The Strength of This Place & Talk of Dragons - Towers of Midnight chapters 18 & 19 - EP555 - WoT Spoilers

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is the weeed of time.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Spoilers, poodcast, you're doing chapters eighteen and nineteen today.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Which, yeah, we'll get better as we go on. It
starts out about as weak as it's going to be,
and then it escalates to a much cooler ending than
it starts at.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm really happy that Paren at least gets some progression
in the dream world in this chapter, right, Like, we
keep seeing him go in and be like, I don't
know how to learn, and like, admittedly he relearns a
few things in this one, but he's actually making progress
for the first time, So I really like that.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Well, grant you that it is nice to see him
effectively retreading ground that we've already tread before instead of stalling.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
But still mm hmmmm, so I guess I should read
as soon.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
The strength of this place and our chapter header is
Hopper or the.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
Wolf, definitely Hopper.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
And the strength of this place is of course, you
are the strength, right this. The strength of this place
reflects the strength in you, your will.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
It's just a weave. Yeah, that's ultimately what this the
strength down to is, is just a weave.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
And I think that's why it's just a weave is
so effective is because there is so much build up
and working through in him, like discovering the world of dreams.
I think, you know, as much as it's a little
slow and we're like, come on, let's get along with
it already, there is a point where it's like, oh,
you know, he does spend all this time naturally accepting
the world of dreams in a way that Agwayne always
saw it as a tool. He sees it as like

(01:45):
part of him and part of the wolf.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
Well, because that's how Hopper teaches him to look at it. Right.
The wise ones have a very human centric, tool oriented
kind of approach, whereas parent learns it by being with Hopper,
who lives there full, it's a completely different approach.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Parrin ran through the darkness. Trails of watery mist brushed
his face and condensed in his beard. His mind was foggy, distant.
Where was he going? What was he doing? Why was
he running? He roared in charge, ripping through the veiled
darkness and bursting into open air. He took a deep
breath and landed on the top of a steep hill

(02:24):
covered with short, patchy grass with a ring of trees
at its base. The sky rumbled and churned with clouds
like a boiling pot of tar. He was in the
wolf dream. His body slumbered in the real world on
this hilltop with Fayeel. He smiled, breathing deeply. His problems
had not diminished. In fact, with the White Cloaks ultimatum,

(02:44):
they seemed magnified. But all was well with Fayeel. That
simple fact changed so much. With her at his side,
he could do anything. He leaped down from the hillside
and crossed the open area where his army camped. They
had been here long enough that signs had appeared in
the wolf dream. Tents reflected the waking world, though their
flaps were in a different position each time he looked

(03:06):
at them. Cook Fire pits in the ground, ruts in
the pathways, occasional bits of refuse or discarded tools. Those
would pop into existence and then vanish. He moved quickly
through the camp, each step step taking him ten paces.
Once he might have found the lack of people in
the camp erie, but he was accustomed to the wolf dream.
Now this was natural.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
It's natural. Well, just because it natural doesn't mean it
won't kill you, Karen paren.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Right, I mean, the natural forest is deadly, right, very I.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Mean less so here in the Pacific Northwest than it
could be in Saale, Australia, but.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
You know, yeah, well we still have our dangers for sure.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
It did meet a bear once.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
And even just things like I mean the number of
people who drowned in the local rivers is very high.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Or die of hypothermia because they can't find their way
out of the woods and they're wearing cotton and it's
getting dark.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, like it's it's it's very easy to get lost.
Then it's not so much the animals as just the
nature the world itself. The environment can be deadly to
get lost in.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, so anyway, less deadly than some woods, but still
deadly enough.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Woods are deadly, Like there's a reason there's always dark,
scary monsters living in the woods.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, running into a bear in the woods is like, oh,
I dislike this, I will be leaving now.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Or large cats, right, I know, we don't have a
lot of those up here, but like large cats in
particular are scary cats.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
I think, as far as I know, we've got plenty
of cats where I'm living, and yeah, they're scary because
they will actually stalk you in a way that a
bear won't a bear you will stumble into and go oh,
and then both of you will want to back away
from it, whereas a cat might literally stalk you for
food because you are close enough to deer sized.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
So isn't it crazy that the two scariest animals that
were just were like a pack of wolves and big cats.
And we're like, oh, yeah, we domesticated those and brought
them into our house.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
But we didn't domesticate lions or whatever, like no.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
But cats, yeah, you know, we made them small and
domesticated a breed of them. Yeah, they weren't rigging with wolves.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Little cats were little. But yeah, wolves is those dogs
are so scary. Even dogs are scary if they're in
a pack and they have a mind of their own,
you know, kind of made up outside of your human control.
Like dogs are scary wolves. How did we decide wolves
should be friends? I mean, I get it, but I
don't get it.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
We didn't they did they. I'm convinced they domesticated themselves
by eating our trash and just hanging out with us.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
True, and I mean to a certain extent, cats I
think started the same deal because they were like, look
at this buffet of rodents that you have created by
storing grain grain, Like you really can't stop the cats
from showing up, you might as well make friends with them,
I guess.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
I guess. Yeah, it reminds it reminds me of Pern, right,
because you have the dragon writers of Pern, where there's
these big wild dragons and then you have the small
domestication species that hangs out on people's shoulders.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
But they're like related, except that's the opposite in Pern. Actually,
the little ones are the wild ones. And then they
did genetic editing to make the big ones out of
the little ones.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
That's true, Yeah, they did.

Speaker 3 (06:14):
Technically, that's kind of a whole history the plot.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
But yes, the the big and the small, and but
they still like they still domesticate the wild ones.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
Yeah, and the intelligence levels are very very different, right,
Like the little ones are definitely little intelligence compared to
the big ones which have big intelligence. Anyway, back to
the book, Yeah, so yeah, Parens vibe and thinking about
the present, thinking about the past, doing woolfy dream things.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
He's scouting too. He's he's going into the White Cloak
camp and.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
He's scouting because Brandon Sanderson was apparently screaming this at
Robert Jordan throughout the entire fail plot.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Shouldn't he have tried something like this when Fayel was kidnapped,
he sent numerous scouts to Malden Light. He had understand
himself to marching off to find Fyela on his own,
but he'd never visited the place in the Wolf Dream.
Sanderson me, like, Jordan, why, yeah, Like it's just such
a plot hole. Why didn't he go?

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (07:05):
And it's just like because and I think what Jordan
here is saying there is he's so obsessed with the
world of a man and his wife that he's completely
forgotten about the Wolf Dream and doesn't think about it
and doesn't use it as a tool.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
But yeah, I just I hear little baby writer Sanderson
just screaming at Winter's Heart like and knife of Dreams,
just like why why aren't you doing it?

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Why?

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Then he got handed the pen and was like, I
will be addressing this.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, Like he's sending Ashamon to go scout, and it's like,
why aren't you doing it in the Wolf's Dream? Like see,
if you can like follow in the Wolf Dream, you
can move faster than any Oshaman. They don't have to
exhaust themselves.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
I guess you got to level up his intelligence from
negative one to zero.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
But it's I think it's a good plot point. I
think it's a good plot hole that Sanderson's pointing out, yes, right,
and like he's hanging a lantern on it. Remember that
phrase that we brought up last time and saying, yes,
I see that this was a problem. I see that
this could be a plot hole and people could be like,
why didn't you think of that? And it's like, oh, well,
you just have the character be like, oh, I should
have thought of that, and then you can move on.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
It is very economical.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Tell yeah, it's how you'd be like a lot of
plot holes, people like why didn't they just do this?
And you have your character be like, I didn't think
about it, because as an author, you didn't either.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
Which I mean human error is a very real factor.
And he has some pretty one on the nose thoughts
about the white cloaks, like the white cloaks like things
neat and orderly and tidy, and that's what's wrong with
their worldview. And also I have to deal with them
before I can move on.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
It's all very black and white thinking. And yeah, all
that stuff.

Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, it's all very labeled black and white on the page.
This is what is happening, and this is how parn
understands that there are shades of gray between black and
white extremes.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
One of the things he picks up is the signet
ring of the Lord Captain Commander aka Galad, and he
doesn't recognize it, but he memorizes it, and it's just like,
can we at what point is he gonna find out
who this fucker is? Right like?

Speaker 3 (08:57):
And doesn't he bring that design to ball were and
Balwar doesn't know it? Which I'm just like, absolutely not.
Balwer would know every single symbol that was associated with
Galla di Madrid. Obviously, yeah, obviously, obviously he's way too
important to the White Cloaks. Back in the day he
did the research. He has a complete dossier on Gallad.
Do you think he doesn't know what his signet ring

(09:18):
looks like?

Speaker 2 (09:19):
No?

Speaker 3 (09:19):
No, no, no no.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
My biggest problem with his plotline is how long it
fucking takes paren to realize it's cold.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
And I think it's all Sanderson screwing around on Ballwer.
Baalwer should have been what this should have been? It
this signet ring should have been the nail on the
coffin of Ballwer saying I know who this is, all right,
So now we interact with Hopper, and Hopper teaches Paren
the first actual lesson that Paren has learned in the wolfstream.
On purpose.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Ever, I think, oh, and you are here too strongly, right.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
This is the art of following, the art of being
able to track someone when they change locations. This is
very important in his fights with Slayer, right, being able
to hop location is vital to being able to deal
with the Hunter like Slayer.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Well, and it's the real moment where the tables turn
in their fight, right, because it's the first time. Yeah,
Parent gets the upper hand sometimes, but Slayer can always
flee if Parent gets the upper hand, right, and so
Paren has never been able to finish him off. He's
been able to fight, but he cannot follow. And so
this lesson of being able to follow Slayer when he flees,

(10:25):
which is something Slayer cannot do. Right.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
Slayer has a human sense of smell.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, right, right, and so, and there are other ways
to track somebody other than the smell from where they go.
But that's how Paren does it.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
He cannot imitate what Paren is doing. He has to
find some other way, and he's clearly not putting those
two dots together.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
And so that moment when Parent follows him for the
first time is the moment when Slayer essentially panics and
Parent wins. So that like this lesson right here is
the moment where he gets to beat Slayer. It's a
level up, yeah, for sure. And so yeah, Hopper just
disappears a bunch of times and finally says like, gives

(11:06):
an image and says, follow here. This is what we're
trying to say. Yeah, so you know, and I guess
at this point he still hasn't figured out how to
follow with the scent, does he actually, because he just
follows the image. I'm not sure he ever actually gets
the scent. I think he's still working on that.

Speaker 3 (11:19):
Well, he gets there eventually, but we have a classic
I can't teach you the skill because you have to
know it yourself sort of thing. Back and forth. Parent
picks up the smell thing eventually. I think you're right.
It doesn't happen here, but it's the beginning of that skill.
It takes him a while. He's sort of you know,
I have the tiger montages through developing the nuances of

(11:41):
the skill. But this is the inciting part of the lesson.
And then Hopper attempts to explain to him the whole
how to anchor yourself in the strength of this place
and how to modulate the strength of your connection to
this place, and he mistakenly identifies the two rivers as home,
and parent says, well, actually it's fy Ill and Hopper
sec fine, whatever works. I don't actually care, Like.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Whatever your anchorir is. You find an anchor, right, whether
it's your home, whether it's a person like I don't.
You're human, you figure it out right, But you need
an anchor, right.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
The point is you need Yeah, what's your core anchor
that will always bring you back to your body? Okay,
your wife? Great?

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Awesome? And I like the idea of holding something fragile
very tightly, yeah, right, where you have to like grip
it really hard because you can't drop it and someone's
trying to get away from you. But if you crush it,
you're going to destroy it, and so you have to
like you're here too strongly is basically you're gripping that
fragile egg too strongly. You're going to break it. But
you still have to like hold on really tightly to

(12:41):
that egg because Hopper is trying to knock it out
of your.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
Hands, right, right, exactly. It's a very very delicate balance
that you have to maintain through some pretty intense trials. Right.
That's the real thing of this is it's not just
the act of holding it. It's the act of holding
it while being hit by a wall, while being buffeted
by storm winds, while fighting a nightmare, while dealing with

(13:05):
all of those things. He has to be able to
modulate it within that and that is going to be
a skill he literally has to montage because it's going
to take a long time to learn. He should have
been learning this books ago.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Right in that moment he was there, he imagined solid
and real. He smelled the oats, the human air, alive
with the sense of dirt and light and fallen leaves.
You know, he's able to lock himself down by being
in that place. And that repeats a bunch of times, right,
Like this there's some philosophy, And like, I do enjoy
this interaction between Hopper and Parent. I think this is
a good Like it's just a fun read, right, I

(13:37):
don't really have much to say about it other than like,
I like the teacher pupil interaction that's going on here.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
Yeah, and I like the comment that he smells kind
of like Tam when Tam is training recruits, like the
older experienced battle leader being like, all right, you young pups
gather around. Here's how to not stick yourself with your
own sword, right, Like, there's a certain energy there in Hoppers,
and Hopper's an elder mentor, and you love to see it.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
And in the way that Paren is somewhat wolf, Hopper
has become somewhat human, right because he's learning to teach
the human way, which is explaining things and showing instead
of just oh well you already know this.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
Let me remind you right right, using an image, because
smell is clearly not what's leaping to Parent's minds. Like, yeah,
Hopper's learning how to think like a human enough to
reach Paren where parent is at.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
And parent doesn't have the ancestral memories, right, These wolves
have these ancestral memories where they never have to learn
anything in the wolf dream because their ancestors knew it
and they have those memories, which.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
Weird, but okay, it's the whole concept of instinct, I guess.
And then the last event of this POV is a
flicker of a dream spike, just a flicker. It turns
on and then it turns off again. I assume that
this is Mordan chucking it into the dream and then
letting grand all retrieve it. But I'm interested in your thoughts.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
I think it's just being test it. I think that
this is just Slayer testing it out because they're in
he's biparent, it's a pretty small thing. He's just being like,
oh it does this work? Yes? Or no? Right, like
can I turn it on?

Speaker 3 (15:12):
Okay? Yeah, either way. It's clearly a test because it
flickers on for like a whole thirty seconds and then
goes off again, and when we see it next it's
in a different location. But yeah, this is yeah, this
is the does this thing work? Test? And Hopper is like, ooh,
that gives me a very vague bell of sense of foreboding.

(15:32):
But anyway, I'm not sure about that.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
The Encyclopedia Watt is pretty firm that it's Slayer testing it,
but I'm not sure if that's a statement he makes
later or if that's just an assumption, because they're in
the right area.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
I mean, it's the simpler explanation either way, whoever's doing it.
It's clearly not the big install.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
This is just a test, and they didn't think like
just happen. You would either have to happen to be
making a gateway at that moment or paren happened to
be in the wolf stream to see it right. Both
of those things were pretty unlikely. Tabirin, it also is
he inside the bubble or outside of it? It doesn't
it's not exactly clear.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
He doesn't back away far enough to see where the
curve goes. He's too close to it, and.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
He doesn't look up to see whether it's in the
sky or not until it disappears.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
He says it extended up into the sky and distantly
to right and left, Like I think, he's just too
close and it looks like a flat plane. And so
then yeah, I'm ready to go to the next POV.

(16:43):
Which is a rare instance of a map in my book,
such a good map of the city and the city
of Maradon with the road to Chachin, the road to
bender ebon, the River Arnel, and the upper and lower
camp that is described to the north of the town
where Rhodal Ealda and his forces are currently being besieged.

(17:08):
It's very appreciated to have a map before a description
of a very geographically shaped POV.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
And it really does seem like they're basically on a
hill in front of the only entrance from the blight
into this area, right and so fortified. You have to
cross this hill, their fortified hill, and to get into
this area you have to climb up the front of
it and then down the back of it. And they're
basically camping on the back of the hill where they
can't be hit by arrows and fighting from the top

(17:36):
of it because the trolks have to climb up the
slope to get to the top, and so that's their
their elevated position.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, exactly. And it would be easier yet to actually
back up to the town, which has walls and all that,
but the people in the town won't let them in
because you're not legally here, which we know ultimately is
because there's actually dark Frends at the top of the
decision chain, but the current excuse is that you're hearing legally,
so we don't want you to defend us from literal monsters,

(18:03):
thank you, But he's just.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Like, I don't understand, why, why why are we not
being let in?

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Yeah, and the answer is dark friend ery, dark ferns.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
It literally takes a man going trader in order to
have good people do the right thing, which is awkward.
But for now he's fighting on top of the hill
and the trolks are trying to get over the river
up the hill, down the hill into the town. Right
that's the pathway, and they're like choking the river with
their bodies. It's really nasty and hard, and they've been

(18:33):
fighting for days and days. People already have lifelong injuries,
Like we've got the one guy wandering around on a
peg leg that was amputated a few days ago. Right,
Like we're deep into the battle at this point. Things
are already kind of borderline desperate. And this is the
freshest we're going to see a Giralda for many, many chapters, and.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
This is he's got You've got healing, right, so you
can heal an amputated lamb, but you can't grow it right.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
Right, You still have to get used to walking with
a peg leg in the middle of a war zone
and recover your physical energy from that healing as well.
It's it's tough, it's really desperate times. And again, this
is the least desperate they will be for many chapters.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
I mean a kind of head canon that the nine
level of healing has spread and so most of these
people are being healed without their energy being drained. That like,
we've moved beyond that level of Ah.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
No, now it's barely spread to the other Eyes to Die.
I don't think it's very effectively gotten to the aschamon.
I mean, I don't, but because they're the Aschemon's healing
is mostly what Flynn figured out. I think, like whatever
tame passed along.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, but wasn't that the because No, because remember Are
and Gar, Yeah, gave them hints, and he gave them
hints on how to do the healing without sucking out
the energy. So all their healing is to be gone.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
It's not the rough battlefield stuff that the Eyes that
I have had for you.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
Because they got it from Forsaken. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Nope, that's a good point. That's okay, so you've got
that much, but you still have the psychological burden of
dealing with the fact that you have a peg leg.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
Now oh, totally of having lost a limb.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yeah, I mean phantom limb, right, Like this's.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
And so they're being effective enough that the bad guys
have set up their siege equipment that they went for
the city to take out this fortified hill, which is
like a huge accomplishment because like a hill is not
you know, you're doing a lot of work if you're
able to stop them at a hill enough that they
have to break out the things that were designed for
city walls, right right, yeah, and so yeah, no, this
is Eteralda being an incredibly good general.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, he's a great captain. You see it here. He's
forced them to stop and set up their siege equipment
preemptively with I mean, yeah, total numerical disadvantage and all that.
And yeah, they start getting pummeled with dead bodies, which
is a thing that people have done in the real
world for psychological and biological warfare reasons. And Ialda thinks

(20:58):
that that's what's happening here. He thinks to just demoralization
and damage, and it is, and it is. They are
definitely achieving demoralization and damage. But it only takes a
few volleys before they get used to it, and they're
not super worried about it. And then six times the
number of objects are following through the sky and they're

(21:20):
all trackcar and that was very stealthy, that was very clever.
But the bodies all open their wings up and start
singing death songs at you.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Scary, And there's a fair amount of being in Eydralda's
head before that moment. He thinks about how the Ashman
he pushed them too hard and now he has to
let them rest. And when he's the one necessary, he's
thinking about how I was retreating towards Ara Doomont from
the south and now I've been teleport north and I'm
retreating towards Arao Domon from the north.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
And always retreating towards my homeland rough and.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Then yet more about the fact that like, oh, I
just wish I could fight in the city, but they're
not letting him in. What kind of idiots wouldn't let
me in? Dark friends?

Speaker 3 (21:58):
Yeah, and he does the thing where he tries to
pre confidence by just being calm, which again it's one
of those great captain good leader kind of traits that
we see. So if you can project calm, then you
are doing your job as a leader at the tippity.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
Top, and so yeah, he gets buried. He realizes just
a second too late before he can call out for
the archers that the drag car are coming down, and
he does that cool thing where he's yelling so loud
he can't hear them crooning, So then he like stabs them.
You know, it's just very bad. So you know Borderlanders tactics, right, Like,
he knows enough about dra car that he knows how
to fight them.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
He's a very adaptable fighter. He's never fought a drag
car in his life, but he knows that noise overwhelm
is gonna really do him well, which that would be
my strategy to you. I tend to get loud, but
I'm just annoyed. So if I was ever in a
fight from my life, you can bet that wall of
sound will be one of the legendary actions that I am.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Pulling, screaming if thop my lungs.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, I don't need those vocal cords tamall.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
Us sonic attack.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, and yeah, he thinks that rand al Thor had
better keep his damn promise to make it all better
at some point somehow.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
Right, because he's holding but he's holding a losing battle,
right He's trying to extend it as long as he can.
But this is an incredibly large number of draulics, more
than he can handle, no matter how clever he is,
so he needs that help. He's just trying to hold
until the help arrives.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
It really reminds me of the Last stand of Medetherin.
It's the exact same energy. Hold for an hour, and
another and another for nine days they held, you know,
it's the exact same energy.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I didn't notice that before.
But that's really well done.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
And in this case, you know, waiting for help is
not because you're being betrayed. It's not because the dragon
reborn is you know, screwing around. But it's still the
same level of you should have died a week ago,
and yet here you are still fighting. And when Ranch
shows up, he's appropriately in awe of it. But I
just feel like it does not get identified as a

(24:01):
parallel to the last stand of Menetherne nearly enough. I mean,
I choose to believe that Egeralda is, you know, a
rebirth of one of those generals from that struggle, because
why not?

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Why not? And I think that takes us to fail POV.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, Fayel actually communicates with Berylaine and the plot moves forward. God,
I love Sanderson. Sometimes we give him shit, but god,
I love this not because it's good, but just because
we needed it.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, it had to happen since I mean, what when
Berylaine said like, I will take him from you back
in like book what was that three or four?

Speaker 3 (24:40):
Four? That's the opening of book four.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
And it's like, finally, let's get a resolution to that
fucking plot about time.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yeah, sometimes his hand fistedness is hand fisted, and sometimes
it's like, thank you for the clarity.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
So fail's heading. She's like, I'm gonna go deal with Berline, right,
I just had my anniversary dinner with parn We woke up.
I'm feeling relaxed. The air is cleared, The air is
cleared with between him and I want to take care
of this thing because I told him I.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
Would, right right, So next day she is all refreshed
and she is able to remind herself, no, don't go
down the path of anger, don't get yourself wound up,
don't pick a fight. Picking a fight is going to
give you short term relief. You need a long term solutions. Right,
She's in the headspace where she can hold herself back
from picking a fight, and her solution is.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
I need Berline to come up with a solution, so
I need to manipulate her into that.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
I mean, sometimes outsourcing is the correct answer. I love
her solution. It's like, I'm not smart enough for this,
but you are. It's just yeah, that's very smart. It's
really really smart. Is to know your strengths and to
know other people's strengths, and to be humpless. It's humble.
It's humility to say no, no, no, you got me

(25:51):
into this mess, you are going to be the one
to get me out.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
So Anura comes out of Berlaine's tent looking particularly chastened.
And this is something where we've never really come down
on what's going on between Honora and Berlaine. We've never really,
I don't think, definitively nailed what's going on between the
two of them.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
I mean, there's a lot of room.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
It has something to do with the Prophet, right, yeah,
because like Honora was visiting the Prophet and Berline didn't
know about that and got pissed off when she found
out about it, and that's kind of what put Nonora
out of her favor. But then Nonora does this whole
thing later where she sacrifices herself to save glot Right,
and so there's this like is she in love with Berline?
Seems maybe something's going on there, right.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
There's something going on where Berline has not forgiven her yet,
and Honora is deeply personally affected by that refusal to
bring her back into the circle of trust. I think
she says something like, you know, she's broken it, she
has to mend it, very similar to have a GWayne
Chasen Swan right, and Anora seems to make multiple attempts

(26:57):
to reconcile that get rejected and rebuffed. And I like
the head canon of an unrequorded crush, but I think
we get left with very little canonical detail. We just
know that it hadn't happened in time for Honora to
choose anything other than burning herself out to try to
make it up to Berrely, Like that's how bad she

(27:19):
still felt in the doghouse when you know Golude was
there with the dying and all that.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
Mm hmm. I mean because she is gray, so she's
trying to. I feel like she's just trying to negotiate
and failing. She keeps trying to negotiate with crazy people.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, and I mean, and there's absolutely every reason to
read it as just a professional friendship that is really intense.
But there's room there for Spicey your head canon if
you want.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah. Well, yeah, I don't know. That's that's the extent
of my speculation on what's going on there.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yeah. Yeah, whatever the thing is that's going on between them,
it is circling the drain and not actually resolving.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
And it ends up leading to her burning herself out.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yes, yes, I mean in some ways, Golad can thank
her for not having this resolve, because it's not he
might have gotten left to die. So Fayoe goes in
is let into the camp. The guards have been told
to let her in and not give any guff and
she's like, yeah, you'd better not, And she goes and
talks to Berylin and I think before we get into

(28:17):
the conversation between them, I think it's just so interesting
despite the fact that Sanderson is a man, I think
that this is actually a really insightful little moment where
Faylle feels downright dingy in comparison to beryl Ain and
feels all ugly and the wrong proportions, and on and
on and on, because this is how people are, right,

(28:39):
This is just a thing people do. Is you look
at all of your flaws and what you admire about
other people, and you make ridiculous comparisons and consider yourself
to be ugly or whatever, and someone you know thinks
that you're incredibly beautiful. And that's just how people are.
But particularly in the context of powerful women dealing with

(29:00):
their power struggles. I mean not that I've ever been
a powerful woman in a power struggle, but I beg
to differ. I've heard enough women talk about their power
struggles in like corporate office settings and stuff to know
that this is a very real dynamic of just like
really comparing yourself to your detriment to some And like,
we know Faylle's gorgeous because we only ever see her

(29:23):
through parent's eyes, and he is, you know, completely bowled
over by her, and Beryline's only pretty when Fayoe's not around, right, Like,
there's no in our minds as readers, there's no real comparison.
There's the like mathematical perfection of Beryline, and there's the
organic beautifulness of Fioe. And to have Fayo be like

(29:44):
so uncertain about her physical appearance is just like that
feels very realistic. That feels very realistic. Women are taught
to do that to themselves, you know.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
File's the kind of actress that, if she was you know,
would get a natural role at a young age and
everyone be like, she's gorgeous, and then she could get
plastic surgery and you wouldn't recognize her, right, and you'd
be like, who is that? That's why yeel really fuck?
I didn't think like, oh well, I don't know, okay, weird.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
Right, because all of the unique asymmetries and distinctivenesses would
have been taken away, and that's what makes people beautiful.
Beryline is the kind of person who is too beautiful.
Her face is too symmetrical, right, it's eerie. That's why
her and God are so well matched is because they
are designer perfect in a way that is actually uncanny.

(30:32):
Whereas Fayil has like a big nose and a funny
laugh and you know, like real things mm hmmm.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
And she also understands parent right in a way that
Beryline does not. Oh my god, she thinks of him,
She's like, oh yeah, he's just a normal Like essentially,
she comes from a culture that is not a purity
culture and doesn't understand purity culture, and Paren, unfortunately, is
from the Two Rivers, where there is this purity culture

(30:59):
of like, you don't sleep with anyone outside your marriage.
That's not just like a scandal, that's actually you know,
then again England versus Italy, right, like how many like
how she is so Italian? Oh yeah, sex scandal whatever,
you know, like look at what their politics have been like, right,
Mayana is so Italian and Two Rivers is so so

(31:21):
England than puritanical in a way that I mean, I'm
not a huge fan of. But you know that's Paren
can't lead with these rumors and he can't like the
people who are following him do not value him as
a leader because they see him making poor choices.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
Though I do think it's funny contrasting that with Fayil's
own lecture to parent about how a bunch of Saldeian
rulers have overcome all kinds of different flaws. It's really
funny how Berylane throws almost the same spiel Right leaders
have overcome infidelities before. It's so close to the same argument.
It's a little different because the purity culture of the

(31:59):
two rivers is an extra confounding factor. But it's funny
how much it is close to identical arguments.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
But I think it's also like he's got enough problems,
we don't need any more.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Sure, sure, absolutely, And also it's not, as Fayl says,
it's an annoyance to them both, right, you were a
not even a third wheel. You're like, keep attaching yourself
like a piece of toilet paper on my shoe at
a festival, Like this is annoying. We're annoying. You're not
adding anything here. Like Berylaine, yeah, it does not get

(32:31):
parent in the sense that she's like, no, he was
encouraging me, and he was into me. And it's like, no,
he wasn't encouraging me.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
He depended on you.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
He appreciated it when you stopped chasing him, which meant
that he was friendlier to you. But like Berylaie is
the kind of person who can't, I guess, see friendship
without there being an ulterior motive, which makes sense because
of the games she's had to play as the ruler
of my n you know, leading a bunch of nasty,
perverted old men from tier around, so that way she

(33:00):
can stay independent, right, But it's just she doesn't get parent.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
And the parallel of trying to lead from a place
of no power. When in Tear it was like, oh,
you're the small nation, but here it's like, well you're
not the wife.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
And in both cases it's like, oh yeah, you're not
formally bonded to these so you have to act in
a very indirect way through rumors and you know, manipulation
rather than just saying what you want. And she's like,
stop it, Like we're done with that, Like let's work together,
and like I can't deal with these rumors. And the
only way I can think of the deal with them

(33:34):
is to challenge you to a battle, Right, we fight,
I kill you. Yeah, I won't stop the rumors, but
at least everyone knows you're not sleeping with them anymore
if you're dead, And like, I don't want to do this,
but that's all I can think of.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Right, And it's not just because she doesn't want to
risk the fight, is because she wants the mayanner army.
She wants the allyship, right, She's like, no, I need
you as a piece of the army, but I need
you as a functional piece of the army, which you
are not while you're sticking a hole in the leadership
of the overall leader.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
So yeah, I Fiel didn't want her to go. The
disappearance of her troops would be a blow in the
face of that looming white Cloak army exactly.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
She's like, I don't want to fight you, but that's
the only thing I can think of, So do your thing,
clever girl, and figure out a better solution.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
And she points out, like we are in a bad
situation because you kind of made a move thinking I
wouldn't come back from Marden and like Malden and like, yeah,
that was a good move, right. If if Fayale didn't
come back from Malden, Berline would have been set up
to take over as Paren's wife.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
Which would have gone well for the army, gone well
for the forces of Light in the last battle. Not
the worst backup plan.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
No, but not good for Parin or Berline.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
No, not good for the entire interim period. It's only
good in the eventublity that Fayale doesn't come back. It's
a terrible plan otherwise.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
Well, and I think also we have to like how
much would paren have without his home, without his anchor,
he would have been useless. I think without fa Yale,
like he would have fallen apart.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
I don't think that the Barylaine home vibe in the
world of Dreams would have cut the mustard. I don't
think it would have worked, you know, I don't think
he would have had an anchor until I run me
odd if he had had second rate wife, second choice wife.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
And so yeah, then Fale says, well, you fix it,
and Berylaine says, well, we gotta be friends. It's the
only way we literally have to do the thing that
like no one would be like, well, if she slept
with them, they wouldn't be friends. There's no way. And
Fale's like, I don't want to be fucking friends with you,
and she's like, too bad, We're about to be besties.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah, that kind of proves the point, right, right, Like
you're pissed at me in ways that are irreconcilable. But
if we fake it till we make it, it might
and you know, we're still going to formally denounce the
rumors because they're just rumors. Look at what good friends
we are.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
I would never and do you think she'd be friends
with me if I did? Right?

Speaker 3 (35:54):
Like, right, It's funny because then they do end up
kind of becoming almost friends because they are in fact,
very similar people who could totally be friends. And the
only reason they're not friends is because of this power
struggle thing. And it's clever and funny and ergonomic on
the plot, and I like it as a solution.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
And clearly where Jordan was going from the beginning, right,
like the two birds sitting on parent Yeah, the prophecy
and all that kind of stuff, right, Like, it's a
nice resolution to that prophecy where it's like, Okay, they're
working together to make and something we wanted so often
was like we want them to work together to manage
parents forces and have everything go well because they are

(36:31):
both have skills that work really well together.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, And then Fagyel throws in the one last
requirement Also, you were going to find another man to
pay attention to Glot, which I think, honestly the way
that she reacts to Golot in the way Galado reacts
to her. Fayel didn't have to say that to make.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
It happen new but new, not at all.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
It also makes sense that she puts it into the requirement.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Have they seen each other yet? I can't remember.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
No, it's a real hilarious Disney kind of moment. When
it happens, you'll know it when you see it.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Yeah, no, it's it's a fun moment. I just didn't
remember if we podcasted about it yet. No.

Speaker 3 (37:07):
I think it's when they meet for the official trial,
like ink and stuff.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
And she's just like who's that? And he's like who's that?
You know?

Speaker 3 (37:17):
Really funny.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
It feels very Shakespearean and that they both have like
these trusted aids that they're like, who's that person over there?
They and then there's like these star cross lovers because
they're on opposite sides of the army, and Beryline's like,
maybe we couldn't. It shouldn't have the whole like when
parents setting up to save them and not saying anything.
She's like, please, don't I love him? He's so cute,
and parents like what are you talking about? I'm gonna

(37:40):
save him? Like shut up, Like I can thank them.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
He's like I literally was not gonna break him. Yeah,
that's the end of that chapter. Should I read us
out of it?

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Sure? Yeah, give us a little.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
We would need to be seen as friends, Barelyne explained,
fighting being at odds, this will fuel the rumor, but
if we are seen spending time with one another, it
will disarm them. That mixed with a formal renunciation on
my part of the rumors, will likely be enough. Fayle
sat down in the chair she had been using earlier friends.

(38:14):
She detested this woman. It would have to be a
believable act, Beroline said, rising and walking over to the
serving stand at the corner of the tent. She poured
herself some chilled wine. Only that would work. You'll find
another man as well, Fayel said, someone you can give
your attentions to for a time, at least to prove

(38:35):
that you're not interested in parent. Berline raised the cup. Yes,
she said, I suspect that would help too. Can you
put on such an act, Faylee, nibashir Tebara. You believed
I was ready to kill you over this, didn't you?
Faylee thought, I promise it. Beryline paused wine cup halfway

(38:56):
to her lips, then she smiled and drank. We shall see, then,
she said, lowering the cup. What comes of this? Go
get yourself a fuck boy for a little bit.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
I love how she trains. She's like, well, the White
Cloaks would be a really good asset to.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
Have for my n That feels like, really our enemy,
that's who you pick.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
It's so funny, And I can see the White Cloaks
like making my EN their their headquarters. They're pretty small group.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
Why not my EN is really looking for any kind
of allies they can get. I mean, if there's anyone
who could make the argument that it's okay to Operation
paper clip a bunch of terrorists long term. Someone in
the discord was like, I can't believe you want to
Operation paper Clip the White Cloaks. It's like, well, I mean,

(39:46):
is it really Operation paper Clip if you just put
them as cannon fodder?

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Sorry, what's explain?

Speaker 3 (39:50):
It's not like we're taking their best and brightest.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Explain Operation paper Clip.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Oh, it's where we took a bunch of Nazi scientists
into our space program. Mmmm in the aftermath of World
War Two? That one, okay, Yeah, the von Braun of
at all.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
That's basically what a lot is doing with paren.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah, we were, well, we were making that argument that
it would make so much sense to like fold them
in dah da da, And I forget who were in
what channel, so I can't check. But uh someone was like,
I can't believe you want to operation paper clips the
white cloaks. I mean, but it's they're not rocket scientists.
They're cannon fodder.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
It's different, right, we want to put them on the
front line of the last back.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Not on the frontier of science. Yeah, but uh yeah,
I could see my n being like, no, I can
fix him and his organization.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah. Right, And then the next chapter we get to
talk about dragons and not the dragons reborn because this

(41:00):
is a Matt chapter, not a despite the title being
talk of dragons, it's not a Rand chapter. It's a
Matt chapter because it's the cannons that were setting up.
And of course we have the dice, which is Matt's symbol. Yep,
it really is. Man, we just were they're throwing like, oh,
this is a Matt chapter. Matt symbol parent chapter, parent symbol,

(41:21):
Rand chapter Rand symbol. I feel like that the headers
used to like talk to something more subtle.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Subtle is not in Sanderson's vocabulary.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, because I.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
Don't know if he was at all involved in these choices.
But subtle is not in deep publishing industry's vocabulary at
this point.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
So I would have liked to see more headers, I
think for the last books, because I feel like they
were they were creating more like there was a set
they kept adding more chapter headers.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
Another set for the last three books would have been nice.
Another crop of like I don't know thirteen would have
been pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
But yeah, good idea, good idea. But yeah, we're gonna
go right into the Matt chapter talk Dragons, I'll read
a sad Matt tugged on a sturdy brown coat. The
buttons were brass, but other than that, it was free
of ornamentation, made of thick wool. It had a few
holes from arrows that really should have killed him. One
of the holes had a blood stain around it, but
that had mostly been washed out. It was a nice coat.

(42:17):
He would have paid a good coin for a coat
like this one. When he lived back into the Two Rivers,
he rubbed his face, looking in the mirror of his
new tent. He had shaved off that bloody beard. Finally
had a parent manage that bloody itching. The man must
have sand paper for skin. Well, Matt would find another
way to disguise himself when needed. He had nicked himself
a few times while shaving, but it was not as

(42:40):
if he had forgotten how to take care of himself.
He did not need a man servant to do what
he could manage on his own. Nodding to himself, he
pulled on his hat and grabbed his Ashendar eye from
the corner of the tent. The ravens on the blade
seemed to perch excitedly anticipation of battles to come. Bloody right,
you do, Matt said, resting the Ashendary on his shoulder.

(43:00):
As he walked out of the tent, he grabbed his
pack and slung it over his other shoulder. Starting tonight
he would be spending nights in the city. I don't
think there's anything. It was not a real good stobbing
spot on that one.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
Agreed, that was where I had sketched out the reading
might be so.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Yeah, he's wearing his coat. The coat becomes so, I
was saying, I really like this chapter. I feel like
this is where Sanderson actually nailed some mat attitude right,
this whole thing with the coat where he's like, I'm
gonna put on a shitty ass coat with holes in
it and blood stains and it's a rough roll, and
I'm gonna go see the queen because like I'm defying
her kind of like with the letter, right, and I'm

(43:37):
showing her that I don't care that she's nobility and
that I'm nobility, which I'm not. But the more and
more closer he gets the actual meeting, the more he goesh,
I probably should have worn a nice coat.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
And the more it itches.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
The more itches, and it's like not in good shape.
And he's like, oh, because he is a noble, that's
the whole point. Like he's saying he's not, but he
totally wears nice and he's like, I wish I had
a little lace on here, and I wish it. And
it's like, dude, just just wear the nice coat. You're
fucking noble, you're rich, you have troops. Get over it.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
Yeah, you're used to nice things. People expect nice things
of you. You can afford nice things. You have nice
things already in your closet. Yeah, now this to me
feels much more like the Matt I was expecting. It's
still the mat we've always known, because he's still grumbling
about the same things, but this is no women are
like goats. You know. This is him yea, yeah, progressively.

(44:27):
And it's also like Sanderson doing a good job of
using a prop to tell a story layered underneath what's
actually happening, Like verbally, he's really struggled with that in
the prior volumes, but here he's actually doing it pretty effectively.
As the coat gets more uncomfortable and Matt gets more
second guessie about it in the back of his mind
as his conversations are going on, it's very very good.

(44:51):
I think I totally agree with you about it.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
So we get a little recap the golms in the area.
There's a bunch of mercenaries in the area who say
they're who showed up after the battle was done. He's like, yeah,
they're not very loyal, but whatever. Like this is a
real powder keg with all these mercenaries here.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Tempers are running hot and no one knows what we're
pointing at next.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
But they become part of the last battle, right, This
is all fighting forces for the last battle where and
I think this is a moment, isn't where They're like,
we're not going to fight unless we get paid. And
he's like, it's last bloody battle. You're gonna fight or
you're gonna die, and that sort of is the end
of that.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
Yeah. Yeah, they're congregating for the last battle. They just
don't know that yet. Nobody knows that yet. Only the
pattern itself knows that. Yet everyone else thinks that there's
something else more mundane going on.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
And then the interaction with Oliver. So Oliver has heard
about the rescue of Moraine.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
They've just been talking about it in front of him,
like as though children have no ears or whatever.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Despite the size of his ears, they.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
Always comment on how bake his ears are.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Right, And then you know, and Oliver is, of course
karsaing and you know who taught you that language? And
then he goes, yeah, this is important. I'm like yeah,
because Matt's the one who taught them, right.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
Yeah. Oliver looks at him like he's bonkers because Matt
I learned to swear from you. Obviously, surely you're asking
this rhetorically, and we don't have time for rhetorical questions.
We got a plan, dude, right, because Oliver is determined
to be part of heroic epic adventuring and this is
why we know that he's going to do a very
good guidle Caine impression with his entire life story arc

(46:25):
despite not being guid Ocaine.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
And how you know he is playing that game when
Matt wins, and there is some sort of relationship between
the game of Snakes and Foxes that he's playing over
and over and over again, right, and Matt rescuing Moraine. Right,
I feel like there has to be this this this
metaphysical connection where like, why is he playing the game

(46:48):
Moraine still captured and he keeps losing.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
Right, and he literally wins when Matt wins. They win
at the same time. The only reason Oliver wins is
because Matt wins. It's like he's doing like a truth
teller kind of entangled thing.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
It feels very similar to Book two when rand is
fighting Shamael and the battles are linked to how they're
out there fight. Right.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Oliver is the battle on the ground, Matt is the
battle in the sky. Yeah, And as long as they're
not fighting at all, then yeah, the game will be unwinnable,
and that's why Alver is stuck on it because he's like,
I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to win. Part of me
knows that I'm supposed to.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
Win at this right, right to save the world.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
And then once he does, right, he wins on the
eve of Camlin going down in flames. Right, so then
his life is nothing but rushing towards the last battle
and surviving the last battle and blowing the horn, and
all of that happens in rapid back to back succession
immediately after he wins the game, So he's never going
back to his childhood and playing that game ever again. Right,

(47:53):
Like that was the last game he needed to play.
He's done now he will be good for the rest
of his life, at least until he has a little
psych kiko he needs to teach a game or something.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
And like when they say this game is unwinnable, I
think it's one of those games where, like you have
to roll a natural twenty so many times in a
row to win it, or whatever that number happens to be,
whether it's a natural twenty or not, where it's like
there is a path, oh, there's always there, always is
a path to winning it if the dice roll correctly.
But the odds are so slim of that ever happening.
You could play, you know, one hundred million times to

(48:24):
win once and so like. But again that goes with
Matt's luck, right, and Matt's luck is linked to the
winning of the board and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
Right, But it's even harder than rolling one hundred twenties
in a row because you have to know when actually
in eighteen was what you need or whatever? Right, Like,
it's just so if you know, you could figure it
out technically, but how right, Like, they've set the conditions
so that way you're forbidden that information unless you have, yeah,

(48:52):
Matt's ability to just trust. But yeah, it is. There
are rules, right, the thin whatever is going on with them,
the finner on the lawful axis, right, you have to
follow the rules. They're like gin or demons or whatever. Right,
they have very specific rules and if you can outlawyer them,

(49:13):
then you win.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
So now we're on the path to go visit a lane, right, Matt,
that's what Matt. He's got the invitation and so he's
taking Tom with him.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
And Mness and like fifty red arms. Yeah, oh, and
also Oliver has been telling everyone who he's close to
about the plan, right, well, just people we trust, just
some red arms. And Matt's like, oh my god. First
of all, I want these plans to be secret. Second
of all, I don't want people thinking I'm doing hero
shit awkward. I don't like that heroes hate being called heroes.

(49:47):
It's a whole thing, it's a whole theme in these books.
So it's cute.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
And I love that Tom has then dressed to the
nines for his return to Camlin. He's now he's no
longer gleam In. He's a court Bard again, and he
stays that court Bard for the rest of the series.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
Yeah, he has no reason to go back into Gleaman
mode for the rest of the series. He is a
barred now. No, he does go back into his gleam
In mode to go rescue Moraine because he wants to
look the same to Moraine. He wants to be dressed
the same as when they met at the beginning of
the series or something like that.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Is he in? I forget what he's wearing in the
last battle.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
I don't think he's wearing his nicest cork clothes I
think he's wearing his more comfortable traveling clothes, which is
his Gleaman outfit, because it's a lot better for hiding
knives and sitting for long periods of time, right, right, right,
it's a ranger outfit as opposed to have a fancy
ballroom outfit. But yeah, I love the transformation from Gleaman
to Bard and just seeing that and be like, oh wow,
here's Tom like really unveiling his true level, you know.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
And it is because it's always been a little bit
of like, oh, he's just a Gleaman and it's like, no,
he's not just a Gleaman, you know. And now he's
so kind of like he's no longer has that mask,
and he took that mask off of like yes, I'm
not I'm now he's not just a Gleaman. I think
he is a gleam in as well.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's multi classed in barred and barred.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
And then there's a moment where Matt thinks about Lopin
and how he wouldn't have the shitty jacket of Flopin
and laid him out a proper outfit, and I think
there's a little bit of mourning right, that little bit
of like he shaved because he has to, but he's
not changing the jacket, like there's still a little bit
of morning lopein in there.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
Agreed, Agreed, I had never thought of that until you
mentioned it last episode. But I totally think that this
is Matt's very emotionally immature but nonetheless real way of mourning.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
And then there's the what I would call Schrodinger's noble. Right,
So because Matt's like, I'm not a noble and Tomans
is like, uh, you're not a farmer. And Tom's like,
Mussen Musng is like the Shawn Chain right who worked
with Tuan. He's gonna say it called you Prince of
the Ravens, right, and prince means you are nobility. And

(51:55):
he's like, no, no, no, no, no, just because you marry
somebody doesn't mean you suddenly become bloody nobility. And then
this is one of my favorite changes, when Tom goes,
that's exactly how you become nobility, like and and he's like, well,
maybe it works different in Sean Chan, and they're like, no,
pretty sure, it works exactly the same in Sean Chan.
He's like, well until I talk to two on we

(52:16):
don't know for sure. She never said I was the
prince of the Ravens, so until we talk to her,
I'm not technically nobility.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
He's such a funny man, and so I.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
Really love his justification there of like you know, I
both mm am not nobility until we talk to two on,
until we look in the box.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
But it's like so funny because he's like, just because
I'm married a noble doesn't mean I'm a noble. It's
like that is the only way to become a noble,
aside from being born as one or like raised by
decree like this, that's literally the definition of how that.
It's so funny, it's so deadpan, it's so hilarious, Like, yeah,

(52:54):
Sanderson is getting that so much better in this chapter
than he was before. We love to see that development
from him. And also this is the beginning of tillmanis
starting to have a sense of humor that we see
on the page. We're getting a little bit of that
starting to flower out.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
And I've noticed that Talmanus is kind of substituted in
for Julian. Yeah, like it does feel like Julian got
bumped off the page and his lines got given to
Telmanus here, because you've got Matt and Telmanus making sorry
Tom and Tilmanus making fun of Matt as opposed to
normally you'd have Matt Jesus Christ. Normally you'd have Tom

(53:32):
and Julian making fun of Matt in this situation. Yeah, so,
but it does feel like these lines were originally Julian's
and got given to Telmanus and looks like you have
this sort of taciturn dry humor character who's adjacent to Matt,
and they're kind of the same character.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
It's like a starter culture moving from the developed character
of Julin to the undeveloped container of Talmani's and be like,
all right, we want Talbani's to be a bit of
a dry humor sidekick, and we're gonna we're gonna take
some culture from a prior character and get it started.
And I think we're starting to see the ferment bubble
into the new medium here.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
I feel like on Andrawl is same right that they
wanted to write all of Andral's scenes with Logan. God
names are hard today Logan, but it was too much
of an original character and they couldn't make it Logan,
so they had to make it this other Andral character
who's maybe mentioned once or twice but isn't much of
a character. He's a blank slate. But yet he gets

(54:34):
this sort of black Tower leadership role that really should
have gone to Logane. So in the same way that, like,
I kind of think as Talmanus and Julian is one character,
Andrawl is kind of, you know, a Logane substitute.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Yeah, except what tal Mona is. I think it's fine
to flesh him out this late date, whereas Andrel comes
out of nowhere where Logan deserved to get fleshed.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Out more right, right, that's and that's not so much
sort of a with andrels. I just I wish that
Logan had gotten that fleshing out.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
Yeah, it's not Andrew's fault that he was written, but
it does suck for Logan, right all right. So they
ride in with Matt thinking about his plans and his
worries about how hard it's going to be to get
a Lane to work with him, which is all moot
because she's super excited to work with him. There's a
crowd looking for the famous Lord Matt and probably mistaking

(55:27):
Telmani's for him. Which is fine. Legends fate to myth.
It starts still while the legend is alive, love that
he thinks about how the Palace of Camlin could work
as a bunker. It's not exactly the Stone of Tyr,
but he has such a military mind that he can
see that it's actually quite well fortified for a palace.
Fascinating that might come in handy later.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
In reverse the talks are going to take it.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
Jesus well, it could have been an asset. And then
we get to see Charles Guibond again. He's been around,
but this is the first time we've seen in this book.
It's been a long time.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Sure a quick question. He says. The conversation with the
Lane was going to be tough, but Matt had a
hidden card when he hoped would be enough to get
her to look past the expanse of Ludra's proposal. What's
that hidden card? I never was really sure what he's
referring to there. The medallion loan Uh yeah, okay, thank you.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
That and it works. It tips her over the edge
when she's teetering on the fence. He pulls it out
and it works.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Well, I think, what's so funny? Is like, we see
Tom observing and and Matt's like, oh, I tricked her
into it, And Tom's like, no, she took advantage of you,
like he She immediately saw the value of what you
were bringing and negotiated you down to a point where
she got something essentially for free, and she stole she
stole the cannons from you. Yeah, kind of entirely.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Yeah, you might be good at battle, but you and
House so good at business.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
No. No, And so that's Tom, and Tom's kind of giggling,
and Matt's like, whose side are you on? He's like,
I'm on my so like everybody's side like you, but
you got taken advantage of well, you got played.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
He's on the side of his you know, intellectual ifnophysical
daughter winning over his emotional adopted son and making good
weapons in good hands for the last battle, Like I mean,
this is a win win for.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Humanity, totally, totally. Yeah. You know, he's proud of a
lane for absolutely. Voujie is saying he's proud of a lane,
and I think that's true, true, but you know, you
can't really you know, I think back to Tom of
the original books and how much he sacrificed even because
when Matt was corrupted by the dagger, Tom thought he
was suffering channeling sickness, you know. And so there was

(57:36):
a really point where Tom the point where Tom was
like willing to sacrifice himself for Matt because he thought
he was suffering in the same way that his cousin
nephew did.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
Yeah. Well, also like he trained more Gaze in a
lot of the skills that Elaine then got trained by
more Gaze in, right, so he's seeing that like, oh, yeah, no,
I taught I taught her mom good, real good.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
Don't forget. He also trained her quite a bit. Like
there was a lot of late conversations where they on
the road, They had a lot of political conversations. So
a lot of his his lessons actually were very helpful
as well to Elaine. She thinks about that like, yes,
all she learned from her mother, but also like Tom
knew quite a bit and was a very good person
to bounce ideas off of and have you know.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
And Tom knows Matt's capacities and when he sees her
just handle him like a kitten, He's like, that's a girl.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
Yeah. Yeah, So we got guyon who you know, we
see as a very respectable you know, he's a young
leader who has come up with the ranks because he's
in the right place at the right time, and he's
a very loyal soldier to Elaine.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
And he's going to be her third order. We don't
see it happen on page, but she's thinking about him
for a third order, and especially when she loses Burgita
and her other order is you know Rand, She's going
to need a warder. So it's going to be guybon.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
I always forget about that, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:56):
And also remember this is a fan character. Remember this
is the husband of a fan.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Oh I didn't know that, Guybond.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
You're the one that did the research to tell us
that on an episode many episodes ago.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Okay, fair enough, I forgot, But yes, this is.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
One of the fan names that we know of. Guy
Bond might be Elaine's talin for but I think he's
going to be less weird about it, right, right, right.
I think he's going to be a lot more forward
and Elaine's going to be like, yes, let's do this,
and it's going to be great, I think, without.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
The talent war, without the love aspect of it. But
that loyal dedication.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
There might be some love. I don't know, she's going
to need someone to sleep with. And you know Brynn
and more Gaze were sleeping together, So.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Do you think she's not going to keep sleeping with
Rand she knows he's alive after the last battle.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
Is he going to be around or is he going
to be off writing poetry on a mountaintop for fifty years?
Also there is Alvianda that's true. I think he's going
to be a non problematic version of talent. For whether
or not that's romantic, I don't know, but I think
he's going to be very loyal and you know he's
going to be Brent. He's going to be Brent to
be awesome and great, and so you know, seeing him

(01:00:03):
through Matt's eye is kind of fun because Matt immediately
assesses him is like decent. And then we have a
very fun interaction where Guybond runs through a whole bunch
of stories that are fading legend myth and he's like, hey, Matt,
how many of these wild things do you do? And
we can recognize every single one as being a thing
that happened, and Matt is, you know, doing a bad

(01:00:24):
job of deflecting. Shall we say, I really.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Like it because it's it's again, it's it's Sanderson saying, Hey,
all these things that have happened to Matt, here's how
they get distorted. And then here's a step between what
happens to Matt and our stories of Odin and our
stories of these supernatural characters who actually go through these
sorts of crazy things. You know, absolutely, you know, hanging
for a tree for nine days? Did he hang from

(01:00:49):
the tree for nine days?

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
You know that's actually a bit of well, you know,
that is a question.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Was it nine days that they were down in there?
I think it was seven. I think it can't have
been nine days because they literally weren't down that line.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
I thought it was one day less than a week,
which would have been nine. We're just thinking seven because
their weeks are different, like scenaris, right, I forget. I
forget as well.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
But also he physiologically can't have hung for nine days,
not outside of the of the doorway.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
No. No, But there is that moment, right, like they
both have a week does go by and they both
perceive it as a very short amount of time.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
That right, I put a lot of that travel on
him walking through.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
But yeah, you know, if normal time happened to Matt
and he was hung right afterwards, and he was dead
for nine days and Rand altered the pattern to bring
him back right, Like, there's that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
I don't think that happened. I think he was only
out of the gateway for a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
I agree. I agree that like, yes, time passed different hanging.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
For quote unquote nine days because he was on the
other side of the gateway for the first few moments,
I could believe that the doorway right, But yes, it
becomes nine days for the odin story alimate and it
is you know, to gain knowledge, that's what that's about.
And Matt did indeed gain knowledge.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Right hanging in with the treating acknowledge that you never
lose it, Dice, or it love and your spear never
misses his target. And he's like, well, I've never I've
definitely lost it love and my spirit has missed its
target for sure, But I don't lose it Dice.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
Yeah, And even with love and the spirit, he still
has better luck than most, so, you know, good enough
for the legend, mythologizing thing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
It's also later when he throws the knife it loses
an eye and throws the knife and takes out a
tree ranch totally by accident. You know. It's like, oh, yeah,
your spear never does mixed because you can depend on
luck to guy it. Right. Yeah, they say you slew
one of the Forsaken. Not true, Matt says. And I
was trying to remember. He didn't kill any of the Forsaken, right,
like Matt.

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
Never He's been part of several concerted efforts to kill
a Forsaken that were successful. But you're right, he has
not actually taken down a Forsaken in any kind of
a one on one contact, not like Ninive or Moraine
has he know, right, right, But he has fought multiple
Forsaken and not died or at least been resurrected promptly

(01:03:11):
after being killed. And then the next one is that
you dueled the king of the Aele invaders in a
battle of honor.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
It's like, yeah, he killed kulandin.

Speaker 3 (01:03:20):
He killed Kuliden and he was not King of the
ael and it was not a battle of honor. It
was just a duel that happened in a battle.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
But king and Kara Khan are essentially equivalent statements for
the Wetlanders, right, and Kuland was claiming to be the
car Khan, which is the chief of chiefs, right, that
is king, and like it wasn't a duel of honor,
but it was an honorable battle. It was honorable fight
on the battlefield. So I mean, it's like it's very
small semantic differences in terms of what actually happened.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
And yeah, does that lead into legends of killing a
forsaken also maybe maybe not, but either way, yeah, that
did happen. And then guy says, well, that one at
least seems realistic, unlike, and Matt has to prod because
it's like it's a really embarrassing rumor to say you
believe in. But also it is, uh, you stepped into

(01:04:11):
death domain to challenge him and demand answer to your questions,
and he gave you that spear you hold and foretold
to you your own death, which is like, yeah, that
basically happened.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
That basically yeah, you know, not death but snakes and foxes.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
And you didn't step into death domain. It was the
Finn's domain, and you did demand answers to your questions.
They did give you the spear, and they didn't foretell
your death. But they did foretell your marriage and the
fact that you would be coming back to give up
an eyeball.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
They totally foretold those death which which depth you'll die twice.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
Okay, first of all, that would be plural, that would
be death's.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Okay, deaths fine, but yeah, but like you know, all right,
you will die and live again, right, Like that's that
you will die and live again. That is a foretelling
of his death, one hundred percent foretelling of his Death's fair,
that's fair. Not his final death, but a death.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
So yeah, it's it's just a very very well written
interaction where Matt's dodging the question badly and Guybond is
demonstrating how rumors fade to legend and I enjoy it
very much.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
It's a really well written section of for me. It
gets at the heart of what wheel of time is
in a lot of ways.

Speaker 3 (01:05:16):
Yeah, eleven out of ten to Sanderson on that one.
You got it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Yep, totally.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
So they're walking through the palace and Tom is the
center of attention, not Matt, because Tom is well, he's returning. Well,
a lot of them know who he is. It's not
just that he's dressed. He's returning and there's a lot
of and also he's doing his gleaming thing where everyone's
eyes are on him because he's just magnetic, right, but

(01:05:42):
he's good at that. The fact that he's returning in
full fig is definitely surprising a lot of the Palace staff.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
And you get Matt finally being like, burn me, I
should have worn something nicer. It's just fun.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Yeah, So he walks in on a lane and immediately goes, damn,
she's gained some weight. I say something about that? Or
should I keep myself to myself? I don't know. It
seems like if you don't. And I like this line.
Sometimes women got angry when you mentioned that they look different,
and sometimes they got angry if you did not notice.
And I've like, I feel like that encapsulates so much

(01:06:15):
about a gender struggle that like is very real, right,
this idea that like, yeah, she wants you to notice
when she gets a haircut, she does not want you
to notice if you get fat or gain weight, sorry
to get fat whatever, you know, Like there's certain like
you don't want to. I don't want you to mention
that I have, like you know, a smear of makeup

(01:06:36):
or like bags under my eyes, right, don't mention that,
Like I think it's things you can control versus things
you can't. I understand that there is a difference between
those two things, but I like that there's this like
what you look different? I mentioned it, like I don't
understand that there's different categories of looking different.

Speaker 3 (01:06:54):
Yeah, it's definitely one of those like eye roll gender differences.
But also it's so rooted in reality. Like it's so
rooted in reality. And I'm the kind of person who
will notice that you changed your hair about a week later.
I'm really slow for whatever reason. And then suddenly after
a week of your hair being different, I'll go, wait,
did you change your hair? And they're like, yeah, a

(01:07:16):
week ago everyone already mentioned it, Like you are very
late to the game. That's that's always been my problem,
is I just noticed stuff so late. But yeah, the well,
how was I supposed to know which thing to mention? Is?
Also it echoes par and be like, well, I don't
know if a YO wants me to yell or not.
And it's like this is not a business neckline, right,
like that whole thing. It's like the same thing here

(01:07:37):
is It's like Matt, obviously if she chooses a pretty
gown or a new hairstyle, you should say something. And
if she's gained some weight or looks like she might
have tripped and fallen down the stairs and has a
broken ankle, you don't need to mention those thanks, because
she didn't choose it. It's a very simple algorithm, actually,
But it totally makes sense for Matt to be like,
I don't know, it's so.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Funny you don't mention, know when they get themselves into
a trap. That's definitely not Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
Also, he leaves Talmanis outside because he doesn't want to
be humiliated in front of him, but Tim Honis is
all but heard about it. It's this whole other, like
secondary thing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
Oh I missed that entirely.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Yeah, He like tells tom Monus to wait outside, and
toil Monus looks crestfallen, and Matt says, Okay, I'll get
you a dinner invite. And at the end of the
chapter he says to Aline like, Okay, we can have
dinner later, but you have to invite Tamnas otherwise he'll
literally skin me alive and it will be bad. But
it's it's just it doesn't mean anything, really, Tom Honis
and Elaine have no real relationship or dynamic, but it's

(01:08:33):
just a funny dynamic.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
With Yeah, I don't really get that Matt.

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
And Tom Honys or Tom Monis really want because Talmanis
wants the perks of Matt being a noble of higher rank.
M Talmnus really wants all the perks of being attached
to someone who's a literal prince, and Matt is doing
everything possible to not take those perks until mos Like, dude,
we could get into the extra VIP suite, I get
free drinks. Why don't you want the free drinks?

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
Because I remember Van in the all into Elane right
like he had she charmed the shit out of him.
But Tom Honis was with the other half of the
band of the Red Hand during that entire trip, right
he was. He was managing the band while Matt and
Vannon and a few others were off on this quest
to rescue Elaine in that group, so he didn't get
a chance to hang out with her, and he probably

(01:09:19):
heard all the stories from like Vannon and that group
of people about Elaine right right.

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
Right, He's like, I want to be friends with the
Queen of vander That would be awesome, thank you, and
Matt's like, I don't, I don't, I don't know. It's
just a funny piece of their dynamic. But the really
cool thing is how Elaine has changed to the point
that she's a lot less formal now that she's queen.
She runs up with all the enthusiasm and the hugging

(01:09:44):
and the excitement and the squeaing and is just way
less uptight. And Matt wonders why that is, And I
think it's the she's grown up into the role that
she was always expecting.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
She's not pretending to be She's.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
Not trying to prove herself as being worthy anymore. Now
she knows she's worthy because she's actually achieved it. She
doesn't have to prove anything. Now she has to do
the thing, and she's much more comfortable having achieved it
than she was when she was like uncertain, lying about herself,
new to the job, pretending to be ased to die. Right,
She's not pretending anymore. She is queen full stop.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
It's the difference between my mom's queen and I'm the
daughter heir and I'm the daughter heir, yes, and or
I'm the queen now I'm the queen now, Yeah, yes, exactly,
But there was that moment of like, well, don't you
know who my parents are versus like, yeah, now I'm
in charge, right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
Plus she's been holding on to that guilt about leaving
them behind in a boudar, and she had the letter
to let her know that they're okay, but she still
needs a good big bear hug from Tom to like
really let it all out and like actually believe that
they are in fact safe and she didn't abandon them
to their deaths.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
Yeah, because this is the bold wins right when that
got passed, that was the last time we've had a
whole you know, winter and summer. Almost six months to
a year since then, I think, long time, long time.
And she never knew what happened to them for a
long time as well.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
So yeah, and Brigida wants to know about Oliver and
like it's just the reunion energy is very.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Warm, and I like that she apologizes for not responding
right away. I'm sorry my Steward lumped you into the
wrong group. I didn't know you were there, you know,
Like there's an actual apology.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
Right, And Matt tries to brush it off and she's like, no, really,
it's embarrassing, like this is a profoundly not what I
meant to have happen, Like I've made that apology myself
so many times. I'm so sorry I forgot that I
had that email inbox Entirely. I wasn't blowing you off
like this has happened.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
I meant to respond to the text, and I got
busy and then I forgot about the text, and I'm
so sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
Exactly, it went into my spam folder for no good reason,
and I had to search for it by name when
you texted me to ask about it, like I've made
this apology so many times. And then Matt says, I
really like your queen. I don't want to call you
your majesty. That's so weird, and she's like, well, yeah,
obviously not unless we're in public. And I guess that is.
As TC travelers say, it's a good reason tell Bonus

(01:12:04):
wasn't there, because then it would have been more awkward
because that would have been borderline public, whereas this is
kind of a family reunion.

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
And speaking of family, Tom goes, so, how how's the pregnancy,
and Matt's like, oh, you didn't just gain some weight,
you're actually pregnant, right, Tom's like, don't you pay attention?
Everybody's talking about it, right, how did you? How are
you sitting in like a tavern and are missing the
most common piece of gossip because of course everyone's like, yeah,
the Queen's pregnant obviously.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
Right right, Like again, she is in her second trimester,
she's showing, she's commissioning maternity gowns. Everyone knows she's pregnant.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
This is not and everyone's speculating on the father.

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
Yeah, this is not hard news to pick up, Like
what are you? What are you doing? How do you
not know this?

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
And there's actually a little bit of like why doesn't
he pick that up? That seems kind of weird. He's
just very not paying attention.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
I think he's just focused on his own worries and
just kind of ignoring news of Elaine as like a
default filter. If it's rumors about Elaine, he doesn't care
because he's going to talk to her later. Best I
got fair.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
And he's like Rand's the father, okay, Like he's like,
you know you're pregnant?

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
Oh yeah, does Randon know about this? I should hope
he's not too.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
Surprised he was there when it happened.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
I also love that she doesn't even begin to try
to keep it a secret from Matt, Like this is
a family reunion. Everyone in this room is qualified to
know who the real father is because obviously we all
love Rand so it makes sense to know who his
children are, like the it's sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
I also really like the reunion between Brigida and He
kind of skipped over that, but that's you know, the
old drinking buddies who without a drink, but like, yeah,
that's just they're good friends. They're still good friends. They
stay good friends.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
He sticks out his hand for a shake and she's
like come here and gives them the like slapping hug
thing like yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
And you know, she gave him a squeeze and Matt
was like totally. And so she asked about a budar,
and I love Burgie's response forget abudar, what about all
of her? Right, because she cared about the ugly little kid, right,
that's her Getlekane and he's not Gutlecane.

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
But it's close enough for the instinct to keep a
child safe, and you know, yeah, they get the update,
like yeah, he's fine. He's going to be a professional soldier,
but other than that, he's fine. And then Tom tells
them the story of the whole adventure, and Matt almost
thought of himself as a hero listening to Tom. Almost
like the way Tom tells it, he comes out as

(01:14:27):
a hero, and that again reinforces this is how events
fade to myth. This is how it happens, is you
get a master bard to tell the story and it
really cleans up the awkward edges and makes everything feel
a lot more streamlined, gives you a clear hero, so
on and so forth.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
And I like how he's talking to Alane. He's like,
you know where a varon is because I need a
gateway and she's like no, He's like, well, so much
for a gateway. And it's like you know this, she's
made a deal with the kin to provide gateways. Like literally,
you're talking to the person. Yeah, she literally has more
gateways to at her fingertips than anybody else. Like she's
the perfect person to send you to the Tower of Gunjai.

Speaker 3 (01:15:04):
Yeah, this is the most gateway saturated place who could
possibly come. And then we talk about Bell Founders.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Bell Founders, Yeah, Dragons, I love the way that she's
Elane's like, I don't understand why you'd want to throw
chunks of metal up in the air, where it's like
you wouldn't you'd throw them at the troops, and she
immediately gets like the strategic benefit of that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
Matt rules out the project proposal, and within five minutes
the entire potential is understood by the people that he's
pitching the budget at. They get it fast, right, and
you know, it's a good reminder that like this once
started as throws pretty lights in the sky, and here's
how you change the physics. But it's also like, we're

(01:16:00):
not going to be labored the point the strategic implications
are going to be grassed very fast.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
Especially if you're you know, a channeler, right, this isn't
the first time you've been able to create large amounts
of energy concentrated in one spot. You understand the damage
that can.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
Do, yeah, totally, And you can do the math to
be like, well, this is how many shots per hour
to take out this much wall. Here's how many channelers
that's equivalent to HM.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
But I do think if if Jordan was writing this,
there would be a lot more skepticism at first and
he'd have to like build one to convince her. Like
She's like, well, well, we will have to build one
to make sure. I think like her skepticism would have
lasted until that first one was demonstrated.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
Sure, which would have been really frustrating to us. I
much prefer this approach where she just goes as a
tinkerer and an engineer. Yeah, let's build a prototype. But yeah,
let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Matt, I could kiss you. This is exactly what I needed.

Speaker 3 (01:16:51):
First, Snorri. Now Matt, Rand's gonna get jealous, so funny.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
She's like, well, if you would come here, I'd kiss him,
but he's not, so I'm gonna kiss everybody else. I'm
just saying Elaine. Elaine's a little bit of a horn dog.

Speaker 3 (01:17:08):
She's agreen.

Speaker 1 (01:17:10):
Yeah. The way she gets with Rand in the Stone
of Tear for three days and they're just like making
out in the hallways, it's like, oh yeah, oh yeah,
she's a freak.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
Yeah, yeah, very much so. She's fireworks in every possible context.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Every possible way, because she like and at the time
she barely knows. She still barely knows Rand. Really, if
you think about the amount of time they spend together
like he's tall and cute.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
What more do you need to know?

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
Yeah? I want tall babies, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:17:38):
And then we get into the negotiation where Matt says, Wow,
so generous of you to be so excited to build
these for me, and Elaide says, for you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
All build these for me.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
I thought you were being generous giving me these plans
for nothing at all. And that's when Tob is just
sitting back with some popcorn and just enjoying himself.

Speaker 1 (01:18:00):
And so there's a lot of back and forth, right, like,
there's this, but they kind of end up. Let's see,
what's the final deal. The band can leave at any time,
like the band's fighting within and Or they have exclusive
use of the dragons. No one else can use them.
All the bands in and Or they have to give
a month's notice before they leave. But when they leave,
they get to take a quarter of the dragons with them.

(01:18:21):
And Elane keeps three quarters of the dragons.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
Yeah, and she foots the entire cost of making them.
He supplies the people who get trained in their initial usage, and.

Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
She gets them for at least one year, right, they
won't leave for at least a year.

Speaker 3 (01:18:37):
Yeah, And it's a lot of back and forth about
sovereignty and agency and resource allocation and understanding that the
Last Battle is sort of the overarching looming thing, and
that these negotiations are a little bit in preparation for
after the last battle, because the last battle is clearly
going to come real, real soon and be sort of
a moot issue. The dragons would be used to protect

(01:18:58):
humanity full stop.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
And what she's not saying is I want this band
because we saw it earlier. They're mostly kyrieene In, or
there's a good portion of them that are kyrieene In,
and she can use them as native sons when coming
to take over the Kyrienne and thrown and so as
soon as they strike the deal, she's like, great, we're
going right to Kyrienne first thing, Like that's the first thing.
And he's like, oh yeah, I guess I can see
why you're using them for that. That's fine, you know,

(01:19:22):
like you can use them to take over the Kyrienne.

Speaker 3 (01:19:24):
Right well, because it's not going to be a high
mortality event. You know, it's going to be mostly a
show of force and keeping peace while a new order
gets established. It's not going to really throw away their
lives for someone else's ambitions. So he's like, yeah, that
seems fine. It gives them something to do rather than
picking fights with mercenaries, which is good.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
But during the negotiations, he brings out the medallion his
secret hidden card right, and basically says, you can have
this for three days and do whatever you want with it.
I just want it back.

Speaker 3 (01:19:54):
He offers one day and agrees to three days. In
the end, she bargains him up folk like of her,
but yeah, he offers it for her to do whatever
she wants with it, and then she says, oh, I
might be able to copy it, which is integral to
his ability to take down the golomb. Her being able
to copy it is a benefit he hadn't even begun

(01:20:15):
to consider when he considered loaning it to her, and.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
In a lot of ways it is how he can
start to formulate a plan to take down the goal.
And he's like, ooh, multiple copies, all of a sudden,
ideas start.

Speaker 3 (01:20:26):
Going off right. And for her the copying process is
really annoying and difficult because it doesn't allow a person
to hold it in channel right. There's a lot of
issues for her, But for him it's all benefit because
all he needs is that sizzle when it hits a golomb.
That's all he needs, and she is going to make
it possible to take that fucker down.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
I'm assuming that the medallion stops negating weaves if nobody
is holding it, and that's how she's able to study it.
That if she sets it down on a table, she
can channel into it, right, But.

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):
She can't hold it and be protected by it and
use the power the same time. But she can with
the original. The original has that, and all of her
copies don't.

Speaker 1 (01:21:05):
Oh no, So what I'm thinking is even the original,
right she if she's holding it, If somebod's holding it
and you try and channel into it, it's gonna immediately
negate the weaves.

Speaker 3 (01:21:15):
Oh gotcha? Gotcha?

Speaker 1 (01:21:16):
Yeah? Right? So, like, even if she's holding it and
tries to channel into it, it's not so much that
she can't channel, so much as she's trying to channel
into a medallion that will negate weaves. So how do
you study something that will negate any weave you channel
into it. I have to assume that it's deactivated when
it's sitting on the table.

Speaker 3 (01:21:32):
Sure it's got some sort of power up when it's
within a certain range of the human electrical field or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:21:39):
I think it has to be touching a skin for
it to work.

Speaker 3 (01:21:41):
That makes sense. That makes sense because, yeah, she studies
it well enough to make at least a partial copy
that works well enough for offensive purposes.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
I thought she did make at least one perfect copy
of it.

Speaker 3 (01:21:51):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (01:21:52):
No, No, they're all just the Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:54):
They're all variations on imperfection. Some of them work better
than others, like some of them don't work at all,
and some of them do work a bit, but they
all have a flaw that she, you know, kind of
will be able to work out once she's not pregnant
and dealing with juggling the last battle. But it's going
to take a lot more R and D than she
has time for for the rest of the books. And
he feels very naked without the medallion. And then he

(01:22:17):
tells Elaine that the Gulomb's back in Tad, and she
understands how naked he must be feeling without it. She's
all right, I will be sure to not dick around
on giving this back to you, which I appreciate because
they already agreed on that. But now she knows that
it's not an arbitrary thing. He really is actively in danger.
But the fact that she's going to make copies it

(01:22:37):
pays off. It really does pay off. Oh yeah, Tez Travis.
She thinks about keeping the original because Matt won't know
the difference, and then she knows that that would be
not very honorable, and so she gives him back the original,
but she does consider not.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
The copies can also be overwhelmed. It seems that, like
the original, you can channel any amount of power at
it and will absorb it. The copies, if you get
powerful enough, we'll eventually break down and stop functioning, So
they're not quite the protection of the original, which it
makes it seem like the original is some sort of
even more than just super tear on real it's like
a supernatural object, kind of like the horn of Layer. Yeah, right,

(01:23:15):
these objects that seem to have power beyond And maybe
it's just copying imperfectly, but I kind of have the
idea that like, oh well, these things are just are
special in some way.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
Yeah, finn engineering is better, I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:23:30):
Yeah, because we don't know if the Finn made this
or if it was taken from another They just happened
to have it and they took it from the real world. Right,
did someone come into the Gateway and die with that
on them and they have that in their possession or
did they make it in response to his request?

Speaker 3 (01:23:47):
Hard to say.

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
I think it was made and brought in. I don't
think the fin invented it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:51):
I have a hard time imagining the Finn creating anything.
But also the fact that Elaine struggles to imitate this
makes me think that clearly this technology is from a
very different time and place, if not from a different realm.

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
And the fact that it is a fox head right
from the snakes and foxes, right, So it's not like.

Speaker 3 (01:24:08):
Well, maybe they imbued it with certain properties or something
and that was one of the wishes of one of
their visitors.

Speaker 1 (01:24:15):
We don't really know how the wishes work. Yeah, how
do they How much power do the fox snakes and
foxes have to fulfill wishes?

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
I don't know. They're weird because it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:24):
Seems like they can't necessarily like change reality, but they
can give you things, right.

Speaker 3 (01:24:29):
But also, you know, reverse engineering someone's tech is hard,
as they point out here with Eludra's cannons, right, they
kind of talk about the spread of military technology and
how we don't really want our enemies to get it,
but it's impossible to keep them from getting it ultimately.
But also, if you don't have a Ludra, you're not
going to have as good of a time. It's going
to be really hard to reverse engineer something as good

(01:24:51):
as what Eludra's got. And the same rules kind of
apply to the Fox set. If you know what you're doing,
yes you can make it. But if you're reverse engineering
from the finished product, you're going to need a lot
of R and D or some extreme luck to replicate
the genius of the original inventor.

Speaker 1 (01:25:07):
I like this exchange between Matt and Elaine. I don't
like having men who could leave me at any time.
You know I won't hold them back merely despite you.
Matt said, I'll do what's right, what you see as
being right. She corrected. Every man should have that option,
he replied, few men use it wisely. We want it anyway,
we demand it.

Speaker 3 (01:25:27):
I mean mic drop right, because when Elaine says, what
you see as being right is mirror reverse right. Everyone
has their own view of what is right. That's kind
of the point of being human. You don't get to
dictate what is right for me. That that's kind of
the whole point of having agency. It's kind of the
whole point of free will. We demand the right to

(01:25:50):
have our own moral compass, not be dictated at us
by someone else who thinks that they're better than us
at thinking.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
And then once they make the deal, she's like, did
you hold that in reserve because you thought I might
send you against the two Rivers? And he's like, no,
but that's a perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:26:08):
Yeah, way to prove my point, I guess because I
didn't even know that was in the picture. Yeah. But no,
for him, it was just a matter of he has
a lot of battle memories and he knows that history rhymes,
so he wants to maintain maneuverability for his multinational military
force and timeline.

Speaker 1 (01:26:28):
I'm not really sure where Parent is in relationship to this.
It seems like he's still pretty like it seems like
this is further along when he's put the band the
Menethrene again, because this is closer to Rand's timeline, right,
But she's heard rumors. They're old rumors, so I'm not
sure exactly what she's heard about. Where Parent is at
his moment in his quote unquote rebellion. This could still

(01:26:50):
be her hearing rumors about when he was raising the
flag of Menethrene.

Speaker 3 (01:26:55):
Because parent puts the flag up and then he takes
it down and then puts it up again, And yeah, really,
I think maybe deliberately ambiguous on where we're at with
the parent timeline.

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):
Next thing I have is Lane talking to Tom about
making him court barred, but not being tied down to
being court barred.

Speaker 3 (01:27:13):
She wants to give him a pardon, and she hides
it inside a proclamation that he can be court barred
at large, because that's a big smoke screen to hide
the By the way, I pardon you for anything and everything,
including up to in including murder or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
It feels a little bit like an honorary doctorate before.
It's like you've done the you know, like you've done
the work. You never actually got the doctorate, but like
we're just going to give you that title and let
you go about your life with that title because you've
done so much.

Speaker 3 (01:27:39):
Which you know, I think he's earned. The only reason
that he left Camlyn in such a bad odor was
because Morgaid was young and impulsive, and he was young
and impulsive and they had a bad fight, like it
wasn't even robbing, it was just a bad time.

Speaker 1 (01:27:52):
Well, also he killed her husband, and.

Speaker 3 (01:27:55):
That's what the pardon is for, right.

Speaker 1 (01:27:57):
Yeah, the pardon in both and Or and Kyrie Enne
is for killing both kings.

Speaker 3 (01:28:03):
King killer over here.

Speaker 1 (01:28:05):
Yeah, like he he has remembered because like back when
the king killed his love Dana Dana.

Speaker 3 (01:28:12):
But he also killed Tarangale.

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
But he also killed Tarangale because Tarangell was going to
kill more gays because he wanted to take over and Or.

Speaker 3 (01:28:20):
Yeah, so Elaine's just kind of like, I don't really care.

Speaker 1 (01:28:23):
So she just pardoned him for the killing of two kings.

Speaker 3 (01:28:26):
Yeah, because they were bad people and you're cool, So
it's okay. Basically that's her basically our argument.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
Yeah, And He's like, I don't know if how does
she know? I just she pardoned me for killing two kings?
Is that? Like? Is she aware that that's? And I
wonder who told her? And she's aware. I think she knows.

Speaker 3 (01:28:47):
Yeah, It's like, did she just pardon me for killing
her biological father? Awkward?

Speaker 1 (01:28:52):
Basically yeah, basically and her biological uncle, right, like isn't
isn't Domindred somehow her through.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
Yeah, Terrean Gale Domindrade. Yeah, Terrean Gale is a Domindrade.
So yeah, if Tom killed what was his name? Who
was in carrion, Barthonis, Barthonis Damadrid. Yeah, that one he
has Galdrian Rioton and Barthonis Domindrad.

Speaker 1 (01:29:18):
And Barthonis was a dark friend.

Speaker 3 (01:29:19):
Yeah, and Barthonis is the one that Tom kills because
Galdrian gets killed by someone else. I was just re
listening to this part that's right, is that he thinks
Gauldrey and killed Data and then he learns that Gldren's
already dead, so we can't kill him. And then the
innkeeper says, oh, actually, these people who you just stabbed
in the face are not Galdrians.

Speaker 1 (01:29:39):
People, they're Domindreds.

Speaker 3 (01:29:40):
Yeah, they're Baronis's people. So then Tom goes off and
kills Barthonis, who was a dark.

Speaker 1 (01:29:46):
Friend and not technically the king. I always say two kings,
but like he's.

Speaker 3 (01:29:51):
Vying for the kingship. He's trying to get the Kingship
back to House Domitrad because House Rioting has had it
since the Domitrans lost it in the war twenty years ago.
It all comes back around, right, right, right, But yeah,
it's it's funny how Tom gets a pardoned because he's cool.
But it's fine. And there's a bit more sibling style
banter between Elaine and Matt about language and coats and

(01:30:16):
it's cute and funny.

Speaker 1 (01:30:17):
And him being you know, bloody noble and she's like, well,
if you're if you don't name yourself a title, I'm
gonna give you one. I'm gonna maze. She's basically like, yeah,
I'm gonna make you a noble no matter what you say.

Speaker 3 (01:30:28):
It's like, yeah, you don't have Paren's audacity and claiming
a title. I'll make sure you get one, not knowing
he already has one. It's called Prince of the Ravens.

Speaker 1 (01:30:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, don't don't sleep on that one.

Speaker 3 (01:30:41):
And then yeah, she boots them out that way she can,
you know, have her daily midwife visit and she'll see
them for dinner in three hours. And Matt's like, that
went well. I definitely reeled her in. I came out
the winner. Tom's like sure, yeah you did, Sure buddy. Yeah,
we want me to go help you buy a coat
before dinner because he needs to get a new coat

(01:31:02):
before he has dinner with the queen, and then that's
the banter that they end the chapter on.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
I do like, so, Tom, you're gonna buy me a coat?
I didn't say i'd buy it. We're gonna go get
you a new one. You're buying you're the rich noble.

(01:31:55):
So yeah, I love that chapter. I thought that was
a really really good bad chapter Biden, probably the best
one that I think Sanderson's written. It had a lot
of the sort of OHO's the We're I'm looking for
hypocritical humor that I think Matt is so well known
for good reunion, good side characters, good plot right, good

(01:32:16):
resolution to a couple of plot lines that we've been
waiting for a while, having the dragons be made finally
and all that kind of stuff. Really really thought that
that was a good chapter. I even enjoyed the parent
one a little bit more than I thought I would,
because we had, you know, Fayiel dealing with Perilane, finally,
paren learning the wolf dream. Finally. There's just a lot
of finally' where I'm like, oh my god, finally this
is happening. And I think for a lot of people when,

(01:32:39):
especially when I first read these That's what made the
book so good. I was like, oh my god, this
is finally happening.

Speaker 3 (01:32:45):
Yeah, and we're not like last episode we were jettisoning
a lot of plots and characters out of the way.
This time we were actually moving our core stories forward.
These are the things we're not jettisoning. These are the
things that we are actually work on. This is what
we're making space for. And it's nice to have the
space for them. It is really, really nice. I did

(01:33:06):
enjoy both these chapters quite a bit, the second one
more so, but still both were good.

Speaker 1 (01:33:12):
And next week we get n Nieve's I Sidye Test.

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
Oh my god, I'm so excited. I like that chapter
a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
And don't forget this is episode five five five we
said anything, Yeah, this is five hundred and fifty five wow.
Five wow.

Speaker 3 (01:33:29):
This is a five hundred and fifty five episodes of
either book chapters or the tangents between books. That does
not include the show coverage episodes. It does not include bonus.

Speaker 1 (01:33:44):
Episodes for saken episodes.

Speaker 3 (01:33:46):
Like the Forsaken Episodes or whatever. It's only chapter episodes
and tangents. That is what the numbers have been counting.
And yeah, the podcast is five hundred and fifty five
deep amazing. That's so, that's amazing, wild, that's that's a
lot of content.

Speaker 1 (01:34:08):
I'm almost sure we're going to hit six hundred. I
don't think we're going to go much over that.

Speaker 3 (01:34:13):
Yeah, somewhere around six hundred probably.

Speaker 1 (01:34:17):
Wild, just based on how many chapters there are. Well,
you know we've got we might we might get around
six to fifty, right, just give or take. But yeah,
the binge must be insane at this point.

Speaker 3 (01:34:29):
Yeah, it's so much longer than the books themselves, so
much longer.

Speaker 1 (01:34:34):
But as always, a huge shout out and a huge
thank you to everyone who supports us on Patreon. You know,
you are the reason we're able to get to five
hundred and fifty five. You're the reason we're able to
get to like we are in shouting distance of doing
a complete spoilers podcast for every single chapter, like it's
the end is in sight in terms of like getting
through these books. And I think that's just just absolutely amazing.

(01:34:58):
And five hundred and fifty five episodes, Like, I mean,
hitting five hundred was kind of amazing, hitting half of
a thousand, but for some reason, this number is driving
it home even more that we are we have produced
so much content and like this has been going now
for We're coming up on nine years relatively soon in April, Souse,

(01:35:18):
it's six months away, but we're at eight and a
half years now, basically exactly. And that's just so long
to be doing this. And I'm so grateful for all
the support that I've gotten from everybody over all the
years talking about my favorite book series.

Speaker 3 (01:35:32):
Yeah, it's an incredible thing to be part of. And
as a celebration of that, we're going to end this
recording and go start experimentally seeing about maybe doing another podcast.
We'll let you know, We'll see.

Speaker 1 (01:35:47):
God damn it donut.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
Thank you for listening to the Wheeld of Time Spoilers podcast.
Please rate and review us on your podcast app, and
consider supporting us on Patreon for ad three episodes. Watt
Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
more podcasts from Fox and Dravenmedia, visit our website at
Foxendravenmedia dot com.

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The Strength of This Place & Talk of Dragons - Towers of Midnight chapters 18 & 19 - EP555

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Strength of This Place & Talk of Dragons - Towers of Midnight chapters 18 & 19 - EP555