The One He Lost & Reading The Commentary - The Gathering Storm chapter 47 & 48 - EP541 - WoT Spoilers

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
So today is an intense day in the books. This
is a very intense darthiest of darth, dearest of nay dear.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
It's more in the stone than intense. Really, I will
kick you off this podcast. There's something about the word
intense that just makes me absolutely go oh that that
really needs to be about being inside canvas tense.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
What did any of us do to have you inflicted
upon us?

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Okay, I blame this is but please gout that a lot.
Please got that a lot. I want people to know
about that.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Moving on from that terrible pun that I will be
leaving in the air, Okay, fine, we all have to
suffer to set terrible puns, regardless of where they came from.
This is the darkest moment before the dawn kind of thing, right,
Veins of Gold is the return from this darkness. This
is the dark that prompts Veins of Gold.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Well, this is the moment right the whole I don't
want to be a threat to my loved ones. I
don't want to kill my loved ones. Rand has really
gotten to that point where that's the thing that makes
lewis He's the kinslayer, right, he's the person who turned
on his wife and children and all the rest of
his family and servants and murdered them. And that's the

(01:55):
thing that Rand didn't want to be, so in this moment,
he really he sort of proves to himself that he
is insane. And that's where it's like, yeah, this is
this is the low point. This is the moment where
it's like, holy shit, I am as crazy as Lewis
Tharn was because I was about to kill my father
for doing no more than mentioning Codswain.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Right, for doing no more than trying to help him
with an eyes to divee prompting not a killing offence.
One would say, yeah, yeah, no, because it is. For
so much of the series he's been like not yet.
I'm not mad yet. I'm not losing it yet. I
still have a little longer. I can still hold on,
I can still become harder. And this is him going

(02:37):
I seem to have run out of rope. There seems
to be no rope left.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
I seem to be just crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Absolutely, Like there's no line that he won't cross now,
you know, like semarog forced him with men. But this
is him choosing it with tim and that's just a
whole other level of no, you are as bad as
Lou's barren ever was.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
There is no line even to yourself that you no lie.
You can tell yourself like you did the thing almost
close enough.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Like yeah, yeah, you stopped yourself, but only because you
realized you were doing the thing.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Because he gets a chance to do again, because he
remembered his lives and the Dark One saved him because
lessons learned and iterative stuff. But also it's bad to
remember past lives. I'm not quite sure what the moral
there is, but.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, I think again the way Brandon Sanderson sort of
puts his thumb on it and is like, wow, I
couldn't have beat the Dark One without his corruption, it's
it steals something away from it, because I like think,
just by pointing it out, it almost makes it like, Okay,
then what are you trying to say there?

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Right?

Speaker 1 (03:43):
If you're gonna point it out, say something about it.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I don't know I could do with a little less
Sanderson thumbprint on the whole vans of Gold thing. But
I do really like the cinematic darkness that is him
spiraling down the drain for these two chapters. So maybe
we should get into the reading, which is yours to
get started.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah. Absolutely, the one he lost and our symbol is
the dragon. What's the one he lost?

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Which one of the hands? Uh? It's that line about
two hands, one to destroy, the other to save, the
other to save which had he lost? And I don't
know that he needs to have such a binary sense
of saving the world versus death. But you know, again
Darth Rand.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
And it seems like he changes his mind at veins
of Gold or I.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Mean being suggested in chat by pants, which mind didn't
because you know there are multiple minds in his brain, right,
I mean this one goes sils, not how I interpreted it,
but that's actually maybe a good layer.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Rand did not return to his rooms immediately. The failed
meeting with the Borderlanders had left him feeling unhinged. Not
because of their tricky attempt to pull him into formatting.
That was frustrating, but it was not unac inspected. People
always tried to control and manipulate him. The Borderlanders were
no different. No, it was something else that had unsettled him,

(05:09):
something he couldn't quite define, and so he stalked through
the stone of Tyr two, aieal maidens trailing behind him,
his present startling servants and unnerving defenders. The corridors twisted
and turned. The walls were unadorned by tapestry, were the
color of wet sand, but they were far stronger than

(05:30):
any rock. Ran new, alien and strange, each smooth span
a reminder that this place was not natural. Rand felt
the same way. He had the form of a human. Indeed,
he had the mannerisms and history of one. But he
was a thing that no human, not even himself, could understand,

(05:51):
a figure of legend, a creation of the One Power,
as unnatural as tarangreal, or a fragment of quendiar. They
dressed him up like a king, just as they dressed
these corridors with tasseled gold and red rugs, just as
they hung the walls with those tapestries, each one depicting
a famous Terran general. Those decorations were intended for beauty,

(06:15):
but they were also intended to obscure. The patches of
naked wall highlighted how alien the place was. Rugs and
tapestries made it all feel more human, just as giving
Rand a crown and a fine coat allowed them to
accept him. Kings were supposed to be a little different.
Never mind his much more alien nature hidden beneath the crown,

(06:39):
never mind his heart of a man long dead, his
shoulders created to bear the weight of prophecy, his soul
crushed by the needs, wants, and hopes of a million people.
Two hands, one to destroy, the other to save. Which
had he lost? That was kind of a long reading,
but I wanted to get to the title.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
I yeah, no, that was the correct lengthy and there
was only one read in length and that.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Was so Yeah, he's he's being weird, right. He doesn't
think of himself as human. He thinks of himself as
something made out of the power, the dragon reborn that
exists in some ways. He is right, He has these
memories that change who he is, that makes him something
very unique. Also, the amount of power he has, it

(07:24):
is at his disposal.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, but you know, also there's a healthy way to
deal with that in an unhealthy way, and the healthy
way would be to actually talk with all of his
other friends who have demigod powers and have a you know,
support group where they all talk about how they have
different but similar struggles. But he's doing here is the
unhealthy thing where he's taking it all on himself and

(07:46):
making it out into a like persecution complex and isolating
and ruminating and just not having anyone but himself to
talk to about it, and really just getting lost in
time and in space, like he's running through the hallway
for hours on end, just trying to like forget in
the strain of physical exertions. He needs a support group.

(08:08):
He needs us, a port group of tavern and super
powerful channelers where they all just talk about their feelings.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Meanwhile, the pattern's like, hey, here's your buddies. You have gateways,
here's your buddies, here's where they are. Open a gateway,
go say hi. I mean he's like, fuck that. I like,
because he has everything he needs. Open a gateway and
go visit them. We see god swayin do it right
from his vision. She opens a gateway and goes and
visits paren Right. So why why is he not you know,

(08:35):
seeking out his friends.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, because he thinks he's he's internalized a specific take
of the prophecies that make him feel like there's one
way to be And again, you need to talk to
someone other than yourself in order to learn that. Maybe
some of your assumptions are wrong, and maybe there's alternative
explanations to what you thought was absolutely set in stone,

(08:59):
because you've literally really never bounced your ideas off of
a single other person.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
Right.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
He tried to talk with Maureene about the prophecies, but
I don't think anyone else has ever, you know, really
been having that conversation with him this whole time. And
yet he's making all of these decisions about how he
should dissociate and how he should see himself as alien
and separate, and like this is all stuff that is
really baked into his interpretation of how the prophecies go.

(09:25):
And it's like, I give Men props for becoming a
philosophy major on her own home study in just a
couple of months, but Rand is giving himself even more
credit than Min is claiming, and he has had way
less time and energy to devote to it than she has. Like, Rand,
you need to be bouncing some of these ideas off
of someone like you. He had Herod Fell for a

(09:46):
little bit that was good, and then Harod Fell got
killed and he has not picked these conversations up with
men to the same degree, at least not on this
on page that we've seen. It's just like, you know,
this is the autistic struggle, just ruminating on your own,
like specific way of looking at the world, and you
have no idea that these are actually really normal struggles,

(10:07):
even if they are unique. You know, he has lots
of friends who have similar struggles that most normal people
can't understand. Right, It's like, yet, you're not all the
dragon reborn, but none of you are as strong as
nine Eve, right. None of you have battle memories specifically
like Matt, none of you have wolf smell like parents.
You all have unique stuff going on, And.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
I feel like this chapter is these actually pair of
chapters is very much about the use of calendar in
the Last Battle.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, that's sort of like the Undertipe, like it's also
about Ran. But what I didn't realize when I first
read them is how much these are really about why
Rand needs to use calendar in the Last Battle big time, yeah,
and why the children call and what he's really ruminating
over in the beginning of this chapter is yes, himself
and what's going on with him, but also his failure

(11:00):
years around calendar, right, and why the children call was
such a better tool. Right, So he's like, you know, first,
he's like, oh, my first real failure is like fighting
the shan Chan. I was gonna He's like no, and
Lewis Tharon corrects him. He's like, no, no, no, no, no no.
Your first real failure was the first time he used
tried to use calendar and he tried to heal the

(11:21):
dead little girl.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah. Yeah, calendar is a huge presence in both these chapters.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
And so there's a there's a lot of little nuggets
spread out between this. There's a conversation between rand and
Lewis Thearn going on while he's thinking about calendar, while
he's thinking about himself, like and it's just there's these
great nuggets split around. This is a really good chapter
to be in. Randon Lewis Thearn's head.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, for sure. For sure. We also get the very Sandersonian,
I think, very Mormon thing about like the voice in
his heart, like being all upset, not the voice in
his head, the voice in his heart. The voice and
his heart vanishes when he throws tam to the ground,
like it's kind of like a Gwayn's chair, right, He's
like putting one of those like little backbeat things you
can check in on, but it feels just so painfully

(12:09):
Sanderson that it's not smooth like the chair.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
No, no, well, I mean I feel like what we've
been seeing is the original Rand, right, it's the voice
of the farm boy Rand who's been subverted by this
king and by belty T in his head. It's the like,
it's the part of him that's not insane. It's kind
of how I think of it.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Sure, yeah, the memory of the man that was pre
all this stress, the boy. Really. I also wonder if
a million people? Is there really only a million people
in this world? Pretty sure there should be a couple
of million people.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Oh where's that from?

Speaker 2 (12:43):
In the read in the intro his soul crushed by
the needs, wants and hopes of a million people. I
think that might be figurative million.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, yeah, but I.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
Feel like this, even this world has to have more
than a million people in it.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
It might just be the countries that he has direct
control over, but still, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Mean, I'm sure the world doesn't have a billion people.
I'm sure that's far too many.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
But I feel like just in terms of like I
yeel like we're over a million, you know, it's.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Probably like a forty days and forty nine. Kind it's
not actually meant to the number of zeros isn't important.
It's a big number, and that's what's important. He's going
through all the things he thinks are bothering him, and
he starts out with hearing it's like, Karen is what's
bothering me? Here In is is the issue? Which, like
I mean, in many ways, here In is a precipitating
incident of tonight's stressful walk. It's not not part of it.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, in a lot of ways, like that treatment of
the way his old friend was really this moment where
he's like, man, I am not the same person.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Right right. The surprise on Harin's face was more authentic
than anything any of his current entourage could say.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
So that does seem to be one of this, But
there's a whole series of events that's happening that accumulates
when his father comes into play, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Because he moves from thinking about here In and the
you know, what was going on in his life at
the time to thinking about his other friends, which leads
to thinking about Elaine and like, so you know, he's
he's escalating which relationship he's thing about, you know, Hearin
is pretty low, and then Elaine's pretty high on the
emotional intensity. But he runs through that whole gamut in

(14:17):
like two paragraphs, so you know again, rumination spirals are
kind of his whole night at this point, and he's
trying to just push his emotions down. I am strong.
Longing's an emotion you cannot feel. Nostalgia gets him nowhere,
like he is literally running from his emotions, like literally
running down the hallway saying I can't have these feelings,

(14:38):
Like you cannot more literally run away from your emotions
if you try. This is the most literal running away
from your emotions.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Meanwhile, I was there, And do we run from the
past then yes, that is well, better to run and
face it, you know, as Loren's running away.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Be a cycle breaker, rand Lose is giving you the clue. Yeah,
he thinks, let's see, he thinks about seeing a sham
on his dreams. He runs to the calendar room the
Heart of the Stone and ruminates on that a lot,
kind of kicking off the calendar theme for the next
two chapters.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Right, So, the crystal Sword is in Codswain's possession, which
we know she gave and trusted it to some of
her eyesid ee allies, we never she just pops it
out when Rand asked for it, So that's not really
relevant who has it, but somebody's holding on to.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
It at key two because she says, like a pair
of eyes to die who have retired from the world.
So I'm just like, okay, so Adalius and van Den,
but like a different pair of not biological sisters who
did the exact same thing. Because Katswayne's been around for
a long time and she knows several of these.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, and so he's just like, and why why is
the Corinthian cycle keep mentioning the calendar? Why? And it
doesn't mention, you know, the children Hall, which is crazy
because I cleanse the source. You think, you know, there's
nothing in the Corinthian prophecy Koreathon about cleansing the Careathon.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Sorry, it's not Corinthian.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Corinthian is how I always pronounced it when I was
really in the books back in the day.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Sure, so sure that makes sense. I mean he probably
was riffing off with that word for being honest.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Sorry, how do you say it again? Properly? Again? Careathon Koreathon,
thank you? So yeah, the creathon prophecies. Definitely, they don't
really mention the toting call. And it's like they don't
really mention the cleansing at all. Right, it's this thing
that had to happen.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
There is one line, but yeah, it's not a huge thing. Yeah.
He spends a lot of time thinking about why Calendar
can't be a real part. Like he's like, no, it's
it's a lie. It's a trap, and it's it all
hinges on how a man has to subject himself to
the will of a woman. When it's like, were we
not told early on that the most amazing feats of

(16:39):
the age of Legends were accomplished by men and women
working together. There's nothing about subjugation in the concept of cooperation.
Like this is such a again, quintessential toxic masculinity that
he has just imbibed to the point that he has
crystallized pure toxic masculinity.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
But if he was naturally in a circle to women
and he was a man, he would have control of
the circle, which is natural, clearly, But Calendar reverses that.
It's like, and that's why it's a trap.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
It's okay to not always be in charge, and it's
it's okay to sometimes be in charge. You just this
is not There is no biological necessity for you to
be in a particular position on the leadership scale of
a given situation.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
But you know, I mean, he's trying to seal the
Dark One's prison, and Lewis Thearren. Remember the women wouldn't
work with him last time on his plan.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
So now Rand's reaction is to not work with women
at all, be a cycle breaker, Rand God, And.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
I also like Lewis Theren. So we learn a little
bit about the Children Call. Right, So the Children Call,
I think were built to seal the Dark One's prison.
But Lewis Barren says the plan would not work. The
brute force would not contain him. All my plan harsh.
These weapons they created, they were too dangerous, too frightening,
No man should hold such power. So Lewis Theren himself,

(18:09):
in his previous life thought they were too powerful to
use and too dangerous. And that brute force, right, this
is this is the reasoning why the Children Call isn't
any good for sealing the Dark ones prison. Brute force
won't get it done.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, sometimes you need finesse Yeah, and that means that
bigger is not always better.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
And what they need is the true power. So they
need the Children Call. They don't know it yet, but
they need the fact that it's a true power, saw
ungry all and that then he can pull it through Morden.
So that's sort of the that's the key to the
last battle that they're trying to figure out here is
like why why do we keep needing the calendar as

(18:48):
opposed to the children Call? Seems like he would just
use calendar, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
And also I feel like the Children Call is something
that they made at the last minute, whereas Colandor was
a much more like artifact kind of thing even before
the end of the War of power. Like I don't know,
they feel in different classes.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Well, the origin of Calendor is very very weird to me, Right,
That's something that I feel like Jordan has never really
given us a straight answer on Children Call was built
like in an effort, group effort to that's a war.
That's a war effort, right, Like we know about that
Calendar was a mistake. Calendor was a they were making

(19:28):
as many powerful songreall as they could, and the Children
Call was a mistake and it had a flaw in
it and that flaw calendar, Calendar, Calendar was a mistake.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
Wait, it was a flawed prototype. I feel like I've
heard this.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
Before, not even a prototype. Just they were making song
real for the war effort, and this one was just flawed.
That's what we have from his statements.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
So Calendar and the Child on Call are both from
the War of Power?

Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, yeah, huh.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
I don't know. Oh well, I know, I know why
because I have the world isms. I always kind of
assumes Calendor was like, maybe not as old as the
Horn of Vulier, but still significantly older than the War
of Power. H hmm. Interesting you're saying this, and now
I'm like, I feel like I have heard this before.
This is not truly new information, but I completely forgot

(20:19):
so it might as well be new.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Huh. I believe Children Call was made later, Calendor was
made earlier.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Right, The children Call was like what completed in the
last days of the war or something like that. It
was yeah, the final So yeah, again, why is Calendor
the one that gets to be in the prophecies? What
makes it special? There was apparently a lot of war
effort to on Grill that could have been for that.
What about Calendor? Makes it worth.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Being this one would assume the flaws right, One would
assume that the problems that happened by total accident, as
far as we are aware in the making of Calendor,
which are one that it lets it literally lets you
take control of the man using it, if you're one
of the two women, and two it's a true power song, real,

(21:10):
not just a one power song reel. Both of those
seemed to be accidental as far as I can tell.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
So you're telling me that the fate of the entire
world and all the prophecies and all of the everything
rests on a manufacturing accident. Severin, we have all this
work that goes into these bloodlines and these family relationships,
and of this one blood raised by this other blood.

(21:41):
It is so important that these five kids that save
the world are all related one way or another. But
also it was a manufacturing accident that made all these
prophecies possible. Like which is it?

Speaker 1 (21:53):
Ah, I mean, don't forget it was preserved, right, Like
the women who created wud In had calendar and put
it in the stone of tear and put all those
words around it to protect it for him specifically, right,
Like so much of it was set up by that
group of is said, I.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, but also just a completely random accident is integral
to the entire thing. I guess that's how the world works,
but I don't.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
Know that's how specifically, how severean works.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
I could do with more random accidents in my cast.
I wish the cast was less all from the same
friend group. But whatever, it's fine, that's just me.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
So he sort of tells them, don't defend guard this
place no more. There's nothing here of worth. I'm not
sure there ever was. And it's sort of this repudiation
of everything that went on in the stone, right, his
whole taking it over and going there and his realization
that he had to be the dragon reborn and taking

(23:10):
the stone was proof that he was the dragon reborn,
and like all of a sudden, calendar was this token
that he had that was going to help him win
the last battle. And he's like, I just I don't
think that's the case anymore. And it's just real depression around,
like I don't care anymore whatever, it's all gone to
shit anyway, you know, he doesn't believe anymore.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, He's like, well, the destination so far as shit.
So I guess the journey is also shit, right. He's like,
everything I've done, everything I've accomplished, everything I've learned, it
didn't get me to where I want to be right now.
So it's all trash.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
And he's saying the prophecies they're gonna do what I'm
not going to have any choice. I'm just going to
do what prophecies say. It doesn't matter how hard I try,
it doesn't matter what I care about. The prophecies would
see that he did what he was supposed to do.
They were more manipulative, more dev than any ice, tod Eye.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
I mean, I think the prophecies are kind of what
you make of them. You know, I'm really with Tam
on the it doesn't matter what situation you have in
front of you, how you respond to it is something
that you can control and can make all the difference. Like,
I'm really with Tam on that. And yeah, when Randon
is like, well, they're more manipulative than an ice to die,

(24:22):
it's like, or they're more helpful than an ice to die,
Like there's so many ways of looking at the prophecies,
and they're manipulative. Seems like a bit of a projection.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, a little bit, but he's feeling very trapped, like
he feels like he doesn't have options. He feels like,
you know, he has a couple of failures under his belt.
He had a string of successes, and then the first
time he meets real obstacles where he can't actually get
it done, he kind's kind of crashing out. He's like, no,
it's not worth it.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
It's like, failure is a part of life, my dude.
We all have to fail at stuff in order to
like have a life worth living. Like, yeah, you're, you know,
a demi god meant to save the world, but like
you're still gonna make mistakes, and yeah, trying to resurrect
a child who's very definitely dead is a mistake. That
was a bad call, but like, you only hurt yourself.

(25:14):
You know, you didn't hurt the little girl. She was
already dead, so you know it's okay to continue to
live after that. But also remember that it's a funny
callback when he's thinking back to that time, because it's
you know, as a meta of readers, we know that, ah, yes,
back when Robert Jordan thought it would be a trilogy.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, yeah, he was so insane back then, because yeah, Yeah,
he thought it most he was doing three more books.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, and it's just like we are returning to that
level of insanity because we are finally at the last
three books.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
He's started thinking bad things about the Borderlanders. The last
battle loomed, and he spent what little time he had
writing to meet with people who insulted him. And he's
just like, it's just negative thoughts all around.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
I mean, I get the frustrat like, I get it,
like you're trying to like psych yourself up for the
end of the world, and there's people who want to
play politics. Like, I get the frustration, But I think
I should actually firebomb their army is just not a
next thought.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, And he's basically thinking, like, instead of going a
meeting with the Borderlanders, I'm just going to finish off
the shawn Chaan. I've got the children call. It's a
better tool, right. The calendar failed me. That's how I failed.
You know. That was back in What Path of Daggers,
right when he lightnings the shawn chan and essentially wipes
out his own army, and he's like, no, screw that,

(26:35):
I'm just going to go there by myself. So's nobody
on my side I can hurt, and I'm just going
to bail fire everybody, and I'm going to use the
children doll because I've used a tiny fraction of its
power to take out Natrum's barrow, so i can just
do that a bunch.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, I'll just delete the essentially the continent. Yeah yeah,
And it's like how many times has he done this? Well,
I got a bigger, better tool, so I'm gonna go
blow up the army and then it never works. And yeah,
he says he's gonna take the maidens this time. I'm
sure that would make such a big difference if he'd

(27:10):
actually followed through with this plan, which he doesn't because
of what happens with Tam. But you know, at least
he was gonna bring the maidens. He finally learned that lesson,
not that it would matter now.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
So yeah, as he's gathering the maidens and ready to
go and just be like, Okay, I'm going to take
out the Sean Chan, I guess he's gonna bring the
maidens so he might be able for them by accident,
but okay, whatever, he's using the better tool, so he
thinks he's safe, and that incomes Tam, right, like that's
the whole like surprise that God Swayne has been planning
for him that I neve helped with.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah, well, I mean it's more like incomes rant to
the room that TAM's been waiting for him, and but yeah, yeah,
he goes stomping off to prepare to go to war
in the middle of the night and there's a surprise
Dad in the room. Surprise Dad.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
And uh, you know if you thought that herein was
a blast from the past, this is Tam.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Who we've seen a little bit interacting with Paren, right,
So it's it's nice that we don't just like have
a Tam that we haven't seen in eight books or
ten books or whatever. Right.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah. It is funny how we as the readers are like,
oh yeah, yeah, Tam, we've seen him recently, and it's like,
oh right, Rand, you haven't seen him since like chapter five.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Of book one, right, yeah, and you haven't seen him
awake since you know, he got since the attack.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah yeah, right, Yeah. He gave him a little bit
of advice before going back to sleep that night, like
that's it. And yeah he and just like with you
know what, we've seen this over and over again, Tam
is comfort. Tam is a rock. Tam is solid, and
Rand cannot do solid. Rand is quandy or he can't
do regular earth. That's silly.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
No, And so there's this this interaction between the two
of them, which I really like, and it feels like
it's helping Rand until the moment when he finds out
that Tam was sent by cod Swain. And then something happens,
right like, hmmm, I don't know how to describe this

(29:12):
interaction and how it turns. I was, it's like a
moment when it feels like his own kin betrays him
to him.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, it's because Tam didn't come on his own. Yeah,
that's what does it for him, because you know, and
Tam describes it to Ninieven Katswain later, like I was
saying everything you had told me to say, and then
I decided to go off script, and that's when things
changed because it didn't seem like Rand was responding the

(29:42):
way I would expect him to to the stuff that
you had prepared for me. So I decided to go
off script. And that, you know, that was what Tam
attributes the change to. But I think it's really obvious
on the page it's the fact that Tam didn't seek
Rand out. Is where that betrayal comes from, the fact
that Tam is there and providing the hope of comfort

(30:04):
is the machinations of ice to die. That's what feels
a good a shock because then if he does reach
for Tam and unfold him in a hug like he
wants to, that's what the eyes said I wanted. And
that's like the only constant in Rand's mind for a
year or more now is don't do what the eyes
did I want?

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah, And so okay, let's talk about the interaction between
Brain and Tam before we get to the breaking point,
because there's a lot of force what I would call
foreshadowing for the next couple of books. Because Rand is
in the future, right, Matt and Parrin's storyline through the
next book happens in parallel with what's going on with
Rand right now.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Right, or what's been happening over the course of this book.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, right, right, So all the visions that Rand has
in this chapter and all the information that Tam conveys
actually hasn't happened to those characters yet. So it's kind
of foreshadowing in this book. What's going to be happening
with them.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah. So we start out with Tam being the kind
of person who has a better time talking when he
has something to use his hands on, which like Mood
and Rand learns that, you know, despite the fact that
he didn't send messages to the Two Rivers, Tam still
heard about all of the armies because you know, Rand
is still trying to protect the Two Rivers, so he
didn't send directly to them for soldiers. But of course

(31:22):
Paren had taken all of the soldierly people and gone
on the road, so it wouldn't matter which.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Kind of defeats them. He's like, oh, well, now you're
involved in the war, which I was trying to protect
you from, but.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Right, right, And then we get the update about Elaine's mother,
which it's funny because as readers, we know about the
fact that she's more Gaze, but we haven't seen Paren
and company learn about information, right, So to have Tam

(31:52):
be that casually like oh yeah, yeah, we had a
whole thing with the white Cloaks and with more Gaye
coming out as more Gaze and like there was a
whole thing anyway, And you're as a reader like, wait, yeah,
I miss that. Yeah, no, what, Yeah, I would remember
if paren suddenly was faced with bourgaze. That seems like
that'd be a memorable scene. And yes, yes it will
be in the next book.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
M that's that foreshadow Foreshadowing is not really the right word,
but I don't know what else you use.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
It's not foreshadowing because it's not in the plot. It's
like meta foreshadowing. It's words like he's just telling you
what's going to happen in the next book really plainly.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
It's more like he wrote both scenes and thought he
would have this one and have that in this book
and just couldn't include it and ended up cutting it
in different ways.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, yeah, we can take that trip from Spodoinkle a
cross shadowing.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah, I like that Spodoinkle.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
We need a term for this because I think it's
a very specific to Brandon Sanderson writing these three books
sort of things. So there's not going to be a
word for it, so we have to come up with
our own.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
Jordan had some time sink things as well, right, the
rooster crowing for the bubble of evil, right, the Winter's Heart,
you know when just start like that whole Oh god? Yeah, yeah,
So like this is not an unusual thing for him
to do. This is just a slightly different way of

(33:12):
doing it, but it's it's through the visions that Rand
is having and through the information that Tam is conveying.
And that's like the sirly colors is definitely something that
Jordan had put in there, and it is a good
way to provide a different sink across all the different timelines.
But yeah, I don't think I realized the first few
times I read it just how much we had missed
of parents timeline and how much catching up we had

(33:34):
to do because we have we go through all the
parents timeline before he witnesses Rand's moment on the mountain,
which happens at the end of this book, right.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Right, So yeah, then Rand says, you know, we really
shouldn't spend our time talking about the news, even though
I mean, honestly, that's what family does when they get together,
as they exchange news about their acquaintances. It's kind of
the point, but whatever, and they have this whole moment
where TAM's like, wow, you really a king, and also

(34:02):
you do know you're adopted, right, That's that's a thing
we should probably address, And Rand says, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm a completely different person now, you know, my boyhood
self died. I'm gonna treat you like an honored uncle
or something. It's just this whole awkward king thing. It's cute.
It's really cute to see Rand in his full emperor

(34:25):
Rand mode. But just how weird that looks against his father,
who has changed so little, and like that incongruity just
makes it all feel small and farm sized. It's cute.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
It's cute. And also like whenever I go home, whenever
I see my parents, I feel like I'm a teenager again.
It doesn't matter how old I am. There's that moment
where it's like, oh my god, I'm just which is
not always the healthiest thing in.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
The world, but it's very real, but it's very.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Real, and for Rand it is you know, it's this
moment where he's like, I want you to call me son,
you are my father, and like he's sort of retreating
into this formality that he doesn't really know how to
get out of because he's that's how he's been treating
everyone around him, and all he wants is the comfort
of his father and he can't ask for it. And

(35:13):
that's and that's where you get this line the quiet
voice in his heart was screaming.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Which good line?

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, and I just in line even line before that.
If it were known that the dragon report Reborn relied
upon the strength of a shepherd. Rand is a shepherd.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
That's what I was thinking that, Rand, you have no
other strength, right, you are a shepherd. That is your strength.
I mean you have other strengths, but like that, that
is who you are because of Tam And you know,
in post Fans of Gold, he says, Tam is the difference.
Being raised by a shepherd really really helped.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
And all of Rand was a shepherd. So his strength
comes from being a shepherd, right, Like that's truly his foundation.
So it's like, yeah, no, it's the irony in that
statement is, oh my god, what if people knew. What
if people knew, right, maybe they might like you more, Rand,
they might.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Like you more, right, And it's it's also reminds me
of like the two want thing where she's like, well,
I don't know if he could have been born, you know,
an impoverished rural shepherd, because he carries himself like an
ivory tower aristocrat. Yeah exactly, exactly. So there's just all
these layers of like no, no, no. The shepherd thing

(36:24):
is what makes him who he is. The strength of
a shepherd is what has always been shining through with him.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
No, and this is just awkward, Like I wasn't sure
if I should have hidden the fact that you were
adopted and rans like you have done well, my my,
you have protected me from death by okay, Oh I'm
glad I did it. Then I guess that was the

(36:53):
right thing.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
When Tam calls him my lord, I just want dagger
fall through the foor, like, oh my god.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
Yeah, the world owes you a debt. I will see
that you're cared for the rest of your life. I
appreciate that, my lord, but it isn't necessary. I have
what I need right, like what you do. Tam doesn't
need taking care of. He's solid. He's Tammed.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
He's like a lieutenant in Paren's army. He's the right
hand man of the mayor of the two rivers. Like
he's gonna be fine. But you know, I get the distance, right.
Rand is doing his king thing because that's what gets
positively rewarded for the last year and a half of
his life. Is acting like a god emperor King Despot

(37:37):
and his father is like, son, what in the good
goddamn are you doing?

Speaker 1 (37:43):
I do like that. They talk about blade then they
retreat into basically sports for dudes, right, which is sort
of fighting.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Oh my god. And then they turned to sports because
of men because oh my god, I didn't even think
of it like that, but you're so right.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
So Rand's like, are we really a blade master? And
so we get a little bit of backstory there, right,
Tam says, I killed the man who was one, did
it in front of witnesses. I've never forgiven myself for it,
though it needed doing.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
I'm assuming of Valda esque situation, a Valda and Galade
esque situation where a man needed to you know, do
a trial beneath the light, duel to the death thing,
and it was for you know, a bad thing.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
I feel like we've had theories on who Tam fought.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
We've had theories that Tam could have like who Tam
could have killed during the AEO War. It's kind of
during the IEO War.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
Right.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
He doesn't give us any more context here.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
Because I'm pretty sure Jandwin killed Layman.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
We made that head canon, Yeah, it had his real dad,
not his adoption right.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Not his adopted dad. And so for a while I
was thinking maybe it was was Layman, right, because Layman
was a sword master and had a hairnd mark sword, right,
and the whole it needed doing would kind of point
to like killing Layman to end the war. And it
would be kind of cool if Tam turned on him
and killed him and that's what ended the war.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, but I feel like that scandal would have probably
made the news rounds though.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
Agreed. I agreed, And I think it makes much more
sense for Johndwin to be the one who did it.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, only one of his dads can kill Layman. Lama's
only got one life to give, and.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
That's what john Win was off doing when Rand was born, right,
That's why he wasn't.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
There, right, right, That's why he wasn't there to protect
m Shay.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
And whereas all Tam was there that's how he got Rand, right,
So he wasn't off the right Yeah, yeah, gentlemen. So
and he probably had the hair and marked sword for
a while before that moment, is what I'm thinking as well,
because that's kind of the moment when he left service.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, right, he left after the because he had a baby.
You can't be a soldier and have a newborn baby.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Right right, And it was the end of the war,
so that would make sense that that's when he would
leave service, right right.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
He's got a wife and a baby, and there's the
war is over, so he's got his war pension and
whatever war wounds he's accumulated, like yah, it's time to
go home, raised to back.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
But so, but my assumption would be he had the
hair mark blade for some time before that.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
I would assume that tam got his hair and Mark
blade fairly early on in his sword career. I bet
he was a pretty quick study and a natural at it,
and achieved the rank of blade master long before he
achieved his overall reputation that culminated in his presence in
the Ieo War.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
The only other clue I have is I thought he
fought in the White Cloak War, right, so I was
thinking that maybe it was one of the White Cloaks
that he defeated.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
I don't think there's very many White Cloak blade masters
because they're all thumb masses. I mean, Valda was what obviously,
but like.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Walda, pedron Nile was one wasn't he before he was
uh old?

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Probably?

Speaker 1 (40:52):
I actually don't know if he was a blade master.
He was one of the great generals. I don't know
if he was a blade master.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yeah, probably Gallad, well Gollad because he evolved. So again,
the numbers are not really going up with that. But no,
I just imagine some you know, lordly person who was
also really good at sword play, but you know, accosted
a regular peasant and tam stepped in, and one way

(41:16):
and another he ended up with a blade master's sword
because he's honorable and talented. And then probably after that
was like I guess I got to go into a
military service.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Well because he was a guard and tyr he's part
of the Companions. So one wonders like maybe he stepped
up he was a normal guard and he like fought
someone to protect the king, took down a blade master
when he really shouldn't it wasn't you know, thought that
the normal guard would be able to do that, and
then that got into the Companions. Right, is that moment
of her heroism where he took down a blade master

(41:45):
to protect the king? Right? Ok?

Speaker 2 (41:48):
No, could I could see that where he throws himself
into the line of fire and ends up you know,
heroically rewarded and honored and traumatized. I could see that
because he says he never forgave himself for it, so
you know, clearly that was traumatizing. Even if he seems
to have shrugged off most of the war trauma, like,
he's not entirely unscathed.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
And you know, probably the noble he ended up saving
was probably a piece of shit, right, because you know,
want taren noble, right.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
Tyron nobles. I wouldn't protect them, but you know, he
was getting paid, so you know, you do your job.
Maybe don't have that job, but you know, whatever.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
The prequel I want. You know, the adventures of Tam
and Jane Fearstrider.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Seriously, seriously they meet in a bar once in the
middle of the book, and the rest of the time
they're having completely separated shies.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Absolutely absolutely, but somehow those adventures are always related across
time and space.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah, totally, totally all right. So then yeah, Tam tries
to be like man, life is strange, isn't it, And

(43:02):
Rand's like nihilism. I can't see the beauty and the
strangeness absolutely unacceptable.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
You know, and Tam is kind of making the point
of like Rand's saying, Hey, my fate is chosen for me.
I have no choice, and TAM's like, yeah, but even
if you had a choice, you would still do the
right thing, So why does it matter? And Rand is
just not getting it. He's like, ah, I don't want
to have to do the right thing, And TAM's like,
but you would do the right thing because I know
you and I know who you are, and I don't

(43:30):
know why you're hung up on this like you have
to do it thing when like, exactly, it doesn't matter.
You would do the right thing anyway, and like you.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Do have a choice to not be absolutely grumpy and
repressed about all your emotions while you do the thing
you know you're gonna do, right, Like it's fine to
be the grumpy ego going on your stupid health walk sometimes,
but that's not supposed to be your way of life.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
And He's like, hey, I think you probably can survive this, right,
I think the pattern owes you. And Rand's like, no,
there's no way when we of course he's gonna survive it, right,
He's just gonna get a different body.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Right, And it's more importantly he has to go into
that fight believing he can survive, Like that mindset matters
more than if he survives or not. And it's you know,
Tam gets it right, Like I mean he came out
of a war able to have a wife and child
and you know, be a well adjusted person, right Like
he knows it's possible to live through a war, both

(44:25):
literally and figuratively. So he's like, Rand, do you very
much have the opportunity to yes, and this to tuck
your knees and roll and like get through this. You
don't have to just like walk headfirst into a wall.
You can be smart about this. You can be adaptable.
Rand is like, how dear, in classic teenager fashion, I

(44:45):
know what I'm doing? Oh, Like this was me being
taught how to drive a car, like always like I
know what I need to do. I'm learning how to
drive a car. I have no idea what I need
to do. But it's more important to tell your parent
to you go away than it is to actually hear
what they have to say.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Parents know nothing, absolutely not when you're a teenager. I
don't know. I don't know why parents get so dumb
when you're a teenager.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
It's like they just the between the age of ten
and twenty parents become really stupid. Yeah yeah, and then
once you turn twenty one they start to make a
little bit of sense again. And like, I do get it,
Like being conscripted for a war sucks. I get that,
but like, still, you can choose how to face it
and how to move through it. And Rand is choosing

(45:30):
the worst way anyway.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
And he's seen so much death around him. It's like, dude, like,
ever since Ingtar sacrificed himself, I feel like you should
have more perspective around.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
This, right, I mean, even tam here says like the
soldier who does for money and the soldier who dies
for loyalty are both dead, but there's a difference between
them when death meant something the other didn't. Ing Tar
exhibit ing Tar right, like, yeah, you've seen this over
and over again, that a death can mean something yet
somehow not for you, which I mean, I guess very neurodiversion.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
Right.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
Everyone else can have trauma and I can be gentle
with them, but I need to be perfect and not
have any response to the traumas I've experienced. I guess
that's kind of where he's at.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
And Also, it's like, how do you want people to
remember you? People remember you as this angry, grumpy hard man,
or you want them to remember you as someone who
cared about them and wanted the best for the people
in his life.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Yeah, Like, you claim to miss a Lane, but could
you please be someone that Elaine would miss?

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Right? Right? That's funny how this? So every once in
a while, I start talking to my coworkers, and I'm
now of an age where some of my coworkers are
now much younger than I am, right, Like, they're in
their early twenties. I'm in my early forties. There's a
twenty year gap there, like, And sometimes they have questions
and I start talking and I'm like, holy shit, I

(46:52):
do sound like that old man who's like, well, but
it's crazy. I was the age of Rand, and now
I'm much closer to the age of Tam. Because TAM's
not that old, right, That's the thing He's like, is
he even late forties early fifties, like because he was
young when he found Tam Rand? Right? Or was he
like thirty when he found Rand? That's what I think.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
He ran away from home as a young man and
came back many years later with a wife and baby. Okay,
and it's now been twenty years since he came back
with a wife and babies. So if he ran away
at say eighteen, and then was away for like decade years, yeah,

(47:34):
ten even ten years, then that's twenty eight and then
another twenty years as forty eight. So yeah, I think
early fifties is probably a pretty realistic age for him. Minimum, Yeah,
minimum somewhere in his fifties, I think is probably the
pocket for him. So yeah, not that much older than you.
You're You're definitely closer to Tam than Rand at this point.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
Right right, Let's see if we have an actual age
on the wiki dated birth nine forty, so he's sixty.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Okay, okay, yeah, for closer to twenty years.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Yeah, he ran away in nine fifty six, so he
was sixteen when he ran away.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Oh wow, Yeah, there's a tragic backstory there. I don't
know why a sixteen year old boy would run away
from an idyllic home life.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
You know, and he's got no family right left, he
comes back with no family, He's got a farm.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
An old family farm. Generations of work have gone into it.
But and then we get to the real well, First
of all, we get this great line from Tam kings
don't wine, they deliberate, which I think is fantastic. I
don't know who he's paraphrasing, but fantastic. But then he
gets to the real crux of this whole everything, why

(48:47):
do you go to battle? The why is what matters.
That's the core of Veins of Gold, That's the core
of the purpose of free will in the actual Last
Battle Dark One confrontation, the why is what matters. Why
you go to battle or don't go to battle in
the case of the Tuathon, right like, why you do

(49:10):
something is all that matters really in life.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
And then you know, Tam kind of mutters under his breath, God, damn,
you're bad. I wish Codswayin had said something earlier, and
that snap sets him off. Yeah, not the the word
right now. Is it possible that he's just losing the
argument and he doesn't want to do it anymore, and
the first thing that sets him off. I don't know.

(49:36):
Maybe he goes off a little hard because he doesn't
like what he's hearing from Tam, but I think it
is mostly the just cod Swain.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
I mean, I think maybe he goes off hard because
he likes what he's hearing from Tam, and now he
knows that Kad Swayne's poisoned that well, so now how
much of what he'd just liked hearing was actually Kad
swayin m hm. Yeah, So that that just sets randof
and his rumination spirals snap into a straight line.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
And I think this is the and part. His emotions
seeing Cam were so strong they had worn away the ice.
Too much affection was like too much hatred. Either one
made him feel which was something he could not risk.
And I think that when you look at cod Swain,
that's sort of what she's been doing. She's been sort
of making him hate her in order to keep his
emotions up right. Both of those are breaking his hardness,

(50:21):
because his hardness is all about not showing any emotion.
Cod Swain her plan that it's like, why is she
such a bully? Right? Why is she so annoying? She's
trying to make rand hate her like that is literally
what she's trying to do. She's succeeding. And then this
is the opposite of that, right, this is someone who's
making him feel overwhelming love and comfort, and that's breaking

(50:43):
him in the other way. And it's kind of like
flexing a rod back and forth, right, make it feel love,
make it feel hate, make it feel love, make it
feel hate. You're gonna break it and it's not gonna
be hard anymore. And so yeah, I feel like this
is just this is if I've come to a conclusion
that if Codswayin actually had a plan, it's that distress
him in those two ways is to make him feel

(51:04):
annoyed and then to make him feel loved, and just
to make him feel it.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
To make him feel like she wanted him to be
anything but flat and emotionless. And yeah, she really laid
it on hard with the spicy on the one end.
And yeah, the snap back here is, you know, I
think she may have miscalculated the load bearing capacity of
the structure.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Yeah, yeah, I think she should have done more of
the making him feel loved part of that.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, well, probably she would have if Min had opened
up sooner. Probably Min was her first choice for the
Love Avenue. But yeah, Rand handles this very badly. He
is so unused to having his emotions be in control
that he goes from I must be iced to fuck you,
I will burn the world down in like half a page.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Well, here's why I think is most interesting. Right as
he's channeling, the void shattered, but somehow sideine remained, which
is whenever the void has gone away, he's lost control
of the power as well. And so that's I think
really interesting that, like he's controlling the power inside his
emotions as opposed to being separate from them, and that's
never been something he's been able to do before.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
I mean, I need does it all the time? Well, yes, yeah,
you know it is possible.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
It just shows you, I think how insane he is
because he's basically being nuts about the way he's channeling.
He's channeling in an insane way because he's never been
able to control his whole hold on my dog is
definitely destroying something valuable right now. Yeah, just chewing up
some of Never's childhood artwork. Ah boy, Like yesterday he

(52:45):
was totally calm. Most days he's totally calm, but today
he's clearly been wanting attention during the recording, and the
second I shut him out, he got frustrated and went
and destroyed something. Rather than putting you, I should have
put him in his grate or let him in, not
let him want to the house freely, but not have
access to me. That's when he goes nuts.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
Ugh, what a needy baby.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Yeah, he's a very needy baby. He's very sweet, but
he definitely has some frustrations and some issues around abandonment.
But yeah, no, it's been like good. It was totally
my fault. Yeah, there's definitely a level of managing him.
He's not being punished for chewing up the thing. It
just got taken away from him.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
All right, So where are we? Yeah, we're talking about
you dog.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Just him ranting about Codswayne for a while. She manipulates me,
and she manipulates you. Everyone ties their strings to me.
Rah right, Like he's absolutely in crash out load.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Yeah. Yeah. The line he had lost control but he
didn't care. They wanted him to feel. He would feel
then is like, oh no, like I've I've tipped over
that edge of like I've been being so good and
now I have no patience left. So all of the
things I was shoving down are now coming out. Like
obviously I've never had the power to destroy people with
my mind, but like I feel this, Oh you don't

(54:10):
want me to feel well, or you wanted me to
feel and I wasn't okay, fine, I'm gonna do it now,
like I empathize with this at a soul level.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
And then I think, I just want to read this
out for this chapter.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Yeah did it?

Speaker 1 (54:20):
Screaming at them all, he wove threads of air and fire.
Lewis Darren howled in his head. Sidine tried to destroy
both of them, and the quiet voice inside Ryan's heart vanished.
A prick of light grew in front of Rand, sprouting
from the center of the access key. The weaves for
bail fire spun before him, and the access key grew

(54:41):
brighter as he drew in more power. By that light,
Rand saw his father's face looking up at him. Terrified,
What am I doing? Ran began to shake the bail fire,
unraveling before he had time to loose it. He stumbled
backward in horror. What am I doing? Rand thought again,
No more than I've done before. Lewis Theren whispered. Tam

(55:04):
continued to stare at him, face shadowed by the night
oh light, Ran thought, with terror, shock and rage, I
am doing it again. I am a monster. Still holding
tenuously to Sidine, Rand wove a gateway to Ebudar. Then
duck through fleeing from the horror in TAM's eyes. Rough yep,

(55:24):
don't there's something about that voice disappearing and then like
Rand realizing what he's doing, almost like that voice comes
back into Rand somehow.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
Yeah. Yeah, it's like he's been pushing it outside of
himself and it has now finally slipped back inside and
is his voice again or something or something?

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah, or he lost it and he's just had a
moment of realization that when he hit rock bottom that
he stopped himself. I don't know. I don't. Yeah, there's
there's because he doesn't have the realization then, right, he
has a moment where he's walking around he's still planning
on destroying Abu Dhar.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
Yeah, I know, he has like two more crisis moments
before he actually comes to the conclusion.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
So he's clearly just in crisis and he's he's almost
started his walk about in the beginning of this chapter
when he's walking through the stone and like he's just
encountering different things on this walk. He encounters Tam, he
encounters the Sean Chan, he encounters and then he goes
and thinks on the mountain like this, I feel like
this that whole internal monologue is the beginning of Veins

(56:29):
of Gold. As he's thinking about the use of calendar,
He's thinking about all those sorts of things like this
is the beginning of the thought process, you know, interrupted
by Tam and really spurred by Tam. Right, but it began,
this introspection began at the beginning of this chapter, and
that's one continual thought process that leads to Veins of Gold.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah, no, because Vans of Gold is just too big
to pack into one chapter. It's simply too big. You
need multiple chapters to really make the conclusion hit like
it should.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
These are the foothills of the mountain that is veins
of Gold, Yes, yes, and so yeah. Then we go
to Min and Kotswayne sort of talking Tam. Then later

(57:19):
comes in and being like, what did you do to
my boy? But this is a pretty short chapter.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
Actually, yeah, so I guess I'll read us in Yeah,
go for it, all right, Chapter forty eight reading the
commentary and our symbol is kad Swaine's hair ornaments, the
moon and stars. Min sat in Kadswayne's small room, waiting
with the others to hear the result of Rand's meeting
with his father. A low fire burned in the fireplace,

(57:43):
and lamps at each corner of the room lent light
to the women who worked at various busying activities embroidery, darning,
and knitting to keep their minds off of the weight.
Min was past regretting her decision to make an alliance
with Kadswayin. Regret had come early during the first few days,
when Katswain had kept men close, asking after every viewing
she had had about Rand. The woman was meticulous as

(58:05):
a brown, writing down each vision and answer. It was
like being in the White Tower again. Min wasn't certain
why Ni needs submission to Katswain had given the woman
license to interrogate men, but that was how Kadswain seemed
to interpret it. Mixed that with Min's discomfort around Rand
lately and her own desire to figure out just what
Kadswain and the wise ones were planning, and she seemed

(58:27):
to spend practically all of her time in the woman's presence. Yes,
regret had come and gone. Min had moved on to resignation,
tinged with a hint of frustration. Kat Swayin knew quite
a bit about the material Min was studying in her books,
but the woman doled out her knowledge like cloudberry jam
a little reward for good behavior, always hinting that there

(58:47):
was more to come that kept men from fleeing. She
had to find the answers Rand needed them, And yeah,
that's that's the situation as she is working on her
final pa HD research paper and she feels no closer
to the answer than when she started this dam degree.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
But I feel like it interacts a little bit with
the way Rand's thinking right where like he's like, ah,
the calendar is such a box and she's like, no, no,
but the prophecy says, you need it and we need
to figure out how you need it.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
And she's in there critiquing the PhDs who have come
before her, being like, I think they're misinterpreting this. I
think they're getting this wrong, and Kadsway is saying, yeah,
I agree, these guys are wrong about shit that is
very wrong. Like it's on the one hand, it's like, oh,
men's not original. On the other hand, if she is
the second person to come up with this critique after

(59:36):
Kadsway is good enough. It's like being the second strongest
channeler after Ninive. It's still pretty freaking good.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Well, and she takes it a step further, right, because
they later realized it's not even referring to Rand, right.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Yeah, there's layers to this.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
And I think the fact that the prophecy says hands
plural should be their first clue. Hmmm.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
I hadn't even noticed that. But you're right, you're right.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
He shall hold a laid of light in his hands plural,
and the three shall be one. Can't be randed, Yeah,
if he.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Has to be explicitly one handed by a different prophecy,
it does sort of imply that the But again, translations
are hard, right, it could be a mistranslation of the
plural versus the singular, and you have to include that.
It is a clue. It is a clue, but.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
I think it's referring to it's when Morden has the blade, right,
that's them taking control of Moridin in this situation.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Yeah, and they use him to use the True Power
to undo the bore.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
And the three shall become one. What do I think
the three are?

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
The three powers?

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Yeah? Yeah, side inside aar and the True Power.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Yeah yeah, they become one, seamless whole as they were
in the beginning before time. M h.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
And that's how you seal the dark One's prison, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
I like men's moment of thinking is all my study useless? No,
I have to believe that it is useful. I'm just
that's this is what I can do. It's like a
GWayne with her White Tower thing. It's just this is
what I've chosen to do, and even if I'm not
seeing results in this moment, it's still what I need
to be doing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
I thought it was interesting that all of these women
who had sworn themselves to Rand end up under Codswain's
control simply because they're not welcome around him anymore. And like, well,
if we're not welcome around Rand, what are we going
to do? And it's just like he's handing all his
power to Codswain simply by not being a good steward
of the women who have sworn themselves to him.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
And it's also interesting too, with what you were saying
in the last chapter about how she's in many ways
trying to be an antagonist to him, like very deliberately.
Like it does mean that she gathers all of the
women who are trying to help him but who he
can't stand kind of like how he uses a gwayn
to gather all of his opposition to breaking the seals.
I feel like KD. Swain is almost like using her

(01:01:46):
antagonism with Rand to make sure she also will have
control over all of his eyes that I would be allies.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Yeah, if you really want to help him, you're going
to help me, which means I will have control over
you and a short leash to keep you on which.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Ever, since the cleansing right where she was basically put
in charge of the field troops, it seems like, you know,
I almost wish he'd embraced her more as a field
commander of his troops of the isid eye like Green
explicitly put her in charge of your isid I who
have come to your side and sworn loyalty to you,
instead of this whole stealing. I think that would have
been a better way to use her in the story,

(01:02:22):
if he'd been just like, fine, you want control, you
swear I'm gonna put you in control of the III
that are. But then I feel like she'd have to
kind of swear to him somehow.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Which she would never do. And then there's all the
Isidaye Amarlin's stuff blah blah blah, meow. But yeah, she's
a green who's good at battlefield command. It would be
nice to see her used for that somehow.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
More than even a lot of the Reds right against
Channelers and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Yeah, I mean, if only because she's older and has
been doing this in the field for longer than most
of them have been alive.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Min wasn't certain why and I need submission to Codswayin
had given the woman licensed to interrogate men. But that's
how Codswayne Swayne seemed to interpret it. Any idea why.
It's just like, oh, you don't have anyone to protect
her anymore, I think is what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
I think that's what it is. Yes, And there's no
one of the Eyes to Die who will protect you
from me, and no one to give you reason to
think that you are right to resist me. So yeah,
Min can feel that Rand is in pain. She's not
quite putting together, you know why. But you know this
is he's talking with Tam and dealing with all of
that intensity. Is Ninive is pacing back and forth, and Min, then,

(01:03:30):
you know, says I think this passage is wrong, and
Bell Dyne is really passive aggressive about it. And it's like,
and Kad Swayne, you know, says, hey, Bell dying, you
have something caught in your throat. You want to you
want to share with the class. Bell It's like, oh, no,
I don't have anything to say. I just need to
make random snorting noises every time this child thinks that
she's good enough to do hard academic studies. And I

(01:03:54):
like how Kad Swayin just walks Bell Dine through embarrassing herself. Yes,
it's satisfying that Kad's is like, so that's your opinion, min,
I give your opinion exactly as much, if not more
way as Bell Dyne, who I gave seniority because she
is as to die. But that's the only respect she
gets anyway, Continuing with the conversation I found interesting, min

(01:04:14):
I appreciate that. I appreciate the put down that Bell
Dyne gets there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Yeah, I love this one. That is a very unconventional interpretation.
Belle Dyne smiled thinly, you know, thinking she's one because
she's like, you know, that's the teacher says, Oh, that's
an unconventional interpretation, you know. Turning back to embroidery of course,
god Swain says, you are quite right, and that's what.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Yeah, because it's Kat Swayin. Katswin always appears with the
unconventional interpretation. That's her entire career, and all of.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
The successful I said, I are the ones who had
lessons outside the tower and were unconventional.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Yeah, or who broke the rules and received very specific
rewards for doing so. Yeah, I mean, and yeah, Kat
Swayn says that line is why I'm here in the
plot at all. Like, yes, you have picked up it
in congruity, Good job man.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
So that's when they discussed that rand needs to use
it in a circle of three, which you know, yes,
but no, like because he does use it as air
as part of the circle. But then like he accidentally
gives it to Morden, Right, that's the little deception. He's like, oh, no,
you stole it from me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
Well, but Mordan would never have stolen it if he
wasn't genuinely using it first, right, Like that's part of
how he induces Morden to take it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Then we get a couple of men prophecies, right, we
get Ninive kneeling over someone's corpse in a posture of grief.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
I think that's Mordan's body that she or that's Rand's
body with Mordon's soule in it. I think that's the
nineve not getting it about the body swap.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
I think it could be a gwayn Oh, I know
there's no body, but like.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
But this is a Rand chapter. No. I think it's
her being mad about how she can't heal Rand's body
at the end and she keeps just dumping power into
it and it won't.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Because there is an actual body.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Yeah, she's like kneeling, She's like in the tent, like
crying and trying to get him to heal.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
And since she's not one of the three, she doesn't
know he's okay, right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
Right exactly though I think she does, you know, figure
it out because of the way their eyes don't twitch.
And then you know, stalks over to Avian to demand answers,
and that's the last wisie of her. And then the
black knife around bell Dine's head. No idea what that is?

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
What is? Yes, she dies in the last battle at
the field of Marilre, killed by sharons, so one would
assume her we see her order die. We don't see
her die, but her order is stabbed to death by sharons,
so one would assume she died by a similar.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Okay, so the black knife represents the Sharran attack, whether
literal or figurative, that's probably what that is. Okay, cool, cool, cool.
I would have guessed a blood knife, but you know,
the blood knives are also a very distinctive dagger, not
the right knife. So yeah, good knowing she dies by
the Sharran attack, that makes sense. And then yeah, Kat's
fan's being remarkably candid with men, and they're having a

(01:07:04):
really good little academic discussion, and then Tam barges in
to be like, what the actual fuck has happened to
my son? Which is the correct dadly response that you
would expect from Tam.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
Yeah, well, especially when like, hey, your name set him
off in a murderous rage? What why? Like why is
your name specifically causing him to go off in a
murderous rage? You have done something to him, because that
is not normal.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
And kat'swan says, I encouraged him towards civility. I'm sorry, Katswain,
but no, no, the three to Zer's should not be
allowing you to say that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
And I noticed that he the room got darker when
he entered. I feel like that's something that like Rand
doesn't notice, And we didn't see that from Rand's POV.
But here's Tam saying, you know, dude, like he has
this era of darkness around him. We've seen it in
the other chapters ever since he started channeling the true power.
Anyone with any sensitivity is seeing it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Yeah, exactly, Like Tam taught him the flame in the void,
he doesn't have to be a channel or to be
able to pick up on like the vibes just like
an O gear, right, like gets just an energy. Like, Yeah,
someone who meditates a lot is going to also be
a little more attuned. And Rand was not being subtle
with his vibe. This is not someone who's trying to
hide their darkness.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
No, No, he doesn't even know that it's there to
hide it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Right, exactly exactly, And then we see the flame and
the void from the outside. Right, Tam takes one breath
and then just the anger goes away. I've seen that
from the inside a million times, but this is one
of the only times we ever see it from the outside.
And then he yeah, reports on the meeting in a
much calmer fashion, but also not mincing any words, and

(01:08:46):
Kat Twins says, Okay, did you do all the things
I said that you should do? And Tam says, yeah,
and it didn't work. Yeah, because you don't know how
to talk to my twenty year old traumatized son that
you have been bullying for the past six months. I do.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
Oh, and I love love his response to her. I've
known men who, when channeled, always turn their to their
fists for answers. I've never liked eyes, tod Ie. I
was happy to be rid of them when I returned
to my farm. A bully is a bully, whether she
uses the strength of her arm or other means.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
And the audience stood up and shear, yeah, thank god.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
It's like when we call Codswayn a bully. It's not
it's like, yeah in Cannon Like Tam also is calling
her a bully, right, like, we don't just make that
up out of nowhere. She's a bully canonically.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
And he says that as she has lifted him in
the air in an attempt to intimidate him and to
stop telling her the truth that she needs to hear.
I don't like hearing that. I'm going to try to
scare you with my big scary eyes to die powers
and from the air he says, a bully is a bully,
do your worst. But yeah, I when Tam said that,

(01:09:52):
it just felt so validating for all of the bullshit
that I had gone back and forth about kat'sway and like,
is she a bully? Is she effective? Does he need
tough love? Does he need gentle parenting? Like? Is kat'swayn wrong?
Is kat swayn right? And then to have Tam, who
is amazing and perfect and can do no wrong come
in and say, now you're a bully and it's not

(01:10:14):
working was just like, okay, I know which side of
the fence. Ione finally, long last, I can stop waffling.
She is a bully, she means well, and she is
using horrible tactics to achieve her ends. I am decided.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
And they're all pointing, you know, fingers. TAM's pointing fingers
at her, and they're pointing nine needs pointing fingers back
at Tam saying if you'd listen, and Min goes no,
it's all of your fault because you're trying to make
him do stuff instead of supporting him.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Right, Like again, maybe listen to the person who knows
him best instead of to your own internal narratives about
what you think you should be, which does include Tam
because he's a parent, right, He's like, well, my little
boy should be x y Z, and Min is like
the one who's like, well, but the man is and yeah.
So the one two punch of yeah, of Tam and

(01:10:58):
Min being like, you're a bully and you all need
to stop making him do things is just the out,
the released outbreath of those two comments.

Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
And I think that's just the read out the last
few sentences of the chapter is all I have left.

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
Ah, yeah, we've cleared the air. Rand is insane, Katswain's
a bully, and Min is the only one in Rand's
corner truly all right? Read out? And what happened then?
Nineve asked he seemed to be distracted by something suddenly.
Tam said, he took that little statue and dashed through

(01:11:36):
the gateway. Kadswan raised an eyebrow, and did you see,
by chance where that gateway took him west? Min thought
far to the west. I'm not certain. Tam admitted it
was dark, though I thought what Ninive prodded ebudhar Min said,
surprising them all. He's gone to destroy the shan Chan,

(01:11:59):
just as he told the maidens he would. I don't
know about that last part, Tam said, but it did
look like a boudhar light. Preserve us, Correll whispered.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
And yeah, we continue to walk about in the next chapter.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Yeah, Rand has hit his nadar. He is running away
from his problems, and we will catch up with him
next week as he decides whether or not the last
hunt will happen.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
And I gotta say the next two chapters are pretty
short in terms of page count.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
Yeah, the sander Lanche is picking up speed.

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
It's definitely picking up speed, like lots and lots of
things are happening. The density is very, very high in
these chapters. Both of these chapters were load page count,
and yet we still manage to talk about them for
you know, nearly an hour and a half, so I
know it was a dense hour and a half too, So.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's dense. This is emotionally heavy
and there's a lot of conclusions that require processing.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
But yeah, basically I think we'll be and with too
low I think we should be able to get the
epilog in in the next recording, probably, yeah, because they're
just all very short, three short chapters, so I think
we should be able to squeeze in the epilog in
the next recording now that I look at it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Yeah, let's plan on that. Okay, and Podoca will be happy,
always egging us on to do more. I think we
should finish the book today.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
We haven't prepped before that, but yeah, no, we will
finish it next week.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
Yeah, this is very, very exciting. Thank you for listening

(01:14:35):
to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate and
review us on your podcast app and consider supporting us
on Patreon for ad free episodes. Watts Spoilers is a
production of Fox and Raven Media. For more podcasts from
Fox and Raven Media, visit our website at Foxendravenmedia dot com.

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The One He Lost & Reading The Commentary - The Gathering Storm chapter 47 & 48 - EP541

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The One He Lost & Reading The Commentary - The Gathering Storm chapter 47 & 48 - EP541