The Tower Stands & To Be Forged Again- The Gathering Storm chapter 45 & 46 - EP540 - WoT Spoilers

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Anyway, do you want to get into these books, these chapters?

Speaker 1 (00:25):
You know, I think we probably should. Yeah, because there's
a lot of names, the names, a lot of eyebrows,
there's just a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
I did get stuck in a research hole that left
me barely ready by the time we began this episode.
I was really trying to figure out a few details
that took me back the Knife of Dreams. Actually, so
I have the Knife because there's a Knife of Dreams
chapter where they discover that Delana is black Aja that

(00:54):
actually has a lot of relevance to what's going on
in these chapters and where these characters are. So, yeah,
there's a lot. It ends up not being super important,
but there's a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah. Yeah, So it's a doubleheader. It's probably going to
be a pretty long one.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Got Yeah, a lot of highlights, a lot of highlights.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
So we should probably get into it. Chapter forty five.
The tower stands and our symbol is the flame of
tarvalin Igwain walked slowly through the rebel camp, wearing a
crimson gown, its skirts divided for riding, the color raised
to not a few eyebrows considering what the Red Adja

(01:36):
had done, these Eyes to Die weren't likely to wear
the hue. Even the camps serving women had noticed selling
their red and maroon dresses or cutting them up for rags.
Agwain had asked for Crimson specifically. In the Tower, sisters
had formed the habit of wearing only their own aja's color,
and the practice had helped fuel the division. While it

(01:56):
was good to be proud of your AJA affiliation, it
was danger to begin assuming that you couldn't trust anyone
wearing other colors. Agwain was all ajas today. The red
symbolized many things to her. The impending reunification with the
Red Aja, a reminder of the division that needed to
be righted, a sign of the blood that would be spilled,

(02:16):
the blood of good men who fought to defend the
White Tower, the blood of the dead. Eyes to Die
beheaded not an hour ago, by Agwain's order.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Hardcore skirts divided for writing they're not pants, but they're
not not not not pants?

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Make that make sense?

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, so this is her being bad ass. I mean
she's walking in after having just like the blood of
you know, fifty, I said, eye on her hands she's
just like, yeah, what's the worst the Emily can do? Well,
she murdered fifty eye, said Eye the day she came
back on Power to Power, So you.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Know, maybe don't piss her, don't pisser off, because yeah,
you went into the tower basically completely destroyed the other ambulance, right,
and then came back and before lunch had killed fifty sisters.
Like that is terrifying, absolutely terrifying. Like even if you

(03:17):
know you're not a dark friend, you're like, well, maybe
I am, Like I don't know if she says I am,
and maybe I am.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Like it's like Romayne is completely coward right, Like the
two of them are just absolutely okay, whatever we can do, Amrelyn,
like we are, we are your servants, right, there's no
more competing really, the only competition is for her favor
as far as I can tell.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, who can be the most perfect kiss ass? Because
they're both vying for the keeper yep, right, that's what
they're They're both they become a little more obstinate once
she has a keeper in that position, it's not available.
But yeah, for now, they are out competing each other
for being good at their job, which is supporting her,
and yeah, it's played off like it's just their ambition,

(04:02):
But how much of it is also just a wee
bit of boot shaking terror?

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah? Yeah, I had them all in a confusion where
I was like, Swan, I found a great Serpent ring?
When did Swan lose a great Serpent ring?

Speaker 1 (04:12):
And then I was like, oh, she found literally had
the same brain.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Fat She found a Guain's ring. Which wouldn't she have
had that on her when she was taken?

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, somehow Swan, I.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Don't found it in the mud.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, of that, that doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
And somehow Palpatine returned.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Because the ring was taken by the tower Isidie. So
it's like probably in the Mistress of Novice's study. You know,
I don't think Swan sighed Deetrod over there to get
one particular gold ring. I think she might have just
handed Agwain one from the stack because Isaida I have
a stash of unassigned gold rings as a rule.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
That's it felt very good to have it on her finger. Again,
does not sound like it's a different.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
I know, But when when did Swan detour just to
get her specific ring?

Speaker 2 (05:03):
I correct me if I'm wrong, But I think there
was a line where she like goes to where she
was captured and finds the ring in the mud. Am
I wrong about that?

Speaker 1 (05:13):
I think you're making that up.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think, okay, fair.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Enough, pretty sure that doesn't happen. It would be very cinematic.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
But yeah, no, I don't. I got nothing. I got nothing.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
It's it's yeah, I'm not sure because they didn't give
it back to her because she's still a novice, right
in terms of so like, I don't. I don't know
how Swan had found her great serpentary. Maybe she used
Vora Saw and Grill to teleport in just for the ring.
I because she did go on a mission to get

(05:45):
the oath Rod.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Someone did go into the tower to get the oath Throad.
I don't think it was a Gwinn. I bet it
was Swan because she would have had Vora Song. I
don't know. I'm actually not sure who went to get that.
But in theory that mission could have gotten her ring,
even they wouldn't have been in the same place.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Why there wasn't a scene where somebody gave her the
ring back to her and she had like tucked away.
But she wasn't wearing it yet or something like that when.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
She was don't for call, I'm confused.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
This feels very feels like a tangent.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, anyway, not the important part.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Of this chapter, no, no.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, So we're getting a timestamp that literally so much
has happened in the last twenty four hours, right, the
Shawn shann attack, Agwayne's return, and now we're headed off
to do war like literally in twenty four hours. This
is the next day.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Oh, by the way, so did you notice that one
of that Shiriam's death fulfills one of men's men's prophecies, Yeah,
men's visions.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, yeah, Shiiam bathed in golden light, and you're like
that sounds nice, And then you come to this part
and it's like, oh, that wasn't nice at all. That
was the moment of her death.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
It was gold and silver light because it's a silvery
axe and a golden sun.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, it's it's like, what a beautiful prophecy for such
a horrifying moment, you know, like, it's this beautiful vision
she has doesn't provoke any feelings of dread whatsoever. And
then you get to it you're like, ah.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Ah, yeah, not always what you think they're going to be,
those prophecies mm.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
And Agwayne has a hard line in the sand that
she is not going to have her Eyes to Die
do any actual attacking unless the Tower Eyes to Die
join in first. She is going to make a gateway
for the assault.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Herself, which is yeah, which she isn't sworn on the.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right up against that line. One, it's right up against
her own line. But still she's like, if Elia starts it,
we will go in swinging, but we will not throw
the first fireball.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
And here's what we get the line. Only three members
of the Black Aja had been discovered beyond the ones
Varren had located. So like Varren got like fifty and
like missed three. So that's pretty good percentage.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Less than ten percent percent of them being missed is like, yeah,
that feels pretty freaking good.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, no, that's that's that's pretty amazing percentage wise.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
So the Black Couch is incredibly secretive. That's wild that
she was able to expose fifty and only three got
away or three were missed.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Because like with their hearts and everything, it's not like
she can go and be like, so who's on the
black oh ja, right, who like she would have to
like follow the tracks for years, like knowing who the
two black od Jaw that she knows are, figure out
who they meet with, right, and then figure out who
they meet with, And like, I bet she had to
follow that chain all the way down for years and
years and years.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, it would have taken decades, Like I'm sure she
did not consider her tally completely done, like she told Agwayne,
I probably missed a few, like I'm sure it was
an ongoing project that she just you know, time ran out.
And I also the line where she talks about she
understands how the IEO could laugh at a beating because

(08:59):
she'd rather get beaten than have to order the execution
of women she had liked and worked with, which is like, yeah,
I'm a wuss, But ordering the execution of people because
their dark friends does sound significantly worse than like a
beating you can heal from, because like that means they're
permanently dark friends and they're permanently dead. Yeah you can't.

(09:22):
Like not that the beating changed anything, but just like
she keeps escalating how she understands the ideals embraceive pain,
it keeps deepening for her over time.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, I think, And just like the grief of someone
dying combined with the guilt of ordering their death, but
like having the duty to do it and knowing it's
the right thing to do, I can't imagine, right, Like, but.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
The betrayal of like they they were not working for
you this whole time, they were working against you, Like
it's too many emotions mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
And just the numbers too, is kind of incredible, right
like that. That's the other thing that's just stunning is
how normalized it is for traders in this tower to
be in power.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
It's the draw of the dark is very alluring.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
Apparently they talk about the warders here. You know, perhaps
the innocent could be convinced and remain alive long enough
to throw themselves in the last battle. I think this
is the last time they're ever mentioned, Like there's no
boh and then that the group of warders of the
Black Odjah through themselves to death to protect the sisters

(10:33):
for one more second, you know, something like that would have.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
Been like, we don't even know if they take the offer,
much less what they do with it, right right, that's
I mean, I guess that's just leaving a bunch of
open space for fanfic, right, but.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
A lot of head cannon going on here, a lot
of head cannon going on.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, it would have been nice to have this thread
get followed up on because it is really bleak. The
fact that some of these men are not dark friends
but are health still having to suffer the the death
drama and like to know what happens to them would
have been nice, would have added even more weight to
the water bond. I think we.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Really do lack a lot of any Sean sorry, sea
folk interactions in these last couple of books. The sea folk,
I mean, they get the bowl the wins, and they
kind of worked to help Rand to control the weather
during the last battle. But Sanderson doesn't write a lot
of sea folk perspective.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
He's not a big one for closure of no number
of things that Jordan left open. He closes a few things,
but there's a lot of things that I think Jordan
would have given us more closure on.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, but we also would have had five more.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Books and no one would have been mad.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
About it, So oh, are you kidding me? Yes, they
would have been absolutely they would have been.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
No one whose opinion I care about, Well, I.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
Think even back in the day, I would have been
mad about that. I would be like, come on, finish
the series already now obviously not right, but now I'll
give me more and more and more.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yes, I am speaking with the smugness of hindsight.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah right, absolutely, Like I said, I still remember when
he started bringing Forsaken back, and I was like, really,
you're never going to finish these books if we can't
kill off any of the Forsaken, because you can't finish
the books till you kill kill off all the Forsaken. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
I was in my young, naive and voracious reader part
of my escapist adolescence, so I was just like, more books, more, more,
more more. I did not have many thoughts beyond more.
M I'm older and wiser now and I understand the
concept of ending a thing once it's done.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
But oh so.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, next we've got Romaine and Agwayne deciding to do
the Gateway. More stuff about Romaine. Then the next thing
I've got is the Black Towers. Is this the part
that connects back to Knife of Dreams?

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, this is the stuff that can expect the Knife
of Dreams.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
Okay, Because I did not do my homework, I just
highlighted the words that seemed interesting. So please tell us
what's going on here?

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Okay, So, as best I can tell, there's a group
of women who were sent to the delegation to bond
these guys as warders. Right, this is all decided. This
is Knife of Dreams, chapter twenty three. This is the
one where Romanda remembers that Delana Halima are dark friends. Right,
she figures that out right, So it's that sort of
that chapter. And there's a lot of politics that happened

(13:37):
before that, and as part of that, one of the
things they do is vote to send a bunch of
sisters to the Black Tower as a delegation to bond
them as warders.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Right, because they send an envoy to Saladar because Rand
is offering for compensatory bonding.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
Right, Yeah, I think that's what it is.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah. Then the voice says a man just tried to
listen in, and that cascades the Halima reveal, right right,
right right, because there is a man there who can
feel Sidark or Sideine being channeled and that's why Helima's
probe gets detected.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
So and it seems like Lelaane is the one who
arranges to get rid of all of Agwaine's supporters by
including them in this delegation. Okay, and she does that
basically to solidify her own power under Agwayne.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
That's what is best I could figure out is to
why those four basically the four supporters niss Al, Myreel, Phelan, Antheodrin,
some of which were not the most appropriate one already
has a warder or two of which are you know,
novice or still accepted whatever part right accepted, Like, it
doesn't make sense for them to be part of that
delegation to go bond a bunch of Black Tower warders.

(14:51):
And they do eventually give up their spots to other
sisters and don't bond anybody from the Black Tower.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
So did they come back to the tower, and then
there's just there's there's a big kind of gap with
that delegation, and then they're just kind of in the
last battle, so there's not there's some some gaps around this.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
They go into the Black Tower after it's liberated by
Pavara and Andral right and become part of that delegation basically,
but they're not really involved in it. They're just kind
of sitting outside the walls for most of that.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
So they're not part of the time being thrown out,
taking people over, turning the eyes to die. They're not
present for any of them.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
No, because they're all like Pavara is like the only
one that survives that.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
Right, Yeah, so the rest of them are just camping
outside the walls while their sisters get turned.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Right because they're outside that like bub because there's the dome, right,
the spike that that prevents traveling in and out, and
I think they're outside of that.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
Yeah, yeah, the dream spikepike. Yeah, that's such a wild
duex Machina to just throw in at the end of
the books. Oh, by the way, there's this thing that
only exists it's in the dream world that completely changes
the rules of traveling. It's like Brandon Sanderson was like, oh, no,
traveling's too powerful. I need something to nerve traveling.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Well, you know what. To me, it does make sense
that there would be a terror on real that protects
your home from someone traveling into it.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
It does really fit the cosmology of the world, right.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Like, I love the dream Spike. It's weird that there's
two of them. I would rather he just had done
one of them, right, the fact that he pulls to.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Check a box of twelve right right.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Right, right. But you know whatever, I do like the
concept of the dream Spike. I will not never complain
about that. I like the way it was used. I
like the way paren the way allowed Telerondriad to interact
with the real world. Like, I think all of that
is really well done. Like it's one of the reasons
though I think the second book is is really is
certainly better than this one overall. Right, there's good scenes

(16:48):
in this one for sure.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah. Yeah, So the dream Spike is coming into play
in the Black Tower sometime in the near future or
right around now. Yeah, but is that maybe why they're yeah, now,
that is this because it's happened, because they're like, uh,
what is it? Don't they say, like with traveling, they
should have been back by now, I should have sent

(17:10):
word yep. So the dreamspike is in play at this
point because there's nothing else that explains it. That that
is the silence is the Dreamspike. Oh I had not
quite put that together.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Okay, cool, Yeah, I don't think I had either until
we started talking about it.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
That's interesting too that Aguayn's supporters were sent away again,
not by a dark friend or by a black Ajia plot,
but just by people ostensibly on the light side just
being ambitious and petty and short sighted.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
Shocking sabotaged by your own side.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
That never happens.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
The next thing I have is Shariam wasn't lying about
the Taran Greel, the dream Tereran Greral going missing.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yes, I was feeling very gratified to read this because
we were real confused about it a couple recordings ago.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
I'm still a little confused as to why Shariam lost
a pinky right because she reported nineteen there were twenty
originally there's nineteen in storage because she knows that the
one or did we get confused about it again? They're
all gone whatever it is, and we think that Suwan
still has one of them, and that's the reason that
Sherrion lost a pinky, because it was one less than

(18:17):
was reported. Fucks, and just because they're all gone, well, they.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Still would have the one that was with Swan.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
But that's not what they're reporting, right. They're reporting they're
all gone because nobody knows the one is with Swan.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Does that ever come up again?

Speaker 2 (18:31):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
I think because that's how Swan and a GWayne were
meeting in a GWayne knows because that's how they were
meeting in the dream too, right, Right for her imprisonment,
because Swan didn't have normal access, Yeah, because she is
tasked with taking nineteen of them after the supposed loss
of the one that Leanna supposed that they had that
Swan actually had, So why did she lose a pink?

Speaker 2 (18:54):
She truthfully says, they're twenty eighteen for the hall, one
for her and one for the other Leanne hand when
she was captured. So I think that and the nineteen
they say are missing, right, So that means she probably
didn't get the one. It's just one Leanne has because
I think she still has that because I don't think
that she knew it was passed on to Suan, so

(19:17):
she couldn't get it from Leanne.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
Right, So no one knows that that one is. That's
the thing is, like why would Leanne have had it
with her when she went to do the mission, Like
would you not leave the Turan grioll at home?

Speaker 2 (19:31):
I don't know, no, I mean, it was just assumed
that they searched her cabin and didn't find it, so
it was assumed she had it on her.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
And then yeah, but again, like she told the forsaken
that there were nineteen nineteen available.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
That's a good point. Yeah, so maybe it just took
her fingers being like, man, I don't care if you
can't get the one from Leanne, if she's captured too bad,
you should have figured out a way to get it. Yeah,
that's that's the only thing I can think is just
like that, you know, malicious compliance about like get the all.
I don't care if it's not possible. I don't care
if you only got nineteen. I don't care if the
other one's completely out of reach in the tower. You

(20:08):
should have gotten them all.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Those are things I remember, sure. I'm specifically thinks all
nineteen of them a question mark, question mark exclamation put
an exclamation point, like nineteen was the number she should
have been like, I'm just so confused because she specific
remember the audiobook, the way that Kate Reading's voice goes
all nineteen of them. I remember that very specifically. So

(20:30):
I'm just I'm so controlled. This feels like doing a
math problem, and it's stressing me out.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Your guess as good as mine. Maybe she just got
punished for being slow or something like that.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Sure, sure, somebody give us a short explanation, we'll read
it into the episode.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, they did that. She like doesn't know how to
cover it up. It's like, how could she cover this up?
Like she took them, it was recorded that she took them,
or would she what would she do with them? It's
like she wasn't thinking that far. She was just panicking
and took them.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
She didn't get to think that far. She was being
burned as an asset by her handler. You know, Hansa
didn't care if that was the end of her ability
to be a useful tool.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
She just wanted the tools mm hmm' just like I
think at that point she would have had to flee
if discovered.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
Exactly exactly, and Massanna couldn't care less. Yeah. So Ramanda
then is like, so do you think that she was
right about there being a forsaken in the tower, and
a Queen's like, yeah, probably, not mentioning very carefully, not
mentioning that she knows for a fact based on Varren's
reporting that that is super what's happening. Because she's like,
I'm just going to keep those cards so close to

(21:43):
the jest so close.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
And unfortunately that does misleader a little bit about who's
killing people in the tower, right, because she's like, Oh,
I'm looking for a forsaken loose and you've got these
Sean Chan assassins loose in the tower. Yeah, the blood knives.
So there's that little bit of misdirection that ends up
sending her in the wrong direction, and let's a bunch
of fly said I die. Frankly, it's one of her
bigger failures in my opinion, that she like hyper focuses

(22:10):
on the forsaken even though a lot of these murders
are happening without any channeling.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah. I don't even think it's that big of a
failure on her part because she doesn't even know what's happening.
She just fucks up.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Real Time Wiki is saying she lost a finger because
she didn't get the twentieth one.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
But she does. In the audiobook, she specifically squeaks about
the number nineteen as being what she's requested to get,
So the Real Time Wiki is wrong.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Well, just because I think she's wrong, she probably shows
up with all nineteen and she's like, well, where's the
twentieth one? She's like I told you, it's in the tower.
I can't get it. He's like two fucking bad. Gave
me that pinky.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
That would be very very dark friendy. It doesn't seem
like Masana per se, but it does seem very dark
friendly in general. So maybe she was having a bad day.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
I've been convinced that actually, if you had to lose
a finger, you shouldn't lose your pinky. You should lose
your pointer.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Finger.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
You had to choose because of the way grips work, right, Like,
you know.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
I actually see what you mean. The punter is kind
of the most redundant of all.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
And everything you can do with your pointer you can
do with your middle finger.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
Right, Yeah, that's disquieting.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
But the pinky actually is a large contributor to your
grip strength.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah. The ring finger really barely pulls its weight at all,
like truly.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
And the pointer just doesn't doesn't do anything to do
with that, almost barely affects your grip strength at all.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
When it comes to grip. Yeah, no, you're totally right. No,
we can't lose the middle finger and then tuck. Then
how are you going to tell people how you feel?

Speaker 2 (23:37):
That's right? I mean that's like half my vocabulary right there.
Let's see. So, yeah, we got we got forsaken in
the tower. Gowin following going wasn't certain what to do
with him yet. You never will be just right, like Jesus.
I know he's going to save your life a couple

(23:58):
of times. Fine, but he's also going to end it.
Don't bond him as a order. It's just like he
should be another soldier, it should be another guard, right like.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, So she's being very cautious about what Alida might
do because she doesn't want to get captured like a
dumb ass again, you know which fair. You know she
doesn't know what's happened to Alida. It makes sense to
use a double dose of caution given how it went
last time. You made assumptions about what Alida could and
couldn't do to you.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Because they're riding to war basically, right, this is this
is the end of the siege. There's no more point in.
Brin makes this point later, there's no point in continuing
the siege if they've got gateways because you're not blocking anything.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, exactly exactly. She has this vanishingly small window and
she's going to do it. But she's going to do
it safely and not get killed, and her moment of
victory I approve of that.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Then there's an interaction here between her and Suan where
she's basically like, oh, yeah, I see you took a
order again, but you're still in the doghouse.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, basically like congratulations on getting a warder, but also like,
we have a relationship to repair and it's not going
to be done today.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
So then they get to the walls after that conversation
with Swan, which goes on for a while, and they
noticed that just like the forces on the walls are
just not really there.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
There's perhaps a thousand sleep deprived, beleaguered soldiers in total
versus Brin's well rested ten thousand, and Brin's like, this
feels off. This doesn't feel like the battle we were
setting up for. We're missing something, and Igwain agrees, and.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
I think they're missing that there's no leader, Like the
Alida has been captured, so there's no leadership inside the tower,
so there's no one to get the troops up and
on the walls.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Well, and the leadership is in the act of deciding
that they want to essentially surrender, right right, even if
they're like what leadership there is is all pointed at
the stand down an option, So like the soldiers are
out there because their squad leader says, I guess we
continue to defend our section.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Of wall, right exactly right?

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Well, the eyes did I dicker inside about like exactly
like what letterhead they want to put on the invitation
or whatever? I get so annoyed with the tower, is said,
I for how long it takes them to like down
and deal with these terrified soldiers who were looking at
certain death and just they take their sweet time.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
Remember the debate we saw with them in the last
couple chapters, right that I think is happening at this time.
I think we've got overlapping time where like this hour
where she's waiting is when that debate is happening.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, more or less, and I'm just like, get it together, women.
Agwayne is holding back on the strength of a sheer
reluctance to be the Omorlin who attacked that is narrow,
narrow margins.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
So yeah, Brinn says, you know, I basically got an
hour before like we're going to be fighting, you know,
before it starts to get dark and then fighting doesn't
make sense in the dark, right, and then we'll have
to wait for tomorrow. And then that sort of like
defeats the surprise because everyone's going to be rested and
everything right. And she waits the hour in debates and debates,
and then waits a little bit more and just as

(27:15):
she's about to, you know, in typical movie.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
Style, too movie perfect.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, too movie perfect, close to a movie perfom.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
I'm sorry, this is a book. Stop it. Oh wow,
we've got some We've got some quotes in the chat,
thank you. I have to scroll up to see who
this is, because wow, athlon, of course it's Athlon. Okay,
we had twenty, but what was with the woman Leanne
who was captured? That leaves us with nineteen.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
So it does seem to be that Sheriam is misinterpreting
what Masana is saying, right, because Masaana says, give me
all the meals a fingerte for each one you don't capture,
and then she goes all nineteen and it's like, is
that think I think Masana meant all twenty?

Speaker 1 (28:03):
H shit, I think you're right. I think she totally
rules lawyered herself into a little sadistic tree at the
end of a long day. Oh my god, I never
noticed that, but that is absolutely what happened. That is
absolutely what happened. That isn't even headcan and that is
iron clad evidence on the page. Wow, thank you Athlon

(28:26):
and Seth because uh, hell of a take. But no,
Massana totally would rules lawyer her way into just doing
a little cold torture.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Just yeah, here's the nineteen you asked for. No, no,
I said all of them, but but all of them
is nineteen No all you said there was one in
the tower that counts. No, chop chop chop.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yeah, that is so oh my god. Masana would rules
lawyer her way into a little, a little pinky removal
like she I just don't see her as going out
of her way, but if it's a rules lawyering moment,
Masana definitely would go out of her way. Like for sure,
I know because Massa is my favorite for sake, and
I like being a rules lawyer.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
That is the type of foresake, and she is Yeah,
that's totally you're right. Yeah, and so.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah the eyes did I come out and say, igwaite alvire,
we would like to surrender please, and thank you and
Igwan goes for real though, what about Alaia? And they're like,
shan Chin, It's amazing how much information They just boom
across the river at each other.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
This is yelling at each other, right, Yeah, this is
basically catching up on the two plot lines we've been
reading the whole time, which is what's going on on
your side. Yeah, and we've got the ten sitters, two
from each Adjah except for the Blue and the Red.
The Blukes they don't exist the Red because that would
be insulting and they're in disgrace right now. Two because
there's a bunch of people missing and captured.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
They have a real lack of people to pick from at.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
This point, not to mention a munch that have fled,
which we'll find out about in the next chapter, because
they've heard about the purge happening out in the camps.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, yeah, basically, and yeah yeah. So then Aguyn demands
a couple of things, that you'll let the army enter
and that you'll reinstate the blue and not be dicks
about it, to which and Dya says, we definitely figured
you would ask that, and yes, super cool, of course,
no debate like unconditional surrender.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Basically, I would like to revoke all of the mad
Woman's policies. Sure, yeah, no problem.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, I would like to control z this entire block
of bullshit. Yes, way ahead, you already done. Good to go.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
And then there's just there's a whole lot of sort
of symbolism starting here and going on to the next
chapter about how the tower stands but it's bleeding and wounded,
but the it's healing and just you know, it all
kind of represents the holes in it from the black
Odd job. But it's like you've got these new Tower novices,
this new group of novices coming in who are going
to fill the hall again, like it's it's there's a

(31:01):
lot of symbolism going into this next chapter.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah, and I think we can just roll right into
chapter forty six to be forged again because it's literally
just jump cut ten minutes and Aguena is now in
the green room for the Hall of the Tower, basically
the Omberlin's green room.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
And after crossing the bridge to Tarvallin right like they
invited her in, she she crossed. Now she's in.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
And in this chapter she thinks about or she extorts
the Isesidie to realize that, you know, blacksmiths talk about
how you need to reforge a sword from scraps, and
I'm like, so, why is that so hard to swallow?
And Rand suggests it.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
With the god Nils.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Literally made this argument like I mean, the part repair
and has to walk her through her own analogy from
a week prior is just like what.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
That interaction is frustrating for me. It's like she goes
through all this trouble to like reunite the tower and
you're like, oh, finally it's reunited behind a GWayne and
the dragon reborn, and then she just kind of is
a dick to him, and it's like it's one of
the reasons I think a lot of people do tend
to not like a GWayne. Is this just like but

(32:26):
you were supposed to be there, Like the way that
Niinive is there for Rand in the last battle, it
feels like a GWayne isn't, And like she's there in
the battle itself, but leading up to it, she's just
this opposition and he uses her and she gathers all
this opposition and then he changes her. Like there's a
whole thing to it. I get why he wrote it
the way he did, but it makes her appear very

(32:47):
unlikable and unreasonable for an unreasonable amount of time.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
Well, and especially because it doesn't feel in character with
like what she's doing here right exactly. It's not like
she's always been like that, Like she suddenly beats comes
way less reasonable than she was. Like really suddenly like this,
Agwayne feels like she should be gonna get around to
hanging out with Randon being cool. And then when that
actually happens, as very different result comes out and it

(33:14):
feels very odd and upsetting. But that will not happen
quite yet.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
I really do think this is Peakagwayin for me, Like
he really nailed Agwayne here.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, no, I agree. There are some speech sections in
this chapter that do need to be read and full
because it really is. This is as Peakagwayine as her
blasting rockin out of the sky with Vora Saw and Greel.
It's the same level of just this is what we wanted,
This is glorious, all hail.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
So she's talks a little bit about how like, yeah,
she's got to redo the ceremony, but the ceremony is
not that important, Like getting it right isn't super important.
The decisions have been made, but the symbolism of redoing
the ceremony is important, right, so that both sides get
a chance to raise her up as Amrelin. Right.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
It's not for her, it's for the other Eyes to die, right,
She's been only raised by half of them, and that's
not fair. So but yeah, she's not worried about getting
the steps wrong. I love the fact that she's being
instructed by a librarian Brown who literally could give a
rat's ass about all of the drama and turmoil. Like
she's a loyalist because she doesn't come out of her

(34:23):
office except when there's a new Ombrelind to raise, and
so she didn't leave with the rebellion. But she was
never loyal to Alida. She was loyal to being an archivist.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
She's loyal to the books, which didn't move, so that's
why she's there.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah. I just love like she is quintessential Brown, right,
completely lost in the books and her own world and
just truly doesn't care about anything outside of this one
job she has.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
And as far as I can tell, this is a
singular mention of her as well in the.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Series single Serving Eyes to Die, if ever there was one.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Serving eyes to eye. Yeah. So, and then the next
part is I think a little hard to swallow, but
really necessary, right that, Like the rebels have to apologize
for rebelling, and it's like you might have had a
good reason for doing it, but it was still a crime.
And so yeah, like and I feel like that that

(35:17):
happens a lot. I don't know if that happens in
political in courtrooms very much, but it feels like it
should write this idea that like, yeah, you killed the
person in self defense, but you still kill them and
you might want to apologize for that. No, maybe bad,
that's a bad example. I'm trying. Yeah, you're right, I'm
trying to I paused too long on that. I'm trying

(35:38):
to try to come up with a good one.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
No, I feel what you mean, because it feels like, no,
that rebellion had to happen, but also, in order for
the institution to properly heal, you have to acknowledge the
illegality of what. I don't know. I'm enough of an
abolitionist and an anarchist that I find the whole let's

(36:00):
venerate the institution above all else things distasteful, which makes
it hard for me to fully inhabit the logic here.
But I think it matters more because this is institutional
This isn't an individual person on person conflict. This is
in institutions splitting down the middle and then needing to
come back together. And they're all operating in their positions

(36:23):
essentially in this institution rather than as like people. So
I can kind of accept it for that, but I
don't know. Man Alida really like it helps that she
dresses the hall down later. She really scolds both sides
and tells them both that they were a problem, and like,

(36:44):
you know, again, one side was empirically the real problem
and the other side simply made complicated choices to respond.
So I don't know that it's fair to call both
sides equally culpable, but at the same time do that
is what allows both sides to set the whole thing
in the past, And like, is it a necessary fiction

(37:08):
that we need in order to actually do the future?
Maybe it's worth it. I don't know. I don't know.
I little white lies to help an institution get unhooked
from the past seem acceptable, I guess on the morality scale.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Maybe a better example is if you have like two
little kids fighting, and you make them apologize to each other,
and it's like, yeah, you know, one of them probably
started it, but like it doesn't matter, Like they're just
they're little kids who are fighting and overwhelmed and are
emotionally just can't control themselves and so need to apologize
in order to move on and play again together. And

(37:44):
I think comparing the isid I to little children is
more appropriate.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's silly, because institutions should have more maturity
than developing brains. But the isid I have empirically proven
that is not always the truth, even though you would
think it should be. It isn't men.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Talk only if they meant it, only if they actually
meant it.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
The thing with I mean to get to a more
real example. The thing with de radicalizing someone is it
has to be their choice and you have to be
willing to let them come back. Like no one has
ever deradicalized because you were a meanie pants to them.
The only people who have ever deradicalized themselves are people
who felt that they could start talking to you. Is,

(38:33):
start talking to someone and like start to work their
way out. Like, you can't deradicalize someone by saying you
are beyond repair and you are beyond reach like it,
they will not deradicalize from whatever their stances.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
But fine, I guess I wasn't a good mother anyway.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
But you also need real repair, which involves like restitution
and changed behavior, and you know, not to be you
need to change your behavior like true change behavior, which
like in Agwain's case, you know, the behavior in question
was a light of being terrible and the rebellion against her.

(39:12):
So if we can all agree that we're not going
to continue those behaviors, which is an easy cell in
this case, then you know it's possible to do the
other parts of apology. But like, yeah, people need to
actually stop doing the thing that caused the need for
the apology in order for the words to mean anything.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
Well, and you know, technically the overthrow of the Ambulin
was legal, right, so the letter of the law. They
followed the letter of the law. Despite all the flaws
in that pointed out by Agwayne, it was the letter
of the law. So the rebellions were technically breaking the
Tower law when they rebelled.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Right, and carrying that caveat forward as a cause for
grievance is a recipe for disaster, So better to just
be like apologized for breaking the law for good reasons anyway,
moving on.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
So that I can pardon you, right, and then no
one can ever come at you. It's like this is
this literally like the apology is almost there so that
you can say, see, they apologized, I'm pardoning them. No
one can really talk about it anymore, no one can
bring it up anymore. Right, So it's it's almost a
way of like just acknowledging that to get it out
of the way and legally get it out of the

(40:22):
way as well.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, she's taking all the air out of those sales,
just completely puncturing those balloons.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Like no, because you can see how you like prosecuting
one half of the tower over this schism.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
That's a permanent rift, it's a permanent othering. She has
to get people to stop othering each other after they
have been very violently othering each other. It's a hard ask,
and yeah, for both sides to feel put upon. I mean,
as Matt often tells us, right, the best deal between
horse traders is where both people think that they got

(40:56):
the better deal, where both people think that they had
to compromise. Right, you won't both parties to feel more
or less the same emotionally, walking away whatever you have
to do to get there. That's how it's a good deal.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
There's a Golin section. He wants to come with her.
They go, oh, is this your order? She goes nope
and walks away.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah. I'm like, could this not be the last time
we see him?

Speaker 2 (41:23):
He's like, you can't come? Wait here? Okay? Bye?

Speaker 1 (41:25):
Like, yeah, which is water things? Right, She's got to
go do all of the tower stuff. Warders don't get
to come in. And then yeah, she thinks briefly about
how in her accepted testing she actually experienced this moment
standing at these doors and going in, which is a
nice callback to book two.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
I also like that she exchanges her boots for slippers.
There's this like moment of like, she's no longer external
to the tower. She's inside the tower again, So she
has slippers on.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Oh she goes from her outdoor shoes to her indoor shoes.
I didn't even think about that. Yeah, wow, so symbolic,
so appropriate because she's inhabiting the tower again. Yeah, and
also now she can't be out gallivanting having adventures in
her working boots. She's to wear the soft, delicate indoor
boots of a powerful woman.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
So I'm laughing at and then talks, you, I stepped
in a Gawain chapter. I didn't even know it was there.
I thought it was an Gwain chapter. Just a little,
just a little just it's just you just get a whiff,
you like, did I? You're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I
did a little bit. Hold only scrape only scrape. I
want to get that goal on off of me.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
And then she goes into the hall and sees the
most symbolically fortuitous piece of damage that the tower during
the Shawn Jan attack. There's this blasted out hole in
the wall that just perfectly missed the omberline seat and
frames Dragon mount. It's really cinematic, and I'm not even
mad about it because it looks really cool. In my mind,

(42:56):
it does look really cool. And then she puts a
rose window in it later because she's like, yeah, that
looks really cool, let's do that.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
And so they've they've painted the throne to have all
seven colors, but they haven't replaced the three blue add
jaw seats, so there's not twenty one seats, there's only eighteen.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
I think the floor is still six spiraled. They only
did the throne or something like, or they got the
and they got the stole has seven colors because that
was not destroyed. It still existed somewhere.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yeah, someone just s tucked it away for like yeah,
right where we'll eventually have the blue a jaw.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Back right, Yeah, totally. So the room is definitely still
a working construction zone, totally, lot of levels.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Well it's been twenty four hours and a lot of
people were wounded and exhausted and like yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, yeah, there's still just a blaze blasted open hole
throwing wind into the room. Right. They're doing this whole
thing with like essentially in an indoor outdoor combo situation.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
And so you then what you've got is a list
of sitters who are sitting on the throne there, like,
of those they're not sitters, Yeah, these are sitters. Sitters.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah, the eleven sitters there should be twenty one under
ordinary circumstances, there are eleven possible. It's a wild bit
of damage in chaos that they're going through right now.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
So you've got Sarin Docene, you'r Kiri Suana, and then
the other six the according to just the wiki is
Julianne Chevin and Danya, Rina Rubindi and Faryen.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
I recognize all those names, I think.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Probably, So that's the list of the eleven Sitters who
are still there to have the vote. I didn't really
look into a lot of them at this point, but
a lot of these names are very familiar. I mean
Serene and Docene Hunter. Yeah. The Black Counch of Hunters
is a good group there, Yeah, because a lot of
those were part of that group.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, and I think some of the other ones are
also their Adja head sure. Possibly, Yeah, we've seen all
of them. They're not single serving eyes.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
No, no, no, these are all ones that have popped
up multiple times. And same thing with these the Black
Sitters sisters who have fled. Right, You've got Tallene who
fled weeks ago, Evan Ellen, Velina, Siedor and Duhara. These
are all actually pretty significant Isidie in the books who
have then been declared black, who are now determined to

(45:30):
be black Aja and have fled for various reasons.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
Right, and then there's a couple of other Eyes to
Die who are missing and because of the timing, Iguaine
is wondering if they're black Aja, and you know, in
the case of Pavara, we know she's not.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
No no, no, yeah, because.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Like a whole bunch of reds went on that secret mission.
They weren't all black Auja, but the timing makes it confusing.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Javindra and Parvara were not. They disappeared before it was.
But Duhara is Eveleene is Agwayne kills Evelyn until her
run Riod in Towers of Midnight.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Ah yeah, yeah, let's see.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
I don't have us where Tolene ends up, but she's
Duhara tries to uh woo Elaine. Right, she's over and
that's where she is.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yeah, she's an and or so.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
And then Velena and Sidora were just on the list
and I think they might be she flinches when Alvin
enters a room earlier. So there's like a Velena You're like, oh,
we got a little clue there. And Sidor let's see
Agwayne kills her and tell her run Riod. So yeah,
this is just just some black sisters that we get

(46:42):
that either end up in battle or kind of become
part of the last battle. So I'm glad, I'm glad
he did that. I'm glad he let some of them
escape to become the dread Lords in the last battle.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yeah, that was satisfying for sure. You want to see that. No,
they got away, that's gonna be a problem. Oh no,
it was in fact a problem.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
I want that, And like, you know, can imagine what
would have happened if she hadn't stopped fifty of them, right,
that's a huge force of especially considering how few I
said ei there actually are left. But yeah, I think
there's another like one hundred and fifty out there somewhere,
because there was like a bunch that escaped from the
tower and a bunch that were just on the loose already.

(47:23):
So there's a good amount in the last battle for sure.
Maybe it's one hundred now, so yeah, yeah, eleven let's see.
So Agwayne before the ceremony is like, have Sylviana brought
in here right, like because she wants to raise her
as keeper, and everyone else is like, oh, she's gonna
punish her, But it's like, no, she's going to raise
her up his keeper because she's probably all the good reasons.

(47:46):
I think it's one of the better choices she makes, honestly,
and trying to reunite the Tower.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
No, this goes a long way in terms of healing
the deep, fundamental, subconscious rifts that have been sprung up
in the Tower. To choose a red loyalist as keeper
is like, there's not a bigger compromise you can make
as the former rebel leader who was raised by a
collection of blues. You know, there's just no deeper way

(48:11):
to say that's in the past now.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
So the ceremony happens. I don't have a lot of
notes on that other than they all they're all a
little scared of her. So they all stand right away.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, the ones who pledge for her at the beginning,
they stand right away, like you know, there's just yeah,
it all goes very smoothly and quickly. Agwaine thinks about
how she's gonna have to be firm with them, like
firm leadership, a firm hand. And I'm just like, man,
she's got some backbone, Like she is so young looking
at this room full of some of the most powerful

(48:45):
women in the word, being like, these girls need to
get settled down.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Children.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Peak a Gwain, just peak a Gwain. That she looks
at them and goes, yeah, I can take them.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
So they raise her to the ambulan seat.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
No fuss, no mus no right. Nobody tries to make
her do the foot washing, asking to serve thing. They
need her right, And she thinks about it too, Like
she looks under the ceremony and sees that, like they're
all scared, not of her, but of the world, and
they desperately want an omorline. And that is what actually
helps them sleep at night, is knowing there's an omorline. So,

(49:23):
you know, there's a lot of reasons to stand up.
She might kill you or the world might kill you.
She's the only thing standing between the world and you.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
So and so then Sylviana shows up and you Carri's like, mother,
is this really the best time to be dispensing justice?
And I think what follows is one of the best
speech slap downs that is so relevant to what's going
on to me in the United States right now. It's

(49:51):
I really want to read it or I want you
to read it. I don't know, are you in up
for reading the whole thing? Oh? Yeah, okay for it,
go for it.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah yeah yeah. After she you know, lets you Kiri
be like, oh do you want this burden in Gwen's
like I have been doing this burden. Give it to me,
Just give me the damn burden. And then yeah, she
gives them this speech. You all bear a great deal
of shame, she said, stiff faced, eyes to die, raised

(50:18):
eyebrows and opened eyes wider. They seemed angry. They had
no right. Their anger was nothing beside hers this, Igwaine said,
gesturing toward the broken wall. You bear responsibility for this,
she pointed at Sylviana, still kneeling. You bear responsibility for this.

(50:38):
You bear responsibility for the way our sisters regard one
another in the halls, and you bear responsibility for letting
the tower remain so long in division. Many of you
bear responsibility for that division in the first place. You
are a disgrace. The White Tower, the pride of the Light,
the power for stability and truth since the age of Legends,

(51:01):
has nearly been shattered because of you. Eyes bugged out,
and a few women choked in shock. Elida one began.
Elida was a mad woman, and you all know it,
Agwaine said, sternly, standing tall, staring them down. You knew
it these last few months, as she worked unwittingly to

(51:21):
destroy us light. Many of You probably knew it when
you raised her in the first place. There have been
foolish omrelinds before, but none have come as close to
tearing down the entire tower. You are a check upon
the ommereline. You are to keep her from doing things
like this. You allowed her to disband an entire raja.
What were you thinking? How is it that you allowed

(51:44):
the tower to fall so far and when the dragon
reborn himself walks the land. No less, you should have
removed Alida the moment you heard of her disastrous attempt
to confine Randolphor you should have removed her when you
saw how her bickering and pettiness was turning odds against
one another. And you should certainly have removed her when

(52:04):
she refused to do what was needed to bring the
tower together again whole as one. Egwaine looked down the
lines of sisters, staring at each one in turn, meeting
each set of eyes until they looked away. None dared
hold her gaze for long. Finally she saw shame begin
to peek through their masks as well it should none

(52:26):
of you would stand up to her. Igwain spat you
dare call yourself the hall of the tower, You who
were cowed, You who were too frightened to do what
was needed, You who were too cut up in your
own squabbles and politicting to see what was needed. Igwain
looked down at Sylviana. Only one woman in this room

(52:47):
was willing to stand up for what she knew to
be right. Only one woman dared defy Alida, and she
accepted the price of doing so. And you think I
brought this woman here to exact vengeance on her? Are
you really so blinded that you think I'd punish the
only person in the entire tower who did anything of
decency these last few months. They were all looking down now,

(53:11):
even Sarah, and wouldn't meet her eyes. Sylvianna looked up
at her. You did your duty, Sylviana Agwin said, And
you did it well. Rise. Just throw that woman a
fucking bouquet.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Right right? Oh man, No, I just I want to
like yell that at Congress and just replace all the names.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Yes, exactly, you should have seen. We've had foolish presidents before,
like we should be. We should be dealing with so
many things, Like we're the United fucking States. We're supposed
to be a shining city on a hill. We've never
had a president who's trying to just name political assassinations
and tell terrorists to stand back and stem on and

(53:58):
on every single thing she says, swap a couple of
names and everything else water tight.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
And that was well done. I like that. The outrage
was good.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Kate Redding set me up well, and my anger at
the current moment fuels the fire Kate reading. She talks
about this in various like con discussions about her experience
of delivering lines, and she talks about how anger, righteous anger,
is the emotion that she really loves doing the most

(54:29):
and gets the most like personal satisfaction and like emotion
out of as a narrator, and it comes through when
she reads this part.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
Righteous anger and pure insanity are my two favorite parts
to read.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Being absolutely evil and absolutely righteous
the two most appealing roles to inhabit.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
They're pure, They ring like a bell. You know that emotion,
you know that feeling when you're in the right about
something or when you just want something to die. You know,
like there's that anger and then and then there's that purity. Right.
That's like it doesn't come many from almost any other emotion.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yeah, it's like a perfect third. It just rings really.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Anyway, that's that is the great you know, between that
and her throwing fireballs from the tower, Like, this book
is peak a Gwain, Right, this book is why we
love a GWayne. This is like the stuff she does
in this book is awesome. She reunites the tower, She
slaps those isid eye into order. She you know, puts
puts them in their place, and really brings the United

(55:41):
White Tower to the last battle.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah, she takes some of the most powerful, disorganized people
and organizes them.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
She herds cats, She heards cats.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
So effectively, and she manages to like make everyone happy
in the Bargain where she's really encompassing all the ajos right,
Like her gray is showing with the way that she
is scolding and reprimanding. And then you know she turns
to uplifting after naming Sylviana right like she goes she
takes the Hall on a whole ass hero's journey in
this session, and yeah, Sylviana accepts the offer of Keeper

(56:15):
with reserve and calmness and respect, and you know she's
she's perfect for it. She really is a good choice.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Little discussion about what the Red Adjaw is going to
be in the future. Will Sylvian is like there will
always be rogue channelers and men who cannot be trusted,
and A Gwayne's like, well, this hopefully won't always be
men who can't be trusted, Like that's not what we're
going for here in the future.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
But you know, maybe not today, maybe next week we'll
figure that out.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
Maybe after the last battle. Good luck with that agwayin.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Oh yeah, but you know it makes sense, right, there's
what the Red Oddjous purpose on paper is, and there's
what their subconscious programming is, and like the latter will
be a slower process to rework, Like it's just how
humans are. The important thing is, you know, beginning the
process of accepting that male channelers are not automatically your job.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
M m. But you can see how maybe they need
to work with the IEL to be part of the
police force to take down rogue channelers.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
I would love to see an ideal red Auja, Like,
I mean, that was one thing I loved about the
show's world building, was like that the red Auja is
just the enforcers, like because I mean, it really with
the rate at which channeling shows up at the population
for female channelers. I don't think you need the red
Auja to be dedicated only to male channelers. I feel
like they're going to have a lot of extra time

(57:32):
on their hands. It makes sense for them to be
enforcers of more than just male channeling, like enforcers of
lots of stuff. So yeah, seeing the partner with the
IEO would be devastatingly effective.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
And then so I like how this is an issue
where she talks aboutw We're gonna have to like give
up certain positions right because we have a merger of
two towers basically, and we have too many keepers or
too many, too many sitters and too many adja heads.
And Sylvia was like, do you have too many keepers?
And she's like, no, I executed my last one for
being a.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Well the other one was black Auja. Actually turns out no.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
No, I took her head off. Yeah, so we're good.
So it was like, oh, okay, so had a busy
day since I last saw you and beat you, right,
which is like that's got to be crazy. Like this
girl who I beat every day just casually told me
she slaughtered the last person who was in my position.
I hope think about that for a second. Think about

(58:37):
that for a second.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Right, It's like that moment you were describing earlier when
someone goes from stranger to friend just because you realize
what their screen name is and they're no longer a
random person. It's that sort of thing like you were
a child. Oh you're pe.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
Okay, you're very dangerous.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's one more piece of aguain speech
that I want to read as we get to this page.
And I am not guiltless either. I share some of
your shame, for it was during my tenure that these
disasters occurred. I sided with the rebels, allowed myself to
be raised by them because it was the only choice.
But that choice still gives me culpability. Bear your shame, sitters,

(59:17):
but bear it with determination. Do not let it break you.
The time for healing has begun, and there is no
longer any use in pointing fingers. You failed, but you
are all that we have. We are all that the
world has. I like that. She like the hope at
the bottom of Pandora's box, like, yeah, you fucked up,

(59:39):
admit it and move on because you're still alive, which
means you can do better, which is again something that
a lot of hand ringing. People in the real world
need to come to grips with like, it's not over
till you're dead. Guys, we need to stop pointing fingers
and think about what we're actually going to do. So

(01:00:00):
I like that, she says that. Oh, and then and
then we we we mentioned that maybe the Turan grill
rooms should be secret and secure and moved from where
it currently is, maybe maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Away from someone a gateways. Yeah, finally, never thought about
that with Forsaken. But you know why for Saken didn't
rate it first. We don't know that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
We don't know, but we'll we'll try now.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
It's like, why didn't messana gateway down to that room
the second she learned about it and starts distributing, like
using the distribution of the Terran Grill and the ongrioll
among the Forsaken to get herself to a position of
power and train them for favors and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
I love bargaining chips.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Yeah, I still think it's one of the bigger plot holes.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
But it's being plugged now. However late it is still
being plugged now.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Yeah, a little too late, it is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
It is way too late.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
They talk about getting a new Mistress of the Novices
because now that Sylviana has been elevated, who ends up
being mistress of the Novices? I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
I don't remember. I have no idea who the mistress
of the Novices becomes.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Well, gee, what happened to Oradiopedia?

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Come on, we're in the last three books My Powers
of Wayne? Oh? Is it Rosil the from Saladar from
the rebel camp? Because the rebel camp has a mistress
of Novices. She's very young and overwhelmed by the job,
which I don't know why Agwayne is just like, well,
I need a new one. I guess because she just
figures that Rosil is not up to the task. I

(01:01:33):
don't know that sms kind of rude because Rosel doesn't
get killed like Cheeriom, so.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
H.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
I mean, if she's overwhelmed, maybe she's like, yeah, we
definitely need a new one.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
I mean, honestly, I feel like we need a one
mistress of Novices with like three deputy mistress of novices
under her for the hundreds. I don't think any one
woman can handle hundreds of them. No, it's it's not
Sharina Sharena is taking on a lot of the responsibilities
just because no one else is competent. But she's not formally,

(01:02:05):
she's not even nice to die, so she can't be
the distress anovisis, did you hear that is the talk snoring?

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Yeah, I totally heard that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
He's like he's chasing something in his sleep and growling
at it and like snorting. He's got his head he's
got his head on on my foot and he's totally asleep.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
What a good boy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Harvey's turned into a real snogglebug.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Oh it's Tiana Insaladar Roseil replaces her when the Tower's
Reunited mentioned in Towers at Midnight. Oh, I'm glad you
only know because it's your favorite books? Is I have
so weak in these last three books? It's too I
literally have been trying to re listen to them over
the past couple of years, and every time I start,
I just wander away and listen to something else. Like

(01:02:53):
I have had the hardest time studying these books for
podcast purposes, like outside of just notes for recordings.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
So let's see, I'm going to read the notes from
the Watt fandom. Okay, it is unclear why Agwaine decided
to change the mistress of Novices. The previous title holder
in the White Tower, Katerine, was black a job or
Preteressessor Sylviana became Agwayne's new keeper of the Chronicles. This
does not fully explain why Tiana did not resume the

(01:03:20):
post within the Tower that she did with the rebels.
The reason is likely political. The change in roles represents
the fresh start Agwaine wats for the Tower, and also
fits with her decision to treat the rebel Isidi faction
as rebels by making them apologize for the part Rosil
may Or may not continue his mistress under the new
Ambulin cod.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Swain Huh, okay, so I'm gonna go with plotthole.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
I mean they just leave it with Rosil.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
No, the Tiana to Rosil transition, like, yeah, that just
feels like a well, that's fine, Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
Because Tiana was right they were well okay, wow, yeah,
that's weird. It doesn't there's no reason why.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
I do know that the Romaine and some others were
talking about how Tiana was really young and not super
up to the task. So maybe she's just like, you know,
quiet fired.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Yeah, no, offl on, you're spot on. Tiana was the
one in Saladar and Rosella replaced her in the Tower Reunited.
She's mentioned in Tower of Midnights. No reason given.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
Yeah, I truly think they need more than one mistress
of Novices to deal with the massive escalation of novices.
No one person can be in charge of hundreds to
that degree. There's not enough hours in the day, that's
not enough brain cells.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Well, then teaching methods are weird because it's like I
die and accepted when they can like because they don't
accept it, don't have to really teach, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Yeah, it's gotta be a whole new thing. You're going
to need a small army of competent women to make
sense of that. And yeah, I do think that Sharina
will need to be given some input space, no matter
what her rank is, because you need Sharena to organize this.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
I mean honestly, Sharena is probably going to test for
eyes to die, like day one of them getting the
arches fired back up, so they go out to do

(01:05:17):
the formal reunification and apology process. That's what That's where
I go next is just yeah, going going outside to
address the rebels who have now been lined up, and
she tells them. You know, I've now been raised properly
and legally by both sides, so we can come back together.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
The mistakes have been made on both sides. Okay, whatever,
rolling my eyes at that statement.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
It's a necessary fiction.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
Yeah, it's a necessary fiction. It's really like the Tower
fucked up and these people had to rebel.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
In my opinion, yeah, yeah, no, there's and it's again
this thing that she says here that's just so relevant
to people that want to throw in the towel on
permanent division. I will not tend that our division did
not take place. We have the White Tower. Are sometimes
too eager to forget those facts. We don't want to
acknowledge it just yeah, maybe like yes, we have to

(01:06:12):
put it in the past, but not like forget about
how we got there. We do need to learn from that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
And here's where she does uses the whole broken reforging
sword analogy that pissed you off because she doesn't need
because it's like she says it right here and then
doesn't get it with the rands and seals thing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Yeah, like paren has to explain it to her when
she already explained it to the entire Tower.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
We have been broken then torn nearly down to the roots.
I mean to see that we are once again the
sword forge, with strength, whole and unbroken.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
So why is it so offensive to you when rand
suggests doing the same thing with metaphysics.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
Ah?

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
But yeah, then she gives them the real the real
rile up and gets them all cheering and excited, And
that goes right through the readout. These days will test you.
I will force you to work with those you saw
as enemies just hours ago. You will march alongside those
who spurned you, or hurt you, or hated you. But
we are stronger than our weaknesses. The White Tower stands

(01:07:21):
and we shall stand with it. We will become one again.
We will be in assembly that tales will tell of.
When I am finished with you, it will not be
written that the White Tower was weak. Our divisions will
be forgotten in the face of our victories. We will
be remembered not as the White Tower who turned against itself,
but as the White Tower who stood strong in the

(01:07:41):
face of the shadow. These days will be legendary. Cheers
burst out mostly from novices and soldiers, as the eyes
to die were too reserve for that sort of behavior. Generally,
some younger ones did call out, caught up in the moment. Thankfully,
those cheers came from both sides again, them roar for
a moment, then raised her arms, quieting them. Let it

(01:08:04):
go forth across the land, she shouted. Let it be
spoken of, let it be relied upon, and let it
be remembered. The White Tower is whole and complete, and
no one man, woman, or creation of the Shadow will
see us divided again. The cheers were nearly deafening this time,

(01:08:24):
and surprisingly Mari Sadi joined in. Agwain lowered her hands.
She hoped they would still cheer her in the months
to come. There was a great deal of work to
be done. She riles them up, while also admitting to
herself that, you know, it's a little more complicated than that,
but this is a necessary moment.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
And that's where the title of this chapter comes from,
to be forged again. She's forging that tower back together, right,
and to those pieces that she.

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
Talks about, it's triumphant, masterful, peak, Agwain.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
And it is It's kind of the end of a
big plot line, right. This is the ever since the
tower split, ever since that night when Suon was taken,
instilled and her order was killed and the Tower split
and everybody separated, and like, that has been such a
huge plot line for such a long time, and now

(01:09:16):
that is done, and it had to happen so that
Agwayne could reunite it and become Amberlin, right, because no
way she can become Amberlin without the split, Absolutely not.
And so now we're back around to the point where
she has taken power and she can be the ying
the end to brand z Yang and be in charge
of the White Tower as a Two Rivers person who
will support him. How that's implemented, we can debate that,

(01:09:40):
but like I really do think that's the whole point, right,
is like you have the Two Rivers folks becoming the
powers upon which the world balances. You know, you have Matt,
who's kind of in a lot of ways not in
charge of but at least has access to the shan
Chan power base. You have Rand with his armies and countries.
You have Agwayne, who rules over the White Tower Ninive,

(01:10:05):
who has access to all the Borderland armies.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
And parents grab bag army.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
And parents grab bag of all the other armies. He's like,
oh yeah, what else, Come on, everyone else, get in
the bag.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
Come on, Yeah, he's the others. Yeah, check boxes. And
then there's just other that's parents army.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
Because like he really does reunite, like Matt might be
the general, but Paren is the one who brings them
all together. And again I would like to see more
of that sort of bringing together the various armies beneath Paren.
I think him sort of in a Gwayne's role would
have been pretty cool or sorry Elaine's role, like more
of like the leader at that point and sort of

(01:10:43):
doing the moving of them around. And but I and
and then I think you could have made an ischuse
for it of like, oh, this is a friend of mine,
he doesn't have any loyalty, he's not part of any
any nation, right, Well you follow him, and then you
have all the various people's he's picked up that can
vouch for him, and be like I would fall and
be like, well, if that guy'll follow them, I'll follow him, right,

(01:11:03):
And so you have all these armies, well just.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
Like with a gwayin right, collecting all the different Odgile loyalties,
and then both camps and then everyone's like, oh, I
guess we all agree on that person, even though we
hate each.

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
Other, and you know, someone could challenge parent. He can
do the thing where he teleports behind them and says
I'm behind you now, cuts the throat and says, anyone
else want to challenge me? You know, one of those things.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
But yeah, this was a triumphant, ringing end too.

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
Definitely, definitely it Win's.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Entire climb to power and the tower division. I what
a moment of triumph.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
For Swan, you know, right right.

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
She got her warder killed and got yeded out of
the tower and she came back with a gwain.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
You know, there's that moment when Agwaene has that thought
where she's like, oh, and if I forget what the
if was, but she's like, oh, if I hadn't returned,
basically Ali, it would still be in charged. I was like, no,
she wouldn't have. Alida still would have gotten nabbed like
somebody else would have been in charge. But like, it
is kind of funny that Agwayne's return had almost nothing
to do with Alida losing power. She was just in

(01:12:09):
the right place at the right time to take that
power once Alida had had been asconded with.

Speaker 1 (01:12:15):
Yeah, I mean, I do think Alida was not long
for the seat regardless of what happened to her attack.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
Yeah, no, no one wants her back for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
Yeah, like Agwaine's spade work on that front. Like, I
think Alida was gonna get cooed at some point in
the next few days if Agwayne, you know, didn't just
forcibly take the tower.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
It just it undermines any opposition that she would have
had because it's like, well, who are you gonna spport
like and it's like there's a group that supports Agwayne
in a group that doesn't support anybody because the light
is gone, right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:49):
Yeah, it makes it easy, which is fine because we've
spent the better part of this series having it be hard.
So you know, a little bit of sliding in to
home base at the end for Flair is it's fine,
We'll allow it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
And that's what we're doing. We're wrapping everything this book
and then especially next book is like, let's get our
ducks in a row, because the last book is a
full on battle. So this is the this is the
first big duck that is in a row and ready
and pointed at the last battle.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, we've got a duck. Now let's
get the other ducks. Leaned up behind it and then
it will be a row.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
Then they can turn into cats and you know low
par or whatever the Sean jan Us. Yeah, sure, sure, yeah,
Well the next yeah, and the next couple of chapters
are going to be ranmed and then veins of leading
up into veins of gold. Like we are yeah, I

(01:13:45):
mean this is we have I think two more episodes
and then the epilogue planned. So buckle up, Buttercup, like,
we are absolutely going into the end of this book.
And we are I mean this chapter obviously, all that
great speech by A. GWayne and the reunification of the
chapter like awesome conclusion to an awesome plot line. We

(01:14:09):
are in the sander Lanche for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:14:11):
It's amazing. It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
So it's it's funny because this book, it is if
Jordan had this slog, Sanderson has this sander Lanch. But
that does mean the beginning of his books can be
kind of slow and lack some details. Like I think
he gets better at adding more details in his later
books and maybe spreading out his conclusions, but man, sometimes

(01:14:35):
the first half of his books, you're like, could could
I get could I get a resolution to any of
these plot lines please.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Yeah, yeah, no, this is it's a rough book for him,
the very first Robert Jordan Brandon Sanderson combo book. It's yeah,
that first half was rough, but boy, this sander Lanche
wants it kicks in. Man, does it tickle good?

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
Yeah? No, it's it's really good, right, Like, and it's
why his other books, you know, I know you haven't
done a lot of reading of his other stuff, but
like and why it's often hard to get you know,
people into it because like you have to get past
some of the beginning stuff, but it is worth it
for the sandalanches, right, That's really why I read it. Now,
could he spread those out a little bit more? Maybe,

(01:15:19):
you know, would his books be a little bit of
an easier read if like there was you know, there
wasn't such a hard, unified conclusion at the end of
every single book, And maybe he could spread those out
so some of them fell in the beginning of certain books.
I mean, I think that would be nice. I think
that'd be nice. But then I think he likes having
big conclusions at the end of his books because each

(01:15:40):
book becomes its own blockbuster, right, And it's very movie
centric or TV show centric.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
It has a formula that works and has no interest
in deviating from it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
Mm hmmm, so I get why he does it. Yeah,
I think, especially here in these series, he tortures the
timeline a little bit to get it done.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):
Remember else. So he's a much more seasoned writer now
than he was when he was doing true True. I
mean he was such a less seasoned writer when he
got taps to do this. This was such a growth
experience for him.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
All right, Well that was that was fun. Is there
anything else we need to talk about before the world ends?

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Mm? Yeah, I got nothing else.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
Yeah, just uh hope calmer heads prevail out there.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
Yeah, I I could do with an Agwayne showing up
to heard these fucking cats right about now. I could
use like maybe one Agwain per continent of people who
think that they're supposed to be in charge. Just I
need I need more away in my global leader monitors Like,
oh my god, anyway, let's do recording off.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
Thanks everybody for listening, really appreciate it. Thanks for sticking
in for almost another book and uh yeah two left
to go. Very excited about it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
We have a lot of pages to covered today. Yeah,
each each.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
Chapter isn't necessarily a lot of pages, but they're both
medium sized chapters, which leads to one pretty epic number
of pages.

Speaker 1 (01:18:00):
But it's another one of those things where the scenes
blend so well together that it seems strange to not.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
Right, to break it, to do the whole thing. Yeah,
I do have a joke. I keep meaning to tell
do it all right? So Borderlander, a sean Chan, and
then Aiel walk into a blood bank at the same
time to give blood. The Borderlander sits down and claims,
I will give the most blood because I am the

(01:18:27):
biggest of us and my blood is type A, which
will help many patients. The shawan Chan sits down and
claims my blood is a direct descendant of a Tappen
drag and just type B. And finally, Fayel sits down
and says, I think I'm a typo.

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
I hate it so much. It's so good, it's bad.
It's good again. Thank you Athlon, thank you for the validation.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
So I was hoping I get away before anyone heard that, she.

Speaker 1 (01:19:08):
Says, after turning. Okay, you know we still get like
a thousand downloads of any given episode, right.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
Oh fuck right, I forgot people still listen to this thing.
Could you people stop that please? It's really embarrassing for.

Speaker 1 (01:19:22):
Saving me, says the media appearance person radio.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
I am in my closet where nobody can hear me.
The doors are shut, the house is empty. This doesn't
go anywhere in my brain besides into the computer and
to you, and like that's that's it. Like that's why
I let you edit out all the parts that need
to get edited out, because sometimes I forget that it
goes out there.

Speaker 1 (01:19:47):
Yeah, podcasting is a weird experience.

Speaker 2 (01:19:50):
It is. It is.

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
I'm glad we have a live audience component to the
process so that we do at least remember there is
a third party, even if they are very small audience.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
It does that helps. And then also meeting people at
cons is really helpful to remember that, Like it very
much humanizes it that like, oh, yes, people, I'm not
just shouting into a text you know, text fields that
come back to me. It's it's amazing, Like, I know
the internet is people, right, Like it's it's not that
hard to remember. But man, meeting those at least a

(01:20:25):
couple of those people really does help put faces to
the names and the messages and the effort and the
fandom and like it's like, oh, I you know it. Actually,
if you put a theater of a thousand people together,
that's a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
Yeah, it's it's because we're really good at reaching for
social connection as social animals. But we've had the Internet
for like no time at all, Right, right, our brains
like we can intellectually bridge that gap, but like the
architecture of our brains is not are the architecture of
our brains expects a person to be in front of
you or to not exist, right, Like the Internet is

(01:21:02):
a very new edition. And then yeah, I remember last
year at walk Gun hanging out with someone writing with
someone in the car and they're interacting with me like
we totally know each other, Like there's just this sense
of familiarity, and I'm just like, who are you? It's Holger,

(01:21:23):
who'd been in chat a whole bunch in live recordings,
like a whole bunch. But like, how there's not a
little orange text floating next to your head?

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
How I'm I supposed to know? Right? Yeah, don't think
you know my voice?

Speaker 1 (01:21:36):
I don't know your voice. And it was just such
a wild experience of like this person is very comfortable
with me and as soon as I know who they are,
it just switches this thing. It's like, again, the human
brain has not evolved to have this happen. We are
only intellectually bridging the gap. Like physiologically we are so confused.

Speaker 2 (01:21:56):
Sometimes I will say, I've had the very very weird
experience right where you meet somebody and they are a stranger. Right,
you meet them and you shake their hand, they're stranger,
and then they say, oh, hi, I'm screen name, and
all of a sudden they go from stranger to friend.
And the way that my brain just like that, the

(01:22:18):
way my brain totally changes the way it perceives their
face because there is context to go around it. And
it's I would never have been able to describe it
before the Internet, because like, you meet people and you
get to know them, and you know what they look like,
and you know their mannerisms, you know their voices, and
like that all comes together. But yeah, when you get

(01:22:41):
to know people over the Internet and you never get
any of that context and then you meet them, it
is it's like a little puzzle piece falling into place,
and then you feel weird. Because I remember the first
time I met the White Tower girls, right, like literally
is me and Patrick sitting at a bar and they
come up to us and they start talking to us,
like because they know who we are because we put
we have our images out there and they hadn't put

(01:23:02):
their images out there, so they recognized us. So they
recognized us, and they started talking to us because we've
been We were on a panel together, and there was
this moment where they're like, oh, we're from the White
Tower podcast and then oh, yeah, okay, all of a
suddeness and Jen became JUSTS and Jen, not these two
random girls who started talking to me at the bar, right, I.

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
Mean, even even to some extent the flatness of Zoom. Yeah,
does that I met someone recently in person for the
first time after having talked with them for several hours
on Zoom, And like, we were at a larger event,
and so I see this person and she waves at me,
and I'm like, she looks really familiar, but I cannot

(01:23:43):
place it. And then eventually I connected her face with
the flat two dimensional version I remembered from Zoom, and
it was just it was that same kind of switch
from stranger to friend, except that there was this weird
It was just Zoom. It was just the two dimensionality
of Zoom, Like I literally knew her face, but not
in three D. I mean, every time I see you
in person, I'm always like, wow, you're so different, like

(01:24:07):
because you're small and down here right right right right, wait,
I'm looking down at you and you're little, And then
I see you in person and I'm looking up at
you and you're like a normal size person. You know,
it's very different. It like takes a bit of a
reframe to be like, oh, that's actually what he looks like,
this is actually not the real you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:25):
My favorite is one meeting Brian and uh Neigbleiss from
tarl And after Dark in person and having seen them
on Zoom and thinking they were about the same size
person when Brian is is about your size.

Speaker 1 (01:24:42):
Right, like right, yeah, it's a waif. Yeah well yeah,
not a waif. But he's more slender than I am.

Speaker 2 (01:24:47):
Yes, And Nabeless is a mountain of a man, right
he is, he's large, Yes, he's large.

Speaker 1 (01:24:53):
He is a brickshit. Yes, I think the category is and.

Speaker 2 (01:24:57):
I just, I mean, I just I was like, oh,
I had no I idea from Zoom, like you just
cannot cannot tell.

Speaker 1 (01:25:03):
Yeah, that's The thing too, is everyone on the internet
is the same height and has the same accent, right,
they're all you all speaking my accent because you know,
unless I've heard you in person, and once I've talked
to you in person and had conversations with you in person,
then your text voice sounds like your voice, right, But

(01:25:23):
until then you sound like me. And then yeah, meeting
people in person being like wow, turns out the part
where we're a global community means we don't all sound
the same. Oh and then Athlon made a very cool
comment and chat about the experience as a blind person. Yeah,
all through voice and then audio technology. Yeah, yeah, the

(01:25:47):
signal chain that a sound passes through, it's like the
zoom flattening effect from three D to two D. If
you listen to someone through layers of compression and packetization
as it moves through an internet connection or technology connection,
then that's a similar kind of discontinuity from the real thing.

Speaker 2 (01:26:08):
And one thing I've really tried to do in the
tech stream from the beginning is I try and reduce
the number of different black boxes the audio has to
go through to get to you. Now, for the live stream,
it goes through actually a lot more black boxes because
I have a bunch of different things in the length
to make it happen live. And so that's like you

(01:26:29):
get zoom compression and you get audio dropouts, and like
the live streaming is hard, right, Like it's just it's hard. Yeah,
But we're recording independently at our own microphones, so we
get high quality audio recorded and compressed. We do high
quality MP three I don't do, you know, lossless just

(01:26:49):
because we're not doing music here. My voice isn't that
big of a range.

Speaker 1 (01:26:53):
Yeah, no for sure, so you know, and then.

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):
You do high high quality MP three's, and then you
edit once and export that and to a high quality compression.
And the idea is like at no point are you
losing interesting information, and that gives the best chance of
you hearing the high quality output. Whereas I think a
lot of other podcasts they use these tools right that

(01:27:15):
exists on the internet, and their audio is getting compressed
in the computer, compressed, sent it's getting compressed when it's
being sent to the third party. It's getting compressed when
it's stored, it's getting compressed when it's sent back to them,
it's getting compressed when it's edited. I'm just it's like
it's not you don't lose a lot of quality every time,
but every time you lose just a little bit more.

Speaker 1 (01:27:36):
Yeah. No, I am in the process of starting another podcast,
and I am the podcast guru for those co hosts.
They know nothing about podcasting, so of course I have
them all doing local recordings, and you know, I'm just
patiently walking them through. Yes, we're going to all need
to download Audacity and here's how to use it and
so on and so forth. And yeah, sometimes their Zoom

(01:27:57):
connections are shit, and it's I'm just so happy knowing
that that stuttering, it goes too slow and then it
goes too fast. Thing that Zoom does, like that's only
for us in live. It's not gonna be there for
the audience for all time. It makes me feel good because, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:28:16):
There's just different demands on computers when you're doing things
in real time versus when you have as much time
as the processing takes.

Speaker 1 (01:28:23):
Yeah, and if we were doing like audio books like
super Professional, we would be doing lossless because it would
matter for that context. It's just that we're more of
a band and a barality, so like there's a certain
floor on how into the weeds we have to get.

Speaker 2 (01:28:40):
I do. Got to say, though, with these new microphones,
I would feel much more comfortable attempting an audio book
than I did with the blue yetties, because the blue
yetties are good for what we're doing, but these are
much more the shores are much more professional quality.

Speaker 1 (01:28:55):
Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:28:59):
Wow, you did all right on that? Is there anything else?

Speaker 3 (01:29:10):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
Oh, I have a new car. I don't know if
I've told you about that?

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
Yeah, update us on that.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
Yeah, So I don't know. Did I tell you about
the accident during the last recording.

Speaker 1 (01:29:18):
Yes, it was in the after show of the last recording.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):
So basically I went to the car dealership and said, hey,
I'm getting this payment for my car because they're just
going to pay it buy it from me. The state
farm is going to buy it from me. And I
basically found a car that was the exact same car
that I wrecked. It's I ended up autism, Like, I
don't want to have to learn a new car, you know,

(01:29:43):
I don't have to try and do a car payment.
It's three years newer, but it literally had the almost
the exact same mileage. It had less than a thousand
miles difference on it between the mileage between the two.
It doesn't have the leather. There's a cup missing a cup.
It's a slightly lower trend package, right, so, but it's newer,
so it's got a few upgraded things, right. So it

(01:30:04):
doesn't have other seats, it doesn't have heated seats. It
doesn't have a sun roof, which I was all lucky
to have. But all of those were like I don't
really care about you know, it's like whatever, Like they're
they're nice, but I do not care.

Speaker 1 (01:30:16):
It's a flight bummer to have them taken away. Once
you get used to them.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
Exactly, you'll live, right, And so yeah, I just and
what the dealership was actually very nice. They let me
pay the difference between because State Farm hasn't sent me
the check yet, but I had the letter saying they
were gonna send me a check, and so he let
me pay the difference and promise to give him the
check and pay pay pay them out within like ten days.

(01:30:39):
And he let me take the car with just paying,
you know, which was like a thousand bucks between what
I was gonna So I I got out of there,
and what's funny is I just got a bonus from work,
which almost exactly match that.

Speaker 4 (01:30:52):
So wow, was like, so sorry, so sorry, so sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:30:57):
Yeah, here's here's the you can just get the new
car for this amount. Do you know some people are
gonna be like, well, you should you should have taken
you should have taken advantage of that to try and
get a nicer car, a better situation. I'm just like, no,
I was fine with my car. I was gonna drive
out Honda for another twenty years and I still will.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
You just want to control Z on the car accident,
and you did. You just literally got a control Z
right on that situation. That's nice. That's great. Less change,
less change.

Speaker 2 (01:31:25):
Good. Never tried to talk me into a minivan, and
I was like, next car. Even if we have kids
within the next year or two, it's going to be
another like five years before we're hauling around sports equipment.
So like, if any van is premature at this point,
but you know, I like, the Honda Odyssey would totally
be my next car. I think I think most people

(01:31:47):
who have trucks should actually get a minivan. You can
haul way more shit and it's inside.

Speaker 1 (01:31:51):
But it's so much less macho exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:31:55):
Oh my god, yeah, come at me, bro.

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):
Yeah, no, Brandon is in the process of trying desperately
to get us a pickup truck because we actually need
one living like we have to take our garbage to
the dump. We need dirt and gravel, Like these are
not indoor cards, right.

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):
Right, I said most people in the city, Like I
should say, who I see who are in the city.

Speaker 1 (01:32:21):
Yeah, yeah, it's so, it's so real. Yeah, a lot
of people don't need pickup trucks. But yeah, why don't
you help people sell us your damn pickup truck.

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
They're hard to get hold of, man, they are They're expensive. Yeah,
really no, it's it's what did I hear recently? Rich
people don't drive Lexuses and Mercedes. Rich people drive pick
drive pickup trucks.

Speaker 1 (01:32:47):
Thank you for listening to The Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
Please rate and review us on your podcast app and
consider supporting us on Patreon for ad free episodes. What
Spoilers is a production of Fox and Draven Meat. For
more podcasts from Fox and Ravenmedia, visit our website at
Foxendravenmedia dot com.

All Episodes

The Tower Stands & To Be Forged Again- The Gathering Storm chapter 45 & 46 - EP540

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Tower Stands & To Be Forged Again- The Gathering Storm chapter 45 & 46 - EP540