September 4, 2025 ⢠51 mins
đ¤Â Paul Orndorffâone of wrestlingâs most underrated starsâtells all in this rare shoot interview. đ From his iconic feud with Hulk Hogan to the botched body slam that ended his career, Orndorff opens up about WWEâs backstage politics. đĽÂ Raw details: Vince McMahonâs broken promises, Roddy Piperâs loyalty, and why he walked away from WrestleMania I glory. đ The untold story of his neck injury, steroid scandals, and the night he stood up to Hogan. â ď¸Â Warning: Contains explosive revelations about wrestlingâs golden era. đą
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/wrestling-shoot-interviews-and-stories--5864462/support.
đĽ Thanks for checking out Wrestling Shoot Interviews and Stories â where the legends speak and the stories hit harder than a steel chair.
đ˛ Stay connected: Facebook Mk-Ultra CAST | X @MkUltracast
đŹ Share your favorite wrestling moments and story ideas with us online.
đď¸ Because every wrestler has a story worth telling.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/wrestling-shoot-interviews-and-stories--5864462/support.
đĽ Thanks for checking out Wrestling Shoot Interviews and Stories â where the legends speak and the stories hit harder than a steel chair.
đ˛ Stay connected: Facebook Mk-Ultra CAST | X @MkUltracast
đŹ Share your favorite wrestling moments and story ideas with us online.
đď¸ Because every wrestler has a story worth telling.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fifty seven Talk dot Com. Gary Cubetta back to Scottsdale,
Arizona with me today the great Paul Orndorf from Georgia. Paul,
pleasure to have you with us.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Thank you, guys, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Well, many people and that might not realize this, but
you started off in pro football. You played with the
Saints and the Chiefs, and then you went to the
World Football League with the Jacksonville Sharks in nineteen seventy five.
What position? What position did you play?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I was a full back. I should have been a linebacker,
but they, you know, fall back because I could block.
I was a good blocker and if they wanted three yards,
they got three yards. And I had good hands and
but my skill really with blocking. I used to like
the block and the w.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
The WFL L only lasted two years. You played in
WFL two. They folded midway through the season. Do you
have any memories of that?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Well, not really. It just you know, I don't even
know why I did it. My heart really wasn't in it.
I just did it for the money. And you can't
do something and for the for the money. You got
to do it for the love and That's why I
did so well in wrestling, because I loved it and
I had a passion for it. I knew that i'd
make it one day. I'd make it big if i'd
(01:12):
gotten it, you know, if I got the chance. And uh,
I got the chance.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I remember, back in the late seventies, you went into
the mid Atlantic territory, which was red hot at the time.
You were instantly on top or close to being on top.
Is there a reason you were able to adjust so quickly?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well? At that time, I was still learning. I was
up in Kansas City and I'd only been in the business,
I don't know, maybe eight months something like that, and
I went to Kansas and I was there, and uh,
that's when George got was at Saint Louis the big Arena,
(01:50):
and you know, every every week or every month. I
think they had a great big show in Saint Louis
at the I believe it was the Schechterdome, I'm not
sure sure about that, but the bigg arena there, and
they would bring in every month. They would bring in
really big, big names. And George Scott was there and
(02:10):
after my match, he came up to me and asked
me if I'd like to come to Charlotte, and uh
I said, yeah, but I just got here. I mean
I'd only been there, like I said, two two or
three weeks, and uh he said I could take care
of that, and uh I was a little bit. Uh
I didn't know if I should do that because you know,
(02:31):
I uh I was with them and I didn't want
to go against my word or or anything, because uh
I stuck by my word. And uh he said it
would be fine, and they talked to him, and uh
they said it would be okay. So I went to
Charlotte and I was there for about a year and
they teamed me up with Jimmy Snooker, and uh that
(02:54):
was one of the best times I ever had as
far as the learning process of this of the business.
And it turned out well for me. And like I said,
I was real green. I mean I was greener than heck.
But being with Jimmy, he you know, he would help
me and I'd be every night, you know, I would
(03:15):
learn something you know, new or different, and I always,
you know, I was a lucky sponge when it came
to that. It's something that you have to do over
and over and over and over for like five six
years before you really really get to know your way
around in the ring, and that's how that happens.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, did you know at the time that you were
going to be one of the premier talents in the
history of professional wrestling? I mean you're teaming with Jimmy Snooker,
who was also one of the all time great Could
you tell that this was just right for you?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Oh? Yeah, I mean I knew that. You know, you
have to work with the best to be the best,
and you have to get that opportunity. And you know,
I had, like I said, I had the passion. Passion
was there. There wasn't It wasn't a problem with that.
I mean, that's what I had going for me is
that I tried so hard and wanted to be you know,
(04:08):
I wanted to be good at it, wanted to be
great at it.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
When you were in mid Atlantic, what type of feedback
did you get from the promotion. Were they telling you, hey, Paul,
this is for you, You're going to be big time?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, I don't know if they tell you that. I
don't think they tell you that, But you know, you
get feedback, and most of the time it ain't good,
you know, a lot of times. They don't tend to
do that that much. That's a control thing. They want
to have control over you, and I, uh, nobody's ever
had control over me, and uh, it wasn't going to
(04:39):
start in this business neither, so, Paul.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
They were very disciplined at that time and keeping the
talent mentally down so that they could the payoffs could
be equally down. So you weren't getting any type of
positive feedback. Let's say, in the world of football, if
your first round draft choice, they're constantly patting you on
the back. Different here, right, totally different.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Whether that's the difference between class and no class. And
most of these promoters had no class, very few of them.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Did you realize early on that payoff wise the business
was going to be difficult? Well, I mean we've spoken
to a lot of guys here from the seventies and
the eighties, a lot of stars, a lot of a
lot of legends, and they've all said that it was
just extraordinary to go out and see a full house
and then the payoff would come, oh yeah, and disappointing.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
That's why I don't I don't really like promoters. That's
why I never got close to too many of them.
I didn't, uh and I wasn't about to kiss that
of them's ass and I didn't And uh yeah, I
uh yeah, absolutely that was it. I mean, And the
and the more you know that you're in a position
that you helped to draw that sellout crowd and you
(05:43):
busted your butt and you bled and you know, you
traveled all that miles and get a payoff, that's a
damn joke. It pissed me off all the time. And
I'd get you know, I'd get to the point that
that I couldn't uh, I couldn't take it anymore. So
I I'd usually just you know, I'd either get fired
or I'd quit. So it didn't matter to me.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Well, were there guys within the promotion, let's say in
mid Atlantic, for example, Rick Flair or Blackjack Mulligan that
the promotion took care of or was it universal across
the board where they'd hold people down.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
No, they took care of certain people. You had a
certain amount of ass kissers and they would kiss ask.
I mean, it was so obvious, and they did, you know,
And then you see a lot of people that really
their talents weren't that good and you can judge. I mean,
you know, you could tell by the responses of the
people and it wasn't there and they hold you back,
(06:40):
and you could tell. It was very obvious. Once you've
been in it a while, you see it. And then
you had a lot of the other say old timers
and stuff, and some of them would open up to
you and you know, teach you that or tell you
things that you just you figure out. You know, when
you pay off so bad they've alway said, you know,
(07:01):
you tell everything depends on your payoff. And if you're
happy what you're getting, then you're happier. If you're not,
then you move on. And I moved on a lot,
you wit a lot eight I think about eight or
ten times in my career I moved on.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You went down to Southeastern Championship Wrestling, teamed with Dick Slater,
won the Southeastern Tag Team Championship Jimmy Golden in Norvelle, Austin.
Was it when you went down that's in the Alabama area?
Was that the same situation as mid Atlantic? We were
you hoping to find a greener pasture or did you
find the same type of pastures?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, that's that way everywhere but I had a guarantee,
you know, I got a certain amount of money. I
would guarantee that every week, and the trips were a
lot shorter. And Dick Slater was one of the best
heels in the business period, and we got along great.
He helped me a lot. Again. You know, there was
you anytime you get to work with people like the
(07:57):
Slaters and the Snookers and so on and so on.
These guys were you know, they were proven commodities. They
proved that they could draw money, and they knew how
to draw money. And that's what I was learning how
to do, is how to And like I said, when
you work with this kind of talent the best, and
you're bound to take it in and I did. And
(08:19):
you work seven nights a week and sometimes twice on Sunday.
That's what's missing in the in the wrestling game now
is that after these guys don't they don't really go anywhere.
There's nowhere for them to go. So they have a
hard time learning. All they see is you know, jumping
off the top rope, for coming out of the ceiling
and doing stuff like that, and all it is is
(08:41):
a cover up for them not knowing how to work,
and there's an art to it, and there's an art
to it that very few people have it nowadays, very few,
if any, that really have that art to fishing people off.
And I just seem to have a knack for it.
The way I looked my body, you know, my look,
I had everything and that's why I did so good.
(09:03):
So it's kind of like a racehorse, you know, you
get one that wins the Preakness there. You know, look
how many racehors as there is, and only one of
them wins that race. So there's few, you know, people
out there that really really was good at it.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, you compare back then to today. You played pro
ball in nineteen seventy five mid Atlantic around seventy eight
seventy nine, you're in Southeastern that's four years of preparation.
Very little, a very small percentage of the country even
has heard of Paul Oorendorff. Today, Like you said, they
just throw guys right into the main events and the
results are obvious. There are no Paul Orndorf.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
No, No, not even close. There really wasn't back then
that much simply because of my style. I said that,
you know, when I went to these places, I said
to myself, I want to be different than everybody else,
and I just took advantage of a god gifted talent.
And I had aggression, I had intimidation. I had the body,
and I was willing to do whatever it took for
(10:00):
that to get across into that. And it took a while,
and every you know, every night I was out in
the ring, I was just kept adding to my repertoire
and kept adding and trying and experimenting, and finally I
got it all together. You know, after about seven years,
six seven eight years, I started getting it all together
and from then on I couldn't be denied.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Well, you started with Mid South. What were your initial
impressions of the operation in Louisiana, Mississippi.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well, I learned more there than anywhere because I was
there off and on for about a four or five
year period. And Bill Watts, you know, he was a
hard ass. He you know, he would all the time
get all me and he was like a coach to me.
A lot of people didn't care for him, and I had,
you know, I had my disagreements with him. I quit
(10:50):
and I got fired with him, but I still any
time I wanted to go back there. I had an
open door, and I was taught a lot, and I
worked with her lad a lot, even back then when
Ernie was you know, he was all crippled up and everything.
But he just gave me a big chance. And he
gave me my biggest chance that I ever had, Ernie.
(11:11):
And you know, Ernie was the booker. Of course, Bill
was the owner, and he was a hands on owner.
And uh, but I got along with Bill good. I mean,
we got along good, and I enjoyed it. You know,
a lot of hard work though, and and you know,
we we started with the crew he had. We had
a lot of guys that wanted to work and didn't
(11:32):
matter about how many miles you travel. I mean I
traveled five five hundred miles, six hundred miles one way
some night. And uh and then a lot of times
I got a you know, fifty dollars payoff and there's
seventy five dollar payoff. And you have to be dedicated, totally,
one hundred percent dedicated. And a lot of a lot
of the guys, you know, I ain't running them down,
(11:55):
but a lot of them weren't dedicated. All they cared
about is getting a paycheck, and say they were wrestling
Alerta and had a sick pack of beer every night,
and they were happy, and I wasn't happy. I wanted
to make money and I felt like I was in
an opportunity that I could make money. And eventually I did.
(12:15):
And the more I learned, and uh, the more I
did and the more I listened, it all started coming together.
So there was a plan in my mind. I had
a plan without a plan or nothing. If you just
depend on you just walking out there and thinking you're
going to be a star and everything, then you won't
get well. I couldn't do it. I got pride in
(12:35):
what I do and I took a lot of pride
in it, a lot of pride. And when I had
a bad match or something, I didn't like that and
I'd stay, well, it ain't gonna happen in the morn night,
and uh, I got better and a lot of times
I had to work harder than the guy that I
was with, you know, because like I said, some of
them could have cared less. How much well, I ain't
(12:56):
gonna say that. They still wanted to make money, but
they didn't do the extra that you need and you
need to give that one hundred percent. I remember Eddie
Graham told me, he said, when you go out there
every night, you give your best because those people out
there are buying a ticket and they're hard working people,
and give them their money's work. And that always stuck
from me from day one, and I tried to do that.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Well, we we've been in the process of interviewing Cowboy
Bill Watson. He told me we interviewed him yesterday morning
and he said, Paul Orndorf, when it came to work,
ethic and intensity was second to none. And you know
he credited you with being a huge help to Mid
South in the early days.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Well, it's true, you know, that's the way I was.
And I think my name and my reputation got out
there and more people were you know, I had a
place to go anytime I wanted to, just like Bob
Wharton Sr. Told me. He like I said, he said,
if you learn how to work, they can't deny you.
And he was right, they couldn't deny you. And I
(13:57):
didn't get denied. Of course, I burnt Regie. You know,
I was pretty good at burning bridges because I said
to myself, I'll never go back there, So I didn't
give a hack, so I didn't.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Paul, do you feel like you burned bridges for justifiable
reasons in retrospect?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
No, I mean, yeah, I didn't handle things the right
way a lot of time. I you know, there was
there should be a business side and not everything is
my way. And of course you learn that life. And
I'm almost sixty years old now and I finally realize that,
so you know, it's best not to unless you're just
(14:32):
so overwhelmed in doing it. Then you got to do
what you gotta do. But I think a lot of
it had to do with just not you know, talking
things over and whenever I felt like I was being
mistreated is when I did that. And if I thought
I was being mistreated, and they could kiss my butt,
you know. And that's the way I felt about it.
(14:53):
And I think that a lot of us guys, many
of them, did get mistreated, you know, first of all,
and insult when it comes to some of your payoffs. See,
that's being mistreated to me. And when I saw that
some of the payoffs for the hard work that I
was trying to do and a lot of guys were doing,
and you get the silly payoffs fifteen dollars twenty dollars.
(15:15):
Sometimes that's garbage. They're teating there like garbage, So they
need to be treated the same way.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And that's what I did to see Paul, you say that,
you know, maybe you handle things incorrectly, but people have
to realize you're giving up your body every night. You're
never the same after you get out of a match.
So this must have been weighing on your mind. You know,
even at that young age, you're starting to feel the
pain of time and not to be paid properly. It's
a tough thing. It's a tough thing for a young
guy to handle.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
That's right, it was. And they didn't care. All they
cared about was how big the crowd was and how
much money they could have of them and take when
you know, all they cared about is how they could
figure in they that you make less. And that's what
it was an insult sometimes and that right insult because
they always at their money no matter what, and a
(16:01):
lot of times we did.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Paul, did you have questions about the NWA early on
how they had carved up the United States? It wasn't competitive?
Did you think you know, this isn't really fair?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
No, not really. Yeah, I never thought of it like that.
I mean, they were dominant. I mean they were the one,
and quite frankly, they were the best. There's no doubt
about it. The best workers that been in this business
came right out of Tampa, Florida, and there's a ton
of them. And when I broke in, it was buddy,
it was tough getting in there. Now, you just you know,
(16:34):
they just didn't open the doors in there. I mean
I went through hell for about eight months, and I
mean hell. And I've been to a lot of the
pro camps in college, in high school and junior high
school football, and it was tougher than all them. I mean,
holy hell, I would my god. And that's I mean,
that is what really branded it. By working hard and
(16:56):
you've earned what got and I did that, but I
wasn't getting for what I did.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Paul, you stuck with the business though many people have
told me that, yes, you know, you and other stars
at the time were cheated. Why did you stick with it?
You didn't like the alternatives of a of a non
athletic career, or did you think maybe this could get
better if I keep you know, up the work ethic,
the intensity.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Well That was the whole thing that that kept me going.
It was that if I had known anything else that
it wouldn't I don't know if I would have stayed
in it, and I surely wouldn't have worked as hard
as I did, probably, But no, I always thought that
it would get better and that I would be one
(17:40):
of the ones that's that made it and got paid
for it. Oh that was my guiding life.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Well, you got a big national break in nineteen eighty
two when you went into Georgia Championship Wrestling because it
was televised on TBS, and most of the country, including myself,
finally got to see you. And you were impressive. You
were very impressive at the time. You had really put
your entire game together, almost entire game together, right, Yeah,
and you had big feuds with buzz Sawyer, Nature Boy,
(18:07):
Rick Flair, the Super Destroyer. In fact, I remember you
were on the very first main event on TV the
week that Georgia Championship Wrestling changed its name to World
Championship Wrestling. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yes, I don't remember the match, but I do remember
that when we did that.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You wrestled the Super Destroyer.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yes, yeah, what what was it?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Like with Jim Barnett and Ole Anderson in Georgia.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I liked him. They you know, Jim Barnett was was
good with the money or as good as it can get,
and I liked only you know, he was fake guy.
He was right up front guy. And you know, if
you said you did stuff good, he'd tell you, and
if you didn't, he'd tell you. So I had no
problems with at all, and I liked you. So we
(18:52):
got along good. And he was that type. He had
that kind of mentality as I did too. You know,
his kind of work was nothing real fancy, but it
was hard, aggressive and you know, maybe not to my speed,
but he was he We were similar in some ways.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Well, I remember even during TV matches, you you were
full game on. Was there an exhaustion that started to
set in with you or or you just passed that
you just wanted the business so bad and this was
an opportunity at national television that you didn't care.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
That's exactly what you did. That's what I did. I mean,
you get to show your stuff when you're on TV
and you have a you just don't have bad night
on days on TV, whatever it may be. That's when
you've got to show your stuff and you have a
short amount of time to do it in and you
absolutely have to have everything, you know, hitting on all cylinders,
(19:46):
and uh there's no really not a lot of room
for error because you're on TV. You're in that spotlight
and everybody's watching, and uh so, uh, my intense intensity
would would come up a level.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Not you two, Paul, when you were on TBS next
to Gordon Soley doing an interview, did did you must
have realized you're going nationwide and even worldwide? Was this
the big opportunity exposure whise you were looking for?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Absolutely? Absolutely absolutely that was that was you know, I
mean everywhere you went and how you really started to
feel that is when we started going to Ohio and
Cincinnati and and different places, you know, other than Georgia,
people would all I mean, you would get an applause
(20:35):
or you'd get a reaction that normally it takes uh,
you know, you build that every week or every night somewhere,
and it takes six to eight weeks before the people
really really get with you. And you could instantly go
into a state and they were they were with you already.
So that was my way of seeing how that National TV,
(20:58):
how powerful it was and what it could do. And
we had a heck of a crew in Georgia. I
mean we had one heck of a crew. I mean
we as good as it gets anywhere. So when you
have that kind of talent, Uh, it was good, it
was real good.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Well, you said earlier in your career, sometimes you'd be
in the dressing room and some of the guys just
didn't take it seriously. But I remember Georgia at that time,
everyone was working, they were working their butts off. And
you noticed that, did you when you walked into the
locker room. Did you have your head up and say, Man,
these guys they're taking it, they're doing it too.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yep? Sure did. And uh and that's what you know.
Only was all about too only on them. But you
know you may not have all the skills, yes, and
and have everything, and I didn't. I mean I was
going on on you know, energy, a lot of it.
I mean, just if you do something wrong, as long
as you're doing something. And that was my mentality, and
(21:50):
that that's what I did. And and and then watching
all the matches. I was always told that you should
watch every match every night, and you pick a little
bit of this from a person, a little bit of that,
and a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Uh,
and then you invent some stuff on your own. And
I was doing that now, and uh, I was far
(22:11):
from from as good as I was going to get,
but I was getting a lot better. And uh that
helped a lot. That Georgia helped an awful lot at
the time.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Did you have any idea that maybe Georgia or World
Championship Wrestling could go national. Was there any talk about
that or were you so focused on the on the
in ring performance that it really wasn't something you're even considering.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Uh. The world thing didn't happen til you know, it happened,
But it wasn't in the beginning. Yeah, until I got
a phone call one night and uh, Ermie Ladd had
called me and said that Vince McMahon wants to talk
to you. And I said, uh, I don't really want
to go there, you know, blah blah blah blah, And
(22:53):
I did. Now this, let me back up a little bit.
I was in the Fuller's territory and he was running
Penser Cool and parts of Alabama and stuff, and I
was with them Ron Fuller, and I had gotten a
call just before I left to go there, and I
(23:14):
was in Georgia and I went there and I didn't anyway,
I didn't call Vince mcmon that time, but then later
on I did get a call from him. I was
I can't remember where I was at. I was, I
don't remember what territory. But I'm probably confusing him because
I'm backing up here because I'm trying to think of
(23:34):
all this and but anyway, I got another call and
Ernie said that Senior wanted to talk to me. So
I did call him this time. And this was about
eight months before the opening of World Championship Rest and
he was in Miami and I called him and he said,
we want to have it. We want to bring you
(23:56):
in and told me what they were doing and this
and that whatever and h and during this time, uh,
I told him that you know only and uh, what's
his namett? Yeah, And they were pushing me to try
to sign a contract well doing this. This went on
for several months and then finally I called mister uh, uh,
(24:18):
I'm losing my train.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Of thought here, McMahon. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah. I called him back and said they want me
to sign this contract. And I said, if I'm coming
up with you, I can't, you know. He said, don't
sign it. And he said, I'll send you to Japan.
And I had an eight month period and I said, well,
you know, I got it. If I tell him this,
they're gonna want me to leave right then. And uh
and they did. And so I left and he sent
(24:43):
me Japan about full five times I think in the
eight months, and uh, that worked out really good for me.
And then I was there the first night Nowentown, Pennsylvania
when UH World Championship Wrestling started with the with the.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
W w F at the time, Paul was Vince mcman senior.
Aware that Vince was going to go national. I mean
from what you're saying here, he kind of did.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, yeah, but he only had a short time to live.
He was dying of cancer and he his son, you know, Vin,
he took over.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Then did you ever personally meet Vince Senior?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yes, I met him that night in Allentown and that's
when he handed over the rains to Vince.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Wow. Because you were one of the first stars that
was brought into the new WWF. You were you came
in in late eighty three, and that's when Vince headed
into Saint Louis and of course after that went into Minneapolis.
So you were going to be one. Did they tell
you you were going to be one of the cornerstones
of this new national push?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
He told me that you would be given an opportunity
and that you will be making money. He said, you'll
make more money than you've ever made before. And that
was good enough for me. And at that point is
when I took my body to another level. I could
really really see that something could really be made with it.
And thence like good bodies, you know. And I knew that,
(26:04):
and I molded myself and got myself, you know. I
dieted more, I say died that I just ate better food,
and I just I just had a plan and I
had just planned in my mind. And uh, for once
in my life, it worked and it really worked out
good for me.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I remember at the time, the WWF was not known
for work rate, and when you came in you had
a clear advantage over most of the other town in
that you were as hardcore n w A as it got,
and you went every night. So even if they didn't
plan on making you one of the corner storm Stones.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
You just became one, right and you said it just
the way. It was just like that. They couldn't deny me.
And I know that I never really watched New York
Wrestling or any of those guys. I heard of some
of the names, but I rarely never watched it because
I didn't like it and it wasn't my style of wrestling.
It wasn't like the w like Georgia Wrestling, you know,
(27:01):
the NWA wrestling. To me, it wasn't And I looked
at the new guys. I didn't really pay a lot
of attention to the older guys because you know, they
didn't do a lot and uh. I with guys that
uh that was in that whole class of of wrestlers,
you know, late seventies in the eighties, I uh, you know,
I would watch them and I said, I'm I'm gonna
(27:22):
be different than any other wrestler that's up there. And
that's when I just kicked it into the other gear.
My body. I've been working out so hard in the gym.
I mean I worked out every day hard. I didn't
do a lot of drinking or anything. So I molded
shaped and I got it to where I wanted it.
(27:42):
Vince saw it. He went, holy cal yeah, we got
something here and uh and then it it just worked out.
It just worked out, And it wasn't given to me.
I earned it. Every nickel that I ever made, every
spot that I ever was put in or that I earned,
It wasn't given to me. Was it friends with none
of the promoters. I didn't hob novel with him like
(28:03):
a lot of them do, and I just stayed away
from him. I didn't want to be a part of that.
I didn't want to be known for that well, if any.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
If anything, you did too well, because within a month
you're in the main events and you're going against Hulk Hogan.
This is early on in the Hogan Orndorf feud, and
Hogan had to win because Vince had the entire promotion
mentally on Hogan's back at the time. Did you what
was your initial impression of Hogan compared with you as
an inring talent.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I was better, Yeah, I think I could have the belt,
I could have made it mean more. I could have
He was more show business. He wasn't a bad worker,
but he to me, he wasn't as he just didn't
have the athletic skills to do what I could do,
and he didn't have my intensity, and he was strictly
going on basically the TV and interviews and the big push,
(28:55):
and he had the big push. And that's just the
way it was. But I said myself, buddy, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna show them that I can do
it just through my work, my work skills. And I
did it. I did it. And I know I did
it because I used to get people tell me all
the time, you know, hereful, and it getting to the
point that they were cheering me more than him, and
(29:17):
I knew that wasn't good.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
And they had Hogan beat you in this initial feud,
but to show how determined you were, Paul, that wasn't
the end. Nope, because you know a lot of guys
who Hogan dispensed of early on, they just kind of
fell by the wayside. Right, you came back, and you
came back quickly. Now they did it in a little
bit different manner. You did it with Piper, Roddy Piper
and Bob Orton, right, and you got into that tag
(29:40):
team situation and many memories of that.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, Well they were throttling to me, you know, I mean,
and I knew it. It was disheartening. But on the
other hand, I was making money, So I guess that's
what that's what kept me going, was to paycheck, you know,
because I was making huge amounts of money, and you know,
you're in this business. And I even said it was
to make money. And I had to really fall back
(30:06):
on that, and I really had to not dwell on
it too much because there's nothing I could do about it.
And so I knew that I had to keep doing
what I was doing and just keep looking at that
paycheck every week. And that's kind of what kept me going.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Well, did you ever try and take Vincment man aside
and say, you know, ask for you were? You were
in the top spot even after you lost to Hogan,
But did you.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Ever try and talk to him a little bit? Yeah,
But the way the way his contract was and everything,
I mean, and he was a man of his word,
he kept his work and uh, and he had everything
built around him. So I knew that really wasn't going
to change. So I guess second best would be okay.
And I was in that ring. I was, you know,
(30:50):
I was right up there behind him for a while,
you know, so you know, you just don't always work out.
You could be the best at something but still not
not be up there with him, and that's just why
it was. Well, yeah, that's not you know. I just
wish I had gotten that chance. You know. I think
I could have done as good or better. I really do,
because I could work with anybody and they would have
(31:12):
had a hell of a match. I don't care who
it was with. And I just think that the belt
could have meant more than what it did. You know,
I think the best workers should have the belt, but
nowadays it's just the opposite.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
When you started teaming with Hogan, did you know that
there was going to be another a turn coming and
that you would get another run against him.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
I kind of figured that, Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah,
I mean they'd be crazy if they didn't.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
They finally turned you against Hogan in a famous national
TV angle, and what followed is wrestling history that still
hasn't been topped to this day. Right, Incredible houses, incredible attendance,
incredible even for you payoffs. Sixty eight thousand people in
Toronto for just a normal show. It really solidified Vincent
(31:58):
in the number one position.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Did and made me feel good because we all were
making money. I mean, the guys on the first match,
we were making money, and I'm a team player pretty much,
and everybody was making the attitude of the guys and
the work and it just it was all good. I mean,
to me, that was one of the best times of
my life, if not the best. But I'll tell you
(32:22):
it was hard tough be on the road seven nights week,
you know. I was working seven night week away from
my family. They'd only give me two days a week,
I mean two days off every sixth week, you know,
and I had to bank for them, and he just
worked me in the ground. He just just wore me out.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Paul did Vince ever dangle the title in front of
you and say, you know, there's a chance that we
could put the championship on you.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
No. Now, They wanted to give me one of their
mother belts, and I didn't. I didn't even want it.
I didn't even want it. I'd be better off without it.
If I couldn't get, you know that one, then I
didn't want it. So I did.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
December fourteenth, nineteen eighty six, Hartford, Connecticut. You and hul
Cogan in the cage being taped for Saturday night's main event.
Incredible Matt, And of course that that famous finish where
you both went down simultaneously. Paul, I've heard that you
thought about maybe coming down first. Is that was that
rumor true?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah? Oh yeah, I thought about it. But I couldn't
do that. That wouldn't be the right thing to do.
And I tried to do the right thing. But I
had a lot of guys said, Paul, you ought to
go down first. You order drop down first. And I
could have. I could have very easily slipped and hit
the thing first.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
But they what would they have done, Paul? I mean
that would have changed the entire course of wrestling history.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Well, I'll tell you what. I'd probably do it now. Yeah,
they probably take the film and dub it and do
something to it. I don't know, or they've been smart,
they would have went along with it.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I think they would have went along with it. Vince
might have. You might have come back to the dressing room.
He might ask you to redo the finish. But I
could just tell talking.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
To you that you might.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
You might have just said that's I'm at home tonight.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I would have I mean I'll tell you what. I
had the opportunity to do it, but my loyalty. I
thought about it. I did think about it, but I
didn't think too long. You know, for them to trust
me to do that and then not to do it
wouldn't have been the right thing to do. And you
know I was friends with Terry and of course he
would have done it maybe, but uh yeah, I uh
(34:23):
I did. I did my job and I got paid
for it.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Well. At the time the NWA was disintegrating, was was
that part of the decision was that it looked like
Vince was going to be the only game in town.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Well, you know, these these other promoters had the opportunity
to work with Vince because I remember Vince when when
we started going into Georgia, and that I mean he
had the opportunity to work with him, or at least
that's what I heard, and they didn't do it. So
they they chose rather to go out of business than
because at that point we had all the best talent.
(34:54):
You still had some talent that was still with UNWA,
you know, but all in all, we had the best talent.
Because the guys go where the money is that simple.
And even though I gambled. I was a gambler. I
mean I don't gamble, but I like to go somewhere
where they need help, where you can be noticed. I mean,
once more fulfilling than to go to a territory that's
(35:16):
down and then six weeks or so you're starting to
get sellouts and the gates starting to come up and
everybody's starting to make a little money. That's what I
got satisfaction with. And it meant a lot to me
to go into a place that was half dead and
then to bring it back up, to build that and
to bring it back up, and that's what I like
to do.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Paul. Do you feel like you brought the others games
up as well? They'd see you in action in the
ring and feel like, you know, I've got to do
better because this guy is set in the standard.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I've heard that before. Whether I did, I don't know,
but I'll tell you this. If I was before you
and you were the main event, you had hell to follow.
I'm gonna tell you that. And I've seen a lot
of main events that were flat compared to my man
with somebody before the main event. So I like to
do that. I like to see him go out there
and top it, and a lot of times it didn't happen.
(36:07):
Many times it didn't happen because the main event was
on the semi main event.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Paul, you said earlier in your career, the promoters wouldn't
give you a pat on the back. Did Vince credit
you with what you were.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Doing at the time, Yes, absolutely, yeah. And Bill Wats
did too. Bill Wats did too. You know, he was
good about it and only did Only did too. Yeah.
Only let you know when you had a good one.
And you've got to give people praise sometimes, you know
you do, and I don't care what it is. You've
got to praise somebody that gives them, you know. And
(36:39):
those guys knew how to do it. I mean they,
I mean they were saying that, just say it because
they knew it was money for them. I mean they
knew that they had you know, it could be money
for all of us, not just me, but them and everybody.
I mean, everybody is a winner to a point. And
I wasn't the only guy that thought like that. I mean,
there was other guys out there. I ain't taking all
(37:01):
the credit by no mean, but I'll tell you what
I tried to do it every day, good night, not
want to be the best.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Well, one of the things that made you special, Paul,
was that you had the in ring ability like a
Bob Orton who was great in ring, but Bob really
didn't have it outside of the ring. You had it
in the ring and outside of the ring, which was
rare for the type of talent you had. Hogan didn't
have the n ring superstar, Billy Graham didn't have the
in ring, but you had it.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Well, it's called the total package, you know, for a
good football player. When you get drafted in the NFL
of whatever position you playing, you better be good at
it and one of the best. And you know, I
could run, I could catch a ball, and I could block.
And how many fullbacks in the NFL do you see
nowadays that can do all three and do them? Well,
(37:46):
there's only a couple anymore. A two full back and
that's the guy that blocks and pounds in there all
the time for the halfback. And that's the role I've played,
and I liked it a lot. Guys don't like the block.
It's not you go block a two hundred and seventy
eighty ninety pound guide, you know, and you weighed two
(38:06):
thirty five to thirty and you go in there and
do it. I mean what I tell you, I mean
to me, that's I like that. Man. I liked it,
and that that was my attitude. And I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed the contact and with the wrestling. I even
though there wasn't a lot of contact, there was contact,
but I enjoyed. I enjoyed just reliving my old football
(38:28):
days to a point. And I think that's what I
was doing because it just I could go twenty minutes,
I could go thirty minutes, forty minutes and stay the
same speed. And I had that ability to not tower
out and to keep going. And that's what made me different.
That's what made me different. Plus I had the body
to go with it. And look, you know, you know
(38:48):
I had to look had it. It was just a
God gifted thing that I took advantage of. God gave
it to me, and I took advantage of it.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Paul, When you injured your arm, did it was? Was
it a weightlifting accident?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
No? Yes, one of the guys was on something one
night which happened been the first time and I got
kicked under the chin and it went my neck back
so bad. That's what started it, That's what did it.
And I worked. I was in the main events with
Hogan a lot, and I worked when I should have
had the operation the next day. And just to show
(39:20):
you how stupid I was, how stupid I was, and
I'm mad at myself to this very day that I
would let that go on. And I didn't even tell nobody.
I never told Vince, never said nothing. And my arm
just started shrinking and I was in so much pain.
And I'm talking about pain now. I done chipped a
big bone out of my neck and didn't go get
surgery two years later, and then finally I got it done,
(39:43):
and the doctor just he shook his head and said,
my god. People don't know what I went through, the
pain I suffered, and then the stupidity that I had
for this business to not get it taken care of.
I could have been paralyzed every night that I went
out there, and I didn't slow up a bit like
a fool, because the money was the driving force. And
I made a bad mistake, bad stake.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Paul. Were you afraid? Did you sit in the locker
room and you know your neck on him? My arm
or were you beyond fear at the time.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
No, I wasn't beyond fear. I had a family, man,
I just bought a new home. And if you don't work,
you don't get paid. And that was the mentality I had,
and I guess I just kept going till I couldn't
go no more. And then finally I couldn't go no more.
And then that's when I kind of just walked out.
And that's what I didn't handle the right way, is
when I walked out from Vince, I just walked away,
(40:34):
and Paul.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Did did you walk away? Because the pain, you know,
sometimes if you're really hurt, the pain is so great
that you just can't even think straight.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, it was a lot of that. It was a
lot of that. And here I've been working for about
six seven months with this thing. Vince never knew it.
I didn't tell him, and I'd put elbow pads and
I'd pull him up over my arm to hide it,
to hide my arm shrinking because it got down to
light for teen inches and it went from around twenty
inches to fourteen inches. And I never really to this day,
(41:06):
I never really got tell Vince why I did that,
And he holds it against me. I don't think he
knows any difference.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
So by trying to be a great soldier, in essence,
destroyed your relationship with Vince.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, yes, that's exactly what I did.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Did you go to a doctorate during the six month
period and try and find out what was going on?
Or did you not even want to hear I did want.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
To hear it. But then I did finally go to
a doctor and he said you needed surgery, and I
didn't do it. I didn't do it. It was me.
It was my fault. And if I had gotten the
surgery back then it might have saved my arm and
all this damage. I mean, to this day, I can't
even curl five pounds. I mean, I got a serious
nerve damage here. And then I heard it two times
(41:48):
more after that, and the last one the doctor said, Paul,
you're a dub. You are doing and hear me, cannot
go back. You can be paralyzed. This is how serious
got I've had three next surgeries, my final column and
my neck is I got knots, bolt, screws, you name it,
I got it. It's just about as bad as humanly
(42:08):
possible without being in a wheelchair and I ont a
breathing machine. So but that was that old school, that
was my mentality, that was my stupidity, and that's where
I am today.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Paul. They put you with Sir Oliver Humperdink as your manager,
and I remember watching on TV and at the time
I really didn't know about your arm. Your physique seemed
to be changing a bit. But I remember just thinking,
how could you go from the main event with Hogan
really the number one talent in WWF and it seemed
like they were really pushing you down. Was it that
they were pushing you down or you just weren't able
(42:39):
to go?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I wasn't able to go. I wasn't able the mental
anguish I was going through, seeing my body and seeing
everything that I could do, tried to protect my neck
as much as I possibly could. I couldn't do it
no more. I just I just couldn't do it no more.
I just can't mean I got as serious. I don't
know if people people don't realize how serious that this was,
(43:02):
and did you know? And it's serious. I got to
figure it. I've had my neck operated on three times,
and that's pretty serious. We're talking about your Fidal column,
and that's I wasn't very smart, Paul.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I don't think people do realize because A don't. I've
been a fan for a long time and I watched wrestling,
and it wasn't until I started doing these interviews, and
every single legend from the seventies and eighties, they always
come back to the fact of pain, pain, pain, and
pain to this day and you going out there every
night at one hundred and twenty percent and continuing when
(43:34):
you should have stopped for a long term rest. I mean,
you've had it as severely as anyone, and I just
don't think people can understand it.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, and another thing too, when I was in New
York that I had the opportunity to do the Rambo movie.
They flew me to California to meet Stallone. I had
about four different movie parts, and he also told me
that if you do this, you'll be the next Rocky
and told Vince about it, and he wouldn't let me go.
He taught me out of it. And I'd only been
(44:05):
gone for six weeks with a two week extension to
do the movie in Mexico, and that would have put
me It would have given me some rest and I
wouldn't have got hurt, possibly because that happened right after
that and nowadays he lets guys do movie parts and
this and that. But you see, I didn't do that
because I felt obligated to him and if I had to.
(44:27):
If I made any more mistake in my life, it
was that I didn't go do that movie with Stallone.
He told me, he said, you have a career in
the movie. And I look back on that and then
it brings tears to my eyes sometimes that I relived this,
and I talk about it every now and then. But
I just wish I had done that movie because that
would have put me at a whole new level. That
(44:47):
would have put me beyond Hogan or anybody else because
the movies, I've never seen anybody hunt of the way
that I am, with all that aggression and stuff, and
that could control it. It was controlled aggression. And I mean,
he's alone liked me. I met his brother, a met
his wife, met him all and did a couple of
shoots different things, and my god, he flipping it seem like, oh,
(45:10):
you're that he was bullshiting me. I don't know, but
I really believe that. I mean, he told me when
I got through doing the thing, he said, you got
the part. He said, I'll have a people call you
for the flight arrangements, and this and that, and I
told Vince about it. He holed and this. I didn't
do it, Paul.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
A lot of wrestlers have tried to do movies, but
most of them there's always this comedic edge to it.
Paul Cogan a comedy, even the rock Dwayne Johnson Today comedy.
There was nothing comedic about Paul Orndorf. You would have
been something that the movies had never seen before coming
out of wrestling.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
I know it. See I know it, and I had
that aggression that I could do it without doing it.
You know what I'm saying, Oh yeah, looks on your face.
Expression has a lot to do with what you're doing
when it comes to the movies, and wrestling is a
mirror of acting. And that's what I could have done.
God knows what that would have done. See, Vince knew
that if I got into it, that I wouldn't be
(46:04):
there with him, And that's that's my thinking, And that's
exactly what would have happened, because I would have done
it no more. I would have stuck with it. I
would have. Of course I might have wrestled something, but
I think it would have opened some doors for me
that would have been unbelievable. The thing is, I don't
know because I didn't try it and I didn't get
the opportunity. Yeah, I could have quit, but then what
(46:25):
And I didn't think I had enough to know that
if I would have done that movie, that would have
opened up so many doors, so many places. And you know,
I didn't know I didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Well when he told you know, did your heart drop
or did you expect it?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
I expected it, and I guess when he told me
know that I'd be taken care of forever pretty much.
And he told me that that I would be that
you'll never have to get another job, but the way
I left, But yet he don't know all the reasons. See,
he didn't, and that bothers me that he really didn't
know why I did it the way I did it.
You know, everybody's different, and my mentality on a hot tipper,
(47:01):
and a lot of times I don't think when I
do something, I do it it is not always right.
You're going to ask my wife's that. And I did
what I did, and I'm living with it. It's over, Paul.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
It's been a real pleasure talking with you. I wanted
to discuss the first half of your career. You know,
I would compare what happened to you to let's say,
if Muhammad Ali and boxing had broken his hand and
had continued to fight with a broken hand. I mean,
I think I've heard you say that you weren't one
of the top guys that you were. What have you
called yourself a workhorse in wrestling? Yes, And I really
don't see it that way, because I see you as
(47:33):
being one of the top hand or fifteen stars in
the history of the sport. Very rare that someone had
the outside the ring charisma you had and the in
ring performance. Jimmy Snook a great in the ring, but
outside the ring couldn't cut an interview to save his life,
and you had both sides. It's very rare. And I
remember even at that time thinking, boy, I hope that
Paul doesn't get pushed aside when they've teamed you with
(47:55):
Sir Oliver Humperdink And indeed that's what happened, and difficult,
difficult time in wrestling.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
I would say, yeah, but that you know, when you
get a bunch of low lives and people with no class.
People would not even an eye for athletic ability. People
but paid the price on a football field, that paid
the price in the ring every night, got craffic payoffs,
did everything he was supposed to do. May not liked it,
but I did everything with somebody that I've ever been
(48:22):
asked to do. I never ever said I'm not doing
a job, never ever, ever. I always did it. Now,
I might give you some crap about it, but I
did it.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
And it was a mistake though, wasn't it. Yeah, Yeah,
See Hogan didn't do that.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
No, he sure didn't. He wouldn't do a job, and
because he couldn't afford to. You see, he couldn't afford
to do a job whereas I could. And they knew it,
because I could do a job one night, still draw
a house the next night, and the next time I
came back to the house I did the job in
I still still drew a house.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
So you know, well, do you wish he'd called their bluff?
Do you wish he had called their bluff and just said,
you know what, I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
That's right. I wish I had a see I think
you had the.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Rowing power that they would have had to at some
point gone along with you.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, they would have because listen, I know, listen, Once
you've been in this business a while, you know what's
good for you, what can draw for you, and who
you're gonna work with, and who you can draw with.
When they put you with a piece of shit and
then you were supposed to draw with a piece of shit,
that means I have to work three times as hard
to make up for that. And that's where their mentality
(49:24):
wasn't that good. They thought they knew it all. The
only reason they have what they had is because they
owned the place and they could do it. But they
weren't really smart about it. And they played favorite. They
all do, everybody does, and that's okay. But whenever you
got a guy that can go out and bust his
ass like at every daygumbe night of the week and
do it and do it night after night, year after year,
(49:46):
you know, I guess what happens is they get afraid
of you.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Paul. What was it about you that you weren't one
of their favorites? I would think having someone like you
on the roster. Was it that you just gave everything
you had and you never pushed back.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah, I didn't push back as much as I should have.
I should have pushed back more. But you know, when
somebody's when somebody's writing your paycheck, you know you gotta
be careful. And I did just enough. And I'll tell
you if following Dorf was ever reborn again or ever
came back out there, he sure wouldn't do some things
he'd done. I can tell you that much.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yeah, it's really amazing. A lot of people say, Paul,
has you know you were criticized in two thousand and
five at the Hall of Fame induction because you weren't,
you know, all into it with Hogan and clapping. But
here you were giving up yourself, and yet you paid
the price for it. I think that there's a little
bit of a perception problem. You went along with everything
Vince wanted to do. It gave up your movie opportunity,
(50:42):
and yet you're the bad guy. Yep, such his life, Paul.
It's been a real pleasure here. I've really enjoyed talking
to you. I've wanted to talk to you for a
long time. You're one of my heroes in wrestling, and
heroes of a lot of our listeners because I've been
talking about having you on, and everyone's like, when's Paul
going to be on? And now Paul's been on, and Paul,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
You're quite welcome. Anytime we'll do it again.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Talk to you soon, Paul, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Okay, buddy, bye bye bye
Fifty seven Talk dot Com. Gary Cubetta back to Scottsdale,
Arizona with me today the great Paul Orndorf from Georgia. Paul,
pleasure to have you with us.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Thank you, guys, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Well, many people and that might not realize this, but
you started off in pro football. You played with the
Saints and the Chiefs, and then you went to the
World Football League with the Jacksonville Sharks in nineteen seventy five.
What position? What position did you play?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I was a full back. I should have been a linebacker,
but they, you know, fall back because I could block.
I was a good blocker and if they wanted three yards,
they got three yards. And I had good hands and
but my skill really with blocking. I used to like
the block and the w.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
The WFL L only lasted two years. You played in
WFL two. They folded midway through the season. Do you
have any memories of that?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Well, not really. It just you know, I don't even
know why I did it. My heart really wasn't in it.
I just did it for the money. And you can't
do something and for the for the money. You got
to do it for the love and That's why I
did so well in wrestling, because I loved it and
I had a passion for it. I knew that i'd
make it one day. I'd make it big if i'd
(01:12):
gotten it, you know, if I got the chance. And uh,
I got the chance.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I remember, back in the late seventies, you went into
the mid Atlantic territory, which was red hot at the time.
You were instantly on top or close to being on top.
Is there a reason you were able to adjust so quickly?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well? At that time, I was still learning. I was
up in Kansas City and I'd only been in the business,
I don't know, maybe eight months something like that, and
I went to Kansas and I was there, and uh,
that's when George got was at Saint Louis the big Arena,
(01:50):
and you know, every every week or every month. I
think they had a great big show in Saint Louis
at the I believe it was the Schechterdome, I'm not
sure sure about that, but the bigg arena there, and
they would bring in every month. They would bring in
really big, big names. And George Scott was there and
(02:10):
after my match, he came up to me and asked
me if I'd like to come to Charlotte, and uh
I said, yeah, but I just got here. I mean
I'd only been there, like I said, two two or
three weeks, and uh he said I could take care
of that, and uh I was a little bit. Uh
I didn't know if I should do that because you know,
(02:31):
I uh I was with them and I didn't want
to go against my word or or anything, because uh
I stuck by my word. And uh he said it
would be fine, and they talked to him, and uh
they said it would be okay. So I went to
Charlotte and I was there for about a year and
they teamed me up with Jimmy Snooker, and uh that
(02:54):
was one of the best times I ever had as
far as the learning process of this of the business.
And it turned out well for me. And like I said,
I was real green. I mean I was greener than heck.
But being with Jimmy, he you know, he would help
me and I'd be every night, you know, I would
(03:15):
learn something you know, new or different, and I always,
you know, I was a lucky sponge when it came
to that. It's something that you have to do over
and over and over and over for like five six
years before you really really get to know your way
around in the ring, and that's how that happens.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, did you know at the time that you were
going to be one of the premier talents in the
history of professional wrestling? I mean you're teaming with Jimmy Snooker,
who was also one of the all time great Could
you tell that this was just right for you?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Oh? Yeah, I mean I knew that. You know, you
have to work with the best to be the best,
and you have to get that opportunity. And you know,
I had, like I said, I had the passion. Passion
was there. There wasn't It wasn't a problem with that.
I mean, that's what I had going for me is
that I tried so hard and wanted to be you know,
(04:08):
I wanted to be good at it, wanted to be
great at it.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
When you were in mid Atlantic, what type of feedback
did you get from the promotion. Were they telling you, hey, Paul,
this is for you, You're going to be big time?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, I don't know if they tell you that. I
don't think they tell you that, But you know, you
get feedback, and most of the time it ain't good,
you know, a lot of times. They don't tend to
do that that much. That's a control thing. They want
to have control over you, and I, uh, nobody's ever
had control over me, and uh, it wasn't going to
(04:39):
start in this business neither, so, Paul.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
They were very disciplined at that time and keeping the
talent mentally down so that they could the payoffs could
be equally down. So you weren't getting any type of
positive feedback. Let's say, in the world of football, if
your first round draft choice, they're constantly patting you on
the back. Different here, right, totally different.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Whether that's the difference between class and no class. And
most of these promoters had no class, very few of them.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Did you realize early on that payoff wise the business
was going to be difficult? Well, I mean we've spoken
to a lot of guys here from the seventies and
the eighties, a lot of stars, a lot of a
lot of legends, and they've all said that it was
just extraordinary to go out and see a full house
and then the payoff would come, oh yeah, and disappointing.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
That's why I don't I don't really like promoters. That's
why I never got close to too many of them.
I didn't, uh and I wasn't about to kiss that
of them's ass and I didn't And uh yeah, I
uh yeah, absolutely that was it. I mean, And the
and the more you know that you're in a position
that you helped to draw that sellout crowd and you
(05:43):
busted your butt and you bled and you know, you
traveled all that miles and get a payoff, that's a
damn joke. It pissed me off all the time. And
I'd get you know, I'd get to the point that
that I couldn't uh, I couldn't take it anymore. So
I I'd usually just you know, I'd either get fired
or I'd quit. So it didn't matter to me.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Well, were there guys within the promotion, let's say in
mid Atlantic, for example, Rick Flair or Blackjack Mulligan that
the promotion took care of or was it universal across
the board where they'd hold people down.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
No, they took care of certain people. You had a
certain amount of ass kissers and they would kiss ask.
I mean, it was so obvious, and they did, you know,
And then you see a lot of people that really
their talents weren't that good and you can judge. I mean,
you know, you could tell by the responses of the
people and it wasn't there and they hold you back,
(06:40):
and you could tell. It was very obvious. Once you've
been in it a while, you see it. And then
you had a lot of the other say old timers
and stuff, and some of them would open up to
you and you know, teach you that or tell you
things that you just you figure out. You know, when
you pay off so bad they've alway said, you know,
(07:01):
you tell everything depends on your payoff. And if you're
happy what you're getting, then you're happier. If you're not,
then you move on. And I moved on a lot,
you wit a lot eight I think about eight or
ten times in my career I moved on.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You went down to Southeastern Championship Wrestling, teamed with Dick Slater,
won the Southeastern Tag Team Championship Jimmy Golden in Norvelle, Austin.
Was it when you went down that's in the Alabama area?
Was that the same situation as mid Atlantic? We were
you hoping to find a greener pasture or did you
find the same type of pastures?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Well, that's that way everywhere but I had a guarantee,
you know, I got a certain amount of money. I
would guarantee that every week, and the trips were a
lot shorter. And Dick Slater was one of the best
heels in the business period, and we got along great.
He helped me a lot. Again. You know, there was
you anytime you get to work with people like the
(07:57):
Slaters and the Snookers and so on and so on.
These guys were you know, they were proven commodities. They
proved that they could draw money, and they knew how
to draw money. And that's what I was learning how
to do, is how to And like I said, when
you work with this kind of talent the best, and
you're bound to take it in and I did. And
(08:19):
you work seven nights a week and sometimes twice on Sunday.
That's what's missing in the in the wrestling game now
is that after these guys don't they don't really go anywhere.
There's nowhere for them to go. So they have a
hard time learning. All they see is you know, jumping
off the top rope, for coming out of the ceiling
and doing stuff like that, and all it is is
(08:41):
a cover up for them not knowing how to work,
and there's an art to it, and there's an art
to it that very few people have it nowadays, very few,
if any, that really have that art to fishing people off.
And I just seem to have a knack for it.
The way I looked my body, you know, my look,
I had everything and that's why I did so good.
(09:03):
So it's kind of like a racehorse, you know, you
get one that wins the Preakness there. You know, look
how many racehors as there is, and only one of
them wins that race. So there's few, you know, people
out there that really really was good at it.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, you compare back then to today. You played pro
ball in nineteen seventy five mid Atlantic around seventy eight
seventy nine, you're in Southeastern that's four years of preparation.
Very little, a very small percentage of the country even
has heard of Paul Oorendorff. Today, Like you said, they
just throw guys right into the main events and the
results are obvious. There are no Paul Orndorf.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
No, No, not even close. There really wasn't back then
that much simply because of my style. I said that,
you know, when I went to these places, I said
to myself, I want to be different than everybody else,
and I just took advantage of a god gifted talent.
And I had aggression, I had intimidation. I had the body,
and I was willing to do whatever it took for
(10:00):
that to get across into that. And it took a while,
and every you know, every night I was out in
the ring, I was just kept adding to my repertoire
and kept adding and trying and experimenting, and finally I
got it all together. You know, after about seven years,
six seven eight years, I started getting it all together
and from then on I couldn't be denied.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Well, you started with Mid South. What were your initial
impressions of the operation in Louisiana, Mississippi.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Well, I learned more there than anywhere because I was
there off and on for about a four or five
year period. And Bill Watts, you know, he was a
hard ass. He you know, he would all the time
get all me and he was like a coach to me.
A lot of people didn't care for him, and I had,
you know, I had my disagreements with him. I quit
(10:50):
and I got fired with him, but I still any
time I wanted to go back there. I had an
open door, and I was taught a lot, and I
worked with her lad a lot, even back then when
Ernie was you know, he was all crippled up and everything.
But he just gave me a big chance. And he
gave me my biggest chance that I ever had, Ernie.
(11:11):
And you know, Ernie was the booker. Of course, Bill
was the owner, and he was a hands on owner.
And uh, but I got along with Bill good. I mean,
we got along good, and I enjoyed it. You know,
a lot of hard work though, and and you know,
we we started with the crew he had. We had
a lot of guys that wanted to work and didn't
(11:32):
matter about how many miles you travel. I mean I
traveled five five hundred miles, six hundred miles one way
some night. And uh and then a lot of times
I got a you know, fifty dollars payoff and there's
seventy five dollar payoff. And you have to be dedicated, totally,
one hundred percent dedicated. And a lot of a lot
of the guys, you know, I ain't running them down,
(11:55):
but a lot of them weren't dedicated. All they cared
about is getting a paycheck, and say they were wrestling
Alerta and had a sick pack of beer every night,
and they were happy, and I wasn't happy. I wanted
to make money and I felt like I was in
an opportunity that I could make money. And eventually I did.
(12:15):
And the more I learned, and uh, the more I
did and the more I listened, it all started coming together.
So there was a plan in my mind. I had
a plan without a plan or nothing. If you just
depend on you just walking out there and thinking you're
going to be a star and everything, then you won't
get well. I couldn't do it. I got pride in
(12:35):
what I do and I took a lot of pride
in it, a lot of pride. And when I had
a bad match or something, I didn't like that and
I'd stay, well, it ain't gonna happen in the morn night,
and uh, I got better and a lot of times
I had to work harder than the guy that I
was with, you know, because like I said, some of
them could have cared less. How much well, I ain't
(12:56):
gonna say that. They still wanted to make money, but
they didn't do the extra that you need and you
need to give that one hundred percent. I remember Eddie
Graham told me, he said, when you go out there
every night, you give your best because those people out
there are buying a ticket and they're hard working people,
and give them their money's work. And that always stuck
from me from day one, and I tried to do that.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Well, we we've been in the process of interviewing Cowboy
Bill Watson. He told me we interviewed him yesterday morning
and he said, Paul Orndorf, when it came to work,
ethic and intensity was second to none. And you know
he credited you with being a huge help to Mid
South in the early days.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Well, it's true, you know, that's the way I was.
And I think my name and my reputation got out
there and more people were you know, I had a
place to go anytime I wanted to, just like Bob
Wharton Sr. Told me. He like I said, he said,
if you learn how to work, they can't deny you.
And he was right, they couldn't deny you. And I
(13:57):
didn't get denied. Of course, I burnt Regie. You know,
I was pretty good at burning bridges because I said
to myself, I'll never go back there, So I didn't
give a hack, so I didn't.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Paul, do you feel like you burned bridges for justifiable
reasons in retrospect?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
No, I mean, yeah, I didn't handle things the right
way a lot of time. I you know, there was
there should be a business side and not everything is
my way. And of course you learn that life. And
I'm almost sixty years old now and I finally realize that,
so you know, it's best not to unless you're just
(14:32):
so overwhelmed in doing it. Then you got to do
what you gotta do. But I think a lot of
it had to do with just not you know, talking
things over and whenever I felt like I was being
mistreated is when I did that. And if I thought
I was being mistreated, and they could kiss my butt,
you know. And that's the way I felt about it.
(14:53):
And I think that a lot of us guys, many
of them, did get mistreated, you know, first of all,
and insult when it comes to some of your payoffs. See,
that's being mistreated to me. And when I saw that
some of the payoffs for the hard work that I
was trying to do and a lot of guys were doing,
and you get the silly payoffs fifteen dollars twenty dollars.
(15:15):
Sometimes that's garbage. They're teating there like garbage, So they
need to be treated the same way.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And that's what I did to see Paul, you say that,
you know, maybe you handle things incorrectly, but people have
to realize you're giving up your body every night. You're
never the same after you get out of a match.
So this must have been weighing on your mind. You know,
even at that young age, you're starting to feel the
pain of time and not to be paid properly. It's
a tough thing. It's a tough thing for a young
guy to handle.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
That's right, it was. And they didn't care. All they
cared about was how big the crowd was and how
much money they could have of them and take when
you know, all they cared about is how they could
figure in they that you make less. And that's what
it was an insult sometimes and that right insult because
they always at their money no matter what, and a
(16:01):
lot of times we did.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Paul, did you have questions about the NWA early on
how they had carved up the United States? It wasn't competitive?
Did you think you know, this isn't really fair?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
No, not really. Yeah, I never thought of it like that.
I mean, they were dominant. I mean they were the one,
and quite frankly, they were the best. There's no doubt
about it. The best workers that been in this business
came right out of Tampa, Florida, and there's a ton
of them. And when I broke in, it was buddy,
it was tough getting in there. Now, you just you know,
(16:34):
they just didn't open the doors in there. I mean
I went through hell for about eight months, and I
mean hell. And I've been to a lot of the
pro camps in college, in high school and junior high
school football, and it was tougher than all them. I mean,
holy hell, I would my god. And that's I mean,
that is what really branded it. By working hard and
(16:56):
you've earned what got and I did that, but I
wasn't getting for what I did.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Paul, you stuck with the business though many people have
told me that, yes, you know, you and other stars
at the time were cheated. Why did you stick with it?
You didn't like the alternatives of a of a non
athletic career, or did you think maybe this could get
better if I keep you know, up the work ethic,
the intensity.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Well That was the whole thing that that kept me going.
It was that if I had known anything else that
it wouldn't I don't know if I would have stayed
in it, and I surely wouldn't have worked as hard
as I did, probably, But no, I always thought that
it would get better and that I would be one
(17:40):
of the ones that's that made it and got paid
for it. Oh that was my guiding life.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Well, you got a big national break in nineteen eighty
two when you went into Georgia Championship Wrestling because it
was televised on TBS, and most of the country, including myself,
finally got to see you. And you were impressive. You
were very impressive at the time. You had really put
your entire game together, almost entire game together, right, Yeah,
and you had big feuds with buzz Sawyer, Nature Boy,
(18:07):
Rick Flair, the Super Destroyer. In fact, I remember you
were on the very first main event on TV the
week that Georgia Championship Wrestling changed its name to World
Championship Wrestling. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yes, I don't remember the match, but I do remember
that when we did that.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You wrestled the Super Destroyer.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yes, yeah, what what was it?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Like with Jim Barnett and Ole Anderson in Georgia.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I liked him. They you know, Jim Barnett was was
good with the money or as good as it can get,
and I liked only you know, he was fake guy.
He was right up front guy. And you know, if
you said you did stuff good, he'd tell you, and
if you didn't, he'd tell you. So I had no
problems with at all, and I liked you. So we
(18:52):
got along good. And he was that type. He had
that kind of mentality as I did too. You know,
his kind of work was nothing real fancy, but it
was hard, aggressive and you know, maybe not to my speed,
but he was he We were similar in some ways.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Well, I remember even during TV matches, you you were
full game on. Was there an exhaustion that started to
set in with you or or you just passed that
you just wanted the business so bad and this was
an opportunity at national television that you didn't care.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
That's exactly what you did. That's what I did. I mean,
you get to show your stuff when you're on TV
and you have a you just don't have bad night
on days on TV, whatever it may be. That's when
you've got to show your stuff and you have a
short amount of time to do it in and you
absolutely have to have everything, you know, hitting on all cylinders,
(19:46):
and uh there's no really not a lot of room
for error because you're on TV. You're in that spotlight
and everybody's watching, and uh so, uh, my intense intensity
would would come up a level.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Not you two, Paul, when you were on TBS next
to Gordon Soley doing an interview, did did you must
have realized you're going nationwide and even worldwide? Was this
the big opportunity exposure whise you were looking for?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Absolutely? Absolutely absolutely that was that was you know, I
mean everywhere you went and how you really started to
feel that is when we started going to Ohio and
Cincinnati and and different places, you know, other than Georgia,
people would all I mean, you would get an applause
(20:35):
or you'd get a reaction that normally it takes uh,
you know, you build that every week or every night somewhere,
and it takes six to eight weeks before the people
really really get with you. And you could instantly go
into a state and they were they were with you already.
So that was my way of seeing how that National TV,
(20:58):
how powerful it was and what it could do. And
we had a heck of a crew in Georgia. I
mean we had one heck of a crew. I mean
we as good as it gets anywhere. So when you
have that kind of talent, Uh, it was good, it
was real good.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Well, you said earlier in your career, sometimes you'd be
in the dressing room and some of the guys just
didn't take it seriously. But I remember Georgia at that time,
everyone was working, they were working their butts off. And
you noticed that, did you when you walked into the
locker room. Did you have your head up and say, Man,
these guys they're taking it, they're doing it too.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yep? Sure did. And uh and that's what you know.
Only was all about too only on them. But you
know you may not have all the skills, yes, and
and have everything, and I didn't. I mean I was
going on on you know, energy, a lot of it.
I mean, just if you do something wrong, as long
as you're doing something. And that was my mentality, and
(21:50):
that that's what I did. And and and then watching
all the matches. I was always told that you should
watch every match every night, and you pick a little
bit of this from a person, a little bit of that,
and a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Uh,
and then you invent some stuff on your own. And
I was doing that now, and uh, I was far
(22:11):
from from as good as I was going to get,
but I was getting a lot better. And uh that
helped a lot. That Georgia helped an awful lot at
the time.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Did you have any idea that maybe Georgia or World
Championship Wrestling could go national. Was there any talk about
that or were you so focused on the on the
in ring performance that it really wasn't something you're even considering.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Uh. The world thing didn't happen til you know, it happened,
But it wasn't in the beginning. Yeah, until I got
a phone call one night and uh, Ermie Ladd had
called me and said that Vince McMahon wants to talk
to you. And I said, uh, I don't really want
to go there, you know, blah blah blah blah, And
(22:53):
I did. Now this, let me back up a little bit.
I was in the Fuller's territory and he was running
Penser Cool and parts of Alabama and stuff, and I
was with them Ron Fuller, and I had gotten a
call just before I left to go there, and I
(23:14):
was in Georgia and I went there and I didn't anyway,
I didn't call Vince mcmon that time, but then later
on I did get a call from him. I was
I can't remember where I was at. I was, I
don't remember what territory. But I'm probably confusing him because
I'm backing up here because I'm trying to think of
(23:34):
all this and but anyway, I got another call and
Ernie said that Senior wanted to talk to me. So
I did call him this time. And this was about
eight months before the opening of World Championship Rest and
he was in Miami and I called him and he said,
we want to have it. We want to bring you
(23:56):
in and told me what they were doing and this
and that whatever and h and during this time, uh,
I told him that you know only and uh, what's
his namett? Yeah, And they were pushing me to try
to sign a contract well doing this. This went on
for several months and then finally I called mister uh, uh,
(24:18):
I'm losing my train.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Of thought here, McMahon. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah. I called him back and said they want me
to sign this contract. And I said, if I'm coming
up with you, I can't, you know. He said, don't
sign it. And he said, I'll send you to Japan.
And I had an eight month period and I said, well,
you know, I got it. If I tell him this,
they're gonna want me to leave right then. And uh
and they did. And so I left and he sent
(24:43):
me Japan about full five times I think in the
eight months, and uh, that worked out really good for me.
And then I was there the first night Nowentown, Pennsylvania
when UH World Championship Wrestling started with the with the.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
W w F at the time, Paul was Vince mcman senior.
Aware that Vince was going to go national. I mean
from what you're saying here, he kind of did.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, yeah, but he only had a short time to live.
He was dying of cancer and he his son, you know, Vin,
he took over.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Then did you ever personally meet Vince Senior?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yes, I met him that night in Allentown and that's
when he handed over the rains to Vince.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Wow. Because you were one of the first stars that
was brought into the new WWF. You were you came
in in late eighty three, and that's when Vince headed
into Saint Louis and of course after that went into Minneapolis.
So you were going to be one. Did they tell
you you were going to be one of the cornerstones
of this new national push?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
He told me that you would be given an opportunity
and that you will be making money. He said, you'll
make more money than you've ever made before. And that
was good enough for me. And at that point is
when I took my body to another level. I could
really really see that something could really be made with it.
And thence like good bodies, you know. And I knew that,
(26:04):
and I molded myself and got myself, you know. I
dieted more, I say died that I just ate better food,
and I just I just had a plan and I
had just planned in my mind. And uh, for once
in my life, it worked and it really worked out
good for me.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I remember at the time, the WWF was not known
for work rate, and when you came in you had
a clear advantage over most of the other town in
that you were as hardcore n w A as it got,
and you went every night. So even if they didn't
plan on making you one of the corner storm Stones.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
You just became one, right and you said it just
the way. It was just like that. They couldn't deny me.
And I know that I never really watched New York
Wrestling or any of those guys. I heard of some
of the names, but I rarely never watched it because
I didn't like it and it wasn't my style of wrestling.
It wasn't like the w like Georgia Wrestling, you know,
(27:01):
the NWA wrestling. To me, it wasn't And I looked
at the new guys. I didn't really pay a lot
of attention to the older guys because you know, they
didn't do a lot and uh. I with guys that
uh that was in that whole class of of wrestlers,
you know, late seventies in the eighties, I uh, you know,
I would watch them and I said, I'm I'm gonna
(27:22):
be different than any other wrestler that's up there. And
that's when I just kicked it into the other gear.
My body. I've been working out so hard in the gym.
I mean I worked out every day hard. I didn't
do a lot of drinking or anything. So I molded
shaped and I got it to where I wanted it.
(27:42):
Vince saw it. He went, holy cal yeah, we got
something here and uh and then it it just worked out.
It just worked out, And it wasn't given to me.
I earned it. Every nickel that I ever made, every
spot that I ever was put in or that I earned,
It wasn't given to me. Was it friends with none
of the promoters. I didn't hob novel with him like
(28:03):
a lot of them do, and I just stayed away
from him. I didn't want to be a part of that.
I didn't want to be known for that well, if any.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
If anything, you did too well, because within a month
you're in the main events and you're going against Hulk Hogan.
This is early on in the Hogan Orndorf feud, and
Hogan had to win because Vince had the entire promotion
mentally on Hogan's back at the time. Did you what
was your initial impression of Hogan compared with you as
an inring talent.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I was better, Yeah, I think I could have the belt,
I could have made it mean more. I could have
He was more show business. He wasn't a bad worker,
but he to me, he wasn't as he just didn't
have the athletic skills to do what I could do,
and he didn't have my intensity, and he was strictly
going on basically the TV and interviews and the big push,
(28:55):
and he had the big push. And that's just the
way it was. But I said myself, buddy, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna show them that I can do
it just through my work, my work skills. And I
did it. I did it. And I know I did
it because I used to get people tell me all
the time, you know, hereful, and it getting to the
point that they were cheering me more than him, and
(29:17):
I knew that wasn't good.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
And they had Hogan beat you in this initial feud,
but to show how determined you were, Paul, that wasn't
the end. Nope, because you know a lot of guys
who Hogan dispensed of early on, they just kind of
fell by the wayside. Right, you came back, and you
came back quickly. Now they did it in a little
bit different manner. You did it with Piper, Roddy Piper
and Bob Orton, right, and you got into that tag
(29:40):
team situation and many memories of that.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, Well they were throttling to me, you know, I mean,
and I knew it. It was disheartening. But on the
other hand, I was making money, So I guess that's
what that's what kept me going, was to paycheck, you know,
because I was making huge amounts of money, and you know,
you're in this business. And I even said it was
to make money. And I had to really fall back
(30:06):
on that, and I really had to not dwell on
it too much because there's nothing I could do about it.
And so I knew that I had to keep doing
what I was doing and just keep looking at that
paycheck every week. And that's kind of what kept me going.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Well, did you ever try and take Vincment man aside
and say, you know, ask for you were? You were
in the top spot even after you lost to Hogan,
But did you.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Ever try and talk to him a little bit? Yeah,
But the way the way his contract was and everything,
I mean, and he was a man of his word,
he kept his work and uh, and he had everything
built around him. So I knew that really wasn't going
to change. So I guess second best would be okay.
And I was in that ring. I was, you know,
(30:50):
I was right up there behind him for a while,
you know, so you know, you just don't always work out.
You could be the best at something but still not
not be up there with him, and that's just why
it was. Well, yeah, that's not you know. I just
wish I had gotten that chance. You know. I think
I could have done as good or better. I really do,
because I could work with anybody and they would have
(31:12):
had a hell of a match. I don't care who
it was with. And I just think that the belt
could have meant more than what it did. You know,
I think the best workers should have the belt, but
nowadays it's just the opposite.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
When you started teaming with Hogan, did you know that
there was going to be another a turn coming and
that you would get another run against him.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
I kind of figured that, Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah,
I mean they'd be crazy if they didn't.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
They finally turned you against Hogan in a famous national
TV angle, and what followed is wrestling history that still
hasn't been topped to this day. Right, Incredible houses, incredible attendance,
incredible even for you payoffs. Sixty eight thousand people in
Toronto for just a normal show. It really solidified Vincent
(31:58):
in the number one position.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Did and made me feel good because we all were
making money. I mean, the guys on the first match,
we were making money, and I'm a team player pretty much,
and everybody was making the attitude of the guys and
the work and it just it was all good. I mean,
to me, that was one of the best times of
my life, if not the best. But I'll tell you
(32:22):
it was hard tough be on the road seven nights week,
you know. I was working seven night week away from
my family. They'd only give me two days a week,
I mean two days off every sixth week, you know,
and I had to bank for them, and he just
worked me in the ground. He just just wore me out.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Paul did Vince ever dangle the title in front of
you and say, you know, there's a chance that we
could put the championship on you.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
No. Now, They wanted to give me one of their
mother belts, and I didn't. I didn't even want it.
I didn't even want it. I'd be better off without it.
If I couldn't get, you know that one, then I
didn't want it. So I did.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
December fourteenth, nineteen eighty six, Hartford, Connecticut. You and hul
Cogan in the cage being taped for Saturday night's main event.
Incredible Matt, And of course that that famous finish where
you both went down simultaneously. Paul, I've heard that you
thought about maybe coming down first. Is that was that
rumor true?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah? Oh yeah, I thought about it. But I couldn't
do that. That wouldn't be the right thing to do.
And I tried to do the right thing. But I
had a lot of guys said, Paul, you ought to
go down first. You order drop down first. And I
could have. I could have very easily slipped and hit
the thing first.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
But they what would they have done, Paul? I mean
that would have changed the entire course of wrestling history.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Well, I'll tell you what. I'd probably do it now. Yeah,
they probably take the film and dub it and do
something to it. I don't know, or they've been smart,
they would have went along with it.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I think they would have went along with it. Vince
might have. You might have come back to the dressing room.
He might ask you to redo the finish. But I
could just tell talking.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
To you that you might.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
You might have just said that's I'm at home tonight.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I would have I mean I'll tell you what. I
had the opportunity to do it, but my loyalty. I
thought about it. I did think about it, but I
didn't think too long. You know, for them to trust
me to do that and then not to do it
wouldn't have been the right thing to do. And you
know I was friends with Terry and of course he
would have done it maybe, but uh yeah, I uh
(34:23):
I did. I did my job and I got paid
for it.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Well. At the time the NWA was disintegrating, was was
that part of the decision was that it looked like
Vince was going to be the only game in town.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Well, you know, these these other promoters had the opportunity
to work with Vince because I remember Vince when when
we started going into Georgia, and that I mean he
had the opportunity to work with him, or at least
that's what I heard, and they didn't do it. So
they they chose rather to go out of business than
because at that point we had all the best talent.
(34:54):
You still had some talent that was still with UNWA,
you know, but all in all, we had the best talent.
Because the guys go where the money is that simple.
And even though I gambled. I was a gambler. I
mean I don't gamble, but I like to go somewhere
where they need help, where you can be noticed. I mean,
once more fulfilling than to go to a territory that's
(35:16):
down and then six weeks or so you're starting to
get sellouts and the gates starting to come up and
everybody's starting to make a little money. That's what I
got satisfaction with. And it meant a lot to me
to go into a place that was half dead and
then to bring it back up, to build that and
to bring it back up, and that's what I like
to do.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Paul. Do you feel like you brought the others games
up as well? They'd see you in action in the
ring and feel like, you know, I've got to do
better because this guy is set in the standard.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I've heard that before. Whether I did, I don't know,
but I'll tell you this. If I was before you
and you were the main event, you had hell to follow.
I'm gonna tell you that. And I've seen a lot
of main events that were flat compared to my man
with somebody before the main event. So I like to
do that. I like to see him go out there
and top it, and a lot of times it didn't happen.
(36:07):
Many times it didn't happen because the main event was
on the semi main event.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Paul, you said earlier in your career, the promoters wouldn't
give you a pat on the back. Did Vince credit
you with what you were.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Doing at the time, Yes, absolutely, yeah. And Bill Wats
did too. Bill Wats did too. You know, he was
good about it and only did Only did too. Yeah.
Only let you know when you had a good one.
And you've got to give people praise sometimes, you know
you do, and I don't care what it is. You've
got to praise somebody that gives them, you know. And
(36:39):
those guys knew how to do it. I mean they,
I mean they were saying that, just say it because
they knew it was money for them. I mean they
knew that they had you know, it could be money
for all of us, not just me, but them and everybody.
I mean, everybody is a winner to a point. And
I wasn't the only guy that thought like that. I mean,
there was other guys out there. I ain't taking all
(37:01):
the credit by no mean, but I'll tell you what
I tried to do it every day, good night, not
want to be the best.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Well, one of the things that made you special, Paul,
was that you had the in ring ability like a
Bob Orton who was great in ring, but Bob really
didn't have it outside of the ring. You had it
in the ring and outside of the ring, which was
rare for the type of talent you had. Hogan didn't
have the n ring superstar, Billy Graham didn't have the
in ring, but you had it.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Well, it's called the total package, you know, for a
good football player. When you get drafted in the NFL
of whatever position you playing, you better be good at
it and one of the best. And you know, I
could run, I could catch a ball, and I could block.
And how many fullbacks in the NFL do you see
nowadays that can do all three and do them? Well,
(37:46):
there's only a couple anymore. A two full back and
that's the guy that blocks and pounds in there all
the time for the halfback. And that's the role I've played,
and I liked it a lot. Guys don't like the block.
It's not you go block a two hundred and seventy
eighty ninety pound guide, you know, and you weighed two
(38:06):
thirty five to thirty and you go in there and
do it. I mean what I tell you, I mean
to me, that's I like that. Man. I liked it,
and that that was my attitude. And I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed the contact and with the wrestling. I even
though there wasn't a lot of contact, there was contact,
but I enjoyed. I enjoyed just reliving my old football
(38:28):
days to a point. And I think that's what I
was doing because it just I could go twenty minutes,
I could go thirty minutes, forty minutes and stay the
same speed. And I had that ability to not tower
out and to keep going. And that's what made me different.
That's what made me different. Plus I had the body
to go with it. And look, you know, you know
(38:48):
I had to look had it. It was just a
God gifted thing that I took advantage of. God gave
it to me, and I took advantage of it.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Paul, When you injured your arm, did it was? Was
it a weightlifting accident?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
No? Yes, one of the guys was on something one
night which happened been the first time and I got
kicked under the chin and it went my neck back
so bad. That's what started it, That's what did it.
And I worked. I was in the main events with
Hogan a lot, and I worked when I should have
had the operation the next day. And just to show
(39:20):
you how stupid I was, how stupid I was, and
I'm mad at myself to this very day that I
would let that go on. And I didn't even tell nobody.
I never told Vince, never said nothing. And my arm
just started shrinking and I was in so much pain.
And I'm talking about pain now. I done chipped a
big bone out of my neck and didn't go get
surgery two years later, and then finally I got it done,
(39:43):
and the doctor just he shook his head and said,
my god. People don't know what I went through, the
pain I suffered, and then the stupidity that I had
for this business to not get it taken care of.
I could have been paralyzed every night that I went
out there, and I didn't slow up a bit like
a fool, because the money was the driving force. And
I made a bad mistake, bad stake.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Paul. Were you afraid? Did you sit in the locker
room and you know your neck on him? My arm
or were you beyond fear at the time.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
No, I wasn't beyond fear. I had a family, man,
I just bought a new home. And if you don't work,
you don't get paid. And that was the mentality I had,
and I guess I just kept going till I couldn't
go no more. And then finally I couldn't go no more.
And then that's when I kind of just walked out.
And that's what I didn't handle the right way, is
when I walked out from Vince, I just walked away,
(40:34):
and Paul.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Did did you walk away? Because the pain, you know,
sometimes if you're really hurt, the pain is so great
that you just can't even think straight.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, it was a lot of that. It was a
lot of that. And here I've been working for about
six seven months with this thing. Vince never knew it.
I didn't tell him, and I'd put elbow pads and
I'd pull him up over my arm to hide it,
to hide my arm shrinking because it got down to
light for teen inches and it went from around twenty
inches to fourteen inches. And I never really to this day,
(41:06):
I never really got tell Vince why I did that,
And he holds it against me. I don't think he
knows any difference.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
So by trying to be a great soldier, in essence,
destroyed your relationship with Vince.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, yes, that's exactly what I did.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Did you go to a doctorate during the six month
period and try and find out what was going on?
Or did you not even want to hear I did want.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
To hear it. But then I did finally go to
a doctor and he said you needed surgery, and I
didn't do it. I didn't do it. It was me.
It was my fault. And if I had gotten the
surgery back then it might have saved my arm and
all this damage. I mean, to this day, I can't
even curl five pounds. I mean, I got a serious
nerve damage here. And then I heard it two times
(41:48):
more after that, and the last one the doctor said, Paul,
you're a dub. You are doing and hear me, cannot
go back. You can be paralyzed. This is how serious
got I've had three next surgeries, my final column and
my neck is I got knots, bolt, screws, you name it,
I got it. It's just about as bad as humanly
(42:08):
possible without being in a wheelchair and I ont a
breathing machine. So but that was that old school, that
was my mentality, that was my stupidity, and that's where
I am today.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Paul. They put you with Sir Oliver Humperdink as your manager,
and I remember watching on TV and at the time
I really didn't know about your arm. Your physique seemed
to be changing a bit. But I remember just thinking,
how could you go from the main event with Hogan
really the number one talent in WWF and it seemed
like they were really pushing you down. Was it that
they were pushing you down or you just weren't able
(42:39):
to go?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I wasn't able to go. I wasn't able the mental
anguish I was going through, seeing my body and seeing
everything that I could do, tried to protect my neck
as much as I possibly could. I couldn't do it
no more. I just I just couldn't do it no more.
I just can't mean I got as serious. I don't
know if people people don't realize how serious that this was,
(43:02):
and did you know? And it's serious. I got to
figure it. I've had my neck operated on three times,
and that's pretty serious. We're talking about your Fidal column,
and that's I wasn't very smart, Paul.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I don't think people do realize because A don't. I've
been a fan for a long time and I watched wrestling,
and it wasn't until I started doing these interviews, and
every single legend from the seventies and eighties, they always
come back to the fact of pain, pain, pain, and
pain to this day and you going out there every
night at one hundred and twenty percent and continuing when
(43:34):
you should have stopped for a long term rest. I mean,
you've had it as severely as anyone, and I just
don't think people can understand it.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, and another thing too, when I was in New
York that I had the opportunity to do the Rambo movie.
They flew me to California to meet Stallone. I had
about four different movie parts, and he also told me
that if you do this, you'll be the next Rocky
and told Vince about it, and he wouldn't let me go.
He taught me out of it. And I'd only been
(44:05):
gone for six weeks with a two week extension to
do the movie in Mexico, and that would have put
me It would have given me some rest and I
wouldn't have got hurt, possibly because that happened right after
that and nowadays he lets guys do movie parts and
this and that. But you see, I didn't do that
because I felt obligated to him and if I had to.
(44:27):
If I made any more mistake in my life, it
was that I didn't go do that movie with Stallone.
He told me, he said, you have a career in
the movie. And I look back on that and then
it brings tears to my eyes sometimes that I relived this,
and I talk about it every now and then. But
I just wish I had done that movie because that
would have put me at a whole new level. That
(44:47):
would have put me beyond Hogan or anybody else because
the movies, I've never seen anybody hunt of the way
that I am, with all that aggression and stuff, and
that could control it. It was controlled aggression. And I mean,
he's alone liked me. I met his brother, a met
his wife, met him all and did a couple of
shoots different things, and my god, he flipping it seem like, oh,
(45:10):
you're that he was bullshiting me. I don't know, but
I really believe that. I mean, he told me when
I got through doing the thing, he said, you got
the part. He said, I'll have a people call you
for the flight arrangements, and this and that, and I
told Vince about it. He holed and this. I didn't
do it, Paul.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
A lot of wrestlers have tried to do movies, but
most of them there's always this comedic edge to it.
Paul Cogan a comedy, even the rock Dwayne Johnson Today comedy.
There was nothing comedic about Paul Orndorf. You would have
been something that the movies had never seen before coming
out of wrestling.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
I know it. See I know it, and I had
that aggression that I could do it without doing it.
You know what I'm saying, Oh yeah, looks on your face.
Expression has a lot to do with what you're doing
when it comes to the movies, and wrestling is a
mirror of acting. And that's what I could have done.
God knows what that would have done. See, Vince knew
that if I got into it, that I wouldn't be
(46:04):
there with him, And that's that's my thinking, And that's
exactly what would have happened, because I would have done
it no more. I would have stuck with it. I
would have. Of course I might have wrestled something, but
I think it would have opened some doors for me
that would have been unbelievable. The thing is, I don't
know because I didn't try it and I didn't get
the opportunity. Yeah, I could have quit, but then what
(46:25):
And I didn't think I had enough to know that
if I would have done that movie, that would have
opened up so many doors, so many places. And you know,
I didn't know I didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Well when he told you know, did your heart drop
or did you expect it?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
I expected it, and I guess when he told me
know that I'd be taken care of forever pretty much.
And he told me that that I would be that
you'll never have to get another job, but the way
I left, But yet he don't know all the reasons. See,
he didn't, and that bothers me that he really didn't
know why I did it the way I did it.
You know, everybody's different, and my mentality on a hot tipper,
(47:01):
and a lot of times I don't think when I
do something, I do it it is not always right.
You're going to ask my wife's that. And I did
what I did, and I'm living with it. It's over, Paul.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
It's been a real pleasure talking with you. I wanted
to discuss the first half of your career. You know,
I would compare what happened to you to let's say,
if Muhammad Ali and boxing had broken his hand and
had continued to fight with a broken hand. I mean,
I think I've heard you say that you weren't one
of the top guys that you were. What have you
called yourself a workhorse in wrestling? Yes, And I really
don't see it that way, because I see you as
(47:33):
being one of the top hand or fifteen stars in
the history of the sport. Very rare that someone had
the outside the ring charisma you had and the in
ring performance. Jimmy Snook a great in the ring, but
outside the ring couldn't cut an interview to save his life,
and you had both sides. It's very rare. And I
remember even at that time thinking, boy, I hope that
Paul doesn't get pushed aside when they've teamed you with
(47:55):
Sir Oliver Humperdink And indeed that's what happened, and difficult,
difficult time in wrestling.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
I would say, yeah, but that you know, when you
get a bunch of low lives and people with no class.
People would not even an eye for athletic ability. People
but paid the price on a football field, that paid
the price in the ring every night, got craffic payoffs,
did everything he was supposed to do. May not liked it,
but I did everything with somebody that I've ever been
(48:22):
asked to do. I never ever said I'm not doing
a job, never ever, ever. I always did it. Now,
I might give you some crap about it, but I
did it.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
And it was a mistake though, wasn't it. Yeah, Yeah,
See Hogan didn't do that.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
No, he sure didn't. He wouldn't do a job, and
because he couldn't afford to. You see, he couldn't afford
to do a job whereas I could. And they knew it,
because I could do a job one night, still draw
a house the next night, and the next time I
came back to the house I did the job in
I still still drew a house.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
So you know, well, do you wish he'd called their bluff?
Do you wish he had called their bluff and just said,
you know what, I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
That's right. I wish I had a see I think
you had the.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Rowing power that they would have had to at some
point gone along with you.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, they would have because listen, I know, listen, Once
you've been in this business a while, you know what's
good for you, what can draw for you, and who
you're gonna work with, and who you can draw with.
When they put you with a piece of shit and
then you were supposed to draw with a piece of shit,
that means I have to work three times as hard
to make up for that. And that's where their mentality
(49:24):
wasn't that good. They thought they knew it all. The
only reason they have what they had is because they
owned the place and they could do it. But they
weren't really smart about it. And they played favorite. They
all do, everybody does, and that's okay. But whenever you
got a guy that can go out and bust his
ass like at every daygumbe night of the week and
do it and do it night after night, year after year,
(49:46):
you know, I guess what happens is they get afraid
of you.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Paul. What was it about you that you weren't one
of their favorites? I would think having someone like you
on the roster. Was it that you just gave everything
you had and you never pushed back.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah, I didn't push back as much as I should have.
I should have pushed back more. But you know, when
somebody's when somebody's writing your paycheck, you know you gotta
be careful. And I did just enough. And I'll tell
you if following Dorf was ever reborn again or ever
came back out there, he sure wouldn't do some things
he'd done. I can tell you that much.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yeah, it's really amazing. A lot of people say, Paul,
has you know you were criticized in two thousand and
five at the Hall of Fame induction because you weren't,
you know, all into it with Hogan and clapping. But
here you were giving up yourself, and yet you paid
the price for it. I think that there's a little
bit of a perception problem. You went along with everything
Vince wanted to do. It gave up your movie opportunity,
(50:42):
and yet you're the bad guy. Yep, such his life, Paul.
It's been a real pleasure here. I've really enjoyed talking
to you. I've wanted to talk to you for a
long time. You're one of my heroes in wrestling, and
heroes of a lot of our listeners because I've been
talking about having you on, and everyone's like, when's Paul
going to be on? And now Paul's been on, and Paul,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
You're quite welcome. Anytime we'll do it again.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Talk to you soon, Paul, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Okay, buddy, bye bye bye
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
Itâs 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off Americaâs third largest cash heist. But itâs all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular âol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.