#19 Ed Kashi - PHOTO TALK - WTF-STOP PODCAST - WTF-Stop Podcast - Photo Talk

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Zach Waters and welcome to another episode of
What the Geft Stop forotok right chatter photographers about their
life and connection to the world through photography. I take

(00:24):
on issues that stir my passions about the state of
humanity and our world, and I deeply believe in the
power of still images to change people's minds. I'm driven
by this fact that the work of thought journalists and
documentary photographers can have a positive impact on the world.
The access people give to their lives is precious as

(00:46):
well as imperative for this important work to get done.
Their openness brings with it a tremendous sense of responsibility
to tell the truth, but to also honor their stories.
Some really thought provoking words from Cashi. You can see
them words on his website at Kashia dot com and
I'll put the link to his website and a lot

(01:06):
of other stuff on the information part of the podcast.
I was really excited when Ed said he would have
a chat with me. It's a long time coming, Ed
CVS as long as it gets. As a photographer, He's
dedicated the best part of forty years in pursuit of
telling stories, whether it was working for last geographic or
work off his own back or in collaboration with his wife,

(01:29):
Julie Winnaker, who in herself is a writer and filmmaker,
and together they form talkingized media where they write, direct,
and produce a number of short films, crate exhibitions, published books,
and other multimedia pieces. Together, Julie and Ed started a
long term project together in nineteen ninety five called Aging
in America The Gears Ahead Whether Collected Stories and Personal Histories,

(01:52):
where Ed produced a series of beautifully observed black and
white photographs of aging Americans all for sixty five that
they know in two thousand and six up. This project
would be the groundwork for their next adventure, which came
about with both Julie and having to relocate across America
and to now look after Julie's father. The project which

(02:13):
was born out of this scenario was The Sandwich Generation.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
We moved from San Francisco to New Jersey to take
care of Julie's father who was eighty two years old
at that time and was starting to have dementia and
Parkinson's and basically couldn't live alone anymore, and so we
moved him. You know, we got a house here in Jersey,
we moved him in, and then amazingly, literally like the
week he moved in, we got a commission from MSNBC

(02:39):
dot com to do something on what's called the Sandwich Generation.
This is two thousand and six, so anyway, so we
decided there was no way we had the whereithal at
that moment to report on someone else's life, because we
were going through it ourselves. Our children were ten and
seven at that point. Anyway, what was interesting was for

(03:00):
me was that, you know, having cameras all over my house,
video cameras, still cameras, it allowed me to create a
certain amount of emotional distance from what was actually going on.
It was very interesting to observe that. I mean, obviously
I would drop the camera. Herbie was his name, if
Herbie needed anything, or you know, the family needed anything.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
We talked about is working life as a National geographic photographer.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
I benefited also to learn how to edit your work,
you know, how to create a visual narrative because of
the way you edit with the geographic where you literally
the film is numbered from the first to the last role,
so you literally go from the very first frame to
a very last frame. In chronological order, so you get

(03:50):
to learn your naked you get to learn about like
what a first of what a dumbass you can be.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Sometimes we discussed as chronic kidney disease pro jack CDKU
through seven.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
And then you know, to go to Nicaragua, this was
January of twenty thirteen to work on this little known
disease I'd never heard of. And then but it was
a case where when I got there and I saw
what was going on and literally every single day in
this town of Chichigalpa in Nicaragua, there was a funeral

(04:23):
for sugarcane work here who had died of this disease.
And it was one of those moments where you know,
as a journalist you were documentary and you're like wow.
Usually you have to scratch and work so hard to
find the evidence, and this case was just in front
of me every day and it was that that moment
I resolved myself to say, this will be my next

(04:43):
personal project.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
I also find out he likes cricket. Is it cricket?
You're going to say, oh, is it?

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Oh? Isn't he? Although I will tell you in two
thousand and seven, I was working a huge project in
India and this amazing Indian man, Dane Diddy, who was
my producer. I hate to use the word fixer but
because he's way beyond that. But you know, every night
after long days in the field, we go to our hotel.

(05:10):
And he was an avid cricket watcher, and he taught
me to understand and appreciate cricket, especially as someone who
was like, you know, who had like baseball in my genies,
you know.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
So it's really happy when he found the time at
his business Scout Chile to have a chat as they
came and he asked him what he was up to.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
So today I'm in Montclair, New Jersey, which is twelve
miles west of New York City of Manhattan, and I
just arrived about two hours ago from Amsterdam. I'd been
there for the last week.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
Bit Jet Blake, I don't know yet.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
And then the freaky thing is in two hours I'm
leaving to go with my daughter to a Yankee game.
So in a Yankee stadium with you know, baseball game,
So it's pretty surreal. I assume I will not fall
asleep during the Yankee game, but it'll be nice to
be with my daughter, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's base past. But like cricket, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, it's a little faster than cricket, but I guess sport.
It depends if you understand what's actually going on.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
You must be used to all the troubling though you've
spent your life doing it.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, I mean for the last excuse me, for the
last forty years. I've spent more than half of my
life on the road.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
We've got some good air miles, then.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, I have some good air miles. I've used it
up for some good stuff too.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
What you're being doing in Umsterdam? Is it seven related?
We related?

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Not directly related to seven. I'm mom. So my wife
Julie Wenoker, who is a filmmaker, writer and also a
frequent collaborator with me or me with her, we're planning
on moving to Amsterdam in September for a few months
to just have a bit of a sabbatical from life
here in America, but also to possibly kickstart some some

(06:57):
a couple of ideas, one of which would all the
Seventh Foundation. It all goes according to plan. Yeah, So
we were doing a little you know, recky scouting mission,
meeting with people we love Amsterdam. You know, the Dutch,
the whole vibe there.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
It's a great place.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
It's really great, really, it really good.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
I saw the collaboration you did on the Somwich Generation
with your wife. Yeah, that was really interesting. It was
must have been quite hard work doing that.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah. Well, you know it was interesting because up until
that point in my career, which would have been you know,
a good twenty twenty five years into it, I had
never really turned the camera on myself for my own life.
You know that that was sort of That's one of
the things about being a photojournalist and the documentarian is

(07:49):
you know, generally you're not a part of the story.
You are not the story. So the Sandwich Generation, that
project in particular, was was very interesting. It was a
bit of a not a test, but it was what
it what it showed though, that what was interesting is,
you know, so we moved from San Francisco to New
Jersey to take care of Julie's father who was eighty
two years old at that time and was starting to

(08:12):
have dementia and Parkinson's and basically couldn't live alone anymore.
And so we moved him. You know, we got a
house here in Jersey. We moved him in, and then amazingly,
literally like the week he moved in, we got a
commission from MSNBC dot com to do something on what's
called the Sandwich generation. This is two thousand and six,
so anyway, so we decided there was no way we

(08:34):
had the wherewithal at that moment to report on someone
else's life because we were going through it ourselves. Our
children were ten and seven at that point. Anyway, what
was interesting was for me was that, you know, having
cameras all over my house, video cameras, still cameras, it
allowed me to create a certain amount of emotional distance

(08:59):
from what was actually going on. It was very interesting
to observe that. I mean, obviously I would drop the
camera if Herbie was his name, if Herbie needed anything,
or you know, the family needed anything, but that other
than whatever something that required my assistance, I was able
to kind of gain that don't you want to call
that distance? That perspective distance. Yeah, yeah, you know, this

(09:21):
sort of outsider's view, but within my home, and I
had never experienced that before.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
It's different barrier, there isn't it. I guess when you're
working outside of that and you're an assignment when somebody
needs assistance, you don't necessarily drop the camera and help,
do you, because you're there to capture something. Quite an
interesting perspective that with the amount of strings kick in
that you're obliged to go and help your father in law,
right right, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Absolutely? And what happens when I'm with strangers or you know,
folks who are not in my family, and I'm in
their lives documenting it and dwelling in their lives, you know,
then it's more of a like a judgment call. It's
a moral, ethical human call and man either or many times, well,
when we were working on the project on aging in America,

(10:06):
you know, there were times where I helped change you know,
the diaper of an eighty year older or or you
know whatever it was that you know, help help them
in some way. But unlike family or super close friends
or whatever, which you're kind of like family, you know,
you have the choice to not help. But when it's family,
you'd be you'd be pretty messed up if you didn't.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
It's an interesting debate, that, isn't it. As a journalist
in the field, you have to stay in the middle.
And I think things like with your age project. It
is nice to cross that barbiga to help. Sometimes you
need to feel and justify a little bit why you're there,
and you can help physically. You don't always have to
be in the in the center, whereas if you're in
Northern Ireland and you get involved in something, you just

(10:51):
can't do that.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, I know, it's so true, and I find that,
or I found that as I'm getting older, not just
in terms of my age life experience, but as a documentarian,
I find I'm moving more in the direction of if
I'm in a situation with anybody and they need my help, increasingly,

(11:12):
my first instinct is to help, because after doing so
much work, so many stories, making so many images, obviously
I'm still devoted to that craft and that purpose, but
there is that part of me, that the human part,
that increasingly kicks in because and you're sort of alluding

(11:32):
to it, like you better be able to justify why
you're in these people's lives. Is that you know, as
time goes on, you realize, sure, you know I've done work,
thankfully that it had some impact. But the most impact
you can have, on some level is that on an
individual's life.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
It's interesting to talk about you not being sort of
the sent to focus of the camera, and in some context,
I think a lot of your work you're showcasing now
is a lot of investigation into the way you took
pictures in the past and the stories. You're sort of
trying to find some different hunts in your work. And
you could say that in some of your publications, the
way you've worked and the way you've reinvented the Triptix series,

(12:13):
your California is, what's the California series called?

Speaker 2 (12:16):
Where CALLI years?

Speaker 1 (12:18):
The Caliars You've gone back and revisited you.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
No, it's very true, and I would say Abandoned Moments,
my new book is kind of a well, if you
take the Caliars out of it is the Abandoned Moments
is sort of the last in what I consider a
mid career trilogy of books. Yeah, three being the first
one on Triptis and then Photojournalisms, which was based on

(12:42):
almost twenty years of journal writings to my wife from
the field, and now Abandoned Moments. These are all books
and caliers that are really kind of looking back at
and that's just trying to make sense of it, but
also drawing new conclusions or new observations about what I've done,
and I go back to this amazing quote and I'm

(13:04):
not gonna I don't have a verbatim by Don McCollen, a,
you know, amazing British photographer and war photographer where I
remember there was some lecture. I was at a lecture and
he talked about how he would be, you know, lying
in bed at night in his country home, wherever Surry
or wherever it is, and he would hear his negatives
talking to each other. I can't remember. There was maybe

(13:24):
twenty years ago. I heard that fifteen years ago, but
ever since then, in some ways it kind of like
opened up my mind and my heart to that idea that,
you know, thirty forty now forty plus years of work
that I've been fortunate enough to accomplish, there's so much
there there. There are these relationships and these conversations, if

(13:46):
you like, that are going on amongst my work that
are out of the context of you know, aging in
America or oil in the Niger Delta, or the struggles
of the Kurdish people. You know, because all of my
work is predication, it really kind of inspired by issues narrative,
and you know, very applied kind of focused work, and

(14:09):
so there's something kind of exhilarating and freeing being able
to look at all that work and decontextualize it and
see what new relationships or what things it has to
say beyond these specific stories and essays I've done.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
You focus a lot on socio politics, with a quite
a bit of geopolitics store and there as well, haven't
you all for the guys.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, I've always from the beginning I had the dual
interests of social issues and geopolitics, And through my different
personal projects or commissions I've received or successful proposals, particularly
to National Geographic but other publications and foundations and NGOs,
I've been able to do a lot of geopolitical work.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, you're talking about the investigating your archive, and you've
done so much work as well. It's actually in interesting
that you look back at that and think, what have
I missed in all of this?

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Wow, Well, what I've missed is my own life.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, but in terms of the context of some of
the stories, the reinvention of the stories, that reinventing some
of the nativity within that context, because you have done that,
because you've moved into film, you've started putting some of
your work out in your past essays out as films
as well, and you've started mixing it as well. I
like you've used do you use cinemagraphs? Is it cinemagraphs

(15:28):
the word?

Speaker 2 (15:29):
I know? I mean, we work in, you know, at
this point, predominantly motion and you know, video.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
But I've seen the way you've mixed some of the
still stories, Oh, yes, with some what looked like cinemagraphs,
some like repetitive gifts and stuff like that and just experimental.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yes, Early on, Julie and I worked in what was
then called multimedia, which quickly became a useless not a
useless but a not an inaccurate term, but you know,
which is mixing stills and motion and sound on the
music and so forth, ambience sound and all that, and
interviews and so But over time, you know, I've really

(16:06):
shifted to being a filmmaker when I'm working with a
video camera or a still photographer. But I have done
in particular the Iraqi Kurdistan flipbook, that was maybe what
you're referring to it. That was a case where it's
basically like a digital flip book and pretty influential We
did that in I think two thousand and eight, and

(16:28):
it definitely had an impact. I don't think everybody loved it, maybe,
but it definitely had an impact on at least the
small world of photojournalism.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
I think it's an interesting juxtaposition with the civilian stuff
where you've got the stills and then you've got these
slippets of films. It adds anto the tension to it.
It's something different. I actually quite like it. It's inspired
me a little bit. The way you're looking at one
thing in a few different ways. Sound is amazing. I
think video and adding the whole context together with the
stills its fascinating. Digital was given the start energy to

(17:00):
do that. Can you just take me back a little bit,
take me back to where you've got your calling as
a photographer and what took you on your journey to
sort of northern ind.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah, well, really it began. I wanted to be a writer.
I wanted to be a novelists by the time I
was sixteen or so, and then by the time I
got to university, I was quickly absolved of the idea
that I could I was a good enough writer to actually,
you know, make that work and I kind of sort of.
I didn't chicken out, I guess, but I was like, WHOA,

(17:29):
what am I going to do after college? And so
I thankfully went to a really good school, the new
House School of Communications at Syracuse University and n of
State New York, and it has one of the premiere
photojournalism programs in the world. And so for some reason,
I thought, well, what about photography. It'll let me travel,

(17:52):
meet people, be engaged with the world, and tell stories,
which were kind of the elements that I imagined as a novelist,
you know, where you'd spend the bunch of years like
researching and doing all these things. Then you'd write this
book and then you'd sit back and you know just
sort of like be showered with all the accolades ha ha.
But anyway, and so so I thought, well, what about photography,

(18:13):
and man, within like two or three months of learning
this is back in like nineteen seventy six, the most
basic black and white dark room, you know, processing, I was.
I was just hook line and sinker. It had photography
had me.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
It's quite a shift, though, isn't it, From not doing
it to doing it? Was this something in your brain, Yeah,
getting some vibes from somewhere to give you that I'm
going to look at photography.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
Well, you know, no, I think it was just I mean,
I think I can actually remember the not the day,
but I can remember the moment where I was. You know,
for anyone who's gone to college and you're in your
freshman year, I don't know how it is in outside
of the United States, but you know where there's this
intense pressure for you at a pretty tender age seventeen
eighteen to decide your goddamn future. You know, like what

(19:01):
am I going to major in? And so I was
like frantically looking at you know, the syllabus, you know
the books that you know of the courses, and I
saw photography and I saw photojournalism. And I think the
other element that's really important to mention is that because
I grew up in New York in the sixties and seventies,
I grew up like with the sort of breast milk
of the progressive movement, you know, the women's liberation, the

(19:24):
civil rights movement, environmentalism, you know, the birth of all
of these, you know, amazing and beautiful things, even though
not all of them have turned out the way we
might have imagined or hoped back then, but you know,
it was a time of enlightenment, and I was like
a kid, you know, I was ten eleven years old,
so I absorbed all that. And you know, I went

(19:46):
to Vietnam War protests in Manhattan when I was twelve
years old, and some of it I didn't even know
what I was doing there. I just knew I had
to be there. It was the right thing to do.
And I think those intentions, those impulses, you know, the political,
social impulses, were inside of me. And while I imagined,
I dreamed of it, of using writing to express or

(20:09):
report on those things, it ended up being photography. But
what really got me besides just the excitement of learning
something new, you know, agitating film and you know, seeing
your negatives come out and making prints, you know, that
sort of alchemy, that magic exactly. I mean, that's the
magic of analog photography is it's truly alchemy. It's alchemy.

(20:32):
It's water and chemicals and puff you have this these
magical things for But it was learning about photographers like
Imagene Cunningham, who at that point was I think in
her nineties, and she was still like you know, making
pictures of you know, models frolicking in the redwoods in California.
Not that I had any interest in making those kinds
of pictures, but what it what it did was it

(20:53):
captured my young, unformed mind and my imagination, and I
was like, wow, I was able to live that long.
I could like do this up until my nineties. I
was like, I'm in. I am in. And then the
next sort of apocryphal moment, if you like, for me,
besides learning about you know, the Master's Brasson and Cortege

(21:16):
and Latigue and all of them. You know, even Don McCullen,
who was probably in his prime then, but you know
Eugene Smith on and on Bill brid It's such a
long line of you know, Robert Frank of amazing photographers,
who was seeing Mary ellen Mark's book Ward eighty one,
and it was a black and white book of documentary

(21:36):
photographs about a mental asylum in Oregon for women. I
don't know if that's what that says about me, but
that was the book that was the body of work
where I was like, that's what I want to do,
that's who I want to be. I want to dig into,
you know, important social issues spend time and hopefully hopefully

(21:59):
make these you know, beautiful, dramatic, sensitive photographs. And that
was really the formation of I guess, like the pillars
of you know, my inspiration then to carry on and
make this this thing called photography, photojournalism in particular my
life after college.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
Were you picking up work? What was the route then?
Where did the style come from? Because when you went
to Northern Ireland, I know you were doing a lot
in the nineties. I know you were really prolific with
black and white as well. Yeah, you know you're really
covering I mean we go back to social politics. You
were really jumped in there with some of the subject matter.
Where was the point from leaving university to going off

(22:40):
in the early nineties and what was the build up
to that?

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Well, that's really interesting because when I lectured students in
especially high school students, but you know students or people,
you know, young folks who want to enter this field
or in this field, I talked about how when I
got out of the university, I moved to California and
never been there, didn't know anybody, but I just felt
I wanted to get away from New York City. And
then you know, this is nineteen seventy nine, nineteen eighty

(23:06):
and then all of a sudden, I become like this
hot Silicon Valley photographer for all the magazines. And so
through the eighties I photographed Steve Jobs maybe eight or
nine times, Bill Gates, you know, all of the luminaries
of you know, the founders of Intel and all of that.
At the very beginning, the first the first wave of
what we called Silicon Valley in the nineteen eighties. At

(23:28):
some point, I think it was nineteen eighty seven, nineteen
eighty eight, I'm you know, I'm getting published by all
the major magazine going, you know, being sent around, you know,
making a living, all of these things that would sort
of be quote unquote considered success. But I was miserable
because that's not why I wanted to be a photographer.
I wanted to be a storyteller. And then I woke
up one day and it's like I'm bringing you know,

(23:49):
lights and hustle blots and doing lit color portraits of
CEOs or you know, shooting in clean rooms. Nothing against
covering Silicon Valley either, It's a super important story anyway.
So I realized if I was going to and this
is the instructional part I feel for young folks is
if I was really going to pursue my dream, I
had to pivot, and I had to take my destiny

(24:12):
into my own hands, because at that point I was
becoming known as the guy you'd send around the country
or the world to do these portraits of people, and
that's not what I wanted to do, as much as
I enjoyed it. So I decided I went with a
colleague who's actually Andrew Ross. He's from the UK, from
Bath actually, and he'd moved to San Francisco. He worked

(24:34):
as a reporter and an editor for the San Francisco Examiner.
We went off together in Northern Ireland in nineteen eighty
eight and that's really where my destiny changed. That's where
the thank goodness, the pivot happened. And it was the
first time where I started to look at my work
and I was like, man, there's something here now, you know,
like obviously still have a ways to go, but there's

(24:55):
something here that's exciting. And thankfully editors and other people
felt the same. And then my work started to get published,
especially in the UK, you know, back then the Independent,
the Observer, in the Times, all the major you know, gosh,
it was such a rich time in the in the nineties,
you know, late eighties and through the nineties, all of Europe,
but particularly in the UK. You know, you had four

(25:17):
or five weekly wonderful picture magazines. It's funny. I was
just saying this to my wife when you were in Ashtam
this week. It's like, it's like, you know, the Beatles
had to come to America. I'm not equating myself with
the people, you know, like, you know whatever, the great
bands from Britain needed to come to America to make
it globally, and I had to go to the UK
to make it in America. So anyway, But so then

(25:42):
that work in ordern Ireland, I spent about three plus
years developing a project looking at the Protestant community specifically,
and that that also kind of was was a harbinger
of what was to come that I would and through
even up to this point. You know, I'll often pick
a group or I'll pick a you know, like I'll
pick some underreported element of a story we think we

(26:04):
all know and then go deep with that to show
another side. And that's what the work on the Protestant
community in Northern Island was for me. And then there
was also the launching pad to then you know, prove
to editors I get National Geographic and then Life Magazine
that I could create a visual narrative, and that was
really what changed the course of my life, my career.

(26:29):
And you know, then I was doing you know, major
assignments for National Geographic, most of which I pitched to them,
so in a sense, I was writing my own ticket,
you know, to do the work I cared about. Did
a lot of work in the Middle East through the nineties,
and then we shifted, of course to color color slide work,
and yeah, and then and then the rest is kind

(26:50):
of history from there. But always, always I had a
personal project, and that's something I emphasized to photographers. And
it doesn't matter if you're doing fashion there, you're doing
conflict or whatever, it doesn't matter. But you should always
be pursuing something that is your own.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
The Protestant work was when I first heard your name.
The style of work in that series is phenomenal. You
can see even now, how long ago is it ety years? Yes,
everything about it, the composition, the design of the work,
everything is spot on. You know, I remember that body
and I remember also the other story you did on
the denied as well, America's under ensured. My point is

(27:30):
is that Protestant work for me was really brilliant. You
were jobbing it between university and the point where you
hit Northern Ireland. You've learned your craft there. You don't
just come from a job in photographer to creating style
of work like that. What was pushing your style in
terms of, you know, working on the design of your work,

(27:51):
working on the way you were shooting, Well, I.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
You know, probably you know, I was certainly influenced by
certain you know, by a sort of a photographers, but
you know more, you know, how can I put it
from the past, it would have been you know Basson
or Robert Frank and you know Eugene Smith of course,
but then Mike more contemporaries like Jill Perez, who's whatever

(28:14):
ten or fifteen years older than me. But you know,
at that time we were working contemporaneously. But Jill certainly,
and he did so much work in Northern Ireland, influenced me,
you know, in terms of just this dynamic these dynamic
compositions and and really you know, incisive moments. So I

(28:36):
think you know, I was sort of conjuring up, you know,
the kind of I don't know, like a menagerie of
great photographers and great photographs that I had absorbed over
over the years at that point, and then but most importantly,
kind of responding in my own way. And you know, again,
one of the great and important results or aspects of

(28:58):
doing your own personal work is that you can do
whatever the heck you want. When I'm on assignment, when
I'm working even on a project financial geography that I
have pitched to them my own idea, I still know
that there are certain kinds of images that I need
to get to satisfy them. When you're working on your
own thing, you can do whatever the hell you want,
And so that leads to more experimentation, I believe. You know, yeah,

(29:21):
you know, you kind of there's no safety net in
some way, but there's also no failure, right because if
you only can fail in your own eyes. So anyway,
so I think all those dynamics, all those elements blended
to sort of give me the inspiration to kind of
reach a new level of seeing and a new level
of capturing my work.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, you have to push the You've got to push
the camera and the eye on them shots. I mean,
some of the compositions amazing. One of my favorite is
the two couples kissing and the fire yeah in the background.
There's so many great shots on that series, and that
project always stuck in my head. It was actually later
on I realized, oh, the guys should call of as well,
you know, because you did shoot a lot at black

(30:02):
and white. It's interesting your project and Ensured people in America.
I found that a fascinating project. The whole thing of
health ensues became quite the sort of thing with Obama,
didn't it. Yes, Yes, it's sort of big thing now.
And it's interesting with that project when you look back
at Denied, because I'm surprised you haven't looked at it again.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Are you talking about my aging in America project.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Crisis on America's Unensured?

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah, boy, I mean that's an issue that unfortunately never
goes away. And this sort of screwed up country we're
living in when it comes to healthcare in America, you know,
it's where it's so the incentives are wrong. It's a
product of capitalism, not just capitalism, but the American version
of it, which is somewhat Darwinian and rapacious and often

(30:51):
doesn't well first of all, does not promote the common
good and secondly gives the wrong incentives, you know. But anyway, anyway,
so within that context, within that this universe that we're
in here in America with healthcare and health insurance. Yes,
I have not done anything specifically on it since then,
but boy, there's so much work I've done since that project.

(31:14):
Because I'm two thousand and two, I want to say,
it's a subject that we're never very far away.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
From, especially after COVID and lockdown. I mean, America's really
took the bunt of that, hasn't that. Yeah, absolutely, And
I often thought about that after Obama left the COVID situation.
I've always expected somewhere along the line, you do visit that.
That's just me.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, no, And it's interesting. I mean there's certain subjects
or you know, even you know, the Kurds, Yeah, Nigeria,
oil and Nigeria. There's you know, there are so many
my major projects I would love to revisit. But what
happens is you start, you know, I get absorbed in
other stories. It's it's or other issues. It's a frustrating,

(32:01):
it's a frustrating element or aspect of doing this work.
Even though I'm a long form, in depth storyteller. Even
with that, I still am frustrated or I lament that
I often am not able to go back and revisit
issues that I've that I've already covered deeply, and I'm
not sure what that's about. It's partly the vagaries of

(32:25):
being a professional and having to make a living and
you know, but it's also, you know, on a lifelong learner.
So I get excited about a new idea and then
I want to or a new issue and I want
to learn about it, try to figure out how to
tell a story. So it's almost like with old friends anyway,
speaking of which I'm the dearest friends Hugh and Jackie
and Belfaz too, I'm one of the other. One of

(32:48):
the things we're excited about moving temporarily to Amsterdam is
now we can go visit them.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah, what were you using them for your black and white?
What was your goal to camera?

Speaker 2 (33:00):
And lens laikas M six's And then I might have
like a canon whatever there was all films, so whatever,
the canon cameras back then were through most of the
eighties and nineties, I worked with canons and leikas, and
then after the digital revolution, and I'd say two thousand
and two two thousand and three is when I never

(33:22):
looked back. I haven't shot film since two thousand and three,
and it's all canons. And now sometimes I've got some
Fujifilm cameras which are quite wonderful. There are the poor
man's digital lika.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
There's something when you really moved into color.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Then, h No, I moved into color, and I would
say really hardcore in nineteen ninety one with my first
nat Geo project on the Kurds. Up until that point,
I was doing a lot of color work for magazines,
you know, small stories, portraits, things like that. But it
was really nineteen ninety one where I, you know, really

(33:57):
shifted to doing hardcore color, you know, photojournalism and documentary work.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, that was when Borders bleed. That was ninety four. Yep,
we're using six then twenty. I presume you worked with
Nastra geographically.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, well this is I find this funny in the
age of you know, digital cameras where you can put
your ISO up to like thirty two hundred or whatever.
You know, I worked with Codo chrome two hundred. Whoa,
and I pushed it to three sixty. No, seriously, that
was the indoor low light film. Yeah, and then in

(34:33):
another camera I would have Fuji Chrome one hundred or velvia,
but Fujichrome one hundred I think, SINSI. I can't remember
the name of the Fujifilm one hundred ISO. And basically
that's how I worked for a good almost fifteen years,
is I'd have two cameras with those two films, So
then I was theoretically able to respond at any moment

(34:56):
to any kind of lighting situation.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
When you were port sussing with three thousand, two hundred,
did you have to write plus four and a lot
of your film knostics?

Speaker 2 (35:03):
No, No, I was pushing the two hundred to three sixty.
I'm saying that whatever, like or you know, like a stop,
stop and a half.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Oh, like, yes, I'm thinking three thousand and two. I
was thinking, wow.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
Right, That's why a lot of my work back then
was handheld at you know, an eighth and a quarter
and a fifteenth of a second, and of course I
was using prime lenses then, so they were fast. It's
incredible the tools we have now as the photographers are young,
young photographers that are just starting don't don't unless they've
gotten into shooting film analogue. They don't. It's hard to

(35:37):
understand how what a profound change has taken place in
the technology has made it so much easier. But you know,
it doesn't matter what technology or camera you have. It's
your you know, your head, your heart, and your gut
that are really going to determine whether you do great
work or not.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
What was it like working for National Geographic.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's for for some
it's the you know, it's the mount Everest of photography.
For me, it was it was obviously incredibly serving and amazing,
and you know, I feel so fortunate that I was
able to have them, you know, as a as a
consistent client is a dumb word, but you know, because

(36:17):
it was so much about journalism and reporting on the
world and very collaborative when I was you know, when
you're in the stable with NAT GEO, it's a whole
different thing than being an outsider. But so overall it
was incredible and you know, I always say I got
paid to learn about the world, and I was able
to you know, write my own ticket on a number

(36:39):
of projects that went on to be books or you know,
personal work, not just assignments. I was able to, you know,
explore the Middle East, which my mother and father are
born and raised in Baghdad, in Iraq, so I was
born in New York. I'm a first generation American, but
I grew up not as an Iraqi American. I grew
up as an American kid that to have a good Sundan,

(37:01):
you know whatever. Just you know, it looked a little different.
But you know, when you're in with nat GEO, in
some ways, there's nothing quite like it. But you know,
it's also a precarious relationship because it's incredibly competitive, and
especially as one gets older than you know, whether you
like it or not, you need to make room for
the next generations. And you know, now I don't do

(37:24):
very much with that GEO, so I don't know how
they're working. But clearly there's no question that the assignments
are shorter. You know, my first two assignments for them
were twenty six and twenty five weeks each. You know,
it's it's insane by today's standards to think that. Frankly,
I wouldn't want a twenty six week assignment on some level,

(37:46):
but I'm joking, but anyway, so I got a taste
of that kind of like whatever you want to call it,
sort of the the the end of the golden age
of that kind of magazine photojournalism. You know, now probably
the average assignment five to ten weeks, which is still tremendous, tremendous,
and you can do great, great work in that amount

(38:06):
of time. So you know, it was a great, great,
great learning experience, and you know, who knows, I could
still do work with them, but you know, it feels
to me, you know, one of the things that I've experienced.
I know, I'm sort of jumping all over the place here,
but you know, this issue of agism in this profession
is quite quite clear, and I didn't anticipate it or

(38:28):
think about it, but you know, I am now seeing
that and I understand it on some level. You need
to make room for new generations of folks so they
can gain experience and have the opportunities. But it's not
something I guess I just you're not prepared for it
in a way because you're cranking. I'm in some ways,
I'm at the height of my powers. I have so

(38:50):
much experience all this stuff. But anyway, so I've learned
to apply all that passion and energy and skill and
talent to you know, through other needs.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
I remember in the mid nineties or maybe yeah, about
the mid nineties, I walked into a room at Magnum
and I saw all of Steve McCurry's boxes of transpondency
coming back from an assignment. Man, it was like amazing
amount of boxes of ector CM or corda chum. Yeah,
you used to show you a lot of film then, Yeah,
that's for sure. Did you take it all out with

(39:20):
you or did you get deliveries? How the heck does
that work?

Speaker 2 (39:23):
I mean, in retrospect now with the digital workflow, it's
horrifying to think the chances we took shipping, you know,
on the processed film around the world. But I know
that's what we did, you know, And you whether they
thank goodness for you know, FedEx and DHL back then,
and you know, just the good graces of the photogds

(39:45):
that I never lost any film. I'm furiously one would
right now. But yeah, and it was really flying blind.
But that's all you knew then, so you didn't I
didn't look at it like you know, now again in
retrospect or the with the perspective we have now, it
seems insane that we would do that, you know, like

(40:05):
a month's worth of work, hundreds of roles of film
we would ship, you know, lead bag, you know, from
wherever I was in the world, Syria, Turkey, wherever, wherever
you know, the crimea back to Washington, d C. But again,
thankfully it worked out, and you know, the process was
also quite educational, you know, I really appreciate that something

(40:26):
else working for I did seventeen features for the magazine
plus some other smaller things over the about a twenty
five year period, so I benefited also to learn how
to edit your work, you know, how to create a
visual narrative because of the way you edit with the
geographic where you literally the film is numbered from the

(40:48):
first to the last role, so you literally go from
the very first frame to a very last frame in
chronological order. So you get to learn your naked You
get to learn about like what a first of what
a dumbass you can be. Sometimes you move on from
situations that were percolating, but in the moment you were

(41:11):
able to realize to stay with it.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
You know.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
What I mean is that I'm simply trying to say,
is that it really taught you the importance of patients,
you know, and anyway, but also just how one photographs
and how your mind works. So in that sense, it's
quite a brilliant learning, you know, opportunity.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
I remember going off to places like Africa and Cupboard
here and Bangladesh and I would be like carrying one
hundred and fifty rolls of phone with me and it
was ridiculous. You must have been doing trouble.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
Well, or even when I was working on my own
project in Northern Ireland and I you know, I'd show
up with three hundred and fifty roles of you know,
TRIX and whatever, you know, tm X, whatever, the black
and white films.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
I was using in these big lead bags.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
And you know it's ridiculous, wasn't that.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah? Well, I think if you saw I don't know
if we would all feel this way. But if I
saw a video of like how I was back then,
was embarrassed.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
It's different now. And also you know you'd go out
and sheet you wouldn't say anything. You have to sort
of wait till you got home. But now you can
go back to your hotel or you go back to
your little bed, and you have to sort of look
at the edits exactly. You have to start worrying about
the editing process straight away, don't you. It's quite it's
completely different dynamics. Now, one project you did which really

(42:32):
interests me is your CKDnt project, which is really interesting
on the chronic kidney yeah problem around the world. Was
that a national geographic project or was that a person
that actually.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Was a small commission that came to me originally through
seven and then you know, to go to Nicaragua this
was January twenty thirteen to work on this little known
disease that never heard of. And then but it was
a case where when I got there and I saw
what was going on, and literally every single day in

(43:06):
this town of Chichigalpa in Nicaragua, there was a funeral
for a sugarcane work here who had died of this disease.
And it was one of those moments where you know,
as a journalist you were documentary and you're like wow,
Usually you have to scratch and work so hard to
find the evidence, and this case was just in front
of me every day and it was that that moment

(43:27):
I resolved myself to say this will be my next
personal project. And that was eight years ago and since
then and it's not done. I'm planning to go later
this year to Nepal and Katter to work on a
new segment of it, also more focused on heat stress
and the impact on workers. But you know, we've now

(43:49):
worked on this project in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Peru, Sri
Lanka and India. So this is sort of my current
long term project. And it's also it reflects the way
my approach, which is doing more advocacy, journalism.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
Eloporating on the cigantique for people who don't know what
is it?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
So chronic kidney disease of non traditional causes. So basically
it's it's a it's an epidemic. It's a health epidemic.
And I know this is a really crap time to
talk about another health epidemic. Thankfully this one is not
killing millions of people, but it's killed tens of thousands
of people and sicken hundreds of thousands of people around

(44:33):
the global sort of the equatorial band, the hot zones
of the world. It's different than you know, diabetes obesity
and high blood pressure, which are the three main causes
of chronic kidney disease. Do you know that a tenth
of humanity has chronic kidney disease of some kind? And again,
it presents itself mostly in you know, high blood pressure, diabetes,

(44:54):
and obesity. And so this disease attacks a different part
of the kidney. It's definitely connected to repeated dehydration, possibly genetic,
probably connected to you know, man made and natural occurring compounds,
you know, agrochemicals, silicates, arsenic, different compounds that attack the

(45:14):
tubular part of your kidney. And so what I've resolved
myself along with other Tom Lafay, who's a young filmmaker
that I've worked a lot with who's now based in Bogota, Colombia.
And then Jason Glazer, who is really the mastermind behind
all of this. He was a filmmaker and he started

(45:34):
an NGO Islam Network, a small NGO, and he has
dedicated his life to trying to figure out what are
the causes of CKDnt and solutions and it's very beautiful
and what was in right before the pandemic hit in
early twenty twenty. I went with him back to Nicaragua
to work to cover what's called the Adelante Initiative, and

(45:57):
it's his making and basically it's rest water and shade
to the workers in the sugarcane feels a Nicaragua, And wonderfully,
I'm happy to report that not only has the incidence
of the disease subsided, but also the productivity has increased.
So you know, it's wonderful when you can, as a

(46:18):
storyteller or as a journalist, be part of a potential
solution to a problem. And of course it's not because
of me. But what is absolutely clear is doing this
kind of storytelling not only raises awareness among the public,
but it brings together the researchers and epidemiologists and healthcare
professionals around the world who are studying this disease to

(46:42):
create international protocols of research and so forth and so on.
So I need to get so wonky here or in
the weeds, but quite frankly, this is why I love
doing this work. Is that you get to become a
bit of a little mini expert on a subject that
you're hopefully passionate about in my case i am. And
also that this is work that can actually benefit people

(47:02):
it can benefit, you know, particularly poor agricultural workers. So
you know, I'm I'm you know for me, this is
also the spirit of advocacy work, where you're not trying
to show both sides of a problem. You're trying to
show the problem, but then you also show some possible solution.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Isn't another side to these workers lives as well? Because
the types of workers which succumbed to it, chances are
they probably tied up in sort of modern slavery as well. Well.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yes, and you particularly see that in Mesoamerica, you know,
Central America, maybe southern Mexico where but certainly in in
you know El Salvador, Icaragua, where we have reported on this.
When you're paid by how much you harvest, then you're
essentially it's it's modern slave label because that means if

(47:53):
you're sick for a day or a week, you're shit
out of luck. You're not going to get paid. There
was no like health care for these workers. It's so
messed up. They work as hard as anybody on earth,
and yet they're living conditions they literally a lot of
them look like they were living like in a refugee camp.
So it is unacceptable and that is part of the

(48:15):
motivation and inspiration for doing this kind of work. And then,
of course, besides the impact the health impacts on the
individual who get sick or dies, there's impact on the family,
on the community, you know. And then in a larger picture,
in a country like a poor country like Nicaragua, you know,
it's a strain on their healthcare system, or in India,

(48:36):
which has you know, is massive in so many ways
and has in some ways quite an amazing healthcare system
in some ways, but they can't What was it We
worked in Tamil Nadu. That's a state with I think
eighty five million people eighty five million people in that
one state of India, and something like four percent of
the population has KDNT do the numbers man that tens

(49:00):
or hundreds of thousands of people, And so there's no
way that India, the Indian healthcare system can can provide
the dialysis clinics and all the care that is needed
to you know, support or maintain the people who get
sick with this disease their lives. So, you know, there's
broader implications to a disease like this.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
I think a lot of times it's out side out
of mind. But in India itself, there's a lot of slavery,
there's a lot of people tied from generations of families.
I just looked at that project and it just sort
of tied in with the whole the workers, and thinking
a lot of this is going to come from that
side of it. You know, it's obvious.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Yeah, absolutely, So.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
When did you join seven? And how did that come about?
Where are you now and what's next for you? So?

Speaker 2 (49:45):
I joined seven in twenty ten. They invited me to apply.
I wasn't intending to because at that stage in my career,
in my life, I had figured out how to make
a living support, personal work, part of family support, a studios.
So I was a little you know, hesitant to shake
that structure, that paradigm, whatever you want to call it up.

(50:08):
But at that stage I felt like, you know, for
all I had accomplished, it would be amazing to be
part of this great group of photographers where we could
collectively do even more together. So that was my That
was the entree into seven. Thankfully I was voted in.
And then that's been whatever twelve years ago, and in

(50:30):
that time there's been you know, tremendous ups and tremendous
down some you know, pretty traumatic things, and a fair
bit of toxicity and a collective of crazy people. I
have crazy photographers always say photographers are like feral cats anyway.
But I'm so happy, you know, so I feel so
fortunate that we made it through the hard times and

(50:52):
now you know, we're in a really beautiful position where
we've we've thankfully brought in more women, and you know,
we're still trying to deal with the diversity issue, both
in gender and race. But it's not easy because we
can't force people to apply and join. It's you know,
so it's so yeah, yeah, but you know, the thing is,

(51:14):
and this has happened as we passed over some incredible
photographers of the last tenful of years because they were
white males, and it's it's horrible, horrible, But this is
the moment we're in where we're trying to address we're
trying to address the chorus out there, and rightfully, so
rightfully so that it's crazy that you know, there aren't

(51:35):
more African photographers, or or even Black American photographers or
British you know, photographers of color and so forth and
so on, you know, and of course women that goes
without saying. So, what's been wonderful to see in the
last handful of years we brought in i think seven
new women, and it's just great to see how it
changes the whole like the whole dynamics nature he had.

(51:59):
The comfort station is more intelligent, the vibe is nicer,
it's a more loving and supportive community now, and we've
basically been able to get rid of all the toxicity.
And so while agencies like seven and Magnum Nor it's
possible that in some ways they're anachronistic, you know, they're

(52:22):
kind of like it doesn't make sense in today's world
on a business practical level, it does provide this tremendous
community and support, access to knowledge and experience and as
well as of course the production of new work. In
a communal sense.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
It's interesting with social media and the digital age, it
has created a lot more community and has brought a
lot of people together. And I think community now in
the next ten years is going to play a big
part of people feeling that they belong to something. And
I think in just the way I'm looking at my
work and you obviously look at community when you're creating

(53:02):
your work. I think it's a really interesting word for
the next ten years and how people can come together easier.
Forget about toxicistm It's always going to happen, you know.
But I think for all the crap what's in social media,
there's always something in there which brings people together.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Yeah, and you know, in a perfect world or like
you know, when it's working right, absolutely, But what I've witnessed.
While I've certainly witnessed what you're describing, you know, the
positive aspects, what I'm also seeing is that now there's
like a new kind of tribalism within our little profession.
You know, our small profession. We never sat around as

(53:43):
men and said we don't want women photographers. We always
wanted women to be around because it's nice to have that.
So besides just the talent and skills and all that intelligence.
So anyway, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.
But bottom line is that there I think there's so
much anger and frustration with the race issue and gender

(54:03):
issue that we're in this period where you know, the
pendulum is almost like violently swinging the other way, and
so you know, I'm just realizing you have to sort
of grit and bear it and hope that things level out.
But what I don't like is this kind of tribalism
where you know, I don't want you know, male photographers
pinted against female photographers and black photographers pinted against non

(54:26):
black photographers. I mean, that's insane, insane, and nobody wants that.
Nobody wants that. So so that's something that I have
to say. I'm you know, I've been struggling with in
the last handful of years. So again to get back
to your positive comment about social media, it's wonderful, you know,
it's wonderful what it's been able to do, but there

(54:47):
is a downside.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah, I think you're always going to help that. I
think we look back in twenty years and see this
period over the last five years from maybe the next
five or ten years is a massive trying to period. Yep,
do you know what I mean. I think we're in
a transition now where we are looking back at what
we've done, the way we set up organizations to where
we need to go. And do you know what, this

(55:12):
transition is a good thing for all the negatives and positives.
I think we look back at it. Things have to
change and always people are not going to be happy
when things like this happen. But we've got to come
out of that to look back at it.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
Oh gosh, absolutely, I mean it's absurd that, you know,
when I go to like Perponel to visa Porlmage, you
really see that. How you know that we talk about
the white male gaze, but that in photojournalism it's been
dominated by the sort of white European male gaze. And
there's nothing wrong with that gaze, by the way, well

(55:43):
when it's done well and sensitively and ethically right. But
you know, it's crazy. I want to see what, you know,
a vin Nummees person or an Indian person or a
Nigerian how they see the world, and any gender, any
sexual or orientation, you know, all of these basically to
pick up on what you're saying or to kind of

(56:05):
reinforce it is that we're going through this beautiful moment.
There are so many more. There's a richness in the
diversity of voices, and so I feel like I learned
so much from other folks whose work I haven't had
the opportunity to see in the past, and as a

(56:25):
teacher and a mentor, I particularly get to see it
in a very intimate and firsthand way, and I get
to even hopefully help them to nurture them along. And
that's one of the great great initiatives that the Seven
Foundation is engaged in, where we have two academies now
in Sarajevo and one opening this fall in Aural in France.
And you know where these are physical facilities where people

(56:49):
from the majority world will get full scholarships to come
and study photojournalism and visual storytelling and multimedia and filmmaking
and so forth. So we're putting our money where our
mouths are. And it's super exciting. Gary Knight, he's the
bull behind this, you know, making it all happen, and
it's so it's a very exciting moment. It's a very

(57:12):
exciting moment. It's just that, you know, I don't like
some of the negative crap that has happened.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
You're just still doing what you have to do next,
you know. That's it? Yeah, yeah, no, no, what are
you doing next? What's what's next for you apart from
the baseball game?

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Next?

Speaker 1 (57:28):
For me?

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Well, continuing to build on the momentum we generated or
initiated it in Amsterdam where we will be looking at
a project that would involve training refugees and immigrants and
a project that would report on an aspect of the
immigrant experience in Holland or Netherlands. And and then other

(57:51):
than that, you know, I have a number of commissions
coming up. You know, Julie and I are working on
films for Princeton University and New York City Department of Health,
you know, different kind of small films that are all
you know, they're all like advocacy work. And then the
big thing, which I can't talk about but I'm waiting
for confirmation, would be for a major publication to make

(58:15):
a film that would take us to Cutter and Nepal
later this year. So you know, there's a lot of
there's a lot of balls in the air, you know.
Of course, teaching and mentoring continues around all of the
generating of new work. And yeah, and that's and that's
where we are.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
I noticed on your blog you've got advertising for a
job as an assistant for an assistant. I should say, yeah, well,
if you get me about green Cord, I'll come and
do it. Well, a great job that sounds like it's
wonderful well.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
It's exciting and we'll be I'll be sharing. This person
will be sharing the workload with the Raw Society, which
is this wonderful it's a couple out of a Christelle
and Jorge and there they've managed to create this beautiful
company where they basically use photography to fulfill their passions

(59:10):
of traveling and teaching and so yeah, then this new person,
who will be a creative director slash studio manager, will
be working for both me and the Row Society out
of my studio in New Jersey. And well we'll see
where that goes. But you know, it's a yeah, it's
a very very interesting and exciting time.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
Well, it looks like a great job. Bus journeying in
the morning would be a bit long. And it's been
a pleasure. It's been a pleasure, really nice listening to
your thoughts and how you've connected with the world as
a photographer is a human and the way you're looking
at the world now.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Thank you, okay, Zach, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Oh, no, pleasures my mind, mate, and enjoy your It's
a cricket you're going to say, is it?

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Although I will tell you in two in seven I
was wearing a huge project in India, and this amazing
Indian man, Dane Diddy, who is my producer. I hate
to use the word fixer but because he's way beyond that.
But yeah, you know, every night after long days in
the field, we go to our hotel and he was
an avid cricket watcher and he taught me to understand

(01:00:20):
and appreciate cricket, especially as someone who was like, you know,
who had like baseball in my genies. You know, I
was a Yankee fan before I was born, I think.
But anyway, but it was like it was so wonderful
to like kind of go aha, So now I understand.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Anyway, Obviously there's a lot of technique involved with cricket.
There's a lot of psychology involved with.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Cricket, exactly exactly, which is why you can only appreciate
it if you understand those nu ones.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Listen, have a lovely weekend. Thank you. There's anything you
ever want to talk to me about, and do this again,
just give us a shout and with jump on it
all right, take good care, pleasure, all the best by

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#19 Ed Kashi - PHOTO TALK - WTF-STOP PODCAST

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