#26 Bert Hardy - PHOTO TALK - WTF-STOP PODCAST - WTF-Stop Podcast - Photo Talk

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Zach Waters and welcome to another episode of
What the gef Stop phototop Right Chatter Photographer is about
their life and connection to the world through photography. In

(00:33):
two thousand and seven, as the renowned photographic lab Grove
Hardy prepared to close the stores after nearly fifty years
in operation, Martin Reid, owner of the photographic supplier Silverprint,
recorded a long form interview with Sheila Hardy, widow of
picture post photographer Bert Hardy. Martin's wife, Janice Reid, was
also present and may have contributed briefly to the conversation.

(00:56):
Also involved in the discussion was Charles Keeble, Grove Hardy's
last printer, who had recently fallen ill and decided to retire,
an event that prompted the decision to finally close the lab.
Martin Reid had come to know Grove Hardy well. His
company's silver Print was located just around the corner in
Valentine's Place. Over the years, Martin built a strong working
relationship with the team, which made the interview all the

(01:18):
more personal. Together with Janis, he visited the premises of
two Bauhammews so that had sat down with Sheila and
Charlie to document the end of an era. Grove Hardy
had been the cornerstone of London's photographics scene in the
late nineteen fifties. It was founded by Bird Hardy and
Jerry Grove. Hardy, already well known for his work with
picture Posts, brought creative and documentary insight. Grove and Master

(01:40):
Printer bought technical excellence and ambition. The lab quickly earned
a reputation, serving a generation of working photographers. Sadly, Jerry
Grove died suddenly sometime in the nineteen seventies and Bird
Hardy passed away in nineteen ninety five. Sheila Hardy, who
had a career of owners a photo researcher for picture Posts,
continued to manage the aspects of the archive and remained

(02:02):
closely involved with Grove Hardy until its closure. Following Charles
Keeble's retirement, Sheilah decided to shut down the business. Sheila
also held a copyright to Bert Hardy's private photographic archive,
while the rights to his picture post remained with Images.
After her death in twenty twenty one, the private collection
was passed in the Bert Hardier estate. Today, much of

(02:23):
Hardy's career material is preserved in the Bert Hardy Archive,
housed in the Journalism School at Cardiff University. This interview
with Sheela Hardy provides rare and personal insight into the
final chapter of Grove Hardy, her stewardship of Bert Hardy's legacy,
and the quiet conclusion of a place that had been
central to British photographic life for decades. I first received

(02:43):
this recording in twenty twenty four from photographer Jeff Howard,
who had been given it by Martin Reid back in
two thousand and eight. Although Jeff hadn't been present at
the interview, he kept hold of the cordon and recently
passed it on to me. It's an invaluable document of
a time, a place and the people who shaped the
vital part of British photographic history. So it's a different

(03:03):
one today. Just felt I needed to put this out there.
The quality of the recording wasn't that good. In fact,
it was really bad, so I took a lot of
time to enhance it. In part, it's not perfect, but
if you listen to the original you would appreciate this version.
I've found it really fascinating and I thought it deserved
to be put out there and thank you to Jeff

(03:23):
Howard for giving me the chance to do that. I
hope you enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
I can only remember a little bit about the beginning
of it. You read that? Do you read the article
that so they wrote from the out and.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Getty the one in black and am Magasin. Yes, because
oh I've got for you. I'm failure has to ask
you to it.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
And have it back to win. Oh yeah, well, I'll
just give a copy of it.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
I been very rough. It's a very deathly state it all.
I could lad their hands on. Am that's the book,
but that'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
All.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
But it's early life and it'll tell you about the
beginning of this as well.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Are we keep back to you?

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (04:07):
I remember saying this before.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yes, I'm sure he had. It's been out for some
years the hour, but it got all the fakes and
everything in now, so it's worth just all glancing through it.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
I love singing. And he wrote the whole thing himself.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
Do you know he did it in consultation with one
of the editors from Gordon Fraser who published it. And
what he did he's got at home, these little tiny
pocket diaries. They go back to nineteen forty, so you know,
he's kept them for years. And all he used to
do was look at these little diaries which kept a

(04:47):
record of all the jobs he did and everything including
I mean, for instance, well that dates in his diary
when he meant Belston. I mean it was one horrific,
horrific thing.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
That's the snakes now, isn't it. Yes, they are. He
kept the names.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
I mean, he was a war he was a army photographer,
and they should have gone back to war for some reason,
and he kept me I got them at Homeland. I mean, no,
they're they're really horrific, really horrific.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
But he was only there for one day.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
I think, not for much, not for longer than that,
because the whole hordes of photographers well well.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
I've always thought that that. Yeah, it was in the
army if the troops had liberate in the concert Tragy again,
the army photographs there at first, and they were then
invite when they not really what is through the other
other for soldiers, you know, I just wouldn't let them
wander read something. No, no they didn't.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
I mean your Roger went there as well, but I
think he was there after Bert, I think, but I
know he writes about a certain incidents concerning the guards
who were the Germans, because I give it, give him
some dinner, yes, the army gaze some food and he
threw the plate at them and they I think they
needly caught marshaled him because he's not about to do that.

(06:10):
Of course, you know that's the ill treatment for prisoners,
isn't it. There they were the prisoners, but they didn't.
But he got very upset about it. But it's a
good it's a good read, I mean from the if
anybody is interested in it in photography, it's a good read.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
Well, that's all you're telling me about. There was hunched
together from lots of small l well and I don't
know whether they've got the key. You can see one
bit there, but.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
Whe the one you're going to look at is very
simply he's presenting urs.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
He's not.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
And when the Queen came in he should have been
presenting art, but he was on the wrong bit of.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
He was a BN.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
They joined didn't realize they were all going to presents.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Presenting. You could really do it now, you just wouldn't
see the Joel digital things. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, but I.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Think The thing interesting about that is that I didn't
realize till I actually looked at the contact he changed
film halfway through. Now that I think is quite achievement.
It's on two different films that picture. There is a
k for that, I mean, but I think it is it?

Speaker 2 (07:20):
After this?

Speaker 3 (07:21):
Is it? Next door? There was a key published and
my hands are cold.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
I can't do it. No, no, it doesn't know.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
In the magazine they they what they did. They did
a reader's letter, you know, as they often do, and
they showed the results, and then they showed the picture
with all the different joint I think there was.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
So when you say, hey, you those you want to
tell you that is there?

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Oh that's right. How many pictures? Yes you fifteen fifteen? Yeah,
but he was only shooting with a five centimeter lens.
So you're not going to get an awful lot, are you.
I mean not not when you reckon it. But he
should have had a white anger. Well, who knows. If
he did white angers, he'd have had all the columns

(08:06):
go again, wouldn't he. So it wouldn't have helped really.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
So well. One of the things we actually the other
week was why you're actually here in South London when
a lot of the printing activity was going up on
far around the corner weather Street. And also his brother
and his brother was a building the building firm down
the end of your brother was the foreman and fair

(08:33):
if he clopped that was empty.

Speaker 3 (08:35):
And he knew was like the old Indian doctor who
lived in in the front who had a surgery there.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
And he built.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
This for a little firm that used to do window
boxes in the city, so that in fact there were
two little lorries down here, and he knew that the
window boxes were going. I think they'd gone bo or
I don't want then we bought it from them, I know.
But it was a garage, yeah it was. And R
s J in this war. Yeah, I did want to

(09:06):
but I couldn't do it. I did want to open
it up and put a garage in here, but that
was before it was decided to make it to floors
and I was just going to have it as one
one occupancy with a garage.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
He also really Fred Siek was still a guy and
then and we used to do work for Flake Street.
Soviet was literally yeah, the bridge.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
We didn't forget all that stuff up around Smithfield, wasn't
there then that's all happened since.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, we used have been one of the first labs
to actually we were set up nineteen seconds. That's why
it was.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
That's why so many professionals charging around because there wasn't
anybody else even well, even the before it was out
and do it, even when it was radio times. We
used to do all they're printing here because they didn't
have any means of doing it. And it wasn't until
much later when they set up their own dark room

(10:10):
that term.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, so at the time and he did, a large
setter would have had his own dark room, and you
were one of the first independents to get well, yeah,
of a new area, wallis Satan and all this or
the thing. But then even though I mean the Sunday
Times is in Grazing Road, the Observer was in what
in Chew the street and they moved across. So although

(10:32):
they had their own dark rooms, the photographers there, it's
not the press stuff we were doing. And if they
was having an exhibition, let's say Jane Bow and you know,
she'd come over with and there wasn't really there was.
At once you get phone calls from the father of

(10:54):
the chapel who were used and we're in the union
back well I was, I was the token idiot mangler,
so that there was our props are so you know,
the sort of thing was our prob of there. So
like the extra were actually are pressed stuff that was
all downe hair.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
They were, but it's an exhibition or something like that,
because that was before they were said in the print
they would coming here, you know, or.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
If it was a private job, if they weren't working
for the baby, they working for somebody else, that they
would bring their stuff in there. The dum McCallum at
Wayneton got the so much with the procession at the
Sunday times. They used to sing the films over to
us from June Stanyer and it was Jane standing and
the Gate which caused trouble with the Union there, but

(11:42):
that was sorting the absolute Yeah, it was at the
time that he just used to well ever they don't know.
He didn't lie to the ship. He didn't like so
you know. The other thing.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
Called Fox had a big do you remember under the arches.
They had a great studio down here Fox Photos straight
scools by Street, Yes, and they used to do all
the really big enlargements, and the story goes they stopped,
they stopped in large rather trains run over there because.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Of course the other if that's a good side take.
But that was off the schoolsby street.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yeah, I remember anybody who wanted really big stuff, all
the advertising, hating the threats off, I wanted backdrops and
things like that. Studios wanted back drops. That's where they
used to go for them. And could Bert knew this
area very well. I mean this was the as in
his old stamping ground. There's any ball down the corner,

(12:42):
because that's what I mean in the early days of
the sixties.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
I mean Patrick Wald Factory Bald Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
mean I don't he's so kind of never Yeah he did.
It's a jobby. He took all the steels for that
later field that was made over at Stanley kisboo. Yeah.
So we were getting all black and really good stuff,
you know, eated all the steels and after we remember

(13:06):
and I'm bloody sure I was to meet that done.
I'm sure we did the bloody blow ax for the
blower because yeah, and we were mighty prints and then
could we couldn't get big enough copying and copy and
copy because when I saw the exhibition of the prints,
they are from copying, now, are they? Well you can

(13:27):
trail with you know, yeah, yeah, but I know and
I'm sure we did the bloody prints in here none. Yeah,
you see in the film where the King's trying to
find this person in the in the bushes.

Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, maybe had some good, good photogs, a good interesting work,
you know we did, didn't we?

Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, And as you say, I think we were quite
one of.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
The show there or Don't Turn Dark crew obviously would be. Yeah,
from fairly early on there. They didn't set that to
about nine seventy one.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
So well we were sixty sixty Well I did sixty
fifty seven, Yeah, and we were a year over in
Holton House before we even started looking for this place.
And that's at the end of fifty eight buffet, probably
about sixty when.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
We I come here with sixty one, I know, Jerry
Afternoon Jerke, Well did you say Bert set it up
just for his own work originally, And then yeah, I
started coming because we.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Had to get out of house because Holtons had sold
all the other magazines to Oddomns and Autumns said out
you go, and we were actually working from Fulton House
for a year after they closed down thanks to Lady Holton.
That one Jerry to be. Jerry was doing all birds printing,

(14:50):
so he was doing it through the darkroom over there.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Well as I tild the other world. And that was
a ridiculous situation when I came out of the full
system went back because I had to say to back,
I did that with the dark room in helped house. Yeah,
and but still there when I yeah, I was being
paid by Halton Press to work in the dark room,
I wasn't doing any work of theirs. I was doing

(15:14):
all birds. Yeah. So the other printers ye was going
on it. You know, you know there were service me
and Jerry doing it. I mean literally I was some
stuff for house while my car do that my business.
It's a ridiculous and very very busy man.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
But when he first because he was favor of the month,
when he first went into advertising, I mean they just
couldn't get enough of him because then being anybody else
out of that ILK as you might say, not the
photo reportage type stuff done. I say, right from the beginning,
you don't forget you started work first and forty one

(15:53):
no long tire doing it.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
It was in the ticking of that dark room in
Halton House. Manager was Bill Stacey wasn't he?

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Was he?

Speaker 2 (16:03):
No? Manager? Who was manager?

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (16:08):
They used to sit downstairs in the office Bill Well
he wasn't demand it never, No, Bill would have number,
wouldn't he from the old Oh yeah he had? Yeah?
Well Bill used to work for Fox Fotos, his son
with a photographer.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Then.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Oh who was the manager that dark I consider Lie
dark Cander the name, yes, not the one who went
to c No, but it was wasn't if Jack Gownlon
at one time he was in the odd dark room

(16:45):
went he never came over to the whole No, no,
he didn't know. But after the dark and clothed there.
Oh yeah, I've always think.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Because Edith went up to Edith k used to be
whoused to run the dark and right from the word
go to let finish. She went and set up her
own place upgrading mood Edith. Kay, did you have the
year of her?

Speaker 2 (17:07):
And was called Caliboris? No, okay is quite because it
was a big raby. She set up her own little
dark and she had one princess, a very small concern.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
She used to work for almost exclusively was it lorrd Snowden.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
She could have done.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
She had a very few clouds, but they were and
she was, I mean she was. You just have to say, well,
she she trained all of you, didn't she.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
Well read that. I mean she was, as I said,
if she was, if she liked you, you're all right.
If she didn't, she was a terror, well she'd been.
She she was, she was German. She'd been trained by
lights in Detzler before the war. She'd gone being sent

(17:59):
back by Zigna to learn how, and then she went
to work for what is heating? Yeah, that's why. But
lights and larger than the dark camere than the very
injur about when whether you're kind of pitch pass out press.
You start as a boy. You're opposed to boys, so
you're taking him out everywhere, three different buildings. So you're

(18:19):
going or and that was a day when picked eighteen.
You're called up. So there's always gas appearing. And as
you come out the post there were gas appearing for
juniors in all the other departments, advertising everywhere. Yeah, and
because you're always looking, and because I said, of a
bow up to the dark, we see all these prints
being washed. Your course he's fascinating because you came up

(18:43):
and I had to be a few and I was
it to be by now how I was fifteen fifteen
and in the filic number come you know, h why
do you want to be a printers? So do you
want to be a photographer? Now if you didn't answer yes,
she would have employed because she said you can't do
it both your cat if so I were there, I

(19:04):
have to say no.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
That was if you'll luck, they'll like her where she's
She always used to maintain that you spent it, you
wanted to be a photogray who spent your life, wanted
to get out of the dark room, which you not
what she wanted. She wanted printers who wanted to be printers,
and that was it. She's a very very tough lady,
but didn't come through a tough school. So there you go.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
But if she liked you, I mean, if she liked
you and she had to like me, that was it,
you know.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
And she was she herself was very high standards, you know,
I mean she was her dark one was very clean,
wasn't it?

Speaker 2 (19:41):
And yeah, I mean she was again at the silly
things when you're kind of fifteen sixteen. I mean I
never had a camera, but your maid's had a camera.
So you he worked at a dart was so give
it to you so you develop it. I mean you
didn't know what you were doing. But he managed to
get and they when all the friends are having tea
in their teev he'd say, could to Jerry, could I

(20:02):
usually larger to make some little Tony six sports from
the mates? Which I was in there and I scrambled
through some princes and I came out and she looked
and said, they're good, go back. Wonderful the mates and
the big will.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
Kick. The standard was at it.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
So so Jerry cook this up with bird and it
was going to come out.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
I realized he'd got to get a dark room. He
knew that. I don't know that he's already so much
got to get dug. But he knew he could get
an office because that was the office that we worked in.
And then we got this place and his brother came
in and knock him out, and then things evolved from
there because once he'd started evolving a dark room word

(20:56):
gets around and you find that some people say, well,
here you gotta dog. I mean Alex Lowe heard we
had a dark room. He came round well. I think
when this was open, Jerry had managed the deck holding
the BBC. You own a library. He handed to get
all the work, didn't it away from home? Yes, coming,

(21:16):
So we had a bowlg or bully, I'm going to
close down anywhere though. They weren't going to be able
to do it, so we stepped in and we got
it here. So they used to send all the stuff
here to me. But I mean that was our first
big what you might call bread and butter work. Kept
us going. That and Bert's work, and then after that

(21:39):
other people came in and you'd find the advertising agencies
themselves would mention you around because they were you Bert
had a diagram, so they themselves would say, anybody else
will take it down to burn our dis place, and
they'll do it down there.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Because another thing in the pitch boast because it closed
when I was in the forcier. But the four printers
seemed to have the photographers you're with me, the polopers downstairs.
They had not do the processing, but it was going
to be printed. But they seem to want their feels
to be printed by a certain printer. Because the printer

(22:19):
gets to know and what is after sort of thing.
Although that wouldn't work because they ad to print very fright,
didn't they.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
Well, if you look at together, it's physical viewer which
is very flat, because you need the detail and the shadows.
And of course that's what review can do. Pick them
up if if you have it to contrasty you all
are going to do get black blacks and white works.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
And yeah, if he looked at a picture post print cold,
that's not much good, Yeah, because then it's breathing for
a certain yor you saw where they were working from.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
It was all the time to be flat, but it
done specially for that purpose.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, it's all the sharons. Our place has just started
printing some of the country life stuff, very very old stuff,
and they wanted very flat, very restrained. Yeah, the same reason,
the same reason.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yes, Well, if you do pick up contrast and you've
got your start off with perhaps to found the vogue
at the moment is perhaps for more contrasts than ever,
you're going to lose a lot of your detail. You
can't avoid it. And no matter what how good a
printer you are, if you well, there's nothing you do

(23:28):
can't bring it back. Once it's gone. And because the
other thing we always used Sam's.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Developer, didn't we, which was very fine grained, but the
one that was made specially who said there's somebody used
to make up his own formula. That yeah, that's to say.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
Had he always supplied the dark room with his own.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
The developbles I did, said, I yeah, yeah, he's our
little workshops and he just produced a phycographic. I don't
know how. I know he must have supplied the other gardens.
We were just one of them.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
And I think he was like so many that he
probably came from Germany, probably Jewish, and they all were
they on one another. Yeah, there's a great sort of
what should I say, A great number of very very clever.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
People came there. And because being a one male bay
that being Jewish. A case if Sunday was stabbed for
the development he was working the weekend, it be a
Sunday we caliver short, right, I'll be that other't was
you are both firms now at the way to Bunday,

(24:40):
he'd be there.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
And it was by doing that sort of watching animal
special service that you know, created your base for for
customer relations and so forth.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
I mean, we still kept using him when we came here,
didn't mean because he was so reliable.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
He was absolutely and his product was very larn. We
never got a duff lost or anything like that. And
you know you always had a and he was at
worked for specifically for the miniature the stead of a
millarca market.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, it all seemed to start changing when the new
papers came in the resbur It sort of changed the
sort of pace of the whole printing business a record.
Well but well when but to me on your carry
on fibre boase were a bit longer than then switch over. Well,
we used to because we used to use kind of

(25:32):
a single weight and glaze it for contacts and things
like that, and for press Pritzer eight sixes, and we did.
We used to your glazing because then that resin coat
came out, which was the glaze was brilliant. When I
mean all you're doing four minutes in the wast for
two minutes in the fix, I mean some britty you
didn't really need to dry. You could just lay them

(25:52):
out and they were dry and naturally into a brilliant glass.
Now I'm trying to think jury died in eighty two.
I don't think the eighty who were they ment Oh yeah,
they weren't. But I was printed in the seventies and
he was that the resin the Greatest Resident Dead was
just coming out of the nine seventy four seventy five.
I'm sure we have, but it's a long time to

(26:13):
get accepted. I think, yeah, I'm sure, as we never
had it, and Jerry was armoring them, my members adopting
having it.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
In fact, I've got a box of prints and and
I've got on the outside original gerry printing, you know,
just just sort of reminds me. And there's no resonance
amongst it.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
But I mean the fiber was always always four excellent,
always more of a craft really though, when you were
working with fiber base, because the original pay Is was Codact.
He was his Kodak all the time because Codett was strongest.
And then for something they they stopped. I can't know
when they stopped, and we moved to Ilford. You know,
well they also came out with a much better product. Yea,

(26:54):
if we were raised didn't as well a little. I
think we actually stopped because Codacts stopped. Ilfra Braun came
out and then yeah, yeah, ill for problems, a nice
big range of grades, a big range of contrast, and.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
Saying with their film, of course they bought down a
whole range film that Codec didn't didn't do, but I
think was always much more interested in the amateur market
and quite honest it was a much more profitable market
from their point of view.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
But they're delivered in those days. Didn't was ever read?
Can't they be likes? Therefore much you come and then
the elver they will pull up there with all the
and the because you're for had a place in shop
and straight you go down trade cancers or being you
really stuck but know whether the trade cancer they but

(27:50):
we aren't you Yeah, okay, tell you them, but sorble
give us any extra credit for it. It's amazing how
things down onto this resin which when we first started
using it, I mean it was magic and they're so quick.
You know, you could do a lot of things with

(28:12):
it which you couldn't do with fiber. I mean you
could use our vallter a lot as a fiber. It
starts if you're not CAREFB, we'll start stain it resin.
Didn't you know you could really have a go with magic?
But I can remember when I was in the forces.
We used to use a wax paper, which actually what
res in his new It's called waterproof people. That's right.

(28:35):
If you left it too long, the bloody your bosal flower.
But we use the exercises. Somebody wanted to say, your
print immediately. We used to use this will be called
wax paper, which was a form of exit code. You
just use it. That got the paper and yeah, the
pfires look at it sight away and you know, yeah,
that was abou thearly version of it.

Speaker 5 (28:55):
Yeah, giving red now paper, Yes, my last near bad
I said, well, I don't remember it, no grace, no,
And that was just a very thin, very very thing.

Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yeah, like almost like tissue paint. But then always puzzled me,
why was it Why was it INVINTI because there were
papers and.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Fcking it was for stories, you know when you've got
Isaac ives. Was it just tastes less space?

Speaker 3 (29:21):
I'm from unbelievable they would have invented paper for such
a reason.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
It must been horrible stuff to process. So yeah, I
mean you could. They were at the time. You could
put three because you get it stick thegether and then
they were going to fouled. But we used to not
to use use that an awful lot.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
I can remember when I very first went to work
for the picture Post, one of my jobs because it
was in the wall, one of my jobs. Every Friday
night I should go and have to sit in the
dark room in.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
The dark candle. Mind you they were they have a
lot of grades of paper.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
Then I mean thing you you say those grades now
people have heard of them, but they did handle them
and every single box had to be checked the number
of sheets used against the number of sheets. Yeah, this
was the customs and used to come out of the customs.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
They were classrooms. Used to come in in the protect
and won't look at the books here what had come
in and gone out? Or if business days of purchase
tags and stuff? Was it? There were four purchase tags.
Well while we were here the rash in the wall
slashing you could but even here sheet I can remember
that customs coming here and going upstairs and they want
they all receipts were paper you'd bull and all the

(30:42):
work that were going out and then they are some waists.
But so you were buying five under sheets said, and
nothing was going out whether you didn't have it stopped.
Here's it gone nowhere? But why it was when they
used to go upstairs.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
It was something they were doing because in during the war,
I can remember they because we used.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
To buy the filment in tins.

Speaker 3 (31:06):
What so many hundreds of feet in that they used
to load their own cassettes photographers did you didn't buy
loaded cassettes because ill football those out after the war?
Codek did, I believe, But they used to have these
little sept and they should have a black bag put
the hens in with the in the film.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
But the film was rationed in the war.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
And you you they were very very careful about it
because at one time they thought there was a scam
going on in the magazine. But why would there have
been more means here in the sex this the cs well,
I think it's probably something that just continued.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
They never they said appear out there's a doory that
they had come older boots, some they've had a dinner us,
you know, saying this just carried on.

Speaker 3 (31:48):
But that could have been to do with purchase taps
when it first came in, because I think we were
bold in that.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Because also funny and then I mean we used to
check our eye put down a bleed and dry. I
mean suggle you have for but then Bunker has an
American try to call it a market in silver and
everybody because plaster the silver dorif it's right, and everybody
wanted your high part of course, Oh yeah, they keep it.

(32:20):
That's where it all changed. They forced in for out
of the graphic arts marker there. Yeah, they dropped all
of their graphic arts materials after that, but they do.
They're just well they couldn't afford tomato them anymore. Yes,
the price of silver there then come down back to novel. Yeah,

(32:40):
but the prices and materials and have never come there.
They just keep on going up, but they never do
come down, do they? There?

Speaker 3 (32:48):
You look around, I mean the prices always seem to
go up, very felt, and that is including you know,
the more problem prices that I and stuff back that
never seems to come down.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
No such thing as cheap bought. But surely there are
some funny stories.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
Well good about the digital is going to judge took
completely revolutionize the whole situation, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Well, you just wonder how much more time there is?
Or did tell you something you probably haven't heard? Ilfan
had just bought kimp Mere. They announced it last week
on Monday that they said wasn't an independent company. Well,
Kenny was set up in nineteen oh seven, so they
sent here the year because they were all with merry

(33:36):
good papers the kidney right, yeah they were, well there
always some you know, cheap and cheerful as it were,
you know, professional would not be flashy about it. And
no they resisted takeovers for a century. You know, finally
makes to come there. But it amkeehem for real because
I almost collapsed and then well I think Madge, but

(34:01):
I reckon what might be behind it is. You know,
they're still they've got this side in Mobileye and it's
very close to Manchester Airporn probably worth an awful old
money now and well they sold it off to the developers.
They did the sort of deal. So they've got a
lease on the land and the factories on. But it's
going to run out at some point. And if they've
got the Kenmere side just made there, yeah they can

(34:23):
start with where it's it's just outside the lake district.
It's not quite the natural park.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
Nap says it must be up that it's Kenmere Valley.
Andrew Kendall you drive past it when you're on your
South Lakes before you get into the Southern Cumbria. So yeah,
so across the.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Thread he's dried up. Oh so, and then yeah, I
mean you were one of the first labs to start
out and you've virtually one of the last. We're still
standing so well, you have to say it.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
If there been any way that we could have continued,
I would have liked to have done. But there was
no way because you see, it's so much have been
done in the house now and those are the early
people that would probably use a darkroom like this, and
there's so few and there's so few people using the miniature,

(35:33):
the miniature films.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
And and asocially you got to remember, I mean right,
it's very few what I would call yakstas you're talking,
they acts who want to be a printer doing this
sort of printed you're with me. They've had to sit
in the screen and changed. Yeah, I've put something there.
That's great because they're used to that, but using only

(35:57):
larger I don't know where they're trying. You know. It's
the thing, what does a college of printing do? Does
they still train them do it still has a small
part of the course of things. But it did's not
seen as being a trade anymore. That's the only reason
we're carrying on. It's because we go a Sharon who
who was told by Mark Spry. Yeah, yeah, she's tad

(36:19):
because you know she was never interested in photography. But
it's like you say, you know she was told to
do in a certain way and she can still do that,
and you know she sees it as a trade. Well,
that's the best way is to I'm a good printer
to take just staying and watch, you know, so lean
I mean, when Jerry died and we have to get
another printer, we were lucky, very very lucky. After our

(36:44):
three tries, you know, we have to do it. Paul
Knights and he goes a good prep. It turned out
to be yea natural, just as natural. But he was
always interested for trophy, whether it's big said she was
third age, so we bet we know photography. But he's
a natural printer, natural printer. H the seventy others that

(37:09):
know you, they'd betrayed, you know what I mean that
one of them coming the r E F. That's really
it was useless knows what they didn't do it didn't it.
I'm trying to remember some of the other names here
because the oh didn't you've had working here? Yeah, there's

(37:30):
oh gosh, somebody still comes into us and he used
to work here quite a bit. We're not Jeff Howard,
I mean, well Ernie and excites, knock at busses there
the sites however sites, Well, I'm a printed here, but
I was interested. Yeah, yeah, Homer was coming here for

(37:52):
a long time, wasn't he. Yeah, what ama would be
about a generation of HBO sides Patrick Wolde. Yeah, he
was just a little sixties sort of you I sort
of thing that you know that. Of course he had
the l CP down the road, so that would be
quite a strong connection. That's probably why I had the
young photographers, because they also know each other. They know
once that's a nice pree where'd you get that?

Speaker 3 (38:14):
Now?

Speaker 2 (38:15):
They say, oh, yeah, well that was how Edith got.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
Hoed up with the picture first, wasn't it?

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Because I've never heard that story. I never that's the
good gentlemen. What was his name?

Speaker 3 (38:28):
No, the one who worked for the Israeli government designer is.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
Oh good deal, you know, yes, digger.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
He had a set of prints done by Edith, and
he took them in to Laurant, who was the first
editor and founder of or less of the picture pre
and he looked at them and he said, I can't
use the pictures. You tell me who did the print,
and it was Edith. Now Edith was working for what

(38:56):
is Heating? She had been sent back by what is
Heaten because he was just beginning to sell. So if
I'm met me the cameras before. So he sent her
back to Germany to lights and they trained her to
print thirty five milk and to develop. Then he took

(39:17):
her back again with a view to opening up his
thirty five minutes instead of which along ago Stephan Raams
and says, find get that printer to come and see me.
And she did, and he said to her, right, will
he run my dark crow?

Speaker 2 (39:30):
And she did?

Speaker 3 (39:31):
And that was how she ran it, right from the
word go to them to a tilet. It finished the
whole way through. Nobody else ran it at all except her.
But interestingly enough, it was it was that sort of
connection that because of her needy above all else verse

(39:53):
thirty five photographers that had already got He needed a
good printer, and he needed a good dark crew. So
he set it up and it just went on and on.
That was how hap was how she came to be there.
She also had the wife of Hatten, Kurt Hatton, as

(40:14):
well as a printer. No, no, no, no, Grettel. Grettel,
Oh no, sorry, No. Grettel was a very good printer.
She printed her husband's work when he was in Germany
before the war, and she came and she was it
is assistant for a long time.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Uniform.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
It was tall, very very charming woman. But that was
the pair of them round the dark crool during the war.
I mean, you know they that was their little fished
them up there, and I mean nobody except she. Grettel
always printed Kurt's work, and Edith always printed about one's work.

(41:01):
And the more difficult man you couldn't possibly imagine an
impossible man, but there are well.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
It was almost like a little club because roughly kind
of uh, the natsis in the early furtherest went, yeah,
well because then a little bit even young Aji I
in the brig. But Flake Street was Flake Street. You
tend to know other prentice, because there's not a lot
of you. It's not a cloud, but you tend to

(41:30):
know other printers, and you tend to know photographers sort
of thing. You know, well are they they're just for
top of us or they're not going to go You
know you.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Will hear you read the Lovely Story about Sport but
briefly tendered. But the early days in Fleet Street, because
that was how he started. He had a little bit
of agency. But they used to go to the derby
or wherever take a picture, play camera stuff, glass, nick
and use and they were all trying to get out
the big paper that was the US to star on

(42:01):
the standard at the three paper.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
So he goes.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
What a quite common sight apparently to be seen is
on derby day you would see people running up Fleet
Street with their prints.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
A light does a washing them with mess okay.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
Printed them wet on a horror horizontal in nago glass plate,
printed them wet, didn't vol to wash the fat, widing
over with math, ran up Fleet Street to the picture
into dest and they tried to get their foots.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Who would talk it?

Speaker 3 (42:34):
Well, they got the picture and that was it, the
winner of the derby or whoever it was.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
I mean, the competition was fierce.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
But it always amused me when I think of this
sight It must have been weird.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
People must have thought they were all way running along
with burning float straight was fatally everybody was right, So
I did any difference.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
Wonderful And the one there, one or two absolutely cracking
straws like that, a very very early press photography. And
they all stood him down the street to take the
picture of the prime ministers. And they're all big heavy
press cameras on tripods. So one flash gun powder and

(43:13):
one play, no one play. Some of the would shower
the caps off, they'd off, take the caps off.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
He'ds down there, bang would go the gun. Everybody had
got picture and that was it. Berg was one of
the first to really start. He's in thirty five millimeters
and yeah, it'd be a bit. Yeah. The big advantage.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
Whether it didn't, it did enable him to do a
couple of things. It enabled him to, as he heard,
earned five pounds a week as a as a fleet
street stotler, but also enabled him to take little sequences.
And I've got a cussing at home in I think
it's in the book in the mirror of I think

(43:57):
it was an actor on the telephat But for the
secrets on him on the telephone.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Are you using the Daily mirror here? And it's very
very first.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
Little sequences the fixtures that there's some uies that was
such a badal.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
And that helped us sort of define.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
Well jed had all really started in Germany. That was
where it really started. And the first you know, like
I think Edith when she went back, they gave her
a little black like her in Germany. Yeah, I mean
that when he brought his likers, he used to binden
straight from lights and have the check for the lenses

(44:41):
to see how good they were. And they weren't all
as good as one another, as you can imagine. But
they used to the blow them up very large, didn't
they And and look at the.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
The brain Yeah, argy lyric the main big thing about that,
didn't they end? They tested all the lenses leave them.
But well I was you know, like like as a
rod they chest when now and you know when I
have eight or something like that. But I suppose you
could say one that I'm not except to know what

(45:13):
it's theft to sup Well, so many.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
Weren't critical, you know, they were a bit soft and
it shows after awhile you just sort of say it's
not good, not good.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Or perhaps it's been banged or something. You never know,
never know. Okay, now what else can we talk about?
Of course? Well probably going off there verditing. Don't it
like a six sort? I said, you're probably going to
transcribe it so that we did this for the book

(45:52):
we did ten years ago and got you know, there's
an interviewed that we interviewed different people for this book
of Emotions Techniques. Oh oh yeah, and it just goes
who work? Did you there are actually people come into
your place? Actually okay, some made can navigies trying and that,

(46:12):
but did you actually see the Yeah, the emotion, the
emotion it was this we had been one of our
best lines rooms. Well it was it was just a
sort of novelty products and when we started out and
then we still well you know, there's we could do
something more with this, and we've got loads of artists
using it, so it actually be used by sceners. Yeah,

(46:35):
it's it's dropped off for me, you know since digital
came in and there's less because it's in infrasophy. The fascist,
isn't it? I mean? Was it? You also have to
tell how nice word? I can't stay he's printing The
Long Dead, their Bill breck An there some of the
books I've seen, I thought, you know it must be
up the shot but blood. Yeah, we know there are

(46:56):
coal mining and then you get the access. I went
the only printed on four in there actual only pay
but they or if it's a multi grade, it's always
start on four or fire. Nobody ever comes to herd
below that because that's the fashion sort of thing for
grade five came out here is yeah, And I don't

(47:17):
notice the magazines we baby must have started is the
shooting in the quarter spare when they reproduce, they trying
to make a nice sharp boulder. They lead the bloody
edge or jaggedy went.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
Up and then it's fashion sort of thing because of
fashion there let it keylies, which is called it black
boulder sort of you know that's only cut fashionable. But
then go back a long time to Beaten and you
always you so focus on all these actresses because he
said it's much more flattery than I mean another way.

(47:48):
You've got to retouch the loans out, but it helps,
and that was fashion.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
I think we were talking when I've seen some of
the things we used to get from the hole. Tennight
film next taken by people like him to retouch him.
It's how he's believable. You know. Some woman must have
said that hours aspecially a film style. When you print,
I mean not there you can get rid of all

(48:15):
the wrinkles of But they was staring purely on the retouching.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
And they made the next It was an art in itself.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Retouching.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
There's great big nigs, an art in itself. Yeah, as
you could see it on the Prince. But Brand used
to actually.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
Draw on his on his pictures of similar to two
of his prints, and.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
Then he copied them and print from only the copying
because he didn't touched it, or he'd emphasized lines or
whatever it is it was doing.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
It was hard to believe, isn't it? But yes, well
I remember the fab you story Trow and when Ilford
started their print of the year of all I think
the first one, so we're not one of the first ones.
What was his name? Express Prinder Bartley L. Bel Ladder,
the bon Matt Mother Teresa shot on man Theresa with

(49:08):
a with a scarf on and it won. We were
told later it's the eyes that were it. But when
he printed it, he held the eyes completely back and
then painted the eyes in because the eyes weren't there.
They were under a shadow of something she had on
her head, and he thought that ain't really okay kosher,

(49:30):
is it? But it's a lobby which when he finished
with it, because you know, he painted the eyes in
or reads up to the eyes in sort of thing,
that's why we heard a bit. You know where to
draw the line, isn't it. There's the American Jeans smith.
He did a picture story in the Spanish village and
one of the best shots was some some woman looking

(49:54):
at their dead husband or something here and she's looking
the wrong way. Very the eyes did you look in
the roadways? Well, yeah, before digitals and they laugh, but yeah,
they shouldn't really be altered. But they've been doing it

(50:15):
for years. I wouldn't thinking to do. Yeah, but it
was crude, and then they should. They noticed that on
sports pages, you know of a Sunday or you'd see
a gull, you know, the ball that wasn't the ball
because it was so crudely done. You could see that
the boat stuck it down and then digitally there you
wouldn't notice it.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
Nothing's new, nothing's new, and you should know that if
I'm all owned them.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
Maybe it's just the tools that he used to do
it that change. Yes, it is, that, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
I mean it's it's it's like the whole thing about
trap is the tools sort of change the means of
taking mind you, it's too It always makes me laugh
because everybody has the facility for taking a picture, but
it's there still doesn't see that many great pictures, not
not I eyes, not from what I call stunning shots

(51:10):
and nice pictures I'm not disputing, you know, and lots
and lots of winners and award winners and things like that.
But you've still got to say, I wonder and published
one day, what will ever be seen again? It'll be
interesting to see what the program does. They're going to
do a program of what is it? The story of
photography game? Oh I don't I think it was new?

(51:36):
Starting sometimes this way? It is, isn't it? Literally something?
One of the Sunday magazines is doing a totally since here.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
History is the history of photography some a good name
like that. Yes, it's the something of photography here, But
don't you think some photographers and the typical case was
one that came in here seven got a natural eye
and the one I can remember Sally So when she
first came in in she didn't know one end the

(52:08):
camera for another. She was a board hoss wife who
got a camera right, and literally it was like teaching
a load of film one exposed he was and everything.
But she had when she became proficient with the camera,
when she pointed a cavia, she's seeking to know the picture.

(52:28):
But it must have been just pure yeah, in her self,
you know, mhm. Do you ever get people? Are Jill Furmanovsky?
Did she ever give you any work? The only Oski?

Speaker 3 (52:44):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (52:44):
The other four of one is the drive the crackers over?
Oh yeah you should potty good photographer smashes Stone. My god,
damn me, what a difficult person feed. I think they're
getting worse than I mean, we've got through our collection
that Sharon deals with and to the other everybody staying

(53:08):
with traditions. They're all a bit weird. And I mean
I think Jerry sadly up when a typical case when
I think that's how it's well. I mean he was
a very good printer. Jerry, very very good and the
a magna for some brother came We knew most of them.
He came in and he wanted the twenty sixteen print made,

(53:31):
and Jerry made it. And he came to the couple
days later and there it was laying there, perfect beautiful point.
He looked at it and he said yes. He said back,
he said that corner down there, he said. He said not,
it's too light. He's taking your eye, you know. Jerry said, right,
He said, I PROMI again for you, and every ready
a couple of daddies. Jerry stuck on the shop and

(53:53):
he got then he said the print here back back again,
and Jerry said, the photographer wants to be in charge.
Im the one, and you do what I say. Tober
came in Saint Prix. That's a lot better. Now. We
had to kind of be like, but it's just the
the told that we're making his point. But it was

(54:14):
exactly saying preak, you know. But he was just trying
to make you that's up policy and there it's just
like you wanted to rule that creator. And then you
say the painting you fisted. You can mention, but it
always amused me, you know.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
People say and and Bert sort of was he allowed
to cut his pictures for the magazine and I thought
to myself, I can't see the asset's ever lying a
photographer near the lamb. I mean, that was it. He
laid it out, accorded. He thought he should be laid out.
Blow the photographer if he can take I want the

(54:52):
crop because some motives, some of them we say, oh,
don't allow my pitch to be cropped.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
And I thought you never worked for the magazine.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
I'm sure, because there's no the editor would ever allow
for job to come in and say well you can't
do that or you can't do this. They just say, well,
if I want to do it, I do it. And
I mean this and half the sort of if you
left it to the photography. You have to be honest.
They were put into the layer all the pictures that

(55:21):
were difficult to take, not necessarily the best pictures. You know,
days I had to do this or you know, they
wouldn't go that's it. They don't necessarily look at the result.
They've got a picture, but they don't look at the
result and say, what was it? Worst session of it
isn't no, you know you God for that. You have

(55:43):
to You've got to have fresh pair of eyes. You've
got to have somebody who has got to sort of
make sense of what you've done. You've got to give
him lots of material to work from.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
But classics are to the boys. And the gold was
everybody said, I thought that was no try, and it
was published, never did even sublished.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
But the classic example there was Bill Brandt went to
do that story first of all Gorbles. And when he
came back and Bill's all and there was mega phtographer,
beautifully composed a scene and everything, long shots down streets
in the Gorbals tenement built policemen in the foreground, you know,

(56:24):
very much lawless area.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
And the CoP's got to keep an eye on that.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
And he told me look to the pictures and said,
don't put his think so he haven't got the common touch.
What we need is somebody was a commentuch. So he
said to you go up and take the pictures. And
the journalist was Bert Lloyd, who was a member of
the Communist party. Now the Gorbles was almost communists to
a tee, all the tenements, you know, they And so

(56:51):
they went up there and the first page of the
story was published Bill Brand's picture of the policeman looking
down on the street introductory page. Next next, next neck.
But how they interesting because the Bill couldn't could do
that the what you might call that the senior side

(57:12):
of life. He never he never. He could pose it
up and make things look as if they're the under class.
But he couldn't take the little kids sitting in the
filthy sink and the drunken man asleep on the bed
with all the you know, the wall paper peeling off
and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
He couldn't.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
I don't think it could bring himself to even go
into the places. But that was, you know, the difference
between photographers. But after we'd be brought up down the
corner when buildings, you know, cannelets just the same sort
of thing.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
There are nothing new to you.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
Yes, no, go on al cafine room. I said to
Tom one day, why didn't you use that picture? And
he said to me, they didn't sit the way out.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
There?

Speaker 3 (58:01):
You turn it. It does doesn't superlam And people don't
believe that.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
The main thinge I've got it at home. Got I
haven't got that picture en mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
And the interesting thing is Handsburg good pictures like that.
That's hell from the castle that's just down the road.
That's not the gold board and she was a poster shoot.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
But you know, there you are.

Speaker 3 (58:30):
You You have to say Bill Brown was far too
push to be able to get pictures like that.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
That was the heart of the I've read called Marlo.
He did a story on a street Chelsea kind of
slams Chelsea, Marla and they it was the same sort
of thing, birth night or die. But they said he
didn't succeed because he just didn't Uh. They would a
cup of teat and it wouldn't go. You know, the kids, kids,

(59:01):
you know, he just didn't want to know them sort
of thing. He took nice pictures, but he just didn't
work because, yeah, he was a bit aloof from this Yeah,
I've been.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
Killed branch a brand was suffered from extraordinary shyness. That
was his biggest thing. He couldn't do it because he
was too shy to go in because he was a loof.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
But he was mere you're behind a caburine and a
lot of that you're not.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
And I tell you the other thing about Bill, he
was terribly conscious of the fat the energy of an accent,
and he spoke.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
That was soundings the boke. Yeah, very very strange man, but.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
That you know, it's Tom thought me highly of him
and thought he was a brilliant photographer. Brilliant photographer. But
in the right circumstance, isn't it. He didn't emphasize she
was the poor, that was for sure.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
But here you go we an artist. Yes, I wish
you're right.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
I think that as Gomphrey Hopkins is there saying he's
I mean, Goffy is still going strong. And what does
he do this these days? Only paints, doesn't they pictures?
Just paints, And I can't say that I think it's
a great painter, but he thinks that's that's his medium.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
Well, another goes and David Boney paints in his spare
time and around there once and we want to see
him for something that David David's painting at the moment,
So go car the stair of the mers and they
and some of it because I can't get breas up
really starting as a drawer of.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
His life, he never painted at all, and then he
never photographed at all.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Just painting.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Yes, and at one time he used to do lots
of drawings as well.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
That's there's one who there's what we work for. Yes,
that's true. You Yeah, Well this thing is just running
out of tape, as he were. So, how are you
being tag with us? That's right, that's all right. There's
nothing in there that is not repeatable. Well, no, I

(01:01:22):
had you say that because I would have been something
in this book about Edith.

Speaker 6 (01:01:27):
Kay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
She wrang like not true.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
There is a story. Yeah, she's very vehement that it
wasn't true. He's very verimon that it was true French. Yeah,
on an ar story on on the cabaretel. But he
takes pictures of the Garden of Dancing was precip and
they were I don't know, I never saw them, but
all Birke said was that they just had to be

(01:01:55):
and he did things. Was ever the st am I
dark but then fat? Yet it was it was it
was never never show. Yeah, And he's the only person
who could verify because there were no other photographers are
allowed into this particular thing. It was some sort of charity.

(01:02:15):
Do we got exclusive on it. He was the young
photographer there, so it was he, but she was not
in doctor nobody ever destroyed it negative If I.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Don't know, you're saying that the just some more or
less gave up quite quickly, that he's just you know,
he sort of worked himself out and just wanted to.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Mat Yeah, don't forget. As I said, he was very
much flavors of the man. He was very he's a
very fest worker.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
He he would he could go in and and do
a story and you know the five films that was
that was average, I'd.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
Say for him for a story.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
No, he always he always record, and that if you're
going to do anything, if you're going into a new situation,
and if you're going to do anything, they're going to
see it all the very first time you're going around,
when you're walking around, then you can go back and
build it up. But it's that first introduction to it,
the first impressions you get that actually make your pictures.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
In your and your mental in your mind.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
And so he because he was that's the way he worked,
he was able to do a lot in the time
he had. When he was in advertising. He sometimes did
two jobs in the day, sometimes three jobs in the day.
And I don't mean great big jobs, but okay, they

(01:03:44):
were brought on you in But Dad didn't mean that
if you're being as creative as you can be for
different different art directors who are all depending on you
to get cut the customer to pay for it, which
is the object of the exercise. After such as such
intense work, he just felt, as he said, wrung out

(01:04:06):
and he needed to stop. And then he didn't want
to do it again. He found it very intensive, and
he just you know, and I think also that you know,
there were perhaps other in slight interests in mid life
that were taking over. And the real forte was the magazine.

(01:04:28):
I mean, I got one issue at home and there
were five stories in the one issue by him. I
don't think anybody ever had five stories in one issue.
They weren't all sort of seven pages or anything like that,
but you know that that's quite quite something. And they
weren't all done the same week or anything like that.

(01:04:49):
But he was very, very exhausted when you know, when
things began to Eve's office, hees and he didn't do it.
The thing about it, he certainly didn't go out looking
for work, and it slight. There was everything in advertising.
You can be flavor of the month for a while,

(01:05:10):
you know, as with all advertising, you fight hard to
retain a place if you've got a style and so forth.
So yes, he did, he felt absolutely that was why
he let this become self what it was. It was

(01:05:32):
a commercial proposition in its own right. Then when he
dropped out of it, he didn't have any regrets at
all about it. He just left it to Jerry to
take it over and make it what he would. And
I mean he knew it was after a good start.
He didn't have any doubts on that score. But no,

(01:05:53):
I think he I don't forget in his days when
he was working for Dougraphy traveled.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
You'd't necessarily like the traveling he did. So when did
he retire again, There's.

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
No definite thing, but I would say he went on
from the medicine clori in fifty two. He went on
for about twelve years. That would bring him up to
a late sixties, early seventies.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
About that time, or.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
I think perhaps he may have still continued briefly till
the late seventies, because he did distone quite late, quite late.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
But he didn't want to know after after a while.

Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
And you know, it's like everything if The thing about
Evan Horizing is they're always looking for fresh ideas. You know,
styles go got to change, everything's going to change. You're
good to be, I mean it's recidefuled the loss of it,
but a lot of it. And therefore the people who

(01:07:02):
are supplying these ideas and everything, they really do you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Know, they'll pay you the top.

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):
They expect absolutely original thinking all the way through. And
that's the whole point. If you're going to spend thousands
of pounds and put an advert in a paper, and
you're got to had something worth putting in the paper,
you've got to cap somebody who will produced the ideas.
So it's a sort of well, it sort of feeds

(01:07:33):
on itself. Foremost you've got to you've got to pay,
and then it paying very good prices.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Very well. What did he you read the book? You've seen?

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
He cleared one one year he cleared twenty five thousand quid.
That wasn't bad. It wasn't bad.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
Ye, it's who the plates still exist for the book
it was. They don't I can turn it out. They don't.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Talking just the other day into the man who printed
that book? What was it?

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
A place to an accident book? What book would I from?
There was a quitte big absolute film, wasn't they ever say?
It was kind of a met Ley sort of the
remember which is at four so it'd be it'll be on film.
The actual point, I think it was on glass, and
I could have money be longer.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):
Yeah, No, I think in fact that the I mean
somebody said to me only the other day, have you
ever sort of reprinting it? And because the what do
they call it? What's the what's the word the printers
use when they got the all the things laid out,

(01:08:51):
the pages laid out?

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
What do they call that? Got a name?

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
Another composition is it's got an act or technical name.
But I said, no, I don't. I don't have them.
But I had the copywriter of the book, but I
don't have the But all the pictures would have to
be what you say, they all the copyright ninety percent,
you know, the copyright of the home and some of
them early stuff as birds.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
Yes, a big job to put it all together again,
it would. It would about the edition the book before that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Yeah, yeah, before the Bart's Council did the book. So yeah,
they did four books and Bert was amongst them, and
they did with a preface by Tom Hopkinson in Birth's case,
and they did a little much smaller book, but it
was you know, I think it had the two boys

(01:09:51):
on the front cover.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
It did, didn't it? Yes? I had the two boys
on the cover. Yeah, oh sure, with a great interest. Cool.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
I was gonna say, are you a ToolStick a lifetime?
Aren't you all in the all in the space? And
I know whatever it is, do you think you're putting around?
They will always come back and read the book, and
don't that be any questions leave from that?

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Right? Well, how'd you get away? Or whatever you do? Well,
we'll be going around to have a bit of them jump.
Can we still get nowhere?

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
It's just go up to neck it where you gave
out the pickboog book didn't always go around and fill
my pick the costs, I've got the row.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
Oh go a line out of my six book or
swooty Masters, well my death books, all the live bait. Yeah,
I'm ready from the as you ever saw, it's just
that one. The was called current Hope. Oh yeah, oh yes,
you don't kick some night apps. Everything you know, not
by the standard, the sort of thing and where they

(01:11:07):
do the through it all appears, you know, if you
go on book it then that is it called the
citrus bar change always called the Hope on the front
used to be an old.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
Charles Web you ought to go in there and then
they changed it to bas citrus or spot and hope
we've changed it back time. Hokoh, I know what this
is all about.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
She knows how going out.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
Yeah, but she's got some more dinner at stead.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
He'll come and to have the mm.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
Well, if I can do anything.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Orful, you let me know. Yeah, well, well I still
got to sort out the see to Brian Duckerty yeah yeah,
I couldn't got hold of them, but I wanted to
ask him make his mind up a doubt the analogy
because I've said to him, I will tell you of
what happens.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
But do you want my advice? If you can sell them,
to sell them, I wouldn't bother about Brian. I think
if he was going to show interest and then the
would so anything you can, Yeah, you have my permission
to do so.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Good witness the.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
Well, I'm purely right, but it rid of it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:23):
If there is anybody out there wants it then bothering
me to do so.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Well, well, one of them could very well go upstairs.
I don't know Sharon will use it, but it would
be nice to keep one another. I think.

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
Take the best one because better than the other, isn't there, Well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
One of them is earlier. I think one of them
is in nineteen sixty one, and so is any other
one with nineteen seventy two. But they're basically the same,
don't But the earlier one looks nice.

Speaker 3 (01:12:55):
I thought I was going to say, yes it has Yes,
you're quite right, and it looks rich one Charlie used.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
I think he used the later wanting and I'll give
him clean out. And they of course ring verdigree on
the color memory right there, you place all the time,
and that's what happens.

Speaker 3 (01:13:18):
You say, this this place because it had lost it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
It's reason for being here.

Speaker 3 (01:13:25):
We didn't do anything to it, and we if we'd
done anything, we didn't have the money on it. But
other than you know, going doesn't a digital printing, I
couldn't for what we going to do?

Speaker 2 (01:13:38):
Well, it's you know, you have to throw so much
money at it, and then he had to keep on
throwing more and more money. It's better, that is absolutely so.

Speaker 3 (01:13:48):
Being updated all the time, isn't It would have got
to keep it producing those things in order to get
the market.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
But it's sounds roller coaster. No, we follow the same
route at our places. Good showing, and she's she's she's
done enough word to keep her busy. But there's no
way calls really unless you know, looking or another printer
the elephant without to bring their own clients in them.
Then again they're just about coverage.

Speaker 3 (01:14:16):
So well that's the point, isn't it now? I mean
beyond it was at a certain point, it's not. It's not
commercially marble.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Any one, well not since the film just a bit.
Then do you never know? These old photographers, I mean
they got their own next slung pitch and the then
they sell up. So they want them hanging printed on
five a pace?

Speaker 3 (01:14:38):
But who's going to who's going to do it? In
all honesty is what it is?

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
Amazing? You love me? People actually buy a fighting Bears,
don't they? Oh yeah, and they spent an awful lot
of money on Sorry I know.

Speaker 3 (01:14:53):
Because I sell sign come as a birs, princes and
a photographers going and they pay quite a lot of money.
But I tell you what they do pay a lot
of money. It all vintage prints. That seems to be
the way the money market it is, so yeah, so
they've got to be printed at the time they were taken.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Marius and it's going to be a market the negative
soon it if samthas Holder's got a famous image, well
it gets into this setting prints.

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
So the net what's going to happen, I say, truly
had so far is it? I mean they're only going
to find out about the digital side of things after
what fifty years? Nobody knows, do they what's going to
happen and whether in fact you're going to be able
to pat your store on it, whether you're going to
be able to even recall it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Well, then that's the formats and the storage stuff keep
changing every year or two. And you know you can't
read the earlier stuff and he said you can't hold
it up to the light. So you've got an image there.

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
So well, the Imperial Movies who's been digitalizing their collection,
you know, and the girl is doing it should front
She admits they I don't know how many they've done.
They've got millions of negatives, but she says they don't
even know if they're going to be able to.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
Look at them. Yeah, somebody told me about one of
the police forces that put everything onto laser discs. You know,
the twelve and of course they're teddyops. Now she can't
They called it back for me, it's well, that's well,
they asked what he'd given buying old modern ty try

(01:16:34):
and keep working. But there's there's no it's not going
to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:16:40):
Whereas with snakes, you see you can still you could
stop drinking digitally.

Speaker 6 (01:16:45):
Yeah, but you remember talking to that out and out
that they got employed. There some hare saves old negative
because they have to decide which ones. I mean, you
know they the way he works, he can't do them all.
So some have got to just be left. And they

(01:17:05):
are slowly deteriorate, you know, because what's when do you
think in the way Martin that picture poers if sometimes
they wanted to pictures downstairs, nobody's looking at archival it
they at the least at a washing you could give them.
They were wrapped up and put the tin love these

(01:17:27):
thinking old you know these are important numberage tops and
the stinking that way.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
So them negatives are going. He was talking about your
two boys, that is going, I'm so what does he
does he save that? And you know, well that's a
that's the big.

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
Question, isn't it? Which will they say? You know, these
are iconic in but you just said the same rule.
So I mean, I don't know, I don't know about
the answer is. I do know this praise is not
going to be the same

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#26 Bert Hardy - PHOTO TALK - WTF-STOP PODCAST

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