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
I don't see any reference to them after this chapter.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
But yeah, Gadrin is definitely Geidl Kane because he's ugly
as a stump, young enough to be paired up with
Brigido when she's you know, reborn in like less than
a year. And yeah, it's described as ugly and has
a g name, So you know, one assumes no one
is not assuming.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Also, I believe it's been confirmed by Sanderson in his
Outside the Books.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Oh really really okay, okay, cool, cool, because it feels
a little water tight of a theory for anything else.
But that's a little satisfying to know. Actually.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah. Brandon Sanderson, however, indicated he knows both who Geidle
is and left a clue and Towers of Midnight about
his identity. Wait, In a later interview, he ended that
Gadrin would be too old.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
I thought it was Olver. That's too old. Yeah, I
thought it was always Oh it must be Olver, and
it's like no, Oliver significantly too.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
He later admitted Grady had multiple children. The new theory
practically confirmed by Sanderson is that Gadriel is another son
of Grady that is either just born or recently conceived. Okay, whatever, whatever, whatever.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
God. Sometimes authors are just wrong, need us readers to
tell them that they're wrong.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yeah, no, you don't. He's he's this is clearly a
g name, ugly like, this is clear. Oh my god,
No it's another son because he's too No, he's not
too old.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Now what have you read?

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Okay? Whatever? God. Sometimes Brandon Sanderson needs to shut up
outside of his books. It's also one of my biggest
problems with his own books too. It's like, dude, can
you just let us read the books and interpret them
like raphos shit? More often?

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, this is why I ignore. I don't really follow
authors in general as a as a thing. I follow
very few authors because I just want the finished book.
I don't want all of their thoughts and musings and
whatever else. I just want the finished work. That's it.
Sanderson is just the most epitomous of all of that.
All right, So news of the White Cloaks and their

(17:09):
parley comes rolling in, and Dane bornh Dane bornhold's all
over the situation, as one does, and yeah, invites paren
you know, to go meet with Gallad, saying I would
totally ambush you, but the Lord captain commander has such
a code of honor that you can trust him not
to ambush you, which parent doesn't really believe. But it

(17:31):
is an interesting expression of the dynamic that this guy
is like, I would ambush you. Just to be clear,
I would ambush you. I will not be ambushing you
because I respect my commander who will not be ambushing you.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
But yeah, I mean he blames them for killing his father,
so I mean there's definitely like some real animosity there.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, and I do like that. Galada and parents' parties
are both like, how crazy are you to do this?
You shouldn't do this, This is dangerous, this is foolish.
Like both of their crew who are having the same complaints,
and these two very honorable, very logical men are like, no,
we're gonna do our leader thing. Where we ignore all

(18:08):
of our advisors and do the unadvisable thing, and yet
somehow annoying, they still miss each other in the most
annoying will they won't they ever?

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Because again Bornhold never says Lord Captain Commander Madrid have
demondred right? Can damnondred right? Yeah? Just say the name,
say the name.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Like we knew the Lord Captain Commander's name every other
time he walked on stage, every other time he's been
announced by one of his subordinates, he gets his full
title and legal name. This one time for a plot,
it happens to get left out.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
And you do you think, well, uh god, what's the
spy master's name who came from the White Cloaks?

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Ballwer?

Speaker 2 (18:43):
Ballwer? You think Balwer wouldn't immediately suss out who the
Lord Captain Commander is?

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, I just I refuse to believe that Balwar can
be that ub touse when Gallad was a pawn in
his old master's machinations. Like, I just I don't, I
don't buy it.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
So he walks in, and of course, you know, the
first thing Galad does is go, oh, you got golden eyes.
You must be a dark friend, because that that was true.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
I didn't believe that, but that confirms everything else.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
It's like no, no, wow.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
And Paren walks in and goes, oh, the white Cloaks
smells terrible, but the leader smells slightly better, So I
guess I can work with them. Maybe possibly, Yay, Galad's
a fanatic who's not fanatical.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
That doesn't even make sense, right, the leader of the
and like, shouldn't this be the group that's less fanatical?
I thought it was like the these are the good ones, right,
these are the ones who didn't have the issues with
the as, the questioners, who aren't the torturers, who aren't
the ones who're crazy fanatical. So yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, yeah. So they do a little bit of a
back and forth. You know, he said, she said, potato, potato.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
You killed some white cloaks a few years back.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah. Parent demands a more formal parley, which Galad snap
decisions decides he doesn't want to do. It's like the
first time we've ever seen Galad make up truly incorrect
decision because he actually goes back on it. But yeah,
that's just setting up the back and forth that we're
gonna have to suffer through. Forever.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
And so then we go back to Glaude's POV where
he basically says, you know, since he has yellow eyes, we're.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Gonna fight, oh right, and paren literally doesn't take him
captive when Grady's like, I could just nab this guy. Yeah, yeah,
it would have been so simple to just do a
little reverse ambush, the little una reverse on who's the
asshole here? And no, parent's so honorable.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
And then exchange them for the prisoners, be like, give
me my prisoners back and you can have your large
captain commander back.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
It would have been so simple, So many last chapters
of me banging my head against the wall if we
had just done that.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Chapter eleven, an unexpected letter, Let's get away from the
parents stuff.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
Matt and Elaine, let's do it well, mostly Elaine but Elaine,
laughing at Matt. I guess this one does deserve a reading. Sure, yes,
they can't possibly think I'll sign this, Elaine said, tossing
the sheaf of papers on to the floor beside her chair.
It's unlikely that they do. Dylon said. Her golden hair

(21:23):
was pristine, her firm face controlled, her slim body poised.
The woman was perfect. It was unfair that she should
look so pristine, while Elaine felt like a sow fattened
up and ripe for the slaughter. The heart in Elaine's
sitting room crackled warmly. Wine sat in the pitcher on
one of the wall's sideboards, but of course she wasn't
allowed any of that if one more person tried to

(21:45):
offer her bloody goat's milk. Brigita lounged near the far wall,
golden braid hanging over her right shoulder, contrasting with her
white collared red coat and sky blue trousers. She poured
herself a cup of tea and smiled over it. Amused
by Elaine's annoyance, Elaine could feel the emotion through the bond.
They were the only ones in the room. Elaine had

(22:05):
retired to the sitting room after accepting the proposal from A.
Laurien's messenger, explaining that she would like to consider the
offer in private. Well, she'd consider it, consider it trash,
for that was all it was. I love Elaine when
she's pissed piste a Lane's pretty good, and Kate reads
pissed off Elaine really really well.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Now I actually do enjoy this. This chunk of Elaine, right.
I think it's fun, It's well written. Pregnant Elaine is
just I think, a fun character, even though she does
really dumb, risky stuff and everyone's like, ah, I don't know.
I like it.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
I also like getting to see the after we win
the succession war. The plot continues right the succession arc.
I find a lot more frustrating than her figuring out
how to shore up her power after she technically gets
the throne.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Same same, we definitely have talk a little bit about
a Laura and when we'll get to her though.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, for sure. So basically we have to start with
this proposal, which is that Alurian is saying, you need
to release the political prisoners that you've taken, you know,
the three women whose names I'm forgetting, and a couple
of other people. She's like, you have to let them
go because reasons reasons politics.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Are Mila, Nian and Elania are the three.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yes, yes, those three women, and so to let them
go is you know, a show of reconciliation whatever whatever.
But it also puts loyalty towards the Laurian, Like there's
all this you know, who owes who quid pro quo
kind of stuff, and Alaurian is for some reason proposing this,
which pisses a Lane off because it's like she's working
for her enemies. And you know, Alaurian is supposed to be,

(23:46):
you know, more like Dialan, right, She's supposed to be
like an honorary aunt who is best friends with her
mom and one of her most solid supporters, and instead
she's like actively undermining her. It's a whole thing, and
as we learn, there are reasons for that. It's not
just a Laurian being petty. There's stuff going on here.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Right, because, like go back through a Laurian's history, she
was an ally, but she was exiled right by Morgeze right,
beaten and exiled, beaten and exiled. But there was a
point where she was talking about supporting.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Elaine No's She's the never trick cand hold out, Like
when she gets exiled by more Gaze, she is over it.
She never wants to see another trickcand on the throne.
She's very solid about that.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Hmm. Path of Daggers, chapter twenty eight. Hold On. So,
according to Dilon in the Path of Daggers, when she's
laying out her threats, Luon and Alaurian support Elaine, but
may switch to like and may support her instead, So
at least in that moment, maybe I'm rereading this chapter

(24:55):
summary incorrect. Let me do it quick.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Either that or Dialon is super delusional. Yeah. I feel
like every time Alaurian gets to speak for herself she
is a never tracanned absolutist.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah. Maybe I feel like that's more of a hope
that she would support.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Her because of the history that Dylan and Alurian and
Morgaze all had. Right, She's like, well, the three of
us are tight, like, of course she's going to come around,
and a Laurian's like, the fuck I am? I was
publicly whipped No interesting?

Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, So yeah, I think that was just Dilan over
like Overest, thinking oh, she'll come to us because and
not actually getting her.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Actually yeah, yeah, Dylan was really hopeful for that entire
process and kept being overly optimistic. But the real reason
why this proposal is happening is not because a Laurian
hates Elaine, but because Duhara is yes anding her frustrations
with Elaine.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
Right right, So she's being advised by a black Ajah.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
Sister operating as an Alida aligned red right right, It's
really never gonna be a good situation.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
And so that's where I assume that this really frustrating
proposal that comes out is like, yes, this is actually
the Black od Jaw sabotaging her.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I think it's both Elida
making sure that Elaine can't succeed without her and the
Black Auja making sure she can't succeed period, like I
think Duhara is double dipping.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
And because the timelines, this is happening before a Gwaine
over throws Alida and reveals the Black Oudjaw and Varren's letters,
you know, and Varren commits suicideal this is all happening
long before that.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, I would assume that this is maybe around when
a Gwaine's getting captured and into the White Towers. Is
probably roughly around then.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Which is just crazy that that's like two books ago.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah, I know, I know. But yeah. So now Dalon
and Burgita are debating the merits of the proposal in
the sense that these prisoners are expensive to keep, and
keeping them loses its value over time, so choosing when
and how to get of them is a super valid
thing to do, even if you don't like this proposal

(27:04):
per se.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
And of course Brigida says, we should murder them, you know,
like they're just they're prisoners, they're for political prisoners. They
should be executed right for treason essentially.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Meanwhile, the political operators are like, no, but I love
this next paragraph.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
So our soldiers can die. But the noble's bloody walk away,
Brigida asked. Then she raised her hand before a link
of brod has spared lecture.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Why do they always send the bore?

Speaker 2 (27:31):
I understand, I don't agree, but I understand it's always
been this way. And it's like, yeah, thank you Brigida
for pointing out the fact that like, yeah, soldiers can die,
you know, on an order to take a few inches
of hallway. But yet the person who is willing to
fight and have those people sacrifice their lives on their
behalf is not Their life is not up for grabs.

(27:53):
The life is not at risk, and it's like, maybe
it should be.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Why don't princess fight the wars? Why do they always
send them? You know, yeah, no, it's I do appreciate
Burgita being the voice of that's not fucking fair right
in this moment it's really nice to have her, this big,
strong hero soldier, just being like, this is fucked up,

(28:18):
and then the two politicians saying, anyway, it's just like, ah,
like I get I like Burgida. I'm not gonna argue
it as like, obviously, this is the way things are,
this is the way things have always been. But acknowledging
that it's fucked up is important. Maybe we can change
it someday. Certainly in this moment it won't happen, but

(28:38):
we should at least state for the record that this
is not okay.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
But you know, it is one of the reasons why
being president is is statistically one of the most dangerous
jobs out there. Right, The number of people who are
a president who have been murdered in office is actually,
as a percentage, a lot higher than almost any of
the job.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, well, that's also what you get with very small
sample sizes.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Thank you for pointing that out.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
But yeah, no, I mean, being being the leader of
a large organization that does many violent things at scale
is not supposed to be a safe position. Although I
guess it is supposed to be a safe position because
a lot of resources get put into making it safe.
What can I use Swiss Guard. It's just really funny
though that the basic soldier is like, seems like the

(29:26):
rich people should probably have to have some consequences, and
the two very rich people.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
Just look at her like crazy, No, that's yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Anyway, Why why do we have a plub in here?

Speaker 2 (29:39):
How can we play game with people's life if it's
not a game?

Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, like you do realize that we're more important because
we wear nice clothes, right, Like that is obvious to
you anyway.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Not to bring up Dungeon Crawler, Carl, but one of
my favorite things about that series is that, you know,
it starts out as the people are stuck in the
dungeon and the aliens get to come down and play
roles and can murder at their heart's content and aren't
in danger, and he's able to change the rules so
that they are in danger, and that sort of changes everything.

(30:11):
That these rich people are now trapped in a game
where they can be murdered, where before it was just
them hunting for fun. I just.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
That's a dark premise.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yes, it's a dark book. It's a bloody dark series
for sure, for sure, but a lot of comedy as well,
which balances it all.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Right, So we're talking about how a Lane's going to
shore up power given that she's nibbling away at it
with giving chunks to the sea folk and political prisoners
and da da da da da, And she says, you
know what we should do, We should have a war
on two fronts. Not really but kind.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Well, I think the sea folk thing is setting up
the fact that she wants to get the kin so
she doesn't have to pay the seafolk in land anymore. Right,
this is the hole She had a bargain with them
to be channelers for her and do gateways, and now
she's like, Okay, I can do that with then and
get a better deal out of them and tell the
sea folk to go. Because this chapter ends with her
going to the can and basically saying let's get them

(31:07):
here in and Or and give them a base of power.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
She still has to give the land to the sea folk,
though she just makes it less valuable for them than
they thought it was gonna be.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
I know, I know. And she's she's also like, I
don't want to depend on the sea folk anymore, right,
Like that's a big part of I think this is
sort of starting a thought process of like yes, they've
been valuable, but I don't want to be dependent on
them as a foreign entity.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
Right, And she's already given them a chunk of land, which,
as Dialand points out, as like kind of a precedent
breaking things, it's a little bit uncool.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
But gives them old piece of land that's not actually
on the river, which so they have to like get
off the river to get to the piece of land
and pass through you know, customs.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Anyway, it's a whole thing. It's a whole thing. But yeah,
Elaine says, I literally just finished one more. We should
pick up another one. Though in fairness, Kyrieane doesn't have
to be a war, not necessarily, given that the dragon
wants it to be handed over, et cetera, et cetera.
But from where Brigida and Daland are sitting, it's like

(32:08):
you haven't even cooled your heels yet from the last conflict.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
But she does use her conqueror of Kyrieenne to calm
and appease the nobles of and Or. Right, she's able
to give them lands in Kyrieenne of people who have died,
and all of a sudden, you know she's got this
this people want to be in her favor because she's
able to give them things. She's bribing them.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah. No, it's a really good swave political move, but
it's also a gamble, right, Like she basically does double
or nothing with this move, and her advisers are like, ooh,
maybe play it safe. Help, this is scary and it
works out in the end really well.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Instead, well, she's like, it's it's last battle time. There's
no I'm not playing it safe anymore, right, Like we
need to unite. And she points out that like if
I have Kyrienne and and or two of the most
powerful countries, Rand has basically alien all the southern countries,
t her. Yeah, and he's got the South, Elaine sort
of has the middle, and the border lands are going
to fall into line, you know, and parents bringing sort

(33:06):
of what I would call the unconquered lands that sort
of chunk south of the two rivers west of Rand's territory. Right,
that's kind of like abandoned Mirandy, all them parents bringing those,
and Matt should be bringing the shan Chan to the table. Right,
so you really look at Grand's allies, I have really conquered. Right,

(33:28):
Land is in charge of the borderlands. Matt's got the
shawan Chan. Parent's got the two rivers in that area.
Elaine has the middle of the country and Rand has
the south, and they should all be bringing them together.
And I kind of wish that there was a little
more togetherness in the last battle the shawan Chan kind
of being wishy washy, right. I'm like, Matt, do your job.

(33:52):
Paren brings his group and they're not very coherent as
a group. I wish they were a little more coherent.
I think it's because he doesn't have a lot of channelers.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, but it really works out well for Kyrion and
and Andor to this noble swapping thing because they both
have a lot of disgrace to nobles and depopulated estates
and doing the because uh Rant does that with Tyr
and Kyrie in as well, a little bit where he's
really trying to show I mean, in his case, it's

(34:20):
more of a keep them out of their home country
so that way they can't get into trouble. But you see,
you know, people setting down new roots and developing new
political alliances and like maybe having a bit more international
camaraderie because now you have family members in both countries.
Kind of do it.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Feels to me a little bit like Spain, France and
England all like exchanging nobles through marriage. Like yeah, it's
you got Alien Kyrieen and and or all kind of
inter breeding, intermingling. You have this class of nobles that
kind of rule over all three countries. It's all one
intermingled family. Like it's you know, he's basing this on

(34:58):
European history.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, definitely, one of Elaine's children is going to be
the Queen Victoria of the whole scenario in the next age.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
So she says her claim to the Kyriene throne is strong.
Have we what is that besides Rand's decree.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Her father was the Kyrieenne and noble. Remember, yeah, she's
literally descended from I guess he was brother to the
king at the time when he married more Gaze.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
Okay, so she's literally niece to the King of Kyriene at.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
One point Yourn the then king of Kyriene I believe
is the relationship. But yeah, that she has an actual
familial pre dragon Reborn connection to the throne. Plus the
dragon Reborn wants her to have.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
It, and assuming her grandparent on that side was king
right because her uncle's father would have been king, I assume,
so before him, we don't. I don't think we have
direct history. But assuming that the line wasn't broken.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
Right, they were not some upstart new house to the throne.
They were like a normal kyrie in a house to
be holding the throne for the you know. Yeah, however
many generations and yeah, so that's a big part of
where her claim comes from. Is her father Tarangale Damadred.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Tarangale Damondred, that's right.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, And there was the whole thing about how like
he gave up the right to name the children because
of the fact that he was marrying into more Gazes
country rather than her marrying into his. And so that's
why the kids Ritra Cans instead of Damon Dreads. There's
a whole thing.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
But then why is Galade Damon Dread?

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Because when Trengale and Ti Grain were married, the dynamic
was different and they their kid was named Damondred. But
when he made a play for the next Queen of
Anne or the negotiation was different because I guess Tom
was in the picture or whatever. Just I don't know,

(36:50):
assume Tom is the reason ultimately why that happened.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Mm hm. I kind of assumed it's like, oh, well,
you've already got your air with your name. He's the
oldest son.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
That might have been part of it, but yeah, you
have your firstborn son. So now the queen is going
to have her firstborn daughter be you know, named properly
for her purposes as a future queen.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
That's right. It's been so long since I thought about
that family tree that I kind of forgot how it
was all everyone was related, you know, I don't know.
She does have a strong, strong claim to the throne.
You're right, You're right. That's probably the granddaughter of the
previous king and the niece of the one after that.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
All right. I mean Gallad probably could make a claim
to sure if he was not a white clok. I
mean'm pretty sure being a white cloak means you give
up your other claims.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Kind of deal.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
But like, you know, he has almost the same ancestry claim,
like if they were really that hard up for people
with claims, which they aren't, because obviously so Nori walks in, right,
he's got a little addendonym to the meeting. They thought
they were done for the day, and he says, I
have a couple of pieces of news actually that probably

(37:52):
shouldn't have waited till tomorrow. So here we go.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
So this is where we find out that Duhara is
advising Laurian.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
But also that she wants to be seen advising Olorian.
That's also part of it is that this is not
actually like a true secret, this is a covert fuck you.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Basically, I think because Duhara came in and said, I
want to be your advisor, and Elaine said, absolutely fucking not.
I would never trust you. You're part of the Red
Ajaw and Black even though I don't know it, And
so she is off visibly supporting Elaine's enemies because of
that rejection would be my assumption.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, making a show of hiding it, that's totally ineffective.
So that way, it's just like you don't see me, I'm.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Going to put up my hood, but go in my
branded carriage with all my attendants.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
Yes, very subtle, very subtle, very subtle, but ironically so
it was subtle enough that Elaine needed her spy master
to take initiative.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yes, well, that's why you.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Need a novice spy master mind you. This is a
man who was not practiced in the craft, and he
still managed to do better than her figure this out.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
I do like this. However, I have reason to believe
that Duhara said I may have had in the hand
in the documents, seemed to be treating with unusual reverence.
He glanced at the page's lane had tossed to the floor.
One bore a distinct outline of her shoe.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
So funny. I like that one unusual reverence.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
And I don't think we ever get a conclusion about
Duhara's plot. I don't think is she ever dealt with.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
I booh, how does Duhara die? I feel like it's
a little bit funky, but I don't remember how google.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
During the last battle, Duhara was co opted by Heslam.
Duhara and Phalen were in a circle led by Haslam
and faced off against the circle led by Avienda, the
two Black sisters. We're incinerated by Avianda. So she gets,
uh yeah, fireballed by Avianda.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
I wonder when and how she leaves and or and
messing with a lane. Do we see that or does
that just kind of I think she must vanish at
some point. Maybe it's when Elaine tries to do some
stuff she just kind of bounces.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
One would assume that the message gets out right the
last battle all the dread Lords, there's a point where
all the dread Lords converge, and one would assume that
happens shortly after like and go to be with the
dark One in the borderlands. Right, Yeah, at.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
Some point she chooses to leave from and.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Or, and so at some point I assume she chooses
to leave and gets like recruited. I don't know if
they're recruited by the Forsaken or if it's just like
they get as summoning through their Yeah, there's.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
Some kind of bat signal, and then they all go
to like a central organizing station and get like assigned
to their Forsaken to go off and function up.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
And one would assume that happens shortly after Agwayne cleanses
the White Tower, because everybody has Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
That would make sense that probably Duhara bounces shortly after
the White Tower purge as soon as news oh, right,
because it would make sense, right, because it would be
a race between if a Gwayne's message or a Black
Sister's message would get to and Or first. Right, if
Elaine is going to be able to take Duhara into custody,
or if Duhara will get let to note to bail
quickly before that happens, So yeah, it must be. It

(41:29):
must be in response to a agwain cleansing the tower.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Because Duhara is on the list.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Oh yeah. And then next we have a page that
Nori treats with unusual reverence, which is of course Math's letter.
Rory usually values his papers, and this one he's like,
this is a dead rat of a piece of paper.
And we get a little bit of a digression talking
about why the mercenary captains are being handled the way

(41:55):
they are, which is essentially that Elaine has had a
lot of the same realizations that paren has, except without
all the misgivings, but just that we need everyone who
wants to swing a sword collected for the last battle.
We don't need them for a succession war, et cetera,
et cetera, but we do need them for a tarment guiden.
So she's trying to sort of collect as many mercenaries

(42:16):
as she can and keep them in a staple holding
pattern around the city in preparation for the last battle
ultimately happening.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Okay, yeah, and I don't think chees Mel and Duhara
are ever in contact. She's not part of that group
that Elaine deals with later, right, because those are the
ones that are known dark friends. They're the ones who
have been known for a while.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
Yeah, this is where we get the letter. The scrawl
on the page was on even there were numerous crossed
out words, and some of the spelling was creative, and
so yeah, you get we go through here and there's
like a couple of crossed out words. But like I
said earlier, this is a this would be a rough
draft that would scent be sent. I feel like it's
like someone typing up an angry email and sending it

(43:02):
instead of deleting it and retyping.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
This is the stream of consciousness blowing off steam first,
first crash, because yeah, sometimes I'll do that right to
write an email or an essay or something. It's just
you stream of consciousness, what you emotionally want to say.
And then yeah, you look it over, you start editing,
you end up deleting the vast majority of it in

(43:24):
the course of getting to the final version. But this
is that first just brain dump onto the page.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Can I also say I think it's unfortunate that it's
not read by Michael Kramer in the audiobook. I think
having Kate Redding read it makes it sound less like Matt.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
It sounds well, it sounds like how Elaine is reading
in her head is exactly internal voices here.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's more of Elaine's internal voice of
what Matt sounds like than actual Matt. And I think
it would be this would actually be a fun thing
to get Michael Kramer to read.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
That would be fun. Yeah, because yeah, when you know
from me at least, when I don't know someone's speaking
voice and I read their written stuff, they'd sound like me.
But if I know someone's speaking voice and I know
how their mannerisms go and the way that they choose
to like gesture and pause when they talk, that when
I read their written stuff, I hear it in their cadence.

(44:16):
Matt and Eline have spent enough time together. It should
sound like Matt. It shouldn't sound like her internal voice.
It should sound like Matt. She knows what Matt would
sound like. So yeah, I agree, we should have We
should have Michael read this.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
No, and like the crossed out, he crosses out angry
and writes perturbed, But then in parentheses says that means angry,
and it's like.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Okay, again, this is venting, this is this is for,
this is the inside words, this is stream of conscious
is venting, this is not it's so it's so weird.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
And there's one where he's using his ring like a
signet like it was and the writs paper, crosses that
out and writes proper like that's just writing fast, you know. Yeah,
there's no spell check on this thing. So and yeah
he said and like I was gonna write this.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Tom is laughing at me so hard that I'm done.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
I'm done. I'm not even gonna like And so there's
that sort of like, yeah, this is just it was
a couple of guys who probably you know, made a
poor decision to send a letter and not rewrite it.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah. I also love how he throws in the most
important piece of information so casually and found postand but
like that's the whole point is the Bell Founders. The
Bell Founders is the most critical thing, and it is
given as little emphasis as him being married. Right, even
him being married is given more words and set up

(45:34):
than the Bell Founder's line. But that's the real crux.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
And you acted like a queen then, So I guess
I don't know why I'm surprised that now you act
like a queen when you really are a queen again.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Stream of consciousness, this is just dictating into your note
in your phone.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
So yeah, in my head, I built that up as
a much more pray on based misspelling bad letter. And
now I'm like, eh, I could do without the pps.
Don't mind me calling your backside pretty like that. I
think I could have just gotten cut. Yeah, and also
the PS salutations means greeting, Like, there's a couple of
things in here that I think would if it was

(46:11):
just a little bit shorter, a little less try hard
on the matt humor, I would enjoy it better.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
I'm much nodding, much nodding.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
But it's not as egregious as I had built up
in my head by far.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
That happens. Sometimes we turn a bath into a series
of baths, or a few chapters into a book and
a half worth of complaining. Right, yeah, Fuji points out
credit where credit is due. These are wa characters trying
to communicate, trying, which you know, but they are trying,
which is more than most of them do. Yeah, this

(46:46):
is emotionally cathartic for Elaine, aside from getting the news
that Tom is alive and all that. Like, she's just
she's highly struggled, and he just gives her this ridiculous
little standard routine and she laughs and it just makes
her whole mood relax and it's good.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Well, and she's felt guilt over abandoning this group of
people in Abu Dhar. She's like, the stan Chan came
and I took the kin and I get way the
fuck out of there, and I left behind these people.
And as far as she knows, they could all be dead,
they could all be enslaved by the shan Chan. She
has no idea, And so I think there's just there
was some relief in there, some unloading of guilt.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Intention right, Like it's one of those like things where
you carry it for someone, you forget you have it,
and then and then it releases and you're like, WHOA,
I didn't know my shoulders could be that low. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah,
there's a lot going into her outburst here, but it's
it's good to see La and laugh. She's really cranky
and now she's you know, laughing hysterically.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
It's Greatgew's line, he's got a nice butt, but his
face is to far too pretty. I'm not into pretty men.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
She's like, I will admire him from behind, only.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
The front.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Eh yeah, yeah, And then she says, finally someone I
can go drinking with who doesn't look at me as
their bloody military Superior's kind of echoing paren in a
lot of ways, just that, like, I need people who
don't look up to me because that makes me uncomfortable.
And Matt, you know, Matt is our irreverent friend. He

(48:16):
will not look up to you at all.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
And Brigito was never really meant to be the commander
of troops, right, that's not her role again, that should
have been Godwin, who should be here doing that right now,
or and should have been during the whole session war.
But you know, and here Elaine has a good instinct
that Matt's soldiers are much more worthwhile than most other soldiers.

(48:38):
Yeah yeah, I think that's to Matt's credit, right, She's
she's understanding something about Matt. She still doesn't believe in
his luck.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
So funny she.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Does say, oh, soldiers, and they're superstitions, when Brigidi is like, no,
he she doesn't believe Brigido when he's like, no, he's
actually very lucky.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Yeah, she just looks down on all Soldiery stuff as
being oh, those silly plebs and they're superstitious. It's just
like you need to pay more attention to the line,
as Brigida.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Said, and then immediately is like, oh, yeah, who is he? Well,
he's Tavern, So could do you not see how that okay,
how the luck could be real when in one breath
you say he doesn't have the luck, in another he's
Teverean when tavern is the bending of the pattern, which
could be interpreted very easily as luck.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
It's like the smallest stretch you could possibly make. Right right, anyway,
She tells Nuri, next time someone claims to know me,
make sure to at least run it by Burgida, and
also definitely invite this guy in because he is who
he says he is.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
He is a friend, and he's got kyrieene in soldiers,
and we just talked about taking over Kyrieenne. So let's
use those soldiers to be native Sons. Because remember, you
know a lot of the Band of the Red Hand,
the origin was Matt.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Matt picks up the Kyrie in in nobility during the
shidow getting kicked out of Kyrie, right, he has a
little core of the Tyrants, and then the are looking
down on the Kyrieane and really aggressively, and Matt has
to kind of be like, no, y'all are equal, but yeah,
it is Tyrants and Kyrieene and who make up the

(50:09):
band before it starts just attracting everyone with a sword.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Right, Okay, okay, you're right. I got those two scenes
confused in my head.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Easy to do. They are two asshole countries that mostly
just operate as big military units. It's easy to confuse them.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
And Matt's playing dice and cards with the nobles, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yeah, exactly exactly, but yeah, he does have a lot
of Kyrie in and compared to most nationalities, it's Tyrants
and Kyrie and are like the two big wedges of
the pie chart. And then everything else is you know,
a regulars from everywhere, I.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Guess, except you know the fact that it grew by
multiple sizes while he was away. So it's like the
core group might be Kyrieenne and Tyrine, but I bet
the majority are from you know, Murandi.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
Right, like yeah, Atara and yeah, yeah, but nonetheless she
has a lot of Kyrie and to potentially loan to
Elaine for a more or less peaceful transition of power
in their own native land, which in many ways Elaine
would be going into help continue finishing what was happening
when Matt was in their first recruiting them, right, like

(51:16):
the shidow taking over and then the nobility rebelling against Rand.
Is like they're still dealing with the fallout from that.
That is the power of vacuum that Elaine is looking
to finally fill permanently and stably.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
No, And she makes the point with Kyrie and I
began knitting as ault together. Rand already controls Ilien and
Tyr and has bonds to the Ieel. You know, she
doesn't know about parents, she doesn't know about Matt, but
like there is this like bonding of the people and
bringing together the different sections of the world to fight
the last battle.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
She didn't get the eel fin prophecy about the North
and the South must be as one, but she's got
the same general idea that like, maybe unity is the
correct approach to this upcoming world shattering battle thing.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
And she's also like, maybe I should be in charge
of the Dragon's empire after Rand dies, if he dies,
but she's probably gonna die.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
I mean, she's looking at Kyrie and it's a void
of power, and then she's extrapolating forward to Rand's much
larger empire and the inevitable void of power that his
death will create. And she's like, mm, a pretty savvy
political operator, I should be positioned to take.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
That because Alien and Teer border her lands, right, So,
and if they're both going to be left leaderless, all
of a sudden, she controls a third of the continent, basically,
everything but the border lands and the shan Chan lands.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
Yeah, and in many ways, you know, she's got the
right arrogance to try to, you know, match hawk Wing
in some ways, right like and or Or Camlin has
been an institution since the embers of Arter Hawking's empire.
For her to say, well, it seems right that the
son should never set on the andor At empire. It
feels keeping in character with who that nation is.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
It is Camelot, right Like that's yeah. And so then
she's just basically like, yeah, I'm going to go take
Kyrie in. I need traveling to be able to rule
to major cities at the same time, So let's go
talk to the kin.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Yeah. Yeah, basically we get a timestamp that Rand is
really dark right now. But she really doesn't have time
to think about that, you know, she just sort of
notes it to the side and then says, Yeah, more
immediate issue, let's figure out the future of the Kin.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
What did she say about Rand?

Speaker 1 (53:18):
She glanced to the west where she could feel that
lot of emotions that was Rand. The only thing she
ever sensed from him these days was a cold anger
buried deeply? Was he an Ara Domon?

Speaker 2 (53:28):
So, yeah, timestamp which.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
I think we saw Paren was thinking about Rand earlier.
I was like, oh, yes, Rand feels like shit for
whatever reason. And he sees a vision of Rand with
Ninive on muddy streets. And then Elaine thinks, here is
he in Aaron Demon's I think he is. That is
the era Demon section.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Yes, yeah, he's failing Ara Domon right now. Yeah, where
he's cutting open the grain section of the grain and
right right, yeah, that it's all going bad and everyone's
going to starve, and he's abandoning those people.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
Right, That's that's where we're at in terms of the timeline.
But yeah, that's not really Elaine's problem. She's got plenty
of food. We write, food is not so much an
issue for her. She's worrying about the future. The present
is less of an issue for her. The future is
the issue. And yeah, I guess I should do a readout.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Uh, sure, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
She could not let that happen. The woman in her
cringe to think of planning for Rand's death, but the
Queen could not be so squeamish. The world was changing.
I realize it will be difficult to administer two nations,
Elaine said, but I must hold Kyrie in for the
good of both thrones. She turned and met Dilond's eyes,
and the older woman nodded slowly. It seems you are committed.

(54:39):
I am, Elaine said, but I feel I'm going to
need reliable use of traveling if I'm going to manage it.
Let's set up a meeting for me with Jamaico and Elise.
We need to discuss the future of the king. That

(55:32):
is going to be a very productive relationship for and Or.
Having the kin base there is going to have short,
medium and long term benefits for and Or well.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
And if you look at where the White Tower is positioned,
it's kind of in the no man's land between Kyrieenne
and Or and the borderlands, and she's already got the
Black Tower there. It's like, you know, she really is
sort of making her this space the center of channeling
because she's got the kin where the White Tower is
going to retire, She's probably going to expand upwards into

(56:01):
that land where the White Tower is, and she's got
the Black Tower there already. Yeah, because like, look, I
don't know, I mean, who's going to rule? Well, it
doesn't Ran set up rulers for Illian and Tier.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
He sets up stewards for the Dragon.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
Don't uh, doesn't the steward of Tier get become king?

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Yeah, he does transition the steward to being a proper king.
That's Darlin, and what about Lilian Alien They find Stepaneos
in the White Tower, still undamaged, and they pick someone
from the Council who's not tainted or a dark friend
or whatever, and yeah, he gives it back. I forget

(56:40):
the specifics of how Ilion goes down, So.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
One would assume then that Elaine doesn't take them over
after the last battle, and they just maintain that when
they signed the Piece of the Dragon, that that's just
the borders are where they are.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Right, because Elaine has a large enough empire that she's
got a she's a good ally, right, you don't have
to take over a thing in order to be in
charge of dealing with the sean Chan issue. Right, there's
the whole like in abvien As the vision they call
like the Pact of the Griffin, right, Like, it's not
one nation, it's a mutual defense agreement. And Alan's not
you know, power hungry for power's sake. She just has

(57:13):
a very big sense of what stability looks like, which,
you know, in fairness, given the way we've seen these
nations interact over the last two years of this book's timeline,
she's not wrong.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
Right, but a lot of changes in the last two years,
I mean, and.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
The world's been shrinking for centuries, right, the human world
has been in retreat, like the Ogier talk about, for
centuries upon centuries, So looking to make a nice big
bubble to hold stability, and it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
And then to expand out right like the one would
assume that a lot of the unclaimed lands, now that
you've got trains, right, are very quickly going to be populated, well.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Especially with the loss of the Dark One and the
Dark Armies of Trolis. Right, there's going to be so
much room for humanity to finally expand and have their
birth rate go up and not all be slaughtered by
the age of sixteen and Tralla grades or whatever. So
they're going to be able to, yeah, move into spaces
that they haven't had access to for many centuries, and

(58:09):
with such better technology. Yeah, it makes sense to set
those those boundary markers out nice and big anticipating that
growth period.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Yeah, and one wonders how much and Or and Kyriene
are going to continue to be separate nations, right, Yeah,
and then I can I bet the Iel end up
a lot of them end up settling in the unclaimed
lands of Kyriane because there's a huge chunk of land
between the waste in Kyrieenne that they've abandoned because they're
afraid of the ideal.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
And then they're nice and close to the waste if
they want to go, you know, ex visit their family
who don't like being in the.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Wet length, or go to Ridian, right, because Ridian's also
become a major city, right, that's being a major hub
of commerce and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
So, yeah, you're going to have a population center at
that mountain pass. It makes sense that the ideal would
be the ones gravitating to do that totally. Yeah, the
fourth Age is going to be a real boom for sure.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Definitely. Yeah. No, again, the only issue is the Sean Chan.
But I just I just believe that the culture is
has to change in the shawn Chan. Like the fact
that all of the Suldam can be collared just means
that the society and the power dynamic is going to
fall apart. There's just no way they can maintain it.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
I mean a Guyan and bail Domon alone are on
a mission. Lyellwyn and bail Domon, they're on like a
mission on their own to try to, you know, jail
break people's minds for lack of a better term. Many
people are on that mission. It's Yeah, the shawn Chan
culture is going to change profoundly and for the better.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
Yeah, we'll have to talk a lot about the bargain
between Elaine and Tuon about like the channelers and how
they can they can request to be collared, And I
just I have a lot of curiosity about the implications
of that it'll be fun to talk about.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
That chapter will not be a doubleheader. Just making a prediction.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
Now, for sure, for sure, But I think we're done
with this doubleheader.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah, that was quick. I will not say it short
and sweet, but it was short and fine. I guess
it's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Yeah, you know those chapters, especially the parent Gala chapters,
like one thing's happening, right, it's parent meeting with Glad
and a few things around that. But like Sanderson really does,
sometimes when he sets things up, is setting up one
or two things per chapter. He's not necessarily doing a
lot of deep, deep movement in these chapters. Yeah, he's

(01:00:32):
an outliner. And when you can spot the outline, you
can spot the header of that outline, which was parent
meets with Glad. I can see it in my chapter
summaries right as I go through Sanderson's books. You know,
when I go through Jordan's books, I'd have this happens, Comma,
this happens, Comma, this happens, and I'd be like, well,
I'm leaving out a bunch, but that's enough for us
to get the gift of it. The gist, the gist.

(01:00:54):
I learned that word from reading. That's okay, but my
summaries of the Santa and stuff is generally one sentence
and it captures everything, you know, So it's just it's
even I am actually currently going back and listening to
Warrior of the All Tai, which is Jordan's you know,
proto Wheel of Time slash Barbarian fantasy, and just like, ah,

(01:01:18):
the number of layers going on, even in that sort
of early early book of his, which is a very
simple plot line with very simple characters, kind of reminds
me like if Land was I eel sure, sure, and
the isid I and the wise ones were the same
thing as well, they were merged together, and like, yeah,

(01:01:38):
so there's this the interesting culture and magic system and
it's really good. But uh yeah, just the layers, the
layers that Jordan puts in there almost without trying, almost
just by having rounded characters in the backgrounds. It's so good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Yeah. And speaking of layers, I have layers upon layers
of podcasts that you can find in the show notes
or you can find in theory on our website Foxndrivenmedia
dot com. You definitely should check them out and follow
us on social media on YouTube because all the podcasts
are going to YouTube. Now, if you're a YouTube podcast
listener kind of person, it's another layer of infrastructure.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
You can't see us, you can just hear us.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Yeah. Yeah, we're still not doing our phases. But if
you like to get your podcast through YouTube, which I
know some people do, you can find us there. And otherwise,
Equinox is coming. The world is on fire. I still
don't have a dog. I think those are all the
important pieces of information. I think that's all that the
audience needs to know at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
You don't want to get into the assassinations of political
and non political figures.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Do we want to get into listing all the people
whose deaths should be getting honored? Actually for real, No, no,
we don't. Let's turn recording. Bye everyone, Bye, All right,
recording is on.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
So yeah, you're just tuning in. You missed our stunning
discussion on how much we don't know about video games,
So I'm assuming that's not something we need to repeat
for recording.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Yeah. I think I think the people can can stand
to believe that we're video game geniuses, to believe that
we don't need to disabuse them of that head canon.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Without any evidence to the contrary. You can imagine. I
am an excellent gamer. Life updates. I had my one
year anniversary since my wedding. That was fun. We went
to the coast, had some seafoods, had a good time. Yeah.
So we still seem happy with each other a year later,
So that's going well. I suppose that's good.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
It's now been a year and a day since you
made it formal, a year with a few days, but
over a year.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
And a day, you know, two days.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Yeah, yep, I've celebrated another birthday. I am enjoying my
mid thirties most excellently. I got to go see Thievery
Corporation at an outdoor show, and if you know Thievery Corporation,
you know that was awesome. The band was super on fire.
I danced my butt off. It was great. It was great.
We've both had a very good week.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Yes, so my throat's a little more, uh croaky than normal,
that's yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
My voice doesn't sound like I was screaming for three
hours straight at a literal goddess who was two feet
away from me.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
I'm impressed. I'm impressed that you don't have any leftover scratchiness.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Yeah, no, my voice was fine. My feet which I
expected to be tired, were fine, Like I just sailed
through that on Cloud nine and seriously, they were so
on fire. They were just the band was so tight
and on fire. It was so good. Like it's one
thing to go to a show where people are talented,
it's another thing when they are all thinking together and
like you can just see them making decisions on the

(01:04:36):
fly and having fun. And like half the show was
an encore. I swear it was. It was great.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
It's always fun when they like do more after.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Yeah, yeah, And then the dude came down with it
with the hand to the to the audience and all
the hands were reaching up and I got to touch
the guitarist. It was so cool. I never go up
to the front of the dance thing, and I just
had every possible experience you want to have up there
with none of the bad ones. It was Oh, it's
just so good.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
I can admit though, that Encore stressed me out. I
wish bands just played a set and then left, because
then I don't know how long I'm going to be. Like,
even if I'm enjoying the band, I want to know
when they're going to finish. I have a hard time
not knowing when something's gonna end.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
I do get frustrated with like if I scream loud enough,
will you come back?

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
And like that game back and forth is a little annoying.
But at the same time, I'm also like, if they
come back, I'm so happy that, Like I don't even
care what play with me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
It's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
And then I knew I was gonna need an after
party after or something as long as we can stretch
this out, like sure, I'm not going home and going
to bed for many hours regardless of when you people finish,
because that venu closed early and I was not ready
to be done celebrating.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
Speaking of staying up later, my shift is changing slightly.
I'm going from just for a few months, I'm going
to a more middle of the day shift rather than
early morning shift, which means I have a hat to
practice staying up late every night. So I've gone from
like I need to go to bed at eight thirty two.
I need to be able to stay up till one,
and so I've been stretching that out, and I have
to do that in one weekend. It's a long weekend,

(01:06:05):
but I still have to do that in one weekend.
So I've been trying to stay up later, somewhat unsuccessfully.
I made it till about ten thirty last night before
I wanted to pass out. So my goal for tonight is, like,
let's make it to eleven, maybe eleven thirty. I'll have
to do a very sleepy shift. I'll probably be very
sleepy at work next week for the first couple of days,
and then after that I should be fine. But changing

(01:06:25):
your schedule by six hours in a couple of days
is significant.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
I mean, daylight savings time already sucks, and that's just
one hour.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Yeah, yeah, so you know, I'll pay for it, But
I am looking forward to the changing shift. I think
that's going to be I'm just doing it for a
couple of months, and I think it'll be a nice
just refresher on my schedule to you know, been working
at this job now for almost four years three and
a half, I suppose it's more accurate. And yeah, it's
just nice to chane. I've been working the same shift

(01:06:53):
the whole time, and it's nice to change things up
every once in a while.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
I'm looking forward to the seasonal change. Equinox is like
two weeks from now, not even it's less than two
weeks and I am Now I've had my birthday. I'm like,
you know what, I'm ready for fall. Everyone backup summer.
I'm ready for it to be fall. Now.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
It feels like fall now, it does. It feels like
it's switched very quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
Yeah, it's it's yeah. That we got over half an
inch of rain on Saturday night slash Sunday morning. It's
just like, yeah, it is the fall. Weather is coming,
and I'm I'm finally ready for it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
All right, Well, speaking of a fall, do you want
to talk about I don't know how that relates to
the book whatsoever. I was going to try and do it, but.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Yeah, I know, I can't. I can't see how to
connect my favorite season of all with these chapters. This
is this is just it's fine. Thank you for listening
to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate and
review us on your podcast app, and consider supporting us
on Patreon for ad free episodes. Watt Spoilers is a

(01:07:57):
production of Fox and Raven Media. For more podcasts from
Fox and Ravenmedia, visit our website at Foxendravenmedia dot com.