August 15, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode, Eli Lake shares his journey into journalism, discussing his early influences, the evolution of media, and the importance of passionate debate in journalism. He reflects on the challenges facing modern journalism, his concerns about the future for his daughter, and his optimism about America's cultural shifts. Lake emphasizes the value of reading and self-education, encouraging listeners to seek out original sources rather than relying on influencers. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Wednesday & Friday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome back to Carol mark Wood Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today, Eli Lake, repressed columnist and the host of
the Breaking History podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi Eli, it's so nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
It's great to be here, Carol, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So I've read you for years and years, and I
don't know your background or how you got into this
thing of ours.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'd love to hear more about that.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Sure, Well, I grew up in Philadelphia. I wrote kind
of always.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Sorry Dallas Cowboys fans, I have to boom whenever we
mentioned Philly, you know, fair enough.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I actually have an uncle who moved to Dallas, and
it was a funny thing in my family. But I guess,
you know, I was always interested in writing. I grew
up my parents, you know, had a lot of kind
of intellectual friends, so there was an emphasis on learning
and and so forth. And at the same time, I
(01:04):
didn't really feel like I had the personality to do
years of grad school like my wife, so I wanted to.
I like learning, but I'm and I like kind of
being a dilettante. So I think journalism is the ultimate
profession for somebody who is a quick study. And but also,
you know, doesn't want to kind of go into years
(01:29):
of their of their twenties, and you know, in the
politics of graduate school, which is kind of almost like
one of the last bastions of feudalism in our society,
and that you know, you're basically kind of an intellectual
slave until you get your tenure track position and there's okay,
you know, anyway going to that. So I sort of
decided that like that wasn't for me. And you know,
(01:54):
I had like a year where like I did all
kinds of jobs, like at one point I was doing
like opposition research, and then I finally got a job
working in Washington for a newsletter that covered the Environmental
Protection Agency, and it was a great I found it.
I really liked it, which is that some people like
(02:14):
deadlines or can handle deadlines. Nobody really likes deadlines.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I need deadlines. If I don't have a deadline, I'm
never I'm never doing.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It me too, So it's like there, so they're very
smart people who kind of wash out in their first
job in journalism because there's an enormous amount of pressure
to just kind of get it on the page and
get it, get it up, and some of us kind
of thrive in that environment. For sure, I've thrived on it,
(02:41):
and it kind of, you know, went from there, and
you know it kind of you know, you sort of
realize that you sort of have a talent for it,
and obviously there's a lot to learn. I feel that
writing is one of those skills that you're it's it's
you're constantly kind of getting better at it. You should
always try to get better at it. So I look
at it like that, and then, like you know, over time,
(03:05):
I guess I kind of got my first break out
of what's known as the trade publications by getting a
job with someone called the New York Sun. Sorry, now
that was before.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
The time the New York Sun. Yeah, I was.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I was one of the OG's from the New York Sign.
But I actually before that, I was at the Forward,
which is the oldest Jewish newspaper in New York. And
that was when Seth Lipsky was still the editor, and
Seth became a mentor, and so I had that job.
And then the workman circle booted Seth Lipsky and he
started the New York Sun. And then I in that
(03:37):
kind of interregnum, I was the State Department correspondent for UPI,
which is an old wire service. It's maybe still around,
but it used to be like the rival of the AP.
So that was an amazing opportunity for me as a
young journalist to travel with the Secretary of State to
go to all these different countries and kind of my
introduction into kind of big time journalism. And then I
(04:00):
started writing for The New Republic and the Weekly Standard
and a little bit for the National Review. And I
was at the New York Sun. So you just sort
of that's a career path, and I guess my next
break after that. I went to the New York Sun
ended its print run and had to lay off a
lot of people. In two thousand and eight, right around
the financial crisis, I went to the Washington Times. I
(04:20):
did very well there under John Solomon, who was the
editor at the time. He was picked up by Tina
Brown's Daily Beast when right when they were acquiring Newsweek.
So I got hired at Daily Beast News. I remember that, yeah,
And that was another kind of big break for me.
And I did that for a while and then Bloomberg
made me a columnist and that was that was a
(04:41):
wonderful gig and then that you know, eventually, you know,
we parted ways and I started a podcast originally called
The re Education and now it's called Breaking History. And
once Barry Wise started the Free Press, I wasn't in
the first wave of hires, but I was writing for
it a lot. And then I started at the Free
Press January twenty twenty four, and I had to say,
(05:05):
it's it's it reminds me a lot of being you know,
at the Young Daily Beast Daily Beasts not great now,
but yeah, when I was there, it was a really
exciting place. You know, it was like, right, there's a
lot of energy, and that's that's kind of like what
the free press feels like. So it's nice to have
to be part of like a growing, thriving publication.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
If the free press is killing it, I mean, I
don't know any publication that's, you know, anything that's come
out in the last you know, decade that's doing anything
near what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
It's it's amazing to.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
In some ways it's like easy for us, right, I mean,
because the big the big outlets which have more resources,
still won't like touch certain stories, like you think they'd
learn the lesson, you know, so are like we have.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
The New York Post of course.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Well no, no, the New York Post. I'm saying, like
the Time in the Washington Post, it's like they still
are kind of giving you the same slanted I mean,
I don't know that Time story on like BB trying
to prolong the war.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I mean I've seen that story in exactly Israeli outlets,
Like that is not a news story. It's just they
thought it was new and they repackaged it for.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Cal and like that's just one example. But I'm saying,
is that, Okay, fine, I expect that in the Nation
or drop Site or already in or something like that.
Those are those are ideological outlets. The Times, though it's
still kind of pretending to be like all the news
that's fit to print, right, you know, and it's not
that's a that's an opinion piece kind of masquerading as
(06:41):
front page. Is Also we have a I think there's
a built an advantage for I don't want to say alternative,
but like just normy publications.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Normally Normany is a great word for it.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, Like the other podcast is called normally and that's
the that's the idea that Mary News, you know, with
Mary Katherine Ham.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
That's wow. I love I love that podcast and I
loved you two together. Yeah, Mary, Catherine is so great, So.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Great Twitter.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You refer to yourself as a dilettante, but I don't
see you like that at all. I see you as
a very serious foreign policy guy who is not just
dabbling and not just learning topics overnight. And you know
the way we all become experts on X on any
any new topic, like you seem you seem kind of
the real thing.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Well, thank you. When I say dilettant, what I mean
is I have a lot of interests that I want
to write, and you know, I've been doing it for
a long time now. So the I compared to somebody
who I don't know studied at Princeton University Turkish and
Arabic and I don't I can't compare to that to
(07:51):
writing about the Middle East, but I know a lot
of I don't even rate that anyway. So that's kind
of what I meant in that respect. But dileton is
not a bad thing. It means you're no, It's not
it's you're curious, it's it's I don't want you shouldn't
be an irresponsible dilaton. You shouldn't like allow chat ept
to be your researcher. You should read books. That's very important,
(08:11):
reading books like as opposed to But so I do that.
But at the same time, my my role models for
people like Christopher Hitchens or the kind of essaysts intellectual journalists.
That's what I aspire in some ways to be. And
that's kind of how I look at what I'm trying
to do. And nobody would say there's a difference between
reading I don't know, like there's a difference between reading
(08:35):
Robert Conquest, who kind of wrote the definitive history of
the Soviet Union before the collapse the SVIT versus somebody
who's going to write like really like a journalist is
going to write really well about it. There's different things
like historians. I have too much respect for what good
historians do. It's a lot of very bad historians right now.
But I of.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Course historians, well there are I'm like, sadly like academic
historians like I'm But so that's that's kind of what
I mean by it.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
But thank you for saying that. I do try to.
I mean, like, you know, first of all, you've been writing.
If you write about this stuff for a long time,
you really kind of get to know it. It does help.
I have people out of these places I've even you know,
I used to say up into all the access of
evil countries as a throwback reference.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
Now but I have Yeah, we're going to take a
quick break and be right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
So any other paths that you would have chosen, Like,
were you always going to be a writer?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Was there a plan B in case that didn't work out?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
I don't know if there was a plan B. I
love music and I played piano, and I've played music
since I was six, maybe before then. My parents want
a piano in our house, and it was, you know great,
So in that respect, I played. You know, if I
would have like stuck with it, I could see myself
as being a musician. And I think about that now
(09:58):
because I love making AI songs on studio and it's
like one of my favorite activities. So in my podcast,
I every every podcast has at least one original AI song. Wow,
that's about that's cool topic. Yeah, So I could see
myself of maybe being a musician. The problem is that
it's such a risky kind of proposition.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
That's less of a plan B than it is like
a subplan A.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
But yeah, I mean, but I love I love music.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Plan b's are usually like I would be an accountant.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Right, sure something. At one point I really wanted me
to go to law school, and I didn't do that. Yeah,
in part, like I just didn't do it because I
just know I don't have the kind of personality. There's
a certain kind of personality that you have to have. Yeah,
And I again, I have friends who are lawyers. I
respect what lawyers do. I'm not gonna get lawyer jokes
(10:52):
for me. I like being a journalist because we get
to like kind of criticize at least our generation. I
should say, the journalists that have come up in recent years,
not all of them, but a lot of them are
not in my view, they're like kind of they're not
really journalists. How do I put it? Like the journalistic
instinct is is that if there's a if there's an
(11:13):
interest group or a pressure group that says you shouldn't
talk about X, the journalists can talk about it, like, well,
let's find out why not not to criticize other journalists
to talk about X because of the pressure group and
by the way, the entire trans debate. That can sort
of sum it up, right, There were a series of
pieces that were done basically saying, look at these people,
(11:35):
who are you know, questioning youth, gentermdicine or whatever. I'm like, yeah,
that's our freaking job, and or like there. I don't know,
this is now kind of an old thing, but like
a few I don't know, six seven, six years ago,
when the social media companies were completely out of control,
there was like a unit of NBC News that would
just like report on average citizens, right and say like,
(11:57):
why haven't you banned this account? And that's not journals
and that's snitching. So for me, like I.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Just the NBC News, I could think of like New
York Times articles about average citizens who might have done
something wrong in their lives.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I remember a girl who used the N word.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
With an A at the end to you know, to
be exuberant, and the New York Times wrote a whole
piece about her, including you know, a guy who held
onto that recording to specifically ruin her life. She was
a nobody, I don't even know her name. She lost
her college acceptance and you know, just it.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Was normal or The Washington posted that piece about these
two people who went to a party and they had.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
A kind of Halloween party, right Halloween.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Party with an inappropriate costume, and then like seven years
later they're like, you know, they were going to ruin
your life. And to me, that's like, Okay, that's right,
that's stossy journalism. That's like, that's like yeah, communist block journal.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
It get into line journalism exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
So I'm not interested in that. And I understand because
that was I mean, I think we're hopefully turning a corner.
I understand why journalism has a bad reputation among Americans
because they're associated with that kind of thing. But for me,
the spirit of journalism is robust, passionate debate. Newsrooms should
be places where, you know, occasionally people will like throw
(13:19):
things at each other and scream at the top of
their ones at a story meeting because they completely disagree
with him. That to me is great. I like that, yeah,
And that's why you know, I don't have a to
me like, right now, I'm concerned, as I think you
might be, about the turn on the right to embrace
the anti Israel anti let's call it anti Semitism in
(13:42):
some cases of the left, like that's that kind of
horseshoe is disturbing to me. But I also want to
always kind of keep in mind, like I don't think
just because I happen to be pro Israel that there
shouldn't be certain topics that are off limits. Like yeah, sure,
let's let's float in to you how much food was
allowed into Gaza during various points of the war. That's fine.
(14:05):
Like I'm sure the israeiling, I'm sure the ideaf makes mistakes.
I'm sure there have been.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, I mean sure, I would say I criticize Israel
from the other side, like.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Why are sometimes you know, I don't know, I just
don't want to see like kind of our side of it,
so to speak, adopting the same kind of things, and
like this is like constantly, of.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Course you should question, of course, but it becomes like,
you know, I mean, my audience knows that I record
these foreign advance but we're recording this during the time
where Masad is allegedly, you know, bribing everyone in the country,
and Donald Trump is probably suspect also because of the
whole Epstein thing.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And it's like there is literally zero evidence for this.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Let's talk about this. I'm with you there, yeah, but
but let's let's be totally let's put all of our
cards on the table here.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
When Pam Bondi comes into office as the Attorney General
and says, the first thing we're going to do is
release I have the Epstein right here. Yeah, Okay, I'm sorry,
stop playing with my emotions. Okay. And second of all,
I am not a hater of Cash Betel by any stretch.
I think he did Yeoman's work on Russiagate. I think
some of his post Reussigate media stuff. I don't agree
(15:22):
with it. Maybe it's like hyperbolic, over the top, but like,
I'm not here to like crap on Cash Ptel. But
Cash Hotel is somebody who, when he was out of
government was like very much believing that there was a
cover up on Epstein, and he has to do more
than just do a one eighty Plaine. I went in
and I agreed with you. Yes, I finally got the
(15:42):
keys to the kingdom and I saw everything was wrong.
It turns out I was wrong, and that just goes
to show you, and so I apologize for being wrong.
I went ahead over my skis and let me walk
you through and really meet these people, because I think
Cash Hotel and Dan Bongino have a lot of credibility
with magnation, and there's an opportunity now to really do it,
(16:05):
Like go on your show, Go on, Megan Kelly, I
don't know, go on one of these shows and give them
two hours, right, and walk us through what you thought
going in and what you ended up learning. Because when
there's a vacuum like this, of course people are going
to expect the worst and suspect the worst and they
and that's that's my criticism.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
You're fully right, yeah, but of course it's the Masad
part that I find, like you know.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Anything to do with it?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You know, obviously Massad. I don't think Massad is doing
blackmail operations against Americans, which is what the Jeffrey Epstein
against Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
It's not even just Americans.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
It would have to be Donald like it would have
to be our president, right.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
But the Masad is an intelligence organization, a very lethal
and effective intelligence organization has juststrated in the Twelve Day
War and before with pager operations and so forth. They're
in the skullduggery business. What I want to say here
is I don't think that they're doing this against like
American politicians or American celebrities, And there is no evidence
(17:16):
to suggest at this point, you know, other than like
kind of throwaway comment that was made by a journalists
like I recently went through like reading like how did
this thing start? But on the other hand, if you
just wanted to look at well, does do intelligence organizations?
Does the Masad conduct what are known as honey traps?
(17:38):
Of course they do?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Sure, Sure.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Do they engage in blackmail? Of course they do. That's
probably one of the ways they were able to penetrate Iran.
I mean, it's like and as somebody who's written a
lot about the Masad over the years, and you know
is read a lot of books and talk to x
Masad people and a couple current Masade people over the
you know, as a journalist, I don't have like you know,
if you if you just want to sort of say
(18:02):
Massa's an intelligence agency and as an intelligence agency, it's
it's up to its neck and a bunch of skullduggery.
I agree, But that's not what you know, what I'm saying,
that doesn't mean that's not that's not what they're saying.
They're kind of going much further. Yeah, and there are
lots of unanswered questions about Jeffrey Epstein that I still
have lots of skepticism about. I still am like not
(18:26):
satisfied that he was that the guards just happened to
not catch him killing himself in the cell. I also
have come to really want to love a good financial
reporter to explain to me this hedge fund with only
one client, what the hell is that he's got gazillions
of dollars that he's supposedly managing. He has no experience
(18:46):
really as a financial manager. Who are his clients? How
did this happen? We're talking about a lot of money,
So it might be and I'm just throwing this out
as a possibility that there is some perhaps maybe not
even masade. It might be CIA. Might be. This might
have been a sort of intelligence agency slush fund. This
happened before what I want to try to do. And
I did an episode of my podcast Breaking History on
(19:10):
it was about JFK and his assassination, and I did
not come up by saying I said, I don't think
I think that Lee rvy Oswald did it. And he
was alone assassin, which is boring at this point, But
what I said is I kind of understand why so
many Americans didn't believe it then and don't believe it now.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, they've been lied to about other things too.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Exactly so. And so when you have Bongino, Bondie and
Patel doing a one to eighty and not explaining why, well, like, okay,
I don't believe it. I don't think there's much evidence
of this, you know, Epstein Masad stuff. But I also
kind of understand, like, wait a second, even these people
(19:52):
are not being straight with us.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, all right, switching gears, let's switch gears. What do
you worry about?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
That's a great question. I have a four year old daughter,
so of course I worry about the future. Were all
kinds of reasons for her, little things like you know,
she's at the age now when we are walking in
the city she can break away from me when we're
across the street. That makes me crazy. So that's like
an immediate thing. But in the more house for sense,
like I want her to have the kinds of things
(20:20):
that I guess I took for granted in my life,
Like I want her to be able to go to
college without being indoctrinated, without being intimidated because she's Jewish.
I don't want her to, Like, I don't want her
to I wanted to be able to, like have romantic
relationships when she's of age without it being fraught with
(20:40):
all this you know, political stuff, Like I just very
very like, I don't want her to kind of come
into a culture where all the things that I took
for granted are not available for her, including maybe you
could say, are the prosperity by the luck that I
was born when I was born and was able to
have this kind of comfort and so forth. So that
that's something I say, I worry about. But on the
(21:03):
other hand, I tend to be an optimist. I'm especially
an optimist about America. I'm also an optimist in Israel.
So I kind of feel like we're going to get
it right. And I see all kinds of reasons to
think we are getting it right.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So it's a very optimistic moment. Actually, I feel like
there's a lot of doom and gloom and you know,
black pilling, as the kids say, But it's actually a
very very optimistic, forward looking moment right now.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Absolutely, I mean, listen, I think that, you know, there
are there are elements of the Trump administration's policies on
higher education that I don't agree with, in something I
really applaud, but I also think that like it's I
think we're also culturally in a moment where like that
(21:54):
there's an understanding in these elite schools. Hey, this isn't
really sustainable.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, things are changing.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
The battle is not over. It's like the war's not
over yet. But there's been major things that have you know,
we went from in the course of like four years
maybe where you had people at the commanding heights of
our culture screaming DEI and intersectionalism and all this stuff
is not a thing, like you know what I mean,
(22:21):
Like it's not a thing to like a real recognition
and the Supreme Court decision like that's.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Big, huge stuff.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
And again, so I have again, I have a lot
of faith in our system, and I think that the
Trump election is unjostling a lot of things. Some of
it will not be for good. Some I think a
lot of it will be for good. But it's a
We're in a change and it's good. We needed to change.
Like I was, I was depressed in twenty twenty and
twenty twenty mine, Yeah about like we're just stagnant. And
(22:52):
I don't feel like we're stagnant it's much anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I was negative on America for the first time in
my life, Like, I was pessimistic for the very first
time in my life life on America. During that time,
I thought we were heading in such a bad direction,
and I was scary.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
But what is it? It doesn't it? I mean that
that statistic that came out that ninety three percent of
Republicans love their country and like thirty six percent of
Democrats do.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It's a worrying number.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah, in a way, it's wearing, but it's also like wow,
Like what is it? You know, Like that's a wake
up call, Like you can't you can't get a major
natural party if most of the people who identify.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
With hate the country.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, you kind of have to, like at.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
A certain point sort of part of the bargain.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
The argument can't be yeah America sucks, it's got to
be Yeah, America is great, and here's how to make
it better.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. What advice would you
give your sixteen year old self.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Well, the first thing I guess I would say is
you have ADHD and it has been not been te
coost yet. That explains why you're constantly like reading like
seven books at the same time. It's fine, you know
you'll but like, that's the first thing I would say.
There's nothing wrong with you, it's like you know. But
the second thing I just I would say is believe
in your own talent like you have. You have the
(24:11):
ability to write for a living, like you should. You
should do that because by sixteen, I think I knew
I wanted to do it. Just stick with it, like
because I wasn't a good writer at age sixteen. The
very few people are sure and don't don't be demoralized
about it. So I don't know if that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, definitely to stick with it and don't be demoralized
is good advice for that age. I loved this conversation.
You are just somebody. I love hearing from you.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And I always love reading.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
You leave us here with your best tip for my
listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I think the best tip would be fine time in
your week to read or listen to books. If you
don't like reading books, if you can't find that stillness,
take a walk and put on an audiobook to learn
and dive into things that you're passionate about. So, in
(25:11):
my view, like don't let you know it's it's great
to listen to podcasts. It's great to like, I understand
that we're living in the era of influencers, and that's fine.
Maybe I'm sort of an influencer. I don't know, and
you're certainly an influencer.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You influenced me.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah, But what I mean to say is there's a
whole world out there and you can become like you
don't have to depend on these other people filtering stuff
go out Like I find like I have a mixed
I'm not a doomer about artificial intelligence, and I'm also
not like I don't think it's the greatest thing in
the world. But one of the things that I do
(25:46):
that helps me with you know, when I do these
deep dives for bringing history, I just ask the chat
gipt or I use Brock a lot. Now, what are
the three best books on X? And if you just
do that and then you know they're not always going
to be right, but like you can get a little
summary in the answer and if it looks like it's
(26:06):
pretty good, that's what That's what I would say. Read
books or listen to books like that's that advice.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yes, absolutely you can, you know, go to the source material.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Don't just rely on influencer. He's Eli Lake.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Read him at free Press, Listen to the Breaking History
podcast anywhere you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Thank you so much, Eli for coming on.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Thank you Carol
Welcome back to Carol mark Wood Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today, Eli Lake, repressed columnist and the host of
the Breaking History podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi Eli, it's so nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
It's great to be here, Carol, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So I've read you for years and years, and I
don't know your background or how you got into this
thing of ours.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'd love to hear more about that.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Sure, Well, I grew up in Philadelphia. I wrote kind
of always.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Sorry Dallas Cowboys fans, I have to boom whenever we
mentioned Philly, you know, fair enough.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I actually have an uncle who moved to Dallas, and
it was a funny thing in my family. But I guess,
you know, I was always interested in writing. I grew
up my parents, you know, had a lot of kind
of intellectual friends, so there was an emphasis on learning
and and so forth. And at the same time, I
(01:04):
didn't really feel like I had the personality to do
years of grad school like my wife, so I wanted to.
I like learning, but I'm and I like kind of
being a dilettante. So I think journalism is the ultimate
profession for somebody who is a quick study. And but also,
you know, doesn't want to kind of go into years
(01:29):
of their of their twenties, and you know, in the
politics of graduate school, which is kind of almost like
one of the last bastions of feudalism in our society,
and that you know, you're basically kind of an intellectual
slave until you get your tenure track position and there's okay,
you know, anyway going to that. So I sort of
decided that like that wasn't for me. And you know,
(01:54):
I had like a year where like I did all
kinds of jobs, like at one point I was doing
like opposition research, and then I finally got a job
working in Washington for a newsletter that covered the Environmental
Protection Agency, and it was a great I found it.
I really liked it, which is that some people like
(02:14):
deadlines or can handle deadlines. Nobody really likes deadlines.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I need deadlines. If I don't have a deadline, I'm
never I'm never doing.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It me too, So it's like there, so they're very
smart people who kind of wash out in their first
job in journalism because there's an enormous amount of pressure
to just kind of get it on the page and
get it, get it up, and some of us kind
of thrive in that environment. For sure, I've thrived on it,
(02:41):
and it kind of, you know, went from there, and
you know it kind of you know, you sort of
realize that you sort of have a talent for it,
and obviously there's a lot to learn. I feel that
writing is one of those skills that you're it's it's
you're constantly kind of getting better at it. You should
always try to get better at it. So I look
at it like that, and then, like you know, over time,
(03:05):
I guess I kind of got my first break out
of what's known as the trade publications by getting a
job with someone called the New York Sun. Sorry, now
that was before.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
The time the New York Sun. Yeah, I was.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I was one of the OG's from the New York Sign.
But I actually before that, I was at the Forward,
which is the oldest Jewish newspaper in New York. And
that was when Seth Lipsky was still the editor, and
Seth became a mentor, and so I had that job.
And then the workman circle booted Seth Lipsky and he
started the New York Sun. And then I in that
(03:37):
kind of interregnum, I was the State Department correspondent for UPI,
which is an old wire service. It's maybe still around,
but it used to be like the rival of the AP.
So that was an amazing opportunity for me as a
young journalist to travel with the Secretary of State to
go to all these different countries and kind of my
introduction into kind of big time journalism. And then I
(04:00):
started writing for The New Republic and the Weekly Standard
and a little bit for the National Review. And I
was at the New York Sun. So you just sort
of that's a career path, and I guess my next
break after that. I went to the New York Sun
ended its print run and had to lay off a
lot of people. In two thousand and eight, right around
the financial crisis, I went to the Washington Times. I
(04:20):
did very well there under John Solomon, who was the
editor at the time. He was picked up by Tina
Brown's Daily Beast when right when they were acquiring Newsweek.
So I got hired at Daily Beast News. I remember that, yeah,
And that was another kind of big break for me.
And I did that for a while and then Bloomberg
made me a columnist and that was that was a
(04:41):
wonderful gig and then that you know, eventually, you know,
we parted ways and I started a podcast originally called
The re Education and now it's called Breaking History. And
once Barry Wise started the Free Press, I wasn't in
the first wave of hires, but I was writing for
it a lot. And then I started at the Free
Press January twenty twenty four, and I had to say,
(05:05):
it's it's it reminds me a lot of being you know,
at the Young Daily Beast Daily Beasts not great now,
but yeah, when I was there, it was a really
exciting place. You know, it was like, right, there's a
lot of energy, and that's that's kind of like what
the free press feels like. So it's nice to have
to be part of like a growing, thriving publication.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
If the free press is killing it, I mean, I
don't know any publication that's, you know, anything that's come
out in the last you know, decade that's doing anything
near what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
It's it's amazing to.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
In some ways it's like easy for us, right, I mean,
because the big the big outlets which have more resources,
still won't like touch certain stories, like you think they'd
learn the lesson, you know, so are like we have.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
The New York Post of course.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Well no, no, the New York Post. I'm saying, like
the Time in the Washington Post, it's like they still
are kind of giving you the same slanted I mean,
I don't know that Time story on like BB trying
to prolong the war.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I mean I've seen that story in exactly Israeli outlets,
Like that is not a news story. It's just they
thought it was new and they repackaged it for.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Cal and like that's just one example. But I'm saying,
is that, Okay, fine, I expect that in the Nation
or drop Site or already in or something like that.
Those are those are ideological outlets. The Times, though it's
still kind of pretending to be like all the news
that's fit to print, right, you know, and it's not
that's a that's an opinion piece kind of masquerading as
(06:41):
front page. Is Also we have a I think there's
a built an advantage for I don't want to say alternative,
but like just normy publications.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Normally Normany is a great word for it.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, Like the other podcast is called normally and that's
the that's the idea that Mary News, you know, with
Mary Katherine Ham.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
That's wow. I love I love that podcast and I
loved you two together. Yeah, Mary, Catherine is so great, So.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Great Twitter.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You refer to yourself as a dilettante, but I don't
see you like that at all. I see you as
a very serious foreign policy guy who is not just
dabbling and not just learning topics overnight. And you know
the way we all become experts on X on any
any new topic, like you seem you seem kind of
the real thing.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Well, thank you. When I say dilettant, what I mean
is I have a lot of interests that I want
to write, and you know, I've been doing it for
a long time now. So the I compared to somebody
who I don't know studied at Princeton University Turkish and
Arabic and I don't I can't compare to that to
(07:51):
writing about the Middle East, but I know a lot
of I don't even rate that anyway. So that's kind
of what I meant in that respect. But dileton is
not a bad thing. It means you're no, It's not
it's you're curious, it's it's I don't want you shouldn't
be an irresponsible dilaton. You shouldn't like allow chat ept
to be your researcher. You should read books. That's very important,
(08:11):
reading books like as opposed to But so I do that.
But at the same time, my my role models for
people like Christopher Hitchens or the kind of essaysts intellectual journalists.
That's what I aspire in some ways to be. And
that's kind of how I look at what I'm trying
to do. And nobody would say there's a difference between
reading I don't know, like there's a difference between reading
(08:35):
Robert Conquest, who kind of wrote the definitive history of
the Soviet Union before the collapse the SVIT versus somebody
who's going to write like really like a journalist is
going to write really well about it. There's different things
like historians. I have too much respect for what good
historians do. It's a lot of very bad historians right now.
But I of.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Course historians, well there are I'm like, sadly like academic
historians like I'm But so that's that's kind of what
I mean by it.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
But thank you for saying that. I do try to.
I mean, like, you know, first of all, you've been writing.
If you write about this stuff for a long time,
you really kind of get to know it. It does help.
I have people out of these places I've even you know,
I used to say up into all the access of
evil countries as a throwback reference.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
Now but I have Yeah, we're going to take a
quick break and be right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
So any other paths that you would have chosen, Like,
were you always going to be a writer?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Was there a plan B in case that didn't work out?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
I don't know if there was a plan B. I
love music and I played piano, and I've played music
since I was six, maybe before then. My parents want
a piano in our house, and it was, you know great,
So in that respect, I played. You know, if I
would have like stuck with it, I could see myself
as being a musician. And I think about that now
(09:58):
because I love making AI songs on studio and it's
like one of my favorite activities. So in my podcast,
I every every podcast has at least one original AI song. Wow,
that's about that's cool topic. Yeah, So I could see
myself of maybe being a musician. The problem is that
it's such a risky kind of proposition.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
That's less of a plan B than it is like
a subplan A.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
But yeah, I mean, but I love I love music.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Plan b's are usually like I would be an accountant.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Right, sure something. At one point I really wanted me
to go to law school, and I didn't do that. Yeah,
in part, like I just didn't do it because I
just know I don't have the kind of personality. There's
a certain kind of personality that you have to have. Yeah,
And I again, I have friends who are lawyers. I
respect what lawyers do. I'm not gonna get lawyer jokes
(10:52):
for me. I like being a journalist because we get
to like kind of criticize at least our generation. I
should say, the journalists that have come up in recent years,
not all of them, but a lot of them are
not in my view, they're like kind of they're not
really journalists. How do I put it? Like the journalistic
instinct is is that if there's a if there's an
(11:13):
interest group or a pressure group that says you shouldn't
talk about X, the journalists can talk about it, like, well,
let's find out why not not to criticize other journalists
to talk about X because of the pressure group and
by the way, the entire trans debate. That can sort
of sum it up, right, There were a series of
pieces that were done basically saying, look at these people,
(11:35):
who are you know, questioning youth, gentermdicine or whatever. I'm like, yeah,
that's our freaking job, and or like there. I don't know,
this is now kind of an old thing, but like
a few I don't know, six seven, six years ago,
when the social media companies were completely out of control,
there was like a unit of NBC News that would
just like report on average citizens, right and say like,
(11:57):
why haven't you banned this account? And that's not journals
and that's snitching. So for me, like I.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Just the NBC News, I could think of like New
York Times articles about average citizens who might have done
something wrong in their lives.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I remember a girl who used the N word.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
With an A at the end to you know, to
be exuberant, and the New York Times wrote a whole
piece about her, including you know, a guy who held
onto that recording to specifically ruin her life. She was
a nobody, I don't even know her name. She lost
her college acceptance and you know, just it.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Was normal or The Washington posted that piece about these
two people who went to a party and they had.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
A kind of Halloween party, right Halloween.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Party with an inappropriate costume, and then like seven years
later they're like, you know, they were going to ruin
your life. And to me, that's like, Okay, that's right,
that's stossy journalism. That's like, that's like yeah, communist block journal.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
It get into line journalism exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
So I'm not interested in that. And I understand because
that was I mean, I think we're hopefully turning a corner.
I understand why journalism has a bad reputation among Americans
because they're associated with that kind of thing. But for me,
the spirit of journalism is robust, passionate debate. Newsrooms should
be places where, you know, occasionally people will like throw
(13:19):
things at each other and scream at the top of
their ones at a story meeting because they completely disagree
with him. That to me is great. I like that, yeah,
And that's why you know, I don't have a to
me like, right now, I'm concerned, as I think you
might be, about the turn on the right to embrace
the anti Israel anti let's call it anti Semitism in
(13:42):
some cases of the left, like that's that kind of
horseshoe is disturbing to me. But I also want to
always kind of keep in mind, like I don't think
just because I happen to be pro Israel that there
shouldn't be certain topics that are off limits. Like yeah, sure,
let's let's float in to you how much food was
allowed into Gaza during various points of the war. That's fine.
(14:05):
Like I'm sure the israeiling, I'm sure the ideaf makes mistakes.
I'm sure there have been.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, I mean sure, I would say I criticize Israel
from the other side, like.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Why are sometimes you know, I don't know, I just
don't want to see like kind of our side of it,
so to speak, adopting the same kind of things, and
like this is like constantly, of.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Course you should question, of course, but it becomes like,
you know, I mean, my audience knows that I record
these foreign advance but we're recording this during the time
where Masad is allegedly, you know, bribing everyone in the country,
and Donald Trump is probably suspect also because of the
whole Epstein thing.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And it's like there is literally zero evidence for this.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Let's talk about this. I'm with you there, yeah, but
but let's let's be totally let's put all of our
cards on the table here.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
When Pam Bondi comes into office as the Attorney General
and says, the first thing we're going to do is
release I have the Epstein right here. Yeah, Okay, I'm sorry,
stop playing with my emotions. Okay. And second of all,
I am not a hater of Cash Betel by any stretch.
I think he did Yeoman's work on Russiagate. I think
some of his post Reussigate media stuff. I don't agree
(15:22):
with it. Maybe it's like hyperbolic, over the top, but like,
I'm not here to like crap on Cash Ptel. But
Cash Hotel is somebody who, when he was out of
government was like very much believing that there was a
cover up on Epstein, and he has to do more
than just do a one eighty Plaine. I went in
and I agreed with you. Yes, I finally got the
(15:42):
keys to the kingdom and I saw everything was wrong.
It turns out I was wrong, and that just goes
to show you, and so I apologize for being wrong.
I went ahead over my skis and let me walk
you through and really meet these people, because I think
Cash Hotel and Dan Bongino have a lot of credibility
with magnation, and there's an opportunity now to really do it,
(16:05):
Like go on your show, Go on, Megan Kelly, I
don't know, go on one of these shows and give them
two hours, right, and walk us through what you thought
going in and what you ended up learning. Because when
there's a vacuum like this, of course people are going
to expect the worst and suspect the worst and they
and that's that's my criticism.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
You're fully right, yeah, but of course it's the Masad
part that I find, like you know.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Anything to do with it?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You know, obviously Massad. I don't think Massad is doing
blackmail operations against Americans, which is what the Jeffrey Epstein
against Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
It's not even just Americans.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
It would have to be Donald like it would have
to be our president, right.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
But the Masad is an intelligence organization, a very lethal
and effective intelligence organization has juststrated in the Twelve Day
War and before with pager operations and so forth. They're
in the skullduggery business. What I want to say here
is I don't think that they're doing this against like
American politicians or American celebrities, And there is no evidence
(17:16):
to suggest at this point, you know, other than like
kind of throwaway comment that was made by a journalists
like I recently went through like reading like how did
this thing start? But on the other hand, if you
just wanted to look at well, does do intelligence organizations?
Does the Masad conduct what are known as honey traps?
(17:38):
Of course they do?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Sure, Sure.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Do they engage in blackmail? Of course they do. That's
probably one of the ways they were able to penetrate Iran.
I mean, it's like and as somebody who's written a
lot about the Masad over the years, and you know
is read a lot of books and talk to x
Masad people and a couple current Masade people over the
you know, as a journalist, I don't have like you know,
if you if you just want to sort of say
(18:02):
Massa's an intelligence agency and as an intelligence agency, it's
it's up to its neck and a bunch of skullduggery.
I agree, But that's not what you know, what I'm saying,
that doesn't mean that's not that's not what they're saying.
They're kind of going much further. Yeah, and there are
lots of unanswered questions about Jeffrey Epstein that I still
have lots of skepticism about. I still am like not
(18:26):
satisfied that he was that the guards just happened to
not catch him killing himself in the cell. I also
have come to really want to love a good financial
reporter to explain to me this hedge fund with only
one client, what the hell is that he's got gazillions
of dollars that he's supposedly managing. He has no experience
(18:46):
really as a financial manager. Who are his clients? How
did this happen? We're talking about a lot of money,
So it might be and I'm just throwing this out
as a possibility that there is some perhaps maybe not
even masade. It might be CIA. Might be. This might
have been a sort of intelligence agency slush fund. This
happened before what I want to try to do. And
I did an episode of my podcast Breaking History on
(19:10):
it was about JFK and his assassination, and I did
not come up by saying I said, I don't think
I think that Lee rvy Oswald did it. And he
was alone assassin, which is boring at this point, But
what I said is I kind of understand why so
many Americans didn't believe it then and don't believe it now.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, they've been lied to about other things too.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Exactly so. And so when you have Bongino, Bondie and
Patel doing a one to eighty and not explaining why, well, like, okay,
I don't believe it. I don't think there's much evidence
of this, you know, Epstein Masad stuff. But I also
kind of understand, like, wait a second, even these people
(19:52):
are not being straight with us.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, all right, switching gears, let's switch gears. What do
you worry about?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
That's a great question. I have a four year old daughter,
so of course I worry about the future. Were all
kinds of reasons for her, little things like you know,
she's at the age now when we are walking in
the city she can break away from me when we're
across the street. That makes me crazy. So that's like
an immediate thing. But in the more house for sense,
like I want her to have the kinds of things
(20:20):
that I guess I took for granted in my life,
Like I want her to be able to go to
college without being indoctrinated, without being intimidated because she's Jewish.
I don't want her to, Like, I don't want her
to I wanted to be able to, like have romantic
relationships when she's of age without it being fraught with
(20:40):
all this you know, political stuff, Like I just very
very like, I don't want her to kind of come
into a culture where all the things that I took
for granted are not available for her, including maybe you
could say, are the prosperity by the luck that I
was born when I was born and was able to
have this kind of comfort and so forth. So that
that's something I say, I worry about. But on the
(21:03):
other hand, I tend to be an optimist. I'm especially
an optimist about America. I'm also an optimist in Israel.
So I kind of feel like we're going to get
it right. And I see all kinds of reasons to
think we are getting it right.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So it's a very optimistic moment. Actually, I feel like
there's a lot of doom and gloom and you know,
black pilling, as the kids say, But it's actually a
very very optimistic, forward looking moment right now.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Absolutely, I mean, listen, I think that, you know, there
are there are elements of the Trump administration's policies on
higher education that I don't agree with, in something I
really applaud, but I also think that like it's I
think we're also culturally in a moment where like that
(21:54):
there's an understanding in these elite schools. Hey, this isn't
really sustainable.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, things are changing.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
The battle is not over. It's like the war's not
over yet. But there's been major things that have you know,
we went from in the course of like four years
maybe where you had people at the commanding heights of
our culture screaming DEI and intersectionalism and all this stuff
is not a thing, like you know what I mean,
(22:21):
Like it's not a thing to like a real recognition
and the Supreme Court decision like that's.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Big, huge stuff.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
And again, so I have again, I have a lot
of faith in our system, and I think that the
Trump election is unjostling a lot of things. Some of
it will not be for good. Some I think a
lot of it will be for good. But it's a
We're in a change and it's good. We needed to change.
Like I was, I was depressed in twenty twenty and
twenty twenty mine, Yeah about like we're just stagnant. And
(22:52):
I don't feel like we're stagnant it's much anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I was negative on America for the first time in
my life, Like, I was pessimistic for the very first
time in my life life on America. During that time,
I thought we were heading in such a bad direction,
and I was scary.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
But what is it? It doesn't it? I mean that
that statistic that came out that ninety three percent of
Republicans love their country and like thirty six percent of
Democrats do.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It's a worrying number.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah, in a way, it's wearing, but it's also like wow,
Like what is it? You know, Like that's a wake
up call, Like you can't you can't get a major
natural party if most of the people who identify.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
With hate the country.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, you kind of have to, like at.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
A certain point sort of part of the bargain.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
The argument can't be yeah America sucks, it's got to
be Yeah, America is great, and here's how to make
it better.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. What advice would you
give your sixteen year old self.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Well, the first thing I guess I would say is
you have ADHD and it has been not been te
coost yet. That explains why you're constantly like reading like
seven books at the same time. It's fine, you know
you'll but like, that's the first thing I would say.
There's nothing wrong with you, it's like you know. But
the second thing I just I would say is believe
in your own talent like you have. You have the
(24:11):
ability to write for a living, like you should. You
should do that because by sixteen, I think I knew
I wanted to do it. Just stick with it, like
because I wasn't a good writer at age sixteen. The
very few people are sure and don't don't be demoralized
about it. So I don't know if that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, definitely to stick with it and don't be demoralized
is good advice for that age. I loved this conversation.
You are just somebody. I love hearing from you.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And I always love reading.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
You leave us here with your best tip for my
listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I think the best tip would be fine time in
your week to read or listen to books. If you
don't like reading books, if you can't find that stillness,
take a walk and put on an audiobook to learn
and dive into things that you're passionate about. So, in
(25:11):
my view, like don't let you know it's it's great
to listen to podcasts. It's great to like, I understand
that we're living in the era of influencers, and that's fine.
Maybe I'm sort of an influencer. I don't know, and
you're certainly an influencer.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You influenced me.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah, But what I mean to say is there's a
whole world out there and you can become like you
don't have to depend on these other people filtering stuff
go out Like I find like I have a mixed
I'm not a doomer about artificial intelligence, and I'm also
not like I don't think it's the greatest thing in
the world. But one of the things that I do
(25:46):
that helps me with you know, when I do these
deep dives for bringing history, I just ask the chat
gipt or I use Brock a lot. Now, what are
the three best books on X? And if you just
do that and then you know they're not always going
to be right, but like you can get a little
summary in the answer and if it looks like it's
(26:06):
pretty good, that's what That's what I would say. Read
books or listen to books like that's that advice.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yes, absolutely you can, you know, go to the source material.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Don't just rely on influencer. He's Eli Lake.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Read him at free Press, Listen to the Breaking History
podcast anywhere you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Thank you so much, Eli for coming on.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Thank you Carol
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