The Resident Builder podcast: August 18, 2024

This week on the show, ZB's Resident Builder Pete Wolfkamp discusses the latest issues impacting the world of construction- and answers questions!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Resident build Up podcast with Peter
Wolfcamp from News Talks at Bay.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
And the grass is overgrown in the yard, even when
the dog.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
Is too old to borrow.

Speaker 4 (00:21):
And when you're sitting at the table trying to have to.

Speaker 5 (00:25):
Start, I have scissor home, even when we leave a
band gone, even when you're there alone, a home. House

(00:47):
is a home, even when those ghost even.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
When you got around from the ones you love your most,
you scream those broken plaints feeling from the wood locals
whisper when they're going to leave, the.

Speaker 5 (01:03):
Neighbor the house, even when wilban, even when you're in there. Loone.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Well, a very good morning, and welcome along to news
Talk set Bes a resident builder on Sunday with me
Peter wolf Camp, the resident builder, looking forward to your calls,
your conversation this morning around all things building and construction.
So I trust you've had a good week. I think
that sense that well, I had that sense that maybe
we had had a very mild winter, escape the worst

(01:44):
of it, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, and a bit of a
reality check. Pretty miserable all day yesterday and certainly not
that much more pleasant this morning. So the markets are
off by the way, that's where probably I would have
been heading anyway, That's beside the point. Good morning, welcome along.
It is an opportunity for you to talk about all
things construction, whether it's a project that is underway and

(02:06):
going well not going well. I mean, I've got a
call from a mate who you know, we often just
call talk about, you know, challenges and the job, those
sorts of things. Friday afternoon, that's not a good time
to get a call from anyone to go, hey, look,
just wondering what the best way forward in this particular
situation was. So if you need to chat about a

(02:28):
project that you've got on, you can do so by
calling eight hundred eighty ten eighty. You can text through
nine two nine two, and you can email Pete at
NEWSTALKZB dot co dot m Z. Yesterday was again I said,
it was a fairly miserable all day, and I set
out in the afternoon to spend a little bit of
productive time in the workshop and then realize that in

(02:50):
order to do what I intended to do, I needed
to keep going in and out of the workshop. I
needed to get gear out of the back of the Masda,
and I just kind of went to be fair, it's
it's miserable and I don't know that I want to
get wet. I'm in the shed. I'm not getting a
wet in their, but can I be bothered one around?
And then as I was tidying up, I found this
offcut of color steel, just flat sheet that I'd got

(03:13):
from me mate who does flashings, and I, ah, that's right.
I was going to make what I call a witch's cap,
so just a good old fashioned cowling or cap for
event pipe. So I've got one hundred bill vent pipe
through a little roof that I built to ventilate the
hot air that builds up in a roof. And when

(03:34):
I did it, I got the guys, the roof is
to flash it, put the penetration through, and I just
put a fixed cap on the top, with the attention
of either finding which is not that easy, a cowling cap,
or having the time to make one. And so then
it was like, now, how do I you do these?
How do you take a flat sheet of steel, a
flat sheet of color steel and turn it into a

(03:57):
conical shape, which prompted to be fair A little bit
of investigation on YouTube where I found lots of videos
about how to make a cone, but not a cap.
And then eventually it popped up and it was like, oh,
that's right, they're actually really really simple to do. So
I got a couple of pieces of paper, compass out,

(04:18):
strapped a mark a pen to it, made one out
of just as a template, and thought, no, it's going
to be slightly too big, made another one, worked out
how much I needed to cut, like a segment to
cut out, then to wrap it around, transferred that across
onto the flat sheet, got the did a dash to

(04:38):
the back of the truck, grabbed all of the cutters
and bits and pieces that I needed, folded that up,
made some little legs on it. Job done. Very productive
afternoon in the end, actually, and I was about to
abandon ship anyway, stick with it is the key there,
there's always a job to do. And then I posted
about it yesterday, just a bit of a funny thing online,

(04:59):
and someone said, is that a to do it cap?
Around to it? Around to it? And I thought, around cap,
I've heard of a round to it cap. I should
go and have a look. So I did a quick
Google search of what's an around to it cap? And
of course it's not there's no such thing, but it
is though one of those jobs. I'll get round to it.

(05:19):
And yes, I did get round to it yesterday and
it felt pretty damn good. Oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty.
Let's rip into it. If you've got a question of
a building nature, and this is a fairly wide field, right.
This can be about compliance and can be about projects,
It can be about contractors, it can be about regulations,
it can be about contracts. Eight hundred eighty ten eighty

(05:40):
and we'll have a crack at all of those issues.
A very good morning to you, Robert.

Speaker 6 (05:45):
Oh, good a, Peter, Robert. I've got a project where
I want to have a sunroom built attached to the house. Yes,
and it's going to be about thirty square meters. Reading
the regulations, you definitely need a building consent.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yeah, I would say so. And I know that that
whole thing around shed you. One of the Building Act
has expanded the scope of work that you can do.
But I think because this is attached to the building,
it's obviously going to be in a sense of habitable space,
as in you'll be able to it'll be fully enclosed.
Otherwise we'd call it a porch. Then I think, yes,

(06:25):
it would require a building consent and also thirty square
meters that's going to add you know, a lot of
footprint to the property. It's a decent sized roof that's
going to go on it. Yep, I would say building consent.

Speaker 6 (06:36):
Oh yeah, it's funny you mentioned about a porch because
a friend of mine says you don't need to get
a consent. He used to be in the building industry,
always off and it's a porch.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yep.

Speaker 6 (06:52):
But you know I read about like you know, the
council catches onto it, you can get fined, it can ash,
you pull it back down. I'd rather just do it
the right way and as long as it's straightforward getting
the building, because it seems like you're allowed to do it.
When I built the house, I built to the maximum

(07:13):
thirty five percent of a five hundred and fifty square
meter section. But it seems like the last few years
you're allowed to add on a bit more.

Speaker 7 (07:26):
Now.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, i'd agree with you and look to be fair.
When we did our extensions, gosh, more than twenty years ago,
it was the same thing. You know, I think our
permissible site coverage was thirty five percent or thirty seven
percent with a bit of discretion. Typically nowadays it's not
terribly difficult to get to fifty percent.

Speaker 6 (07:45):
Right in the middle of the section that's not close
to the line or anything. So fine, I wouldn't need
to get neighbors permissioned. I live in a private right
of way.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, it's it's fee simple. It's not a cross lease property.

Speaker 6 (08:02):
No, it's not a cross the way across lease.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
Then you're I don't think you'll need neighbors permission. It
sounds like it's not going to be terribly close to
the boundary. But I think you've probably strayed into an
area that I feel that we haven't discussed enough at
the moment that when you said it should be relatively
straightforward to get a building consent, And I would imagine
that anyone who's applied for a building consent in the

(08:26):
last couple of years probably is listening to the shaking
their head, going oh, mate, you don't know the drama
that you're in for. And unfortunately, I think the overwhelming
sense we have around the process of gaining a building
consent is just it's really challenging, seemingly now, if you

(08:47):
and your project should be relatively straightforward, right, it's a
relatively simple structure, there's an existing building, there, there's no
issues around services, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It
should be if it's well drawn, it goes and it
gets stamped and you can get underway with it. But
I just almost everyone I talk to at the moment

(09:10):
talks about the process of getting a building consent is
really really challenging for a number of different reasons. Part
of that might be, you know that some I would
imagine that there's a large number of building consent applications
and plans that go into council that are poorly done,
and so counsel has to keep asking questions. But in
some cases, I think counsel just seems to be able

(09:31):
to make what is relatively straightforward incredibly difficult at the moment. Okay,
but I don't mean to put you off. I'm just saying,
if suddenly you put it in and then it becomes
a bit of a drama, don't be surprised.

Speaker 6 (09:46):
Okay, Yeah, So what's the resource consent? I don't need that.

Speaker 3 (09:53):
I think it's unlikely that you would need a resource consent.
So typically a resource consent is triggered when essentially resource
consents part of the Resource Management Act, and it's going, well,
if you're going to use a resource and air, water,
et cetera, then where you've got to explain how what
you do is going to impact on the environment. Now,

(10:14):
in your situation, you're going to add thirty square meters
of impermeable cover to the property. Is that does that
trigger a requirement for a resource consent? Probably not, because
you're still well under let's say a fifty percent maximum
site coverage that you might be able to have. Are
you in a historic zone and you're doing something to

(10:37):
a house that's protected by the nineteen forty or pre
nineteen forty heritage overlay? Probably not, you know those sorts
of things. So I would have thought that very unlikely
that you would have had you would need a resource consent.

Speaker 6 (10:53):
Oh okay, I've just got two more questions. My wife,
she actually wants to build it bigger. I said, our
thirty square meters that season the regulations? Is there any
chart site that counts will prove of you put forward
plans for sun room over thirty square meters?

Speaker 3 (11:13):
I think if you went to over thirty square meters.
They just consider it in addition to the property right.
And again, if you've got the site coverage and you're
not infringing height in relation to boundary, so it's not
your intention to build let's say within a meter of
your neighbor's boundary, it's not going to be too tall.
Then again that should be relatively straightforward.

Speaker 6 (11:34):
Okay. Then the other thing is materials. I researched a
little bit. There's aliminion versus PVC, and straight away I
thought I prefer alaminion, but I heard that PVC is
a lot stronger, but a bit more costly. And building
in Wellington like here, I'm on a high wind zone,

(11:58):
I'm on a ridge. Do you know much about the
difference between.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
Seem to see? I mean you PVC has made its
way into the market. It's been around for a while,
but it's a little bit more mainstream whether or not
they would do fabrication for something like because when you
say a sunput or a sunroom, are you thinking that
the whole thing will come essentially prefabricated, like it's an

(12:28):
off site manufacturer. So you do a slab and then
the whole thing would come kit setted, let's say, and
be installed on site. So you're not talking about you know,
conventional construction where you do a slab, you'd frame up
some walls, add some windows and a roof to it.
You want all of that to be in a sunroom style.

Speaker 6 (12:50):
Yeah, what I understand? What of research for some companies
as pre YEP they and install it. I hear that
the PVC I thought it was just completely all PVC,
But does it have a metal component inside the PVC
to make it stronger?

Speaker 3 (13:09):
That No, So the actual joinery suite that you're talking about,
if it's uPVC, the extrusions are all are the structural elements, right,
so you don't need anything else that goes with it.
I haven't experienced it where they've used uPVC in a sunroom,
like most of the sunrooms that I've seen have typically

(13:32):
either been timber or aluminium. But you know, one of
the things I guess you've got where you will probably
be quite heavily impacted with new building consent rules and
new Building Code regulations in terms of energy efficiency, is
you're going to be adding a great deal of glazing, right,

(13:52):
so the performance of the glazing has got to be
very very good in order for you not to in
a sense be penalized for putting so much more glass
into your building. Right, so you're going to find that
the performance standard required of the glazing is going to
be quite high in order for you to achieve H

(14:15):
one compliance. Okay, yeah, maybe they'll take an attitude that
goes because are you going to still have doors between
the sunroom and your existing house?

Speaker 7 (14:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (14:29):
Currently the house is, it's got sliding doors, it goes
out on patio.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
Yes, yeah, and you want to encompass that patio and
create the sunroom there, but your your intention is not
to remove those sliding.

Speaker 6 (14:44):
Doors, not to remove them.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Okay, that changes things because essentially what you're adding to
the outside isn't going to impact the thermal efficiency of
your house because you're keeping your doors there, right, So
then you're not going to have to build to as
high a standard in terms of thermal efficiency for the
sunroom as you will if you were intending to take

(15:08):
those doors out and include that space into your house
without means of locking it away or.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
So.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
That makes it a lot more simple. Worth investigating the
uPVC because there may well be some advantages. I'm not
aware of anyone who does them a new PVC. Typically
they've been always an aluminium worth investigating. Absolutely, yes, good
luck with the process. Okay, all the very best, All right,

(15:41):
take care, Robert, My pleasure love with them. In fact,
talking about glazing, we've got Nick Hardy Jones from Metro
Performance Glass joining us at around seven forty five this
morning to talk about exactly what we were just discussing
there with Robert, the changes to H one of the
Building Code. This talks about energy efficiency and thermal performance

(16:02):
of our building envelope and obviously because we like to
have windows up with a lot of glass and that
glass now has to comply. So with a bit of
a deep dive into H one compliance and glazing with
Nick Hardy Jones from Metro Performance Glass at around seven
forty five this morning, we'll take a short break. Francis
is waiting for us. We'll come to her in just
a moment. If you would like to join us, OH,

(16:22):
eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call.
We'll have a spear line for you in just a moment.
If you'd like to join us, OH, eight hundred eighty
ten eighty is the number. To call, just off the
back of Robert's comment about going wanting to add a
thirty square meter sun room, do I need a consent?
I think you probably do for the scale of it,
and then okay, well, hopefully that'll be relatively easy and

(16:46):
you could probably hear sort of a sharp intake of
breath from my point of view or from me going,
it's probably not going to be And I tell you what,
just a quick opinion on my part. All of this
focus at the moment around not so much the h
one changes. I love the way in which building is
so political at the moment.

Speaker 8 (17:04):
Right.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
There's so much discussion and discourse around building, and around
regulations and around affordability, and around who controls the process,
et cetera, et cetera, and much of it is focused
on trying to gain efficiencies by allowing the whole debate
around the sixty square meter granny flat thing right, Submissions

(17:28):
ended for that would be interesting to see what some
of the feedback comes back at in the next couple
of weeks and to see what decision the government makes
so extending Schedule one of the Act, allowing for more
work to be able to be done without necessarily requiring
a building consent, all of which is the intention seems
to be to make things more affordable, to speed up
the process. But I wonder whether the focus is a

(17:50):
little bit misguided, that in fact, the focus should be
on changing the consenting process and can ultimately changing the
joint and several liability from councils. So counsels, I think
have a real reluctance to they have such a low

(18:11):
risk attitude that they're adding hurdles into the process of
getting your building consent because they end up being the
only one remaining when the building goes wrong. So maybe
it's actually our consenting process and the liability side of
it that needs attention, not playing around the edges going

(18:33):
oh well, maybe you can do more work without a consent.
More on that later. Oh eight hundred and eighty ten
eighty is the number to call. Francis a very good morning.

Speaker 9 (18:41):
Welcome, welcod morning morning. Yes, I'm meaning about a problem
in my drive way two meters from the garage door.
I had a hole appear in the gravel driveway about
the size of a dinner plate. So I rang an
engineer in Auckland I know, and we measured it and

(19:04):
it goes directly about ninety centimeters in one direction and
about forty in another. And he said, put a stick
in it and check there was water in that in
the hole further in quite a long way in. So
he suggested I ring a plumber. I had a plumber

(19:26):
come round quite quickly actually, And they've suggested they suspect
it's a collapse soak pit in the driveway. Yes, now
I don't, and that it would be I'd have to
they have to do. They poured water down one of
the down pipes in the garret and said, yes, the

(19:50):
water is going there, but what do you suggest The
engineers suggested that it could be a collapsed very old pipe,
you know, from a long time ago. They have said
that it to do it correctly. If it is a

(20:11):
collapse soak pit, that it's going to cost a considerable
amount of money. And I'm wondering if you've got any
advice about this.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, sure, yeah. So it's a gravel driveway, so it's
not concreted, and it's a couple of meters from the house,
and when you pour water down the down pipe you
can hear it or see it gurgling at the bottom.
Of this whole lit.

Speaker 9 (20:35):
I didn't hear the plumber's heard it.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
Yeah, okay, on and off? Yeah sure, sure, I think Francis,
I probably wouldn't describe it as a collapse soakage pit
because the way that soakage pits work is there a
hole in the ground filled with rubble or with scoria,
and they don't typically collapse. Now, possibly it's a chamber
that's collapsed. That might have happened, but I think it's

(21:02):
more likely that it's an old drainage pipe that's collapsed
or jointed, and so water is flowing into there and
then scouring out all of the fill around it, and
that's what's caused effectively a sinkhole in your driveway. I
would have thought that the people to come and open

(21:22):
all of that up is actually a drain layer. So
you'd be looking for an experienced drain layer who would
come and excavate the area, find both ends of the pipe,
remove the part that's collapsed, reconnect them, and then check
that water is flowing to Do you actually have stormwater
connection as in stormwater to a council line?

Speaker 9 (21:45):
No, No, this is Masterton City, Yeah no, it's.

Speaker 10 (21:55):
Everywhere.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
Okay, then I wonder whether it is like an old
chamber that has collapsed, in which case, yes, it could
be quite expensive to remove the existing one. Add in
a new chamber. Maybe go through the process of getting
it tested in terms of how much water can go
into that chamber, how much it can contain. Hopefully you

(22:19):
won't have to do things like investigate the ground conditions
to check the suitability for sokage. It does get a
little bit complicated after that. I think a drain layer,
like a local experienced drain layer, would be the person
to get They'll be the one doing the work. Now,
some plumbers are drain layers as well, but not necessarily.

(22:40):
So you want a drain layer, not necessarily a plumber, right.

Speaker 9 (22:44):
Well, the the manager of the plumbing firm who does
do drain lay in they are coming on Monday morning,
and I think the city councils coming on Monday morning
as well, the man from the city council because there's
no drainage plan for this particular house. It's an old house.

Speaker 11 (23:07):
Yeah, it's a ninety house.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Well, without wanting to be overly cautious, who invited the
council representative?

Speaker 9 (23:18):
I did? I ran, I ran because it was three
thirty on a Friday.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
I understand, and I didn't want this.

Speaker 9 (23:30):
It's quite close to the house, yes and a half,
and I didn't want the side of the house clap.

Speaker 7 (23:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
Sure, I understand that. I'm going to put this as
delicately as I can. Is there any way to uninvite
the council inspector.

Speaker 9 (23:52):
I don't know. Probably they just said I'd send someone
around on Monday.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
Certainly, just make sure that your drainage guy is there
at the same time as the council inspector, and ideally
a little bit beforehand. The reason I say this is
that what I don't want to see happen is that
council comes along and then they look at it and
they say, Okay, look, I'm really sorry, Francis, but we're

(24:21):
going to have to make an official note about this
on the file. We're going to require you to get
a building consent to cover the drainage work. We need
you to upgrade your stormwater connection, et cetera, et cetera,
and the job becomes a much bigger job than repairing
a broken pipe. Right, So I'm trying to ensure that
that doesn't happen. So between you and I as if

(24:46):
no one was listening, I would probably bring council on
Monday and say, look, actually the matter is being handled
by a registered drain layer. There's no need for you
to come out. Thank you very much for offering to
come out and try that, and then get your drain
layer to look at it, see whether they come up
with a good, practical, sensible solution for you, and then

(25:09):
go from there. But I think not saying that it
will get into a much bigger job, but it's I
think you can handle this with a suitable contractor.

Speaker 9 (25:20):
Right, Thank you very much. That was my brother's a
mechanical engineer, and I rang him and he's done building
all around the world and he gave me the advice
to ring a plumber and drain lab. But I had
already rang. I rang the council. Yeah, to give a
drainage plan. That's all I wanted.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yes, here, look, and to be fair, you know a
lot of old council records, well there was a period
of time where well you know, you've had to submit
as built plans for quite a while. So if you
did want to find out what the council have, you
could request the property bag and the council file from council,

(26:05):
they might be to do that for you or get
the drain layer to do that on your behalf. See
how you go there, let us know how you get on. Francis.
I'm always curious with these ones.

Speaker 9 (26:14):
Might chauple of weeks because I've got a few medical
We'll get back.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
Please do.

Speaker 9 (26:20):
Thank you very very much, lovely to talk to you.

Speaker 3 (26:22):
All the very best, Take care, God bless Francis. I
will explain my reluctance to have council involved in a moment.
It is six thirty six eight hundred eighty ten eighty
is the number to call if you've got a project
on it gives a call eight hundred eighty ten eighty
your new books, he'd be quick text before we chat

(26:43):
with Christine. Hey Pete, I'm a builder in a smaller
territorial authority, but I build out but build access for tas,
so he's got access to four territorial authorities local councils. Basically,
over fourteen years, I've built over five hundred houses and
the consent process is, as you describe it, an absolute nightmare.

(27:04):
It becomes a game like a school teacher checking for
spelling mistakes. They're so scared of what if and looking
for the elephant that is not in the room, all
at the cost or frustration of the end user. And
how or where do you go to complain about their
pedantic questions. I could write a book on the subject,
and look, he's you know, even if you try and

(27:24):
take a more nuanced or balance view, the texture is
probably right. And you'd have to say, if you've built
five hundred houses and dealt with five hundred building consents,
I can imagine you'd have a long list of those questions.
And you know, I'm always reluctant to be fair to
you know, poke at councils because it seems like they're

(27:46):
a big, slow moving target and quite easy to sort
of put the boot into. And that's not my intention.
But you also have to listen to the end user,
ie builders, developers, people involved in the construction sector, and
listen to their constant frustration at how slow the process is,
how often pedantic it is, how unable they are to

(28:11):
get sensible responses to reasonable requests, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera, And go all of the government's focus on
sort of freeing up, or making housing affordability more efficiency,
et cetera. Is focusing on changing bits of legislation, but
maybe it should focus on the actual consenting process. And
for good reason, counsel are extremely reluctant to allow anything

(28:37):
that might come back and basically bite them in the
ass to be built because they end up being the
only one left over when you know the developer has
gone from being developer twenty twenty two corporation to develop
a twenty twenty three corporation, when building firms disappear, et cetera,
et cetera. Now, part of the process of the LBPS

(28:57):
thing was that it was always individuals, right, so you
could pursue an individual if I do a record of works,
it's my number that goes on there, and that's not
my company. I can fold my company, but I'm still
personally liable as an LBP. It's still on my license.
But maybe all of this focus on efficiency and that

(29:18):
should actually be a focus on liability. This whole thing
about joint and several. In fact, we're going to have
Mike Thornton, who's a lawyer specializing and building contract law
with us again in the next couple of weeks. We
should talk about joint and several liability and is there
a better model that perhaps allows more responsibility to be
taken by the contractors for the quality of the work,

(29:40):
but backed up by insurance. If you don't have insurance
public liability insurance, contractor insurance, insurance, etc. Then you won't
be able to build. You just have to have it
and then any issues with quality going forward come back
to the insurer. Seems like a more straightforward and it's
to be fair. This is how they work overseas in

(30:02):
a large number of countries that I'm aware of. We
can talk about that too. Eighty ten eighty is the
number to call Christine.

Speaker 12 (30:08):
Good morning, Good morning, And that's what I want to
talk about.

Speaker 11 (30:13):
Consents.

Speaker 12 (30:16):
I'm just getting a job done. At the moment. The
draftsman has done all the plans that the builder has done,
It drawn up a thing. Now. The thing what I'm
doing is I've got about about one hundred year old villa.
I'm closing in the return verandah and that's going to

(30:36):
become an en suite to the master droom.

Speaker 8 (30:39):
Yep.

Speaker 12 (30:40):
Now, the draftsman told me that I don't need a
building consent. I need a plumbing consent. The builder tells
me I need a building consent, and I said to him, well,
the draftsman said I didn't. And now these two guys
have worked together before on my house too, when I

(31:01):
had completely gutted when I bought it about five or
six years ago, and the builder was telling me he
now works with the draftsman because he's a really good guy.
They've been working.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
All that's great.

Speaker 12 (31:11):
I do not want to go to council and ask
them what's the situation.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
I would have thought that it definitely requires a building consent, right,
not just a plumbing consent. And because it's.

Speaker 12 (31:25):
Not going outside the original parameters of the house.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
True, but you are impacting on You're impacting well, it
impacts on h one because you're you're exterior cladding and
your exterior envelope changes, right, So it's that's a building issue.

Speaker 12 (31:49):
You're putting away, we're using the original weather boards, we're
reusing them on the outside of the building.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Yep, so where they are at the moment you're taking
them off and flipping them to the outside, but you're
still installing new joinery. You are changing the envelope, so
you're changing the footprint of the house. I would have
thought ninety nine percent sure that that triggers a requirement
for a building consent.

Speaker 12 (32:16):
That's all right, I just wanted to, you know, to
get somebody else.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
It would be really interesting to get something in writing
from the drafts person as to why they felt that
work could be done without essentially under Schedule one of
the Building Act, which allows for some building work to
be done without necessarily requiring a building consent. And also
what type of shower are you installing? What type of
shower system do you want to install?

Speaker 12 (32:42):
Oh, just a normal box shower.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
Okay, prefabricated one. You're not going to do waterproofing and tiles?

Speaker 12 (32:48):
No, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
Because often that triggers a requirement for a building consent
because it's around the waterproofing system that goes into it.
I would have thought that, because effectively you're increasing the
habitable space of your house by taking an outdoor space
i e. The verandah and making that habitable space, that

(33:11):
would trigger the requirement for a building consent, regardless of
the amount of space that you're taking. But again, you know,
if the draft person is convinced that you don't need
one you'd want him to have, you know, chapter and
verse here is schedule one of the Act, and here
is the reasons that you don't and I just can't

(33:34):
see it somehow.

Speaker 12 (33:36):
No, No, it's just that I was confused. You know,
I'm not the professional here.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
And I tell you what the other thing. And it
was a comment from Robert, our first caller as well.
He said, you know, I just want to make sure
I get everything done well because I don't want counsel
to come and inspect it later on. The chances of
council coming and looking at it very very small. But
what I've found doing sort of pre purchase inspections for
people is that often it's the insurer and the bank

(34:06):
and that that get really really cautious about unconsented work. Right,
So you know, if you go ahead and do a
job and you think I don't really need a consent
so I won't get one, turns out you did need one,
and then you put the house on the market. Later on,
someone doing their due diligence on the property may identify
the fact that that work actually did require a consent.

(34:27):
Then you don't have one. Then trying to get a
CoA certificate of acceptance. It's a lot of work. The
burden of proof now on coas is almost as high
as a building consent. You are better off just getting
the building consent. And again this kind of circles back
to my point, which is maybe we need to look
at how we do the building consent process to take

(34:49):
to de risk it from a council point of view
that allows it to be you know, yours is the
classic example.

Speaker 10 (34:55):
Right.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
You could go to a designer who's registered. They're an
LBP obviously and they've got a design license. You're going
to work with a contractor who's also a licensed building
practition Your designer should have insurance for their work. Your
builder should ideally have insurance for their work, although it's
not mandatory. And you could go ahead and submit to

(35:17):
counsel a set of plans, essentially saying this is what
I intend to do, and then go ahead and build it.
And then if there's a problem with it because you've
got insurance, and someone says in five years time you've
sold the house and oh, actually i've got a leak
in the corner. I wonder if it's poor workmanship. Yes
it is, Oh well, that's okay because that contractor had
insurance and I'm going to use the insurance to rectify it.

(35:39):
Counsel don't have anything to do deal with it. That's
I wonder whether that's kind of where we should be heading.

Speaker 12 (35:45):
That's not going to make you because you can be saying, oh, well,
you can have like a shed door or an outdoor room.
You can build it to such and say, and you
don't need a building permit, and they're.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
Right there, But then see what happens there is then
there's a whole lot of ifs and butts. Right, so
it's not attached to the main house, which yours is
going to be, it's got to be a certain distance
from the boundary, it's only to be a certain height.
It's got to be low risk. Now, what you're doing
is increasing the footprint of your house, albeit underneath an
existing roof. But you want to make sure that there's

(36:21):
insulation in the ceiling, there's going to be insulation in
the walls. You're going to want to make sure that
the joinery is right, that by you're not inadvertently doing
something that's going to impact the rest of your house.
And that's that whole thing about it being connected. If
it was a ten square me to sleep out in
the backyard that if it wasn't great, it's low risk.
Well that's different, but you know, because it's attached to

(36:43):
the house. I think. So it'd be interesting to again
to know how you get on if you go back
to your designer. But I'm pretty sure that work requires
a building consent. Yeah, lovely to talk. Thank you very
much and good luck with the process. Take care bother,
thank you and New Stalks CB will take a short break.
It is ten minutes away from seven your Newstalks CB.
If you've got a question, oh eight hundred eighty ten

(37:04):
eighty is the number to call. Quick response from a
regular correspondent who I really appreciate his input, actually, Craig morning. Yes,
draftsman needs to be an LBP for design yep. And
yes consent needed for the building work and the plumbing.
So both the building and the plumbing work. This is
with regard to Christine's discussion about essentially inclosing a return

(37:30):
VERANDAH on an existing building on an old villa and
adding an on suite into that space. Some advice was
that it didn't require a building consent. My feeling is
it definitely does, and that's backed up by Craig who
works in this field as well. So really appreciate that

(37:50):
council says check LBP. Council says that they need to
check the LBP. So should we be able to check
the qualifications of the council staff assessing our application? Possibly
a little bit unkind But what is the industry doing
about this building consent nonsense? Don't be scared to answer Pete, Well,

(38:11):
I hear what you're saying. I think we need controls
right as my opinion, we need controls over what's built.
We need to protect the safety of people. We also
need to protect the investment of people. And I think
we've got a little bit of a short memory when
it comes to the impact of bad building performance on

(38:33):
the lives of Joe public basically. And there's still people
who have had their lives turned upside down, their financial
lives in particular turned upside down by leaky buildings, seeing
their largest asset deteriorate in value with no redress, or

(38:54):
if there is redress. It's incredibly complicated and takes an
enormously long time when you know something that they thought
was going to be their biggest asset in their life
really starts turning to mush around them. So you know,
think back to that. That's why we have building controls
in place. But typically the way it works is that

(39:15):
all of the responsibility for that building ends up being
primarily on councils because council are, to quote and often
use phrase, the last man standing. The developer's gone, the
builder's gone, the contractors are gone, the companies that supplied
the product might even have gone, and councils the last
one standing. And people go, well, you gave it a

(39:35):
building consent, therefore you're responsible for it. So is there
a better model? Lots of discussion in that area around
more extensive use of insurance to manage risk in a sense,
or to ensure not ensure compliance, but to ensure that
if something goes wrong, someone's going to be there to
pick up the pieces, and should that be the insurer. Now,

(39:58):
there'll be a whole lot of criticism about that, and
it's putting money into the pockets of multinationals blah blah blah,
but ultimately it may well be a better way forward.
So we could talk about that in the next hour
of the show as well. We've got news sport and
we're the top of the art. Then we'll come back
with your calls. Oh eight hundred and eighty ten eight.
You can call us now back after the news.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Scared today, build.

Speaker 5 (40:23):
The board.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
Your news talks there be welcome back to the show.
Oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call.
If you've got a question of the building nature. It
will rip into it. Lots of texts around councils. We'll
get into those in just a moment. Pete, good morning
to you.

Speaker 8 (40:41):
Pete.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
How you doing good.

Speaker 13 (40:44):
I've got a Beasily home. They're pretty stocked staying it.
I'm just thinking about replacing the a bath. It's yeah,
replacing the barth the basin and to use it. And
it's got serotin around and now there's no permanent need
for them, is there?

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Hang on, you're talking about what if you're going to
rip out the existing serotone that's around a bath? Is
a shower over the bath that sort of thing? Yeah, yeah,
and what do you intend to replace it with.

Speaker 9 (41:15):
The same?

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Okay, then no, that's like for like, there's no requirement
to get a building consent to do any of that work.

Speaker 13 (41:23):
What about if you I'll get a bit older and
I say I want to get rid of the bar,
still use the same plumbing that's there and put a
shower box and just put a vanity in. But just
basically getting rid of the bar yep, and putting a
box and if.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
It's a pre formed shower so tray and liner that
type of thing. You can also do that without this
without requiring a building consent. Typically waterproof showers as in
you know, waterproofing with tiles over it. That's what triggers
a requirement for a building consent. So if you stay
away from that, you don't need a building consent.

Speaker 13 (42:00):
That's what it was. Basically the bath plumy be the
same one am now. So basically the play is a
big costs on doing plumbing side just going to leave
all the plumbing the same.

Speaker 3 (42:12):
And to be fair, I did a project like that
back in twenty twenty, checked all the REGs and absolutely
I didn't change the footprint. I didn't change the number
of fittings inside the bathroom. I simply removed like yours.
It was a nineteen sixties property. I pulled out the
bath and where the existing plumbing was that's where I

(42:32):
put in a preform shower, so you know, PVC or
whatever it is, fiberglass tray and liner and kit set
doors into the same position. Replaced the toilet, but again
it already had a sanitary fitting right there. Didn't change
any of the actual waste pipe, and changed the vanity,
but the vanity went in pretty much the same position

(42:53):
as the old one. So none of that requires a
building consent. Keep records of it because people like to
see what you did. So you know, if you get
something from the plumber to say, hey, look I've done
the work and I certify it. You get something maybe
from the builder who does the work just saying look
I've done it in accordance with the code. And then
if you sell the house later on, someone goes, oh,

(43:15):
well that's not the original bathroom. Is it done properly?
You've got a little bit of documentation that says it's
done correctly. Absolutely, yep, exactly that. Go for it, and
make sure you add extraction, decent extraction into the Yeah. Excellent,

(43:38):
all right, all the best, Thanks Pete, Take care Leicester.
Let's talk about consents.

Speaker 11 (43:43):
Yeah, hey, I haven't see you for a couple of weeks.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
But the.

Speaker 11 (43:53):
Yeah, just taking that process through, and particularly with the
insurance idea, So you can't insure against the criminal way sure,
look of the plane. Okay, so who's going to take
out the insurance? Is the are going to take out
insurance to get against doing bad work, or as the
homelownder going to take out insurance against getting a bad builder.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
I think it's got to be the builder has to
have public liability insurance. Public liability the version of public
liability that covers the work that they do for let's
say a period of ten years to them at least.

Speaker 11 (44:31):
Okay, then you've got continuum of insurance, which means they
can insurance. Now well, actually I'm going to think it
would more cover under professional indemnity or bad advice.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
Yep.

Speaker 11 (44:43):
Right, So if they do, there's no continuum of insurance.
If that builder closes down this business and therefore the
insurance lapses anyway.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
No, there's there's a again, there's not a way around that.
That's the wrong phrase. So I was talking with someone
the other day, actually, who's a building survey, right, and
so as a professional building survey you have to have insurance, right,
professional insurance and when you return higher. The type of
policy that you buy is one that will you have

(45:11):
to continue to pay for that policy for ten years
after the point of time that you retire. And you
could do exactly the same with someone who's a licensed
building practitioner like myself. Now, theoretically in ten years, I'm
able to get the super right. So if I was
doing a project today and in seven years time, when
I reached that age, I've still got three years of

(45:34):
responsibility for that project. I would buy insurance that has
a continuity of care of insurance. That means that if
there was an event after the time that I'd stopped
working and been licensed as an LBP, there would still
be insurance cover for the work that I'd done.

Speaker 11 (45:52):
How do I, as a QUS to calculate ten years
of insurance companies of insurance.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
Well, the insurance company will do that.

Speaker 11 (46:01):
So it's ten years per that house or ten years
over my business and fault. You see, It's it's a
difficult one.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
I'm not suggesting that it's you know, I guess what
we're faced with is a situation where almost everyone and
I'm really cautious around bagging council right, and I'm very
aware that there is an enormous amount of complexity around
public safety and liability and ensuring that we have good

(46:29):
controls over building. But I think that you have to
be wilfully naive to say that we have not tied
ourselves up in knots with the building consent process at
the moment where it has become so complex, so onerous,
that people are looking for ways to get around it. Right,
And so all of this discussion around in some cases

(46:52):
housing affordability and what you can do without necessarily requiring
a consent, speeding up the consent process seem that the
roadblock to all of that seems to be that joined
in several liability where councils are going to be held responsible. Now,
if we can free them up from that responsibility by

(47:12):
substituting it with another form of responsibility eye insurances, then
isn't that a process that we should look at.

Speaker 11 (47:21):
Okay, I want to raise that one topic, but I yet,
for many years I've griped about the industry around this topic,
particularly the involvement, and I'm not the last or first.
I can remember, going back two decades ago as the
guy Fox that used to be always in the Certified

(47:42):
Buildings magazine Wellington and I rustle out in New Ployment.
I commented about this for years and when I looked
into it, to me, the industry needs to change the
model completely, and the two I found it were the
best with the American model most not every state and

(48:02):
the Dutch model. And essentially they run charter building contracts.
So chart building concept. It means that you can only
do works that peers in the industry are the builders
recognize you capable of that. The consents can only be
gathered by a builder. As it stands at the moment,
your teenage daughter could apply for a consent and get it.

(48:25):
Architects are continue You're getting consent works that they draw
that are aren't buildable or affordable, and we have a
broken indus and excessive costs. I'll tell you my figure
for free quoting is about fifteen percent of the industry
revolves around free quoting, and I would say at least

(48:46):
twelve percent of that is inefficient. In other words, we're
losing twelve percent or twelve percent of the cost of
building revolves around the notion of free quoting. So the
whole thing needs to be looked at. It's broken. I
don't believe it works at all, and I don't even
think taking counsel out of the process is going to
fix it. I think we need a completely new way

(49:07):
of doing it in deliveries.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
And I think that when the LBP scheme was introduced,
that might have been part of the vision that they
had for it. Right, So the whole thing, you know,
that that shift from or that that move towards saying
we have restricted building work which can only be done
or supervised by an LBP. But what we haven't done

(49:30):
is then made insurance manditory for lbps. And so if I,
as an LBP do some building work, yeah, theoretically I'm
responsible for it, but it's I'm only going to be
held responsible when it goes through a court case, right,
and there's some judgment. And in the meantime, you know,

(49:50):
a client is left with poor workmanship that they have
to struggle with for years and years and years while
they go through the legal system to try and get redress.
Whereas you know, what you're saying is in the Netherlands
and in the United States. I've got some familiarity through
a maide of mine who's a lawyer who is works
in Sweden right now. He's an interesting combination of a

(50:12):
lawyer and a essentially a property developer, so very familiar
with the hands on side of building, but also he
has that legal background. And there the whole thing is
driven or administered by insurance as well. That's the insurer
takes the risk for the building. The council has some involvement,
but more as a record keeper, not as the last

(50:34):
man standing. So you know, there are there are models,
because I mean, we're not the only country in the world.
They're not the only you know, first world country in
the world that's got building consents and regulations around building controls.
So there probably is a better model, and I agree
with you. I think that we do need to find

(50:55):
a better model that says, you know, and especially in
this this is where like this whole thing around the
sixty square meter granny flat thing that might not require
a building consent. What they're they're really saying. I think
the crux of that is it is so onerous, so
difficult to get a building consent for that type of work.
We're going to take it away from the building consent
and allow you to do it with all of these

(51:16):
other rules and regulations in place, whereas if there was
a much more straightforward way of getting consent for these
sorts of work, you could still get consent for it.
But because there's not the enduring liability with the council,
it'll sit with an insurer that will allow counsel to
process them a lot quicker because they're not being held
responsible for it ultimately. And look all a text has

(51:37):
said and here, look, you know, hey, Pete, I think
of councils like the police. No one wants to know them,
but when it suits them, they want them to be
there and they want their help. Unfortunately, you can't have
it both ways. I understand that comment absolutely, So I'm
saying that there has to be a way via It's
going to be insurance, right, and that's going to be
putting money into the pockets of multinationals. And people get

(52:01):
all upset about that and all the rest of it.
But you know, try and convince me of another way
and I'll listen to it. Good of you to call
Lester always a pleasure than say in touch take care
of Oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the number
to call. Take a short break at around seven forty
five we're going to catch up with Nick Hardy Jones
from Metro Performance Glass. Lots and lots and lots of

(52:21):
discussion at the moment around H one about the possibility
of rolling back H one standards which have only just
been increased. And obviously, if we're talking about the exterior
of our building, glazing glass is a big part of that.
So how do how does glass work with H one?
We'll have a discussion with Nick Hardy Jones. If you've
got any specific glazing questions, actually, feel free to flick

(52:44):
them through and I'll see if we can get to
those as well if they're relevant. Oh, eight hundred eighty
ten eighty is the number to call. The couple of
questions around or no comments really the texts having a
great time. Actually, gents, with all due respect, we are

(53:06):
never going to get away with circumventing the council and
getting a building consent. It's the council process that needs addressing.
Let's face it, the fact as it could be done
a whole lot better. They cause a whole lot of
issues because it's so slow and they're overly pedantic. And
again I'm not you know, I have some sympathiefic counsel
as well, in the sense that I think they probably
end up with a whole lot of building consent applications

(53:27):
plans landing on their desk that are poorly done, and
so you know they're sending it back going please explain.
You haven't included this, You've got no decent evidence for this,
you haven't proved a compliance pathway. And I suspect that
a reasonable number of the people that are complaining about
the building consent process I getting your building consent from

(53:50):
counsel are complaining without realizing that the quality of what
they're giving them is rubbish basically, and that's why counsel
needs to keep asking questions. Flip side to that is
I am personally aware, as in firstand knowledge of building
consents that have been submitted where the RFIs have been
unreasonable and in one case, completely and utterly idiotic. And

(54:14):
I say that unreservedly, where it just showed an enormous
lack of knowledge on the part of the person processing
the building consent application, that they didn't understand some very
basic elements of either building science or building compliance and
asked questions about it. I had a response to a

(54:37):
CCC application at one stage that asked me how I
had provided ventilation to the subfloor space, and that was
an RFI to a CCC application. The building had a
concrete slab. I was very tempted to reply, oldrill some

(54:57):
holes in the slab and allow airflow, but I thought
that that would probably be unwise. So, you know, I mean,
they happen, and people make mistakes, and I get that,
and they're off and overworked and all the rest of it.
But it does point to a real some real challenges
with the building consent process. How does it work if
the company goes bust before the ten years is up?

(55:19):
What recall would I have? Is there some insurance, like
a liability insurance that can respond? Yeah, there are that's
the thing. You can get insurances that extend beyond the
life necessarily of the company. There's got to be a solution. Certainly,
we need to investigate them. Oh eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty is that number to call? Hello there, Allen,

(55:40):
Good morning, Good morning. Indeed, is it a good morning
where you are, because it's pretty damn miserable there to
be fair?

Speaker 7 (55:46):
Okay, Yeah, well, I think we must have the same
wead the.

Speaker 3 (55:48):
Format right, at least that's fair and equitable, coequal.

Speaker 7 (55:55):
And what map? Yeah, a question concerning an estimate stroke quote. Yes,
I'm considering upgrading the heat pump and an established home YEP.
I visited what I thought was appropriate shop selling such
things and asked did they have a preferred installer? And
they've sent me a document with some figures on it,

(56:19):
and I'm quite happy with the figures, but there's some
wording in it that I've just needed some clarification. At
one point on the document they refer to this as
a quote and they give me a quote number. Further
on in the document they use the word estimate three times. Yes,
and they say please pay on the estimate, and this

(56:41):
estimate is likely to change without notice. Here is an
omissions accepted, and this estimate is valued, is valid for
seven days. Now. I'm not terribly familiar with such things,
but it seems to be that an estimate and a
quote are two different animals.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
They are, yes, so why are they.

Speaker 7 (57:00):
Using the same word interchangeably?

Speaker 3 (57:04):
Obviously they would have had legal advice and that's how
they've decided to draw it up. And they'll be covering
themselves for things like, you know, they obviously haven't been
out to do a visit to your particular property to
view it, and maybe they don't have any photographs, and
so they're making a series of assumptions around. Okay, so
if we're coming to do a heat pump, we've got
an outdoor unit, We've got some ducting and some conduit

(57:26):
that we need to get from the heat pump unit
to the indoor unit. We need to be able to
mount that indoor unit on the wall and the right location,
and we need to find a pathway to connect the two,
and it's reasonable to assume, let's say that let's say
the time required to do that is four hours, just
off the top of my head. Then they get to

(57:48):
your place and discover, in fact that maybe there's asbestoseness
of feet. They get to your place and discover that,
in fact, there's a beam right there, and the pathway
that they had they can't do, or that the pathway
that they have to find for the condensake pipe that
drains from the high wall unit is more challenging and
has to go further, and perhaps they have to take

(58:09):
off a couple of roof tiles to get access to it, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
So they will perhaps price the work assuming that it
takes four to five hours to install, but if it
takes eight hours, then you're paying for that eight hours.
That's where I would have thought. They've got that whole
changing from quote to estimate. The best way of getting

(58:30):
around it is to say, look, I would actually like
to firm up that price. Could someone come visit the
site and give me a fixed quote for the work?

Speaker 7 (58:41):
So I responded accordingly. I reviewed the estimate YEP, which
your email refers to as a quote, and I would
like to meet with the installer on site YEP. That
invited them to get back to me perfect and I
hope that that can happen within the seven day period.
So it sounds like I've done everything right. But it
just bothered me that they were using this word interchangeably.

(59:02):
And if I just signed on it, paid on it,
and sent it back, then I have been committed to
goodness knows what.

Speaker 3 (59:09):
Yes, but you still do have some protection under the
Consumer Guarantees Act. So there is a requirement that even
with an estimate, the estimate, the final value of the
work cannot exceed And I think it's generally twenty percent
more than the estimate, so if you know it's And
what that does is it prevents someone from saying, let's

(59:30):
say I turn up at your place and I want
you want to replace the driveway. And I looked and went,
oh mate, that'll be five grand. And then I get
diggers in and I box it all up and I
pull the driveway and da da da da da, and
I send you a bill for twelve and you go, well,
hang on, hang on. You said the estimate was fine. Yeah,
I know, but god it was really expensive, and da
da da da, and here's my bill for twelve. Or
you could say, hang on, no, you've got to stay

(59:52):
within twenty percent of the five grand that you estimated,
and therefore I'm only paying this amount or we'll go dispute.
So there are still some other controls around ensuring that
the work is priced fairly.

Speaker 11 (01:00:08):
Well.

Speaker 7 (01:00:09):
A good example is a good example, except the onus
is on me as the householder, to push back against
the yes, yes to have the driveway fit it. And
that just adds another string to the bow.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
As it were, Yeah, I mean it. I suppose what
it does say those as householders and as people entering
into contracts, we do need to read them, we do
need to understand them, and we do reserve the right
to challenge them in the same way that you know.
There's been a fair amount of discussion, in fact, I've
filmed a piece about this the other day, around the
requirement to have a written contract for building work over

(01:00:43):
thirty thousand dollars. Now, typically the responsibility for that in
law is with the contractor to provide the contract, right,
so they have to offer that to the client. There's
no obligation on the part of the client to simply
accept that contract as it is. They can discuss it,
they can amend it, they can perhaps go away and

(01:01:05):
have their own contract prepared by their lawyer and offer
that to the contractor. So you know, you can There's
got a big discussion and a little bit of robust
debate around these things to ensure that both parties needs
are met, but it's not weighted in favor of one party,
which some of these contracts can be. And if I

(01:01:28):
was you is good. You know, if I'm in business, right,
I'm going to protect my interests, right, I want to
protect and you want to protect yours. That's right. But
you are in a fortunate position in the sense that
you have the intellectual ability to understand that work through
the complexity and make a reasoned response to it. And
I guess in some cases people are not. But you

(01:01:50):
are so good on you.

Speaker 7 (01:01:51):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
Good of you to call take care all the best
your news talks. He'd be lots and lots of Texas
is great, morning, Pete. Can you tell me the difference
between a quote and an estimate? Okay, this is me
bush lawyering, and I shouldn't, but I will. So a
quote is typically a fixed price. So if I've said
to you, like the driveway, You've asked me to replace

(01:02:14):
the driveway, so and you want a quote for that.
So I'm going to work out for myself. I'm going
to do my own quantity surveying. I'm going to figure
out how much is there, how much I have to remove,
how much that's going to cost me, how many trucks
I need to use. Then I'm going to figure out
what it's going to cost me to box it, to
lay some mesh in it, what type of concrete I'm

(01:02:35):
going to put in there, what type of finishes required,
allow time to strip the boxing. At the end of
the job, get a concrete cutter in to do the
expansion joints. All of that, right, all of the work
involved in that. I'm going to price all of that up,
and I'm going to give you a fixed price for
that work. Now, if I'm doing a fixed price because
it's a quote, then I'm also going to allow a

(01:02:57):
reasonable margin to allow for things that I might not
have accepted or expected, or I'm going to tag those out.
So if for example, the ground conditions are poor, I
might say in my quote, I have allowed this to
do this work, but if it's soft, or if there's
a requirement, then you're going to pay for that. You

(01:03:17):
can add all of that into the quote, but generally
the quote is a fixed price. An estimate is not
an estimate. Is I think it will take this much
and take that amount of time, et cetera, et cetera.
But I'm not absolutely sure, and so the estimate is
a reasonable based on a series of reasonable assumptions, and
this is what I think it's going to cost. The
problem with estimates is that often they are underestimated, and

(01:03:40):
then the client goes, well, hang on, you said five grand.
Now you're charging me ten. But there is also now
requirements and has been for a long time that estimates
need to be within a reasonable amount of the finished work.
You can't estimate a job and then it doubles that
you shouldn't get paid for that basically, so hopefully that's
the difference between estimates and quotes. But quotes can go

(01:04:02):
over as long as you've tagged it. Oh, eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty is number to call. We'll take
short break the back with Jeff in just a moment,
very quick text. Hey Pete, I'm thinking about getting some
renovations completed. A friend has said that I need a
drafts person draftsman if I want to put in a
second toilet and shower. Is that correct? Thanks from Kristen. Yes,
your friend is well advised. You will need to You'll

(01:04:25):
need to submit plans. Plans can only be drawn by
someone who has an LBP license. Now that might be
a drafts person, might be an architect. And the reason
that it's going to require a building consent you said
you need plans to get a building consent is the
key phrase in your text is second toilet and shower.
So you're adding the number of sanitary fittings to the house.

(01:04:46):
That triggers requirement for a building consent. So yes, you
will need to submit plans to counsel in order to
get a building consent for that work. Jeff, A very
good morning, not bad, thank you yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:04:58):
I've got a question about concrete. I've got a large
square area of co founder level right and in the
six seasm must have been laid and when they did,
it was some boxes, you know, box section okay, yeah,
so and over time that the weeds are growing up

(01:05:20):
in between them. Now, yes, So what I've done is
that I've dug it out and I'm quite happy. I've
put the quick set concrete rabbit set concrete in there
and fill that up, and I'm quite happy with that.
What I worry about, Peter, is thinking about Peter is
that after a period of time, you know, after water
blasting and has taken the cement off the top yep.

(01:05:41):
So I'm just wondering, can I tidy it up by
sayce hose it all down and sprinkles ordinary cement on
it and rubbing and bum would that help?

Speaker 14 (01:05:55):
When you then not?

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Not really? I think I mean you remember that the
cement so concrete is basically aggregate, sand and cement, right,
and those when they activate, becomes concrete. So there is
cement all the way through your concrete. And all you're
doing is exposing the surface. And if you want to
make that a little bit smoother, let's say, no, just

(01:06:20):
applying cement, it'll it'll look really patchy, it probably won't stick.
And I can't think of any any time where I've
actually done something like that. Just a quick question. When
you say it's in boxes, is it like was it
Poorter's pads? And then a gap like one hundred more
gap in between them.

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
When they when they obviously it in sections like box sections,
Like maybe there's some just because when they take the
timber out, they're actually they squares and they've done and squares.

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
Yeah, okay, and then right and then you fill those in.

Speaker 4 (01:06:55):
Yeah yeah. I just thought, well, is there a way
that I could tie it up?

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Look, if you did want to tidy it up, you know,
and you really wanted to be considerably more attractive than
it is, I'd actually look at getting someone into do
like a surface coating on it so you can actually
get stains that that will give it a much more
uniform finish, possibly even doing a light grind over it.
It's a bit unusual, but it's one way of dealing

(01:07:21):
with it as well. But no, I wouldn't just go
around scattering cement on top. I don't. I think it'll
get a really patchy finish and it probably won't adhere
particularly well. Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't he.

Speaker 4 (01:07:36):
Someone in there.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
Yeah, if you have a look online that you'll find
some contractors who do concrete resurfacing and ceiling and if
you wanted a more attractive finish, that's often a good
way of doing it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:49):
Yeah, okay, concrete will finish something.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
And someone has text and I agree with them. Water
blasting concretors and no, no, it destroys the hardest lat Yeah,
I see. I love water blasting, I really do so.
I think what it is is going too hard and
too close. But also, you know, with this sort of thing,
you're trying to kill an organic material, so why not
use a treatment and that'll mean that you have to

(01:08:15):
do a lot less water blasting. So I'm a big
fan of various treatments that you can apply that will
activate and then you're rinsing that off with a water
blaster and not trying to blast the surface layer off.
Oh eight, one hundred and eighty ten eighty quick call
from Mary, and then we're going to talk to Nick
Cardy Jones about glazing an H one compliance in just
a moment. Hello, they're Mary.

Speaker 15 (01:08:35):
Oh yes, good morning, Peter Ash. I've been managering you
for weeks. Plucked up the carriage this morning about building consents.
First off, I'm not whining. I believe in rules and
building rules. You know, they're there for a purpose. In
my case, I had my husband built a house for

(01:08:56):
us twelve years ago and we extended the gabled end
out just over three and a half meters. It was
meant to be a nice place to sit in this
that we got these to them. We stily wins through
there and I decided that we're going to fill the
put three walls in there, so no plumbing, no electricity.

(01:09:18):
The roof was already there. I ran the council. I
had an architect droughout the plans so I was getting
a registered builder to build it for me, so they
knew exactly what I wanted to do. We swung the
area was three point six by six meters across and

(01:09:42):
it was the cost of the building consense and the
inspections that I needed. The first quote was for eight
hundred and twelve dollars, so it's quite a specific case.
My husband since passed away. But I thought, well, i'd
you know, I thought on a pension that was quite
a bit of money. I said, was it going to

(01:10:03):
be much much more? And they said, maybe we bit more.
I got a bill for another two thousand dollars. I
had seven inspections on three walls. Basically we swung the
old wall around to you know, to face the west.
I had two six windows, a four about a three

(01:10:27):
meter wall put up to give me a way bit
of privacy from the road, and just another single door.
The thing with the cost of building I had seven
inspections on that. I couldn't believe it. I did complain
to them why it took so many, because it wasn't
you know, there wasn't a lot of work that I
could see. Still took over a month to get the

(01:10:51):
consents reviewed. The thing is that the cost of building
consents very right across New Zealand. That was almost you know,
it was almost half the cost of building a whole
house with plumbing, electricity and all the rest. I bent
back to the council after work was done. We had

(01:11:13):
one inspector here that didn't even wait for the border.
One hundred and sixty nine dollars was for each inspection.
They've now gone up to over two hundred dollars and
he was telling me what I had to tell the border.
So I was absolutely I think it was the unfairness
of it. They did ask me what I wanted, and

(01:11:36):
I thought, well, I can't get my money back, but
that's actually what I'm wanting. I'm wanting fear costings all
over New Zealand. Different trades people have spoken since then,
they said it's a nightmare. I went back. I had
a meeting with council. They said, the reason they're so
pidentic is they're concerned about being taken to court. They

(01:11:59):
if they don't do it. But surely if you've got
registered builders, if they have enough insurance company fun to
insure the most they've got enough complaints against them, so
that would almost be self regulating. If you haven't got
a you know, if you haven't got the.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
And I think Mary, you've summarized it perfectly there and
you've identified exactly you know where some of those challenges are.
And you know, I'm not pretending that there's simple solutions
to this, but what you've said there is perfectly succinct
in the sense that work like that done by a
license building practitioner with the appropriate insurance sort of removes

(01:12:38):
counsel from the liability side of it or all of
the liability and allows things to be to have controls,
to have a system in place that will look after
any faults later on via insurance and could speed the
process up. And I think that's what we should be

(01:12:58):
looking at. I thank you very much for your comments,
very wise, all the very best. It is seven forty
six here at used Talk Set B. We've got Nick
Hardy Jones coming up in just a moment, and it's
my pleasure to welcome back to the show now a
regular contributor to Cardi Jones from Metro Performance Glass A
very good.

Speaker 10 (01:13:15):
Morning, Good morning, Peter.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
Three things now, lots I've never think I don't think
I can remember a time where building has been as
political as it is. Lots of discussion at the moment
around things like you know, changes to H one, which
I think is a sector. Everybody you know, knew that
it was happening, reworked everything, got ourselves ready and now
suddenly there's possibility it's going to be rolled back. But

(01:13:40):
in terms of New Zealand houses, we often love the
view and so to get the maximum of the view,
we end up with a lot of glass in our houses.
So in terms of H one in compliance, how important
is the glazing selection?

Speaker 8 (01:13:54):
Now, yeah, it really is important. As you're right, the
windows are often considered the weakest part of the firmal
performance of a home, right and so look there the
whole idea and that H one change was to increase
the insulation of value and homes to act them more efficient.
The glass is critically important to that because it makes
up such a big surface area and so you know,

(01:14:15):
using the benefits of technology and low e coating, you
can really list that several forms of a home and
retain the light coming into your building.

Speaker 3 (01:14:23):
So that's a focus where we're looking at our glazing.
We're looking at heat loss through heat transfer through glazing,
and so we're saying we want to trap that on
the inside. And then of course as soon as we
start focusing on that, then we get stories like the
one and stuff. A couple of months ago, people moved
into new townhouses, you know, fully compliant et cetera. Going

(01:14:45):
they are overheating. So can we have both? Can we
what is solar or solar control?

Speaker 8 (01:14:54):
Yeah, that's a really good point. So the key point
there is that the insulation doesn't increase the temperature of
the home. Yes, it essentially insulates the home from the
temperature from the outside. So the design of it is
keep keep a moderately temperate condition inside the home. So
if you don't have high performing double glazing and you

(01:15:14):
highly insulate a home, then the solar heat control a
sole heat coming into the home can cause homes to
become uncomfortable. But there are simple ways you can achieve
ways to reduce that. So you can have solar heat
control in your double glazing, and that will mean that
in the winter you get the benefits of the low
e keeping the heating, and then in the summer it

(01:15:35):
gives you some control, so you reduce the amount of
solar heat coming into the home and prevent that overheating effect.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
And if you opt for that, if you add solar
control to the double glazing, what you in a sense
for go is passive solar gain in winter, but you
then don't get it when you don't want it, which
is in summer time.

Speaker 8 (01:15:56):
That's okay, Yeah, that's exactly right, and that's what we
talk about. You know, is there a one piece that
fits all? I think really when you're thinking that glazing,
it's really about understanding, you know, whilst the orientation of
the home, what's the amount of blazing in the home,
and you know, for example, east and west facing areas
often actually attract a huge amount of solar heat game

(01:16:16):
through a home. So if you've got lots of glazing
on the northeast and west, and you've got really really
big windows and maybe some quite raltively small leaves, then
thinking about solar heat control into your glazing is a
really really good thing to do.

Speaker 5 (01:16:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
Absolutely, In terms of you know, what you can do
around solar control, is there a variety of options?

Speaker 8 (01:16:40):
Yeah, there really is. So. Traditionally solar control had been
achieved by using tinted or reflective glass. Now you can
still do that, but they do also reduce a lot
of the light coming into the home. So again with
modern technology and modern lowise, you can now have a
huge amount of solar controls. We're talking that you can
achieve thirty to sixty percent more solar control than a

(01:17:04):
standard double glazed unit and still achieve light transmission of
eighty percent. To put that in some context, a tinted
glass might reduce your light transmission down to about half
about fifty percent. So with modern high end double glazing,
you can achieve the solar control, knock out about thirty

(01:17:26):
to sixty percent of that solar heat game, and still
have a lot of light coming into the home.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
And so I suppose it's that horses for courses, isn't
it that? You You know, when we're talking about glazing,
we need to very much focus on what do I
want it to do here and what you might want
it to do on thel The south side of a
house is quite different to the northern side of a house,
and so there's no reason when we're thinking about, you know,
exterior glazing, that we change what we've got depending on

(01:17:54):
where it is.

Speaker 14 (01:17:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:17:56):
Absolutely, and I think that, you know, when we're talking
about retrofitting older homes, taking out single glazing and going
to double glazing, we often had that conversation you put
the right glass into the building for acoustics around road
noise YEP, or managing solar heat control. And I think
we now need to be having that conversation more with
new homes, really modeling them to have the right outcomes

(01:18:17):
for the occupants.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
Yeah, and let's put to rest this notion that somehow
insulation in all of its forms, whether it's in wall,
ceilings or in glazing, does not contribute completely to overheating.

Speaker 10 (01:18:29):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:18:30):
I think it's it's a simplistic sort of view that's
started to emerge. Oh, we're putting too much insulation into
our houses. That's why they're overheating. That's not why they're overheating.
They're overheating because it's poor design or lack of ventilation,
not good quality insulation.

Speaker 8 (01:18:45):
It's absolutely career, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:18:48):
Lots of information, and I think it's I think it's
really important that people start to think about I suppose
some of the complexity, and often we're scared of complexity
and it can seem really daunting, but this notion that
there's not a one size fits all, especially when it
comes to glazing, that you can and get it to
do what you need it to do on very very

(01:19:09):
specific locations, for specific needs.

Speaker 8 (01:19:15):
Right, then you don't have to have that compromise.

Speaker 7 (01:19:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:17):
Absolutely. If people want to find out more, what's the
best way of getting in touch.

Speaker 8 (01:19:22):
It is, want to get in contact with your local
Metro direut contact Metro Performance Class through the website or
on the phone.

Speaker 3 (01:19:28):
Perfect Nick. Always a pleasure talking with you. Thanks for
the advice, Thanks so much, all best you take care, Bob.
I think after the break we'll continue with more of
your calls if you've got a question. Eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty is the number to call. Lots and
lots of texts around the building consents and so on,
and I like, I'm really really reluctant to put the

(01:19:50):
boot into council. And I think counsel are in an
enviewable position where they've been left as being the person responsible,
the entity responsible for buildings after the contractors have gone
et cetera, et cetera, And so it's not surprising that
they've taken a low risk approach. So is there a
way of not de risking it but sharing liability when

(01:20:12):
things go wrong? And is insurance the best way to
do that? Lots and lots of texts on that as well.
So if you'd like to talk about that, we can
talk all things building and construction after the break. Remember
at eight thirty we've also got a decline pass joining
us and we're jumping into the garden with Rid from
eight thirty.

Speaker 5 (01:20:30):
Ay you traction care shoe.

Speaker 3 (01:20:37):
Your news talks they'd be And just going back a
little bit the just before the news, we had Nick
Cardi Jones from Metro Performance class. I mean, it's funny
how the sort of public discussion. I'm genuinely I'm quite
intrigued and quite excited about the amount of discourse, let's say,
discussion in public circles around buildings and building legislation, building performance,

(01:21:02):
you know, government regulation, et cetera, et cetera, whether it's
around the current discussion about sixty square meter buildings potentially
being able to be built without necessarily requiring a building consent,
whether it's proposed changes to H one standards, so they
increased as of November of last year, and then suddenly

(01:21:22):
people are saying, oh, it's added too much cost, it's unaffordable,
we need to roll back H one and so on.
And then a lot of discussion and comment online and
in the media around our houses now because we've started
to insulate them really warmly, really well, they're too hot,
they're overheating, as if the insulation is to blame for that,

(01:21:42):
which is nonsense, and even I think I read it
out a little while ago a brand's response. So this
is the Building Research Authority of New Zealand, whose whole
job it is is to research these things, and they've
made a very clear statement around saying no, added insulation
is not the cause of overheating to buildings. So this
was a story in the paper probably a month or

(01:22:05):
two ago, when it will sort of the end of summer,
people going well, hang on, I've just moved into a
brand new townhouse and I'm finding that I'm spending an
enormous amount on energy to run the heat pump to
cool the house down. The house is too hot. The
house is too hot because it's probably to be blunt,
poorly designed, rather than it's got good insulation in it.

(01:22:26):
So interesting to discuss that with Nick, but also around
that complexity about different glazing styles and I think getting
away from this notion that we've always typically had that
I mean, back in the day when you had very
little choice, there was glass right there, was there was
a single piece of glass and you put it in.
You might need to put some safety glass in. If
it was a big window, you might need to do

(01:22:47):
a laminate, if it was in a bathroom, et cetera,
et cetera. But now suddenly there's options for solar control
around more insulation to keep heat transferred to a minimum,
keep it inside the house, to prevent it from overheating.
These ways of doing solar gain. And you might want
acoustic performance and you can do that in different windows

(01:23:07):
all way around the house. So I think we need
to embrace complexity. We'd like things to be simple, but
sometimes they're just not. In buildings. This is the dichotomy
I guess of buildings that I really enjoy as well,
particularly the discussion about them, is that in a basic sense,

(01:23:28):
our buildings are shelter, right, That's what they're there for.
They're the cave that we had when we were cave people,
cave men, you know. They're the hut that we might
have had in the Middle Ages, those sorts of things,
and so they're still shelter today, but they've become far
more complex than that as we demand more of them.

(01:23:50):
We don't want to spend an enormous amount of energy
either heating our houses in winter because they're poorly built,
and all of that heat simply leaks out through the cladding,
through the walls, through the ceilings, through the floor. So
as a means of getting energy efficiency, we want to
make the houses perform better. We want their thermal performance

(01:24:11):
to increase, and that's a complicated thing to do. I
saw a set of building, of set of plans about
to be submitted for building consent soon, and someone asked
me just to sort of cast my eye over it,
and the thing that jumped out at me was that
the way in which they had put the they'd gone
for good quality glazing, good chlority joinery, but they hung

(01:24:35):
it outboard of the insulation line, so, you know, reducing
the performance of that simply by a lack of awareness
around what is best practice today. So that's where what
looks simple can be complex. And it's complex because they
are a dynamic situation. Our buildings are dynamic and we

(01:24:56):
need to understand how they perform in order to get
the best out of them. So it's that great dichotomy.
They're simple at shelter, but they're not because they're comple
structures and complex environments with any number of competing forces
that we need to be able to manage and control
to get the best out of the buildings that we
live in. I eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the

(01:25:17):
number to call if you've got a comment that you'd
like to make on anything building. I eight hundred eighty
ten eighty is the number to call. Actually, someone's oh,
I'm just going to grab this text before we earlier.
Calling wanting to upgrade their bathroom and place the bath
with a shower cup. Won't necessarily have to install ventilation
if they cover the top of the cube. Call with

(01:25:39):
a dome, install ventilation. Just put decent ventilation in our
My new ventilation expert Storm is going to join us.
I've got to set that up sometime the next couple
of weeks, so we'll talk all things ventilation. A deep
dive into ventilation coming up on the show in the
couple of weeks. I eight hundred eighty ten eighty the
number to call. Aaron, Good morning to you. Sure see

(01:26:03):
how we gotta I'm well, thank you and yourself.

Speaker 10 (01:26:06):
I'm not not too bad on this wet, rainy day.

Speaker 3 (01:26:08):
For it's pretty miserable.

Speaker 10 (01:26:13):
But you know, we just we just get on and
do stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:26:16):
Yeah, I think I'd sucked myself into this notion that somehow,
you know, winter had passed us by, and that I
could see fresh shoots on the plum tree and all
the rest of it, Oh goodie, summers on the way.
And then I was in the shed yesterday. I think
this is miserable. Yeah, that's not what we're talking about.
What's up?

Speaker 10 (01:26:34):
No, listen, I've yeah, we've got a family beach house
over and Caramelo cook speech and being a sleep out
at the back like an apartment right now. Got pretty
month in the in the in the storms talking about
storms and slattered and things like that, and basically everything
got paid out and all good. So bringing a builder me.
I got four brothers. We're all going to go and

(01:26:55):
get my hand. Get a little dunker's dad sort of
early eighties. He's determined to do it, but he's too
old to do it anyway. I got a younger brother
who's embarrassed and he always likes an argument and an easygoing.
All fellas I think need some content to this and
that and blah blah blah. Basically we're just replacing like
to like you know, just pulling the jib off, replacing
that plastom, painting, piling, new shower and new vanity. Nothing

(01:27:17):
more than that. And is there anything that I need
to get a PCBC, a goo? Can we do we
need to do anything?

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
I think your your barrister mate is wise, I brother,
even wiser than.

Speaker 14 (01:27:34):
Is that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:34):
You're probably on a really fine line. Right. So, for example,
if you were to remove that wall lining on an
exterior wall and then you go, hey, this is a
perfect opportunity to add some insulation that triggers requirement for
building consent. If you were just to take the wall
lining off and replace it and not add insulation, which
would be foolish because it's perfect opportunity, then you could

(01:27:56):
say I don't need I can do that under schedule
one of the acts. So yes, there.

Speaker 10 (01:27:59):
Are things that apartment at the back's only about five
years old anyway, as well boathouse that go turn it's sintilated.
So it's all like to like really yep.

Speaker 3 (01:28:11):
And I think where people sort of stretch the it's
maintenance thing too. It's actually a whole new build. So
for example, if you were to remove a section of cladding,
you can quantify that as maintenance. If you were to
replace all of the exterior cladding, then that would trigger
a requirement for a building consent. So I think if
if what you're doing is literally like for like, then

(01:28:34):
I think you're probably on reasonably safe grounds. The other
thing that's really really important, and I kind of realize
that I'm repeating myself. Often even work that is done
that doesn't necessarily require a building consent must be done
to the building code. So for example, if you were
swapping out a window, then the way that it's installed,
the way the performance expectations have to be up to

(01:28:56):
building code.

Speaker 10 (01:28:59):
If you just keep that safe and sanitaries.

Speaker 3 (01:29:03):
Or no safe and stantaries. No, but they do. There
is a certificate of acceptance, so a CoA, But the
burden of proof to obtain that is almost as high
as a building consent now. So and the reason for
that is counsels. Basically, you've got sick of people doing
work knowing that they should have got a building consent

(01:29:24):
then kind of going oop, sorry, sorry, silly me, Can
I have one of those coas please? And they go, oh, actually,
you've got to prove that it's compliant and that's that's
quite a process.

Speaker 10 (01:29:35):
Well, I look forward to going back to my young
embarraster brother and telling him he's wrong because people.

Speaker 3 (01:29:39):
Well, yes, steady on be sued, but I suspect he
is wise but maybe overly cautious. Good luck all this,
take care. Well, then your news talks se'd be if
I'm not here next week because I've been sued by
embarrass you'll understand why. Oh eight one hundred and eighty

(01:30:02):
ten eighty is that number to call? Lots of questions
about conced It's lots of text about it. New shower
with waterproofing? Does this need building consent? Yes? I believe
it does. So if you're doing a tile shower with
a waterproof lining underneath it, like a whether it's a
peel and stick or a brush on application, if it's
a waterproof system that you're installing, yes, that triggers a

(01:30:24):
requirement for a building consent, even if it's not necessarily
level entry. So even if you've got if you're not
changing the floor, you're building it up and you're putting
a hob or a plinth around the edge, that still
triggers the requirement for a building consent. As I understand it. Oh,
eight hundred and eighty ten eighty, we need to take
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all one day. I use the song as a way

(01:31:51):
of introducing people that I might have worked with or
encountered during the week that have been outstanding. And I
use it today really to mark the passing of a
guy that I've had the pleasure in the honor of
working with for the last gosh since about two thousand twelve.
I first met Clinton Jones, who worked as at Green Gorilla,

(01:32:12):
and when you if you ran Clint and you didn't
get him, and you got his answer phone message, it
was warm and welcoming and he said, look, I'm probably
busy out saving the planet, and that was exactly what
he did, and he bought a tremendous passion to his work.
He was just a fantastic guy and I'm deeply saddened
by his passing. So my condolences to his family and

(01:32:36):
to his kids, and to those people that he worked
with and whose lives he touched. He was a remarkable,
remarkable man, gone too soon. So Clinton Jones, thanks for
the company and your friendship. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Your news talks there be and we are talking all
things building and construction as well. Ross Greetings, Yeah, good morning.

Speaker 14 (01:32:56):
This is just a comment that it's not a criticism,
but it is it's a puzzle down there open us
in our street, there's the house that's being built, and
I'm just blown away is the amount of timber and
overkill that has had to go into the construction of
that house. And it's no wonder that the cost of
construction at the homes in New Zealand is so staggeringly expensive.

(01:33:22):
I was in Canada in another life, and their cost,
their construction method. And we're not talking about leaky holmes here.
These were fully houses that had bullys and everything else
and properly done. There was no These were not plaster homes.
But what they did there. All the timber was kiln dried.

(01:33:43):
The studs came in a packet. I think they were
ninety four and a half inches and the stud placement
were about fifteen inches and you'll have to forgive me
for inches sixt inches.

Speaker 3 (01:33:56):
I know exactly what you mean.

Speaker 14 (01:33:58):
Yep. And on top of that there went a sheet
of ply and on the top of it and they
were framed up that the trusses came on the back
of the truck with a high ad and they were
put on. And it used to take us about three
weeks or a month to frame up a three bedroom
house from the from the pouring the form foundation, and

(01:34:21):
on the outside of the house, on top of the
plywood would then go the shrink wrap or the wrap,
and on top of that would go the weather boards
sid siding where we were siding, and then the house
was shut up the inside. The heating was installed and
they had to get the moisture content down to something

(01:34:43):
like seven percent and that would take possibly two or
three weeks. And after that on the inside would then
go the jib board and the class or the wiring
for that, and the jib board and so forth. And
they didn't have nogs.

Speaker 10 (01:34:57):
They did.

Speaker 14 (01:34:58):
This house down the road here has got strapping on
every stud all the way down to the joists. The
amount of nogging and the amount of extra timber and
the metal strappings that's inside this house is just absolutely staggering.

Speaker 3 (01:35:14):
I'm guessing that it's probably three stories.

Speaker 14 (01:35:17):
No, it's a full basement, a flat roof and a
single story. And they've had this has been this house
has taken about four or five months so far, and
they're not even to the stage where they've got the
siding of the weather boards or anything on the outside.

(01:35:38):
And no wonder the cost of house construction is and
they've had five guys on there just blows me away.

Speaker 3 (01:35:47):
I'm beginning to get the impression that you know, it's
it's I think what we're starting to see in the
housing sector is a real split between I guess what
i'd call bespoke builds. Right, So a client goes to
an architect, gets a one off design done with all
specific engineering, and then finds a contractor to build that.

(01:36:08):
And that sounds like the sort of house that you're built,
that you're seeing being built. And then the other end
of the spectrum, let's say, and this isn't a value judgment,
is houses that are you know, less complex, are designed
to be built in a more affordable manner. You know,
I mean you I've done them where we'll get you know,

(01:36:28):
from slab, we'll get trusses, we'll get frames up, trustes
on and be ready for roofing six seven days later. Right,
So you know, we shouldn't confuse the typer house and
assume that not all houses are the same. Right to
be to be blunt. So I think you're right. I
think we're seeing I think what we're going to see

(01:36:50):
is a lot less of that highly complex bespoke building,
and it's only going to be a small part of
the construction sector and we will see much more around ideally,
you know, well developed building methodology that allow full speed
and efficiency.

Speaker 14 (01:37:09):
Yeah. Well, these homes in Canada, we're middle of the road.
They were not home, they were not high in there,
and there was explained to me that you only need
you don't need nogs in the house when you applywood
because it holds it all.

Speaker 3 (01:37:24):
To be fair, I was looking at a system the
other day where they're building not using nogs because they're
using LVL. They're using jframe, right, which is the J
and L product, So it's an LVL. It's dimensionally stable,
it's really stiff, and you can leave out the nogs
if you don't need them. And in some cases we
need them for exterior lining or whatever, but in many

(01:37:46):
cases you can do without them. It means you can
get more insulation. And you know, so we are starting
to see that those ideas coming in, maybe just not
quite as quick as we were hoping.

Speaker 14 (01:37:58):
Yeah, because there's no way that you under the present system,
there's no way did you ever again to take the
cost of construct cost of the cost of materials, or
the cost of a house out of with the present system,
it just doesn't look because you've got the labor at
fifty sixty seventy pucks an hour, so the cost of
putting those nogs in it's colossal and necessary. I have

(01:38:20):
to say no.

Speaker 3 (01:38:21):
But you know, again, I think what you're describing is,
you know, one of those sort of I say architecturally
designed asn't that's not a derogative term, and it can
seem like it is, you know, a bespoke house designed
and built specifically for that client wanting to achieve a
certain look or a certain performance or whatever, and that's
how they're doing it. It's not. It's no longer representative

(01:38:44):
of how we build most houses in New Zealand. Saying that,
you know, one of the challenges we've got around insulation
is that we're finding through surveys that as much as
forty five percent up to forty five percent of our
exterior walls is timber framing now, which doesn't leave a
lot of space for insulation. So now we've got to
think about better solutions for insulation. Yeah, are we excessively

(01:39:08):
braced and all the rest of it, I'm not sure
what the answer is there, and I think what you
bring to the table, Ross is that you know, we're
not the only people in the world building ours is right,
and so we tend to get this thing that somehow
what we do here is completely unique to us, and
it's just not right. There are lots of things that
we can learn from overseas. Hopefully we just bring back

(01:39:30):
the good ideas and leave the daft ones behind. But
you know, we need to look overseas. We need to
look at what they're doing to create efficiencies while not
giving up on quality and performance. We're going to jump
into the garden with Red Klein passed in just a moment.
I just want to read this text from Paul morning.
Pete couldn't agree more. Clint was a brilliant team guy

(01:39:51):
who was years ahead and is thinking of how to
deal with construction waste and improve the environment. We'll remember
him from Paul. You're absolutely right, Paul, thanks for texting that.
Clint Jones rest in peace. We are back after the
break and we will talking to root climb.

Speaker 1 (01:40:07):
Past For more from the Resident Builder with Peter Wolfcamp.
Listen live to News Talk z' B on Sunday mornings
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