Distinctions - Towers of Midnight prologue pt1 - EP544 - WoT Spoilers

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is the Weed of Time Spoilers podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Before we get started, I do want to just throw
a little plug in at the top of this episode
for my other podcasts, used to Sew and Autistic Stuff
for Autistic People. I talked about them a lot in
the Tangents episode, but I know from the download numbers
that a lot of you people don't like to listen
to the Tangents episode. And that's fine, that's super valid.

(00:38):
But I just want to let you all know that
I have a new podcast called Autistic Stuff for Autistic
People and it's really cool and you can listen to
me and other autistic coaches talk about life, the universe
and everything autistically. Also, I still have used to sew
going with my mom about sewing stuff, and yeah, you
can check this out. Other than that, I think our
first order of business today as we start a new

(00:59):
book is Patreons.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Patreons over the last let's see March ish was the
last time we thank Patreons. I want to say March sixth,
So we are a couple of months in. I can
do the math seven minus three four more months, which
seems to be and that does seem to be our
normal pace. We seem to jump on patreons every season

(01:23):
or so quarterly our quarterly thank you. There's five people
we have to thank today. Really appreciate those five people
for stepping up and becoming new patrons in the last
quarter yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Last season of time. We will start with Travis Mills,
thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
And then we have Adam Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Next we have zoom In make sure I'm getting these
vowels correct, Trent romreel, rom reel, Trent, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
I mean maybe if you wanted to go rom reel,
I think you could get away with that, sure. And
then we have Kevin Wallbank, Thank you, Kevin, thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
And last but not least, Michael Molina, thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
So thanks to those five people who've joined us over
the last couple of months. Really appreciate the folks again,
the new folks, but always the people who continue to
give month after month, who started many many, many many
years ago on our Patreon and keep contributing. You know,
you guys really do keep us coming back every week.
So thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
And also thank you to everyone who has enough boundaries
with themselves to realize when they need to pull back
a little bit and not support us anymore for a while, Like,
we love the fact that you were here for a while.
It's super great. We're not mad at you for having
to leave. I see the exit surveys in Patreon being like,
I'm so sorry, and like it's okay, we totally get it, Like,

(02:53):
you gotta do what you gotta do. We appreciate your support,
however long or short it is. But you know, of course,
we're always extra excited about the new people and extra
grateful to the people who are still here.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, once you're Patreon, you're always a Patreon. I don't
care if you've stopped donating right, like, you've achieved that status.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, unless you've left because you're mad about me joining,
in which case you may in fact leave your Patreon
status at the door. That's fine.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
I assume none of those people are currently listening. It's
been a minute, I.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Would assume, so. Also, I don't know. Every now and
then I'll go onto our social media and see comments
from people within the last few months being like boo,
and I'm like, why are you still here? If that's
how you feel, I don't get it.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
I feel like they have to discover the podcast recently
and then binged up to that point and then made
that discovery. Right, But it's like, did you not listen
to a newer episode?

Speaker 2 (03:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
I don't understand people's podcast listening habits sometimes.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Me either, me either. But I enjoy making this podcast.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
Exactly exactly, and I enjoy that some people do listen
to it and some people continue to listen to it.
And you know, I mean, even at wat Con, the
number of people that came up to me and said,
you know, I really like what you're doing. I like
that you're creating this sort of archive of content recapp
us at I was like, it's great because if I
if I need to, you know, do some research into

(04:14):
an episode, it's really nice that I can just pull
or into a chapter. Specifically, I can pull up your
episode and kind of listen to it while I'm just
doing other things, and that gets me in the headspace.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
But with all of the context in Oh.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, I'm paraphrasing a little bit.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
But yeah, I love the idea that we're part of
the research materials that other content creators can draw on
to like get into their space.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
That's amazing because I feel like there's like the levels
of it. There's like you go to the wiki, right,
and the wiki has some some opinions. You go to
the encyclopedia wat Encyclopedia WATT is just the facts, ma'am.
You know, I think that's great. But then there's just
like opinions and ideas, and we I think we synergize,
to use a corporate word, a bunch of different content

(04:58):
and material that we've over the years and the cons
we've gone to and the people we've talked to, and
it comes together sometimes in really wacky theories. And I've
also read comments that they're like, you guys, have your
theories are too fucking wacky. I'm sick of it. Stick
to the books, which is totally fair. I've definitely come
up with some crazy nonsensical theories. But I think that's
the fun of it, is, like you're not just if

(05:20):
we were just reciting the facts, you know, I just
go to WAT wiki and start reading off the entries.
That's not what we're doing. We're definitely doing color commentary
and trying to figure out what happens. And I feel
like we've made some good discoveries along the way. So absolutely, well,
I've got to read in this intro, the prologue to
the prologue, the sorry, the epitaph to the prologue, I

(05:43):
think is what it is.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, yeah, I was reading that being like, there's literally
nothing to do here except read the whole thing, right,
simply the only choice that one has.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
So the only thing I want to say about this
this introduction is to remember again that translation in this
case is not translating one language to another. It's the
geometry definition of translation. Right. If you look at a
solid object, it can be rotated, it can be flipped,
or it can be translated, and that's the moving it
from one place to the other. So the book of

(06:14):
translation is always I always after I didn't realize this
the first like one hundred times I read The Wheel
of Time, even though I'm like into math and shit,
and so the first time I realized, oh, translation like
moving things.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, I always knew that it was some sort of
interdimensional transportation reference, Like I got that from the first,
But I didn't learn about translation as like a mathy
concept until I took mineralogy, because in that you have
to understand how crystals can exist in three dimensions and

(06:49):
build in various dimensions, and how that makes different macroscale
crystal shapes and stuff. And then I had to learn
about translation and do a bunch of basically puzzle games
to try to learn how the different rotation or mirroring
or translating works. And I was not very good at it.
Translation in particular really bound my brain up hard, and

(07:11):
I didn't do super well in that unit, but most
people did not do well in that unit. And then
we all just moved on to hand sample identification and
that was the bulk of the class. But the first
month was just us all really breaking our brains on
trying to intuitively understand that so that way we could
understand crystal growth and other things to do with how

(07:33):
rocks form.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
No, and I mean, linear algebra and all that kind
of stuff has a lot of translation in it when
you're getting into like you're translating vectors and doing stuff
like that. So anyone who's into physics and math, which
Robert Jordan clearly was, would understand the word translation to
mean a movement from one place to another, not necessarily
a translation of languages. I mean, I'm sure he understood

(07:55):
both concepts. The man's not stupid.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
No, he didn't understand how words. That's why he wrote
a million word book series.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
So yeah, I'm just gonna do this in my best
loyal voice. It soon became obvious, even within the Steedding,
that the pattern was growing frail. The sky darkened, Our
dead appeared standing in the rings, outside the borders of
the steedding, looking in most troublingly. Trees fell ill, and

(08:28):
no song would heal them. It was in this time
of sorrows that I stepped up to the great stump.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
At first I was.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
Forbidden, but my mother Corvrille demanded that I have my chance.
I do not know what smrked her change of heart,
as she herself had argued quite decisively for the opposing side.
My hands shook. I would be the last speaker, and
most seemed to have already made up the minds to

(08:59):
open than the book of translation. They considered me an afterthought,
and I knew that unless I spoke, true humanity would
be left alone to face the shadow. In that moment,
my nervousness fled. I felt only a stillness, a calm
sense of purpose. I opened my mouth and I began

(09:23):
to speak from the dragon reborn by Loyal, son of Arn't,
son of holland a stetting shang Tai.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Did you like it? Just listen to the audiobook of
this recently, because I swear that was like a pitch
perfect Michael Kramer impression.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
I just went to Watkhon and listened to Michael Kramer
in person do a bunch of readings.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
So yeah, it shows because I swear that was the
same padence and emphasis as he does in the audiobook.
Like I could predict where you were going to do different,
Like like I knew how that was going to come
out because I've heard that.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
I mean, it's my best Michael Grahamer doing Loyal impression
that I've got, right.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
I think that might be the best one you've ever done. Frankly,
and a good clean read too, thank you.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
Yeah, Well, one little stumble there in the beginning. I
find doing voices so much easier than reading in my
normal voice, like doing a fane, doing a mad voice,
doing a Loyal Like there's something about it that slows
me down and makes me actually pronounce the words. When
I'm trying to read my own voice, it's very very
difficult for me.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
You just want to rush through it and get it
over with.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
Yeah, totally. One hundred percent fascin it. You have to
put on a narrator voice right to do the narration,
and that's a whole different thing. I don't have a
good narrator.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Voice yet, but you could workshop your way into that
and have it not feel like your own voice in
the same way. You could put the work in to
build that mental architecture. Not that you have to, but
you could.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
No, maybe someday, you know, when I eventually start doing
audiobooks for money, because II is not going to take
that away from us any time soon.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Well, it's not going to take good stuff away from us.
It's just going to really clutter the field with shit.
Eventually people will realize that artisanal is the only way
to do it, but that is going to take a while.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
And let's be honest, if we really want to get
good at narrating audiobooks, we've got to start with the smut.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, that is how the pyramid is shaped.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
It's ok reading did Yeah?

Speaker 2 (11:26):
No, I've heard that from multiple sources that there's a
lot of it and very few people willing to do it.
So if you want to get a nice, fat resume,
you have no lack of choices of stuff to do
that no one.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
Else is doing, and paid practice really and paid.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, like the romance authors are. Yeah they want audio books. Yeah,
they they want audio books, but no one wants to
do smut.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
And and they write it so fast it's hard to
keep up with the production, I think as well.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
Truly, truly, I knew nothing really about publishing it all
until I met Brie. And Brie is a self published
romance author with like twenty years of experience, And I
learned so much about the romance writing world. And yet
the pace that they put out at apparently they're running
circles around every.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Other genre, genre.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
Genre genre either way. I have heard it so.

Speaker 3 (12:19):
Many Okay, I did not know that was an alternative
way to say it.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
That's how my dad says it's music of ficionado's so.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
Sure, yeah, no, that's that's new to me. But I
can totally understand that that's another way to pronounce it.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
I've literally seen it spelled both ways.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Really very yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Wow, Okay, I mean I'm also a terrible speller, so
I might have just been misreading it.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
I probably assumed they were all misspellings.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, but I mean that what I'm what I'm saying
is that there could be an iterative process where the
error is creeping in and propagating, and and I'm not
a good filter for these things. I just pass things long.
I don't critically think about the words I'm saying. The
fuck were we talking about.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
The introduction and the things of interest inside of it?

Speaker 2 (13:11):
That's not what we were talking about. But let's return
to that, because we're.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
Supposed to be supposed to be talking about.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
So, yeah, a couple of things to un look into here,
the dead standing, the ogear, dead standing in rings. I
remember us being ninety nine percent sure that that's something
that happened. Here we go, here we go, this is
this is where that happened. It's not in the books proper.
It's in this opening opening section of a book, but
you know there it is. I think that what sparked

(13:39):
Coviral's change of heart was the part where right as
she was thinking that Loyle had made a good point,
there was a massive trollic attack on the manor house
that they were staying. And I think that's what changed
Corel's mind.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
I also don't forget Corverl thinks they should stay. She's
arguing the opposite well, because you know, she doesn't, she's
not arguing what she believes, and she's like, actually, I
was going to.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Ask you if that was what was actually happening, because
I recalled that from from somewhere that like, yeah, she
thought that. Maybe she even says that to him later,
but apparently it doesn't make it into his memoir if
she did.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
I think what sparked her change of heart was what
we saw earlier, which was him giving that passion speech
and her being like not bad, not bad, you.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Know, like right, and then there's a trilloc attack to
put a bow on that cake, Like yeah, I'm pretty
sure that, like your delivery on the precipice of a
trillic attack was what convinced her. And also, yeah, the
idea that she was arguing against it to prove the
point that it needed to be done, which is very
O gear logic in my mind, that's even worse than
ideal humor. That's O gear logic.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
And also how badass right, like they were going to leave,
and Loyal himself probably alone, brought the O gear back
into the battle the last battle.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
I mean, in many ways, right, what Coviral did was
what rand had aguayin do right, Coviriel united everyone who
was in in opposition and then serve them up in
one neat package to a good argument to change their minds.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
I could see that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Again, oh gear logic.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yeah, but you know the loyal will never take credit.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Absolutely not. And that's part of what you know his
proud mother will be doing behind the scenes, is making
sure that he gets the credit whether or not he
wants it, and hopefully his wife will do the same.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
And that brings us into the actual prologue of the book.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Proper, which does not start with the paragraph because we
are not at chapter one. We are at the prologue.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
The only book that actually starts with the paragraph as
Fires of Heaven, because there's no prologue, even though chapter
one is a prologue.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Of the prologue.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Yeah, it should have been named prologue.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
But the paragraph at the front, and they thought that
that would trick us.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
But now we know a prologue when we see it.
Fires of Heaven. Yeah, not following the pattern. We know
what you're doing, or think you know what you're doing.
Just read us in really quick.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Oh yeah, it's a good reading. This is this is
brooding and cinematic and.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
Lovely prologue distinctions. And we have the snake in the
wheel because there's just a lot of wheel of timey
things going on in this prologue. I guess it's not
picking out any particular character or item.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
I mean, we've got good guys, bad guys, people who've
been around since book one, people who will only exist
for one POV. Like, it's a really wide spread of
characters here.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
Do you know where the distinctions comes in.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yes, it's when he's thinking about how he's not going
to take anyone who can't ride with him. Ah, and
he's like, I'm doing an eye to die. But he's like,
it's a petty distinction. But if I said I can
do it, then I can do it too. And then
you know that doesn't.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Work keeping to the letter of his word, right, But
then of course he keeps to the spirit of it
because he's Land not nice.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
And I exactly, exactly he's better than I is to die.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Mannarb's hooves beat a familiar rhythm on broken ground as
Land Mandragrin rode towards his death. The dry air made
his throat rough, and the earth was sprinkled with white
crystals of salt that precipitated from below. Distant red rock
formations loomed to the north, where sickness stained them light marks,

(17:27):
a creeping dark lichen. It's really yeah, that's how you
spelled lichen. It's not lichen.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
You know the stuff that grows on trees and rocks.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's not lichen.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
No, it's lichen. See, we can both be bad.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
I've only ever read that word.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
Ah, there you go.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
Then mosses and lichens aren't lichens. Werewolves?

Speaker 2 (17:50):
No, those are like like a knit. What's the you're
it's close. It's something similar for.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
Freaking wear wolf like l ycn was supposed to likeen thrope.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, yeah, there we go, Thank you, mom. Jeans.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
So, I think that's whenever someone says liking I think
werewolf and so lichen is that makes a.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
Lot of sense based on the spelling. Yeah yeah, well
today you and definitely someone in the audience lanned.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
I hope. So he continued riding east parallel to the blight.
This was still Saldea, where his wife had deposited him,
only narrowly keeping her promise to take him to the borderlands.
It had stretched before him for a long time. This road.
He turned away from it twenty years ago, agreeing to
follow Morain, But he'd always known he would return. This

(18:44):
was what it meant to bear the name of his father's,
the sword on his hip and the Hedori on his head.
This rocky section of northern Saldea was known as the
Prosca Flats. It was a grim place to ride. Not
a plant grew on it. The wind blew from the north,
carrying with it a foul stench like that of a deep,
sweltering mire, bloated with corpses. The sky of her head

(19:07):
stormed dark, brooding. That woman, Land thought, shaking his head,
how quickly Ninive had learned to talk and think like
an isid eye. Riding to his death didn't pain him,
but knowing she feared for him, that did hurt very badly.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
So brooding, so cinematic. It's a great opening shot.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
But this is we haven't seen Land since Ninive put
him through the doorway, right like, this is him brooding
and riding and riding and brooding. You know, he's crossed
most of Saldeya.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
But that's a big country.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
It's a huge country, and so he's spending this whole
time being like I can't believe she got me on
a technicality that she says, you take me to the borderlands,
and I wanted I was saying the Pass, Jingai Pass,
and she kept saying border lands, and we thought we
were talking about the same place because Jeni Path is
in the borderlands. But she used a distinction between the
two of them to quote the title of the chapter

(20:05):
to say to send me somewhere else.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, like a fifteen hundred mile distinction.

Speaker 3 (20:10):
It's like I want to go to Nova Scotia. I'll
take you to the Canadian border. Okay, great, to Nova
Scotia Canadian border. Yeah, sure, ends up in Vancouver.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
What the fuck right, it's the border. But yeah, he
is writing this whole long the whole long time we
haven't seen him. Part of the reason we haven't seen
him is because he hasn't been seeing anyone else, and
so there's been nothing interesting for the camera to focus
on because he's literally just brooding by himself for like weeks.
I think he's been traveling.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Oh god, I'd have to look at the timeline because like,
don't forget the entire last book basically didn't happen in this.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Timeline, right, we're jumping back.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, Towers of Midnight starts at the same time a
gathering storm does for all intents and purposes, or at
least happening in parallel.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, right, give or take. But yeah, But for however
long he's been doing this, he has not seen anyone.
He has avoided seeing anyone. He has stayed away from people.
He's been very rural, very cross country.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
Assuming he's had to fight a few things that have
come out of the blight, right, one.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Assumes he's had one or two interesting witcher like encounters,
you know.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
So as he's riding along, you know, he hears gravel falling,
which is the you know, universal indication, cinematic indication, because
Sanderson watches movies.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
He just writes for the camera.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah. I was watching A River Wild last night, which
is in nineteen ninety four Kevin Bacon movie where Kevin
Bacon is the bad guy hunting people on a river
and this one guy climbing, you know, doing that thing
where he's climbing the rocks on the side of the
river trying to hide, and there's the gravel falling down
that gets his attention. So I'm like, I definitely saw
this in a movie last night.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
I know exactly what fully snip they used to make the.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
Exactly And of course that ends up being Bulein.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, who is with Land right up until most of
the way through the last battle. He doesn't die until
pretty close to the end.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
And he's a character introduced in New Spring.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yes, he is there. Yeah, and there's even a reference
to that here.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
So he's a serving boy and he's like, oh, I
wish i'd served you better, and I can't. I don't
remember the exact circumstances, but I think Land like sends
him to fetch something. Here we go. Yeah, when Lane
arrives in a a steishar, thank you I supposed to,
shouldn't it be ice?

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
Bulen's his errand boy. Bulen's there when Moraine calls on him,
and it looks like when he gets betrayed, Bulen stays
loyal to him. So he's in three chapters in New Spring.
He's not in a lot of it.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
He doesn't have any agency, but he blames himself for
not saving the world because that's.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
Exactly exactly like, Yeah, he's like I should have done
something to fix the dark friend stuff that you were
dealing with back then, Land, and Land's like, you're a
servant boy.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
A literal child, a child.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
And I was a man. Although I do really like
the uncertainty that Land has in New Spring, he's not
as certain of a man as he is in these books.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
He's a much more freshly minted man. In New Spring.
There's twenty years of experience between that man and this guy.
And that's what Bli Bilan's like. I was, you know,
thirteen or so when I saw you last. Now I'm
you know, thirty three, ready to go to war. But
also like kind of need my dad to tell me
I can wear the headori right or my king either way,

(23:39):
because kings are, you know, essentially father of the nation.
Is kind of how that shakes out.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
So got what is it? God? King, country, their God
king family? I think is the order you're supposed to
care about the authority?

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Right?

Speaker 2 (23:57):
But yeah, there's it's called the Great Chain of Being,
and yeah, I believe it goes God and then king
and then country. I don't care. All I know is
that a lot of men got angry when people started
questioning the Great chain of being and now the world
has a lot more people in it being themselves.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Look, because the Marion isn't always the head of the family. Geez,
interesting that Bulan calls Ninive l Ninive.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
It's some kind of honorific. I'm assuming it means like royal, right,
like because all was king right some contexts, so l
could be a variation.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
On that, but I would think we would be on our
last name, not her first name.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Well again maybe, and that's why maybe it's more of
an honorific than a legal signifier. It's just like most
exalted Queen Ninive or something.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
Sort of like miss Ninive.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Right, but like with extra sprinkles totally, it's the awesome
with awesome sauce.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
Just something I've never noticed before on the first name.
So it's just like, oh, that's that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
And I don't think they ever do it anywhere else ever,
But it has the feeling of an honorific, like she rules, dude,
you have to have your kingdom back just you can
have a queen like that.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
This is the only place in this book that it's used.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
I wonder if it was supposed to be all ni
nive and someone.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
Just up because you got all land men dragon. Well
l could be for the female version of it, right.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
Oh, that's probably what it is. If it's all land
for men, then it would be l ni neive for women.
Because nothing cannot be gendered. If you can gender it,
gender it like, that's the world we live in. Find
more things to randomly gender for no fucking reason.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
The English language actually does a much better job of
that than most other languages, like French. Everything like why
is a donut female or male? You know, well, that's
a bad example, but.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
It's a good example. We don't. It's food, right, it's food.
I don't care what your fucking perviass imagination. We don't
all need You don't need to make that all of
our problem.

Speaker 3 (25:57):
You know. My favorite thing is when I learn afrodijiacs
are in entirely I thought of that way because of
their shape. Like, if you look at every afrodisiac, it
either is shaped like a penis or shaped like a vagina,
and it has nothing to deal with the effect whatsoever.
It's entirely like, oh what gets in the mood dick
shaped food? Oh so yeah, Land thinks, Hey, I promise

(26:19):
to take anyone who's riding and he's on foot, so
I don't have to take him if I don't want to.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
A petty distinction.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Basically throws a little mental Yeah, a petty distinction, but
he throws a little fit in his head, and then
he tells him to go away, and as he's walking away,
Bulan's like, can I wear Thedori please? I need someone
to tell me it's okay, And that Land takes pity
on hims, like fine, ride with me if you're if
you're that loyal.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah, well, especially because it's like the whole my parents died,
you know, and the malchurri thing, and like Land shares
that pain. It is just it's a whole. It's a whole.
Bulan's just like, what if I just take all your
heart strings and twists them like I made the light.
I was nice, I made the latch argument, but you're
forcing me to go for the big guns.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
Also, practically there's no supplies. He's like, we talk about
how in the beginning it's just bare rock everywhere, and
then the blight and he's like, yeah, I guess I
do need those supplies, Like I cannot forage when there's
nothing to forage.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Right, like Land has been managing on his own, but
like his luck is gonna run out eventually, He's gonna
have to deal with people at some point. And Belan's like,
I'm not really people, I'm a follower. It's different. So
Lan is unable to ignore his honor and his duty
and he lets Buln have the Hardori and join him.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
Then where that Hedori with pride, Land said, too few
keep to the old ways, and yes you may join me.
Land nudged Mandarb in the motion, Bulan following on foot,
and the one became two. I like that the two
becomes four.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, I love following that progression throughout the book. And
then like it's like the five had become a dozen,
the dozen had become handfuls, handfuls become thousands. Like it
just escalates in this beautiful, crescendoing kind of way.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
It's great and just the I think there's something about
a crowd coming together to support somebody's personal mission that's
really sweet. Rewatching Buffy and one of my favorite episodes
is the one where the high school kids come together
to give her like a little award to thank you know,
like to be the school protector. At the end, of

(28:31):
high school to be like you saved all of our
lives and that this is a very emotional moment. And
this feels similar to me, like this group of the
Malkie are coming together to support the king who's sacrificed
his life and then you know, giving up what they
had to really support his cause and be like, no,
this is the remnant of the nation that we belong to,
and this is where we belong as much as you do.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Right, And then all the other Borderlanders coming together to
be like, yeah, you fucking belong there, and it's just
this whole auditorium full of people cheering, and it's great.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
I also find it interesting most of the Malkire are
half Malkiyary.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah. Yeah, because the loss of the nation was pretty total.
Very few people got out, so.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
It's most of the people who are Malcire are like, oh, yeah,
my dad left Malkire and married my mom and then
died and then they had me, and like, my father
was Malcire, but I wasn't really raised. A lot of
them were raised in the tradition, which is why I
think here he's like too few keep to the old
ways because you have a lot of half bloods if
you want to use that term.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Well, I think it was because a lot of the
people that got out were children, right, There was a
few adults taking out, just boatloads of children. I mean
not literal boatloads because they're a landlocked nation, but you
know what I mean. And so a lot of Malchierre
grew up with the memory of what they had lost,
and but were you know, orphaned essentially and had to
grow up in other nations and thus marry other people

(29:51):
and like lose a lot of that because you know,
it's locked behind trauma. And also you never went through
a manhood ceremony because you were six when they bundled you,
because you'd gone through a manhood ceremony would have been
part of the last defense. So it's a whole like
broken cycle of stuff. So yeah, most of the mercury
that you see now are people who their grandparents were
the people who actually knew everything, and their parents have

(30:12):
just these tattered remnants and then they went and inevitably
managed to orphan their own children because cycles of trauma
have to be repeated. So yeah, it's it's really fluttering.
It's a guttering candle, right, there is so little left
and that is why you need the absolute bonfire that
is Ninaive to come in and help them come back together.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
And bring together as scattered people too. Is like, yes, individually,
there's not a lot of them, but like if you
bring them all together, it's it's a decent amount.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Uh Yeah, especially yeah, when you bring in the extended
family that they have married into. And yeah, there's a
lot of people who believe in the nation as proper
malchiury should It's just you need to get them aware
of each other and all gathered into the same place.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
And I think with that we can switch over to Paren.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, Paren having a very dreamy sequence.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
There's some interesting stuff going on here.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
So I do.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
You think Landfear is interfering at all in this sequence?

Speaker 2 (31:26):
I was wondering so many times throughout that throughout this
whole section, if any Forsaken are screwing around on the edges,
particularly Landfair, because this feels so unique, This whole sequence
feels so unique.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Like, yeah, I was trying to come up with a
theorist why because he's having a normal dream in tele
irun Riod and there's a few things about it that
make it feel not very tele Iran Riod to.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Me, Well, he says he's dreaming, but not in the
Wolf dream, so it's like a real dream.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
But it's not his dream. I guess maybe that's what's
going on, is that he's just lucid dreaming, and so
like there's some incongruities here because he does have just
like a total dream going on. But then you've got
the whole thing with like paren being a prophecy dreamer, right,
some of the times his dreams come true because he's
in the wolf dream.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
Right, and the Copper's there, And I don't think Hopper's
prone to digging his way into people's personal dreams, right,
So yeah, maybe like Satana's is saying, it's like a
dream shard, like maybe he's making like a proto dream
shard bubble or something just because of his natural talents.
And like if he was more skilled, he could actually
like break that off and make it into like a
full blown shard that he could bring people in and

(32:37):
out of consciously. But I don't know, it's it's weird.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
Weird, it's a weird Maybe Hoppers making it somehow.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Now I think not, because at the end it looks
like it's turning into a nightmare, and Hopper boots him
before that nightmare can get too severe. So there's definitely
a real nightmare that's generated. And I don't think Hopper
would have little enough control to keep that from happening
if he was in charge.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
Hmm. I wouldn't necessarily agree that that's what's happening at
the end, is that it's becoming I mean, I think
that's certainly an option. But there's laughter in the distance.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Like there's hand like it gets all creepy, and then
there's laughter, and then Hopper boots him. So I'm just like,
Hopper didn't make that. Hopper is aware of the larger context.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
Right, But who's laughing? That's my question. I feel like
somebody's controlling the dream and that's and the person we
know who's fucking with Paren in the dream is Sindane
slash land fear Right.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
We don't know when she starts. When she starts doing
it on the page, she makes a few comments that
make it seem like she's been doing this for a
bit already.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
And it's very difficult because Paren is a very unreliable
narrator in that section, and so his motivations make sense.
I mean it took me. Honestly, I did not catch
the first time that she was compelling him until the
very end. I was like, Oh, that explains all the
crazy things he's been doing. But I was like, why
is he working with land Fear? Right? That seems like

(34:01):
a terrible in the same way that like, why is
Morain working a little Lanfear in the show?

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Right?

Speaker 3 (34:06):
It just never made a lot of sense to me.
But I was like, fine, if this is the direction
they're going, I'll accept it. But I never really thought
of Moraine being compelled right right. I just thought she
was doing it for her own reasons, and so I
was kind of thinking the same thing with parent. I
was like, well, he's just doing this for his own
reasons at first, but then later you're like, oh, no,
he's being compelled.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
But no, we do know that Landfeir is super super
skilled in the dream and that the dream is like
the space that she considers her domain, et cetera, et cetera.
So I could totally see the reason why he's like
it's the Wolf dream but not the Wolf dream and
being in a space that Hopper can reach it. Yeah,
maybe she found him in the actual wolf dream and
sort of just like scooched him off to the side

(34:44):
and pulled him into a corner that she could manipulate,
because the laughter at the end doesn't feel like it's
coming from inside his head. That feels like an emergent
property of the world around him, with the creepy curly
hands and Hopper hitting him so that he leaves, you know.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
And for me, the fact that so many events don't
line up with reality, right, like, why is this dream
if he was reliving the events, If he was dreaming
about it, I think you would relive the events as
they happened. And his inability to like the weird like
having the acts instead of the hammer. Why because land
Feir wants them to be more violent, right right?

Speaker 2 (35:18):
I like the idea that Landfeir is just trying to
manipulate at the edges, so that way, when she decides
to make her move more seriously later, she's already got
groundwork laid or sindane if you insist.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
If you want to insist, she calls herself land Fear.
She doesn't really think of herself as sindane. She doesn't
accept the stipulations the dark Ones put on her because
she's working for her own team. She's not part of
the Dark Ones.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
She's still Team land Fear. Even if she's been named Sindane,
She's still Team.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Land Fair exactly, still Team Landfeer, because she makes herself
look like land Fear in the dream, Like she clearly
still thinks of her as that person, not as this
new whereas like Baltamel, rangar Alima, whatever you want to
call her, is embrace the transmission and doesn't even think
of themselves as Mouthamel at all. Right, They're like, oh,

(36:06):
I'm I'm R and R one.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, fully committed to the bit, to the point where
their own memories feel incongruous because of the present picture
of self.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
He's like, it's weird. I can barely even imagine having
a dick, Like I picture myself having sex without a dick,
but I clearly had to dick in those memories, so
like it's very difficult. He says that he's like, very
difficult to imagine my body because I have body dysmorphia, right,
because I think of myself as having a female body. Now.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, and that is the quote unquote punishment from the
Dark One, because that's the most inventive the dark one
could be.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
Okay anyway, So parents having this dream where he's forging,
I would say an army, yes, his followers, however you
want to say it. And like he starts with two
misshapen lumps. One of those ends up being aerom for sure.
What was the other one?

Speaker 2 (37:04):
One of those two rivers? Guys, I'm forgetting the name
I was.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
I was trying to do some connections because he he
pounds two nuggets and then a hinge, and I kind
of wanted the nuggets to be you know, by yeal
and bare lane and him to be the hinge.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah. No, he pulls out just a series of two
rivers fighters. That's what it is. In the way of dreams.
The volume of metal put in does not correspond to
the volume of metal taken out. No, totally, totally, but yeah,
I agree seeing the Barreley and Fayel thing allegoric they
represented would have been cool, especially if he'd been trying
to make a hinge at the same time. That would
have been neat. Maybe two on the nose, but would

(37:41):
have been neat.

Speaker 3 (37:42):
Because here here we've got the first just going through
the pieces paren pound it into a misshaped nugget, perhaps
the size of two fists. He sets that aside. He
grabbed the lump of iron thrusting at the handble so,
and then he makes something else that's another shoddy piece.
He set it aside. That's a misshapen flatten lane about
as long as his forearm. Oh. I feel like he's

(38:03):
making his axe and doesn't know it, mollinare, and he's
not ready yet, oh.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Because I mean he keeps thinking about understanding the pieces.
And I do think making a magic weapon, you do
really need to understand the pieces before you make a
magic weapon.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
So a bar and then the first pieces could be
the head of the axe, and the bar could be
the handle.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
I hadn't thought of that, but I really like that
that he's building the pieces of his army, which are
also the pieces of the hammer that he's going to forge.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
And then here the parents set the final bar aside
without working on it. It cool, taking on the shape
of a thin rectangle, not unlike the beginnings of a hinge.
So those are the three pieces, right, the lump, the handle,
and some hinge connecting them right, And I can't really
I'm not sure what that's supposed to be other than
when he makes the hammer. He makes the head, the handle,

(38:56):
and then something to merge them together, right, he makes
the piece in between that joins them. So I feel
like that's as close as I can come to having
a parallel here.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Oh, I like it. I like it because it's also
clearly him hammering together the many, many, many many disparate
pieces of followers that turn into his army. So the
number both matters and doesn't matter, right. The point just
is that he's working on it, and he's not ready
for the final form yet.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
And then just a couple of things about the dream
that looks like it's being influenced from the outside. He
sort of goes into this mode where he is old parent,
young parent. Right, Master Lulan would be ashamed to see
such shoddy work. Parent. He discover what he was making
soon before his master returned. No, that was wrong. The
dream shook and the walls grew misty.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Uhhh, that feels like manipulation. It has to be him
pushing back against manipulation.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
Exactly, So he's being trapped in this vision. And then
he comes back to himself and goes, that's not right,
and then everything kind of shakes a little bit because
he's fighting against the dream. And then here's another quote,
Parent's asking, can I run so far? The wolves can't
hear me? And parent and Hopper's confused. Being cut off
was not a thing Hopper could conceive. Parent's mind grew fuzzy.

(40:11):
Why'd he stopped foraging? He had to finish Master Luhan
would be disappointed, right that track, Yeah, like get back
to doing what you were doing, and that just it
feels like parents shouldn't be able to be manipulated like
that in the dream world without someone actively influencing him externally.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Right, his subconscious would not be doing that. That has
to be someone with power and skill pushing on his mind.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
Which to me says land fear, which to me says
all this vision is her trying to influence him and
make him feel worse about what happened and somehow make
his his nightmares come true.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
But she's doing it through the medium of telerenriod, which
means that Hopper can get in there and act like
a firewall or an anti virus and just kind of
be hanging out like you got to deal with me too.
You can't push me out because I'm a wolf and
that's different, and you don't mess with wolves.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
Because I remember, going back to the first book, Lorraine says,
you know you need protection from your dreams and parents,
like I've already found mine, And it's because Hopper is
sitting in his dreams protecting him from at that point
in shaw Mael, but this feels similar.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, and land Fear apparently has never decided to deal
with wolves. She despite being a dream master, she's clearly
very anthropocentric and just doesn't care about the presence of
wolves in the dream and does not have any particular
need or desire to keep them out. So Hopper's able
to be there providing a little bit of a reality
check to parent, though of course, his reality check is

(41:39):
quit messing around with forging entirely and just vibe bro
and Paren goes through this whole long thought about the
wolves and losing himself to the wolf inside him and
blah blah blah, blah blah, and then he says the
exact key, he didn't want to be a wolf. He
wanted to be a man. That's all that the revelation

(41:59):
is is understanding that your desire will find the balance
that it needs to find. Like you need to stop
micromanaging this your natural You know what you want. You
are not confused about wanting to be a wolf. You
know you don't want to be a wolf, which means
you won't become one. It's literally you carried the shoes
across oz with you the whole time, sort of like,

(42:22):
it's right here, it's right here. I don't want to
hear any more whining about this parent. I don't want
another book and a half of you whining about how
you're gonna lose yourself.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
To the wolf.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
You won't because you don't want to. You know that
already right here.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
And that violence that you're afraid of isn't the wolf.
That's the human inside of you.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
It's not the boy exactly exactly. You're blaming everything on
the wolves, and it's so obvious here in the prologue.
You have all the thoughts laid out on the table,
and you're just unwilling to see the pattern they make.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
There's a little bit here about Aaron. So then so
after he sort of forages his three ugly things, all
of a sudden the barrel starts bubbling and he starts
pulling out multipleurines, right, And that's the first one's Arm.
So obviously there's some like you have forged the people
under you, you have created them. And one of the
creations was Aarm, which did not go well.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Yeah, his first really intense follower. He's had lots of
followers since. But Aaron kind of marks I mean Fayel
were Gaul, right, but Aarm is the first of the
army and it's really like Westlands later book sense and yeah,
it did not go well. Paren mishandled Aram very definitely.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
So then we get sort of a retelling of Malden
from a different POV. Again, I think this might be
Landfeer's POV.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
It's altered, it's tweaked. It points at a different version
of Paren than the one we know went through it.

Speaker 3 (43:44):
This is a much more violent, much more murder happy parent,
even though the results are the same. The parent who
goes in there with the axe is one. So, oh, okay,
mirror world. We know Landfear has access to mirror worlds,
and is there a mirror world where instead of Paren
putting his axe into the tree after chopping off the

(44:06):
Iel's hands, he uses it to fight And this is
a version of that, right, This is a version where
the version where Paren, instead of putting his axe in
the tree, has the axe and fights. You know, aarm
doesn't get killed. Paren kills him because we have because
he's a cold blooded murderer. He's no longer given up
the violence of the axe. He's actually decided that he's

(44:30):
the kind of person who would just kill aarm instead
of letting him get shot by arrows.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
I like that again. I like that because it is
so close, right, Like it was such a pivotal decision
and this is so close to what happened that it's like, yeah,
this is a mirror world where Parent's just a little
bit more over the edge than he is now because
he was still a murder happy, violence ridden madman when

(44:54):
he went through Malden. It's not like he was a
zen monk going through that. But the subtle difference of
the ax versus the hammer is a big part of
his wolf human balance, right like the axe versus hammer is.
So it's one of those small decisions that has all
all the propagations. But I love the idea that this
is inspired by a mirror world.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
But then you got Hopper saying a horn of a hoof,
a horn or a hoof young bowl doesn't matter which
one you use to hunt. So it's like the wolf
doesn't see the difference between the axe and the hammer,
but paren does.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Because it's a human problem. It's the human violence. Like
it's the axe versus the hammer is a thing he's
able to use to help understand the human versus wolf thing.
It's an analogy, but it's actually about the human side.
It's always been about the human side because wolves do
not go to war, right, they hunt.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
They don't understand.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
Yeah, and if you're hunting for food, it doesn't matter
what weapon you use. The point is that you get food, right,
It only matters how you kill people. If you are
a professional killer. If you are doing war things, then
it matters how you do it.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
It's not the last battle, it's the last hunt.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
Right, right, right, exactly exactly. So if a human is
doing violence, it's just on a whole other intellectual plane
than where wolves are even processing information. If a wolf
wanted to like hurt other wolves directly, it would probably
be considered aberrant, you know.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
And then so Parent turns to this is another thing
that makes me think that somebody's controlling this. Parents turns
to Hopper and says, why are you making me dream?
This making you this is not my dream, young bull, right,
this is your dream. But parent feels like somebody's making
him dream it.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Retin Hopper's like, bro, literally, it's not me. If I
was making you dream, it wouldn't be this shit, right, right,
And they have a great exchange at the end where
parents thinking like, well, Figurine is like, this wouldn't be forged,
they would be cast So like, what does that mean?
And Hopper, in the most delightful wolf fashion, is like,

(46:52):
it means there are many little men on the floor,
none of which you can eat, Like, this is the reality,
decreed it.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
And so then in that moment, this is where you
think the dream kind of turns to a nightmare.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Right.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
He's gotted all the little pieces around him, and then
around them lay the broken shards of aerum. Those pieces
seem to be growing larger. The shattered hands began working,
clawing on the ground. The shards all became little hands,
climbing towards Parent, reaching for him. Parent gasped, leaping to
his feet. Here laughter in the distance, ringing closer, shaking

(47:27):
the building, Hopper jumps, slimming into him, and then parent
started awake.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Yeah, I think that land Fear is frustrated with how
he's not taking the conditioning she's handing him, so she
just decides to reach for the nightmare thread to punish
him for not being a cooperative patient.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
I think that's somebody else changed again, changing the dream
around him. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
The laughter, Yeah, I mean that feels like someone just
deciding to like and then I put spiders.

Speaker 3 (47:52):
In the kit right, which is very land Fair, very I.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Mean more Moogeti in but you know, yeah, yeah, and
then he wakes up and immediately thinks about a bubble
of evil that it attacks the camp like immediately, like
it feels so externally imposed that whole dream sequence except
for the Hopper part. Hopper was obviously Hopper.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
So we wake up and we get a little backstory,
which I think this backstory is really important because it's
so easy to miss, but it explains a lot of
what's been going on with Paren since Malden and why
he hasn't just gone back into the fray because it's
been like where is Paren? And part of it is
not a lot of times past because we're jumping back
in time. But the other part is they hit that
bubble of evil with the angry red oily serpents that

(48:36):
bit them all, and it seems like you've got that
moment where bubbles of evil aren't as easy to heal
away as other afflictions because they are breaking the pattern,
so they're not really able to fully heal the sickness
these red snakes. In part, however, I do think this
is one of the weakest delaying tactics that Sanderson employs.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
And he uses it heated, like yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah, this idea that he's that, oh, we can't travel
by gateway because Isaidae and Ashaman have been bitten and
weakened and spend all their energy healing, and it's like
it feels like it should be severan except it's working against.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Him right right.

Speaker 3 (49:18):
It feels a little like, of course, you could argue
that he needs to have resolution with the White Cloaks
and so all everything that needs to happen had to
happen so that he could resolve his issues with the
White Cloaks and the shan Chan, except that it doesn't
really apply to the last battle, which is frustrating to me. Right,
like if his army was more important and his like

(49:39):
paren bringing this unified army, which unified the Sean Chan
and the White Cloaks and all of these other groups
that came together to save the day at the last minute.
I would see that as being more productive and more
tevere and driven.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
Yeah, I do feel like this was specifically a delaying
tactic to allow the timelines to work so that he
could would have that White Cloak resolution so that they
could be a significant part of the last battle. And
they just didn't stick the landing on that, and I
it would have been easier to swallow this if that
alliance had actually meant something really monumental for the last battle,

(50:15):
it would have been easier to say, yeah, they had
to put in a delaying tactic because the timelines were
so desynchronized, Like, eh, okay, but it needs to have
payoff in order for me to forgive how low fidelity
this fix.

Speaker 3 (50:27):
Is because there aren't any consequences other than delaying them. Right,
nobody dies, nobody's really hurt. It's just this like it's
just oh yeah, bubble of Evil delays less. It's just delay, and.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
That doesn't happen to like basically any other plot that
they just continually get roadblocked by bubbles of evil. That's
not really a mechanism except for Parent, And then it
happens like four times to him, So it's a little annoying.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
Does it happen more than once or does he just
keep referring to this one bubble of evil over and
over again.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
I think it happens twice. I believe that the one
where all of the weapons come alive and Fayel and
Barrelane have to fight off their daggers together and kind
of become almost friends through the trauma bonding. I making
sure that that one also delays the trial. So I
think actually it happens twice. I think four is maybe
a bit of exaggeration.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
They do three days delay on that one, Yeah, which
is very similar to a previous weapons come alive that
we've seen, right, Well, that was more blankets before we've
seen blankets and sheets and stuff come alive and all
inanimate objects that was in the tower.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Yeah, that was the all the textiles, that was the
textiles bubbles of evil.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Yeah, so the weapons is and didn't we and we've
seen weapons come to life. Remember when the axe attacked
Parent and he put it in the door, but that
was more that was his specific bubble of evil. Right,
that was when the three boys each got their own.
So that was just the axe.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Yeah, because that was early days, a bubble couldn't affect
every axe in the entire Stone of Tear, like the
dark one didn't have that kind of oomph.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
It also could only really affect.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Tavierin right, right, exactly exactly. But now it's big enough
to in a camp, so that's going to happen. But yeah,
this one with the red oily snakes that bite everyone
and then go away, it was just like, what a
weird thing to have an off screen at that.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
Let's tack into POV number three. I think we've are
rolling an hour in we can talk about Grendall.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Yeah, let's do the Grandall POV.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
So this is the bail firing of Natrum's barrow from
a different POV.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Really emphasizing that this book is jumping backwards in time,
just in case you weren't quite picking up on that.
Now we're doing a thing where we know exactly what's
going to happen. We are watching it happen because we've
already seen it kind of jumping backwards, and.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
This is a great POV from Grendall.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Oh, it's so good. There's so many little nuggets about
the age of Legends and about the other forsaken. It's Yeah,
there was a lot highlight in this, even though you
know what's coming, seeing it from her perspective really makes
a difference in a lot of vice, plus the reveal
that she lived.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
I do really wish the scene was in the previous
book though.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
Yeah, I needed that to be like the actual epilogue
with her shaking her fist at the sky and then
that's the end of book twelve of the Wheel of Time.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
Because I don't like us having a book break where
we think a character is dead. That to me feels cheap,
and then bringing them back like it does feel a
little bit like a retcon because it's in a different book.
I think it was in the same book. I would
accept it a little bit better, but as it is,
part of me wanted to go really like because there's
a point where she gets the isid eye and Orangar

(53:43):
to do the compulsion, and to me, that's very out
of character, and it feels like the only reason she
does that is because she doesn't know the bailfire is coming.
If she knew the bailfire was coming, that would be
one thing, But it feels like she just gets lucky
in a way that is reserved for Tiver and yeah, yeah,
and feels very just like, ah, twist, you didn't expect that,

(54:06):
you know, I didn't expect that because she would never
act like that.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Yeah. It is really weird how the queen of compulsion
is like, hey, dumb ass, why not you do the compulsion?

Speaker 3 (54:14):
Like?

Speaker 2 (54:14):
What in what world does she hand that responsibility off?

Speaker 3 (54:18):
Never? Never?

Speaker 2 (54:19):
She can't even see r and Gar's weaves to make
sure that they are what they say they are.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
And what's hilarious too, is no one even sees ron
Gar's weaves. Nonnieveh only finds the female version of the compulsion.
She never finds the male version of the compulsion. I
don't think she says anything about, oh, there's something else there,
unless I'm misremembering that scene.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
She says there's really heavy compulsion, heavier and more complicated
than I've ever seen, right, but that implies that she's
seeing it.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
So also the fact that it's just another I said, eye,
who's not like I feel like Nnive would notice that
these weed that this compulsion is not as intricate or
good as whatever Grendel is doing.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
But it's really really heavy and complicated, so she doesn't
quite count her own ability to read the complexity of it.
I think I think that's why Grandall says, to make
it so complicated, so that way when Ninie looks at it, Oh,
only Grandall could have which again feels like weird reck
Connie hole plucking.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Exactly exactly right, Like it's kind of like looking at painting.
Or here's another one programming code. Right, you can tell
when different people have written a program because they have
different styles, they have different you know, they call different functions,
they use slightly different syntax. Right, you can compare two
code bases and be like, oh, these were probably written

(55:37):
by the same person, or at least someone who used
the same style. You know. And so I and I
know this, which I saidized this again, I blank on
the name Delana. Delana. That's right. Delanna never was supposed
to be particularly powerful. She was never supposed to be
particularly good at compulsion. This idea that all of a
sudden she's this compulsion master because Grendall has taught her

(55:59):
a few things. I don't like it. I don't like
it at all.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
Yeah, yeah, it feels really don't look too close, just
breeze on.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
By m And I think it could have all been solved.
All of this could have been solved with Grendall being
being cleverer, right, I don't like. I also don't like
that he's nerving Grendall a little bit, like she survived
from dumb luck, not from being clever.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Yeah, very disappointing. Grandal should always be clever.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
Always be clever. I think she should have been, like,
this is clearly a trap. He's clearly sending this person
in to be compelled. I'm going to have somebody else
do the compulsion.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
I don't want to see Grendal having dumb luck. I
want her to be clever always. That's what makes her scary.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
Exactly right, because she's the one who's smarter than the
rest of the four seconds. She's the effective one. She's
the one who can manipulate the other ones. And I
would like to see her manipulating r Andar here into
doing and the Lana into doing it, you know. And
and the fact that, yeahugh, the fact that we only
see the female weave with the compulsion, but then she

(57:01):
makes a big deal about having ro and Guard do
it as well. Yeah, I feel like in the original
draft he just had R and Guard do it, and
someone pointed out that like arn Gar was using sidine
and I need would only detect the sidear one. So
he's like, fuck, I'll have Delne to do it as well,
and but then it's less convincing because she's not a
forsaken right right, And I like, I really do feel
like that was an editing thing that they caught that

(57:21):
this was always R and Guard doing the compulsion until
someone said ninive wouldn't see that because she's using the
male half of the source and he had to like
bring Dalaana in as well.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Completely agree.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
I just feel like it's it's a weak scene. I
like the outcome. I like that, you know, Grendel, it's
a weak scene just because of the dumb luck aspect
of it, as suppose to Grendall being clever.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
But it's got so much good Grendell energy exactly. Yes,
she's got this goblet with the drops of blood like
suspended in the glass, like that is some evil and
ostentatious levels of wealth, Like you didn't need drops of blood,
you could have just had rubies like a normal super villain, Like,

(58:05):
what the hell?

Speaker 3 (58:06):
In a lot of ways, blood's cheaper.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
I mean, yes, but that's just weird.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
You know how much of a cost to get a
pint of rubies? Right, Like, this is.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
True, this is true.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
This is true.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
And she also has this whole section where she's talking
about the climate she's cultivating in the room. She rarely
left a window or door open to the outside, but
today she likes the contrast warmth from one side, a
cool breeze from the other. Life was about feeling touches
on your skin, both passionate and icy, anything other than
the normal, the average, the lukewarm.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
It just that's great, that's randall.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Yeah, that really that's not telling too hard. That is
the kind of thought she would have. It's just like
mm all, I like, is extremes. Never give me the
middle of the road, only the extremes. That's so her.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
But the extremes that balance out to be the middle
of the road. Right, So there's a certain amount of
like she's also a very balanced character, right, She isn't cheat. Yes,
she loves the extremes, but she brains them in. She's
not consumed by the extreme in the same way that
ar and Gar is consumed by his desires and his passion.
She can indulge in them without being consumed by them,

(59:20):
and that's really the difference. And she makes a point
of being like, and I make sure people think I'm
more consumed than I am.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Right, right, right. She hides behind that.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
She's the kind of person who enjoys a drink or
two at the bar and acts like she's wasted because
they're playing poker and right right.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Yeah, and wins right, whereas I'm just like, yeah, I
totally I too, like to sit half in a hot
tub and half in a snowy environment that the hot
tub is embeddeded like, that's that's my idea of balance.
But yes, you're right that that also is her.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
I like being both stoned and drunk. That's the that's
my idea of balance. A. Yes, the spins loves the
wheel of time turns, especially when I'm crossed it turns
around me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Yes, very much so. But yeah, yeah, but yeah, r
and Gar is essentially whining in this scene. But like,
I want to be doing something. I am bored. I
want to stir some ship up and then and then
this great line. This age is exciting. Primitive people can
be so interesting. So Balthamol, so very Balthamol.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
There's some implication that ron Gar's in trouble for losing
control of a guain when she got kidnapped a little
bit in.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
The doghouse as far as the dark one goes.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
And then we get Grendall using the true power.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Yes, because she wants to seduce r and Gar the
most useful forsaken, very much worth your time and energy.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
Well, it's also about showing that she has the power,
I think, because she comes up behind her and touches
her on.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
The cheek with the power.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
And if it was one power, arn Gar would know.
So it's basically saying to arn Gar, I have the
true power, right, I think there's a little bit of stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
I got the uncut powder power.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
You are out of favor. I am in favor, So
you should listen to me, is basically what she's saying
with that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
Yeah, or just be consumed by your really short attention
span and insatiable desires. But yeah, same, same, And.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
So a couple of I think really interesting parts about
that one. She thinks of it a gift for Mordon. No, wait,
the Great Lord. Don't confuse the two, right, this idea
that like.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Uh huh nahbless and the Great Lord and not have
to say that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
That's the same, not the same, but Morden because I
think a lot of ways, because Mordan's not selfish like
the rest of them. He actually is nihilistic in a
way that he only he really understands what the Dark
One wants, which is nihilism, and everyone else is like, oh,
I want a new world to rule over, and it's like,
that's not what the Dark One wants. And so that's
why Morgan's nabless, not because he's better or anything else

(01:02:02):
like that. It's because he understands the Dark One in
the way nobody else does. Because he's insane.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
He's insane, and the Dark One is not what you
would call human. Saying the Dark One is beyond human capacities,
So insane is a way of describing the Dark One.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
And then the description of the True Power, right, A
weave of the True Power would often function in a
slightly different way or have an unanticipated side effect, and
there were some waves that could only be crafted by
the True Power. The Great Lord's essence forced the pattern,
straining it and leaving it scarred. Even something the Creator
had designed to be eternal could be unraveled using the

(01:02:42):
Great Lord's energies. It bespoke an eternal truth, something is
close to being sacred, as Grendal was willing to accept
whatever the Creator could build the Great Lord could destroy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Yeah. I think that is such an important insight into
not just all, but all of the Dark Aligned factions.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
And I think the reason why a lot of them
align themselves with the Dark One is they're like, oh, yeah,
the world exists, but like, I want to align myself
with the person who can destroy it, because if you
can destroy it, you have power over it. Yeah. That
takes me back to the Never Ending Story when Morlocke
when he's like, why are you doing this? And he's like,
because I want to have control over the nothing, because

(01:03:25):
whoever is control over the nothing has the power, and
then nothing in that case very much is an analog
for the Dark One.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Mm hmmmmm. And I'm just over here, like I don't
get this obsession with power that y'all have. I just like,
I just want some snacks and a good book. I
don't this power thing. I really don't get why y'all
are destroying the world for power.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
I don't get it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
For me.

Speaker 3 (01:03:47):
It's because in order to enjoy my snacks in my book,
I need the power to make people leave me alone. Yeah,
And I feel like that's a certain amount of just like,
no matter how powerful you are, you always have to
answer to somebody. And I feel like there's a certain
amount of people who were like I don't want answer
to anybody. In order to get to that level, I
need all the power because answering to anybody is unacceptable, to.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Which I say, tough titties, welcome to being human. Get
over yourselves.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
No rules, rules for thee and not for me. I
want no consequences for any of my actions, and the
more power I have, the less likely I am the
face consequences. So the more power I can gather, the
better off I am. Yeah, fuck you money.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
I dislike a world in which this is a driving factor.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
Oh No, I think that a fuck you money is
almost a bad thing because people shouldn't be able to
tell other people to just fuck off and then throw
money at them, and that would be acceptable.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
You don't think pay to play justice and regulations and
rules and speed limits is a good thing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
Yeah, I'm not a good capitalist. I've said it before,
I'll say it again. I'm a pretty shitty capitalist.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
Yeah, you and me both were very bad shipping capitalism.

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
What do you mean We've built our giant media empire.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Giant raging media empire. So many yachts, so many yachts.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
Oh my god. Oh when you start measuring your wealth
and yachts, it's just it's a different scale.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Yeah, it's a whole of a tax bracket. You're doing
taxes in like lifeboats, you know, just put the difference
like it's a whole thing.

Speaker 3 (01:05:21):
I swear I have almost a point zero zero zero
zero zero one percent of a yacht. Like It's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
God, I don't even want a boat. People aren't meant
to be on bodies of water. Stay on land where
you're supposed to be.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
Water scares me, Like open ocean water with no land
in sight is a terrifying thought for me.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
I think I told somebody I'm too good of a swimmer,
and they're like, wait, but doesn't that mean you're not
scared of drowning. I'm like, yeah, I'm scared of not
drowning for days and day and days and being there
just just a good enough swimmer to stay afloat and
not drowned for a very long time, but with no
hope of rescue. That's my nightmare.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Oh that's awful. Yeah, that's bad nightmare.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
It's just like, at what point do you give up
when you're too angry to continue, when you're too tired,
when you're literally falling asleep, when you're thirsty because you're
in saltwater and you've got no source of fresh water.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Yeah, pickling as well as exerting yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
Oh, but there's a lot of strategies to float, especially
in seawater where you can use up almost no energy
to stay afloat and survive for a very long time.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
This is a bad mental picture. Let's go back to
the evil person.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
It's a bad mental picture. It's why I'm terrified of
open water. People like, oh, I'm scared because I'm you know,
i'd go right under. I'm like, that's not what i'm
scared of.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
I'd never thought of that as a reason to be
afraid of being out in the open water. Thank you
for adding to my fears. The fort thing I'm a
bad swimmer, so that's not going to be my issue.
I'm an acceptable swimmer, but I don't think I have
the capacity to outswim my tolerance for being in the water.
So yeah, we've got are and Gar getting very easily seduced.

(01:07:02):
And then she sends in some of her pets. So
she's already was messing around with Dolana, and then Grandall
starts flirting with her, and then she's like, okay, you
go play with Dolana. Also, here have some more of
my pets. I'm just like, so there's just like a
casual orgy happening like offscreen. Oh, it's just a developing
orgy just happening over there while the real plot happens
over here.

Speaker 3 (01:07:23):
Cool cool, cool in the background.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Really, that's just like, and I mean, is it an
orgy when everyone when only one person is actually like
having any free will? I don't know, because you know,
the mind slaves with the compulsion, Like are they even
really human at that point?

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Yeah, yeah, there's a certain amount like all these people
totally mind fried, pretty right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
Yeah, So but anyhow, there's just a developing orgy while
she's in the other room, trying to take a call on.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
A dove interesting line. Grendall forbids the creation of gateways inside.
Is she doing that with a dream spike? Probably not,
because the bailfire would have destroyed it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
I think it's just rules of the house.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
But wait, doesn't the dream Terran Greoll survive bailfire.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
I believe it does because it exists in the dream
world as well, So it can't be fully destroyed by
bailfire just because it got zapped in the real.

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
World, because, like I remember, Parent tries to destroy it.
I don't think I think he thinks that bailfire wouldn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Well, we know that bailfire doesn't work on Quendyar, so
it's a reasonable conclusion.

Speaker 3 (01:08:22):
But again, not all Terran Greoll or Quendyar.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Right, right, But it is one that exists in two worlds,
so sure.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
So yeah, I was I had a thought that, like,
how does she forbid gateways in her inner sanctum? Is
it just a rule or does he actually like have
a tear on Greoll that's enforcing that? And that's kind
of like, shall we say, foreshadowing the dream spike because
she but she is given the dream spike later right
to specifically fuck with paren So I'm assuming she doesn't
have it at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
Yeah, she can't have it at this point, though, You
are making me think. I wonder if if you went
into the pit in the ground that is what's left
behind after Natron Vera was zapped, if you'd find a
collection of various Quandar objects that had, you know, been
stored in various chests and drawers and stuff, and they
just all fell.

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
Tingled to the bottom.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
Yeah, like that, Now we have a stash of coolter
on Greall and Quindy are goblets and stuff for someone
to find someday.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Reading Dungeon Crawler Carl by the way, so spoilers for
one of the books, but in one of the books,
one of the ways he beats the bad guys is
he essentially gives all the good guys feather falling and
teleports the castle somewhere else, and so they're all up,
like multiple stories, just up in the air, and the
castle has like a really deep basement, so they all

(01:09:40):
just fall and splat. That's how he kills all the
bad guys by teleporting away the castle, but nobody inside
of it. And so this is sort of a similar like,
that's kind of what I imagine the quin Yard would do, right, yeah,
exactly exactly prised the castle and then everyone else everything
in it would go, would fall to the bottom. So
remarkable that happened in another series that I'm reading right now. Nice, Yeah,

(01:10:02):
Dungeon Crawler, Carl. I'm enjoying it. I will say there
is some some I do tend to lose concentration during
some of the battle scenes. Some of about because it's
it's based on a video game, so a lot of
times the battle scenes just happen spontaneous. They're random encounters
and then they fight and then it's over. And I
don't always follow what's happening in the battles because they

(01:10:24):
have gotten a little repetitive to me. However, I am
enjoying the rest of the book quite a bit so,
and it's a fun, you know, fun, lighthearted series. And
as we get into book seven, there's more overarching plot.
You're not just dealing with the individual levels. You're dealing
with more like what is the whole plot behind the universe.

(01:10:45):
So it sounds fun, Yeah, I would. I would say,
you know a lot of people I know have tried
Dungeon Crawler Carl are enjoying it. It's a fun read.
I won't say it's the deepest thing ever, but it
is certainly fun and isn't as shallow as you might
think from the first few books that a few books

(01:11:06):
are very you know, it feels like you're starting a
new video game to me, you know, and then there's
a little more plot, a little less video gamish as
we go on.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
But well, not everything has to be the deepest ever.
Sometimes you just want to read a book that is
a video game.

Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
Yeah, And I've been reading a lot of I've looked
at it and I'm like, man, all the stuff I've
been reading lately is from first person kind of sarcastic
male perspective. Right, Dresden Files is from the perspective of
Harry Dresden. Right, it's all I statements, first person writing, Bob,
the Bob a Verse all first person writing, and now

(01:11:41):
Dungeon Crawler Carl, it's all first person writing. So it's
like this, this this archetype I've noticed I'm reading a
lot in books is a person who's in a situation
telling it from their POV without really taking things too seriously.
A very Deadpool ask type style. Yeah, it's very popular
these days. It's so and it's working for me, that's

(01:12:02):
what I'm reading.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
Congratulations, You're with a trend for once, right Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:06):
Yeah, the dungeon Crawler Carl is definitely trending right now
for sure. So you know, I gotta stick with the
trends as well as you know, like I read Sarah J. Mass,
you know, didn't like it at all, thought it was terrible,
but I still read it all just because it's the
trendy thing to do, right, so, and I feel like
to have those conversations and have opinions. I need to

(01:12:27):
do those readings.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
Sure. Yeah, sometimes it's just homework. It's not for pleasure,
it's homework. I've not read that because I feel like
being a trend bucker and not doing the thing because
everyone else is doing it. That's explicitly why I'm not
doing it, just because I need to be obstinate and special.
Every now and then I get on a trend, but
usually I'm just like, ew, it's trending. I'm going to
do anything except the thing or come to it, you know,

(01:12:48):
eighteen months later, once everyone else was gone.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):
Yeah, there's a couple of I think I did that
a little bit with Dungeon Crawler Carl, because I've seen
it pop up as a recommendation in audible for me
for a long time, and I've been being like, oh,
that looks stupid. It's just video game stuff, Like I
don't I don't want to read video game books. So
I was very against reading it at first, but I'm
glad I picked it up. And it's the kind of

(01:13:12):
thing where you start to care about the characters enough
that I'm going to go back and like read, listen
to the first book. By the time I finish up
the series. It's not done yet, but by the time
I finish up what's published it just so I can
be like, oh, yeah, let me let me see where
these characters came from. I think that'll be worth it,
all right, decent tangent on Dungeon Crawler Carl.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
We can go back to the books.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
I'm at grand All having the Alarm come into her
ears and going and dealing with Ramchalan. That's about where
we're at. And yeah, she just grabs Ramshalan and like
gets into talking a robot voice that Kate reading does
a great like robot monotone for the audiobook, just very
like stilted and flat, and I like it. And yeah,

(01:14:05):
she gets all the information out of him as efficiently
as possible. Instead of dealing with a bunch of back
and forth mind games, she just gets the information in
a print out.

Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
There's this a captain of her palace guard, Garrimond. What
I feel like I've seen him before, but when I
looked him up there was he has this is his
only appearance.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Some mandala affect. Shit. I had the same feeling like,
surely this is someone. No, no, it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
Isn't isn't Garamond? The font spelled similar. I think it's
one of those things where it's like it's not exact,
but it's similar enough that you could like it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Ah, okay, all right, Yeah. So all she really gets
from this interaction she understands what Rand is doing. She
understands what Rand is doing, which is he sent a distraction.
He found her. That's the important part. She thought she
was safe and Rand has found her, and that freaks
her out because all of her plans are contingent on

(01:14:55):
him not knowing where she is. And then she almost
runs and then she's like, oh but I could stay
and figure out a way to hurt him, and then
she you know, almost dies because she tries to stay
behind and screw stuff up.

Speaker 3 (01:15:07):
I find it interesting that she does the initial compulsion
on Ramchalan just to get his information, and then actually
takes that compulsion off.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
H yes, I noticed that. I noticed that she takes
her own compulsion off, which I need can't.

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
Tell again one of those things I just don't see
Grendal ever doing right, like not.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
Without commenting to herself, how clever she's being.

Speaker 3 (01:15:31):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
If she had commented to herself, I had better remove
my fingerprints so that way when I send him back,
someone else is holding the bag for the compulsion, then
it would be fine. But the fact that it is
a non commented random decision, like that's Matt shit, that's
Matt territory, that's not Grandel. And then she gets the
dove and we get some really cool insights into the

(01:15:54):
true power, as well as the spy network of animals
that the dark Side has been this whole time. She
thinks about how doves are a little bit harder to
work with. Vermin are the easiest ones to work with,
but also they have to like go back, like when
they get used for regular surveillance, they have to go
back to report. Like there's all these little bits and

(01:16:16):
pieces and hints of how this stuff has been working
the whole series, since the breaking, since before the breaking, Right,
these little bits, these little bits. We love forsaken povs
for this reason. I also like that she thinks about
how different bird senses are. I've been re listening to
An Immense World by Ed Young with Brandon, really cool

(01:16:38):
book about animal senses. Everyone should read it, And I
just appreciated the part here where the perspective of a human,
the sensory experience of a human is fundamentally different from
a bird's, and that makes her surveillance awkward, Like lights
and sounds are wrong, and I'm like, yes, that is correct.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
She's seeing ultraviolet right, because the colors are more intense.
She's seeing like different colors because they have different cones
than us. Birds sealed traviolet.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
Right, and they're focused differently because they work at different distances.
And like the ear holes are very much not calibrated
to catch the nuances of human speech.

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
You'd be surprised birds actually, birds actually do have a
fairly similar tonal range. To us, they have a wider one,
but they're very capable of understanding. At least parrots are,
for sure, Yeah, because they can you know, they can
imitate a lot of sounds.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Oh sure, yeah, But like the hearing architecture is clearly
different on a burd totally totally.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
I think it's almost like they're hearing more sounds that
don't make any sense because they've got a wider range
of hearing.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
It's different. And I mean every kind of bird also
has its own totally totally right, Like doves and parrots
are pretty far apart. But yeah, I just I like
the nod to it that it's not just like getting
into a drone and flying around, like no, no, no,
you have to work with the fact that this is
a av in brain, not just you in a drone.

Speaker 3 (01:17:58):
And the fact that like she she's like, oh, I'm
not gonna fly it because flying's too complicated. I'm just
gonna nudge it in the right direction itself.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Yeah. I did like that too, like, oh yeah, no,
flying is actually really hard, which like I'm in video games,
I'm horrible at the flying tasks or like the underwater tasks,
and any video game like if you add that third dimension.
I am so bad at navicating well.

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
And then just imagine on top of that, she has
to like move the wings that she doesn't have, and like,
you know, it's like the throwing a ball for the
first time, you're gonna get it wrong, or you know,
some riding a bike. Yeah, yeah, very coordination based. Like
she's gonna have to learn how to do that, and
she hasn't put in the time.

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
Or you could just co opt the birds practice.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
And just till it go here. Yeah, which in a
lot of ways, like if you're programming a robot, you
don't want to have to tell it and move this wheel,
move that wheel. You want to tell it go here
and have the robot figure out how to get.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
There, right right, have all of its little onboard computers
do the math to figure out that stuff. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
My other is really into flying drones, like really fast drones,
lots of different kinds of drones. He's into all kinds
of drones, but there's a lot of You give the
computer the specs, and the computer does the work to
actually balance the motors to do what they need to do.

(01:19:14):
Because it's all happening far too fast. For you to
be customizing how much power each given blade is putting out.

Speaker 3 (01:19:21):
Which is what's so crazy. I think about the way
biological feedback works and the way predictive feedback works in
our brain and the fact that we're able to like
do what we do because we look at the response
times involved and just having a computer do it. It's
like your brain has to predict things because it literally
can't respond to stimulus fast enough. Right to catch a ball, right, yeah,
you have to be able to like predict where the

(01:19:42):
ARC's going and like put your hand in the right
place because and do that in a way that's timed
really crazy, like the mechanics of catching a ball, because
literally your brain can't react fast enough to the ball,
so you have to predict where it's going to be
and then put your hand in that spot and like yeah,
and the way that, like also optical illusions can happen
because you can your brain can predict something and if

(01:20:03):
the ball were to movement of light, like it would
just dodge your hand because you can't react to that movement.
That's why the pictures put spin on their balls, right,
because yeah, yeah, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, brain
chemistry is fascinating and response times and shit like that,
and like how much how much we live in an
illusion so that we can respond to things before they happen. Yeah,
and how much optical illusions and things where your brain

(01:20:27):
isn't seeing things correctly that happens because your brain has
to create this predictive model of the world around you.

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):
I mean, how just the picture that your eyes see
is upside down from how you think you're seeing it.
I mean, just right there, right there, you're already doing
a compensation in your brain to flip that image around.

Speaker 3 (01:20:46):
Like that's because you're not an octopus.

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
Yeah, we can't all be perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:20:51):
They have all different kinds of eyes that don't see
upside down.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
I'm currently listening to the site chapter of an Immense World,
and yeah, it's what octopi, humans and some other creature
that is also really far apart. Like we've all got
very similar eyes in terms of like the architecture of
how they're put together, but like obviously really far apart
in our evolution. And yeah, the upside down thing, and

(01:21:16):
well it's.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
Because I think octopus eyes I forget exactly how they work,
but they don't have a hole in them. There's a
different architectures. They don't reflect through a hole. Yeah, something
they don't have that they don't have they basically because
we have a pinhole camera, right, and pinhole cameras always
flip the image upside down. Yeah, whereas I think they
just have a full array of neurons.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
What a trip.

Speaker 3 (01:21:39):
Yeah, I was looking at that more. But but yeah,
all the same eyes have evolved independently multiple different times,
and so we have different kinds of eyes.

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
Well, here's here's the fun thing. I'm going to just
tangent a little more into that book. So the oldest
sense in the entire animal kingdom is the chemical sense.
That is the oldest, most universal sense that all life has.

Speaker 3 (01:22:01):
Call that smell.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
Basically, call it smell, call it smell. Site evolved from
that photoreceptors in eyes, that whole concept that is an
extension of the chemical sense in a sense, we're actually
smelling light.

Speaker 3 (01:22:17):
Interesting, that's actually the.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
Order of how we evolved the senses.

Speaker 3 (01:22:22):
So what part that's.

Speaker 2 (01:22:24):
The photoreceptor itself, the actual photo receptor, the part where
there's a chemical change in the eye in response to
a photon hitting it, And that chemical change is what
goes up the optic nerve into the brain to be processed.
It's a chemical change. It's from the chemical sense.

Speaker 3 (01:22:40):
Sure, sure, and then then our owns Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
It's not kinetic, it's not you know what it's it's
literally we that site is the second sense that evolved,
and it came from chemistry or from chemical the chemical sense.
It's a really cool book. You guys read it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:57):
Yeah, Hearing in vibration right, Like, that's another crazy one
where it's like, how much of that could you feel
before you have the sense an organ to hear and
interpret it?

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
Right, a mechanical vibration sense. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
so trippy, it's so trippy. We gotay focused on this book.

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
Well, and then the other thing we can talk about
really quick is the fact that five senses is such
a ridiculous categorization of our senses.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
Yeah, correct, in correct.

Speaker 3 (01:23:21):
Yeah, We've got all sorts of interpretive senses about our
own bodies, about balance, about the world of gravity. You know,
there's just a bunch of other senses that exist.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Yeah, there's a lot of other senses that exist within
the human experience, and there's a lot of other senses
that exist outside of the human experience that we can't
comprehend except through tortured analogy and.

Speaker 3 (01:23:41):
A lot of the senses we do have in different
animals function, like the animals that have a totally different
range of seeing, you know, UV light or ultraviolet right
or because you know, stinks can see ultraviolet right or
I can see not ultraviolet the other end of the
spectrum in for red infrared. Thank you. Yeah, snake's having

(01:24:01):
fred senses and birds have they have ultra violet. And
you know, all animals have different ranges of hearing here,
different spectrum. You know, hear different frequencies higher or lower
than we can hear. Dogs have different scentse smells and
can sense a much wider range of smells than we
can smell.

Speaker 2 (01:24:19):
Read an immense world by Ed Yong.

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
Do it Bat's at echolocation. I mean I can go
on and on on. Yeah, let's let's get back the books.

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):
We're doing secondhand compulsion on ram Shalon. While grand all
worries about how Rand found her and how dangerous is Ninive?
Does she have skills that are going to be a problem,
Which is hilarious because naive is how he found her,
But she does not realize the mechanic through which Ninie

(01:24:48):
found her. She's just like something to do with that, Almero,
woman is a hazard. It's like you are correct for
the wrong reasons, but you are correct.

Speaker 3 (01:24:56):
Because she say the only mining she let out of
her sight. We're under compulsion so heavy it would kill
them move it, and it did that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
That's the key, that's the key. It did kill him
to remove it.

Speaker 3 (01:25:06):
But he was able to get out just a bit
of information, which was the location.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
And I gotta imagine that that has something to do
with Ninieve's extremely skillful removing of that compulsion, you know,
like she removed it in such a way that he
was able to get those last two words out before
his brain completely gave up, Like a lesser healer would
not have been able to do that, and he would
have exactly exactly, only Ninive could have done that, like

(01:25:31):
Grandell did cover her tracks. She just, you know, as
all the Forsake can do. They underestimated Nineve.

Speaker 3 (01:25:38):
And she's also underestimating Rain here by saying, oh, he's
not going to kill women, not realizing that that has changed.
He has revised because he killed Semarrock and that's so
then he's like, nope, I'm killing women now.

Speaker 2 (01:25:50):
I have been forced forced to revise that particular inclination.

Speaker 3 (01:25:54):
Yeah, you know. And then she's like you next to
agon or I want Rand to find a type of
a man on his mind that they.

Speaker 2 (01:26:02):
Don't red herring for us as the readers, And she thinks, oh, well,
loose Thearren could have found me Randolph Thora couldn't. But
like the bleed Through seems to be getting, you know,
more and more intense.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
Which, yes, her information is just outdated, right, she's about
two books out out of date on where Rand is.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
Yeah, yeah, so a lot more.

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
About the Dove. I feel like we go into the
Dove quite a bit, and the flying with it and
the following the Owl would have been better. I do
like the idea that the reason the Dark One uses
rats and ravens is just like the one power works
better or the true power works better when compelling them.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
Yeah, they're the fact that they're closer to death makes
them closer aligned with the intrinsic force of the Dark Ones,
so their brains take to the compulsion better. I like
that as a bit of world building.

Speaker 3 (01:26:48):
And then we have an interesting contradiction right, because we've
been told over and over again the rats and the
ravens have to report back to the Dark One, like
he doesn't see through their eyes, but the Forsaken can
using the power of the Dark One. And you know,
she basically goes truges her shoulders and is like, yeah,
that's weird, right, I don't understand it, But part of

(01:27:10):
me is like, ah, man, this it does kind of
feel like this looking through the dove's eyes is not Cannon.
It feels like it's Sandersonian Sanderson thing, right.

Speaker 2 (01:27:22):
It feels like he found an eye of the world
loophole that he could wiggle through with just a little explaining.

Speaker 3 (01:27:28):
Yeah. Yeah, so it's that's not necessarily my favorite like
canon waye to And why choose a dove in this situation?
Why not just use a raven?

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
Because she had captive doves. She didn't have captive ravens.

Speaker 3 (01:27:40):
She hadn't prepared, Oh, she didn't have captive owls. But
I think she's she's using the dove to be more unobtrusive, unnoticeable.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
Well, right, because doves for a transfer communication is really normal, right,
everyone's got a dove coat, and in this you know,
kind of world.

Speaker 3 (01:27:56):
But I think rand also would fuck up a raven
if a raven appears.

Speaker 2 (01:28:00):
Right also probably then yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
So I think that's why she's using a dove, not
that she doesn't have ravens, not that she wouldn't prefer
to use a raven, but because.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
Yeah, I just assumed that she didn't have ravens on hand,
because she just has the doves, because that's a normal
palace operation stuff. It's just like having a switchboard rooms,
you know. Yeah, I would rather that it was that
the Dark One maybe you know what I feel like,
it's that the Dark One himself can't see through the
eyes of carrion feeders, but Dreadlords and the Forsaken can.

(01:28:33):
And so that's you know, where the legends are fading
to myth because there is nuance there that like didn't
make it through. But yeah, also saying well, life is
weird anyway, Aginer probably understood it is a nice way
to wedge in a little retcon that isn't too cannon break. Ye,
It's like, nah, Dark One works in mysterious ways anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:28:53):
But there is a little bit of like the true
power can do whatever we want because there's no rules
because we haven't really defined the rules. Yeah, yeah, I
get that.

Speaker 2 (01:29:01):
It's a nice pressure release valve on the constraints of
the cannon that has been built over all the years.

Speaker 3 (01:29:08):
And I like that an owl would have been a
better bird because they're predators.

Speaker 2 (01:29:13):
And they have way better hearing like owls hunt by
sound like, that's why they have big feathered faces so
they can hear better.

Speaker 3 (01:29:21):
Also, she's followed them through the darkening woods. An owl
would have been better, so it's getting dark. Owl see
better in the dark.

Speaker 2 (01:29:26):
Doves are like, it's time to go to bed, right,
you know, like it's dark. I'm supposed to be roosting
at this point. So she gets up there. She identifies
everyone standing at the gateway. We recognize this scene. We've
seen it before. She can't make out much of what
he's saying, but he's talking about kad swaying and boxes,
so we can all remember what was happening at the
end of last book. And then he turns on the

(01:29:50):
bailfire power up sequence and she gets it. She understands
what is happening and makes her escape in short order.

Speaker 3 (01:30:00):
There was an interesting reference here too, Did he recall
her murder of Yanet, and like, no context whatsoever, but
that seems to be a Age of Legends person that
she killed had to that was close to Lewis thearren.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
Is there any information anywhere, ever.

Speaker 3 (01:30:16):
Not that I can find that other than that one line.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
I love that, do just that one? Like, Nope, that's
the thing that happened that was really important and could
have been a whole book unto itself, but we only
have the one line. That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:30:28):
Yeah, let's see woman from the Age of Legends who
Grendall murdered. It can be assumed that Lewis thereon had
some affection for her, although nothing else is known.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
I really wish that that had been somehow tied to
the Borderlander murdered woman Prophecy thing. That would have been
a fun little Easter egg to tuck in there, damn it, Yanet.
And yeah, So she yoinks herself out of the dove
and tumbles back into her own body, looks over at
the two people who did the compulsion for plot based

(01:30:58):
reasons and undre present plot based ties them up in
air with shields, and leaps through a gateway. The gateway
is closing as the bail fire enters the room, which
feels like some real Indiana Jones hat under the door
times a bazillion.

Speaker 3 (01:31:16):
So you know what reminds me of It reminds me
of Independence Day. There's a scene when everybody's getting blown
up and Will Smith's wife is in a tunnel right
underground and the explosion starts coming down the tunnel. Cars
are flying everywhere, and she jumps into a utility closet

(01:31:38):
and the fire goes behind her, and it's like, there's
no reason why that fire wouldn't have totally filled the
room she was in. It doesn't. It's not a linear thing.
There's pressure, the door was open, she would have burned
to a crisp inside that room. And so this is
a similar like, yeah, you don't see bail fire through
a gateway. The gateway would have been vaporized along with

(01:32:01):
everything else.

Speaker 2 (01:32:02):
Yeah, the weaves that make the gateway would have vanished
before they were made, right right, Like, yeah, it does.
It feels like the timing is off, which almost feels
like Sanderson admitting that this shouldn't have happened.

Speaker 3 (01:32:13):
She shouldn't have even be able to go through the
gateway because it's like, again, the gateway should have been
destroyed before it happened, so she never went through, so
she should have gotten bailed fired.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
Right, She should have like hit the ground and then vanished,
right like long lived long enough to scrape her elbows
and then died.

Speaker 3 (01:32:29):
Ye, one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
Yeah, no, it's yeah, No, you're totally right about the fire.
The physics of bail fire do not. I mean, yes,
it's a light beam, so it does operate on the
straight line lightbeam principle. But also it's touching the gateway.
The gateway is enveloped in bail fire.

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
The only thing I'll say is the bailfire only undoes
the actions of people it kills, right, So it doesn't
undo so like she wasn't killed, So the gateway wasn't
undone before it was made, because it only does that
that the souls of people and the actions they take.

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):
Okay, that's fair, that's fair.

Speaker 3 (01:33:04):
So if someone else had woven the gateway, then she
would have been in trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
But I still think that the gateway should have been obliterated, yes,
bailfire on.

Speaker 3 (01:33:13):
Yeah, I agree, I agree, there shouldn't it should have
been she jumped through and then the gateway winked out.

Speaker 2 (01:33:18):
Yeah, exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:33:20):
There shouldn't be a blinding light at all. She should
never have seen anything about the bailfire. It should have
just been she jumps through and think gateway's gone. I
didn't close that. Oh the gateway got bailfired.

Speaker 2 (01:33:31):
Yeah, exactly exactly. That would have. Yeah, a lot to
complain about in this scene, even though it's fun.

Speaker 3 (01:33:37):
There's a lot to it, right, which is why we're
finding things to complain about because there's so much. It's
such an information dump, where like some of this is
contradicting information we already know or is not necessarily the
best way I think it should be handled.

Speaker 2 (01:33:48):
Yeah, but whatever. She has leapt out onto a hillside
not very far away. She's she's within shouting distance probably
of Rand.

Speaker 3 (01:33:57):
She's literally just outside the explosion radius. That pretty much it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:01):
Yeah, she jumped to a hillside opposite of where Randon
and Co Are standing, and she's real pissed for a second,
She's real pissed. She lost a home, she lost a
fellow forsaken, she lost all of her pets, but silver Lining,
she's now the safest that she's been since she woke up.
Because Rand thinks that she's dead dead dead dead dead dead,

(01:34:24):
and she's not. She's very much not. She's in the doghouse,
but she's not dead.

Speaker 3 (01:34:29):
We see the bail scream, and again, this is just
a wave of wrongness, the pattern itself rippling, and that
rippling doesn't necessarily mean it flattens the way it does,
and we only see one wave of it. I'm thinking
about when paren experiences the flatting, the quote unquote bail
scream that we decided was actually a bubble of evil.

Speaker 2 (01:34:49):
Right, right, But this, this description feels like it lines
up right. The pattern rippling would be a way of
describing what they felt. But this is only one. If
there had been three, it would be iron clad. But
there's only one, and that makes it messy.

Speaker 3 (01:35:03):
And the timing and the location don't line up, and
and and like, and the fact that only happens in
one spot, not in a lot of spots.

Speaker 2 (01:35:11):
Right, But yeah, she limps away with a twisted ankle,
knowing that the Great Lord will be mad, but also
already thinking about how she's going to turn it to
her advantage and in her you know, in her defense.
She does make it up until near the end of
the last battle she does come out of this only
completely changed in every possible way. You know, she survives.

Speaker 3 (01:35:33):
Technically, it was a strategy, right, and like again, if
she'd been planning for it, that would be different, but
she's not. This is definitely a retcon where she's like,
oh yeah, I totally meant to do that, and it's like, eh,
dark One sees through your.

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
Bullshit, just like we see through Sanderson's bullshit as above,
so below, and so with that, we are going to
conclude the first half of our coverage of the prologue.
We thought we were going to do this in thirds,
but it turns out we're actually going to do it

(01:36:07):
in halves.

Speaker 3 (01:36:08):
Yeah, there was not quite as much in those first
two povs, but there's there's six povs. So it's half
in terms of the number of povs, because I think
there's more than half the chapter left at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:36:20):
I think we're about halfway through, okay, because we're on
page twenty one in my book and the prologue goes
through page forty five, so we're real close to halfway.

Speaker 3 (01:36:28):
The only thing I'll say is when does the what
page does the prologue actually start on?

Speaker 2 (01:36:33):
Prologue starts on page one. That's where the numbering starts. Okay,
so we're about halfway in terms of page count. I'd
say we're about a third of the way in terms
of the heftiness. Definitely, next episode is going to have
more oop in terms of what the plot is doing
in those povs, but we'll make it work.

Speaker 3 (01:36:52):
So and part of me thinks that the next scene
was actually kind of written by Robert Jordan, right, because
I have a quote that basically says, before Robert Jordan died,
he incorporated. Someone was asked, asked about mules. It's sort
of an offhand comment, but he said, oh, yeah, I
always like to write Southern literature. So if you know,

(01:37:12):
remember he wrote a Fallen Blood of the Fallen, which
was under a different pen name, which is Southern literature.
And he says, it's not good Southern literature and unless
you have some dead mules in it, right, And someone's like,
dead mules, but you've never had dead mules. And Wheel
of Time he's like, I wrote some into the Wheel
of Time prologue. This was his last interview, right, And
so in the next scene, when the White Cloaks encounter

(01:37:36):
a bunch of dead mules in the river. That is
what he was probably referencing, which makes me think that
he had wrote written the scene with glad ahead of time.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
Amazing. I love that coming up next week dead Mules
to make dead Mules true Southern literature.

Speaker 3 (01:37:54):
But I think that's what that is. That's a clue
that he wrote that scene. And that's where I'm going, Oh, yeah,
why is this so much more dense? Why is there
so much more to these last two scenes when these
first three felt felt very Sanderson right, And we know
there's some paran we know that it was like one
or two things per pov that you know there was
an apop A point, B point and C point in

(01:38:16):
each of these scenes. Well then we're going to go
to the next bit and there's so much more. And
it's because it was written by Robert Jordan.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
I totally totally agree with that. All right, cool, I'm
looking forward to next week's recording even more. Yes, Robert Jordan.

Speaker 3 (01:38:29):
Goodeath, even though it's a Gollid, at least it's not
a god one goll It's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:38:34):
This is where he's turning around into a much more
interesting character, and I actually enjoy reading him and he
has some depth and nuance like as Gowain gets worse,
a lot gets better, right.

Speaker 3 (01:38:45):
All right? Then see you next week with a little
bit of Gollid all right. And once again thanks to
all our patrons and uh poo support us and continue
to support us.

Speaker 2 (01:38:54):
Consider listening to my other podcast, Kay Think Spye. Thank

(01:39:30):
you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
Please rate and review us on your podcast app and
consider supporting us on Patreon for ad free episodes. Watts
Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
more podcasts from Fox and Raven Media, visit our website
at foxndravenmedia dot com.

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Distinctions - Towers of Midnight prologue pt1 - EP544

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Distinctions - Towers of Midnight prologue pt1 - EP544