December 21, 2023 • 19 mins
Today, World Class Championship Wrestling is seen as a very successful regional territory from the late 80's.
However, its impact and reach stretched across the globe. In fact, it reached all the way across the Atlantic to a young boy living in England. That boy would grow up to write and direct one of the most important movies regarding the impact WCCW and the Von Erich family had on the lives of so many wrestling fans today. It was such an honor to grab some time with write and director of The Iron Claw, Sean Durkin. Follow the show on Instagram: ➡️ https://www.Instagram.com/WrestleChatPodcast Follow the show on Threads: ➡️ https://www.Threads.net/WrestleChatPodcast Follow the show on Twitter: ➡️ https://www.Twitter.com/WrestleChatPod Follow The AntMan: ➡️ https://www.Instagram.com/TheAntMan.co Follow Michael: ➡️ https://www.Instagram.com/MichaelGlavin
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/wrestlechat-podcast/messageSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When it comes to professional wrestling. If you were talking
about it, we are talking about it. Welcome to the
wrestle Chat Podcast with the Man. By the end of
this podcast, we can show you how a kid from
southern Oklahoma and another born in Canada and raised in
England have so much in common, all because of their
(00:21):
affection for professional wrestling and specifically the von Eric family.
I being the kid from Oklahoma and my guests discovering
world class championship wrestling after moving no, not to Texas,
but England. He's the writer and the director of The
Iron Claw Sean Dirk and Welcome to the wrestl Chat Podcast.
Good to have you on today.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, so we're talking about a time where, you know,
streaming whatever match that you wanted was well, it was impossible.
It hadn't been invented yet. You were at the mercy
of syndicated television, or if you were lucky, you knew
someone who could record some matches on a VHS and
give those to you. So tell me how did you
come to discover world class championship wrestling from Dallas, Texas
(01:01):
and the von Eric family while living in England?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I mean it was a challenge. So, you know, it
was late eighties, early nineties. I was just so obsessed
with wrestling, you know, it was it was everything to me.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It was I was, you know.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Getting home from school, playing with my wrestling toys, going
to school, trying to convince my friends to come over
my house and wrestle, writing characters for them, like trying
to host events. So it you know, and then every
time something would come through, my dad would take me,
you know, and it was it was everything, but it
was never enough. So it's like every you know, issue
(01:40):
of Pro Wrestling illustrated. I could get my hands on
back orders, you know, like and then and then just
like tapes, any any tape I could find, and and
you know, I must have come across I can't remember exactly,
but I must have come across like a best of
NWA tape you know that had some free birds fun
Eric's uh Sportatory matches on it, and uh, you know,
(02:04):
it was just at that point everything was pretty colorful
and you know, verging on cartoonish. And to discover the
Sportatorium at that moment in time, was it just looked different.
You know, it was exciting, it was it was just
you know, more raw, dirtier. It was, you know, you
just like wanted to be there and feel that energy
(02:25):
and uh and then and then at the same time,
I got to see Kerry live in person in the WWF.
So I was sort of able to, you know, put
these two things together and just just really loved them.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Was Carrie your favorite?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Uh? Yeah, I don't have a shavor, and I love
them all.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Carrie was mine. Carrie was my favorite growing up. And
and they would, you know, not tour like they do now,
that they would come to small you know, gymnasiums in
southern Oklahoma where I grew up, and so it was
you know, now looking back on it, I did not
realize how blessed we were to be so close to
the action and to see the stars that we got
(03:05):
to see in the space that we got to see
them in because it wasn't it wasn't Madison Square Garden,
it was my high school gym.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I mean, in some ways, that's the energy I wanted
to tap into. And making the movie was like to
be that close to these guys in these small places
that were just you know, wrestling so polished and grand.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Now, you know, and just getting.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Back to some of those the purity of it. I
just I just love that time and that's yeah, it's
incredible that you experience.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
That anyone who's who was a fan in real time
while it was going on, has since gone back to
watch you know, documentaries and shoot interviews and things like
that on YouTube. So the stories are out there. But
what I absolutely loved about the movie The Iron Claw
is that it was unsensationalized, if that's a word, and
(03:58):
it was also all in one place. It wasn't from
an objective of somebody trying to you know, prop themselves up.
How How how were you able to compile and make
sense of all the stories that you heard for this
movie in order to make the movie?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, it's it was the big challenge, right, Like you know,
when I started the writing process, I knew a certain
amount just from memory and experience, and but but when
you start digging into the build a timeline of events,
both from a wrestling standpoint, from a sort of family
event standpoint, and then filling in those gaps with you know,
(04:34):
getting to know the brothers through whatever whatever you know,
whatever way you can from what was out there, it's
just such an epic undertaking, and so I started the
process of chipping away and just trying to find the
core of the story, but again without ever trying to
sensationalize anything. I just I just wanted to tell this
(04:54):
human story of you know, I think in some way
some of my original interests in wrestling was like that
these guys are out in the ring performing the ultimate
act of pain or the ultimate act of joy or
you know, or you know you can go and as
an audience member, have all these feelings that they're having
(05:17):
in the ring that you can't necessarily have in life.
And what drew me to this story and what I'm
most interested in was like, well, they were showing all
these emotions in the ring and performing this stuff, but
in real life, they weren't allowed to have those feelings.
They weren't allowed to show their emotions. And so for me,
it was always the way in was always through this
(05:39):
sort of inner inner life and trying to get to that.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
You know. Some of my favorite films ever are the
ones that I find something new every time I watched
them because of all the detail that's in the movie,
and I missed on the first pass or the second pass,
the amount of detail that went into The Iron Claw
was unreal. I mentioned just you know, in a in
the trailer, I saw how the actor portraying Michael Hayes
(06:06):
would bump and he looked exactly like Michael Hayes bumping
back then. And I don't know what Michael Hayes look
like bumping right now, but he looked like him back then.
At least, you know, clearly detail in this film was
very important to you.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yeah, very important, and it always is, and I think
it's even higher when you're a wrestling fan making a
wrestling movie, Yeah, because you know, you know, as a
wrestling fan, when something comes out about wrestling, you're gonna,
you know, you're gonna take it down if it's not right.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And so I know the bars.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
High and you know when I when I brought in
Chavo Guerrero to to to be my partner on the
wrestling side and to you know, train these actors, and
you know, I told him, I was like this, this
has to be the highest level. You know, people have
to consider this, you know, well one of the best
movies about wrestling you could imagine, because it just has
(07:00):
to be that good in order to to you know,
have people accept it and and so you know, we
set the bar.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
High and and really tried to live up to that.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
No, you did. It was it was wonderful. Do you
not to ask like your favorite one, but do you
have you have one in particular that you wanted to
make sure and fine tune and go this had this
detail or these details need to be spot on?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, you know, it's it's There was definitely some things
like you know, costume things that there's some iconic moments, right,
some of the robes like uh, you know some of
those things.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
We wanted to recreate those.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
So to to to to give you that, you know,
that sense of place, and like having Geno and Brody
in it felt really important, and not only them in
the ring, but.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Then backstage had that conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
That you know them on the road, you know, like
being idiot's in a bar, you know what I mean,
Just like having a bit of having a bit of.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
That life to it felt felt really important.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
And and you know, having like Scanner acbar in the
first scene, like just like these things where we're not
necessarily announcing them, but they're there and if you know
about them, you can see them. But also like if
you're not a wrestling fan, you don't need to know.
And that's and that's important too. It's like that balance
of because I want people to come to this who
(08:19):
are not wrestling fans, who are you know, I want
to like hopefully shed some light on the wrestling world
and the process, you know, to people who are not
into wrestling.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
There and back then too. I mean, I know these
guys would be saying thank god there weren't but there
were no cell phones. Nobody's shooting video of them at
the bar, So you have to use your imagination. And
I feel like the movie gave us a glimpse at
something we'll never get to see of guys like that,
hanging out you know, before matches, after matches, back in
the locker room, things like that.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, it was certainly something I sort of dreamed of
and was like, no, you it's like, what do they do?
You know, what are they doing in the crabby bar
they're going to that night?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And yeah, there's so many stories inside this one grand
story of the Iron Claw. Was there a particular one
that you shot that ended up on the proverbial cutting
room floor?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, for sure, there definitely was there, always there always is.
Obviously there's you know, there's there's I guess along the
like in the whole process, there's always like you're making
these choices to focus the movie, and so there's there's
always things and you're just like, you know, we're just
constantly examining what's the best way to tell the story,
what's the folks to the story, and making those decisions.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
There are two details, uh front end and backhand, Jackie
and Chris that were not a part of this story.
Uh is there was there a And I'm sure there is,
but I want to hear your answer and that it
was their thought process of not including them in this
movie because it's not about necessarily the Vaughan, Eric, the
whole life. It's about it this one together, collective story
(10:03):
that is the movie. What was the thought on not
including them?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, I mean it was. It was the hardest decision
I've ever made as a writer. You know, I wrote
wrote the script for seven years and and Chris was
in it for five of those years. We I you know,
I basically at a certain point have to separate the real
(10:27):
life and you have to focus on characters on a
page and getting a movie made, and what the storytelling
is and you know, on a human level, it's one thing,
but on a storytelling level, there's a repetition that occurs
and that the movie couldn't necessarily sustain.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
And so.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I made the very difficult decision to take some of
some of the things I learned about Chris and bring
them into the character of Mike, so that Mike in
the film is a little bit of Chris, a bit
of Mike, and you know, but but everyone becomes a
character in a movie essentially at a certain point, and yeah,
just just had to to make that call. And you know,
(11:09):
it was it was also just about that the film
isn't about grief, you know, it's not about basking in that,
it's about trying to get the energy of the family
and and Kevin's survival. And again it was just feeding
intoto making a story about Kevin's survival.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And and you know, in the same with Jackie, I think,
you know, in earlier drafts I probably dealt with that
a bit more.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
But again, it was just you know, making a choice
to make Jackie someone talked about.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And then obviously there's you know.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
I feel like there was a little nod to Chris
at Kevin's wedding when when Doris said, you know, good thing,
I can't get pregnant again. And I don't know if
timeline that even matches up that like, okay, it could
have been around that time. I felt that like that
was a little wink if you just paid attention, and
(12:00):
if it wasn't, just let me believe it was. Okay,
I got it. Listen, I know you wanted to tell
this story of the Vonaic family without you know, the
input of one particular person, just just one from one
point of view. And and what I mean by that
is you didn't want it, you know, from Kevin's point
of view or from you know, let's just say someone
inside w CC w'd like Bill Mercer's point of view
(12:20):
on this. What would you say your biggest challenge in
accomplishing that.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Was, though, yeah, again, just trying to trying to collect everything.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
You know. One of the one of the big early
challenges was like how how to make sure the source
is good, How to make sure it's not coming from
like gossip or myth or you know, like those sorts
of things that emerge in in wrestling folklore, and making
sure that that they were you know, we're basing the
events in the movie off of things that did happen
and figuring out those reputable sources, and you know, uh
(12:53):
so that that was really the journey, but just trying
to look at everything and everyone and you know, I
mean again like you know, Chris, you know, making the
decision to lose Chris is one thing, but there's also
like a lot of wrestling detail that I just loved
that I sort of you know, just even you know,
(13:13):
the way the show was shot and those decisions did
to use the camera the way that they did back then,
that was that.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Was all a big.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
That was all, you know, a really difficult decision. And
but ultimately it's about again, it's about Kevin's survival and
Kevin's emotional story.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah. For sure. For those who aren't fans or don't
get what pro wrestling is, there can often be, you know,
at times, a stigma around this form of entertainment. So
I wonder how much convincing there was of individuals at
the studio or with any particular actors to be a
part of a quote unquote wrestling movie.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's interesting, you know, I think.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
So I started working on the in twenty fifteen and
I feel like as I was sort of quietly building
and building the film and putting it together, I think
maybe there were some questions about that, but my love
for wrestling is deep and I just trusted that it.
You know, ultimately, I could I could get people on
(14:21):
side eventually. But I think also in that time, I
feel like wrestling is like, you know, maybe some of
the people who would have said, you know, why would
you do this then probably aren't saying it now. You know,
it feels like we're you know, it's it's it's we're
coming to We're in the sort of I don't know
how to put it, like a you know, we're in
(14:42):
a high point again and it's it's you know what
I mean. And so I think it's some of the
timing of that and building a film a time where
wrestling is having such a great moment.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Again, this was helpful and lucky.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Doesn't hurt that two major stars are pro wrestlers, does it?
Two major movie stars with with the Rock and John?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Absolutely, are watching I met John?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Did you? Oh? How was that.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Incredible?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Are you watching any of the current product?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
You know, not not as regularly as I would like to.
I sort of keep an eye on things, watch occasionally,
watch some of the big matches and stuff, and but yeah,
not as regularly as I like, you're.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
A little busy right now.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I understand yeah to too small kids too.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yes, sll that that'll do it right there. I have
to as well. Clearly A twenty four believes in this
film because you know, it seems like movies that are
promoted as July fourth movies and Christmas releases are ones
that they're you know, pushing to be big ones. What
would you say your expectations for The Ironclore are?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Look, I you know, I I focus on them the
movie and getting the movie made and making the best
movie I believe possible, and beyond that, you know, sort
of handover to them and you know, they've just been
the best partners and they believe in it, and by
releasing it on Christmas, it's sort of, you know, the
(16:17):
ultimate show of how much they believe in it. So yeah,
I mean, look, you know, we've been screening it for
about a month now and it seems to really be
affecting audiences on an emotional level, on a wrestling level,
so so hopefully that continues once once we get it
out wide.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Want to be as professional as I can on an
interview with you. But it did take me back, and
it was it was very weird. It's not the right word,
but it. Man. I've never I haven't been taken back
like that with the WW network. I haven't been taken
back like that with watching old matches on YouTube. I
was watching this movie. I was and I went to
(16:58):
did you ever go to the Sportatorium? I get a
chance to before it was taken down.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Never I went to the ground, went to.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
The ground and I got to be inside the Sportatorium
one time, but not for wrestling. My dad as a
country singer and not not well known, but he was
opening for another artist. The stage was the ring with
no ropes, and after the concert and everything was cleared out,
I wrestled the match in the Sportatorium ring. I guess my.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Father, Wow, that's incredible and.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
To just and I know that wasn't the inside of
the Sportatorium, clearly because the place is gone. But when
when you were shooting, when I saw the first shot
of the inside of the Sportatorium in the movie, I
was like, there it is, that's it. That's the place.
That's the place. Thank you for making this film and
thank you for the hard work you put into it
and for sharing it with with many, many, many people
(17:54):
just like me who you've you've instantly taken back and
uh and provided some even in the middle of so
much heartache for and tragedy and a family, that it
brought some It brought some closure I think for some people,
and uh, you know, I'm gonna speak for them, but
I think that stuff like this does and also just
(18:15):
helps remember a great time in pro wrestling and something
that like I started off the conversation with a kid
from southern Oklahoma and a kid from England had in
common and didn't even didn't even know we were watching
watching the same stuff. And I appreciate you taking the
time to be on the on the podcast today and
it's been great to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Your your reaction means a lot, and that's you know
what I what I hope people are going to get
from it.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
So thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I hope everybody goes to see it. Sean, thank you
so much. Great to talk to you today.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Man
When it comes to professional wrestling. If you were talking
about it, we are talking about it. Welcome to the
wrestle Chat Podcast with the Man. By the end of
this podcast, we can show you how a kid from
southern Oklahoma and another born in Canada and raised in
England have so much in common, all because of their
(00:21):
affection for professional wrestling and specifically the von Eric family.
I being the kid from Oklahoma and my guests discovering
world class championship wrestling after moving no, not to Texas,
but England. He's the writer and the director of The
Iron Claw Sean Dirk and Welcome to the wrestl Chat Podcast.
Good to have you on today.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, so we're talking about a time where, you know,
streaming whatever match that you wanted was well, it was impossible.
It hadn't been invented yet. You were at the mercy
of syndicated television, or if you were lucky, you knew
someone who could record some matches on a VHS and
give those to you. So tell me how did you
come to discover world class championship wrestling from Dallas, Texas
(01:01):
and the von Eric family while living in England?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I mean it was a challenge. So, you know, it
was late eighties, early nineties. I was just so obsessed
with wrestling, you know, it was it was everything to me.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It was I was, you know.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Getting home from school, playing with my wrestling toys, going
to school, trying to convince my friends to come over
my house and wrestle, writing characters for them, like trying
to host events. So it you know, and then every
time something would come through, my dad would take me,
you know, and it was it was everything, but it
was never enough. So it's like every you know, issue
(01:40):
of Pro Wrestling illustrated. I could get my hands on
back orders, you know, like and then and then just
like tapes, any any tape I could find, and and
you know, I must have come across I can't remember exactly,
but I must have come across like a best of
NWA tape you know that had some free birds fun
Eric's uh Sportatory matches on it, and uh, you know,
(02:04):
it was just at that point everything was pretty colorful
and you know, verging on cartoonish. And to discover the
Sportatorium at that moment in time, was it just looked different.
You know, it was exciting, it was it was just
you know, more raw, dirtier. It was, you know, you
just like wanted to be there and feel that energy
(02:25):
and uh and then and then at the same time,
I got to see Kerry live in person in the WWF.
So I was sort of able to, you know, put
these two things together and just just really loved them.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Was Carrie your favorite?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Uh? Yeah, I don't have a shavor, and I love
them all.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Carrie was mine. Carrie was my favorite growing up. And
and they would, you know, not tour like they do now,
that they would come to small you know, gymnasiums in
southern Oklahoma where I grew up, and so it was
you know, now looking back on it, I did not
realize how blessed we were to be so close to
the action and to see the stars that we got
(03:05):
to see in the space that we got to see
them in because it wasn't it wasn't Madison Square Garden,
it was my high school gym.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I mean, in some ways, that's the energy I wanted
to tap into. And making the movie was like to
be that close to these guys in these small places
that were just you know, wrestling so polished and grand.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Now, you know, and just getting.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Back to some of those the purity of it. I
just I just love that time and that's yeah, it's
incredible that you experience.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
That anyone who's who was a fan in real time
while it was going on, has since gone back to
watch you know, documentaries and shoot interviews and things like
that on YouTube. So the stories are out there. But
what I absolutely loved about the movie The Iron Claw
is that it was unsensationalized, if that's a word, and
(03:58):
it was also all in one place. It wasn't from
an objective of somebody trying to you know, prop themselves up.
How How how were you able to compile and make
sense of all the stories that you heard for this
movie in order to make the movie?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, it's it was the big challenge, right, Like you know,
when I started the writing process, I knew a certain
amount just from memory and experience, and but but when
you start digging into the build a timeline of events,
both from a wrestling standpoint, from a sort of family
event standpoint, and then filling in those gaps with you know,
(04:34):
getting to know the brothers through whatever whatever you know,
whatever way you can from what was out there, it's
just such an epic undertaking, and so I started the
process of chipping away and just trying to find the
core of the story, but again without ever trying to
sensationalize anything. I just I just wanted to tell this
(04:54):
human story of you know, I think in some way
some of my original interests in wrestling was like that
these guys are out in the ring performing the ultimate
act of pain or the ultimate act of joy or
you know, or you know you can go and as
an audience member, have all these feelings that they're having
(05:17):
in the ring that you can't necessarily have in life.
And what drew me to this story and what I'm
most interested in was like, well, they were showing all
these emotions in the ring and performing this stuff, but
in real life, they weren't allowed to have those feelings.
They weren't allowed to show their emotions. And so for me,
it was always the way in was always through this
(05:39):
sort of inner inner life and trying to get to that.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
You know. Some of my favorite films ever are the
ones that I find something new every time I watched
them because of all the detail that's in the movie,
and I missed on the first pass or the second pass,
the amount of detail that went into The Iron Claw
was unreal. I mentioned just you know, in a in
the trailer, I saw how the actor portraying Michael Hayes
(06:06):
would bump and he looked exactly like Michael Hayes bumping
back then. And I don't know what Michael Hayes look
like bumping right now, but he looked like him back then.
At least, you know, clearly detail in this film was
very important to you.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Yeah, very important, and it always is, and I think
it's even higher when you're a wrestling fan making a
wrestling movie, Yeah, because you know, you know, as a
wrestling fan, when something comes out about wrestling, you're gonna,
you know, you're gonna take it down if it's not right.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And so I know the bars.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
High and you know when I when I brought in
Chavo Guerrero to to to be my partner on the
wrestling side and to you know, train these actors, and
you know, I told him, I was like this, this
has to be the highest level. You know, people have
to consider this, you know, well one of the best
movies about wrestling you could imagine, because it just has
(07:00):
to be that good in order to to you know,
have people accept it and and so you know, we
set the bar.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
High and and really tried to live up to that.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
No, you did. It was it was wonderful. Do you
not to ask like your favorite one, but do you
have you have one in particular that you wanted to
make sure and fine tune and go this had this
detail or these details need to be spot on?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, you know, it's it's There was definitely some things
like you know, costume things that there's some iconic moments, right,
some of the robes like uh, you know some of
those things.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
We wanted to recreate those.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
So to to to to give you that, you know,
that sense of place, and like having Geno and Brody
in it felt really important, and not only them in
the ring, but.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Then backstage had that conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
That you know them on the road, you know, like
being idiot's in a bar, you know what I mean,
Just like having a bit of having a bit of.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
That life to it felt felt really important.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
And and you know, having like Scanner acbar in the
first scene, like just like these things where we're not
necessarily announcing them, but they're there and if you know
about them, you can see them. But also like if
you're not a wrestling fan, you don't need to know.
And that's and that's important too. It's like that balance
of because I want people to come to this who
(08:19):
are not wrestling fans, who are you know, I want
to like hopefully shed some light on the wrestling world
and the process, you know, to people who are not
into wrestling.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
There and back then too. I mean, I know these
guys would be saying thank god there weren't but there
were no cell phones. Nobody's shooting video of them at
the bar, So you have to use your imagination. And
I feel like the movie gave us a glimpse at
something we'll never get to see of guys like that,
hanging out you know, before matches, after matches, back in
the locker room, things like that.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, it was certainly something I sort of dreamed of
and was like, no, you it's like, what do they do?
You know, what are they doing in the crabby bar
they're going to that night?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And yeah, there's so many stories inside this one grand
story of the Iron Claw. Was there a particular one
that you shot that ended up on the proverbial cutting
room floor?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, for sure, there definitely was there, always there always is.
Obviously there's you know, there's there's I guess along the
like in the whole process, there's always like you're making
these choices to focus the movie, and so there's there's
always things and you're just like, you know, we're just
constantly examining what's the best way to tell the story,
what's the folks to the story, and making those decisions.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
There are two details, uh front end and backhand, Jackie
and Chris that were not a part of this story.
Uh is there was there a And I'm sure there is,
but I want to hear your answer and that it
was their thought process of not including them in this
movie because it's not about necessarily the Vaughan, Eric, the
whole life. It's about it this one together, collective story
(10:03):
that is the movie. What was the thought on not
including them?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, I mean it was. It was the hardest decision
I've ever made as a writer. You know, I wrote
wrote the script for seven years and and Chris was
in it for five of those years. We I you know,
I basically at a certain point have to separate the real
(10:27):
life and you have to focus on characters on a
page and getting a movie made, and what the storytelling
is and you know, on a human level, it's one thing,
but on a storytelling level, there's a repetition that occurs
and that the movie couldn't necessarily sustain.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
And so.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I made the very difficult decision to take some of
some of the things I learned about Chris and bring
them into the character of Mike, so that Mike in
the film is a little bit of Chris, a bit
of Mike, and you know, but but everyone becomes a
character in a movie essentially at a certain point, and yeah,
just just had to to make that call. And you know,
(11:09):
it was it was also just about that the film
isn't about grief, you know, it's not about basking in that,
it's about trying to get the energy of the family
and and Kevin's survival. And again it was just feeding
intoto making a story about Kevin's survival.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And and you know, in the same with Jackie, I think,
you know, in earlier drafts I probably dealt with that
a bit more.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
But again, it was just you know, making a choice
to make Jackie someone talked about.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And then obviously there's you know.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
I feel like there was a little nod to Chris
at Kevin's wedding when when Doris said, you know, good thing,
I can't get pregnant again. And I don't know if
timeline that even matches up that like, okay, it could
have been around that time. I felt that like that
was a little wink if you just paid attention, and
(12:00):
if it wasn't, just let me believe it was. Okay,
I got it. Listen, I know you wanted to tell
this story of the Vonaic family without you know, the
input of one particular person, just just one from one
point of view. And and what I mean by that
is you didn't want it, you know, from Kevin's point
of view or from you know, let's just say someone
inside w CC w'd like Bill Mercer's point of view
(12:20):
on this. What would you say your biggest challenge in
accomplishing that.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Was, though, yeah, again, just trying to trying to collect everything.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
You know. One of the one of the big early
challenges was like how how to make sure the source
is good, How to make sure it's not coming from
like gossip or myth or you know, like those sorts
of things that emerge in in wrestling folklore, and making
sure that that they were you know, we're basing the
events in the movie off of things that did happen
and figuring out those reputable sources, and you know, uh
(12:53):
so that that was really the journey, but just trying
to look at everything and everyone and you know, I
mean again like you know, Chris, you know, making the
decision to lose Chris is one thing, but there's also
like a lot of wrestling detail that I just loved
that I sort of you know, just even you know,
(13:13):
the way the show was shot and those decisions did
to use the camera the way that they did back then,
that was that.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Was all a big.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
That was all, you know, a really difficult decision. And
but ultimately it's about again, it's about Kevin's survival and
Kevin's emotional story.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah. For sure. For those who aren't fans or don't
get what pro wrestling is, there can often be, you know,
at times, a stigma around this form of entertainment. So
I wonder how much convincing there was of individuals at
the studio or with any particular actors to be a
part of a quote unquote wrestling movie.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's interesting, you know, I think.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
So I started working on the in twenty fifteen and
I feel like as I was sort of quietly building
and building the film and putting it together, I think
maybe there were some questions about that, but my love
for wrestling is deep and I just trusted that it.
You know, ultimately, I could I could get people on
(14:21):
side eventually. But I think also in that time, I
feel like wrestling is like, you know, maybe some of
the people who would have said, you know, why would
you do this then probably aren't saying it now. You know,
it feels like we're you know, it's it's it's we're
coming to We're in the sort of I don't know
how to put it, like a you know, we're in
(14:42):
a high point again and it's it's you know what
I mean. And so I think it's some of the
timing of that and building a film a time where
wrestling is having such a great moment.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Again, this was helpful and lucky.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Doesn't hurt that two major stars are pro wrestlers, does it?
Two major movie stars with with the Rock and John?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Absolutely, are watching I met John?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Did you? Oh? How was that.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Incredible?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Are you watching any of the current product?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
You know, not not as regularly as I would like to.
I sort of keep an eye on things, watch occasionally,
watch some of the big matches and stuff, and but yeah,
not as regularly as I like, you're.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
A little busy right now.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I understand yeah to too small kids too.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yes, sll that that'll do it right there. I have
to as well. Clearly A twenty four believes in this
film because you know, it seems like movies that are
promoted as July fourth movies and Christmas releases are ones
that they're you know, pushing to be big ones. What
would you say your expectations for The Ironclore are?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Look, I you know, I I focus on them the
movie and getting the movie made and making the best
movie I believe possible, and beyond that, you know, sort
of handover to them and you know, they've just been
the best partners and they believe in it, and by
releasing it on Christmas, it's sort of, you know, the
(16:17):
ultimate show of how much they believe in it. So yeah,
I mean, look, you know, we've been screening it for
about a month now and it seems to really be
affecting audiences on an emotional level, on a wrestling level,
so so hopefully that continues once once we get it
out wide.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Want to be as professional as I can on an
interview with you. But it did take me back, and
it was it was very weird. It's not the right word,
but it. Man. I've never I haven't been taken back
like that with the WW network. I haven't been taken
back like that with watching old matches on YouTube. I
was watching this movie. I was and I went to
(16:58):
did you ever go to the Sportatorium? I get a
chance to before it was taken down.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Never I went to the ground, went to.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
The ground and I got to be inside the Sportatorium
one time, but not for wrestling. My dad as a
country singer and not not well known, but he was
opening for another artist. The stage was the ring with
no ropes, and after the concert and everything was cleared out,
I wrestled the match in the Sportatorium ring. I guess my.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Father, Wow, that's incredible and.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
To just and I know that wasn't the inside of
the Sportatorium, clearly because the place is gone. But when
when you were shooting, when I saw the first shot
of the inside of the Sportatorium in the movie, I
was like, there it is, that's it. That's the place.
That's the place. Thank you for making this film and
thank you for the hard work you put into it
and for sharing it with with many, many, many people
(17:54):
just like me who you've you've instantly taken back and
uh and provided some even in the middle of so
much heartache for and tragedy and a family, that it
brought some It brought some closure I think for some people,
and uh, you know, I'm gonna speak for them, but
I think that stuff like this does and also just
(18:15):
helps remember a great time in pro wrestling and something
that like I started off the conversation with a kid
from southern Oklahoma and a kid from England had in
common and didn't even didn't even know we were watching
watching the same stuff. And I appreciate you taking the
time to be on the on the podcast today and
it's been great to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Your your reaction means a lot, and that's you know
what I what I hope people are going to get
from it.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
So thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I hope everybody goes to see it. Sean, thank you
so much. Great to talk to you today.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Man
Host
Anthony "The AntMan" Lay
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!