Trump Can’t Outspin A Bad Economy + Why Michigan Is The MOST IMPORTANT State In American Politics

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Happy Monday. I am here. As I said to you
on the last broadcast, if Mackenzie Gore got traded, you
might have to I might be hibernating somewhere or worse.
But Mackenzie Gore did not get traded. The Nationals, in theory,
have a future. Although what that future is I guess

(00:24):
the theory we all have a future. The question is
is it a good future or is it a bleak future.
I have a lot more to say about the NATS.
I'm actually going to hold off and do it towards
the end of the podcast. I want to be respectful
for why you subscribe. I know some of you subscribe
because you are curious what I have to say about
the Nats, and I have a lot to say, but

(00:46):
I'm going to assume that it is not the majority
of you on that front. My guest today is an
old friend of mine, longtime journalism pal Ron Fournier. He
spent a lot and share of his professional career at
the Associated Press, covering the Clinton White House and Bush
White House very thoroughly back in the day. Has been

(01:09):
in and out of journalism since then. He's an editor
in chief of National Journal at one point Crane Detroit.
He's a Michigan native. He lives in Michigan. He does
communications consulting now has a terrific sub stack that I've
been enjoying. His daughter babysited, babysat for now my senior

(01:32):
in college. It'll make us both feel old on that one, sorry, Ron.
And so the point is, I've known him a long time.
He is one of the smartest, makes me think, and
he's a no bullshit guy, right, And that's the whole
point of independent media these days is I think we're
all tired of the rounding of the edges, the bullshit,

(01:55):
all of that stuff. I get it. That's why you're here.
You'll enjoy the conversation. We've been a line share Michigan,
I think Michigan. And before I get to my opener
here on President Trump and UH and the economy, but Michigan.
I believe if I, if I, if I were running
a massive newsroom these days, political newsroom, I would have

(02:16):
somebody already embedded in the state of Michigan. If I
were a national news outlet. Now, of course, at these days,
everybody's shrinking, so they're not doing these things. So you know,
I will tell you this, Go follow. According to Ron's
advice is go follow Chad Living good political reporter out there.
He's uh, he's somebody I do follow on on Twitter

(02:37):
and uh, he's uh, he's really good. He's a political
edit at the Detroit News and it is great stuff
and you will learn a lot there from him. But
the point of this is, I think Michigan is ground
zero for trying to figure out where's the country headed
politically in the short term. Where's the Democratic Party headed?
Where's the Republican Party headed? You got that three way

(02:58):
governor's race. I mean that's why I'm you know, is there.
This is one of those things I think that there
is a real hunger out there for something other than
these two major parties. Right, they have both lost I think,
you know, the Republicans are losing credibility by the day
with what they're done with the economy. The Democrats already
lost their credibility with the voters in this ping ponging.

(03:18):
You know, voters have been spending a decade basically voting
voting out what they don't want. They don't necessarily vote
what they want in because they don't have that option.
But they know what they don't want, so they keep
voting out people. But each time you vote out one
party or the other party, you realize poist doesn't get

(03:40):
that much, doesn't get any better. Maybe the rot is
in both parties to a degree. And Mike Duggan's candidacy
in Michigan, I think, is going to test whether the
appetite is Their polls always show that there's independent interest
in independent candidates, candidates, there's an interest in a third party,

(04:00):
not somebody that is an arm of Elon Musk. As
we're learning in the polls. Don't you attach Elon Musk's
name to third party? It goes down the tubes. Nobody
wants that you take. But the actual idea of a choice.
We always want choice. You ask, do you want choice?
Do you want one phone company? Now we want two
phone companies. You have two phone companies, now we want
three phone companies. Right, whatever choices we have, we always
want more, Right, That's that's sort of the human experience.

(04:24):
So we always think we want more choices, and I
think that's the that's why I always I think I
think in a weird way, free markets and capitalism is
like inane. It's human nature. Right, we don't. We we don't.
We always want more options, and I think in this case,
but we do so in theory. We always say yes.
But then by the time election season comes around, we figure, well,

(04:46):
I might like this third party, but they have no
chance of winning. I got to vote, you know, I
got to vote for the essentially the least bad option.
If Dougan wins that race, I think it opens the
mind and aperture to others. It's suddenly it's one of
those if you break that ceiling right, you're able to
actually win. And it's you know, we've Alaska's had an

(05:06):
independent governor off and on, but really it hasn't really
happened since Ventura in ninety eight, right where in that
sort of you know, even Angus King is kind of
a quasi Democrat, right, he cocks with the Democrats that
the SEC raises money for him, uses Zach Blue, you know,
he really kind of independent name only, right, Lisa Murkowski,
independent name only. You know, they've proven they don't need

(05:27):
their party labels to win, but they are who they are, right,
So this would be I think that monument. This is
an un presidential swings day. I think the Democratic primary
in that Senate race. Basically it's outside inside somebody somebody
with congressional experience who's seen as a really rising star,
Haley Stevens, somebody another rising star, Molly McMorrow said, the

(05:53):
third candid in there that has been endorsed by Bernie Sanders.
So you just I think the Democratic primary for the
US Senate and you'll hear Roun Fournier talk. So we
spent a lot of time in Michigan because I just
think as Michigan is the is the answer key this cycle. Okay, yes,
forty nine other states are going to have important elections.

(06:14):
Michigan's is the answer key to what does it all
mean nationally? For frankly, with both parties on that front,
open governor seat, open Senate seat, a couple of open
house races, because of all of those already, I mean,
it is it is where the action is going to be.
So this will be the first of many visits I

(06:35):
do a dive on Michigan. But let me go to
my topic of the morning, and that is this is
this say with President Trump, is this a summer swoon
or is this the beginning of the end? And I
know what you think in the beginning of the end,
right little eye roll there, because the economy has turned
against him and all of his theories are starting to

(06:59):
essentially blow up in his face. Yes it's early. Yes
they're not ready to admit this, but there's something happening here.
And and I know, I know what you may think, Eh,
you know, there's always this prediction, Oh, this is going
to end them, etcetera, etcetera. But let's sort of let
me set the stage here and then we'll talk and

(07:22):
then you can give me your feedback at the end
of my case here. So later this week he marks
day two hundred in office, and I've been had vacillating
about this. Is he in the middle of it? Just
a summer swoon, which we've seen plenty of presidents go through.
The summer is cruel in Washington, both in the humidity
and to presidents. It's very off in July and August

(07:43):
sucked politically for them. Part of it is you've got
cranky members of Congress and all of those things, and
just you know, it can be bad, and you have
people are sort of out to lunch. People aren't putting
their best foot forward even working in the PLA because
they're all thinking about their own vacations. You got kids
starting school and all this stuff. So there's just a
lot of distractions. So the opportunity to make mistakes happens

(08:05):
quite a bit in July and August with these politicians.
So there's a strong argument that we could quote unquote
be in a summer swimp. But it's also possible that
this is this is the beginning of the end of
his presidency. Doesn't mean he won't serve all four years,
but really, you know, humor me here a minute, and
I know some of you may roll your eyes up
that Trump arrangements in critics always want the fall to come,

(08:28):
you know, the TDS folks say, always looking for signs
of a collapse. You know, ever since he insulted John McCain,
that's the end of his political career, right, you know,
the critics been saying Donald Trump this, Donald Trump that.
But the fact is he has you know, political reality
has bitten him in the past COVID and political reality
may bite him in the moment with the economy, and

(08:52):
it happens to every president, particularly seven second term presidents.
But let me tell you a fascinating trajectory that I
think we're on here and why Trump and his political party,
his allies, and his own strategists need to have a
reality check here that this could this could end quickly.
Let me take you back to August twenty twenty one,

(09:12):
basically the exact moment we're in right now. Four years ago.
Joe Biden was riding high just before the withdrawal from
Afghanistan hit an approval rating over fifty percent, which in
these days that's like being that's like being in the
sixties back bick in the eighties and nineties, the stimulus
checks were out the door. People were happy about that.
Promises made, promises kept on that one. The vaccines got

(09:36):
finally got out the door in a fairly smooth process,
and then came Afghanistan. The decision to get out wasn't unpopular,
that was very popular. Public wanted out. But it was
the execution. It was chaotic, it was incompetent, and it
was the kind of failure that sort of punched Biden
in the gut because it hit him at a core
perceived strength, right which was foreign affairs. You know, it

(09:59):
was one thing about Joe Biden's resume. It screamed that
he had experience in foreign affairs. People may disagree with
his takes, but he you know, he was a skeptic
in Afghanistan early, so you know, he felt very in
a little ways, he felt a little cocky. I think
many of his foreign policy mistakes were due to his
own cockiness, because he because his take was, ended up
being right about Iraq, ended up being right about these things.

(10:22):
So I think there was a lot of confidence that
voters have that hey, it's not going to screw that up.
And then he screwed up. He screwed up his best subject, right,
this was the core. This was the one thing voters
didn't think they had to worry about with him was
foreign affairs, and he screwed it up. And what that
does when you know, this is why political you know,

(10:44):
those in the dark arts of politics like to go
after They always say, go after someone's perceived strength. You
get rid of their Perceif you hit them, you undermine
their perceived strength. And ever it's a house of cards
after that. Right, it's like pulling the right leg on
it in a right little wood blow. I got a Jenga.
All of a sudden, the whole thing comes crashing down

(11:06):
and he never recovered. He sat, he got under forty
five percent, and he never recovered. He had moments of
sort of dead what turned out to be essentially dead
cat bounces. You know, the midterms were not about him,
but he wanted to make it about him. He was
trying to use it as a way to jump start
his political problems. But he never recovered from that moment

(11:27):
he got his big bill passed, never recovered from that moment.
It just it was this weight on him, and to me,
it was proof that voters never bought Joe Biden. They
voted for him, they hadn't really bought into him. What
they did know is Donald Trump had to go because
his mismanagement of COVID was the firebule offense. And this

(11:48):
is why he's got to be careful here. He has
been able to bullshit his way out of all sorts
of problems over the years, but every once in a while,
when reality catches up to the Trump spind machine, it
implodes on itself. COVID was a was a perfect example.
He just couldn't talk the virus out of you know,

(12:09):
he couldn't spin away from the virus. The virus was
spreading the bodies were piling up. He couldn't do it,
you know, and you know he kind of knew it.
Every once in a while he was he hated, he
hated to do what he had to do and listen
to the health experts. And at the same time he
was quietly wanted credit for Operation Warp Speed. But you know,
he just he just botched it all and there was

(12:30):
an incompetency to him and so to me, you know,
I was understandable voters and this was always the big mistake, Right,
Democrats think voters throughout Trump for all of his other misdeeds, No,
they never have. They knew his misdeeds. And this is
something we all have to sort of come to grips
with which his voters knew exactly who they were electing
in twenty sixteen, okay, and they voted for him anyway.

(12:52):
So it was just like with Bill Clinton, while the Republicans,
you know it kept going after character. With Bill Clinton,
the voters knew who they were electing in nineteen So
those issues were baked in, right, he was going to
get where they were mad when he messed up on
the on the on the job itself, that's when they
would turn on Bill Clinton and and I think that's

(13:15):
what we're seeing here, Okay, in twenty twenty four. Why
did he win? You know, it's at the retribution campaign.
And you know, sometimes I think those those of us
that are that are in the world of political communications
right now, in the world of political reporting and analysis,
you know, you see the you know, the loudest voices
are the most anti Trump, right, and the loudest voices

(13:36):
are the most pro Trump. But what gets drowned out
is those that sort of decide everything, those in sort
of the uncomfortable middle. And it's a larger when I
when I refer to the middle, I refer between the
thirty yard lines. Right there are sort of pragmatic Democrats
and pragmatic Republicans who have uncomfortably stuck to their party
out of loyalty and out of out of a little

(13:58):
bit of of you know, they've not left the party
because they don't know where else to go, as I
discussed with the independent stuff, and they certainly don't trust
the other party. But for the most part, they don't
like this, right, and that you know, so that that
that discomfort, that that that sort of overall Paul, I

(14:21):
think sometimes blinds us from like what is what is
actually having an impact on what doesn't right? And I
think there's been way too much focus on Epstein. I
don't think. I think there's so much of his personal
character flaws that are baked in and people kind of
tune them out. They already know, Yeah he lies all
the time. Yeah he won't admit that he did this,
and won't admit yes all that, Yes he's paid for play. Yes,

(14:44):
it's a kleptocracy in a weird way. It's like all
that's kind of baked in because there was a transaction
that a slice of voters made in twenty twenty four
with him. They looked at Biden and Harrison thought, boy,
this economy sucks.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
I hate it.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yes I have a job, Yes I have money in
my pocket, but cost make too much money at the
grocery store. So they were pissed. They were pissed the
rising cost living and you know, as it turned out,
a large chunk of that was COVID driven, right, But
when you would compare the economic record, people didn't like
the Biden economy, and Harris was running on that versus Trump,

(15:18):
who successfully convinced the voters that the first three years
of his presidency should be what you focus on. Don't
focus on the COVID here. And for the most part,
voters never have punished Trump on the economy over the
COVID issues that you know, hey, that was COVID's fault,
but well we don't know, you know, So in a
weird way, they sort of gave him a pass on

(15:38):
that because anybody that was that was a literally once
in a century type of thing. But there was sort
of a mythology about his economy. And what I think
you have to remember here is is it most presidents
the economy that they get credit for in that first
term credit or blame is an inherited economy, right, you know,

(16:01):
George H. W. Bush inherited a stalling economy, and over
time he had to deal with the recession and it
was recovering by the time he was running for reelection,
but it didn't matter. And Bill Clinton inherited a recovering economy,
and then his theory of the case jump started the economy.
And arguably he presided over a moment in history, the
Internet boom that also sort of created a surge. But

(16:25):
he inherited, right, George W. Bush was inheriting a slowing
economy from Clinton. He had to deal with a bit
of a downturn nine to eleven, and it gave him
a pass with voters. Everybody understood nine eleven had an
extra different impact, you know. But then, of course it
was in the the economic crash happened on his watch.
He was president for the entire eight year period before then,

(16:48):
and so it really I think damaged the economic brand
of the Republicans, particularly that wing of the Republican Party,
which is why that wing of the Republican Party didn't
you know, is not in charge today. And Barack Obama
inherited a faltering economy and by the time he handed
it off to Trump, it was recovering. That was a
recovering economy in those last two years of Obama, and

(17:09):
he inherited that his tax cuts. We don't know to
this day whether those tax cuts were good for the
economy or not, because essentially COVID happened, right, So it's
one of those moments where everybody who believes everybody can
believe what they want to believe with what those tax
cuts did. Those tax cuts did nothing but hurt that,

(17:30):
you know, raise the deficit, or those tax cuts were
going to pay for themselves, but we'll never know. But
either way, he got those tax cuts. So there was
this perception by that economy it was humming along during Trump.
That's what people had a memory of. So that got
him this election. And so he got this and he

(17:52):
had inherited a pretty decent economy, and in some ways,
because it's healthy, because he inherited a healthy economy, could
withstand some of his experiments for a few months, his
teriff uncertainty, and the question was, well, how long can
it withstand it? How long can it withstand it? Well,

(18:15):
I think we're finding out. So here we are. It's
now Trump's economy start to finish. Right, He's got everything
he's wanted. He got his tax reform two point zero passed.
He has implemented a tariff heavy industrial policy that you know.
The problem he's got is that if he's right about

(18:36):
his theory of the case of reindustrializing America using this
tariff regiment, it's going to take years for us to
feel the positive effects of it. But he got what
he wanted there. He's got a compliant Republican Congress. It's
basically going to hand him I think even if the courts,
and they will. I think the courts are going to
take away his terff authority. I really do, and it's
going to be and that's going to be fascinating when

(18:57):
it happens. Okay, when the courts do you take away
his TERRFF authority. He's going to go back to Congress
and essentially asked for this Congress to give him authority
to do what he's doing, and we, the compliant Republican Congress,
for the most part, is likely to go along. But
how close to the midterms are we when that moment happens, right?

(19:20):
Or is it something that happens after the election? Right?
How long does it take to go through the process.
I think, if I'm if I care about this economy,
I want it to hurry up and find out what
the rules are. So hopefully this hits expedite. Hopefully we
find out before the end of this calendar year. But
I don't know, right. We know the courts can sometimes
go on its own schedule. So I have this thesis

(19:40):
that he's going to make Republicans walk the plank and
vote essentially for tax pikes for American consumers via terriffs.
Because he's going to want this authority back, and I
think those members of Congress don't want to vote for it.
So that's going to be a moment that could be
coming in the next three to six months. I really

(20:01):
believe the courts. Everything you see in this court, I mean,
it is just what he's using as as sort of
this thread of constitutional authority to set these tariffs is
an emergency Act that was passed in the seventies, So
it is it is unlikely the courts are going to
let this hold up, but our congressional Republicans really going

(20:23):
to not give Trump what he wants, so they But anyway,
that's I'm going to put that in put a pin
in that because we don't know yet, and that's over here.
What we do know is he has the authority to
set the tariffs in the moment. Right And here's what's happened.
The economy is getting worse, and everybody knows it, everybody
feels it. We've seen it in the polls. And now
for the first time, we have a jobs report that

(20:44):
reflects all of the predictions and dire warnings that mainstream
economists and the left and the right said, we're coming
and here we are hiring is slowing, business investment is
paralyzed thanks to the tariff uncertainty. We still have an
unaffordable housing situation, both due to an inventory is and
high interest rates. And now we've got this job's report
that shows the unmistakable signs of a potential contraction down

(21:07):
the road. Of course, Trump doesn't want to own any
of these results. He's doing what he does best. He's
blaming others, blaming the Fed, blaming the poor person that's
in charge of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, trying to
find a Biden holdover to blame because he can't accept that.
But the data doesn't lie, and we've been seeing it
in the polls. Right, His numbers have been getting worse

(21:28):
on the economy. People are upset about the cost of living.
So he can say what he wants all he wants.
People's lived experiences matter here more than whatever he's saying. Now,
there are some of his bases going to give him
a chance. Right, He's got farmers that are like, Okay,
we'll try the tariffs because we have trust in Donald Trump.

(21:49):
But for the most part, lived experience is the greatest
reality check. No matter what the spin machine in that
White House is thrown out there. And that's why I
go back to this moment mirroring August of twenty twenty one,
and it may mirror more than Trump realizes. Biden's presidency
never never recovers from the collapse in public confidence, and

(22:11):
this could be his Afghanistan moment. This is Donald Trump's
Afghanistan moment. On the one issue that voters thought was
our core competency managing the economy. They sort of accept
all the character flaws, but hey, the deal maker, and
you know what Trump one point, I was pretty good
for the economy. That was what people do? You know
because everybody's memory hold COVID, Right, that's pretty good. Well,
he's doing it, and it's turning into a disaster. It's

(22:35):
sort of slow motion disaster, right, because you know, the
stock market is sort of artificially being pumped up by
all this AI investment. He himself has thrown money at crypto,
throw money at a investment, and that has sort of
created these sort of artificial It's sort of like a
hot air balloon. Our economy is like a hot air
balloon with a whole bunch of holes in it, and

(22:56):
he's given it weird stimulus, right, you know, legalizing the
more he's made that of a legal market. That's kind
of you know, created the illusion of wealth in some
people's hands. Then you have all this AI investment in
speculation that's you know, but as we see, that doesn't
really help. Both crypto and AI do nothing to create

(23:19):
jobs zero right now. If anything, you know, the investment
in AI data centers is just maybe some construction jobs,
maybe some tech support, but not a lot. Right, This
is more computers. Essentially, it's the making of robots to
replace human beings. So it's not going to have a
positive impact on any sort of jobs report on that front.

(23:42):
So here we are, and here's by the way, Donald
Trump did believe the job support. How do you know
this well, as my friend Douglas Holtech and he's my
guest this week on Sunday Night with Chuck Todd on Newsphere,
take a look at it. He he himself was the
who used to get the jobs report first for anybody,

(24:02):
and then it was his job to brief the president.
He was George W. Bush's chief economic advisor, and he
it's a terrific walkthrough of how the process works anyway,
he noted, he goes, they knew he knows the timing right,
since he knew how it worked, that they get there. Basically,
they knew the results of this job's report on Thursday
at two o'clock, and he made some moves that you know,

(24:27):
they delay some tariff implementation, you know, some of it
they delayed a week, some of it they'd lay twenty
four hours. All of it, as he said, was a tell.
They knew it was a bad report and they wanted
to get out ahead of it. They basically didn't want
the markets to like double crash on them, right, having
a liberation day times a thousand happened to them. Markets
still didn't like what they heard, crappy jobs report, but
it would have been piled on right with all of

(24:48):
even more tariff problems on that stuff. So it is
it is so they believe their numbers. They just didn't
like that somebody admitted it publicly, which is of course.
You know, look, we're going to go down this road.
But I'm very you know, we if we start, we
already have. You can't believe anything that comes out of

(25:11):
HHS right now, Okay, I can't. I'm sorry. I have
to say it that way. There is nothing. The single
least credible person in the cabinet is Robert F. Kennedy Junior.
Everything they're doing right now in vaccines and on this
is absolutely should be a five alarm fire. I've said
this before. I have no idea why it isn't, but

(25:32):
this is so you have no scientific data whatsoever you
can trust out of HHS because of Kennedy. Okay, that's alarming.
And now we know already the next FED chair is
not going to be independent because Donald Trump is not
going to appoint somebody that pledges to be independent. He's
made that clear. And as Douglas Holte can note it,
the last time we had a FED chair that was

(25:53):
not independent, that was captured by a president, it was
Richard Nixon and Arthur Burns. And Richard Nixon and Arthur
Burns orchestrated the worst ten years arguably twenty years for
the American economy since the Great Depression in the seventies.
It was a disaster. Okay, I look at I'm sorry,

(26:14):
you know the most you know, the big traumatic thing
for many people in the settings. What's having a waiting line?
We are rationing gas we're waiting in line for gas.
We couldn't go buy gas on certain days in the
United States of America. That was the ridiculous economic policies
of Nixon and the and they basically stagflation the first

(26:36):
time we dealt with it. And now this is something
stagflation which is both inflation and high unemployment. That is
a disaster. It takes forever to get out of it.
We had to have twelve percent interest rates to get
out of it. So here we are. So make no mistake.
If they've already made data uncredible in the scientific, heal

(26:59):
and health community right now, AHAs, now they're going to
start messing with that. We have the census. I mean
this is look and you know, every country that has
politicized their central bank, their economy has gotten worse. Best
example of that is, according to my friend Douglas holteakn
is Turkey. Okay, so this is a recipe for economic disaster. Okay,

(27:24):
it's borderline kleptocracy for the government. It is a full
on kleptocracy right now with this Republican Party and how
Trump forces people, you either pay a tribute to him
or you get out right. You don't get to do
business with the president. You don't get to do anything
without giving him a tribute. And corporate Americas figured this
out right, That's that's that's what's been happening left and right.

(27:48):
Academia has decided that it's easier to just pay the
tribute than to fight for your First Amendment rights in
the in the in the courts. But that's where we are.
But here's the thing. Reality is caught up and it's
the lived experience. This is why. And I get it.
We've seen him with we've seen him get out of

(28:09):
all sorts of political problems, but they were they were
political problems that the public already baked in. Screwing up
the economy was the one core competency's supposed to have.
And if this, this is what makes this the most
lethal problem he's got politically, because if credibility and if

(28:30):
there is no credibility among voters on his ability to
manage the economy, that's the Jenga piece that collapses the presidency.
It's not Epstein, it's not you know some you know, uh,
bad intelligence reports or the Pentagon or anything like that.

(28:50):
It is pocketbook, right. It is how people feel about
the economy. Look, Richard Nixon only left office because the
economy was terrible. Republicans only end up walking away from
him finally in Washington because the economy is terrible. The
economy had been better. I don't think they walk away
from what he did. And that's the that's the lesson

(29:10):
that Donald Trump needs to have. You know, he's basically
he's basically the godson of the Nixon era in so
many ways, right, And two of the most important figures
of the Nixon era that made it through to the
Trump era, Rogerstone and Roger Ales. Ales isn't with us anymore,
but Roger Stone is. That's how he's learned politics, right,
That's how it that that that just so the DNA

(29:33):
of Nixon is all there, and he's making all the
same mistakes. He's making all those same mistakes. But the
core competency that he was hired for was the economy.
And this is why this becomes And I'll tell you
at some point, presidency's end. You still preside, but presidency's end, right,
George W. Bush, Katrina on top of Iraq and that

(29:57):
Terry Schivo business. Basically, by the start of six his
presidency was over. Didn't mean he still had to manage
the war. He got some foreign policy things done, but
his governing ability and his ability to persuade the public
done right. Joe Biden, just I just outlined it. His
presidency ended a lot sooner than we thought, but it
may have. Actually his ability to talk to the country

(30:18):
and persuade the country appeared to end after Afghanistan. For
Bill Clinton, even though he survived impeachment, he never got
to govern his second term. He never got his governing
second term. Trust me, you hear from old Clinton allies,
and they'll remind you of that over and over again.
Very similar. Doubt Trump complains that he lost his first
term to impeachment, and for Reagan it was we're on contract,

(30:40):
even though he personally stayed fairly popular or in contract
basically ended his ability to govern, you know, to advance
new initiatives on that front. So that's how and he's
in a second term. That's how powercrit and so the
real issue is going to The really interesting thing to
watch is as people experience a worsening economy, what do

(31:05):
the Republican elected Republicans do? How long do they stick
by him in what and many of them Remember, this
is a Republican Party divided in three. As I always say,
about a third of them are true believers in this
economic protectionism policies. A third of them don't believe in
it at all. They're the old free market libertarians and
they are fighting it right. That's Ran Paul is sort

(31:26):
of the voice of that, Chuck Grassley to a lesser extent.
And then there's this middle section who all know these
tariffs are terrible, but they just want to They're just
the survivors in the Republican Party. This is Lindsay Graham
and Marco Rubio who have found their way to the
protectionist wing of the You know, somehow are their isolationist,

(31:46):
protectionist mindset, whether they really believe it or not. How
long can they stick with this when they actually see
that their initial gut instinct was right, this was going
to be a calamity. That's and that's why I go
back to the only thing that could keep our economy
from just totally cratering into recession is the courts. And

(32:10):
if the courts successfully take the tariff authority away from
the White House, it could serve as a stimulus to
the economy. And the question is how unpopular or popular
is Trump in that moment, Because if he's more unpopular
than he is today, I don't know if he can
get that Republican party to walk the plank and give

(32:32):
him teriff authority just to keep doing what he's doing
with the economy. Is there a chance that his theory
the case is right, by the way, it's a question
I asked Douglas Holtek in a longtime economists, you know,
and even he said, he said, look, there's a ten
percent chance. You can't rule it out that his idea
of this sort of US against the world type of

(32:55):
trade policy can be successful, that somehow we can grow
while the rest the world on the backs of the
rest of the world and the rest of the world stagnates.
That was true in the nineteenth century. In the twentieth century,
I don't think in this globalized world, I don't think
the rest of the world is just going to let
us do this. We've had a few allies that have

(33:16):
let him let us bully our way into some uncomfortable
trade deals. But we'll say I'm skeptical there. That said,
one thing we do know about Trump is that you
know he does he does eventually jump ship from bad ideas.
The question is when does he do it and how

(33:37):
long will it take him to jump ship. He jumps
ship on Obama birtherism basically in the last week of
his presidential campaign, because Kelly and Conway convinced him if
he would finally admit that that was all bullshit, that
there'd be some voters that might come his way. Whether
that's true or not, I don't know, right, there's so
many things happened in those the last eleven days, you know,

(34:00):
the Komi business, all that stuff. We will never one
hundred percent know. But he jumped ship when he thought
it would mean he could win. He would COVID was
a great example of watching him constantly sort of vacillate
between listening to scientists and not and then listening to
his base and listening to a scientists. And he tried

(34:23):
it was time. He was trying to give everybody a
little bit of something for a while there. All right,
I'll green light operation warp speed, and yes, I hate
these lockdowns and that, you know, so at some point
reality he won't. He realizes people feel a crappy economy, right,
and we're all feeling We're all seeing prices continue to rise.

(34:44):
We all see that houses, our neighbors' houses are staying
on the market a lot longer than we thought it would.
You know, everybody's experiencing what is and we're now seeing
all these companies raise this up. So everything ends or
you know, every look, the Trump Bear is going to

(35:05):
end badly. I'm a believer in my line. I live
by the mantra everything ends badly or also with an end.
It's a line from the movie Cocktail. The Trump Bear
isn't going to end without pain, and it may be
it's economic pain that sobers up folks and realizes that

(35:27):
that could be what brings his because he's now he
is he is the dog that caught the car. He's
had this belief in tariffs that goes back forty years,
and he's now thrown him around. I think he only
loves it because it makes him kind of like a
mob boss. Right, everybody has to pay a tribute to him.
You want to get a tariff exemption, you got to

(35:47):
see the President. You want a lower teriff freight, you
got to see the president. That everything comes through him.
I think that's the other sort of reason he likes
it right. It consolidates power into him, so it's his
and the voters are going to know if the economy
is bad, there's only one person to blame, and it

(36:09):
ain't the chairman of the Federal Reserve. All right, I'm
a sneak in a break and when we come back,
the single most important state in twenty twenty six for
the midterm elections, a deep diving that what's going on
in Michigan with my friend Ron Fortier. So joining me

(36:38):
now is an old friend, a one time neighbor who's
actually daughter at one time babysat my kids. But we
sort of professionally have been working around each other, kind
of working together even though we never worked at the
same organization. At the same time. It's Ron Fourtyer, who
has done a lot of things in the world of

(36:58):
journalism and is is now his own entrepreneur. He's a
native of Michigan and comes these days, is based in
Michigan after a stint in Washington, d c. And before that,
what sort of got him into the world of political reporting,
arguably was being the bureau chief in Little Rock. When
a governor of Arkansas suddenly became a national figure Ron,

(37:20):
It's good to see you, my friend.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Good to see you, Bud here. You were here in
Detroit the other day.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
I was local news in crisis, and look, we've got
a lot of thoughts on media, but sort of the
primary conversation I want to have with you is all
things Michigan. I was just talking with Dave Weigel, as
listeners will know, and I said, you know, when you
look at all the storylines of where America is headed, right,

(37:45):
You've got whether it's is there room for an independent,
You've got the three way governor's race with what's going
on there, what's going on inside the Democratic Party outside
or insider. The Senate primary there between Stevens and Tomorrow
definitely has that insider outsider feel. Throw in the other
candidacy and it's the Progressives versus you know, it's both

(38:07):
in generation right, it's a.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Generational argument, it's an ideological argument.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
You know, whatever. Whatever. You could just plant yourself in
Michigan in twenty twenty six and start writing about what's
going to happen in twenty twenty eight all over the place, right,
appetite for independence, where is the direction of the of
the Democratic Party, and can the Republicans ever win without Trump, right,

(38:32):
the fact is we still the only Republican that can
win statewide in Michigan has the last name of Trump.
If you you know, it was a I think is Weigel.
It's been since twenty fourteen that a Republican not named
Trump has been able to win anything.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
And then we have a governor, governor who's on the
national and right right, who's got a scandal hanging over
our heads.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
So yeah, so let's start with a simple way of
looking at this. And this is sort of your sweet spot.
You grew up in this state, you live in this
state now, your family, I mean, you're sort of your
your DNA is Michigan. What makes it these days the
probably our best microcosm, and that stuff changes, right you know,

(39:14):
We've we've been there when Florida was the microcosm. We've
been there when when Ohio is the microcosm, And right
now it feels like it's Michigan.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Why I think, I think Michigan has always been a
great bell weather if you believe that politics is at
the uh at the is the tail that's not being
wagged by the dollar dog. If you believe that, to
understand how politics is changing. You have to understand how
people are changing. So Michigan has been a place for

(39:42):
the last generation or two where all these cross currents
of change, UH, economic change, demographic change, technological technological change,
globalization are making life so difficult uh for michigan Anders,
and UH their institutions are. I have been letting them
down by the boatload for the last generation or two,

(40:03):
and that has created a very disruptive, angry, frustrated electorate
that swings back and forth, desperate, so desperate for change,
I'll do desperate things like voting for Donald Trump. So
it's not always been as much of a you know,
the Florida Florida, Florida every cycle, but I tell you
it helped me be a fairly good political reporter, even

(40:23):
when I was living in Washington, coming back here six
or seven or eight times a cycle talking to folks
in northern Michigan. In twenty fourteen, when I first wrote
that Donald Trump could become president, it was because of
the makeup of the people of the state, that they're
very reflective of how people are being let down by
their politics and they're looking for something big and different.

(40:47):
You know.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
One of the one of the hallmarks of your career.
I feel like, at least since I've gotten to know you,
is you've always been trying to figure out what you're missing, right,
And you know you're missing something like this, the left
right paradigm of political coverage in Washington you can't avoid
as much as you know when you're sitting as the
AP Washington correspondent or the AP buwer chief or you're

(41:10):
moderator of Meet the Press. At the end of the day,
those are the two that you know we're I always say,
Washington's a company town, and same way Detroit's a company town, right,
Washington's a company town, and you know it's the d's
and the rs. And yet you and I have both
been knows there's this other entity out there, there's the disaffected.
They're the ones that decide who temporarily has power. You know,

(41:33):
I'm going to bring up a book. I believe it
was a book, Applebee's America, right, and we're trying to
that goes back probably now twenty years or pretty close
to twenty years. But in some ways I bring it
up because I watch what Mike Dougan is doing in
the governor's race, and it is like, can you can
you have a conversation with voters without the overhang of

(41:58):
the baggage of the two parties, And you've constantly been
looking to have that conversation. Mike Duggan's trying to have
that conversation, and yet I feel like it's harder than
ever to have a conversation with voters without the overhang
of the two major parties.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
It is because so many voters have used a new
technology is self isolate themselves in their intellectual bubbles and
their biases. But Dougan is onto something here. There's not
very many political operatives in the state whould agree with me.
But right now, Chuck, I'm telling you Mike Duggan is
the front runner in this race. First of all, he's
been running for governor for fifteen years. He's been going

(42:32):
around the state with this incredible PowerPoint presentation that he
puts together every year. First for that big Macanaw, that
conference and Macanaw that I know you go to where
he touts Detroit's revitalization. Well, he's been delivering that in
rural towns all over the state for ten years. He's
really tapped into this idea that both parties are letting

(42:54):
you down. You need politics that can get something done.
Look what we've done in Detroit. Then there's something that's
interesting going on. All these Trump voters, my neighbors and
friends in northern Michigan, these folks who first told me
that they were so desperate they might vote for this
clown on the Apprentice, they're starting to take a serious
look at at at dug In. And this isn't just anecdotal.

(43:15):
There's polls to back this up, but anecdotally when I'm
hearing Chuck is these are folks who grew up in Detroit,
black eyed did or whose hears up and up there,
and they moved up there, Chuck, there is This is
a literal fact. There is a retired fire Detroit firefighter
or retired police Detroit police officer in every county in

(43:37):
the state of Michigan.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
How about that interesting? So there was a Detroit DNA
in almost the same way New York City DNA infects
the entire state of New York.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
There is too many people. There's too many people. A
million people in the state in nineteen sixty and now
more than a third of them live north of Detroit.
So they have an affinity for Detroit. There's a little
you know, racial anime is still in the north of
eight miles stuff, But they have an affinity for Triton.
Here's this pudgy white guy from the suburbs got elected

(44:07):
when the Democratic machine was so opposed to him ten
years ago that they ran a candidate named Duggan against
him on the Democratic primary. He had a run as
a writing candidate, my doug.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Day in the primary to win and a right he
one a is a write in. This is like, I
don't write this guy's chances off as an independent. I'll
voice some skepticism in here to push back at you
in a minute. But I but I But you got
to know Duggan's history to realize that this guy's done
done the impossible before.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Well and working with partnership with business leaders and nonprofits,
he's done the impossible. He's helped bring Detrope back for bankruptcy.
But as a politician he's out of the Democratic machine,
which is the Aerne here. Oh and he's got a
lot of baggage.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
His son ran Biden's Michigan campaign in twenty twenty and
was in charge of Biden and Harrison twenty twenty four.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
And he's no saint. There's a lot of skeletons and
the closet that will come out that. You know, the
opposition research is going to be huge. But he's done
some remarkable political things. And what he's done in Detroit
isn't just a nostalgia thing playing with folks on the right,
but it's also how many politicians do you know in
this state, in this country who've actually got something done?
Who said I'm going to get the garbage picked up sooner,

(45:18):
and the garbage gets picked up sooner. Who says I'm
going to have the ambulances arrive on time and they
started arriving in time. Who says I'm going to improve
bus service, and improve bus service? Is Detroit where it
needs to be?

Speaker 1 (45:27):
No?

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Is he a perfect man?

Speaker 1 (45:29):
No?

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Are the rules rigged against an independent candidate?

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Hell?

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yes, but this guy could win it.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
You know, it's interesting that the impression I got last
year being at Mackinaw and then a couple of times
that I have visited places in Michigan that weren't Detroit.
You know, before I've got I've had family in the
southeastern part of the state for years. I've been I
used to go to Monroe, Michigan every summer for about

(45:57):
ten straight years. That's where all the.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
State you know, Monroe, you know the state.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah yeah, and Monroe really is you know, I mean Monroe, Monroe,
shock Absorbers and lazy Boy. That was the heart and
soul of the economy there. And what you've noticed over
the last thirty years was animus towards Detroit by everybody
else in Michigan. Right, there was an anti Detroit vibe

(46:23):
and in fact, in fact, if you were a candidate
for office, the Democratic Party was looking for candidates not
from Detroit, and the Republican Party was running against Detroit
to win statewide. And it worked for some time. It
was the counter no difference than you'd see candidates run
against New York City my home state in Florida, candidates

(46:44):
would run against Miami. You know, you don't want whatever
your and something since dug it and it's like, I
you know, maybe a little bit of this is the
Detroit Lions, and a little bit of this is you know,
I got to give them a little credit too. But
the positive vibe about the Detroit great Brandt and you
have to go and visit Michigan and have been and

(47:07):
have been there when it was and understood the anti
Detroit vibe that used to That's not how the place
feels anymore.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Like the first come here in c Detroit. It's remarkable, No,
it is.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
I was just there last week, and you know, I
love that they just put all the stadiums in the
same place. That's what Philadelphia did, and walked down.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Look, it's one hundred and thirty eight square miles. My
old neighborhood is the third World. You know, there's still
some really durable poverty, and illiteracy is still in Hunger
is still endemic. But it's been remarkable what this city's done.
You mentioned that the Lions people forget the NFL Draft
was here last year. There was. There was hundreds of

(47:47):
thousands of people downtown, including a shitload of for example,
of Green Bay Packers, fans from the Upper Peninsula. Okay,
folks who have not been in Detroit for twenty thirty,
forty fifty years and had a stereotype of member right,
but two stereotypes. One is the racially tinged, ruined porn

(48:07):
but the other is the Detroit they grew up on
or their parents told them about and it's that nostalgic Detroit. Now,
it's that gritty Detroit. It's that we can do anything,
including by the way, maybe elected independent, independent governor, that
we can do anything. We can go over up from
the bootstraps that is Detroit, that maybe Mike Douggan can
turn around that history you're talking about. There hasn't been

(48:28):
a mayor from Detroit elected governor, you know, over a century.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
But this is a standard and that's been standard big
city politic. It's been very red. Rendell was the first
Billy mayor to ever get elected statewide. No New York
City mayor to this day has been able to become
governor of the true Yeah, so it is there is
this sort of weird bias at times against the big
especially when you're a one when there's just one city

(48:51):
that dominates first, it's usually racial. Certainly it is almost
the east of the Mississippi. It's almost always been black white.
But it is flipped.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
It could be an asset for Dugan.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
Well, it's a sense that like I get the sense
people root for Detroit now right, there was a sense
of like it wasn't like oh you did this to yourself,
who cares. Now it's like, no, hey, they're actually doing
the hard work. Let's help.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
And the trumpiest, most racially conflicted anti Detroit people I've
known my whole life in this state are now saying,
I want to give this dug and guy a look.
And I'm looking forward to going down to he tried
to see a ball game or or go see a
play or Yeah. So it's it's pretty remarkable how things

(49:40):
have changed.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
And yet I look at Discovernor's race that I think, boy,
you know, usually when there's an independent that has a chance,
it's because one of the two parties has completely failed.
In fairness to both parties. Here, I think, you know,
I'm gonna, you know, forget your own personal leanings. John James,
Jos Benson, Mike Douggan. Those are three highly qualified candidates.

(50:04):
You're like, those are reasonably sort of convened what I
would call conventionally qualified.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
That's that may be their problem though, Chuck, Yes, I think.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
One is a congressman, one Secretary of State in some
ways almost two part of the system.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
And then that's what he's playing against. Now. Benson's raising
out of the money, not as much as Douggan. He's
out raised everyone. She fits the Michigan The conventional wisdom
is Benson should be able to win because she's she's
a woman in the state that Whitmer won. She's she's this.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Is a state that elects women quite a bit. Jennifer Granholm,
Gretchen Whitmer, Bless the socket, Debbie Stabenow. You know this
is not there's ceiling the break here, right. That ceiling
got broken a long time ago in Michigan.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
But but the parties, both parties here are weak and
ineffective and aren't getting anything done. So, yeah, she's got
a good resume. James has got a good resume. He's
got a reputation over be someone who doesn't work hard.
And this is a this is a big state. It's
hard to get around, and you got to work hard
in the state. Dugan works hard. I'd watch a guy
named Tom Leonard, the former House speaker, who just got

(51:10):
in the race and is a hard worker and has
got a profile. He's starting to get some attention from
the from the Republican money. But you know where the
Republican money is going in this race again.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Right now? Well, sitting all the non MAGA money, right.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
The additional country club money, the Gary targos of the world,
and and uh.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Well it's really the world and Dan Gilbert.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Dan Gilbert, who's the big people don't know is the
big mortgage? Uh got Rocket mortgage?

Speaker 1 (51:40):
You may know Rocket mortgage. That's Dan Gilbert, right.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
It's it's it's it's that kind of that profile here
that is sending money Dugan's way. But so, uh, Dugan
is running against the duopoly. Ducan is running against politics
as usual. It's a pretty effective message in an independent
minded state that is looking that is so desperate for change.

(52:03):
It voted twice for Trump ken conventional candidate win. Yes,
but but they could be defeated. So and he's pulling,
by the way in the polls. He's pulling from the
right end the left right now. The Democrats are going
to have a hard time hanging the spoiler label around him.
That could change, but right now he's pulling evenly from

(52:23):
both sides.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Right, I've seen that. And it does feel as if
though that his biggest problem is the further you get
away from Detroit, the the harder he's got to work
in order to be considered on the same page. Like,
because this is the tyranny of running as a third
party candidate, which is eventually people's habits, well, do we

(52:47):
vote D or R. Honey, oh yeah, we're de voters
and you know, and they pull the lever. Governor's races
are slightly different in that sense, but the major parties
still have such a pull. I mean, I always go back.
It was a great four way remember when Kinky Friedman
ran for governor in Texas. But it wasn't just you

(53:07):
had Rick Perry. You had a former Republican running as
an independent, Scott McClellan's mother, if you remember to really
put it, yeah, and she was sort of getting all
the Democratic money. She was the trial lawyer, ex Republican
getting scooping up money. There was an underfunded former one
term member of Congress who got the Democratic nomination who

(53:29):
literally had no money. He finished second because there were
so many people just used to going into the polls
and pulling the d lever. He was outspent by both
Kinky Friedman and the other candidate, I believe, and yet
the power of being one of the two major brands
was enough for second place. And so that's that's my

(53:52):
sort of skepticism about Doug. And how does he overcome
that that aspect, which is which is not easy.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
The only way, it's a very good point, The only
way he could overcome it if if this this anecdotal
somewhat backed up by polls, is this this analysis I'm
giving you of of the state being filled with people
who have an affinity for Detroit and who hate politics,

(54:19):
hearing from a guy who is saying I've done it before,
I fixing this before. And they will hear from Mike Doug.
And he will raise enough money to be heard, and
he'll work his butt off to be here. He'll travel,
you know, to every mody club in the state.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
I think he has to make the case that Gretchen
was a failed governor. Now maybe he won't be afraid
to make it. And what is the case? I mean,
that's the thing what makes yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Gotta be careful. I gotta be careful here because I'm
a support of hers and and and I like her personally,
but there's always a case of it make against incumbents.
First of all, in this day and age, we're the
third highest unemployment rate in the state. Uh. She does
have very high approval ratings, But I think in this environment,

(55:06):
there's a bubble there that could hit, especially as she
gets closer to being a lame duck, and there is,
you know, an emerging scandal kind of bubbling out around
out there. Her one of her biggest donors got a
twenty million dollar grant through the Michigan Economic Development Corporation
with no strings attached. And now her fellow Democrat, another

(55:28):
to your point, female leader in the state, Dana Nessel,
the head of the Attorney General's office, is running an
embezzlement investigation into the administration. She subpoenaed and they rated
one of Governor Whitmer's agencies. It hasn't gotten a lot
of attention from Detroit Free Press. The Detroit News is
all over it, right, and if and the Whitmer folks

(55:50):
are not in front of the story, if they're not careful,
it could become a national story, and it could be
an anvil. So you can't just assume that, just like
I'm not assuming Doug is going to win, you can't
you can't assume that Doug in won't have the ability,
and for that matter, Benson won't have that ability or

(56:11):
even the need. Benson being the Democrat one of the
Democratic leaders that they won't be able to and even
need to post off of Whitmer.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Well, I don't know. I mean, if you're Jocelyn Benson,
I think it's tough to run against Whitmer.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Right now it is Chuck, but it might not be
a year from now.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Oh that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Yeah, Well, you know, we got we got to look
around the corner of these things, and where is Whitmer
going to be six months from now and and again
in the climate where one thing that unites voters is
they're tired of the status quo. I just don't think
it's going to work to say I'm going to do
it like she did. She's going to have to separate
herself somehow from gumnor Whitmer. To me, the question is

(56:53):
how much is she going to need to Is it
just hey, I'm my own I'm my own person, or
is it I will do things radically different from her times.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
So one of the let me give you a lefty
argument that I've heard against Whitmer that by extension would
go against the current speaker that I guess is thinking
about jumping into the Senate race. I think or or,
which is simply if you compare Whitmer to Walls right.
Both got there. You know, both had unified control of

(57:20):
their legislatures. Here's what Walls did, and it was sort
of a progressive wish you know, he checked off a
lot of progressive wish lists. Whitmer did not. Now, I know,
the argument I'd be making if I were in Whitmer's
shoes is, hey, we're a moderate state. We're not. You know,
we weren't elected to do this lefty wish list. We
were elected to do this.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
But I did, and I did take the lead on
on abortion right.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
Yes, but the argument I've heard that the that the
left might make is too cautious. Didn't you know, didn't
sort of she had power. You know, if you if
you're not going to use power when you get it,
what's the point of having it?

Speaker 2 (58:00):
You just sound like what you sound like, Mike Duggan.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
Yeah, that seems to be they left the argument against
Whitper that is, that is.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
An argument that could be made against Whitmer and good Stick.
It's the kind of argument you could hear Mike Dougan doing.
It's certainly the argument you could you could hear from
the right. And if I'm Benson. If I'm the Lieutenant
Governor Gil Chris, who's also in that Democratic army, right,
I'm looking to make that argument partly just by default

(58:30):
that again you've got to run against the status quo
in American politics. But number two, I do think there
is some air in her approval ratings that that might
be seeping out here the next few months.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Yeah, look, I mean Wimer has just had a tough
six months, hasn't she. I mean when you look at
the Trump where where you know? To me the photo
that will you know? Sometimes you know there are certain
images and moments that you realize, oh my god, that's
going to stick with you forever, for better or for worse. Right,
In fact, I think there's a new one with Trump,

(59:07):
the drop golf ball, right that that what else do
you need to explain Donald Trump's presidency and the and
the idea just that that's it a lack a lackeyp
shooting for him a million words, not a thousand words,
that's a million words. Her hiding behind the folder like
it is just a you're like boy, if that doesn't

(59:32):
like scream, you're not in command, You're afraid to lead? Right?
What and it's like it's one of those I don't
know how you explained it away.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Yeah, you know, on the policy side, you got to
give her credit for recognizing that her job was to
be governor, not to be running for president.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
What's the promise she made voters. She made voters that hey,
I'll work with whoever's president Michigan. That's right.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
She got us a new air wing from Trump at
the Selfage Air for a space here in Macomb County.
She got some slicing off of the terrorists for the
auto industry. But you know, politics is perception and it
says everything you're saying plus something else. The first test

(01:00:21):
I think a presidential Canada has to pass. And I
saw Bill Clinton pass this even before his big DLC
speech in Cleveland in ninety one. It's having the right
people around you, recognizing that the people who made you
governor aren't going to make you a president. Governor with
m know, I love the people around her, they're good people,
they're good public servants. But she never should have been

(01:00:44):
in that room. And then when she walked in that room,
or when they were walking into the room and realized
it was a news conference, somebody should have thrown their
body in front of her, you know, and then she
walked out of the room and came back in. Well,
you know that's political malths practice times too. Could you
mentione Bill Clinton walking into that ambush without a plan

(01:01:06):
and if he if he found himself in that ambush,
would he not have found himself away out of it?
Or an Anne Richards? You know, this isn't a gender thing.
It's a it's a political athlete thing. But hiding behind
a folder is.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
It'scas in the tank. I'm sorry, that's what it is.
It's caucus in the tank. Now here's the thing about
Governor Whimer. I've always wondered if Governor Wimmer really wants
to become president. She really doves love the state, she
loves the job she has, she might have her eye
on something else. I'm not convinced that she that she's
going to run the next cycle. If she really wanted
to be president, she should have stepped up early in

(01:01:44):
the very twenty four cycle called primary Biden and she
knew you know what, I think she'd be president. Now, yeah, no,
I had this, I had the exact collage. I've had
this conversation with Gavin newsom, I said, you know, in fact,
I thought the only way he could ever get become
president is to actually, like, you're not going to win
an open race for the presidency as the former mayor
of San Francisco, but you might as the dragon slayer

(01:02:06):
right in a primary, right like that might be your only,
your only path to it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Without naming names, she was urged privately by people who
admire her and who could see that Biden should not run.
She was begged to get in it and told this
is your window. And I think she decided not just
that this isn't my window, but maybe this isn't a
job I want. She didn't tell me that, her people
haven't told me that. I'm just I'm just reading between
the lines here.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
Well, I could tell you this. Nobody's The only person
to get elected president being risk averse was Joe Biden,
and in my lifetime, like most every other elected president,
good point had to take took a real risk that,
in some form or another that conventional consultants would have said,
don't do it. Right, Obama was told not to run.

(01:02:50):
You know, I always thought Hillary Clinton was too risk averse.
In fact, had she well, it's she'd have been president
if she'd run an O four. But she didn't have
the guts to do it. Then I understand, but it
was it was she would well, that was probably her window.
Obama knew if he waited, he probably never gets elected.
And Bill Clinton, everybody said, don't run against this guy, Bush?

(01:03:13):
And Bill did you know? I want to go to
Bill Clinton here a minute, because you were there the
last time the Democrats had a real fight about its direction.
And a question that I that haunts me is I
don't know if the Democrats have lost enough to know
what they do to me when you lose as close
as they lost. There's too many it's too easy to

(01:03:36):
tactically talk yourself into well, if we just do this,
this or this, you know. The she lacking of Ducacas
in eighty eight gave breathing room for Bill Clinton to
make a counter argument, an argument that the DLC was
trying to make before eighty eight was making progress but

(01:03:56):
not quite getting there, and then really made progress after
the shelling. I wonder if Democrats have lost enough to
have the conversation they need to have.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
No, they haven't. They should have losing once to Donald
Trump should have been enough. They lost to a clown.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
You know, they convinced themselves that it was oh it
was the referees. Essentially, it was the referee. And then
it's a classic case of blaming. Trust me.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Ohio State stole a national title from the University of Miami.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
It was the ref's fault, you know. But you know
what the dirty little secret was to that game. Miami
played like shit the entire game. The Ohio State never
should have had a chance to be in the game.
Is that Miami's fault? Is it the ref's fault? Right?
And Hillary be in a shitty campaign and she shouldn't
have been in a close enough where the refs could
make a difference.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
The Democrats have been running a shitty campaign, playing a
shitty game for twenty five years.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Chuck, Well, I'd say Obama play account R two really
good national Yeah, but eight and twelve are the outline. Well,
I'd actually say six, eight, and twelve are the three
best years for the Democrats. And they were mission you know,
you could see it, right, they had a mission and
they were running as different types of Democrats. They haven't

(01:05:06):
done that since.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
The other big thing that's changed since Clinton's time was
back then Democrats had to hear from people who told
them you suck. Now they don't. Now they're able to
walk around in their intellectual bubbles and tell each other
we only lost by a little, a little much. It's
the referees fall.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Oh I Kamala Harris just had ninety more days.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Right where now you don't have to hear the truth
if you're on the left or the right. And as
far as Biden goes, yeah, he's the first risk to
averse to win in their lifetime. But he really didn't
win that election. I know Trump lost it. You know
it was that by default. Yeah, But I my big

(01:05:45):
fear large in politics is not just at Democrats or
Republicans aren't going to learn their lesson because they're always
winning or losing by a little bit. It's with we're
always going to have these swing elections that really don't
swing that much, right, Chuck, it's either side wins are
losing by a few seats, wins are losing by a
few percentage points. We're not going to kind of it.
We're not going to have the kind of top to

(01:06:07):
bottom institutional reform, huge reform movement like we had one
hundred years ago in this country unless one of these
parties builds a super majority and then does something with it.
So builds a super majority like Obama did in two
thousand and eight, but then get an office and use
that movement to force change on the political system, which
Barack Obama did not. I'm afraid where we have a

(01:06:30):
duopoly that is very satisfied by by just winning or
losing by a little bit and being up against an
opponent who is batted up to beat, and we're not
going to have the kind of categoricalism and politics we
do not just to wake up one party that they
need to do better, but for us as people to

(01:06:51):
realize we deserve better and we have to demand better,
and we need we need to reform those political systems,
the structures, the institutions to ange politics and make this
country survive another couple of years.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
Anybody out there, you know, and I when I talk
to what's interesting right now for what it's with is
anytime I interview somebody running for governor and it hasn't
mattered whether it was Jocelyn Benson and the politics and
brose event, or it has been Rob sand in Iowa,
or it's been David jolly in Florida. I'll ask them,
who are some model governors? You know who in the

(01:07:35):
first name out of their mouth is Andy Bashier and
the second name out of their mouth is Josh Shapiro,
and then after that it's a grab back. But the
two governors I hear the most about are Bashir in Shapiro.
Do you see Bill Clinton in any one of them?

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
Now I'm a little bit biased because you know, I
watched Clinton up close.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
I thought, I mean, you were there, you were the
little rock bureau chief, which really, I mean you were
on Clinton starting with eighty six was it eighty six? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Yeah? And he was an incredibly accessible governor, so I
literally followed him around the Capitol getting a PhD in politics.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
And Hillary Clinton too. You had an incredible relationship with
her for a while.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
I did. I had a great working relationship with both
of them. But no, I just don't see. Look, I
understand what the appeal people see in both of them.
They're very, very good communicators. They've got a lot of
done in their states, but I just don't see them
as as transformational. I just don't see them as quite
the political athlete that Bill Clinton was, who really loved

(01:08:34):
policy and it was great at politics and lived at
the intersection. There's a senate candidate here. We haven't moved
to the Senate here in Michigan. I'll put on your radar.
Everybody's talking about mcmurrow, who's my state senator and a
talented politician and someone who really understands story modern storytelling.

(01:08:54):
And everybody misfamiliar with Haley Stevens, who's the direaling of
the uh D s c C of Schumer in the
in the political class.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
Could be a kiss of death if she's not careful.

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
Yeah, and yes, yes, but there's a third candidate there
that I recommend you take a look at. Abdul say Ed,
who's who's a medical degree from Columbia, a pH d
from Oxford. He ran for governor in the Democratic primary
in Whitmer's first race and was beat by her, but
learned his lessons. Hugely ambitious, but the kind of ambition

(01:09:28):
where he's trying to figure out why he lost and
what he needs to do to do better. Great communicator, young,
understands social media. He is a policy wonk. You know,
he's a doctor, he's a.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
Scientists a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
Reads a lot thinks a lot and knows how to
talk like a good doctor does. He's got good bets
at man or right say, And that could be interesting
if Malory mcmurrall doesn't emerge as the opponent to Haley Stevens,
the congresswoman who who's the conventional favorite, it'd be a

(01:10:03):
fascinating race between Aldusa Ed and Stevens.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
Because you would have Ed has Bernie Sanders support already? Right, yes, sir,
So you would have look at you would have left.
You would have Bernie versus uh Biden. Basically, you know,
Bernie versus Schumer. You would have Left versus Center versus Left.
You would have Israel versus Palestines. You would have Abdul
say Ed, who's a who's a very strong supporter of

(01:10:29):
the Palestinian movement, and Stevens, who's a who's very proud
and strong supporter of of Israel. You know, you're talking
about Michigan being a template for what's happening in the
rest of the country and the rest.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Of the world. That could be a heck of a
heck of a face off.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
So where does mcmarrow fit into this and are you
do you sense that she's like I sense some she
like she's got the outsider lane without being tagged as
a progressive. Maybe that I don't know if that's a
positive or negative.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
Yeah, I'm conflicted about her personally. I really like her
if she's a neighbor. I just saw her the other
day in the library with her kids. I mean, she's
a great politician and a great storyteller, and I mean
in an authentic way. She's really good communicator. But she
just and she's raised quite a bit of money, but
there's just something about it that really hasn't broken through.
And I to be honest with you, I think it's

(01:11:18):
a it's a bias. I don't want any telling about
what I don't want to miss. I don't want to
miss siy Ed. So a lot of people have written
him off, and I'm keeping my eye on him. So
maybe I'm just not you know, I'm balancing it out
by not not falling in love with her candidacy. There's
there's three really good candidates on the Democratic side. One
of them is going to emerge to run against Rogers,
Mike Rogers, who's almost for sure going to ruin the

(01:11:40):
Republican nomination. If it's Stevens. It's going to be a
repeat of the Slockins Rogers race that slock can barely
want almost and Stockin's a better politician than Steven's, which
is not fair and Stevens because Slocken is an A
plus politician and it's an i'll do if it's if
it's say ed, then you've got Bernie versus uh, Maga,

(01:12:01):
You've got young versus old, you know, boomer versus millennial.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
He could win that race.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
It is interesting to me that the Republican Party is
not behaving as a divided party right as it has
in the in the recent past of Michigan. Both James
and Rogers looks like they're going to be essentially avoid
the uncomfortable primary that is that has dogged so many Republicans.
Are you convinced that now Rogers?

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
I think so. But James could James could face a
tough race from Leonard. Watch Tom Leonard.

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
You do think that you know it is would he
hit him from the left of the would he hit
him from the business community or from the MAGA right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
From the business community, which you know you could you
could write that off. But look at James is not
a hard worker. James has a reputation for being an
empty suit. James, He's an on paper candidate. I know
a lot of the there they look great on paper.
He's an on paper candidate, and Entergy is an on
the ground candidate. Just don't write them up. It's it's

(01:13:04):
it's he.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
Sounds like you think that if what if a if
one republic you wake up, you go in to a coma,
you wake up day after the election day, I tell
you one Republican one the statewide, you would assume it's Rogers,
not James.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
If you told me I want to be Rodgers, Yeah,
oh yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
Why do you lose the last time.

Speaker 2 (01:13:21):
He ran against a generational candidate? Slockin is really good.
Slockin is really good. Slockin's position to run for president Now,
I'm convinced you.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
Are sooner than we think. You think if Whitmer doesn't,
I mean, everybody in does feel like there's some deference
to Whitmer, at least for now. You're I mean, obviously,
you know Barring, you know things can change quickly in politics.
But well, yeah, does she show deference to Whitmer for
twenty eight or do you think of Slotkin, is that
interested this or in her?

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
For one? Has I already suggested, I'm not. I don't
think Whitmer runs in twenty eight. I think Whitmer, mister window.
I'm not convinced Whitmer wants to be president. Whitmer is
going to be another former governor in twenty two eight.
I like Whitmer. I think she'd been a good governor.
But no, I if I had to pick one Democrat

(01:14:09):
who's going to run for president twenty A be Slocking again.
You talk about windows interesting Slocking. Slocking doesn't mind taking risk.
She took risk her whole career. You know she was
she was an intelligence officer. You know, she's trying to
figure out the third way for the Democratic Party. And
then she's young, she's ambitious, she's smart. I could see
running for the White House one of the things that

(01:14:31):
By the way, I'm just making this up now. Her
people have told me this. I don't know. I don't know.
I'm not a reporter anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
But but you're just one of the You just you
did your ten thousand hours. I think you're an expert.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
I guess the question I would have as on Duggan.
You know, if he wins, when you win a swing
state like Michigan, immediately right, whoever the governor is, Right,
if John James is governor, he's the number one draft
pick on running list, right for the Republicans, right Vance James,
Oh my god, you got to pick him. Right, We
know that one hundred percent if Dugan went. Now, you know,

(01:15:11):
I'm I'm torn on this. I think we live in
an environment where when you and I were first covering politics,
you know, the idea of running in the midterm and
then winning and immediately turning around and running for president
would be punished by the electorate. But I do think
this is an electorate so desperate for new and different

(01:15:32):
that if new and different it wins in a place
like Michigan, that suddenly there's there's a whole bunch of
people going. You know, I've always wondered if we could
have an alternative to the duopoly? Why not him? Now,
to me, you've got to do something before you become
the Why not him? Do you sense that kind of
ambition in Dugan or not.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
He's a very ambitious man. He went to got where
he is. If he wasn't ambitious I don't know if
he has a site in the White House, but I'm smiling,
chuck because my last job in journalism was at Crainey
Detroit Business. I was publisher of that publication. In a
twenty eighteen I think I wrote a column that he
should run for president because of what I'm saying about

(01:16:15):
him now, but more importantly, when I'm saying about the
electric now in a state of politics, and listen, let's
put everything together. We've been saying, you need to know
what your window is. You got to take a risk
if you want to be president, Doug And why wait?
People are desperate for change, or so desperate they do
desperate things. If an electorate is capable of electing Donald Trump,

(01:16:36):
I'll the capable electing a former Democratic mayor of Detroit
who's not an independent. Sure, I mean, don't rule anything out.
Is Dougan ambitious enough to make a run for it?
I guarantee he's not thinking about it now. He wants
to be governor. But if he saw a window and
he knows there's a need, I wouldn't rule it out.
But it's a great question. I haven't thought of it,

(01:16:56):
but I sure' how I wouldn't rule it out.

Speaker 1 (01:16:58):
Well, that's the you know, I'm i am. It is
so obvious to me that we need sort of a restructuring,
like you know, and we know the only thing the
two parties agree on is preventing a third party from
getting traction. It's about it these days.

Speaker 2 (01:17:12):
And a fourth party in the fifth Party. Yeah, they
don't want to open up politics. You know, communications have
been democratized, but politics has not been.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
And if you look it is it seems to me
we've been living in an era where there's this small
group of voters who totally are dissatisfied and they just
keep voting. It's not right there. I'm gonna stop voting
a way.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
Yeah, there's a huge percentage of voters who are dissatisfied.
Many of them put on their blue and red jersey,
but shuck, there's a huge appetite out there. You know,
there's there's eighty percent of the public who's dissatisfied with
politics it is today. Just because sixty percent or sixty
five percent of that eighty puts on a redder blue
jersey doesn't mean that a new form of politics couldn't

(01:17:52):
drag them out of into a new form of politics.
I'm sorry interrupt you, but no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
A small group of people who are just well, it's
a small group that have been willing to keep going
back and forth right right, who say, well vote them
out now, I'm going to vote them out, and none
of them. And it's like, why do they you know,
why do these president? Why do both Biden and Trump
immediately are a basically forty five percent or under before
the end of their first six months. It's because they were, like, well,

(01:18:17):
why I didn't love for that. I just didn't want that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
You know, that's American politics, going back to seventeen seventy
six and eighteen sixty five and nineteen thirty two and
nineteen sixty eight and nineteen ninety one. Nothing changes in
politics until it freakin does. Okay, I can't look around
the corner and tell you what it's going to be.
I can't. I can't particular exactly. I'm not even sure

(01:18:42):
it's going to happen, but I know this. It needs
to happen. We need drastic change. It can happen. I
don't know what it is, but we got to stop
defending the status quo. And I know you don't do this.
You're I just loved your What you write on substack
is you're one of the few people who's been around
a long time shock who does wave the white flag
is surrender and say change can't happen.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
No, I mean it's the old it is. It's you know,
it's just like bankruptcy. You know, first it happened slowly,
then it happens quickly. You know it is you know,
you know it's going to come. Let's talk about media leadership.
You and I both have been in leadership positions at
traditional media companies. You at the Associated Press, National Journal
in the Atlantic, myself at NBC, also at National Journal,

(01:19:25):
at for for for for Stent, And I'll be honest,
I always felt like I had bosses who did have
my back for the most part. Okay, you know Andy Lack, Deboraterness,
Steve Cappus. These are the three news presidents that that
that I was major, spent a majority of my time with,
and they ultimately I always thought, you know, if ship

(01:19:47):
hit the fan, they were going to defend my reporting.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
First.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
I am stunned. I know, you could be shocked but
not surprised, or is it surprised and not shocked. I
don't know whatever, whatever whatever version you want to use
to that there's been first. It was when the Associated
Press was was kicked out for obvious First Amendment reasons. Wait,
nobody defended them when I see what Brendan Carr, who

(01:20:13):
literally is violating the First Amendment in what they're doing
with CBS, and no network president or no owner of
a media consortium that has a news division is saying, hey,
wait a minute, this isn't you know this is this
is not what what the relationship is supposed to be

(01:20:33):
that it's just cowering it. I don't think they fully
realize what they've done to their own journalists. I mean
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:20:41):
I don't think they care. I don't think they care.
Look our career, Chuck, spans a huge divide. The first
half of our career roughly was pre internet, and the
second half was post internet. The first half was a
business model of.

Speaker 1 (01:20:55):
Gate keepers, and that was you know, there was there.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
Was a business model that made a newspaper thirty percent profit,
and TV probably more based on the idea that you
built as an objective of a newsroom, as you could
that spoke truth to power. You could create a big
audience and put a Montgomery ad or in your case TV,
a car dealership ad and print money. What happened in
the early odds, early to mid adds is that business

(01:21:20):
model was destroyed by the Internet and UH newspaper publishers
and TV broadcasters. The people who owned first, a lot
of them went out of business. And then those who
are left consolidated, corporatized and now are focused like a
laser beam on the bottom line because that's what they

(01:21:41):
have to do. They there was a business incentive to
let Walter Kronkite be Walter Kronkite's. That's why they left
them alone because they were.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
Didn't do it because it was the right thing to do.
It did it because it was at the time it
made sense.

Speaker 2 (01:21:54):
So the real problem here is the business model. Again,
it's a wee the people problem. The real problem here
is Americans, now that we have access to communications, now
that we're all publishers, now that we all there aren't gatekeepers,
you know, Nick gepers of gatekeepers been destroyed. We only
want to hear information that confirms our biases. We don't
pay for news largely, and so the C suite is

(01:22:17):
left at its own devices. So I'm shocked and not
surprised that after a career where like you, the AP
always stood behind our reporting. David Bradley, our former victual
boss at The Atlantic, always to buy a reporting. My
owner here in Detroit, Casey Crane, still behind my reporting.
But you could see this happening that soon somebody came

(01:22:40):
in who was willing to defy norms and hold institutions hostage,
extort them, that the C suites would collapse as quickly
as the college presidencies are collapsing and many other institutions.
It's sad, it's depressing, it's horrifying actually, because it's it
could be the end of the First Amendment unless another

(01:23:02):
business model and here I would love to talk to
you about what you're working on, unless another business model
comes up, and I think it will where we can
find a way to make money again. On journalism that
speaks truth to power, that punches a president in the face,
that punches a city council person in the face, that
punches a police chief in the face. What A're really

(01:23:24):
going to take though, is an American public that's willing
to read news in opinions that challenge their biases, And
that's my big concern is, well those days ever come
back again?

Speaker 1 (01:23:34):
Yeah, I mean, I look, you know, I've the Polly
interview I have is that if you can meet people
where they are, if you can get them to trust
you on stuff that's important to them in their lives.
You know, if you're the place they will get to
watch their kid play sports, if you're a place that

(01:23:58):
is where you find photos of your nieces and fews
at a band concert, then over time, and if you're
also the place that helps them live their lives, helps
them save money on groceries, helps them find a cheaper
place to take their grand kids out to dinner, and
you becoming which is what the old You know, my
whole obsession is the newspaper bundle was brilliant. By the way,

(01:24:20):
only twenty percent of people read the news at that
time too. It was there was, but there was, there
was this incredible bundle, and I think more news publishers
have to think, Look, if you want truth to power,
to be even red or believed, you actually have to
be a service journalist ninety percent of the time. Ninety
percent of the time. You've got to treat the readers

(01:24:41):
like customers. You've got to help them, help them navigate government,
help them figure out if they need a umbrella, help
them figure out if they should take public transportation today
or Uber instead of driving today. You got to help
them live their lives, give them away, make their life easier,
and then if they trust you to help them live
their life, then that's how you build trust. Like, Okay,

(01:25:04):
now I got to tell you about this. You know
this really popular person that you really like, he's a crook.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
And let me explain to you in terms that you
understand that don't insult you, that don't call you stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
Don't talk down to them either.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
Right, you're onto something, Chuck, Because what's the other trend
line that tracked the destruction of the business model and
tracks the destruction of people's trust and participation in politics.
It's their lack of trust in all institutions since the
nineteen seventies, you know nothing we trust. The piece that

(01:25:37):
you remember me writing years ago that show that all
of our institutions were losing trust in them. Well, the
media is one of them. And if you could find
a way where people trust the news organization, and it's
a news organization that is relevant to them in a
way that news organizations stopped becoming relevant years ago. I
remember that you tried free press. When I was growing up,
the left hand side of the page, the bottom column

(01:25:59):
had a hard one phone at it. I wrote a
rephone at the top. You could call a number with
a problem and they would solve it and show transparently
how he solved it every day. I mean, it was
service journalism on the the top.

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:26:10):
You ever know the Bob Sheefer origin story?

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
You know, one of Bob, Bob Sheefer's you know, his
big break was a woman named Marina Oswald needed a
ride from Fort Worth to Dallas, and she didn't know
who else to call, so she called up the newspaper
and Bob answered the phone, Oh you need a ride,
I'll give you a ride.

Speaker 2 (01:26:27):
Right. I heard that story, but I never connected to
what you're talking about. It saw the newspaper as a
place to get a ride.

Speaker 1 (01:26:33):
Yes, help, And back in nineteen sixty three, you that
is what you did. That was not a crazy thing
to think today you wouldn't do it, but you went
to put back to the wood by.

Speaker 2 (01:26:43):
For that matter, Yeah, you went to done it. Most
of our careers actually you went to done it because
ethic kind of was lost even before we got into
the business. Holy shit, Yeah, no it is so so
can we build? Can can can you build something like that? Look,
that's my hope that it's that it's scaled well. Because
here's the other belief I have.

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
I don't think you and I don't think the AP
or NBC ever had natural trust with its audience. What
gave what gave NBC its audience is the local anchor
in the wd IV in Detroit. What gave you trust
was the Detroit Free Press and the AP and then
them running you were AP or the Grand Rapids Journal

(01:27:23):
or you know, and and when we got rid of
I always said, when we it's like a foundation of
a house. There's always a pillar that's doing more work
than you realize. When you have a you're like some
pillars are.

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
Doing an analogy.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
And local local news was our They were the trust.
We weren't. We're too distant, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):
I did something on sub sect the other day with
the new numbers that came out that showed how local
journalism has really even decimated, and I did some thinking
about as I'm running it, and I meant this it looked,
probably falsely humble, but I know that I My most
important work was at the Hot Spring Sentinel Record and
to a lesser extent, the Arkansas Democrat than it was
when I went to Washington, because I was doing the

(01:28:04):
kind of work you were talking about. I was writing
about things that mattered to people, and I would walk
out on the street, walk to church, walk to a restaurant,
walk to the ball field, and I'd be talking to
my readers, and you're right, with that pillar gone, No wonder,
we've lost the trust. So yeah, if you could rebuild it,
what better women through sports. Let me throw one more
at you.

Speaker 1 (01:28:25):
This is Richard Gingris over at the Google who used
to run the Google News Initiative. He made this case,
and I think it's a pretty good one. He said,
the worst thing to happen to journalism was all the
presidents meant.

Speaker 2 (01:28:36):
Oh, man, I know you're going with us finish.

Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
But he's right, which is you know, it made every
journalist think that unless you get my scalp, you're not
doing your job, when actually ninety percent of journalists or
public servants. Yeah, and when you lose the public service,
you are there to serve the public. Sometimes that's accountability,
and you do get a scalp pardon mind, I know
that that I apologize for those idea and meet it

(01:29:00):
in that dose terms.

Speaker 2 (01:29:01):
You know, you do get a notch on your belt.

Speaker 1 (01:29:03):
Look what I did. I telled truth to power. But
by the way, yeah right, that's the I'm too old.
This is what happens. We're too Hey, we're too we're
too old to do a metaphors anywhere that work.

Speaker 2 (01:29:16):
But you're you're right. But I describe Look how I
describe journalism myself. Just now, I was preaching about holding
you punching leaders in the mouth.

Speaker 1 (01:29:26):
And we need that. Don't get me wrong, but right.

Speaker 2 (01:29:28):
Now, it's not the central job. It's not right. It's
not the central job.

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
And I think that that's the disconnect, right. And in fact,
I look at the current I look at all the
current local news startups, and I love them. I'm you know,
I think you know, a thousand flowers balloon. Let's figure
it out. Everybody is a business model, Let's see which
ones work. My concern has been there's been too much
journalism for journalists and not enough journalism for everybody else.

Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
Yeah, I know, I wrote for editors my whole career. Man,
you're onto something. I wasn't as much as I want
to be what we're and Burnstein guy, but but I was,
you know, standing on that front road.

Speaker 1 (01:30:05):
I wasn't interested in Like, I wasn't thinking about how
am I helping somebody live their life? I was thinking
about how am I? You know, how am I going
to catch these guys in a bullshit moment like today?

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
And I want to get my lead on the wire
in the next thirty seconds. But but yeah, I mean,
if you could bring it back to the foundations where
we're helping people, especially the time when you go back
to you need to understand people to understand politics, Well,
maybe we need to understand people to understand the media
at a time when people are looking for someone to
navigate through their lives and they're not being helped by
anyone else. You know, this is a nation adrift. If

(01:30:40):
there could be media organizations that their sole purpose was
to help you figure out where to shop, how to
shop get your long cut, what schools to pick, how
to advocate for your kids, how to watch your kids' basebuggame.

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):
By the way, this is everything that this is everything.
The old newspaper did do. That's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
This isn't a new idea. It's just looking. It's an
idea that's been lost. Yes, and it's sort of unlocking
in it. But you do need to you know.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):
It's funny. You have a lot of the people that
want to fund these efforts and they're looking for we
need better accountability journalism. Yeah, well guess what. We have
too many journalists in Washington and not enough everywhere else.

Speaker 2 (01:31:20):
Yeah, one hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (01:31:21):
I don't know how you feel about your Detroit Lions.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
You know, for the first time my life, on bullish
because even if they don't go to the super Bowl,
even if they have a bed.

Speaker 1 (01:31:32):
You feel like they're going to be competitive. Yeah, for
the first time my life. They have a great leader.

Speaker 2 (01:31:36):
And Sheilah haamp Ford, who picked too.

Speaker 1 (01:31:39):
I'm impressed with her. She's finally the third What does
it take the third or fourth generation to get a
good leader?

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
Sometimes she did what the boys and her family couldn't do.
There needs to be a book on leadership written about
Sheilah hamp Ford. He's not getting enough credit. She decided
to start with the culture first, and she picked two
men who she thought were culture driven and said, you
two guys are going to get along. And when they
got off to a bad start, she stood behind them
like David Bradley did for us. You know good leaders do,

(01:32:09):
and and you know we have a great GM and
a great coach. It's a great culture in the locker room.
The city is crazy about them. It's just it's just amazing.
And now you know we have three and a half
decent teams in Detroit. So it's kind of a it
is something that the half is.

Speaker 1 (01:32:24):
That the Red Wings.

Speaker 2 (01:32:25):
Is that what you're referring to the Wings And even
that I clutched when I said it, because they're led
by Steve Eiserman, who who is second only to Gordie
Howe and the gods of Detroit. But but they've they've
had a hard time getting back in the playoffs. But
the Pistons had a great year and I feel like
they're in the right trajectory right like the Pistons are headed.

Speaker 1 (01:32:44):
You could feel it. They're they're coming. Maybe even the
Wings I think are too. The Wings just they're young.
And but like you say, you go downtown Detroit and
you can throw a baseball and hit off four or
all three stadiums, the Wings and the Pistons playing the
same and they're all beautiful stadium and a beautiful downtown
in a great city. I've watched Washington, d C. Transformed

(01:33:05):
its waterfront. Yeah, and you know this is what you know,
here's the thing, sport. It's funny, you know, I'm talking
about leaning on sports to sort of fix you know,
fix local news. Sports can really dramatically change the identity
of a city. Yeah, you know, and and and really
can give and can give you a new identity in

(01:33:27):
the mood of the city too.

Speaker 2 (01:33:29):
I mean, I've never seen you're a big college football fan,
and I'm not so the closest analogy would be, yeah,
U of M when they were hot. But I've just
never seen the city so excited in the fall. You know,
all week long we're all wearing a Honolulu and white
and talking about the Lions and proud of the team.

(01:33:50):
And it affects the mindset of the city as much
as it affects the image of the city.

Speaker 1 (01:33:57):
No, it's a you know, there was a time I
thought Detroit to be able to support four major league franchises.
Is it a big enough market anymore? And I think
we're getting the answer to that question.

Speaker 2 (01:34:07):
Hell, yes, it's a big metropolitan area and the stadiums
fill up with people from sixty miles around. That's the key.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
You know, I just realized something and I'm going to
make this some going to get real. One more political question.
We didn't mention labor unions once.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
Well, I told you something about labor unions, doesn't doesn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:34:27):
But is that I was just going to say, And
if I'd asked you which labor union could make a
difference politically in the state, which one would you say?
It is Teamsters UAW who.

Speaker 2 (01:34:38):
Both of those could make a difference on the margins,
but neither one is nearly the force that it was.
You can win in the state without either one of
the endorsements.

Speaker 1 (01:34:47):
And in fact, is the Teachers Union as powerful these
days as the UAW.

Speaker 2 (01:34:51):
Definitely, And the UAW, as you know, went through the
huge scandal and they have a new leader who's now
being investigated by the court. There's questions option around him.
It's one of the things that bothers me the most.
I came out of a union household. Most of my
family still works in the factories. The unions are still
important to people's lives. It's an institution that has has

(01:35:15):
let people down because they've been weakened, not just by politics,
and not just by Reagan, and not just by considering
they would weakened from within. They they have forgotten who
they serve. And I'm over generalizing here. They're kind of
like journalists who think that they're running for each other
instead of serving their constituents. And it's it hurts at

(01:35:39):
a time when my brother working at the Warren stamping
plant could really use somebody fighting for him. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:35:46):
No, I mean you look around. I've always said, you know,
I always have been done hot and cold and unions.
I'm like, if we didn't have them, i'd want them,
but you know, you know, and the threat of them
does keep corporate America from totally abusing its workforce. It's
sort of like they're a necessity, but boy, I wish
they were more effective.

Speaker 2 (01:36:03):
Well okay, yeah, and political organizations are in necessity, and
I wish you're more effective. Religious organizations are necessity. I
wish they were affected. Groups like Boy Scouts and Girl
Scouts are important, but I wish you were effective. That's
our problem. Our institutions are really freaking important, and I
wish they were more effective.

Speaker 1 (01:36:23):
I'm enjoying your substack. You like writing again, don't you?
I do?

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):
I do. I stopped writing for several years and I
needed it for political therapy. And it's so much ale.

Speaker 1 (01:36:33):
I'm sure did you. I love It's almost like riding
it's while it's like riding a bike. I'm sore the
first time I ride a bike. After a while, like
I mentally, man.

Speaker 2 (01:36:43):
You know, I'm getting back in the weekly habit.

Speaker 1 (01:36:45):
But man, I'll admit it is like you have to
be so easy.

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
Maybe because I've been writing for my clients for the
last eight years, so I didn't a problem with the writing,
and and I was. I thought i'd have a problem
coming up with a sharp opinion you have something to say,
but that hasn't been a problem. Your subsectal pissls me off,
to be honest with you, shock because every time I
read it, Because every time I read, I say shit,
I should have read that, I should have written that. God,

(01:37:11):
I can't do that better. Well, that's all right if
I'm writing for journalists that I'm happy right now. You
really do channel me, and you really do channel the ethos.

Speaker 1 (01:37:17):
Well maybe we're the group think that's the problem, or
maybe we were the out of the out of the
cool kids group think, and maybe we were onto something.
Who knows, there's not.

Speaker 2 (01:37:25):
There's not enough people who write and think like you do.
I appreciate it. I love your stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:37:29):
Well, I appreciate you saying that. All right, brother, I'll
see you soon.

Speaker 2 (01:37:32):
Yeah, that's what I say all about you.

Speaker 1 (01:37:34):
You're a hell of a writer Michigan. Thank you for
saying that. I think you know there's there's only one
state to visit for the next next fifteen months. Is
I think it's his. It's his diverse, and there's a
million stories to write it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:50):
Just me up. I'll take them for a beer. It
is the place to come to cover American politics.

Speaker 1 (01:37:55):
I agree. Thanks Ron Good to see if every buddy
good Sea Bill. So, if any of you young journalists
are out there and you want to know where's where
to go, convince your editor or convince an underwriter to

(01:38:15):
help pay for your time to deep dive around Michigan
into I think Michigan is, Like I said, I think
it's the answer key in twenty twenty six into trying
to figure out what happened and where is the country headed?
Like totally. I'm going to get to some ass chuck
here in a minute, but I promise you a little
NAT's rant. Look, here's all I'm asking. This was a
humiliation this weekend with the Brewers right the post trade deadline.

(01:38:40):
I just to humiliate. Now. The Brewers are a great team,
there's no doubt about it. But I think about sort
of the structure, the ownership structure of the Brewers, the
financial resources of the Brewers, and I think, hmm, boy,
this is a smaller market than Washington. I think these
are owners that have less wealth than our owners here
and then and look what they're able to do, and
look at how smart their able to be. And they

(01:39:01):
don't sign every big star. They do trade away some
of their stars sometimes, but they're always trying to be competitive,
and they're always competitive. It was the Gnats that knocked
the Brewers out. It was the Wan Soto hit and
the seventh inning that went under and of the legs
of their right fielder when the wild card was a
one game playoff, and the Gnats go from there win
the whole thing. But you know what the Brewers have

(01:39:22):
done since twenty nineteen, they contend every year. You know
what the Gnats don't do contend. And here's the thing,
this team is directionless. You get humiliated like this, this
interim manager. So Apple had the game on Friday, and
you don't realize, right, this is a great lesson in
here when you got to get out of your own
information bubbles. And all of the Gnats commentary I hear

(01:39:44):
are from pro Nats people, Right. I watch all the
Mass and stuff, and you watch that broadcast and you
know they're lightly critical, but it's always like, oh, they're
giving a good effort, and you know it's got to
be right. They work for the team, right, the team
essentially kind of work for the team. They work for
Mass and which essentially were for the team. Right. You
know it's not a These aren't journalists, and they don't
pretend they're journalists, you know, on this front. But the

(01:40:07):
Apple broadcast on Friday was like just neutral arbiters, and
they were just it was the brutal truth, and they
showed just how poor this franchise been, how terrible their
draft picks have been, how terrible the player development has been.
And they were you know, they were they were they
were trying to be gentle and how they were presenting
this data. But it was it was just and it

(01:40:29):
just it just it's just an evisceration, right, whether it's Rizzo,
whether it's Learner, either way, it's terrible, okay, and the
current leadership's got to go. But here's the one thing
they learned. They said, the inner manager maygo. Cairo seems
like a great guy. And I was a big Davy
Martinez fan. Don't get me wrong. I don't think this
is a David Martinez fault. I think this comes from

(01:40:51):
the top. But you know, if Martinez lost the clubhouse,
which apparently he did when he started attacking the players,
it's not good. If Cairo's coming in there and saying
he talks to Davy every day to figure out how
to do this, which is what he said in the
Apple interview. They need a new philosophy. They need something.
But more importantly, they just I just got my renewal

(01:41:12):
for my season tickets, and I want an explanation. What's
the direction of this team? You know, they're bragging about
all these little new benefits that they're going to claim
they have. What's the direction? You know, the benefit I want?
I want to be able to buy playoff tickets. That's
the benefit I want. I want to contend. I want
to know that these owners care about the fans. And

(01:41:32):
I go back these major league owners, whether they're baseball, football, NBA,
or NHL, your custodians for a fan base. Your team
has zero value if your fans don't give a shit
about your team. And if you build a team and
fans care, it gives you more value. It makes you money.
That's how sports ownership works. Trying to profit and not

(01:41:54):
give a shit about the fans is how you have
an empty stadium on one of the most beautiful August
days in the history of my I'm here in Washington
and nobody was at that game because who wanted to
watch this ball club? It's leaderless that has a young
team that has terrible mentors right now that clearly aren't

(01:42:14):
figuring out how to motivate them. They have all the
talent in the world, and they've got terrible leadership right now.
It's a listless somebody, will you talk to the fans.
I'm begging you to the owners, what is the direction?
Where are you going? If you're doing a hard rebuild
over the next three years. Then rip the fricking band
aid off and admit it to the fans. But at least,

(01:42:39):
just what are you doing. You can't just sit here
in limbo. It's bad for your business to be doing
it this way, and you're taking goodwill that ten years
of fifteen years of goodwill, and you're flushing it down
the toilet over this last five years. So please, will

(01:43:02):
you explain yourself, tell us where this is headed. This
this is not working, this is you know, I you know,
baseball matters to me a lot, and I you know,
I care, probably more than I should, but it's an
important distraction to me. Our political climate freaking sucks. I

(01:43:25):
wish you could help us out. You were a great
distraction for a while, but you know, it sucks when
the thing that we're trying to take a break from
reality is as incompetent as the reality we have to cover.
So come on, will you absolutely explain yourself, take questions

(01:43:48):
from real reporters, don't just do some sort of but
I'll take a visit to the booth, I'll take a
Bob Carpenter interview. Explain yourself. I'd prefer if you actually
showed up. I mean, whatever, you think of Jerry Jones,
the man shows up and takes questions, by the way,
you know, so take a page. Come on, mister Lerner,

(01:44:13):
explain yourself. Explain the direction of this team. Season ticket
holders are shareholders. We deserve some answers here. Maybe you
don't give a damn if we just walk away, but
pretend like you care, because we care. It looks like
the fans care a hell of a lot more than
the ownership does. Show au shit care, do something, all right?

(01:44:36):
Let me take a few questions, and I felt good.
But that's the thing. It's so frustrating when something that's
supposed to be fun it's just fricking incompetently run all right,
ask chuck uh. First question comes from Maggie, and she writes,
my name is Maggie and I'm a recent college grad.

(01:44:57):
I'm currently living at home with my parents as I
search for a job. I feel like the administration has
really hurt the opportunities available for new graduates, and I'm
seeing this among friends from various fields. Specifically, I'm a
Harvard College grad, and many of us non finance, non
consulting grads used to be hired by the government. Humanitarian
sector or research institutions. Do you have any advice for
new graduates or people generally looking for jobs in this economy?

(01:45:19):
Do you have any thoughts on where opportunities many still
exist or even are growing. Thanks for your time. I'm
new to the show, but I'm really enjoying it. I
appreciate the question. And I have a Margaret, Maggie. I
don't want to assume you're a Margaret, but I'm going
to assume I have a Margaret. She goes by Marge
and she's going to be a college graduate in a year,

(01:45:40):
and she had a whole bunch of internship opportunities that
all went away I do to government cuts. She's in
a field that is where government funding is a lion's
share of where the work comes from. It's marine science, right.
Most of the good research jobs are Noah. You know.
Noah's like her north star of where you know, and

(01:46:03):
Noah is something that for some reason, you know, again,
they want to cut science because more data is bad anyway.
So you know, I've been encouraging her. If you're in
if you're looking for the public sector, I think you
have to not look at the federal government. And I've
been encouraging my daughter to be looking at state and

(01:46:23):
local because there's still some state and local opportunities out
there in certain public sector fields. Right, So I wouldn't
shy away from state local. Although the federal government starvation
of some of these some of this money that was
got the states, you're going to start. States are going
to go through the next couple of legislative sessions. The

(01:46:45):
next time state legislators get together for fiscal years twenty
six and twenty seven, they're going to have a lot
less federal government money to help them balance their budgets.
So I do think you may see some cuts there
on that front. Look, I've been I'm bullish on journalism
for people in their twenties, but only from the entrepreneurial
aspect of things. So that's another piece of advice I

(01:47:07):
give you. Know, I think for a long time, going
to the big enterprises, whether it was big media company,
big consulting firm, big finance firm, the government, those were
those were the great destinations to go to. I think
right now we're in a period where, look, all those
institutions are being in some cases blown up or rehabbed

(01:47:29):
in any case, in some ways you kind of want
to not be there in this moment. Right, they're contracting, right,
it's no fund to work at a place that's contracting.
So while you're young, you're a little more nimble your response,
your financials responsibility should be a little smaller than it
will be once you's you know, the older you get,

(01:47:51):
the bigger your nutgets that you have to cover. And
so I would not be afraid of more small start
up opportunities working on that front. You know, I say
this on the journalism front, but I believe it in
other fields too, that you know, getting involved in a
small business, getting involved in a startup, getting involved in

(01:48:12):
a passion project of some sort maybe the better. And
then of course there's grad school. You know, when an
economy gets tough, get go get another degree. But don't
just get a degree to get a degree, Get a
get a specialty, right, get an expertise in something. There's
always going to be space for experts. And you know,
like I said, in marine science, the good news is

(01:48:32):
a lot of private companies now are going to be
hiring meteorologists, especially if the government isn't going to be
doing things, and so there is going to you know,
there is some repetitive things that private the private sector
is going to have to have that actually may create
opportunity too. So I know it's not a great answer,
but I will say this, I totally understand where you're
coming from. I'm living it now and with my daughter

(01:48:56):
and her compatriots. You guys are obviously essentially involved than
the same sort of in the same job market pretty soon.
And the other thing is, don't be afraid to move
around the country right now. You know that is an
asset you have that somebody in their forties and fifties doesn't,
which should at least give you more potential opportunities are

(01:49:19):
out there. But I understand the concern, but that's where
my head would be at. And like I said, don't
be afraid of a startup. Don't be afraid of this
is I sort of you know, eventually these big institutions
are going to have to hire again. But you know,
if you go get some it's amazing the experiences you
gain working at a startup. Next question comes from Jake

(01:49:40):
from Denver, Colorado. Longtime listener, first time asker. Thanks Jake.
I love the Constitutional Convention episode with Larry Lessig, but
most of the potential amendments discussed were based in realities
of state ratification likelihood. If you were made convention dictatoring
to force through five amendments of your choosing, what would
you add to the Constitution unconstrained by political compromise. You
can assume a billion dollars of annual federal funding for

(01:50:02):
the nationals rosters. I appreciate that has already been taken
care of. No need to burn one of your five
amendments on that. Wow, five amendments. Well, look, I think
the I think i'd immediately deal with age maximums. I
would advocate a population sort of here's what we need.

(01:50:28):
We need percentages to help us decide. You know that
we've come up with right now it should be I
think the House of Representatives would be one representative perform
on a thousand, But you wouldn't want to put that
number in there like that. It would be sort of
if one perform a thousand is point zero zero one
percent of the population, that we should have one representative

(01:50:50):
per point zero zero one percent of the population. I'd
put that in there. I'd put the actual number in
there so that way, the House of Representatives, it was
constantly mandated that it had to stay the people's house, right.
I think that's a big problem. So that would be
one you'd probably if you if you, I would, I
would create sort of population tiers. I would take the

(01:51:13):
idea from my friend at the George Washington Library, where
I would sort of create four tiers where you know,
if you have let's say, you know ten percent of
you know, six percent of the population, five percent of

(01:51:34):
the population north, you get four. Your senators you know
somewhere between three and five percent, you get three, et cetera. Like,
create a little bit of that to make the Senate
more small, d democratic, right, more representative, still give still
give small states the upper hand there, and then you
can keep the electoral college right. So that's so that's
three amendments there. I definitely would try to come up

(01:51:55):
with a campaign finance reform method. I would be stand
by your advertisement where you had to say who you know?
Anybody that gave you money? You know, I'm for you
want to do unlimited donations, Fine, but everybody that gave
you more than fifty thousand dollars, they'd you have to
you have to say their name every time you do
the ad, which means everybody would get forty nine hundred

(01:52:18):
ninety nine dollars right, instant disclosure immediate that you'd see
at things like that. So that's four. And my fifth
amendment would probably be I'd add two states. I'd add
the District of Columbia. You know, I'd come up with
a way that would force, right, the states would be
at it, but that would sort of force that you know,

(01:52:39):
once you hit a certain threshold as a territory of
residents of US citizens living there, that it triggers a
vote for statehood in Congress. Right, So essentially, you know,
so I would have an amendment that wouldn't mandate a
state for the District of Columbia, but that would sort
of create the conditions, and I would have a crib

(01:53:00):
in state. I've always thought that the Virgin Islands in
Puerto Rico together ought to you know, I know that
it would you know, look, we made the Hawaiian Islands
one state. I would take our Caribbean Islands and all
those US islands and I'd advocate for them to be
to get statehood together in some form. So there you go.

(01:53:22):
I'd love to ban political parties, but I think that
is a state thing. I don't think there's anything I
could do to sort of get rid of the duopoly.
I do think we need to have equal access. Maybe
I would find a way to get rid of the
right of party primary so that all everybody had to vote,
you know, everybody had to be able to vote every
election that was held, Okay, that it was always open

(01:53:43):
to every voter, and force parties to do it. You know,
if they wanted to come up with a nomination process
on their own, they could do that, but they'd have
to pay for their private organizations. But but you have
a sort of when this, when the government pays for
an election, every single registered voters should have access to
that election period. And so I might mandate that too,

(01:54:05):
because that also if you did that, I think you
might be able to blow up a partisan primary. Part Thanks,
all right, I'm gonna take one more question. I went
that was a fun one. I even you don't know
this yere because there's gonna be an edit. But I
did a pause to get my math correct on the
on what percentage I would need to sort of level
out so that you could make it a constitutional amendment

(01:54:27):
on that? All right, last question comes this comes from Texas. Potentially,
let's see here. It comes from Greg and he writes this,
I've really enjoyed the show since you left NBC. I
like you have accepted that every ten year jerrymandering exercise
that both parties go through in their states. However, what
Trump and Texas Republicans are doing to maintain federal power

(01:54:48):
is one of its most is one of the most
bold undemocratic exercises I've ever seen. To hear Democrats are considering.
Reciprocating in California is even more disturbing, where the national
leaders speaking up or populist outrage calling out what is
an extremely undemocratic tactic by both parties to maintain or
achieve your power. Ps. How about California Texas settle who's
better with a game between the Trojans and Longhorns. The

(01:55:08):
Trojans beating the Longhorns would get under Texas to skin
more and more than politics. Greg, I love that last
idea altogether. You're right, I don't understand where the outrage is.
And I've been very concerned that the second an election
of Trump, the second term of Trump, was going to
change the nature of the leaders and the Democratic Party
of going to the mindset if you can't beat them
to join them, Well, we can't win fair and square,

(01:55:31):
so we're going to try to come up with ways
to cheat to this. I do not understand this collective
embracing of yeah, all elections should be unfair. What is
wrong with us? What is wrong with us? This is
insane and the idea that you have and I look,

(01:55:53):
I understand you got to the mindset of fight fire
with fire, And I'm watching all these democratic governors ration
analyze their way to say, well, they're going to be undemocratic,
so are we okay? So if they're undemocratic and you're
behaving undemocratic, don't be surprised if the whole if the
country decides, well maybe we should have an authoritarian in

(01:56:16):
charge because nobody seems to trust the voters to you know,
everybody wants to to to create their own districts and
control the voters. So, you know, I don't know why
there's not voter anger here. I am very disappointed, and
I have no idea where you know, the partisan leadership
I expect them to behave this way, but it's really
been gross, you know, it is you know, it's just terrible.

(01:56:42):
By the way, there's a substack and I'm going to
dig deeper into it, but that does this sort of
terrific deep dive. Dave Wigel tweeted it. Somebody did a
huge deep dive just sort of on the on one
of these scam packs on the left and just how
embedded inside the Democratic Party was. But essentially, they've raised
two hundred fifty eight million dollars and only one barely
less than two percent of that has actually gone to campaigns.

(01:57:02):
And we've seen these Scampact reportings on the right. But
but but the thing is, this is another part of
the duopoly that's out there. There's a whole bunch of
people that are making money off of your anger, and
then they're spent and then they're doing these undemocratic things
that are just gonna it is. It is going to
set precedents that that you know, we're gonna we're not

(01:57:24):
gonna be able to put the toothpaste back in the
two we're gonna wish we did. And to watch the
Democratic Party, who most of them were drifting towards the
idea that hey, maybe the right call is to take
take the jerrymandering, take the map making out of the
hands of elected officials. Right, that's a you know, it's

(01:57:46):
another one of my constitutional amendments. We got to figure out.
He's had to essentially end that in some form or another,
you know, take not allow the legislatures to set the lines,
but to force bipartisan but to force essentially, you know,
some form of bipartisan commissions or nonpartisan commissions or tripartisan commissions,
or I think what California did wasn't bad, right, And

(01:58:08):
Ohio pass an amendment that the legislature keeps ignoring. Virginia
passed an amendment that there's some of the Democrats wish
that they could ignore. There were all these movements to
get rid of jerrymandering. And I remember standing in line
voting in Virginia and the Virginia Democratic Party was begging
people to vote against the amendment that created the citizen
oversight over their commissions. And you know, when when the

(01:58:32):
fact is neither political party is interested in the democracy,
They're interested in getting power, right, and that is you know,
maybe this is why the founder, the original founders who
feared parties were right, because it becomes the health of
the party becomes paramount than the over the health of
the country. Right The country is sick right now. The

(01:58:53):
Democratic Party and the Republican Party are not fixing the country.
They're exploiting the illnesses. And this is just the latest
episode of that. And you know, I'm not saying that
both parties couldn't become forces for good. Well right now
they're being run by people who care more about preserving

(01:59:13):
power or getting power than they do about fixing the
problem and curing the virus that is circulating in this
country right now. All right, well, that's kind of here's
the good news NFL training camps. Another Green Bay Packer
has made it into the Hall of Fame, Sterling Sharp.
It was fun to sort of tell my son a

(01:59:34):
little bit of the history of Sterling Sharp. It was
the last great receiver, you know, that the Packers had,
and he just met I mean it would it is.
You know, Brett Favre created a lot of I mean
a lot of Antonio Freeman was certainly in Donald h
God Donald Driver. Sorry it was blinking on his name,

(01:59:55):
you know. Brett Favre sort of made them pro bowlers
every once in a while. But Sharp was the best
for he ever had. And if he had had four
more years with him. I don't know. I'd like to
think maybe we don't lose that second Super Bowl at Denver,
maybe we went it with because Sterling Sharp was that good.
I remember watching I remember the University of Miami playing.
I believe he went to South Carolina because I think

(02:00:16):
we played. Back then South Carolina was an independent. They
weren't members of the SEC. Yes, that's how old I am.
And I think South Carolina went ten and won that year.
I think we were the only team to beat them,
and I remember Sterling Sharp was like, that guy's the
best player in the field. And that was the I
think the eighty seven Miami team, which is one of
the greatest Miami football teams ever, went undefeated untied, even

(02:00:39):
though probably the two teams that the team the year
before and the team the year after probably technically slightly better.
But that team wasn't gonna lose, right, But Sharp was.
He was like it was like it was like watching
Andre Johnson in college. I got to see that, or

(02:01:01):
Calvin Johnson when he was at Georgia Tech. You're like,
oh my god, that guy's going to be a star.
Larry Fitzgerald at Pitt you know when you see these
guys when you're you're like, you just know Sharp was
that guy you just knew? So anyway, I got to
end on an upbeat note, right, ranting about the mats,
Frustrated about the country, frustrated about our economy, you know,

(02:01:23):
thank God for the Green Bay packers with that until
I uploaded him

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