💥 "Gary Hart's War Stories: Von Erich Chaos, Brody's Final Night & Freebird Bloodbaths"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Titlematchnetwork dot Com. Welcome to another edition of the RF
Video Shooting Interview series. So you were joined by legendary
manager Gary Hart. Thanks for being with us today. My
very first question for you would be how you broke
into the wrestling business and were you a fan growing up.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
I first became interested in wrestling when I was a kid.
I used to go visit my uncle in southern Illinois
and we would watch matches with the killwater not to kill,
but the guys at wrestler to killed. It was at.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
What was the name of that building, the Chase.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
It was at early morning show, and I first wrestler
I really saw that I really liked was Rippulk. Oddly enough,
I ended up manage to him about fifteen years later.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Wow, So you did you know you wanted to get
into the wrestling business when you were younger.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
I sort of got in by accident.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
I was a competitive swimmer and I was at a
swim meet in Fox Lake, Illinois or Billy Gails, who
was the one of the big names in Chicago at
the time.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
He was also a matchmaker.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
For Red Kohler, and I got a little got to
know him, and as time went by, he trained me
and broke me in in nineteen sixteen.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
What was it training like?

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Very difficult, very difficult, Probably more so.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Hard on the guys of my generation, because there were
a lot of guys, you know, in their late forties
early fifties that were finishing up their career and they
like to come into the training class and stretch us
pretty good, and so I paid my dues.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
All right, did you find taking bumps are harder aspect
to learn as far as picking up.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
The business or the psychology, Well, psychology anyone could fall down.
But learning how to pace yourself to have a beginning,
a middle in an end, I think is the most
important thing. And having good opponents. And I was fortunate
that I had Billy Gil's, Johnny Case, Johnny Gilbert, Bad Boy, Joe,
Bobby Manenkall. Quite a few old timers at warn't as

(02:06):
disgruntled that your career was over and would actually go out.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
And try to have a match with you and teach
you how to have a match.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Right, What are some of your early memories of your
first matches?

Speaker 2 (02:16):
To be honest with you, it was so long and good.
It was over forty seven years ago. I remember the
match that I remember. I don't remember my first match,
but my second match I remember because it was the
Marigold Arena. That match, I remember, I wrestled a guy
by the name of Tiger Mawoi and I remember I
went fifteen minutes through. That's that was my main mamber.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
Like you say, you know, forty seven years, it was
pretty hard.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
To premember, right right. What were some of the early
territories that you worked as a wrestler.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
My first two that I actually wrestled in was Chicago,
which consisted of Wisconsin, Ohio, forts of Indiana, and then
once I left Chicago, I went on to Detroit where
I wrestled for a gentleman by the name Bert Ruby,
and we wrestled in the Michigan area. Those were the

(03:08):
first two territories that I wrestled in, and that's where
I met George the Animal Steel. At the time, he
was wrestling under a mask by the name of the Student.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
I was his manager and I helped break him in.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Was the first guy that I really helped bring to
national prominence gies before I had Angelo Poflo and Johnny Case,
but they were well established. George was probably my first project,
someone that I really tried to help to understand wrestling.
I had been in three years at that time. He

(03:42):
was just started, so well, he was my first project.
He was my guinea pig. I did a hell of
a job winning, I.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Believe now, as far as wrestling and managing, what made
you switch from manager?

Speaker 2 (03:55):
I really wasn't that great, you know. I mean I
was a ham andager. I could have competed mad a living.
But I realized early on that I had a good
eye for talent. I could see a guy and learn
and know how to develop. I don't know where I
learned that. It just was something that I had. And
I learned pretty quickly that my big success would be

(04:17):
finding other people and pack each of them in the
right way and give them a little direction and take
care of the office business.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
I was always very good at that, so.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Pretty early on I decided that I would be a
much better manager. I did leave Detroit and I went
to Amarillo and I wrestled there for about six or
eight months. I really didn't care for Emerald. I came
from Chicago and Detroit. Amarillo was a culture shock to me, right,
I mean where I grew up, you could eat twenty

(04:52):
four hours a day. Movie houses open twenty four hours
a day, pool halls open twenty four hours a day.
Cities had never sleep. But I went to I'm a Relbo, Texas,
and it was culture shock. I hated it out there.
I couldn't stand it by wrestled for the funks for
about six months. I decided this isn't for me, you know,
I had to get out of there, and I went

(05:12):
to Dallas and with Carlvon Browner and Al Costello and
I started to manage in full time. After that, that
was my main state, was those two guys.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Do you think your experience as a wrestler helped you
become a great manager, No, I don't.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
I just think it was an innate ability I had.
Like I said, I had a good eye for talent.
I dealt well with others, especially promoters. The power structure
never affected me. I was never afraid to get fired.
I was never afraid for someone to say no to me.
So I think, you know, I was a natural manager.
I think anyone can learn to be a wrestler, can't

(05:52):
learn to be a great rustling, can't learn how to
draw money, But a good manager you're born with those
abilities and abilities that you picked.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
Up on the street. I was a street kid.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
From Halsted Street in Chicago, so I came from the
inner city, so I know how to deal with people.
And I believe that probably as a manager, I knew
that I could see other guys out of position there, right,
and that's I just picked it up and went on
with it.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Who gave you the name playboyd myself?

Speaker 2 (06:26):
When I started, I was Hurricane Hardhei. Billy Geltz gave
me that name, and as soon as I left Chicago.
As you know, Playboy Enterprises comes from Chicago, right, I
like Tod Aim. So when I went to Bert Ruby
and Detry to change my name to Playboy Garry Harry.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
How did you actually end up working for Bart Ruby?

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Bert Ruby? I was in Chicago, managed and Angelo Paflo
and Johnny Case and I believe in nineteen sixty one
or sixty two, Buddy Rogers lost his world title to
Luths in Toronto on my birthday. Matter of fact, I
believe it was January twenty fourth, nineteen sixty one. And

(07:07):
when Buddy lost the title, the business in the Chicago
area really really became ban Shortly after that, Twitzmund and
Vince McMahon and Cola Karani decided to pull their talent
out of Chicago, and Drek Kohler brought a guy in
by the name of Jack Feffer. A lot of people
may not be familiar with him, but he was a

(07:30):
Rinki Deep promoter. And I was told by my mentor,
Billy Gales not to get involved with this guy because
if I did, it would carry a stigmatism about it
over the years.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
So he sent me up to go to Detroit. So
I left Chicago.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
How'd you wind up working with the Sheik?

Speaker 2 (07:49):
And all that? More? Initial questions of the Sheikh? Well,
Sheikh was a very special person to me. I lived
at his house. He was a father figure to me.
He allowed me to go on TV and learn how
to be the guy I became. He allowed me to
pick the talent that I wanted to manage. I loved

(08:09):
you to death. He was a wonderful guy. I will
say I never made a lot of money with him,
but the experience that I gained from him was invaluable.
How far did did she go to protect his character
as far as humanly possible? He would never speak in public,
and if you would even try to call him, Eddie,

(08:31):
you were in a lot of trouble. She was very,
very very protective of his image. He wouldn't talk to
anyone unless he had a one on one relationship with you,
would not talking.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Did he ever work some of the green guys?

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Not really, not that I remember Fred Curry, who I
couldn't call green. He had been in the business about
two or three years, and he was Bull Curry's son,
and Bull Curry and the Sheep both were very good friends.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
So Sheikh russelled Freddy quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
What are some of your early memories of the matches
with him and marklan Oh?

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Just pandemonium. I mean the Kobol Arena or the Cincinnati Garden,
or in Columbus or Dayton or Toledo. I mean they
packed their buildings and him and Mark Lewin probably had
some of and Bobo Brazil would be the two guys
that really were responsible for really drawing the money.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
The rest of us were just icing on the cake.
But they were the guys.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
That packed the people in we were What were your
initial impressions about Mark lan.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Oh Mark lun I met Mark Luhn in my early
days in Chicago. I met Mark in nineteen sixty one.
We hit it off right away, we became friends and
ever remained friends for fifty years.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Just about did you ever pattern in your style as
a manager? I guess after anyone or anything.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Not really more or less.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
I I tried to present my in a manner that
never took away from the talent I represented. I never
wanted to be a Jimmy Hart. I never wanted to
be a James Carnet or a guy like Bobby Heat
And I didn't want to be the center of attention.
I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. It fit

(10:17):
that perfectly. But for me, I was more of your
laid back manager. I took care of my business in
the office and preparing the guys for the match and
the direction we're going. And I would get involved occasionally
at ringside if need be. But I never tried to
be the show. I wanted to be, you know, represent
the guy and never try to do anything to take

(10:40):
anything away from him. I didn't want him to say, oh,
we like this guy, but we hate Gary Hart. I
wanted them to hate him because I realized he russelled
every night. I didn't, and my job was to present
him in the best flight and to get him over
as best I could. And if I got it tried

(11:00):
to become the show, then it would just distract from him.
So I always tried to be like second Dary.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
I never was.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
But you know, I never tried to be the show.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
But by being the guy in the corner, you're gonna
get recognized and people are gonna hate you anyway. So
I knew that, So I more or less tried to
make sure that the focus was.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
On the piece of talent that I was managing.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Back then, could you make a full time living in
the days of the territories as a manager?

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Oh god, guess see. I never looked at myself as
preliminary talent. I always got main event money. If you
weren't willing to pay me what you paid the talent
I was representing and the talent we was wrestling, I
wouldn't come to your territory. I always got main event money.
I got a share of the purse.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
Did the boys back then see managers on a lower tire?

Speaker 2 (11:53):
Some managers, They did some managers because a lot of
managers were looked at as guys that pulled legs or
pass gimmicks. I steered away from that. My work came
from who I picked, how I developed them, how I
presented them, who I picked them to work with, what
kind of programs I allowed them to be in. But
most of important is no win. To take them off

(12:14):
the main event, drop them down on the card, and
get them some wins on TV to re establish them.
So therefore I wasn't looked at as you know, a
guy that pulled legs. When I managed you, I managed
you our deal. When I made a deal with a guy,
you listen to me, and I will make you money.

(12:36):
When you're unhappy with me, tell me a most part ways.
But as long as you're with me, I'm the one
that's responsible for the direction. And guys saw that hit
me early on, and they like that because they knew
if I was taking care of their business, they didn't
have to worry about anything but getting too the arena,

(12:57):
showing up on time, and having the best possible.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
So no, no, they were you the manager. But you
were kind of like a shoe manager as well.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Although I was a shoe manager, I never managed anyone
for the office. I never pulled legs for somebody for
a living. If I took you on that I was
your manager, and you were expected to listen to me
and take my advice.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
And over a period.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Of time, after I was right enough times the guys
they would listen to me and know that I had
their best interests at heart. Yeah. I wasn't your typical
manager that worked for a rustling office and every guy
that came through I managed. I didn't do that.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Okay, from Detroit, how did you wind up in Emerald Uh?

Speaker 2 (13:44):
I was contacted by Dory Funk, who was a good
friend of Eddie Farhead's right, and she getty for it.
He would wrestle in Amorule quite a bit, and Senior
was looking for talent and Sheikh said, I got a
kid in Detroit. And at that time Jim Mars, who

(14:08):
was the student had left Detroit who I was managing,
and he went to Pittsburgh for Brutos Amtino and became
George the Animal Steel. And I wanted to take a
venture and ma Sheik said, I can get you booked
at Amarilla. Would you like to go? And I said, hell, yeah,
I'll do you.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
What are some of your early memories of Doris Singer?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
He was a rough guy. He was a real rough guy,
A fair guy, first guy that ever paid me what
I really deserved and opened my eyes how I should
be paid. I worked a lot with his sons, Dori
and Terry. Art Nilsen was there at the time. Ricky
Romero was there at the time. It was a great territory,
very long trips, real long trips, and nowhere conditioned in

(14:53):
the buildings. I mean, it was horrendous. But there was
a guy that took a desert and turned it into
a paradise for him and his sons and did very
well for many, many years.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
What were your early impressions of all?

Speaker 3 (15:07):
Sorry, Terry, how met Terry Funk.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
I was wrestling his brother Dory in the Amarillo Fairgrounds
and they had set up of match. Terry had been
at training camp for the Kansas City Chiefs and I
was in a match, as I said, with Dorry Funk Jr.
And the plan for the evening was to switch me
from wrestling junior and start wrestling Terry. So at the

(15:34):
time I was using a move called the iclone where
I would grab you by your eye and I would
always get disqualified. The whole idea was once I locked
it in, I would cut my fingers with a razor
blade so it would be down their face. And I
had Junior in an iclaw and I heard this roar
coming from the crowd of thing once you know where's

(15:56):
this coming from? And it was Terry Funk running to
the ring, and he tried to jump over the top
rope and caught his foot and fell right in the
middle of the ring. And Junior said, by the way, Gary,
that's my brother Terry. That's how I met Terry Fun.
That's great.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Who did you manage there? Because I know you actually
managed Dusty Roselire, young Dusty right, not an ammorroll?

Speaker 2 (16:19):
Okay. I didn't manage any one am. I was just wrestling.
I took a hiatus. I was very disappointed when George
and I broke up. I really liked him, spent a
lot of time developing him.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
And I just wrestled there.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
I was taking partners with Art Nielsen and wrestled a
lot with Dorry and Terry. I wrestled a lot with
Ricky Romero. I wrestled a lot with Gory Guerrero. So
mainly there I just rustled. I did not manage.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
What about Paul Bosh, How did that come about?

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Paul Bosch was the promoter in Houston, Texas and excellent promoter,
but a very difficult guy I had. I can't say
I had the greatest relationship put him in the world,
but I had decent relationship.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
My problem was.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
Fritz van erikanet Maclamore took the booking office out of Houston,
which was owned by Morris Sigel, and Paul bish was
more Sigel's right hand man, and I came in and
helped Fritz switch the booking office. And I think there
was always a little bit of resentment towards me, not
a lot. Most of it was directed towards Fritz, but

(17:28):
because I was with Fritz, some of that he came
to me. But I would say Paul and I we
had a decent relationship. Sometime it was great and some.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
Time it was horrible.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Right, Speaking of George Steell, what was he look outside
the rink from back then?

Speaker 2 (17:45):
The same in many ways. I mean, he didn't need
turnpuckles writings. But George, you know, he was a football coach,
school teacher, a football player, amateur wrestler. You know, he
was he was your typical job. That was him.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Seeking of Fritz van Erica, how did you wind up
actually meeting for the very first time.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
In Detroit When George Steele was wrestling as the student,
Fritz van Eric would come into Detroit, and Fritz for
many years was the bad guy, the big hated bad guy.
But when he came back to Detroit, they put him
with George Steele and I and he became a big
fan favored. And he told me said, someday I'm going

(18:29):
to have a territory, and I do sure like for
you to come and help me, you know, run my
business and present.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
Talent for me.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
Right. So two or three years went by and when
I was in Amalia or Rustley, he came through and
Morilla to russell me because it was claw against the claw,
because he was really over with the head claw and
I had the iphon. It was a perfect man. And
he asked me, said, are you ready to make a move,
but come to Dallas at Maclamore and I are in

(18:58):
the process of trying to win the booking office out
of Houston. In front of Dallas. He said, if you
come to Dallas, you'll have a lifetime job and you
could help me run the business there. Because he had
known me from Detroit, he knew I had ideas. He
knew I knew how to develop talent, So you know
I had a good thing going with him.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
What were initial presions of him?

Speaker 2 (19:20):
Did you like? You know, Fritz and I had a
very peculiar relationship for over twenty five years. I was
his booker, I was his matchmaker, I was his TV producer,
I was his adviser. I was many things, But I
don't think I was ever a friend. I don't think
we could ever call each other friends. We were completely different.

(19:41):
Fritz was a guy that he was happy if he
was out playing with his cows, or driving his tractors,
or shooting quail or dove, or going deer hunt and
they're going wild hog counting me being an inner city kid,
those things did not interest me.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
And the only thing him and I had in.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Common was our love for wrestling and the way we
made our living. Other than that, him and I we
were complete at the other end of the spectrum, but
all in all, we worked well together for over twenty
five years.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
Your very first run with Fritz?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
How did that end? The very first round with Fritz,
I was with Carl and Brunner and al Coustell and
as I said I had had a problem with Paul
because I was the guy that helped Fritz take the
booking office.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
So the first time we drew a decent house where
I should have.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Been paid, Carlo and Brunner and Alcostello got one hundred
and fifty dollars and I got money and I got.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Seventy five dollars. I went to Paul Big and I.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Said, hey, I get to say that my talent kits
and I expect to be paid one hundred and fifty dollars.
And he said to me, well, if you were anything
other than a manager, maybe i'd consider paid that.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
When he did, I smack you right across his face.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Fritz okay, And I left right and I was called
to Fritz's office and at Fritz Danny Pletcher's probably at Maclamore,
and they're all upset with me. Why did you leave Houston?
Why did you smack Paul Wise? You can't do things
like that, And I said, hey, you two guys, fuck

(21:23):
Paul Pi out of his booking office right. And now
you're worried about me smacking because he didn't pay me.
You can all go fuck yourself. I'm out of here.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
And I left.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
All right, how much of a student of the business
had you become by this point?

Speaker 2 (21:37):
I was well intriched.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
Was there anyone who slved up to this point in
your career that you knew would make it big?

Speaker 2 (21:46):
Hm? Hm?

Speaker 3 (21:46):
I knew George Animal Steel was going to be something
really special, right.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
I knew that.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
I knew that for sure.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
In Amillo, Were you really given the name gay Gary?

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah? That's another reason I was very unhappy with that,
because when I went in there, I had no idea
what he had in mind for me. When he came,
he told me, said, you're going to have to gay,
Gary Hart, and I want you to act gay.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
And I said, I'm not going to do that. He said,
what do you mean to do it?

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Courageous?

Speaker 2 (22:15):
George did it Johnny Bear? And I said, I just
don't think it's right. I don't think it's right Gould
demean homosexuals. I just don't feel that's right at all.
And I'm not going to present myself as someone that
is something I'm not.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
Now, if you want to call me.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
Gay, Gary Hart, that's fine, but I am not going
to try to imitate or make light of someone that's gay.
I just felt that was really really wrong. How do
you want back up in Detroit. Well, when I smacked
Paul Bis and told Fritz and Macklin were to go
fuck themselves, I went home, you know, back to the Chikan.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
Burt Ruby, did you like moving around so much?

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Or Yeah?

Speaker 3 (22:56):
I never minded that at all, you know, I thought
it was a great adventure.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
How did you and Fritz resolve your issues? Finally?

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Well, we never really did ever. I mean, we had
a working relationship, but I don't think we were ever.
We were always at odds. But on this particular occasion,
I was back in Detroit. A good friend of mine,
Billy red Lions, who russell quite a bit in Texas,
and he would come to Detroit and another guy by
the name of Kill Carl Cox. They were coming into

(23:24):
Detroit and Texas. That's going to sound like, you know,
I'm a primid, But business had really taken a tumble
because I really got over there. I created a lot
of excitement.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
And drew a lot of money.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
And when I left, Carl and Al really had lost
their luster. They neither won were good interviews. They were
both in their mid forties at that time, and I
was a young kid that generated a lot of heat,
and Fritz started sending messages back and forth with Billy

(23:56):
Red Lions and.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Carl Cox to tell me to give him a call.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Very candid with him, I said, Hey, if he wants
to call me, give me my number and tell him
to give me a call.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
So after a few.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Months he did, and we straightened out the money problems.
He understood that whatever the percent was that my talent got,
I got to make it very clear to you. In
those days, the main event got thirty two percent of
the girls, and if there were four guys, each guy
got eight percent. When I was involved, it was five

(24:30):
and a quarter apiece. If it was the guy I
represented and our opponent, we would split sixteen percent three ways.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
I think it was five and a quarter apiece something
like that.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
And once that was armed out and I knew that
my money was guaranteed, then I said okay, and I
went back.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Do you think Fritz had more respect for you since
you didn't roll over and just take it?

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (24:54):
Of course he did. Of course he did, because.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
He realized early on that I had something to offer.
I helped him take the booking office. I helped make
him a very very successful promoter, So yeah, he definitely
knew that Gary Hart was someone he wanted on his side.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Whose idea wasn't the parody without Don Jardine.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
I had met Don Jardine just slightly in Amarillo on
my way out, and when Fritz had contacted me, said
do you have anyone you would be interested in.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
Bringing to Texas?

Speaker 2 (25:32):
And at the time I really didn't all right, because
I didn't know how long I was going to be
there because if the money wasn't the way they said.
Because they told me the first time that I would
be figured in on the Mate event money that was
all understood.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
The first time. So the second time I was leary.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
I took a chance and Fritz said, do you know
a guy named Don Georgine? I said, I met him
and amroll. He said, how would you like to bring
him in to Many Chairman? I said, I think it'd
be great, and then we decided to put a mask
on him.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
What was the magic between you two? Don and I?

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Don had been in a wrestling business for twelve years.
He had been lied to, cheated, misused, abused in every
way possible, and he trusted me and he understood that
my main concern was his best interest to take care

(26:33):
of him, and after a few months he understood that
Gary Hart is the best thing that ever happened to me,
And in many ways he was the best thing that
ever happened for me.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
I was going to ask you, how instrumental is it
to your career?

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Well, a lot of people say Gary Hart made a
lot of guys, but Don Jardine made me. Don Jardine
gave me the opportunity to become who I became in wrestling.
Without Donald, my career would a flurry that sometime. I
don't know exactly when, but he was the guy that
really put me over the top and really made me

(27:07):
someone that promoters would listen to and say, Hey, ask
Gary what he thinks.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Do you think you could have been a world champion?

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Oh? Of course he could have. The only bad thing
about Don was a promoters were scared to death of him.
Donald was not above slapping a promoter around. If a
promoter tried to lie to him or cheating want to
pay off, Donald would have no problem smacking them around.

(27:34):
So for that reason alone, they would never give him
a position as a world heavywech Could he have carried
that title, of course, he could.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
Have memories of yourself going over to Australia. For Jim Barnett, well,
that also was Don Jardine. He was the one that
made that possible. As I said, I went to Texas
with him and we really really got over a big time.
I mean, he was such a sensation.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
And Barnett contacted me and asked if I would bring
him to Australia and Donald and I went and he
was tremendous. He did tremendous business with Mario Mlonalds, biras Ario,
Bob Ellis, Donlio, Jonathan, all the great guys of that time.
Donald probably was the biggest, other than Bruno San Martino.

(28:22):
I think he did more dollar per arena business than anyone.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
I guess when in your career did you start getting
more involved with booking around year?

Speaker 3 (28:31):
Was that around from nineteen sixty three.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
My deal was with a promoter.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
When I managed to guy, I was responsible for who
he was wrestling, what match he was on, what angles
he would work, the interviews that would be laid out.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
I was responsible for all of that.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
So as someone that was manipulating my guys, really very
very early on ends in when I got involved in
the booking as an unofficial booker would have probably been
sixty six sixty seven with Fritz, even though Danny Pletcher's
would have been the booker of record. I was more

(29:15):
or less responsible for a lot of the angles and
a lot of the talent selection members of managing Ivan
koff Oh. I managed Ivan in Australia. I had a
good time with Ivan. Ivan was the first Russian to
come to Australia. And the bad thing was he spoke
no legend right, And in Australia was a very ethnic country,

(29:39):
a lot of Poles, a lot of Ukrainians, a lot
of Greeks, a lot of Serbs, a lot of Lebanese.
So therefore a lot of people from the Eastern Bloc.
They spoke Russian, or they could speak enough Russian, and
they would holler and screen at Ivan in Russia, and
all Ivan could say was die and noprah. But he

(30:01):
got over really really big at Australia, drew a lot
of money with Spiras.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
Area, the big Greek guy did very very.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
Well with him.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
I haven't just come out in the minute having a
drinking problem back then, do you remember that at all?

Speaker 2 (30:12):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, him rip Parker's Sweet Hats and got
drunk three times in one day.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
We were leaving prison in Australia.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
We used to be at Brisbane on Wednesday and then
Thursday we would be off and I meet Ivan Ripping
Sweet at the airport in Brisbane that morning.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
They were drunk from the night before. We got on
the plane and flew back to Sydney.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
It's about a two and a half hour in flight,
and by the time they got back to Sydney they
had sobered up a little bit because I had asked
Ivan and Rippin Sweet, you know, please let's not drink
on the plane, you know, because I don't want any trouble, right,
So we got back to the city and I went
to my place and they went to the keys Cross
and they were coming to my house for dinner at

(30:55):
around six o'clock that evening.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
So between the time they got off the plane until they.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Got to my house at six o'clock in the evening,
they had got drunk again. And when they showed up
at my place at six, Ripping Swede was still walking
carrying high.

Speaker 3 (31:13):
And I even think God was a lovable drunk. He
was just a happy, go lucky guy.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
So we all had dinner and I at the time
I had a penthouse at Sydney. My wife and I
were there and I had an extra bedroom, so I
told I would please take the bed and wake up
in the morning and we'll go out on the balcony
and grab some sun and have a nice breakfast. So
we put Ivan to bed. Ripping Sweet left. But two

(31:39):
hours later, my wife she hears some noise and she's
scary something something's going on in the bedroom. Did I
even fall out of the bedrooms? Didn't fall down or something?
I said, I don't know, I'll go look, and I
went into the bedroom and Ivan was gone. The next
day I see him and Ripping Swede when I come
to the Sydney Rushcutters Bay Stadium, and I said, what

(32:00):
happened last night? So I met Rippon Sweden. We all
got drunk all over again. I got drunk three times.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
A wow, that's funny. How'd you wind up in Georgia?

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Well, Jim Barnett had sold Australia and bought into the
Atlanta promotion. And by that time I had been with
Jim Barnett off and on for six years. And he
asked me if I would come to Atlanta to help
him with selecting talent and developing talent. So that's how I.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
Got that job. What are you remembers about fred Warden.

Speaker 3 (32:35):
Had no time crime. It was a fat bastard, a thief.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Why is that?

Speaker 3 (32:40):
Because that's what he was. Just a yeah, bad person.
He was a bad person.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
He treated rustlers like secondary citizens, and I wasn't going
to allow that, you know, to me, he was just
a fat bastard that had one little town right. I
had worked for Jim Barnett. I had worked for Fritz Viallne.
I had worked for Johnny darl and the Sheik. I
had worked for Frank Toney. I mean, I had worked

(33:05):
for big time wrestling promoters and drew a tremendous amount
of money by this time in my career. And for
this fat piece of shit to try to tell me
anything or try to screw me out of money, I
had no time for him at all.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Do you regret working for Ward and not? Uncle?

Speaker 2 (33:25):
No? No, I didn't work for Fred. I worked for
Jim Barnett. Fred Ward had two towns. He had Columbus
and he had maked. I didn't work for him. He
was a promoter. I worked for Jim Barnett back then.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
How dirty were the promotional wars?

Speaker 3 (33:41):
Pretty dirty? I mean it was serious.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
It wouldn't be They come around the arena, they cut
your tars, take a shot or two at you on
the highway, try to run you off the road, things
like that.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
You also worked for al Bill Watts. What are you
memberies of working for?

Speaker 2 (33:58):
I love Bill Watts. Never had a problem with Bill Watts.
All the stories I hear are probably true, but I
never had that kind of relationship with him. Once again,
I met Bill with Bill was beginning to become a
promoter in Oklahoma. Fritz Van Eric ran Gania and him

(34:18):
went in to help me Mary McGirk and I was
sent in to be one of Bill's assistants. And I
never had.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
Anything but good times with Bill Watts every place I
was ever at.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
I was going to ask you, do you think his
reputation as a bully is learned?

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah? It is, Yeah it is. Have you ever seen
anything firsthand or not directed towards me to others, Yes,
but never to me.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Anything you want to talk about Fredonni Biller.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
We'll give you a perfect example, Ox Baker. Every time
Ox would have a match. Ox was a big, awkward
guy who drew a lot of money. He wasn't the
greatest mechanic in the world, but he was quite an attraction.
And to me, the thing, the most important thing was
do you sell a ticket? Well, buy a ticket to
see you. And if you can make people buy a ticket,

(35:04):
I can work around you. I can put people with
you that will make you look good. You don't have
to be the greatest innering performer, but if you have
the ability to make people buy a ticket, then I
will take the time that surrounds you with talent that
would make you look better than you really are. Where
Bill's attitude was, he would book whoever he thought he

(35:29):
wanted against Ox, and.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
The matches sometime were not too good.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
And I remember a couple of times he would come
back and Bill would say, are you ever going to
learn to work? You're the worst worker I ever met
in my life and really running down, really really bad.
So Ox would come to me and he said, carry
am I really that bad? I said, no, Auction, not
that bad, I said, who the hell is Bill? You
don't know how to work either. So a few days later,

(35:56):
same situation in the dressing room gets on him again,
screaming at him, and Ox stood up and he said, well,
how would you know if I could work or not,
because you damn sure can't. And Bill said, well, how
would you know? He said, Gary Hart told me, and
Bill turned bright red. You know what I mean, just

(36:19):
like steam coming out, And he just shook his head
and laughed and walked out of the room. That's great.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
You once called Jerry Jared a thief. Why do you
say that?

Speaker 3 (36:30):
It's just a thief.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
He's a bum, he's a pig, he's a piece of shit.
Tell you a story. I was into Carolinas for Jim Crockett.
Mister Crockett was a quality man in every way. I
was here with Rip Hawkin sweet Anson and Jim Burnett
called me. He said, Gary, I'm doing my final tur
in Australia. I'd like to have you a big part
of it. So I went to mister Crockett and told

(36:51):
me that Jim Barnett had asked me to come back
on the final tur for Australia. And mister Crockett knew
the Folles who was buying in to Australia. And mister
Crockett asked me, said Gary, would you do me a favor? Said,
I know that when a new operation takes over, it's
going to be some difficulties, and would you mind, you know,

(37:13):
trying to be as helpful as you possibly could. And
I told him, of course, mister Crockett, anything I can
do for you, I'd be moren't happy to And I
went off to Australia with that in mind, and Bruce
Bernard and I were the only ones of the crew
that were cooperative. Mark Lewin would do nothing for the
Tennessee talent, Chris i Ka Mary o'mawana, Bulldog Brower, the

(37:37):
Steiger brothers, no one would do anything. So Bruce Bernard
and I really became, you know, the guys that got
damn established. And I wasn't looking for a praise or
I wasn't looking for a thank you, but they never
bothered to say thank you for what you've done here
for us. So I left Australia. I went back to

(38:00):
Texas with Breu Bernard and Missouri Maler, had a nice
little run there, and then Jim Burnett called and asked
if I would come to Atlanta, And oddly enough, at
that time, Missouri Maler and Bruce Bernard went to Atlanta too,
but they went for the Guncles and I went for Barnett.
Now I had been Brup Bernard's manager and Fred for

(38:23):
many many years and had a real good relationship with
the Missouri.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
Maler and he made a lot of money with both
these guys.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
So we knew that we were going to competing promotions,
but that was not going to affect the way we
felt about each other. So when I got there, Bill
Wats was the booker and everything was going really, really well.
Bill had some real problems with Fred Warren. Jim Burnett
sent him to book Florida and brought in Jerry Jarrett.

(38:52):
Now here's a guy that looked down at rustlers, thought
that they was someone too to abuse. I had just
helped his uncle in Australia and his cousins, did everything
in my power to help them be successful. And he
comes into Georgia and he's going to tell me who

(39:16):
I'm going to manage, how I'm going to manage them,
and what I'm going.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
To say and do on TV. And I said, no,
that ain't the way it is.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
You know, I don't work for you.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
I work for Jim Barnett. He's very happy with me.
I've been very successful with Jim. If you have anything
to say to me, you tell Jim. So one day
he told me, if you don't do what I say,
I'm going to straighten you out. So I slapped him
around a little bit. Was no big deal.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
He's on his sixty pound guy.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
I was two eighty.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
I'm a Chicago kid.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
You know. I've been in a street fight since I
was six years old. So it was no big deal.
But he was very disrespectful to me.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
So I straightened him out out of that result, after that,
I got fired. Okay, I was gonna.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Ask you, what happened?

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Did you leave Georgia on bad terms after all that?

Speaker 3 (40:11):
Well, I don't think it was good terms.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
But it didn't affect my relationship that badly with Jim
Barnett because she also sent me to Florida.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
I was gonna ask you, how did you wind up
working for Eddie Graham?

Speaker 2 (40:23):
I didn't work for Eddie Graham and worked for Jim Barnett.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Down in flid Okay, yeah, did you?

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Eddie was the promoter, but Jim owned the piece of
the business, right I was. My Laurelty was towards Jim Barnett.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Memories of Eddie Graham.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Eddie was a hardcore guy, a very bad payoff man,
which I did not like. I remember fourth of July
nineteen sixty four, Jacksonville Civic Center. We had fifty thousand
dollars house. To imagine fifty thousand dollars in nineteen seventy four.

(41:00):
Dusty Rhodes Packsaw paid pack and I five hundred apiece one.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, that's pretty bad.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah. I never liked him because of the way he
paid his talent, and I would not have stayed without
Jim Barnett encouraging me and sending me money from Atlanta.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Do you agree with a lot of people what they
say about Eddie as far as being one of the
best finished guys in the business.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
I think Eddie Graham knew how to manipulate wrestlers. I
think his finishes were obvious, knocking down the referees. I
think it became maybe in the beginning it was unique,
but as time went on, I think a lot of

(41:50):
people as soon as they saw a referee go down,
they start looking to the back. Was he a great man, yes,
said wrestling, But was he the smartest guy I ever met?

Speaker 1 (41:58):
No, why do you think and he killed himself.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
God, I couldn't even fantom I guess why he would
do something like that. I mean, he had a wonderful son,
Mike always liked Mike. Mike was really a nice guy.
He had a nice, lovely wife, He had a great business.
I don't know why. How do we know why anyone
would do something like that.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
A lot of people say he was involved with the
wrong people in the state and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Well, yeah, you know, I mean there are so many
rumors as far as factual information on things like that.
I really don't know.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
Take us back to the night that Dusty turned babyface
in Florida.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Well, that was a unique situation because Jack Briscoe was
the biggest thing that had hit Florida in years, and
Dusty came in at the time with Jack was the
world's heaving been championed and war. It was situation. If

(43:01):
Jack Briscoe wasn't on the card, it was very hard
to draw money. You could get a house, but you
couldn't do big business. And Dusty was a heel along
with Pack's Song and Bill Watson Eddie. It was obvious
to all of us and Dusty was becoming a fan

(43:22):
favorite because him and I.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
Would do little things during the match.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
Where I would try to tell him something to do
and he would rebel and tell me no, and I
would demand he'd do it.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
He would jump out of the ray.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Come down at pointed, so the people we were giving
them little hints that something was up.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
And then we did the final switch in.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
The arm ring with Mike Graham and Eddie Graham against
Dusty and Pack Song. I can't remember the exact scenario,
but it was something where Pack ended up hitting Dusty
and knocking Dusty to the floor and that Pack was
beating on it. Graham and Dusty came in and cleaned
the ring, and from then on he was He was

(44:04):
the American Dream.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Did he produce as expected or more so?

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Was the baby Face? Oh yes, I don't think anyone.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
I mean we knew it was going to be good,
but I don't think anyone really understood what was going
to happen. I mean, once he made that switch, it
became the American Dream. I mean, we sold out every
arena for six keen weeks. Now that's going to the

(44:33):
same arena every week. Done today, No six keen weeks
in a row. Every arena that we were in, Miami,
West Palm, Orlando, Saint Petersburg, Jacksonville, Tallahassee.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
You know, every day was packed.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
I mean, the people in Florida all in love with Dusty,
and business just skyrocketed. And I would say, for my career,
with the exception of Buddy Rogers, I never saw a
piece of talent that packed arena's week after week like

(45:20):
he did.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
Could you have a sense that Dusty would become later
in life, I guess corrupted by power.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
I never knew him that way. I never thought Dusty
was corrupted any way, Dusty was. I give you a
little story. I met Dusty in nineteen sixty seven. The
Sport and I were looking for a new tag team partner.
We went to the dressing room at Fort Worth, Texas,
and over in a corner set a kid, a blondheaded

(45:48):
kid with a pair of granny glasses down on his
nose like this, like Benjamin Franklin reading a book of poetry.
So I said to Donald, I said that kid over there,
he's a good look about himself. And Donald says, why
don't we watch him? You know, maybe we'll make him
our partner. So we went out and we watched him.
He was very green, but he had some charisma, he

(46:08):
really did, and he could he could capture the attention
of the people.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
So I'm really the one.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
Me and Donaldvan discovered Dusty, and then of course I
took him to Australia with me, and of course we
went into the Florida situation where we made the switch
and he became from the plumber's son to the American
dream and then throughout Atlanta always made nothing but money
with him. When he was the booker in the Carolinas

(46:38):
in the late eighties, I was the booker for Fritz
Vaughan Eric with World Class, and Dusty came to me
and said, Gary, we're coming to Texas Jimmy Crockett.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
And I would like to have you be part of
our company. So I said fine.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
I left World Class and went with him at Jimmy
and was never treated better in my life. I heard
a lot of guys say a lot of bad things
about Dusty. I saw a lot of guys come to
the Carolinas driving beat up cars and wore out sneakers,
and in a couple of years they were driving Mercedes.

(47:19):
They were carry Louis Vuitton, They were wearing Rolocks watches.
They were staying at Hyatt's rather than the Red roof fin.
Dusty made a lot of guys a lot of money,
and a lot of these guys showed no loyalty and
knocked him contiguously, said horrible things. But I have known

(47:40):
Dusty Rhoads since nineteen sixty seven and he's precious in
my eyes and one of my very best and dearest friends.
Cannot say anything bad about him in any manner.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Was he egotistical?

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Of course he was.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
He was Dusty Roads. Was he part happy? I don't
think so.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
You said without Dusty there would never be a Hulk
Hogan or Altimate at No, that wouldn't be or a
rock either.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Why do you say that?

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Very simple?

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Dusty Rhodes was the first flamboyant fan favorite. He was
the first guy to stand up and talk like a
heel would come across like a babyface. He invented pandemonium
and Rusty there was no pandemonium before Dusty Roads.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
So what do you remember about the plane crash in
nineteen seventy five?

Speaker 2 (48:30):
Uh, jeeuz everything.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
I guess what were you thinking as the plan was
going down.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
I didn't have time to think. I was listening to
my walkman.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
I was sitting in the back next to Bobby and
we're coming out of Miami and we called for approach
to come into peter o' knight and they say, well,
the weather's movement across the bay, maybe you know, should
land at Sarasota. So we set our course to land
at Sarasota. And as we were getting ready to go

(49:04):
into Sarasota, a guy from peter O Night call and
control guy and said, we can get you in before
the starting to come up the people all night. So right,
we got maybe.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
Five miles six miles on our approach and we got
socked in.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
I mean, we flew into a storm cloud and we
couldn't get out of it, and we'd go up and
we'd go down and we couldn't break through. And Buddy
was an instrument rated he was on a visual fighting plane,
and they were given us different vectors and we finally
broke through the clouds maybe at seven eight hundred feet
and we were high to the right, so we had

(49:43):
to circle back out over the bay to make another
approach to land. And as we started our circle, we
threw right into the ocean. A moment before we hit
Austin Iiels said pull up, we're going to hit the water.
It popped my belt and luckily as the plane hit

(50:06):
wing tip over wing tip, it drew me clear from
the plane. Wow. And there I was in Tampa Bay
at two o'clock in the morning, popped at the top
of the morning, realized that I had survived. Didn't see Buddy,
didn't see Austin. I didn't see Buddy, Buddy Coler, Bobby Shape. Wow.
All I could see was a light way off into

(50:26):
the distance. So I started swimming towards the light. Once
I got closer, I came across Austin item and Austin
was panicking pretty bad. Couldn't couldn't make it in. So
I dont just relaxedly back and I brought him to
the sea wall and didn't Buddy Cop. I heard him hollering,

(50:51):
as anyone there, as anyone there. So I went back
out and I got Buddy bobbing Buddy Cop. Brought Buddy
cold to the seawall. He was pretty messed up himself,
and then I went back out to try to find Bobby.
Couldn't find Bobby looked for a while. I don't know
how long, but I was getting weak. By then I

(51:12):
was My head was open, one hundred and eighty stitches
cut off, my nose, lost, my right eye, fractured, my sternum, flagshured, clabby,
broken wrist, broken arm, broken leg, vertebrates in the back.
And I was beginning to get weak, you know, And

(51:32):
so I thought, well it's best, you know. I tried
to get out of this place where at it was
low tied seawall was about twenty feet high right, but
five six feet above where I could reach was a ladder,
and I had Buddy and Bob and Dennis to get
down on their hands and knees. I crawled up on

(51:55):
their back, crawled up the ladder, went to a house,
kicked over in told you know, we have horrible.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Problems here, so they called the police.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Thank god. I went back down to the seat to
the dock and dropped a boat over. There was a
big poat hag, you know. I hit the button and
felt one hand fell down for Buddy and Austin to
get in.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
And then I went and sat under a tree and
waited for the antlans to come out.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
That's a crazy story. How'd you wind up back in Georgia?

Speaker 2 (52:32):
Well, I was to go to Oklahoma for Bill Wats
because the time I spent in Florida with Bill, I
was his assistant. And Bill wanted me to come to
to Oklahoma. And Jack Briscoe approached me. He owned a
part of Atlanta, and he asked me what my plans were,

(52:56):
and I told him that I was planning on going
to to Oklahoma for Bill Watson to become his booker.
And Jack said, well, would you be interested in being
the booker in Atlanta? And I said, I'd like to
talk to you guys about it. So I said, well,
Jim's very excited and he wants you to come and
take over the book. You and him to good things

(53:18):
together at Austra. He gels comfortable, and Jerry Jarge's no
longer there, and we really need to resupply talent because
Jerry brought in the Tennessee crowded.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
This just didn't work in George, all right.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
So that's why I became the booker in Atlanta nineteen seventy.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Fine, were you apprehensive about Tom Vanessa?

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Not at all? Not at all, not at all.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
Well, what are some of your key movises booker.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
I think my probably the best move I made was
I put Bob Barton and Dicky Slater together against Bob
Armstrong and Robert Ford. I put Don Jordine this part
of Kids Wrestling number two. I put Abduluh the Butcher
against Mark Lawn. And when you have that kind of package,

(54:07):
how are you going to miss? Did? I had Bill
Watts coming in, I had Dusty Rhodes coming in. I
had Jack Priscoe coming in. I had Jerry Frisco. I
had guys from New York like Dean Ho. I had
Dominick Denucci. I had Professor Tanaka. I had a lot
of guys. I had good connections with wrestlers. And because

(54:28):
I wasn't your typical booker, I wasn't a Bill Watson,
wasn't an Oleanderson, I wasn't a George Scott. I wasn't a.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
Dominary type guy.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
I would rather get you to do things my way
because you trusted me and my vision, rather than do
it because you were afraid that I would fuck you
on the bookies or I'd fire you. I wanted them
to trust me that I had the right idea. So
that was a little different than most bookers. I wasn't

(54:59):
you're really I'll see you over dominated type guy.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Why did you end up leaving Georgia once again? What
happened there?

Speaker 2 (55:07):
Well, you know I had a way about me that
I could get fired. I was a guy that if
I had something in my mind that I wanted to do,
and as long as the crowds stayed good, then I
would continue what I wanted to do.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
And even when you told me no, I would continue
to do what I wanted to do.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
It. It got to the point that Jim Burnett had
had enough and he said, Gary, you know he'd done
a great job. But Fred Word can't stand you. Buddy
Fuller can't stand you, and Eddie Graham can't stand you.
And I have to go with my partners, and they
think you should leave, and I do too. So I said,

(55:53):
that's okay, man, because I had a good run, and
I never held it against Jim.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
Jim was a friend of mine till the day died.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
You wound up working for Fritz again.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
I believe right. I left when I left Georgia, I
went back to Texas and took the book from Red Dustin.
Red Vesting was the booker when I came in and
I took the booking job with Fritz and I was
there from seventy six until eighty two.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Is it true you were responsible for training some of
them on art boys?

Speaker 3 (56:30):
I trained all of them, well, not all of I
trained David, Kevin and Carrie.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Did you think that they would be as big as
they became?

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (56:38):
Of course I was the one that pushed them.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
I was gonna ask you. Out of all the boys,
we always hear that David was probably the best.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Well, I can't say that. I think all of them
were unique in their own way. Now, Kevin was the first, right,
and Kevin was one of the most handsome, well received
guys that I ever so close to Ricky martinaw, I
mean it was just to look at him, I mean,
and he was magnificent. David was probably the best technical

(57:12):
wrestler of the three, and then Carrie had something else.
I mean, they all three were distinctively different. Where Kevin
was the high flyer, handsome, looked like a guy that
just walked off a movie set, David was this long, tall,
gangly Texas kid that interviewed like his father and showed

(57:37):
great anger in his matches and was really, really, really
a good mechanic in the ring. And then Carrie. He
had a little bit of Kevin, he had a little
bit of David, but Carrie was the typical And I
don't mean I loved him to death, I mean no disrespect,
but he was a typical dumb jock, you know the

(58:01):
bond and what you saw was what he was.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
He was just a fabulous kid. They all three were
completely different.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
Is it true that Fritz didn't want to push them
as hard as you wanted to push.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
Yeah, because you know, in those days, if you look
back and you look at a kid like Greg Ganya,
you look at a guy like my grand All these
guys were very talented guys, but because their father was
the promoter, rustlers didn't want to rustle a promoter's kid
and put his kid over. So actually, a lot of

(58:32):
people say, well, being Fritz's kid made him know. It
was a detriment because a lot of guys did not
want to come and put over Fritz's boys. They didn't
mind coming in and working with him, but they didn't
want to come in and put his kids over. And
Fritz was afraid that they wouldn't be received as well

(58:55):
as they were. But I was, like I said, I
was always stubborn and heart headed, and you know, I'm
sure he wanted to pushed as hard as I did.
But by me being the one that says, hey, we
got to do this and constantly, it was easier for
him to say, well, Gary wants it too. But yeah,
I would say I was the guy that was really

(59:17):
the one instrumental in manipulating those boys and getting them started.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
I'd picked the right guys to bring in.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
I'm going to ask you that next. Okay, could we
stop anyway? Could back to the arcs? Do you feel
that Fritz gets a band rap in regards to the
way he pushed his voice?

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Yeah, I tell you those story. I met the Van
Eric Boyce in nineteen sixty six. Kevin was probably I'm
thinking nine, David was probably eight, Carrie was probably six.
So I knew these boys their whole life, and they
used to tell me at the dress room. I've said
this before, so I'll say it again. I was uncle

(59:57):
Gary to the boys. They had no uncle or no ants,
so they asked their father could we call Gary uncle Gary?
So I knew these kids since they were little and
It wasn't Fritz that wanted them to be wrestlers, or
Fritz would have been very happy with David playing basketball,

(01:00:17):
because David was it better than average basketball six foot ten.
Was very hopeful that he would have a career in
the NBA. Kevin was an excellent running back at North Texas,
had bad knees, Hopefully he would have played in the NFL.
Carrie was going to the Olympics in nineteen eighty for
the shot for the discus, and Fritz was preparing these

(01:00:41):
kids for other things. He didn't demand that they were wrestlers.
He didn't push them in to be Russell's. They used
to tell me when they were little boys, Uncle Gary,
when we get big, we're going to wrestle you, aren't
We and Carrie and the boys they would play games
with me and addressment because I was closer to the age.
I was very young at the time too, and we

(01:01:03):
always had a very special relationship. But for someone to
say that Fritz pushed them into it, he didn't. They
wanted it from They wanted to be wrestlers more than
anything else.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Talk about training them.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Who picked it up the easiest, I would say, mechanically,
I would say David for just the pure charisma Kevin
and then Carrie. You know, he had the benefit of

(01:01:39):
following his brothers, so he had high expectations. Everyone really
thought that this kid because the way he looked at
what the brothers had done before him, and Carrie was
good enough in his very first match that the people
fell in love with him. I mean, it was a

(01:01:59):
love affair between the Van Ericson and the Texas fans.
But you got to take into consideration. They had people
like Don Jardine, the spoiler. They had killer Tim Brooks,
they had Gino or Nandez, they had maniac mark Hood,
they had killer von Krup, they had Tony Charles, they
had less Darting.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
So they had a lot of guys that taught them
how to have a match, Bruiser proty.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
So I mean we had a lie surrounded them with
a great deal of talent and put them with guys
that would go out and teach them how not to work,
but how to have a match, to have a beginning, the.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Middle, at an end. They all caught on very well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
And one thing I'm proudsed of all the boys, Kevin
David carry not so much Mike or Chris because I
wasn't really there when they started. But David Carrey and
Kevin they were all liked by the rustlers.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
They were very respectful. They never had I'm a superstar.
They were just one of the boys.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
I never heard them ever say well, my dad's the promoter,
I want to do this, and that never came out
of their mouth. They were good, down to earth kids,
and if they had have been any different, I would
have kicked the ass.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
I got lots of questions about the von ARX. How
critical was it to bring the right guys to work
with the von Ars early on?

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Well, as I had said earlier, a lot of guys
didn't want to come and work with promoted son. I
remember in Florida. I had no problem working with Mike
van Eric. I mean, excuse me, Mike Graham in singles
or technics. You know, I thought he was an excellent worker.
He wasn't the biggest guy in the world, but we
took advantage of that and used his size as an

(01:03:46):
advantage to make him, you know, overcome great odds, and
I think Mike did a great job. Greg Ganya was
another kid that I thought had a lot of entering
talent didn't have the most charisma in the world. And
when you follow like a Veran Gania or an Eddie
Graham or at Fritz van Eric it's not easy to

(01:04:08):
you know. I mean, look how many Rustlers kids fail
because they can't live up to their father. But I
believe the selection of people that I brought for them
to Russell and I believe because they were nice, genuinely
nice kids. I think that had more than anything else

(01:04:28):
to do with it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Do you think David would have been a successful champion?

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
Yeah, David could have been world chair.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
I mean he was going to be Worlds.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Champ, right, yeah, I guess what do you think made
the termstory so hot?

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Back then?

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
The boys?

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
The three young boys you got to remember in that
day and age until Von Erics broke in, Really you
had to be in your mid or late thirties to
be a main eventor I mean, young guys didn't really
get an opportunity. Ricky Flair was a young guy that
got an opportunity. And the reason I pushed of on
Eeric Boys because I was eighteen when I started it.

(01:05:04):
Billy Giles afforded me an opportunity, you know, to work
on top at a very young age.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
So I was I thought, well, if I did it,
why can't they do it?

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
And I believe the youth factor, and we changed the
whole demographics of who was watching. I mean, I had
three good looking young boys, Devonix, I had gino Ornandez
so I had five or six guys that were all
under twenty two or twenty three, and we just started
drawing kids and you know, a different audience altogether.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Right, How did the evolution about World Class TV come out?

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
Mickey Grant was with Continental Productions and he came up
with the concept of a new format to present wrestling.
Were before, as you realize, it was a small studio
with maybe a couple hundred people at most two cameras,
and Micky wanted to do it live from the sportatorium

(01:06:05):
with six cameras, full sound, additional lighting, microphones in the
ring and the turn buckle in the audience, using music,
doing personality profiles, which would mean take a guy like
a Von Eriker, Great Kabuki or Michael Hayes and present

(01:06:25):
them outside of wrestling, what they do in their spare time,
A little profile of what is this guy all about?
Who is he other than the guy we watch in
the ring. So Micky brought a lot to wrestling that
had never been used, and a lot of promoters in
Fritz and I had a lot of discussions and a
lot of heated discussions about the personality profiles. He was

(01:06:50):
very He couldn't understand the concept. Why would a camera
be there if he's at the gym, or why would
a camera be there if he's at a restaurant, or
why would it be a camera there if he was
out driving in a car. But he didn't understand that
that was just a new way of presenting talent. Like

(01:07:11):
Nicky Grant introduced close ups where he would get the
whole face in the camera and it brought out It
brought the guy closer to the fans. I mean, it's
for the first time you take a guy and you
fill the whole screen up with his face, right, you know.
And when you took a guy into the carner where
we had microphones and you and Texas we hit or

(01:07:34):
kicked art. It was very stiff. That's what we worked,
really really stiff. A lot of guys wouldn't come to Texas.
A lot of people they wouldn't come because they get
beat up and they would say, you know, we don't
want to do this right and they would leave. But
I think it was the whole concept, Mickey's format, all
the cameras, all the sounds, personality profiles through music, but

(01:07:55):
most of all the young talent that we presented on
the TV.

Speaker 3 (01:07:58):
And I really think that World Class changed the face
of wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Do you remember a night or match that was at
turning point in taking things to a new level.

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
There was many things, but I would say one thing that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Probably the thing that is most remembered is I brought
the free Birds into Texas as good guys with the
plan of switching them to Russell levon Erics, and we
set up this scenario where Michael Hayes was going to
be the special referee at the Reunion Arena on Christmas

(01:08:34):
Night against Carrie and Ricky Flair. And I had used
different referees troubles juting referees and the von Ers would
always get screwed.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
But I did a thing where the people voted for
who would be the referee and.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
They chose Michael Hayes, and Michael Hayes got into an
argument with Carrie, shoved Carrie Carrie shoved him back and
Michael went to leave the cage. And as Michael went
to leave the cage, Carrie went to tell him, no, no,
it's okay. Ricky Flair hit him in the carry in
the knee with the back and drove Michael carry into

(01:09:15):
Michael and Michael out through the door. And as that happened,
Carrie's hanging through the ropes and Kerry Guardy slams the
door on Carrie. He falls back. Ricky cogs in one
two three and the feud began. It was great stuff
on Erics against the Freeburns, and they had a run.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
For well over a year. I'll talk about that feud
coming up. I got some other stuff I wanted to
ask you about before. How did the Great Kabooki come about?

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
I was traveled through Asia quite a bit with Jim Bardad.
When I was in Australia. Each year we would do
a tour of Singapore, Colin Lankoor, Jacarta, Bally, Macau and
Hong Kong, and we flew exclusively on Cathay Pacific. And
I saw a picture, a pictorial of a kabuki dancer

(01:10:09):
in a long red wig and a devil's mask and
a skirt and numb chunks. And I was always a
big fan of Bruce Leees and Sonny Chieba. I really
liked the martial arts and always said, if I could
find a guy that could do the martial arts and
also do catches ketch can wrestling, it'd be another way.

Speaker 3 (01:10:33):
To present a Japanese guy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
Because you got to remember, at the time of the kabuki,
it used to be to be Japanese was enough. After
the war, you know, they hated Japanese guy. They'd drilled
the salt and they would do the ball and they
would do the Pearl Harbor attack. But that era was over.
We were all at Hondas. We were walking around with walkmans,

(01:10:57):
we had celcle watches. I mean, the Animal City to
Japan's gone. But I knew if I could find a
Japanese guy that could do the martial arts and do
the wrestling and present him as a kobuki with the
mystery of the kabuki and the violence of the samurai,

(01:11:19):
that I would have a way to present a guy
that the people would take time to look at rather
than just say, well he's from the land of the Rises.

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
Here's a Japanese guy. He was supposed to hate him.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
I developed Kabuki as not so much as a Japanese guy.
I presented him as an attraction, and he got over. Unbelievable,
He really really got over a big time. Well was
he like outside the right, very humble, very nice guy,
had been around for twelve thirteen years, had wrestled his

(01:11:53):
takachia and wrestled his mirror. Had basically been your middle
of the car and get over guy. Had really had
very little success, not because of the lack of ability,
but just because the thing with the Japanese and Americans,
you know, it wasn't that hatred was gone. It was
like the Germans at one time.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
If you were Hansman Eric or Fritz round Eric, you know,
you walk around, you give this ag.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
Oh no, you're a bad guy.

Speaker 3 (01:12:22):
But though that was all over.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
By then, and I just needed to find a new
way to present an Asian guy. And when I saw
the pictorial on Cathay Pacific, I said, that's the way
to do it now. It took me a long time
to find the guy that I wanted to do it with,
maybe three or four years. Memories of the matches without
Jimmy value Kuki. Oh, the easiest money I ever made.

(01:12:46):
That was the greatest time I ever had in my life.
Seven eight minutes of pandemonium every night. It was the
greatest time. Had nothing but a good time. Loved Jimmy
value to death. Each Chicago boy to sell him and I.
We really enjoyed each other, and the Kabuki and him.
I mean, they had some of the greatest matches in
the whole world.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
I guess with the von Arts, you know, they're notorious
for their drug problems and stuff like that. When did
you notice that they kind of had a problem, you.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
Know, I mean, I think that's overblown.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
I mean, if we really stop and think, how did
they draw so much money in so many places for
so long if all they were were drugs? Did they
have problems, Yes, but that was the culture. That was
the culture.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
I mean, they weren't the only ones. They Their drug problems.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
Were prescription medication, and at that time, no one looked
at prescription.

Speaker 3 (01:13:50):
Medication as something harmful.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
It was good.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
If you couldn't sleep, the doctor would give you something
to go to sleep.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
If you wanted to lose weight, doctor would give you
something for you to lose weight. So when we say
drug abuse, let's say not street drugs.

Speaker 3 (01:14:11):
I'm not saying they didn't do, but I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
Saying their major problem was prescription medication and they didn't
look at it as as a drug.

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
I know Fritz didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
I didn't, and I would tell him on multiple occasions
we got a problem here.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
I was going to ask you, yeah, sure I did.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
Response he was in denial. It's only it's only a prescription.
The doctor gave it to him, right, right, I said, Fritz,
this is a problem here. I don't care if it's
a street drug or if it's a pharmaceutical. When you're abusing,
you're abusing, and it's easy to do. I mean my

(01:14:50):
habit my whole life. I'll be right up front with you.
I smoked marijuana. You can't smoke marijuana just anywhere. If
I was doing pills, I could say coupill anywhere, right.
If I was doing coke, I could go do coke anywhere, right.
If I was doing alcohol, I could do alcohol anywhere.
My preferred drug choice was marijuana, so you had to

(01:15:11):
go Hi. You couldn't do marijuana anywhere, right. So it
was easier to do other drugs than it was the
one I did. I didn't care for bills, I didn't
care for co didn't care for alcohol. But I've always
enjoyed marijuana, you know what I mean. I could go
back to my place, kick back, have smoke, listen to

(01:15:31):
some music, watch TV, troubles of the World go away,
and it's not an addicting drug. So when we talk
about drugs abuse, I mean there's multiple drugs, you know.
I mean there's street drugs, and there's pharaceutical drugs, and
there's you know, benign drugs. And they were they got
involved in prescription medication and it did them great harm.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
Do you think it eventually hurt the promotion as well
when they started showing the towns and stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
I never saw him, no show when I was there.
I think what hurt the promotion over a period of
time were the successions of deaths. Chris Adams getting sent
to prison for I Had Button a pilot on American Airlines,
Mike van Eric killing himself, David accidentally Overdee, and Gino

(01:16:27):
Hernandez cocaine overdose.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
I think that did a repula born.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
I think it got to a point where we were
presented as family entertainment, a Christian type situation with the
von Erics portrayed, and I think the people said, hey,
you're not what you say you are, and we don't
want our kids watching.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
And I think that's right. Which was the thing that
hurt more than anything else?

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
Which death do you think hit him?

Speaker 3 (01:16:57):
Artist friends, his first son Jack, when Jack died, right, boy?

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
I don't think he ever got over that one.

Speaker 1 (01:17:04):
That was when he was legguded, I believe. Yeah, when
Fritz started pushing Mike and later Chris, did you ever
try to talk him out of it?

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
Well, not really, because you know it would do no good,
But I tried to present day when I was involved
with him in a way that was acceptable. I don't
think anyone ever took Mike or Chris real that they
were going to be what the kids were.

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
But I think by that time Fritz he just he
thought any Vuneric would draw money and they wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
How great do you think carry could have been?

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
You know, there's a lot of bad stories on Carrie,
but if you watched twenty four to seven, the kid
was excellent. He was excellent. I mean people say, you
know he was a drug that he didn't know how
to work, that he was lazy all of that. If
you watch him in his matches with mister Perfect, do

(01:18:10):
you watching with Ricky Flair and watching with the free
Birds and watching with the Great Kobuki? He was extremely good.
He was very very good.

Speaker 1 (01:18:22):
Did you ever go out there managing against the Bunnarks
where you thought maybe they're in a position where they
could end up hurting themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):
Or their opponents at all? No, When I was the
matchmaker and TV producer, my rule was if you come high,
you don't work. Right. I'm not saying they never showed
up high, but when I was the booker, that was
not allowed, and they knew it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
If Uncle Gary saw him.

Speaker 2 (01:18:47):
High, they knew they were going home that night.

Speaker 4 (01:18:49):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
What are you memories about Geno Nanas Gina was like
a son of mine.

Speaker 3 (01:18:55):
Loved him to death. I know him since he was
twelve years old. Used to work could.

Speaker 2 (01:19:00):
Paul Bush's office. Was great talent, was a Targian soul.
The demons got him, but he was a great kid,
a very very nice boy, but just had some real
bad demons inside.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
Do you think he odd or do you think it
was a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
Said that there's always stories you don't I know you
don't have a tremendous cocaine happen.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
I mean tremendous, I guess with the von Irex also
will mean a little bit. You wound up leaving I
guess for a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Why was that?

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
Before you went back?

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
I had a deal with all promoters that I worked
for that when I would come in and take the
book whatever the average was for each individual town. Just
to make it very simple, if you were average in
a thousand dollars in your town and I brought it

(01:19:58):
up to two thousand, and I got an extra hundred.
If I brought it to three thousand, I got another hundred.
Every thousand I got you above your average, I got
a hundred. And that deal worked for a long time,
really really well. But once the Van Eeric boys got
involved and we moved into bigger buildings. I mean I

(01:20:21):
was doing fifty grand, sixty grand, one hundred grand when
I came to Dallas, just to use Dallas as example,
and took over as the booker and matchmaker. Dallas was
averaging thirty eight one hundred dollars a show. My last
show in a reunion arena. Ricky Flair and Kerrie von Eeric.

(01:20:43):
I did one hundred and eight thousand, so imagine how
much they owed me right, And they didn't want to
pay And I told them, you know that's not my deal.

Speaker 3 (01:20:54):
You either pay me or I'm out of here.

Speaker 2 (01:20:57):
Christmas week I did a quarter of a million dollars
in Dallas for Worris, san Antonio, Carpus, Christi and Amole.
And I didn't like my PAYO and Fritz felt that
the deal had been shot with the free Birds and
the vonn Erics. Why do I need Gary? So he

(01:21:17):
fucked me on the PO So I left.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
We went to work for I guess only for a
little bit in Georgia.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
I was going in and out for Jim Barnett. Only
was the book. It was a great kabuki. But I
had always had an ongoing relationship with Jim Barnett, I
mean ever since nineteen sixty three or sixty four, when
I first met him in Detroit. I worked for him
continuously in Australia and in Georgia and in Florida. I

(01:21:46):
was always considered one of and was proud to be
considered one of Jim Burnett's boys.

Speaker 1 (01:21:52):
How'd you wind up going back to Texas. How'd you reconcile? Friends?

Speaker 3 (01:21:56):
Well, I was in the Carolinas and.

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
I don't remember exactly who called me, but I think
it was Broncho Leo Bench and he asked if I
would come to the memorial show for when Carrie Russell
Ricky Flair. And at that show, Fritz approached me and

(01:22:24):
you know, how you doing, what's going on? How's the family?
And he said, you're thinking about coming back anytime soon?
And I said that really, man, I'm really happy in
the Carolinas. And he told me, said I really don't
trust Kim Mantel because Kim Mantel was made the booker,
was the booker.

Speaker 3 (01:22:41):
He said he really didn't trust him, and he didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
Really feel that Kim.

Speaker 1 (01:22:46):
As my computer got ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
I really didn't feel kid, you know, was someone that
he wanted to keep long term and would I be
interested in? And I told him no, Fritz, you know,
I'm really happy I have no. I always looked at
being a booker as a day job and then a
wrestler as a night job, and I was very happy
without a day job. I mean, I was here in

(01:23:08):
the Carolinas with the Crocketts and the great Kopookia. I
had Mark Lewin and I had Kevin Sullivan with me.
I had Donker Noodle and I had ivn co Off
in Tikita. I mean, I had a good little group
of guys and my only responsibility was to look after
them and take care of their business and make their
interviews and figure out what they're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:23:30):
For the finish.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
So it was a beautiful job, and I really didn't
want to go back and take that.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
Day job, as I used to call it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:39):
So a few months went by and he called me
and he said, I'd like you to come back when
you finish up in carolinecause he knew I would leave Texas.
I'd be gone seventeen eighteen months, and then I would
always come back because my wife was a Texan and
my two boys were born in Texas, and she really
wanted to be home.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
And I wasn't the.

Speaker 2 (01:23:59):
Type of guy that leave my family at home, and
I would go on the road when I traveled from
territory to territory, I would.

Speaker 3 (01:24:05):
Take my family with me.

Speaker 2 (01:24:08):
So my wife she wanted to go home, and my
boys they started of wanted to go home too, And
so when he called, he said, I got a kid here,
Chris Adams. He's really very, very popular, but I want
to switch him and make him a bad guy to Russell,
Kevin and carry.

Speaker 3 (01:24:25):
Would you mind coming in and helping me switch him back?

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
And sorry to help with.

Speaker 2 (01:24:32):
The finishes and the programming, and you know, you answer
to me, you don't have to answer to Kim Mantell.
Which I never had a problem with Kenny, you know.
And I didn't mind. I mean, I didn't have sar
grapes or anything. It wasn't his fault that they hired
him after I was let go or I quit out
of you want to look at My problem was with

(01:24:53):
Fritz and the payoff, and he didn't live up to
our agreement.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
So I really had no problems with Kenny. So I
agreed to the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
I came back and I spent a few days with
Chris Adams, and I let him know, you know, how
I operate and how I felt about things, and if
he was interested in him and I would get together,
which we did, and he had one hell of her run.

Speaker 3 (01:25:16):
He did great business there.

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
What are your members of the program between you Chris
and Kevin.

Speaker 2 (01:25:21):
Oh, it was probably one of the stiffest programs, ever,
because Chris was sort of stiff to it. Kevin, I mean,
he would come at you with everything he had. I
mean I never got beat up so bad as I
did with those kids. The only one person that ever
beat me like that was Dusty Rodes and Persia Protein.
But I remember they had just great matches. I mean,

(01:25:44):
I remember the Cotton.

Speaker 3 (01:25:45):
Bowl where, really I guess it was the thing that
really put us.

Speaker 2 (01:25:50):
Over the top. We were in the cotton Bowl and
Kevin and Chris, and the angle was to be if
Chris would fire me and everything would be okay, and
van Erics and Chris would be back together and all
things would be forgotten.

Speaker 3 (01:26:07):
So we had to imagine.

Speaker 2 (01:26:09):
As the story goes, Kevin got to one, two three,
he got on the house Mike, and he told Chris,
if you get rid of Gary Hart and will forget
put all this miners, we'll go back and we'll be friends.
And as Kevin turned to leave the ring, Chris picked
up a wooden chair and he hit Kevin in the

(01:26:31):
back potato him. Potatoes a word when you hit somebody
really hid and it opened up the back of his skull.
I think he had something like twenty five thirty stitches
bled puously. The world class cameras was right there. They
pulled the ambulance in and loaded him up in the
ambulance and took him to Baylor Hospital. Was on all

(01:26:54):
the news, Channel four, Channel five, General eleven, all the networks,
and people flooded the switchboards at Baylor. It was all
in the headlines of the newspaper. You know, another von
Eeric tragedy, you know. And Chris was the one responsible
for it, so that really escalated it. And then when

(01:27:15):
we got all we could get from Chris and Kevin,
then we brought Gino back in, and then Gino and
Chris against Carrie and Kevin, and we had a good
long run with that ended up a year later at
the Cotton Bowl where I had more kalo and I

(01:27:35):
was managing Mark alone against the great Kabooki of all
things right, and Gino and Chris against the von Eris
and the losers get their head shape. So I mean
it was like a two year program that did tremendous money.
I mean it did very, very very houses were huge, yeah,

(01:27:57):
they were. I would take the free birds and Chris
and Gino would have been only second to the free Birds.
I mean they did tremendous business memories of a lot
of working with the free Birds.

Speaker 3 (01:28:10):
I loved the Birds, Michael and Terry.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
I met Buddy Roberts I had known from before as
part of the Hollywood Blonds, and had nothing but good
times with him. They were very cooperative, very enthusiastic about everything.
They were great guys. Still have good relationships with Michael
and Buddy.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
I was going to ask you, are you surprised that
Michael is one of Vince's top guys right now?

Speaker 2 (01:28:34):
No, I don't. I don't think so. I think Michael,
I don't know, you know, I mean it's hard to say.
Is this guy capable of that guy Cable? I think
he's a good match, good fit for that organization, you know.
I mean Michael had quite a career. You know. It
was a great interview. I had some real original ideas

(01:28:54):
I think the Freebirds were. I mean, come on, that
was very original. So Michael, I mean, he doesn't get
as much credit as he should get, but I think
I think he's a capable guy.

Speaker 1 (01:29:08):
What about working with Abby? What do you remembers working
with all of them?

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
See I know Abdullah film Detroit, I first met him
in sixty three or sixty four. I had nothing but
good times with Abby. The only thing I had problems
with Abby. Abby hated to lose, right, and you know
someone's got to lose, someone's got to win.

Speaker 3 (01:29:29):
Abby was very bad at losing. He didn't like to lose.

Speaker 2 (01:29:33):
But I always had a good time with Abdul I mean,
I wasn't the type of guy that would bring Abdulai
in on a weekly basis, because.

Speaker 1 (01:29:41):
How much right of that team you get?

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
But I thought he was much like the Sheik, much
like George General Steele or even Andre the Giant. You know,
our critician ka short term to tremendous business, and then
before he got sick of it, let him go away
and absence make the heart grow fonder. And then when

(01:30:06):
the time is right, you find the right opponent, you
bring him back and he's.

Speaker 3 (01:30:10):
Good for another little run.

Speaker 2 (01:30:12):
But I've known Abby most of my wrestling career, always
had tremendous fun with him.

Speaker 1 (01:30:19):
Like him a lot as a booker. Howage to persuade
Habby to do the right thing for business?

Speaker 2 (01:30:23):
I tricked him.

Speaker 3 (01:30:24):
I would trick him, might put him in a two
out of three fall match.

Speaker 2 (01:30:28):
That was really a one fall match and having to
lose the first ball and then he would realize, oh,
it's one again.

Speaker 3 (01:30:36):
And I got him several times.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
Like that, That's great.

Speaker 1 (01:30:39):
You got to be clever, all right. What about working
with Bruis of Birdie? What was it like working with
Frank Bruiser? Uh nineteen.

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):
Seventy six or seven called me. I believe he was
in Florida or New Kark looking for an opportunity in Texas.
And I told him, right at that time, I didn't
have a spot that he would be interested in. Only
had things that would not be good for him, but

(01:31:12):
for him to call me back in six months, which
he did, and I still didn't have an opening spot.
I told him to call me back in three months,
and I told him, I'm not, you know, fucking you off.
It's just really I don't have something that you would
be happy with. But as soon as I do, you
know you, I'll bring you in. So he sent me

(01:31:34):
photos of himself and I really liked his look. He
was tremendously green at the time. And he called me
about three months later and I said, yeah, I got
a spot for you, come on in. And when I
saw him physically for the first time. I was studying

(01:31:55):
my office and he comes through the door. He filled
up the whole door. At the time, it was three
twenty pounds. Calking guy green as Grass didn't trust anyone
much like DoD Jerdy didn't trust you because he had
been abused by just about every promoter. Oh we're going
to do this and that for you, you know, and
then you know, use him to get someone else over,

(01:32:18):
use him as a tag team partner, ask him, you know,
to do bumps when he's working with a guy half
his side, right, and him and I hit it off,
I think because I was really honest with him and
didn't bring him in until I could really use him.
I think, you know, I gained his trust and over

(01:32:39):
the years, like I had no problems with DoD Jerdy,
and I had no problems with him, to which I
had no problems with, had no problems with.

Speaker 3 (01:32:47):
Curtis, I can't had no problems with Mark Lewin.

Speaker 2 (01:32:50):
I mean, I worked with a lot of guys with
very very difficult reputations, and I never had problems with
him because I used him to the best of their ability.
I didn't ask them to do things to help others.
I asked them to help draw money, and Bruiser became
a tremendous friend and started with me then and was

(01:33:13):
with me until he died. I mean he would. When
I was into Carolinas and him and stan Answer were coming,
he called me and asked, Gary, would you represent me?
Which I said yes. When I was in Atlanta, right
before he died, I had talked to him about coming
to Atlanta. He said, would you represent me? I said yes,

(01:33:33):
I would, So him and I were very close. I
never had a problem with him at all.

Speaker 1 (01:33:38):
I know a lot of guys like about a heating
and Unblackago and both said in regards to Brodie that
he would be you'd be bad for business sometimes. What
are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (01:33:46):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:33:47):
I never saw him that way. If you would try to.

Speaker 2 (01:33:51):
Take bruise of Brodie and make someone else look good
at his expense or not pay him what he had coming, Yeah,
But Bobby Heenan and Nick Bonk would go, we're no different.
You shot Bobby on the payoff. What's he going to do?
You misuse Bobby?

Speaker 3 (01:34:12):
What's he going to do you misuse Nick Backwell, it's
easy to point the finger at other people.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
But I don't know very many big name wrestlers that
you can fuck over and they come back with a
smile on her face.

Speaker 5 (01:34:24):
The difference with Bruiser Brody, he would beat the shit
out of your Bobby may call you an asshole and
go away and knock you to everyone else, and Nick
would probably do the same, where Bruise of Brody would
get right at your face and point you.

Speaker 3 (01:34:40):
That was the difference. Brody was a man's man.

Speaker 2 (01:34:45):
If you treated Brody with respect, he showed you nothing
but respect and return.

Speaker 3 (01:34:50):
Could we turn that off?

Speaker 1 (01:34:52):
Oh yeah, I hate.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
M hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:35:04):
Could you send me a copy of this when you
get it? Definitely, that's very important to me.

Speaker 1 (01:35:11):
What are some of your highlights let's stick out in
your mind or stand out moments from world class James
of wrestling?

Speaker 2 (01:35:17):
Many many? I think the first Texas Stadium show with
King Kong, Bundy and Fritz Vaughan, Eric Fritz's retirement match
that night, Terry Van, Eric Russell, Harding, Grace h David
and UH and Kevin Russell, the Great Kobookie and UH
and the Magic Dragon. I think the Night of Christmas

(01:35:46):
Night when the Free Birds that was probably the greatest
angle I was ever involved in, not personally but laying
it out, positioning people to uh to do the angle.
I think that was a very very special thing. I
think the first time the Kabuki Blue Bruiser Brody Green

(01:36:06):
probably was something.

Speaker 3 (01:36:09):
That would everyone would remember. I think probably.

Speaker 2 (01:36:14):
My haircut match in Texas Stadium, the One Man Gang
against Carrie von Eric.

Speaker 3 (01:36:21):
Carrie lost, Fritz would retire, never come around.

Speaker 2 (01:36:24):
Again, and the Moon lost. I would get my head shaved.
I think that was a very special thing. I think
the Cotton Bow with Kevin and Chris the first time,
probably Kevin and Cherry against Gino and Chris at the
Cotton Bow, I mean the free birds coming in.

Speaker 3 (01:36:47):
I think all of those things were highlights in.

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):
The world class.

Speaker 1 (01:36:50):
There's the true Wody Roberts. I think Jack Figure was
honestly coming to dress. Remember where they closed all the
different towns and he just carries is closing a bag
or something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:37:00):
Buddy was different. Buddy was Buddy was different.

Speaker 2 (01:37:04):
But I don't remember anything like I really paid no
attention how you brought your boths right.

Speaker 1 (01:37:10):
And then we've heard stories about Kevin with Bladeeshaw with
Cat and stuff like that. Do I know with Kevin
Butericon there was a cat in one of those cuss
rooms and he took a bladesall and chucked out the cat.

Speaker 3 (01:37:21):
Kevin would not do that. No, there are a lot
of stories but that that that would not be true.

Speaker 1 (01:37:27):
Was anybody well today boy from New York ever attempt
to bring up there?

Speaker 2 (01:37:32):
It was not a New York type guy. You know.
Like I said, I I have nothing but respect for
Bobby Heating. I think you know he was one of
the greatest mouthpieces in rustling. I think he was very entertaining.
But Bobby managed guys for the office. It wasn't me.
My thing was I managed to I wanted to manage.

(01:37:53):
I left when I wanted to leave. I took my
talent with me when I left. And I wasn't type
of guy that New York would be interested in. They
wanted more of a Loue Albato, a Bobby Heena resident
manager more or less, and I was never interested in that.

(01:38:13):
I wanted to select the guys I managed. I wanted
to present them the way I wanted to present it.
I wanted to have the ability when a promoter didn't
pay us the way we deserved to be paid, that
the talent knew that Gary was with them. Gary wasn't

(01:38:34):
with the office. Even though Gary maybe the booker, he
was still with them. And by not being that type
have that type of connection as the resident manager, it
allowed me the opportunity to say, Hey, why don't we
go to Carolinas, Why don't we leave and go to Georgia.
Why don't we leave and go to Australia. Won't we

(01:38:57):
leave and go to Florida? So a promoter could have
me in that like he was never secure that Gary's
here because he knew that if Gary wasn't pleased with
the way he was being used or presented or paid,
Gary would leave. Gary's talent knew that if they were

(01:39:20):
being mistreated or misused, Gary would go to the office,
and if Gary couldn't solve that problem, Gary would come
to them and say, let's go someplace else. So I
would travel with my talent. I wasn't a resident manager
for a territory, and I think that's one of the

(01:39:42):
reasons I was never an attractive option for in New York.
And I was very difficult, and I admit it.

Speaker 3 (01:39:49):
If I didn't get my way.

Speaker 2 (01:39:51):
There was hell to pay, and I admit it and
I know it. But that's what helped me be successful
because I always told promoters look at my track record.
You know, I had a magnificent track record. I never
felt any place I was ever at. Once I went
to Texas and got with the Spoiler, I had nothing

(01:40:14):
but success for the rest of my career in developing
and creating guys.

Speaker 1 (01:40:20):
So I was a little different than most managers. How'd
you wind up in WCW in Atlanta the last time?
The last time?

Speaker 2 (01:40:28):
Okay, I had left World Class in eighty eight. I
believe al Parez and I we left. I was disappointed.
Fritz brought Ken Mantel back as one of the promoters.

Speaker 1 (01:40:45):
Is there a lot of friction between you and Ken?

Speaker 2 (01:40:46):
Not really, not really, I don't. I don't know how
he actually felt about me. But I never had any
problems with Ken. I mean, I didn't agree with a
lot of stuff he did. I didn't think he was
very I thought, you know, as far as taking a
list of names, good guys and bad guys and matching
them up, you know he could do that. Was he

(01:41:08):
a matchmaker like a Bill Wats or Gary Harder and
Dusty Gilds or in Obamas. No, he wasn't in our league.
Could he develop and create talent? Could he find a
guy and developing creating and mak him a maine of it?
Or no, I don't think he could do that. But
could he take the free Birds and the von Ericks
and put him in matches and draw money out? Because

(01:41:30):
the gimmick was already shot. The angel was off and running,
so he was successful, but Fritz brought him back in
and wanted him to do some promotion.

Speaker 3 (01:41:41):
And I just said to myself, this don't feel.

Speaker 2 (01:41:45):
Right to me.

Speaker 3 (01:41:46):
And Dusty approached me, and I decided to go to
the Carolinas.

Speaker 2 (01:41:53):
And then once Jimmy Crockett sold his business to turn Ol,
family left and they asked if I could create another
kobuki and I said, well, I can't create a kobuki,
but I can create some similar and they said, well

(01:42:16):
would who would you get to do this? And I
had known Dukiya Muka for many many years since pak Song,
well actually since Texas. I wrestled him in Texas as
a young boy. Uh and Uh Paksong and the great Kobuki,
And they said, we got him boy named the Great Mutaa,

(01:42:38):
and I say, I know him. I saw him on
World Class. He was in World Class. Muda had been
around a long time, but had never really been packings
there given any direction. So I got in touch with him,
Matsuda and in touch with me, and I took him
around to towns here in the Carolina. It's just small towns,

(01:42:59):
no big town I showed him some tapes of the
Great Kobuki, and.

Speaker 3 (01:43:04):
I told him, I want you not to be the
Great Kobuki. I want you to be similar.

Speaker 2 (01:43:10):
You know, I want to present you as the son
of the Great Kobuki, but I'm not going to tell
everyone that in the beginning. I'm going to wait. And
I don't want you to be mean and evil like
the Kobuki. I want you to be like a superhero
with a bad guy right. Because my biggest fear was
I didn't want people to think I'm copying myself on

(01:43:30):
the Great Kobuki. I wanted to make the Mooda completely opposite, similar,
but opposite. And he became the Great Mooda really really
quickly and did tremendous business. A great kid. Had a
lot of good times with him.

Speaker 1 (01:43:47):
When you first got in there. You managed Alparez? What
are you remembers of managing out?

Speaker 2 (01:43:50):
Alparez was probably the greatest athlete and the best legitimate
rustler that I ever managed, and guy had nothing but
good times went out.

Speaker 1 (01:44:02):
We did a shoot with him years back up, What
in your opinion, what happened with him? And why do
you think he disappeared one day? Well, I'll tell you
exact story what happened to him.

Speaker 2 (01:44:14):
I went to the office and I lobbed for him
to work with Ricky Flair, right and the first night
he was supposed to, Russell Flair was in the Bayfront
at Florida and Kevin Sullivan came to me a few
days before and said, Gary al Parres said he's going

(01:44:36):
to shoot on Ricky Flair at the Bayfront And I
said that please, that's ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (01:44:44):
So he said, well, you better check. So I went
to AWL.

Speaker 2 (01:44:47):
I said, out, did you tell someone that you were
going to shoot on Ricky and take the belt from him?
And he said yes. I said, you got to be viby.

Speaker 3 (01:44:57):
He said, no, I can be.

Speaker 2 (01:44:59):
I'm a better So so I'll beat him and then
they'll have to give me a big contract to drop
the belt back. I said, oh, you can't do that.
I went to the office representing you to get you
this opportunity. Now you're going to tell me that you're
going to shoot on Ricky and take the title. You
think Ricky's just going to lay down and let this happen.

(01:45:22):
It's not going to do that. And I'll say, well,
I don't care. I can do it, and I'm going
to do it in my hometown. And I said, you're
going to do it without me? I can't do this.

Speaker 3 (01:45:32):
I mean I've worked for the Crockets off and on
for twenty years.

Speaker 2 (01:45:36):
You know I can't. I can't do this. So he says, well,
I'm going to do it. So I went to Kevin
and I said, Kevin, it's the truth. He told me
it was the truth. So they figured out the idea
that Gary didn't show up so the match couldn't take place.
They said, in a contract and Gary Heart's not in
the corner, the match is not validated and right the match.

Speaker 3 (01:46:02):
So that's when Al and I separated.

Speaker 1 (01:46:04):
Well did any of the boys go up to him
and you know, say, what are you thinking?

Speaker 2 (01:46:09):
No? I don't think so, only I I did I
said he was pretty much yeah, that was it. Yeah, yeah,
And I hated to see that, but I could not.
I could not allow that, you know, I had to.
You know, even though I represented him and I liked him,
I had a responsibility to the office and to the promotion,

(01:46:31):
you know, I had. I was the one that went
and asked, please give out an opportunity to go around
with Ricky and make big money. And then he wanted
to say, yeah, wanted a contract. Yeah, yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (01:46:45):
Did you ever see the tension between Dusty and Flair
behind the scenes.

Speaker 2 (01:46:50):
I think that was really overblown. I don't think that.
I think probably there was a little jealousy. But really,
when you start thinking, I want did Ricky and Dusty
have to be upset about? They were both making more
money than they ever made in their whole life. The
Crocketts had a g One and they had a Lyric Jet.

(01:47:10):
We were flying on the g One or the Lyric Jet.
We were all making two hundred thousand dollars a year.
Everyone's carrying Louis Ventan, Gucci's, Halla, Burtons, all in Brioni suits,
all driving Binses or Lexus or Cadillacs or Lincoln's I mean,
what was there to be angry about them?

Speaker 1 (01:47:29):
Members of managing Larry Zabisco had a good time with
Larry Sabisco, good guy too.

Speaker 3 (01:47:34):
I got nothing but time for Larry Sabisco.

Speaker 1 (01:47:37):
How do the things change? After Dusty left the company?

Speaker 3 (01:47:41):
The last semblance of any.

Speaker 2 (01:47:47):
Reality was George Scott. George Scott came in to replace
Dusty for a short period of time and he's the
one that asked me to develop a Mookie like guy.

Speaker 3 (01:48:02):
And after that they went into the committee and it
was all downhill.

Speaker 2 (01:48:07):
After that, the only thing they really had was Ricky,
Terry Sting and Mudha, which we did tremendous business for
well over a year. But other than that, it was
constant termorrow with everyone else. Everyone trying to get a
bigger contract, get an extendent on a contract. No one

(01:48:30):
wanted to cooperate or do anything or anyone else. It
really fell apart. Jim Hurd had not a clue. Jim
Barnett was happy just to set back and take his money.
Jim Ross was very new at things like this. The
committee that they developed, nobody on that committee had any

(01:48:51):
booking experience. None of them was people that you could
say were legitimate main event guys who had drawn a
lot of money over the years.

Speaker 1 (01:49:02):
They were all.

Speaker 2 (01:49:03):
Novice wanting to be bookers and manipulators, but very few
of them had any real experience at running the company
of that subties.

Speaker 1 (01:49:14):
Do you think Flair Sawyer was one of dust these
guys and treated joining differently.

Speaker 2 (01:49:18):
No, I Drone, I think Ricky. You know, Ricky was
one of my boys too. You got to remember Ricky
Flair when he was world champion. Harley Race wanted that
belt back and Dusty Rose wanted that belt back. I
was the booker at the Dallas office, one of the
bigger territories, and I was constantly on the phone to
anyone that would listen, praising Ricky Flair and the importance.

Speaker 3 (01:49:40):
Of keeping him with the title.

Speaker 2 (01:49:42):
No, I don't think Ricky sell me anything other than
an ally to him who put the Jtex Corp together.

Speaker 1 (01:49:49):
His idea was that was mine.

Speaker 2 (01:49:51):
I had a jab but he was from Texas, so Ja, Texas.
It was surprised me that people picked up on that. Me.

Speaker 3 (01:49:58):
It was just a throwout line.

Speaker 6 (01:50:00):
It was like, you know, I didn't want to just
there were so many managers there at the time, and
I wanted to present it a little different, so like
I did in Texas with h and Ah, I wanted
to have it like a corporate saying a separate entity.

Speaker 3 (01:50:16):
So I had two or three Japanese guys when.

Speaker 1 (01:50:19):
They had Terry Funk.

Speaker 2 (01:50:21):
So j text here will say we were a corporation
that was controlled by Japan and the people bought it.
And to me it was no big Dad.

Speaker 3 (01:50:30):
I didn't set out and say I'm going to do
this mean it was just something I did that.

Speaker 1 (01:50:34):
Clicked memories of our managing Terry Funk.

Speaker 2 (01:50:38):
Terry Funk and I we go way back, as I
said earlier in this interview where I first met him,
and Terry was tremendous. We had nothing but good times.
And the great thing was that during that period, the
last two matches of the Evening was Muta and Sting
and then Terry and Ricky. And some times I would say,

(01:51:02):
there's no way you guys could follow Stein and Muda
because they would just tear the place up. But Terry
and Ricky would go out and after a while they
would catch the people and follow him. That was a
hard thing to do, to follow Mood and Sting every
night because they were so fresh and right. I mean,
here two guys look like super heroes, flying around, spurting green,

(01:51:26):
spurting red, you know, and come out carry and I
against Ricky you know me, but we followed. I mean
we had great matches together.

Speaker 1 (01:51:34):
Memories of young Sting what was like the workstation.

Speaker 2 (01:51:37):
I never cared Sting. I thought he was a selfish,
egotistical bastard because he thought he was more important than
anyone else. He thought that Rustling owed him something. He
had no respect for it. He had no respect for
the tradition of wrestling. He had no respect for the

(01:51:57):
struggle that other guys had had to go through to
get where they were at when it was given to
him by Dusty Rows. And if it hadn't been for
guys like Rick Flair, al Perebz had the great Mudha,
I don't think he would have ever had ad any
success at all, because he would if you watch one

(01:52:18):
of steam matches, you see him on. I'm going to
give you a little example. Here's a guy that had
one of the greatest personas ever developed in wrestling. He
was a super duper hero that children of all ages loved,
women loved him. And what did he do? He dyed

(01:52:41):
his hair black, painted his face white, and came from
the ceiling.

Speaker 3 (01:52:46):
Is that a smart guy?

Speaker 1 (01:52:48):
You're exactly right?

Speaker 3 (01:52:49):
Is that a guy that knows what's going on? Is
that a guy that really cares about the fans and
what he developed?

Speaker 2 (01:52:58):
That would be like me growing my hair out and
turn it red and dressed like Jim Garnett, right, I mean,
it would be ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (01:53:05):
So no, I never had any time Pristine. I really didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:53:08):
What about Les Lex? Probably I had a little more
time for Lex than I did this Sting. I don't
think Lex like being a wrestler. I don't think he
appreciated wrestling. But Lex was a loner. He wasn't a
guy that he wasn't out and about like Sting. I
just never had any time priesteem.

Speaker 1 (01:53:28):
I guess Rick Flair said, and well, actually Tory said
in a lot of ears that it's always He said
that Flora is very instrumental killing the program. Do you agree?

Speaker 2 (01:53:37):
No, I don't. I think the committee was the one
that wanted to kill the program because they wanted to
have the Four Horsemen reunited, which was about as old
as my grandmother's Tess you know, nobody wanted to see that,
all right, but Olie, arn Cully and Ricky, they all

(01:53:57):
wanted to get back into that floor hersman thing, which had.

Speaker 3 (01:54:02):
Been done to the point where in the beginning it
was great.

Speaker 2 (01:54:07):
At the end it was old and tired, and I
think that that's what Ricky wanted and wanted to get
away from Urky with Terry. But carry had a great run.
We had well over a year. You know, every major
city three or four times. How many times can you

(01:54:27):
do the same dance with the same girl.

Speaker 1 (01:54:30):
What were the ratifications of the night that you and
Terry put the bag over flesh had on TVs.

Speaker 3 (01:54:36):
We didn't know we were going to get that kind
of reaction.

Speaker 2 (01:54:39):
We had no idea, you know, I mean, we thought,
let's do something a little different, you know, something that
would catch the people's at kitchen, because Carrie had just
went through the surgery on his arm, and we said, hey,
let's put a bag over his head. And the reaction
we got, I mean, the the phones lit up at

(01:55:01):
TBS and the second airing of it, they wouldn't show
the bag and there was a lot of heat and
I ended up taking the bulk for that they wanted
to know who and why, and I said it was
my idea and I wanted Did it in.

Speaker 1 (01:55:19):
Your meetings without executives? Did they ever bring up your
firing from years earlier or not?

Speaker 2 (01:55:23):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:55:24):
Sure, yeah, And I always told him the same thing.
You know, check my track record. That's what I always
went on.

Speaker 2 (01:55:33):
Look where I was at, how long I was there,
and how good business was when I was there, and
more importantly.

Speaker 3 (01:55:42):
How it dropped off when I left.

Speaker 2 (01:55:45):
The only place I ever left that business didn't die
was Texas when I left, and the free Birds remained.

Speaker 3 (01:55:53):
Any other place, with.

Speaker 2 (01:55:54):
The exception of the Carolinas where Gary would lead, business
would go down.

Speaker 1 (01:56:01):
In eighty nine, A lot of people say, and I
agree with the statement that it was probably the hottest
period ever in WW until the NWR happened. Do you
agree with that statement? Well, eight eighty nine.

Speaker 3 (01:56:14):
You see, it's easy to get trapped in who's the best?

Speaker 2 (01:56:18):
What was the greatest? Was it a long, good run? Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:56:25):
Was it packed with talent?

Speaker 2 (01:56:27):
Yes? Now you look at all the people that left.
I left, the Road Warriors left, Sid Vicious left, Steve
Williams left, the Steiners left. It was more or less
the talent that had that run had finished up and left,

(01:56:48):
and the talent that came in to replace it didn't
click as well. And I think until the nWo came
around and did it went back up sky But for
a very short period of time.

Speaker 1 (01:57:02):
Did you do any booking at all during the period
of eighty nine, It wasn't pretty much just the committee's It.

Speaker 2 (01:57:06):
Was the committee. I took care of Muda and I
took care of Kerry. I figured their finishes, their promos,
who they were going to be working against, which was
Flaaren Steing. I mean, I thought that was a no brainer.
But what the finishes would be and how we would
structure tag matches and things like that.

Speaker 1 (01:57:26):
Was there ever any jealousy between you and other managers
like Cornett Hayman or Umberdeki, No, not.

Speaker 3 (01:57:30):
At all, because they weren't in my class and they
all knew it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:34):
What are your thoughts on Paul Paul Hayman.

Speaker 2 (01:57:36):
Yeah, I don't really know Paul that well, only many
just a little bit, just a little bit. I thought
he was overly energetic. I think he tried to be
more of the show than some of his wrestlers. I
always thought that anytime you try to call attention to yourself,

(01:57:59):
you take away from the guys that you're representing.

Speaker 3 (01:58:02):
But I guess, you know, as all in all, he
was okay, what.

Speaker 1 (01:58:07):
About your memories the Buzz Sawyer his brief.

Speaker 2 (01:58:10):
I liked Buzz a lot. Buzz was a guy that
had a very very bad drug problem. Also, I tried
talking with him. I tried talking with Van Eric Boys,
I tried talking with Chris Adams, you know, but you know,
when the demon got your soul, man, it's it's no
way out. But Buzz was terrific. But when he was
on this ship, you know, you couldn't deal with him.

(01:58:31):
Even Only couldn't deal with him. Only and I were
talking about the other day and we both really liked
Buzz a lot, but we couldn't even deal with Buzz
at the end, because when.

Speaker 3 (01:58:43):
You when you're dealing with a drug addict, it's always
i'll do better tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:58:47):
I won't do it anymore. And I'm sorry, but you know,
once it gets you, man, once you give your soul
to drugs, your life is over.

Speaker 3 (01:58:57):
Very few make it out.

Speaker 4 (01:58:59):
Very few, as far us his death goes, What did
you get the circumstances where I heard they found him
setting under a tree in a chair, right right, odeed, Yeah,
you believe it was od or accidental.

Speaker 3 (01:59:11):
Most of these guys that went that way, it was accidental.

Speaker 2 (01:59:15):
They didn't. They weren't tired of life. They ran it
through with life. They just you know, went one total.
Really wine, We.

Speaker 1 (01:59:22):
Did a shoot Last Name with Manny, and Manny talked
about a drug deal that he was involved with him
in Buzz and there's guns actually that were fired.

Speaker 2 (01:59:30):
Would you get involved with the illegal drugs? You have
to deal with people that will shoot you if they
think you're trying to screw them over. How did you
wind up leaving w CW Well, I had an incident
in Baltimore with some fans with Terry Funk and Ricky Flair, and.

Speaker 3 (01:59:52):
I had to slap a couple of people around and
they threw him out of the building.

Speaker 2 (01:59:57):
The promoter, Gary Competita, right that Gary just Gary, just
excuse me, Gary Competive, I believe was the announcer, very
good announcer, by the way, uh and uh, Gary justin
led it back in the arena. So therefore they sued me.
And Jim Hurd's theory was that I go to court,

(02:00:18):
put my hand on the Bible and swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, nothing bunch of truth. And
amid that wrestling was.

Speaker 1 (02:00:27):
Worked that I was minuted plated, and I told him
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (02:00:31):
Going to do that. I'm not going to go out
and court a law and say that I'm a phony.
I've been a phony my whole life because I wasn't.
I never looked at wrestling as fake. I looked at
it as manipulated. And I wasn't prepared to do that.
And he told me, he said, well, I admitted it

(02:00:53):
in the well. I believe it was the Wall Street Journal,
and he picked up the paper off his ass and said,
looking here, I admitted it. And I said, you're not
Gary Hart, and I am, and you can kiss my
ass and go to Hell. I'm going home to Texas.
So I quit.

Speaker 1 (02:01:10):
Wow. What was the project you and Chris Adams were
doing together in the World Class two?

Speaker 2 (02:01:18):
We had done several things independent promotions. Chris was trying
to put together a television show. As you know, independent
wrestling is very very difficult to do financially. It's hard
to get financing and it's so expensing. Now with television

(02:01:38):
and post production actually just to tape. Now it's cheaper
because of the computers and things like that, but at
this time period it was still linear. I believe they
called it their digital. Unless you had the capability of
shooting a live show on tape the way we did

(02:01:58):
for many many years, did you have to go to
post and it cost so much money.

Speaker 3 (02:02:04):
It just never never could get enough money.

Speaker 2 (02:02:07):
To do it the right way.

Speaker 1 (02:02:09):
You pretty much disappeared for a little period of time.
What did you do around this time period? Nothing? Just relaxed.

Speaker 2 (02:02:16):
I just, you know, I had been on I had
been in wrestling for thirty five years in ninety five
when I decided enough is enough, you know, so I
just more or less hung out with my children and
you know, raised them and enjoyed my life and had

(02:02:36):
a good time. When I quit or retired, however you
want to put it, I had had a full cup,
you know. I had had a great career. I traveled
all over the world. I had no more mountains to climb.
And to be honest with you, I hated the time
in the dressing room. I hated airports, I hated getting

(02:02:56):
in the car. I mean, I didn't hate wrestling. I
loved that small little portion.

Speaker 7 (02:03:03):
Of time that we would go to the ring and
we would have the match, right, But all the things
you had to do to get to do that, it
wasn't worthwhile to me anymore.

Speaker 2 (02:03:16):
I mean I got to the point where dressing rooms
were like jail. Airports were aggravating driving two three hundred
miles in a car. I just didn't want to do it.
I would be driving at night and you'd drive down
the highway and you'd see lights on all the houses,

(02:03:37):
and you'd say to yourself, why an I home with
my family. So just one day I just said, this
is it. I'm through. I'm finished, I'm going I'm not
going to do it anymore. Not that I was unhappy.
I wasn't bitter. I was just through.

Speaker 3 (02:03:53):
I just started out, probably burned out as probably the
best way.

Speaker 2 (02:03:57):
Not like I say, not the poor of time that
the actual performance took place.

Speaker 1 (02:04:04):
I loved that I had to schedule and travel. I
couldn't deal.

Speaker 2 (02:04:07):
With that anymore. I didn't want that. I if it
would have been a secret way that I could have
showed up five minutes before the match, went to the
ring and had to match, you know, I would have
had no problem. But all the things you have to
do see people they only see that little small glipse

(02:04:28):
of you on TV. They don't understand or realize what
entails to get to that moment, you know. I mean
when I would be on thirty thirty five day ters
and sometime twice on Saturday and twice on Sunday, you know,
I mean imagine. I remember I left Daytona Beach Christmas.

(02:04:53):
I took my voice to the barbershop and they both
got bur haircuts because they getting into body surving or
booty boards. Right when I came back, your hair had
grown out. I said, my god, what am I doing.
I'm missing my children's childhood, you know. And I had
children's life. I had my first childhood thirty six, my

(02:05:16):
second child at thirty eight, and here I am at
forty eight, and my little boys are growing up and
daddy's on the road.

Speaker 3 (02:05:25):
And I just didn't want that. I wanted to be
with them.

Speaker 2 (02:05:28):
I didn't want to be in a hotel and call
home and you know, Daddy when you're coming home. I
didn't want that. I wanted to be with them. So
it wasn't really hard for me to make that decision.
I mean, it was very easy for me to say
enough is enough?

Speaker 1 (02:05:45):
How did you wind up in an MLW for Court Doller?

Speaker 2 (02:05:48):
Court bar called me and he was doing this fifteen
year anniversary of I quit with Terrie Funk and Ricky there.

Speaker 3 (02:06:00):
I think he was doing it with Terrie Fuck and
a young kid.

Speaker 1 (02:06:04):
What's his career?

Speaker 2 (02:06:05):
Yes, Steve Carrino and asked me if I would come
and be a part of that. And I met Court
then and over a period of time I became a
dear friend of his, a very dear friend of mine.
Now I encouraged him, you know, to to send his
resume to the WWE, and he was with them for

(02:06:27):
quite some time. Think that it's probably one of the
last guys that I really mentored to, you know, and
tried to help office wise, not in rustling, but how
to conduct yourself in the inner office, and how to
get your ideas through and how to avoid problems that

(02:06:49):
come up.

Speaker 3 (02:06:50):
Because everyone is jealous of the guy.

Speaker 2 (02:06:51):
With the idea, right, you know, it's easier to set
around and talk about how bad his idea is rather
than to come up with an idea for yourself.

Speaker 3 (02:07:03):
So he was the last guy, I really spent a
lot of time. Was it try to help?

Speaker 1 (02:07:07):
Do you think the company have potential? And do you
think the company MLW had potential or was just a
financial thing.

Speaker 2 (02:07:13):
Though its financially as you well know, it is a
very expensive proposition to supply yourself with the right talent,
with airline fares and talent fees and a read a
cost and TV costs, And I think court being naive.

(02:07:35):
He thought more was better. Where I encourage guys, if
you're going to promote independent shows, go with ten to
twelve guys that can have a match. Don't bring twenty
twenty five guys, because when you get twenty or twenty
five guys, you try to do three tapes in one evening.

(02:07:58):
Number one, you're going to bore the people to death
before the show is over. Number two, there's no way
you can control that many matches. You can't be hands on.
So my advice always to him was smaller is better.
You know, bring twelve guys, use them twice, you know,

(02:08:22):
use four matches per tape, right, three if possible. Four
at the most. Concentrate your thinking around the smaller group. Financially,
it's easier to take care of less plain fares, less
talent fees, less hotel rooms. But you know, some people

(02:08:43):
think bigger is better, and I think he spent a
fortune trying to make a wrestling company.

Speaker 1 (02:08:51):
What do you think in today's world of Parson, what
is missing from the sport?

Speaker 2 (02:08:56):
Well, my thing always was when I I would set
down and I would talk to a guy that I
would potentially consider managing, I would ask them a question.
I would say, what do you want? Do you want
to be a superstar. I wouldn't use the word superstar,

(02:09:17):
that's a new word. I said, do you want to
be a star? Do you want to be a main
event wrestler? And the ones that told me I want
to be a star, I walked away from the ones
that said to me, I want to be a main
event wrestler. Those were the ones that I wanted to
deal with. I think the modern day guys, they think

(02:09:37):
that they are superstars. They think that their self impartance
is well overblown. I think there is a handful of
guys that are really really good, guys like John Cena,
guys like Randy Arten, guys like Hunters Townsley Fit Finley

(02:09:59):
is another guy.

Speaker 3 (02:10:01):
But a lot of these guys, they look alike, they
are as alike.

Speaker 2 (02:10:05):
They all come to the ring, get on the second row,
put up their hands and want the people to cheer
because they walk to the ring for God's sakes. So
trump do something make the people respond. Once they do this,
they forget the crowd is there. They go out and
they do their three or four little high spots which
spots whatever they call them. And it's the same spots

(02:10:29):
every time. It's boring. It's very very boring. But you
got a guy like Sena, who I think a lot
of people are off of, but I think he's done tremendous.
Randy Artin, I think he is fabulous. I think there
are some guys that are really really good. But even

(02:10:50):
in my day, there were very few elite guys and
a whole bunch of also rans. Today I think there's
more also rans and very few elite guys. I agree.

Speaker 1 (02:11:04):
Who are your favorite guys that you like to work with?
As far as managing.

Speaker 3 (02:11:08):
Well, Don Jardine would have been my all time favorite.

Speaker 2 (02:11:13):
I really like you. Fernandez a lot, Mark Lewin a lot,
Al Perez a whole lot.

Speaker 3 (02:11:20):
I mean not only was either a manager, we were buddies.

Speaker 2 (02:11:23):
You know, we really liked each other personally, so those
would have been my favorite ones.

Speaker 1 (02:11:29):
Is there anybody that, well, I guess there wouldn't be.
I was gonna answer for anybody that you were with
that you hated, but you pretty much chose everybody.

Speaker 2 (02:11:36):
No. No, I would not unless I felt that we
could be friends. Because when you're a manager with a guy,
I mean, the guy has to really trust you that
that you're going to do what's best for him, you know.
And if you don't find a guy that you like,
it's not easy to get people to do things that

(02:12:00):
they don't want to do. And if you don't like
a guy, you know, I mean, you're not going to
go that extra mile for him. And I was very
selective of guys I managed. I had a few guys
that I did as favors for other people, but basically
most of the guys that I managed, even now when
I see them, like last night, I saw the one

(02:12:21):
Man Gang. I haven't seen him in twenty years. All right,
come up and give me a big hug. You know,
if I talked to Larry Sabisco or the Ultimate Warrior,
you know, all these guys were with me when they
were young.

Speaker 1 (02:12:33):
I forgot to ask me about THINGO.

Speaker 2 (02:12:35):
Yeah, I like person. He was a terrific guy. I
even when he made it big in New York, I
was in WCW. I would see him at the airports.
He was always very, very nice. It'll always go and
give me a big hug, thank me for everything. Never
had any problems with him. But like I said, I
had very few problems with guys that I booked or managed.

(02:12:59):
I always had a pretty good rapport with them, and
we left on good terms too, which was always nice.

Speaker 1 (02:13:06):
I guess, if you're watching a sport today, who do
you think that you've watched today that you could have
made a lot of money.

Speaker 2 (02:13:10):
With Helmsley, a guy like Arton, a guy like Batista.
I believe I could have positioned them. I would be
more selective of opponents for them right then. They have
somebody doing for them now. But I think Helmsley. I

(02:13:32):
know he gets a lot of heat because he married Stephanie,
but the guy was a big star even before. Anyone
would deny that. He's the greatest thing in wrestling today.
In my book, I think Bob Orton, Randy, Bob's son
is tremendous.

Speaker 3 (02:13:52):
I think John Cena gets a bad rap.

Speaker 2 (02:13:55):
I think the kid he goes out every time and
has a good match. I think he's tremendous. He reminds
me a.

Speaker 3 (02:14:02):
Lot of the von Eric Boyce.

Speaker 2 (02:14:05):
I think, like I said, Batista, I think he's limited,
but I see him like Hawk, the road warrior type guy.

Speaker 3 (02:14:14):
I think people really connect with him.

Speaker 2 (02:14:16):
I think he's he's very, very good.

Speaker 3 (02:14:19):
And probably there's a.

Speaker 2 (02:14:21):
Couple of other guys you know that I'm overlooking, but
those would be the three that I would say.

Speaker 3 (02:14:28):
Would fit in in my time or any other time.

Speaker 1 (02:14:31):
He once said that you made a mistake by not
managing Leon white.

Speaker 2 (02:14:37):
Well, I was so consumed and tied up with the
Great Mova that I passed on beyond. I think I
could have really helped Leon in a lot of ways.
Leon was a very insecure guy. I found out later
Leon had a few problems. He had difficulty dealing with others.

(02:15:00):
I think he had a real lack of confidence in
his ability, and I think I could have really helped
him become grounded and realize who he is and what
he had to offer and what his value was. And
I think I could have made him a happier guy.
I think a lot of times guys like say Vicious

(02:15:21):
and other guys, they're in a situation where everyone's in
their ear telling them this, and I think a lot
of times it puts them on very unsteady ground.

Speaker 3 (02:15:32):
I think I could have grounded Leon White and really.

Speaker 1 (02:15:36):
Helped him a lot. Who's the smartest man you ever
worked with? Smartest booker or talent talent? What do you
mean by the smartest helping you? Pretty much listen to
everything he told him, and.

Speaker 2 (02:15:49):
Most all of them, I mean they had confidence that
Gary knew what he was doing and that Gary had
their best interests at Harden.

Speaker 1 (02:15:59):
If Bertie was all a lot today, how do you
think his career would have went up to this point.

Speaker 2 (02:16:04):
I think Bruiser Brody would have been Bruiser Brody. You know,
I don't know how he would have handled corporate wrestling.
I think he would have been much like me, because
he was a rebel at art he had. He wanted
to be Bruiser Brody, and anyone to try to take
that away was going to have trouble.

Speaker 1 (02:16:25):
Did you think he would have ended up in ECW
at some point?

Speaker 3 (02:16:27):
I don't really I don't think so Japan, and I
think Japan. Yeah, he had such a good deal in Japan.

Speaker 1 (02:16:33):
I don't mean on TV today, I mean old w
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (02:16:37):
I don't. I don't think Bruiser would have went that route.
I really don't. I think Brewiser had such a good
deal in Puerto Rico and such a good deal in Japan.
And he also had New Zealand. He had Australia that
were open for him too, and he made enough money.
You know, he had Saint Louis, he had Texas, he
had Indianapolis, he had Minneapolis. Brew User had more work

(02:17:01):
than he could handle. So I think he would have
been okay. I think Bruiser would have been much like me.
I think the beginning of the nineties he would have
hung it up and said, I've had it. You know,
corporate wrestling is not for me.

Speaker 1 (02:17:16):
Did you ever have a problem with Missing Link?

Speaker 2 (02:17:19):
Yeah? I did.

Speaker 1 (02:17:20):
What was that story?

Speaker 2 (02:17:22):
Well, I was the matchmaker, KIV producer for World Class
the last time, and Kim Mantel came back in and
brought Missing Link in a couple other guys, and I
don't know if.

Speaker 1 (02:17:42):
I feel it was a setup. I think that Kim Mantell.

Speaker 3 (02:17:46):
Wanted Missing Link to attack me and do me harm.

Speaker 2 (02:17:51):
I believe that.

Speaker 3 (02:17:52):
That's what I believe.

Speaker 2 (02:17:54):
And I'm setting in addressing room one night and going
over the show with Ed Watt, winding out to show
the interbitions and time limits and ardor of matches, and
he snuck through the back door, came up behind me
and hit me in my back of my head, and
I thought, you know, what the hell is that? Because wrestler's,

(02:18:17):
you know, they do shit like that, so I didn't
pay too much attention. I didn't even look around, and
then it was just an incident. Boomy caught me again.
This time he hit me in a temple and knocked
me off the bench. I was straddling a bench and
knocked me off the bench between the bench and the lockers,

(02:18:37):
and that dazed me. I mean, I don't know if
I sknocked out, but I was pretty dazed. And the
next thing I saw he was reaching over to pick
me up, and I had a straight edge razor blink
in my pocket that I always carried for my own protection.

Speaker 3 (02:18:55):
And when he bent over the picked me up, I
started cutting him with the.

Speaker 2 (02:19:00):
Razor and opened him up pretty good and he ran
screamed like a bitch, ran out no guns, no balls,
you know, but I think he was put up to
that by Kim Mantell.

Speaker 1 (02:19:11):
How did it end? That was pretty much it?

Speaker 2 (02:19:13):
That was it, brother. He didn't want no more to
do with me.

Speaker 1 (02:19:16):
Do you think a male manager could still get over
today in wrestling?

Speaker 2 (02:19:19):
Because now male? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:19:21):
Because now it's pretty.

Speaker 2 (02:19:21):
Much Oh, of course, of course it's it's Would a
male manager be allowed to be a male manager? Would
the current promotion allow a person like me to exist?
Nor would they allow a person like Paul Ellery to exist? No,

(02:19:46):
would they allow a person like Jimmy Carnett to exist?
I doubt it does.

Speaker 1 (02:19:53):
Lack of aut Kate aban wrestling today bother you.

Speaker 2 (02:19:56):
It did when when when it was exposed for by
Turner's people in the Wall Street Journal, that really pissed
me off. And when Vince exposed it, it really pissed
me off. But as time has went by, you know,
I learned to live with it. And if they think

(02:20:19):
that that's the way to go. But I know one thing.
I was never a phony. I was never a faker.
Did I manipulate, Yes I did, But I wasn't someone
that would lay down just because a promoter told me to.
If I didn't want to do it, I wouldn't do it,

(02:20:39):
and I would be prepared to take the consequences. And
I was fired on multiple occasions because I didn't go
along with what promoters wanted me to do. So I
looked at myself. In my era of wrestling, you had
the right to say no. There was a price to
pay for it, and some of us that price on

(02:21:00):
more than one occasion, where today it's hard to say
no because there's so few places to go, right.

Speaker 3 (02:21:09):
So that's really the difference in wrestling.

Speaker 2 (02:21:12):
If there was multitude, if there were five places, then
you could go and make money. A promoter could not
control you. The only way you can be controlled is
when there's no place else to go.

Speaker 3 (02:21:28):
You either go home or you do what they want.
I could not exist in that world.

Speaker 1 (02:21:34):
You think a territory could work in the stage, of
course it could.

Speaker 2 (02:21:38):
Financially, it'd be difficult for the first couple of years.
But once you had your window of opportunity established on TV,
you had your venue established, and you had your tablet established,
why couldn't.

Speaker 1 (02:21:57):
You someone that would offer you a job as far
as booking is hard.

Speaker 2 (02:22:01):
Story, would you come back if they had financially they
could control it, they had enough money to make a
go of it and pay your talent decent. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:22:16):
Are you surprised that Rickflesh still on like the TV
and wrestling to this day.

Speaker 2 (02:22:21):
I think it's sad, you know, I think that Ricky
is missing so much. You know, there is life after wrestling.
Their life is great when you don't have to be
someplace every evening, and I just think Ricky is in
the mode of I've got to do this. Dusty is
the same, Terry Funk was the same. I was blessed.

(02:22:43):
I didn't have to continue being gary hard to be happy.
I could go home, hang out with my children and
do other things and be very happy. Some guys, they're
only way they identified themselves is I'm so and so
in rustling, And I think that's a curse. It's so

(02:23:07):
nice to reflect on my career, but it wouldn't be
nice if I was still trying to build on that legacy.

Speaker 3 (02:23:18):
I mean, it would be ridiculous. I just feel bad.

Speaker 2 (02:23:21):
When I see guys like Dusty or Ricky or Terry Funk.
I will say one thing about Ricky. He doesn't cut
his match short, he doesn't cheat the fans. He still
goes out and has a tremendous match. But I hate
to see him do it. I hated to see it
when Luthays did it. I hated it when Fritz did it.

(02:23:42):
You know, I hated it when I saw Eddie Graham
doing it. You know, I believe when you get into
your late forties, early forties, it's time to hang it up.
I just don't think it's a good idea to wrestle
into your fifth or sixties.

Speaker 3 (02:24:01):
I think that's wrong.

Speaker 1 (02:24:03):
What are your thoughts on newsletters and the Internet.

Speaker 2 (02:24:05):
I think it's good for business or the Internet. I
think you can't very much trust what's written. I mean,
there are so many rumors and so much gossip. It's
like I tell you a story, you tell someone else
the same story. You tell someone else the story of
the story and the story, and but time it gets

(02:24:26):
out here, it's nothing like As far as the dirt sheets,
you know, I think the people that write them try
to project themselves as a legitimate, you know, commentators, and
represent themselves as someone that's part of the news media.

(02:24:48):
There's been all kinds of shit written about me and
the Vought Erics and Crusa Parodi, and not one of
these guys have ever called me on the phone and
got my opinion or asked me.

Speaker 1 (02:25:02):
What's the biggest misconception that they've said?

Speaker 2 (02:25:05):
Oh? Everything, everything, you know, everything. I mean, they don't
understand who I am, They don't understand my accomplishments. They
don't understand a lot of times. I remember with the
Great Mooda, this guy he kept saying, you know that
I was sandbagging Mouda because I needed a job.

Speaker 3 (02:25:28):
You know, come on, I invented, created the Great Mooda.

Speaker 2 (02:25:31):
I didn't need a job. I could have been with
Leon White, I could have been with Sid Vicious, but
they keep printing it, you know, so I tried not
to read him. I just looked at him as gossip
column that's not serious newspeople.

Speaker 3 (02:25:46):
And I guess, you know, you can grain some knowledge for.

Speaker 2 (02:25:50):
These newsletters, but I really don't bother reading them, you know,
I mean, because they really don't have any insight to it.

Speaker 1 (02:25:58):
And he could go to road stories stick out on
your mind.

Speaker 2 (02:26:02):
Not really, I wasn't that kind of guy, you know,
I mean, I was ribs, No, I wasn't. I didn't
like ribs. I thought ribs were something that was really
disruptive to talent, embarrassing guys, making light of a guy,
making a guy gew foolish. I never saw that as
a good thing. I didn't like ribs. I didn't like

(02:26:25):
that in my office when I was running things.

Speaker 1 (02:26:29):
I guess what do you think is the biggest missing
ingredient from wrestlers on indie shows today?

Speaker 2 (02:26:36):
They don't know how to have a match. They know
how to do a few I believe they call them
wish spots or high spots or may I spots. They
don't know how to have a beginning, a middle, and
an end. All they knew how to do is to
go out and do a bunch of stuff. And they
never pay any attention to the crowd. You know, my generation,

(02:27:01):
we would play a crowd like a fiddle. We would
listen to the response. We would get the vibe from them.
If we were doing something that was getting some attention,
we would stay on it. If we were doing something
and no one was buying it, we would get away
from him like it was a snake. But we paid

(02:27:22):
attention to the reaction. We got from what we were doing,
and we made the crowd part of it. Nowadays, the
young guys, not all of them, but most of them.
Like I said, they recognized the crowd one time when
they get introduced and they go on the second rope
and they say, look at me, and then that's it.

Speaker 1 (02:27:44):
Then they forget the crowd.

Speaker 2 (02:27:45):
I think you have to be a main event wrestler,
and to be a successful wrestler, you have to make
the crowd part of it. I don't mean going and
cursing him and hollering at him, but realizing the reaction
you get from them with things you do. And that's

(02:28:05):
what my generation did better than anyone else. There were
times with more fluent and dusty roads that they wouldn't
even touch for five.

Speaker 3 (02:28:18):
Or six minutes and people would be going crazy.

Speaker 2 (02:28:23):
Nowadays, you couldn't get that because no one pays attention
to the crowd. They go out and they say, Okay,
I'm going to do this, this and this and this,
and if the crowd don't like it, that's okay.

Speaker 3 (02:28:37):
So that's lost, and.

Speaker 2 (02:28:39):
That's why independent and big time wrestling is suffering.

Speaker 1 (02:28:45):
Speaking of a well, let's talk about the media. We
talked about it a little bit earlier on What do
you think about all the attention that the media now
is giving wrestling in regards to drugs.

Speaker 2 (02:28:55):
And in some ways it's good, you know, anytime you
shine a light on something, if it comes and helps,
and so many guys since the eighties, I really noticed
steroids coming into our business in the eighties. So many

(02:29:16):
guys have died.

Speaker 3 (02:29:17):
And I'm not saying that steroids done properly probably are
very good, but when they're abused, they're very harmful. What
happened with bin Wah was a tragedy. I never met
the kid, I didn't know him.

Speaker 2 (02:29:36):
I did know Nancy quite well, and it was heart
wrenching when I heard the way she had to die.
I don't blame it on steroids. I don't blame it
on any kind of drugs. Something like that is something
that it's you can't prevent it.

Speaker 1 (02:29:54):
I don't know what happened.

Speaker 2 (02:29:56):
I don't know what caused him to do what he did.
I don't think saying although he was on steroids or
he was on different kinds of dirucs. There's a lot
of people that do steroids that don't kill anyone. There's
a lot of people that do drugs that don't kill anyone.
I think this was a special, unique situation. What caused

(02:30:16):
it to happen, God only knows, and we'll never know.
I think the media jumped on it like they would
add in the Cole the way they did the bridge
collapsing in Minneapolis, the way they're doing right now with
the miners in Utah. In my estimation, the media are
the biggest bunch of whoores ever invented. If my grandparents

(02:30:41):
sat down and watched the news media today, they would
turn it off. They would have nothing to do with it.
And I think that it was a segment. All these
cable stations they know if they get on and they
blastments and they talk about tragedy, their ratings going to

(02:31:02):
jump two or three points.

Speaker 3 (02:31:04):
And they use it to benefit themselves. And they could
care less.

Speaker 2 (02:31:09):
They could care less about what happened to Nancy or
Daniel or Chris for that matter. They could care less
what kind of slander they bring to the WWE or
what they do harm to Vince's business. I'm sure that
Vince McMahon didn't want anything like that to happen. I'm
sure Linda is as horrified as rest of us. They

(02:31:32):
don't want that. I mean, that's the worst possible thing
that could happen. And how could you hold Vince responsible
for what that would be like holding Gary Hurt responsible
for what happened to the von Erics and Gino and
Chris Adams. God knows. I tried, but it's personal choice.
And I just think the media went overboard and they

(02:31:55):
blew it way out of proportion. I'm not saying the
act that was a minute. It was heinous, it was
beyond horrible, But that was a personal, private thing that happened,
and they try to make it part of all of wrestling.

(02:32:16):
I never beat my wife. I never choked my children.
You know, I never abuse my children or my wife.
I mean, did I smoke pot Yessuh? I knew guys
that that did ascid. I knew guys you know that
that did speed. I never knew them to do that.
So to say that some way wrestling is responsible, that's

(02:32:39):
that's just an easy way to point a finger if
you want to say they're bad, right, But but I
just think it was a horrible tragedy.

Speaker 1 (02:32:47):
Looking looking back onto your career, do you have any regrets?

Speaker 2 (02:32:51):
Not really, man, I really, I feel like I was
one of the most fortunate guys in the world. I
came from the inner city of Chicago, a very a
street kid, you know, high school education, got involved in wrestling,
traveled the whole world, had a great career, made a
lot of money, had a lot of great times.

Speaker 1 (02:33:13):
Is there anything you want to say to your fans
out there that you never had a chance to say.

Speaker 2 (02:33:16):
To Thanks for the support, you know, I mean, which
is very true, and a lot of guys don't say it,
but it's true. Without the ticket buying public, we would
be there in the ring all by ourself. And I appreciate,
you know, the trust that they gave me that when
they saw a guy walk to the ring with me,
they say, he's with Carrie, he must be okay. And

(02:33:38):
you know what better compliment can I say that? Thank
you very much for all your support all those years.

Speaker 1 (02:33:43):
Well, thanks for being here with us today. It was
a great interview.

Speaker 3 (02:33:46):
Hey, I enjoy it, man, I hope it comes out well.

Speaker 1 (02:33:48):
Thank you so much. Titlematchnetwork dot Com

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