Foxheads - Towers of Midnight chapter 23 - EP558 - WoT Spoilers

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. We do
have a Wheel of Time chapter to do today, just
the one. We're just doing one because a lot actually
happens in this one.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
This is action filled and a little bit complicated. Elaine
has a trap getting into to do and getting out
of and getting Yeah, which is amazing. She actually gets
out of it in one chapter. And you know, I
don't know how much that's just pure luck really.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
And more or less onto her own power. Like there's
a lot of confounding factors, but none of the people
coming to rescue her actually have to rescue her, like
they all arrive in the aftermath of what goes down.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
She also gets lucky that they don't want her dead, right,
Like if they want her dead, she would have been dead.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yes, yes, there's a lot of luck involved, but still
there's a fairly rapid trap cycle compared to what has
come in prior books.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
A mini trap.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
You need a Meani trap well, because she's leveled up
so much, you know, like she can really get in
and out of a situation, because she has so.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
Much experience getting into traps.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, exactly exactly. You don't have to be slow about it.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Anymore, just with the added confidence of my babies will survive.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
So you know, this is also the chapter where she
starts to actually realize how foolish of an assurance she's
been having in that.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
But it doesn't mitigate her behavior in the future in
any way, shape or form.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Mostly you're I mean, she accepts the bed rest as
an insistence, changes her behavior for.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
A little bit, but then she makes them carry the
bed and she.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Makes some hoister over the edge of the fucking city wall,
which I just yeah, yeah, it's unfortunate. It bothers me.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Good it should. Yeah, moving forward, you want to read
us into Foxheads with the icon of the called the
two facing women, which is the black ajaw symbol.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, where should I read too? I have no idea.
This is a long, meandering thing.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, I mean, I think read until you're sick of reading.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Okay, fair enough, that works, that works.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Or you find something that you feel like is a
stopping point. But yeah, there's not a good stopping spot
in the middle. It's just kind of like, go till
it's peters out.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Until I'm sick of Elaine turned the strange medallion around
in her fingers, tracing the fox's head worked into the front.
As with many turangriol, it was difficult to tell exactly
what kind of metal had been used to create it.
Originally she suspected silver with the senses of her talent. However,

(02:57):
the medallion was no longer silver. It was something else,
something new. The song Mistress of the Lucky Man's Theater
Troop continued her song. It was beautiful, pure and high.
Elaine sat on a cushioned chair on the right side
of the hall, which had been repurposed with a raised
area at the front for the players. A pair of
Brigida's guards stood behind her. That's all we need fox

(03:20):
head Theater because the fox has the important part of
this chapter. The theater stuff is just set dressing for the opening.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
I did notice that it's called the Lucky Man's Theater
Troop while she's playing with Matt's like medallion.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Oh that is fun. I hadn't even noticed that. But
you're so right, the Lucky Man's Theater Troup while the
Lucky Man's medallion m hmm, with the woman who's about
to be very very very very very lucky.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Right, yeah, no, And it's lucky that she has it, right,
that's the only thing that keeps her alive for sure. Yeah,
and we get a little more information about Tara. I
like this part where it's like, let's get into the
nitty gritty of making Taran griol. Right. This is again
where I think Sanderson really shines is when you get
into some of the hard magics of the world, and
making Terroran real is certainly something that feels like a

(04:06):
hard magic. Right. We had that line that we of
Elaine's earlier was talking about like intersecting Matrice's right, and
so like very quickly, you know, Jordan established the making
of Tarran greal is this hard science that Elaine is
good at that nobody else has really figured out. And
she has a talent for reading the weaves in that
make up a Tarnrell.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
She's got engineer brain right in a way that a
lot of the other magic users have expressed a much
more like druidic kind of interaction with their magic. Elaine
can actually get done into some like blueprints and diagrams
and stuff in a very different way.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
That.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, Sanderson really excels at fleshing that out and making
it believable and fit with her character and fit with
the Magic System, and it's really good. It's really fun.
I enjoy it quite a lot. Even though I don't
have engineer brain, I like it when other people do.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
It's one of the reasons I really like A Rhythm
of War, which is Sanderson's the worth book of a
Stormline Archive series, because that just goes heavily into the
engineering of the Magic System, and I think that that's
one of my favorite parts about it. I think it's
first the first two books in that series really shine,
and then the last three struggle with various aspects of
the story. But my favorite thing about book four is

(05:17):
the engineering aspect of it, and I think that's that's
by far the strongest part of that book. And some
people hate it, but for me, that's that's the strongest part.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Well, that makes sense given that you are very much
an engineer branch person. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
I think some people hate it because it's done by
the women.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Oh oh, well, screw.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Them, And also, like I think it is, it feels
a little bit like a distraction. It does feel like
a side quest, so if you're like wanting to get
back to the main quest, it does it's like, Okay,
come on, let's get past this.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, that's the perfect kind of getting lost in the
weeds that I like it. I like an author, I
have a world that's that complex. You can get lost
in the weeds of engineering for a whole book. That's fun,
all right, So we're doing this, this ballot to this operatic,
shrieky soprano aria death spiral thing. It's fun, it's great.

(06:10):
I am pleasantly irritated at how Elaine is the kind
of person who likes sopranos, just going on and on
and on and on. I'm very much more with Brigida
in the last chapter, being like, bring me some wax
from my ears. It's just very shrill, like I like
singing and all, but like you just really hang out
at the top end of a soprano's range for too long.

(06:30):
My ear drum, like the cilia in my ears have
been flattened at that point and there's just nothing but tones.
And it's hilarious to me that Elaine likes it.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Not. I mean, she's in the Aristocrat, right, She's supposed
to like all that stuff. Yeah, that's the character exactly.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
I'm pleasantly annoyed by it.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
And the fact that this is the move from something
like a single bar to opera to plays to Shakespeare,
Like we're moving through that that sort of evolution of entertainment.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
And the reason that we're doing this particular play, it's
not just a throwaway concept. It's because it is a
Laurian's favorite ballad. Elaine is doing four dimensional chests on
Olurian's feelings about how streck Hand, which means catering to
her specific artistic preferences, which is this is her favorite story.
This has nothing to do with Elaine wanting to support

(07:21):
the arts in this particular way. This is her saying,
how can I support the arts to entice Alurian's guard
to come down ever so slightly?

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Not that it really matters, right, because I don't believe
at any point does Lauren actually kind of become like
you know, Towers at Midnight chapter twenty three. She's still spiteful.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
This is chapter twenty three, so that's not a fair comparison.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
But that's last she does.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
I think the idea with Alurian is that she could
have become an antagonist, and Elaine diffuses it before it happens.
I feel like it's one of those what doesn't happen.
Is the point Alurian could have decided to be like
a thorn in Elaine's foot and instead she just kind
of is in the back of the group, supporting Elaine
really grudgingly. And it's because of stuff like this, but

(08:09):
like nothing happens, right, It's not as exciting a plot
when something doesn't happen, But Elaine is doing something internally consistent, right,
which is being long term political politically speaking.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess if you want
to call this like the last that, it's just we
don't get anymore Alarian. It's not like this ever, payof
where Laurian's like, fine, I will fight with you in
the last battle, or you know, there's a nod or
like she just never appears again.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
But she could have as an antagonist very easy.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, okay, and this means.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
It doesn't happen. Plus, you know Sanderson and his shedding
of plots that he doesn't have time and energy for.
I think he made a graceful exit for this one.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
I would have liked a more final exit, some sort
of understanding between Elaine and Alorian.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
I was definitely waiting for that for the whole last battle.
I was waiting for a moment when Alurian came through
and she didn't, and it was like, but she never
betrayed or obstructed or caused friction. Sure, so Sanderson explains
why she doesn't exist by being like, well, she was
mollified enough to not be a problem less satisfying than
it could be. But also at least there's not a

(09:13):
super long loose end hanging.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Right right right, More about the voxhead. It was a
complex work of art despite being only a single solid
piece of metal. She could feel the weaves that have
been used to create it. Its intricacy was far beyond
the simplicity of the twisted dream rings. Right, So, just
how complex and how important and how hard of an

(09:37):
On Greol This is ter On Greil to create.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Well, right back when she figured out the dream turan grill,
it was a pretty big feat for her and was
very impressive to all of the other eyes to die.
And now she's saying that is relatively simple compared to this.
So that's again a sense of the level ups that
she's done in her tinkering abilities.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
And we find out that the form of the silver
isn't important, but the amount is fascinating, fascinating. I love it.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
The weight of the object, the purity of the silver,
not the form. The aesthetic form is completely immaterial, but
the weight and purity matters.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
Which makes sense that everyone has their own little custom
form of arrangreol they carry around, right, like totally the
size may be different, but yeah, I like these little
details about how teraron greoll are made, and then you
get the idea. And then I especially like the when
we later find out that on gre all and soanreall
are made with tearan greol. Right, and so there's this
like where do all these bits of magic come from? Well,

(10:35):
we're able to take care, you know, pieces of metal,
put weaves in them, and then use those to create
the onngreoll basically computers.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah really, if you think about it, you just write
magic runes with special metals and then you shove lightning
into them and cool functions come out. Like really, there's
no difference.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
And then important information about the copy. Right, not only
does it prevent you from channeling, but it can be
overwhelmed if the weaves are powerful enough.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, do we ever get a sense for like what
she's missing about that? Or does her study basically end here.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, I think she makes a lot more imperfect copies.
I don't think she ever makes a perfect copy.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, I don't think she has a break I'm not
recalling any kind of breakthrough where she understands what's going
on here. All she's been able to do is consistently
have the same range of problems.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
It kind of feels like the invisibility cloak in Harry Potter,
where like Harry Potter has the perfect invisibility cloak and
all of the ones are flawed in some way, and
like it's kind of impossible to recreate the one, perfect,
true invisibility cloak.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
I wonder what that trope is in fiction? What's the
name for this trope?

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, I mean it's because if you give someone a
powerful artifact and a way to copy it, you have
to be like, oh shit, how do I not give
everybody in this world a copy of this powerful artifact? Right?
Same thing with like guns, right, Like it's hard to
introduce guns into a world because they very quickly become
something that everybody uses, and suddenly you have a gun, yeah,
an equalizer, you know, and so you know something else

(12:06):
that Sanderson I think did a lot with in his
second era of Miss Born is because he introduced guns
into that society. But that changed everything about the way
magic was used in his world, and and in a
lot of ways, his wax and weighing characters are an
exploration of what do you do if you give these
magic users who can move metal guns?

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Interesting sandbox?

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah for sure, Yeah, so yeah, a little bit more
mechanics of how she uses the touching the medallion will
shut down her weaves and turn everything off, right, like
being shielded is how they say. It's sort of like, okay,
that lets us know some more mechanics about it before
we go into this battle, right, because the medallion is
going to be used a lot, So he's giving us

(12:51):
a bunch of mechanics about how it's used because this
is a new thing, this this imperfect medallion, and it
sort of gives them some of these new rules to
play with, right, and think.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
About the cost benefit analysis of making more of them.
How many of these does she want to have available
given how effective they are against magic users, Like they
are very effective against magic users, but they're very effective
against magic users, And how does she want to play
with that particular fire and.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
More importantly, they're effective against the Golam.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Well, she's thinking so far beyond that, right, Like that's
the thing is her and Matt have such different use cases.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
She does say, like the presence of the golm did
warrior how to deal with the thing? Perhaps copies of
the medallion for all her guards wouldn't be such a
bad idea after all, So the golam is still on
her mind as much as anything else.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, once the Golum's dealt with, But once the Gol'm's
dealt with, right, right, you have to get over that boundary,
which seems impossible at this point. And yes, having what
like a dozen of these is how they're able to
finally take the Golam down. Is because they just have
more and more and more of them to keep throwing
it the thing, to force it into a corner. And
I do like the moment where she thinks very briefly

(13:59):
about not giving Matt back his original and then immediately
slaps it down. And I'm like, that's the Avianda, that's
that's your really internalizing the parts of Getoe that makes
sense to you, and like trying to live up to
Avienda's sense of honor like, good for you, good for
you really internalizing that, because yeah, it's okay to have
that thought as long as you immediately shut it down.

(14:20):
It's like, so you immediately shut it down, We're not
gonna hold it against you. It's okay. But I just
I see the Avienda in that knee jerk reaction to
her own selfish impulse.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Right, because for her growing up like yes, for the
for the good of the kingdom, the queendom, right, she
should keep that. Yeah, but then she's got that honor
from Avienda that she has to maintain.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, you can do anything in the name of controlling
your own power, but for your girlfriend, yeah it is.
You gotta have a different standard for your girlfriend.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
So the play ends and Elane sort of claps politely.
You know, she's not obviously does not like it very much, right,
but she's she liked.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
It well enough, but it was background, NOI to what
she was actually doing.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
So it comes silvas. I I've got a weird feeling
off sylves I'm trying to figure out what her deal
is because she's got this emotionless display but a deep
cunning I want to make her a dark friend, but
I don't find any evidence for that.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Other than her personal secretary that she knows as a torturer,
being a dark wry right right, which is like big
red flag.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Also like maybe she's informing people, Like how do they
know what's going on? Is she an informant to the
Black Aja here? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (15:33):
I also have a lingering sense of distrust around Silveys
even after all these rereads, because we don't get a
clear answer in the narrative. I don't know if there's
like some word of Brandon or entry in one of
the supplemental materials out there that gives us an answer.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
But nothing that I googled.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, in the narrative, it's very ambiguous. Is she just
traumatized and surviving as best she knows how, or has
she actually thrown in with the Dark Friends on purpose
deliberately of her own will? Like where is her actual allegiance?
Because the secretary is not a smoking gun, it's just

(16:11):
a red flag. She works with this guy, she uses
his statistic skills, but that doesn't mean that she knows
condones joins up with his deeper allegiances. It would make
a lot of sense for Dark Friends to have someone
like that in as many noble houses as possible, and
taking advantage of someone who's close but not quite is great.
Her demeanor is clearly like the result of you know,

(16:34):
her grandfather's weird behavior towards her in control of her life.
But also how much has she leaned into that versus
how much of it is just protective and she's going
to come out of it after a few years, you know,
Like we don't get long with her, so it's hard
to say, but yeah, I still don't know how I
feel about her.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Right because it's her secretary who frees everybody in this chapter,
uh huh exactly, So it feels like she's there to
mess things up. But we never get a follow up again,
this is the last chapter she's in. We never find out, like,
does Elaine go to her and be like, your secretary
did bad things? You are responsible for your secretary? What's
going on?

Speaker 1 (17:15):
I thought there was a conversation about that later in
this chapter. No, like later in the series. I thought
there was some kind of mention about Silveys in her
post secretary being a dark front status. I could have
did I just make that up? I could have just
made that up. I had not read these books as
many times as the other ones.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
As far as I can tell, the last mention of
her is in this chapter.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Oh, I totally m all right, Well, either mandala effect
or it's so small of a throwaway line that it's
not in the documentation.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
I think they may talk about her secretary. Let me
see if I can find some information about him. I
could have.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Swore Elaine thought about having confronted Silveys over it, or
having been given reassure. I could have sworn there was something.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, I mean, the only mention is the secretary. You know,
he's killed in this chapter by what's his name, Melar Melar.
Jacques is killed by Melar, and so they mentioned that
he's killed in the next chapter. But that's it. No
mention of Sylves.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
Huh oh fascinating, Okay, moving on anyway. So, yeah, Silveys
and Elaine talk about Alorian, so we get some insights

(18:38):
intoto Elaine's view of Sylves as a person. And then yeah,
we switched to talking about the secretary, who will shortly
be revealed to be a dark friend, and Elaine thinks
about basically her willingness to use torture. As a queen,
you can order someone to do torture and not have
to actually physically perform it yourself. But it's still on
the buck stops with you. It's on your head, and.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
I have to wonder what would happen if she's ordering
a dark friend to be the torturer of the black
a jaw right, Like, I feel like that because you know,
from Melar we get this idea that there's a no
survivor's thing, So I get the feeling that Jack would
have killed them all pretty quickly by accident.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Well, I think what's happening, honestly, is that that's how
they're being informed of potential rescue plans and how the
invasion is going. Right, Elaine's like, how do you know
this stuff? It's probably because they're being tortured and being
given information at the same time.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Right, right, Jack would be the one who could pass
that on.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, he's doing the because she's not ordering him to
do hardcore torture yet, right, She's just like, oh, you
can only go so far, so it's easy for him
to be like, yeah, I did the thing, and they
didn't say anything because he was telling them information instead.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Got it, got it?

Speaker 1 (19:46):
But yeah, she's in an extra kind undrum. Because on
top of not wanting to you know, violate human rights
because torture, she also knows that these women have no
reason to talk, right because they're going to die or
they're going to die, right. There's really no bargaining that
she's to do with them. So she's in a bit
of a pickle. And that's I think part of why
she makes the bad decisions she does is because she
feels out of options.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, so she basically fakes being a forsaken. That's this
idea occurs to her in the middle of this or
I guess at the end of this opera, where she's like,
you know what, I'm just gonna pretend to be forsaken,
put all my mask of mirrors and go try and
convince them to tell me what's going on, just by
like pretending to be somebody else.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, exactly. It's a very rapidly assembled plan. Like she's
literally in the middle of doing her mingling after the
opera and stuff, and then she suddenly decides, you know what,
I should do, play a forsaken and try to scare
the secrets out of my prisoners, Like in the middle
of mingling with like Alaurian and Sylvas and doing all
this stuff.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
It's because she finds out Brigida and Matt are out
drinking and she's like, oh, Brigida is not going to
be able to stop me. So it's a little bit
of like, well the cat's away, the mice will play
type situation because her handler, her responsibility, her adult in
the room is off with Matt for a minute.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
And this, I think is one of the moments that
makes me the most mad in Elaine is that her
response to Bergida is a way is I can get
away with stuff, and like that is a profoundly disrespectful
and immature way to view your relationship with your bodyguard.
You used to have so much more respect for her
and so much more respect for what she was doing

(21:22):
for her and for the position you had put her in,
and now you're just treating her like an annoying, overbearing
helicopter parent Like this is this is not the growth
I expected or wanted in this particular regard like.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Heh of their relationship. Yeah, yeah, again, this is one
of those things where yeah, Samson may missed a little
bit where they went from older sister, younger sister to
adult child.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Which like they never were. It's not even like he
regressed them to where they were. He regressed them farther
back than they ever have been.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yes, yes, it's weird. It's weird. But if arness Elaine
like load up for bear before she's going off to fight, right,
she pulls out the on grea all of the woman
in her own hair, which is we haven't seen that
one in a while, but that's a great little ungreol
and she brings the amulet. So she's you know, basically

(22:17):
immune from other people's weaving and has an incredible amount
of power herself. So she is loaded up for bear.
Now she can't hold on to the goddamn thing, and
that pisses me off a little bit, like the amount
of just dropping it rather than just like having it
around your neck like Matt did, Like she should have
the original around her neck, not in her hand.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Right, there's a lot of lack of thorough preparation, Like
she literally turns to her guards women at one point
and says, how do I look? And they say amazing.
The slippers are ruining it though, Like she didn't think
to deal with her slippers until she had just some
random guardswomen notice that they were there, I'm like, how
many other things are you missing? Is not thoroughly checking

(22:58):
every single preparation and considering contingencies like what if it
gets knocked out of your hand, maybe put it around
your neck where your hand is not relevant to the
you know, like she just half an hour of going
over the plan with Matt and Bergida and this could
have been flawlessly executed, but no, instead she rushed to
get out ahead of.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Them with contingency plans.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
Exactly, with contingencies totally.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
Because like, who was the problem, Melar who would have
stopped them? A couple of soldiers, right?

Speaker 1 (23:27):
And like when she gets startled, she loses the gateway.
What if there had been someone ready to snap unto
the gateway open, or someone else who had made the
gateway in the first place so it couldn't get closed, right?
Like little things, little things.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
So as she's heading down there, she's all prepped out.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
I mean, she does think she's prepared. She does do
more preparation than she usually does before getting stuck in
a trap. I get where her confidence is coming from.
I just you know, I don't get where her confidence
is sustaining its power from.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
She wasn't worried she'd be safe men's viewing promised that
that's where she's getting the confidence.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Right there, She's loaded for a bear and she has
a viewing and nothing could possibly go wrong based on that.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
So, yeah, she knew that Brigida would never let this happen,
but Kayla was not Brigida, thankfully.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, that's like having the babysitter or the step parent
or the substitute teacher and getting away with something, And
it's just very immature and out of keeping with the
level of maturity Elaine has gone through in general and
with Brigida in particular.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
So she goes down those rats. I'm assuming the rats
are keeping an eye on the prisoners, and that's why
it is a bunch round.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
One would assume, Yeah, that many rats, like instantly hearing
the scratching of rats, Like, I'm a little annoyed that
she doesn't think that her palace needs to have slightly
better pest control, but yeah, presumably eyes and ears are
the dark one all over.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
And so then we get her basically bluffing chesmel and
saying I'm a forsaken you don't know which one bow
down to.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Me, which it starts out well, but then she's we
are to asking questions based on the answers she's gotten,
and that's never a good sign. I've been re listening
to Shadow Rising and I was just last night or
this morning whatever, listening to Matt dealing with the Finn
the first time, and he does the same thing. He
gets one answer and then tangents off based on that

(25:16):
answer rather than sticking to the plan. And Matt and
Elaine very very similar characters. So you see the same
dynamic here where she doesn't stick to the plan she had,
she starts improvising and that's what unravels everything.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Well, and I'm glad that you and I don't have
that problem of getting caught in a tangent. And we
definitely stick to our script every time.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
But we are not on a death timer. But yeah,
for sure, I'm glad that we don't do tangents. That
would be really annoying. No one would listen to us
if we did tangents.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
We know because we have those episodes. We know the statistics.
Y'all skip it, No, I know you do. Some of
you do it.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
They do get a little bit less play, but not much.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, do we get a couple of hints from Cheesmul
right that there's an invasion that's coming up. It's about
to begin soon. We also have that information in Matt's
letter if you ever opened it.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yes, this is hints about what's in the letter. The
invasion is almost ready. That's the invasion that Varren's letter
is about.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
And they're planning an assassination, one would assume through Jacques
and then Ta Melar.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
And that's of Matt. The Dark Friends were hunting Matt.
This is the first thing she gets really tangented on,
which I guess it's a good thing to get tangented
on learning that Matt is the target of assassinations, which
I guess means that's probably what the assassination he experienced
in the last chapter was. Was an attempt or a
test run of this, I guess.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
And then yes, side level is I'm testing your gaps
in knowledge. That's what I'm doing. That's why I'm asking
these questions. I need to know what you know when
it's like, yeah, no, that's not going to work.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
I mean, the best lies are tinged with truth, but
this might have been slightly too truthful. I also noticed
when she walked in and she says you are less
than a rat, and I'm like, the Forsaken usually go
with a much lower ranked animals for their opening insults.
You've already started out too soft for your foresake. In disguise,
they say stuff like you are a worm under a rock.

(27:15):
They don't go with mammals for their opening salvo.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
So she's getting this information right and not doing a
medium okay job. And then in comes this group of
black adjaw and Salvas's secretary who's Jacques Tamel eldrith? Are
they there to free Jazz Mel? What's going on? Like?
Why are these what's the coincidence that these two three

(27:38):
walk in right when Elaine is down there? It seems
very random.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
I was really hoping you were gonna tell me that, which, honestly,
this might be the best thing we've got for pointing
at Silvey's as an active problem because she saw Elaine leave.
But that seems like very I knew, because it's like
Elaine said I'm gonna go do black Gauja subterfuge and
then bailed, right, she just left, like you know, a

(28:06):
pregnant woman that needs to go use the bathroom might leave, right,
So I don't know that Sylves is really obviously implicated,
but I couldn't find anything. I have no idea why
these people decide to bust in at the exact moment
when Elaine is in there losing control of the conversation.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
I like the idea that this is support for Sylves
being dark friend and passing that on. That's that's my
best guess that, like, she set up a trap, they
set up the reverse trap. They have spies, they're watching her.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
It's tenuous, but there's got to be something. This can't
be just Teverein of the dark right. There has to
be some level of plot somewhere.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
And I think that might be why they like catch
it right away as they're like, oh, yeah, she's fake,
because we came down here knowing she was probably gonna
be down here, right. That's why Eldereth knows.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
No, because Elaine turns around and her companion believes the
act and Eldreth doesn't. It's entirely a body language thing.
It's not a knowledge thing.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
I guess that's right. Yeah, because Tamil's Yeah, Tamel and
the secretary both throw themselves down and Eldreth does not.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yeah, because Elaine just hesitates a little bit too much
at Eldrith, you know, makes a snap decision and is
correct in the way she snaps. The fight starts. You know,
it goes pretty well for Elaine for the first few seconds.
She's kicking ass and taken names because of having Matt's
real medallion in her hand. And then it is and
everything you know turns around. Yeah, yeah, and the Augreill health.

(29:35):
She is very strong as a channeler goes. This is
why she can take on multiple channelers and hold her
own for a bit.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
Right, because I mean, even just by herself, she's stronger
than any of these three. And then you give her
an ongriol, and she's going to be much stronger.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
And she's got surprise on her side.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Surprise on her side, and the onre all that's gonna
basically she doesn't have to worry about defense.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
Except then the secretary decides that if she's immune to
magical attacks, she's still not immune to momentum and physically
throws himself at her and shoves her into the wall.
That way.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Jack is smart. He does he uses the ninive offense,
which is, if magic doesn't work, punch him in the face.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
It's a tried and true strategy. It's a lot harder
to stop literal momentum than to do all the fancy
or yeah, it's just momentum's hard to argue with. It's physics,
pure and simple.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
And this is one of those ones where it's like, oh, man,
come on, e Lane, just wrap everybody in flows of
air and throw out shields. You should be able to
do that all at once. You're powerful enough. You're strong enough.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Again, if she had thought through contingencies with strategists for
half an hour, she would have thought of that and
in her mind been like, if I lose control, I
just use spider web on everyone and we're good. But no,
she didn't think about that. She assumed it would all
go according to her first plan, and she didn't need
to have plan bcdef.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
So she's got a broken arm from being thrown into
the wall basically, and she's lost the good on greall
because the secretary just clawed out of her hand. He
saw it, he was smart enough. He grabbed it, dude.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
And she hit him with a blast of air to
get him off of her as he achieved the medallion,
So she literally like helped him get it essentially again,
should have put it around your neck and tucked it
under your dress where no one could have seen a
flash of silver to try to call at.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
So then she basically uses the onngreol she has, right,
It's like, okay, well, don't have the medalion anymore, let's
use the ngreol. Knocks out to mail with the blast
of air mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
She and she throws Chesmel at the second secretary, like,
find you throw yourself at me, I'll throw one of
your combatant fellow combatants at you. It's pretty fun.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
So she gets the facts head of medallion back right
from the secretary because he's been you know, knocked down.
She ties everybody up shields chesz Mel but has an
active shield on her. She's tied off the other two shields.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah, and then she wonders where the guards and the
kin are, and that's where like we're into the like, yeah,
how did someone know to come down and knock all
of them out? Like was it just a coincidence that
this is when the escape attempt was planned or the
rescue attempt? I suppose more than escape.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
It feels more like a trap for a lane than
anything else.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
And yet assembled so quickly, so comprehensively. It's Sanderson, give
us slightly more information, please.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, what what was? What were the inciting incidents for
this exactly?

Speaker 1 (32:23):
And she can feel Burgida coming now because you know,
being thrown into the wall and breaking shoulder bones is
you know what initially lets Brigida know that there's a problem.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
And so she basically thinks, Okay, this is all wrapped up.
I'm pretty much done, just waiting for the cavalry to arrive.
But I've got all the bad guys tied up and shielded.
And then Melar steps out from behind her and stabs
her in.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
The back quite literally and kind of the side but
like it really is a come from behind knife in
an unprotected part, like stab.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Knife and the kidneysy, yeah, totally, and that causes her
to lose the shield on Chez mel who then shields
her in return, cutting off all the other shields right.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
And cutting off all of their bonds of air and yeah,
and so Melar got out because of the support team
that was coming in to fuck Alaane's plans up. Basically
let Mellar out on the way in to the other cell.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Jack seems to be the one who did all of that. Right,
he's the dark friend who went in and freed Melar
and freed these other dark friends and got them.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Out right because he would know where everyone was, because
he's been going down there to quote unquote help the
queen get information.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
So then Mellar insisted Alane get healed because he had
only stabbed her enough to make her lose the shields. Right,
she's in a fatal kind of way, but he doesn't
want her to die yet, so she gets healed. That's
that's how she survives losing the babies. This time she
does take a fatal blow, but magic fixes it.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Dark friend magic. But still, yeah, it's just like healing
and still healing, right, yeah, and it's still Liesoni healing.
So now this is one where I think she does.
It's the old school battlefield healing, right, it's the one
that makes her tired.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
And they haven't been given the ninevapgrade yet, absolutely not so.
And then Melar is creepy as hell, just so creepy.
You have to heal her so that I can do
creepy man things.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yes, well, yes, he wants to rape a queen. I
mean that's his goal in life.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
She doesn't die until I've had time to enjoy her.
I need him to die.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
It's one of the more satisfying deaths in the series.
When Brigida comes back and kills him. Yeah, really nice,
really really happy about that one. Him being such a
scumback for such a long time gets payoff.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
So then Elaine uses her secret weapon right which is
basically the flawed medallion, and she's being shielded by chesz Mel.
Throws the medallion to ches Mel, she catches it. The
fact that it cuts her off like shielding her basically
freeze Elaine from that shield.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
It's really clever. It's very clever when when the flaw
becomes a feature is a lovely little plot twist.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Again, the things that Sanderson is so good at is
taking things though, defining the limits of the magic system,
and using the limits as something to help you out. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, it's a really good It's just a really it's
a good narrative device. It's not something that Sanderson invented.
It's just something he's masterful at wielding.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
And so you know the at that moment where chez
Mel' is like, oh, I'll shield you again, Lane's like, nope,
fire in your face.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah, I no, you are. We are beyond normal polite
rules of war. I'm just going to literally immolate you.
And then she tries to do the same to Melar,
but unfortunately he has the original and no amount of
power can overwhelm the original's strength at diffusing.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Weaves, and so then yeah, basically she kind of backs
up because she doesn't really have a way to take
him down, although, you know, throw the burning chesz mel
at him, right, Like, I don't understand you already thrown
ches melt once. Throw her again now that she's on fire, right,
take him out that way?

Speaker 1 (36:06):
I know, I know. I think she's a little bit
horrified that setting a woman on fire would be that bad.
I'm a little confused. She like weaves her fire at
ches Meel and then thinks, wow, I didn't mean to
kill her, Like the fuck did you weave fire for?

Speaker 2 (36:18):
Right?

Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yeah, don't use fire unless you want to kill someone.
I thought that was pretty selfish.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's like, oh, I just wanted
to set her foot on fire to distract her a
little bit, and I used a gallon of gasoline. You know,
it's like hot foot gone wrong.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Right, I would have hit her with like a wall
of water if you wanted to like temporarily get her
knocked out at the fight, you know, give her a
moment of feeling water boarded, so she just cannot figure
out what's happening while you deal with the other guy.
Like fire is irreversible anyway.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
But yeah, she literally picks up Eldrith to protect herself
from melar throwing a knife. Just throw Eldrith at her,
like at him, like you're picking her up already.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
I don't know, man, She's tired, she's running out of it,
she's lost blood, she's been healed, she's used a lot
of power, she's running on fumes. And also he needs
to slit Ultra's throat for plot reasons, right, right, right,
That makes for a more excellent moment when she pulls
the woman up as a shield, thinking she'll be a
meat shield, and instead he's like, oh, thank you for

(37:17):
making it easier for me to kill her. I had
to do that anyway, check off my list.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
So he slits her throat and kills Tamile just by
stabbing her in the heart cause she's on the ground unconscious. Yeah,
so we have the death of three Black sisters pretty much.
And these are you know again, he's these are the
three black sisters that fled the tower way back. When
are they part of the thirteen?

Speaker 1 (37:39):
I believe so. Yes, yes, And she doesn't even kill them.
A fellow dark friend kills them. She watches helplessly, because
you know, dark friends are really good at killing each other.
And that's just like orders. You were captured, therefore die.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
I mean maybe that's what it was. That's what the
orders were, is like, we came down here to kill
these captured dark friends because captured dark friends are meant
to be.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
You know, that might actually make sense. Lunaalt's orders were
to release Melar so that he could punish those sisters
who were captured and slip away, and Elaine just happened
to be there in the middle of that. And then
Elaine goes for one more practical blunt force attack by
just basically trying to collapse the hallway on Melar as
he runs away with the medallions and just manages to

(38:23):
keep the original that is, she loses Melar, she loses
a copy, but she does manage to keep the original medallion,
which is really important for Matt.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yes, and for the killing, the goal, and for like
everything going forward.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's very If Mellar had gotten away with
that one, a lot of plots would have had to
go very differently.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Brigida runs up says, we found all the guards killed,
stuffed in the you know stairwell.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah, Brigida and Matt finally arrive again, like a little
bit too late to actually help her with the situation,
but soon enough to help her deal with the aftermath.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
And that switches us to Gowan, brings us to the
end of that POV.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, it's really funny how the first line is an
hour after the failed assassination attempt, and I immediately I'm
always expecting it to be like an hour after the
failed you know, the thing with a Laane, And then no,
we're actually with again. We're switching back to the Gowen
Agwayne situation of it all to one of their worst moments,
A lot of bad moments, but this is really bottom shelf,

(39:37):
like peak bottom shelf.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
This is when Gawen storms off and gets really sulky
about like being chewed out.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
Essentially, well, it seems like you no man will ever
be good enough for a warder. Yeah, maybe not maybe
the person who doesn't want a warder, doesn't want a warter, well,
fuck you, then it's so childish.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Or maybe it shouldn't be a man, maybe it should
be a woman, a shawn Chan woman who's coming.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Seriously, just hold out for Lylewn. She's gonna be so
much better at this job than this punk ass princeling.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
And so, you know, there's the argument back and forth
of like, you stop, I would have captured the forsaken.
You you know, fucked that up by triggering the trap early.
Now any deaths that are caused by the Forsaken or
on you now of course, like not realizing that there's
the blood knives. So they're both wrong in a lot
of ways because yes, the trap would have captured a

(40:30):
blood knife, and then you would have known about the
blood knives, right, But she wouldn't have captured the Forsaken.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Yeah, what I find frustrating is that Agwain cannot accept
that Gawain might have any useful information to bring to bear, Like, yeah,
he made a rash decision. Why could we please interrogate
why he made that decision.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
They're both very frustrating in this moment.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Yeah, he has information that is relevant to what you're
mad about him messing up. You need to call aborrate communicate,
but no, no, no communication in my wheel of time. Yeah,
it's very disappointing from both of them. I get its
late at night. I get their miscommunicating and having a
tough time, But her inability to admit that he has

(41:15):
any value at all is a problem. This is not
all on him.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
No, And that knife that got thrown at him, right,
let's examine that knife with a guayin and be like,
this is not a Forsaken knife. This is a sean
Chan knife. Like you might recognize it, even if you don't,
maybe we can get a little information, right, like why
are Forsaken throwing knives? That doesn't make sense. They just
just communicate.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yeah, and they're just talking past each other though. All
they're doing is talking past each other about what they
think happened and what they think the other one's thinking,
and they're not actually really hearing a damn word each
other are saying.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
So we get the scene where he talks to Cubain
about getting the younglings into the Tower army, and Cubain says, sure,
sounds good, I'll make a division out of them.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
I like it.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
No drama there. Yeah, it's a good little resolution.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
You know, Gwin is getting along fine with Juwbain and
making this like tying up loose ends from the younglings. Right,
there's a lot of loose ends there, and this is
just a really neat, no drama economic way to just
tuck it all away. And it's nice to have some
amount of communication working, like clearly Gowain can communicate with
some people, just not with a grain so.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
And then I just have him basically storming off saying,
I'm going to visit my sister. It's about tom I
went to see her, and me going, yes it is.
It's not that you're gonna make it right. You're gonna
he's gonna turn around before he goes anywhere and come
back to say Agwayne's life a second time. But oh
my god, would I have not been so happy for
him to just go to a Lane and take over
from Brigida and be there when Brigida dies to take

(42:46):
over the army for a Lane. I think he would
have been a better character that way.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
It would have been really satisfying, and then we could
have had some sort of moment where him and Agwain
can come together and talk and be like, yeah, we
weren't really well suited. That was a thing that we did,
and we're mature and we can recognize that that's not
going to have worked now and it could have been fine.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Or have her bond Lylewyn and be like, listen, I
have a worder. I don't need a order, but I
would love to have you as my husband and they
could fall in love.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
That would have been great. That would have been great.
We need to have slightly more fears of our lives
not overlapping, but we can have this part of our
lives overlap. That would have been.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Awesome, and then we could be on more equal terms.
You can be the prints over in Camlin. I can
be the ambulance seat and you're not just my worder.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, it could have been really cool. This could have
been when the Gwaen and GWayne thing turned around. This
is a moment at which multiple paths open up and
could have gone ways. And then Sanderson picked the worst
possible option of all those paths.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Oh, and then talk saying, could you imagine if you
actually saved Camlin, Like if, for example, Matt read the
thing too late and was running in but Gowen was
at the gate and was saved, you know, holding the
line and preventing the incoming trollicks.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
That would have been so cool, you know.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Him maybe maybe him in some younglings, or him in
some of his troops that you know, were loyal to
him back in and Or that followed him down into
the cave, or you know, for example, maybe Oliver opens
the letter and instead of going to Matt, Gowin's there,
and Gowin's able to save the city.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Yeah, he's there with like friends that you never met
from before the books even started, like school friends, and
they're out there just completely saving the day. And then
Tilmanis gets to be the cavalry that backs them up.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
And like, and that's just or just him. Even if
he doesn't save the day and stop the invasion of
and Or, he's there to fight for and Or to
fight for his homeland, to fight for for Camlin.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
And if he dies, he dies defending his home terf
rather than some patch of ground that Demondred was like
Dick waving over.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
And not bonded to Elaine or not bonded to Awayne.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Not bonded to either of them.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's unbonded. Yeah, really unbonded. He he doesn't need
to be bonded to anybody. That's not how his story
should end.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
Maybe he does still have one of the blood Knife
rings though, and like decides to use it because his
sister's kingdom is more important than his life and it's
all still epic and heroic, and he still dies, but
like with his prize from Jahatman, more of our shitty,
terrible fanfic.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Oh yeah, because we yeah, we'd have to rewrite the
whole last three books and we're not going to do that.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
No, but this is a moment where we might not
have been so annoyed with Gwen if this had gone
different ways from this point, this departure could have been
the nadir of the story for him.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Right, This could have been his low point where he
comes back as a different person. Not Oh, I'm this
love sick puppy who wants to be Agwain's order, But
I'm a leader of an army holding my own in
and Or and that's the reason she can love.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Me, right, right, That's what he wants as much in
conjunction with Agwayne is to be yeah, the defender of Andrew.
That would have been cool, but alas he's not going
to make that choice. But for now we are going
to make the choice to move to the final POV
of the chapter.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Land And this is not quite raising the golden crane
for Tarmer Guiden, but the golden crane is there.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yeah, we're really reaching that tip over point at the
top of the roller coaster, like we're doing the curvy
thing right at the top before the drop happens. Like
we are now at dozens. We are changing our alibi.
There is definitely a banner and a saddle bag that
we're not quite looking at yet. Like it is all
coming together.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Very interesting. The difference between Land's banner, which is a
golden crane on a white background, and Rand's banner, which
is a red dragon on a white background. How similar.
It's like them on this these noble forces of light,
which is their their image, their icon, their creature, on
this white background because the white is the purity, the goodness, right,

(47:11):
Like they are heroes, Rand and Land.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Well, and it's easy to see across the battlefield too, right,
It's like it's just that. Yeah, that's how you know
it's hero coded. It's very hero coded. And also, I
mean when rand got it. He was really coming out
of a period of mentorship with Land in the border Lands.
It's a very border Land or again hero coded esthetic
because of that, and it feels like a good callback

(47:37):
to early books to be like, hey, Lan, you know
how your mentor you know how your mentee had to
go through that in book two and three. Yeah, you're
you're going to have to, you know, follow in your
mentees' footsteps with accepting this banner situation.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
And it's not nearly as frustrating as parents banner situation,
where he's taking it out, putting it away, taking it out,
putting it away, taking it out, putting it away. Like
it's like Land just puts it away until the moment
make it out and then he says, okay, let's do this.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Yeah. Well, Land also has you know, twenty five some
odd forty years of practice before paren ever got into
the game.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
So Land is in his forties now. I believe it's
the official there's the old of the Moraine.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
He's not much older than Marine. So but he's been
doing this banner thing for the twenty years that parent's
been alive. You know, I'm just saying parent's a novice
at how to handle not wanting a banner compared to Land.
But yeah, it's like Land. If Rand has to deal
with a banner for the whole world, you're gonna have
to do your part and accept the banner on behalf
of the borderlands that want to be backing up Rand

(48:37):
and his banner, like this is this is where you
need to be in the structure. He's very close to
admitting it because the camp is now expanding rapidly. We
are getting dozens of men, right, yeah, the acceleration of
his force. Yeah yeah, yeah, all not in the make.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Oh yeah, no, We're definitely not here for the raising
the Golden Crane. No, no, not at all.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yeah, he's starting to accept like, well, they didn't really
ask to ride with me, they just started doing it.
But I still can't say no because I've accepted that
they are riding with me, and I've promised to accept
people who want to ride with me. Even if they
don't say they want to ride with me, they are
demonstrating they want to ride with me. So, and we
get lots of names here. I'm assuming more fan names,

(49:19):
but so.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
I'm looking up Wellyn was one who's visited by Marine
or by Ninive, So that was one where we actually
saw him before.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
These are the merchants that Ninive was visiting to get
the news out, because merchants have networks exactly.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
Yeah, and so and so was Mannigan, right, he was
with them in.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
My husband rides for Tarman Giden. Will he write alone?
Like they're the ones who actually witnessed that.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
I heard that? Yeah, yeah, same with Corney Ellen. Yeah,
I don't know. Let's see, let me look up Qui.
That seems like it might be these are Shanaran's yep. Yeah.
Qui is named for ja a fan of Wheel of Time.
So that first group were the ones we saw before.
But it looks like we have this second group of characters.

(50:08):
Who are these Shinaarns.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, five Shinarns who just have names that feel like
fan inserts, and I love that for them.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Joo is named for jow Pinheiro, a fan of the
Wheel of Time. Miracle is named for Joseph Merckling, a
fan of the Wheel of Time. Jan Or is named
for Ian Norris, a fan of the Wheel of Time.
Coheen is named after Joel Queen of the Fan of
the Wheel of Time. So yeah, those last five are

(50:37):
definitely all fan inserts for sure.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
And I noticed too if you look on the next page,
they go through this you know, little montage of a
discussion where they're offering their stuff up, and none of
them are named in that exchange. It's like it's like
the first one said this, the second one said that,
the third one said this. So like Sanderson wrote this
and just left blanks for the names in the preceding paragraph,
but didn't actually insert those names into how the subsequent

(51:02):
conversation goes like it really was just like pop them
in there and let's go like at the last minute,
I'm assuming because you know it was.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
It was.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
There were a lot of them were beta readers, right,
They were like helping him like near the end of
the writing process with making sure everything was good. So
and so. Yeah, basically, these guys sold everything that they
own and turned it into the most dense war materials
they could so that they could carry literally all of
their wealth to join the fight.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
And I'll just maybe read us out, yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Do it. This is this is a swelling moment of
music as we're approaching the beginning of the end.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
It's it's great, we have brought what we could to
the cause of the golden crane. Another of the merchants added,
all that we could gather in a little time. It
is not much, said the third, but we lend you
our swords as well. We may look to have grown soft,
but we can fight. We will fight. I don't need
what you brought, Land said, exasperated. Aye, before you say

(52:01):
too much, old friend, Andre said, laying a hand on
Land's shoulder, Perhaps you should have a look at that.
He nodded to the side. Land frowned. Hearing a rattling sound.
He stepped past a patch of trees to look upon
the path to the camp. Two dozen wagons were approaching,
each piled high with supplies, weapons, sacks of grain tents.

(52:22):
Land opened his eyes wide. A good dozen war horses
were hitched in a line, and strong oxen pulled the wagons.
Teen stirs and servants walked alongside them. When they said,
they sold what they could and brought supplies. Andre said,
they meant it. We will never be able to move
quickly with all of this, Land said, and deer shrugged.

(52:43):
Land took a deep breath. Very well, he would work
with it. Moving quietly appears to be failing. Anyway. From
now on, we will pose as a caravan delivering supplies
to Shinar. But you will swear to me, he said,
turning towards the men. Each of you will swear not
to reveal who I am or send word to anyone
else who might be looking for me. You will swear it.

(53:05):
Naziar looked like he would object, but Land silenced him
with a stern look. One by one they swore the
five had become dozens, but it would stop there.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Spoilers. It won't, It won't.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Also, they're swearing to you right like there's loyalty. There's
a band right that you've claimed authority over them.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah, he is doing his best parent impression, having it
both ways at this point. It's going to pass relatively quickly.
But he is doing a parent impression right now.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
And that's pretty much it for that chapter.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yeah, we're moving forward, we're tidying plots up, we're getting
people collected.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Gowin's being a little prick.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Gowin's being annoying, but we are at least moving him around.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Right.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
We've got some of his younglings pushed off into the tower.
We've got him going to talk to a lane. We've
got a Gwaine learning that there's more going on in
terms of threats to her life than before. Like we're
at least getting some kind of motion and not just spiraling.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Yeah, and he's cutting characters off, right, there's a lot
of characters, Like this is the final chapter they're in, right,
this is the.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
Group killing characters, he's killing plots. He's again, we're streamlining,
we're densifying, we are collapsing the floors towards the final level.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
And let's just run down those thirteen. I've got the
list of the thirteen members. So Leandren ends up serving
as a doc oveil cheesmul Emory. We just saw her
get toasted, fried toast Eldrith.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
She just died too, on Melar's knife.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
Melar. Yeah, Marlyn captured by Elaine and then escapes. I
don't think we get a final death or anything on her.
She's just escaped at some point as Nay killed by
Chanell trying to take Elaine out of Kamlin. That was
a knife of dreams.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
Oh, in the big bail fire battle thing.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Yes, yeah, Jeanine green Aja killed by Tom in the
last battle. She's the one who's trying to get in,
sneaks in and Tom stabs her in the back.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
She walks in looking like kad Swain, but she doesn't
walk like kadswayn, so Tom just knifes her without hesitation.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
Falane serves Milly Skane but escapes. In Abu Dhar Towers
of Midnight, Marilla blew Aja, location unknown. We never get
any information on her. Really, Wow, Ispahan killed by Karin
carry inn I. Everyone say that in Abudar. Remember that
Karrian the Dark Friend, the dark Friend.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
Yeah, okay, okay, you're cool, just making showers remembering that
name correctly. Okay. So sometimes the dark Friends take each
other out in the name of keeping their subterfuge.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
Mostly what they get captured and they're not allowed. It's
basically they get killed as prisoners, so they don't give
over any information.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Right, Okay, yeah, man, it seems like a really bad
cost benefit analysis to.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Go into being a dark d oh yeah, tirre terrible.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Your own allies are your most major danger.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Like uh Rihanna. She's white. She survives the last battle
and is captured in the.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Steading Oh okay, okay, she's one of.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
The stetting ones. Joya By are killed by Slayer after
being captured in the Stone of Tears, so again captured
and killed.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Yeah, those are really distinct. If you get captured, you
get killed. That's two Isidi get killed in that if
I'm are calling correctly right, it's Joya and.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
Amiko Amiko Yep, yeah, joy and Amika was the next one,
and then to mile So, Tamile, Amiko, Joya, Ispahn, Eldrith,
and chezmel So. At least six of the thirteen are
killed after being captured.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
By other Dark Friends.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Yeah, I really don't see the benefit and being a
dark friend.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
And the rest of them, and then of the ones
that weren't killed, Leandern was captured by as doc O
vail Rihanna's stuck in the setting. So that's two, and
then like like two more captured permanently, and then a
couple others are killed but in actual battle. But yeah,
for the most part, for those parts of those thirteen,

(57:47):
of those original thirteen Black Aja who we you know
are going to be such a big part of the series,
we think most of them are just captured and then
killed at some various points in time.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Not by our heroes, captured by our heroes and then
killed ingloriously by their fellows. That is kind of wild.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
So chess Mel is killed by Lane, Jeanine is killed
by Tom. That's it wow, because the everyone else is
either killed is either captured permanently or killed after being captured,
or the one that we don't know anything about. Just wow,

(58:28):
our girls are not very so literally that chapter. This
chapter is the only time one of the Supergirls kills
one of the thirteen. The only time.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Is this that is wow is when.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
She takes out Chessmel. She didn't even mean to do
it either.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
I really debate setting someone on fire and not meaning
to kill them as being at all thought. But what
you mean like it's a in the moom heat of
battle kind of kill rather than a deliberate like.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
I'm going to take this person out?

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Yeah yeah, Wow. That is an incredibly unsuccessful I mean,
Moraine kills more Forsaken than the super Girls kill of
the thirteen. Like Moraine by herself kills more of the
literal forsaken than all the Supergirls manage to kill of
the thirteen that they went out hunting. That is bonkers.

(59:21):
I mean, granted, a lot of the ones that get
killed by dark friends would have been executed by the
eyes to die judicial process.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Ultimately, they captured many of them, right, Yeah, of the
six that were killed, they captured those.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
Yeah, they would have been taken to to a calculated death,
but still they didn't actually get there. The Dark Friends
had beat them to it.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
So that was a fun little It's kind of like,
when you look at the Forsaken, you like, didn't Ran
kill a bunch of them? You're like, not really, Moraine did.
But Ryan kill about the same number a forsaken.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Wow, it's an interesting perspective.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
I mean Rand kills a Shameel three times four times?

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Actually is that one or four?

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
The question, and.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
He's not, you know, kill defeat. He doesn't technically kill
him in those first couple of books, even though he
stabs he does for the sword. Yeah, he thinks he does.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
He takes a lot of personal damage and thinks he does,
so I mean it feels like it counts initially as
a first time reader. Fun. Well, we got through that
in an hour.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
That was it was long enough. I don't think we
want to do another chapter on top of that, but
short enough that we did blow through it pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
So yeah, This is definitely the most variable length of
all my podcasts. Everything else I produce has a much
more consistent pocket that its length falls into. Watt Spoilers
is really a wild animal.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
It depends a lot on the chapter, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
It really does. It really does, And.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Maybe we could have packed two into this one. But
I'm happy we didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
I'm really happy we didn't. I'm tired and still have
as we've been hinting another project to work on. Are
what are we telling this audience about that?

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
I don't know how closer to when it comes out,
I think we want to hype it up a little
bit more.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Yeah, stay tuned, Stay tuned for news that we're doing
a bad job of keeping secret. I thank you for
listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate
and review us on your podcast app, and consider supporting
us on Patreon for ad free episodes. Watts Spoilers is

(01:01:25):
a production of Fox and Raven Media. For more podcasts
from Fox and Raven Media, visit our website at Foxendravenmedia
dot com.

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Foxheads - Towers of Midnight chapter 23 - EP558

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Foxheads - Towers of Midnight chapter 23 - EP558