May 29, 2024 • 50 mins
On today's Dan Patrick Show, DP discusses Bronny James' decision to stay in the NBA Draft. Senior NBA Insider for TNT Chris Haynes tells us why he thinks JJ Redick will be the next Lakers' Head Coach. Plus, MLB historian John Thorn discusses the decision to include Negro League stats with MLB stats.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You are listening to The Dan Patrick Show on Fox
Sports Radio. It's our one on this Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Come on in, stay awhile Dan and the Dan at
Dan Patrick Show recap the basketball last night. Hockey last night,
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(00:28):
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(01:11):
buying should be play of the day, out of the day,
poll question, all of that forthcoming. I don't know if
it's breaking news, but it's being treated as such. Lebron
James's son, Bronnie James, will be in the NBA Draft.
Today was the deadline for him if he wanted to
go back to college. And I never heard any rumblings
of maybe going to Arkansas with John Caliperi also Ducane
(01:35):
with a connection with Lebron James there, maybe going back
to USC, maybe going to SMU where Andy Enfield, who
is the USC coach, is now the head coach. He
is going into the draft right now, rated as the
fifty fourth best prospect. And I want to talk to
Chris Haynes from Bleacher Report also TNT. He's working the
(01:56):
Western Conference finals and I want to ask him about
you know, what's going on with Rich Paul is Lebron's agent,
and it feels like they're trying to place Bronnie James.
They're letting teams know as if they have the power here,
they're in control. This isn't a high school recruit picking
(02:17):
his college. But you get the feeling that Lebron James's
camp and his agent Rich Paul, are saying to teams
he's going to pick where he wants to play or
who's going to draft him. Well, it's the Lakers. That's
where you would want him to go, and Lebron would
want him to go there. Everybody stays in Los Angeles,
(02:37):
Lebron then will be able to get his new contract
and then he'll still be a Laker. And you know,
Rich Paul slipped maybe it was on purpose that Lebron
is a free agent now and that I think brought
a little attention there to a situation we thought, no,
it's a mere formality. He's going to opt back in
(02:57):
or get his new contract and stay with the Lakers.
So just something to keep an eye on that Lebron
James's son is going to stay in the draft and
basically telling teams, hey, he's not going to be a
guy you're going to put down in the G League.
He's going to play. We want to make sure he
has developed, we want to make sure there's a financial commitment.
All of these things for a guy who didn't even
(03:18):
average five points a game in college. This is really
unheard of. But then there's one Bronnie James here until
Bronnie's brother comes into the NBA, and then they probably
try to do the same thing as lebron be forty
five years of age trying to dictate this. Yes, Paul, it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Almost has apples and oranges and Eli Manningfield to it
while being a second round pick, not the number one overall,
the father who has a lot of juice and the
agent who had a lot of juice manipulating the system
to try to get their son in a certain place.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, but Eli was the number one overall pick. Yeah, Bronnie,
I don't know if he can play in the NBA.
And everybody chooses their words carefully and they're like, oh,
you know, he's got a great upside. He understands the game.
He's physical, he's a good defender, got a good shot.
I mean, okay, there's a lot of guys who have that,
(04:11):
a lot of guys who have a whole lot more
than that. So I look at this two different ways.
He's Ronnie James, and he could be successful in the
NBA and still be a failure to people if he averages.
Let's say ten points a game, that'd be a failure.
Let's say he played for ten years, that would be
(04:33):
a failure to people. But also he's getting attention because
his name. If his name was, you know, Ronnie Smith,
no one would care. But it's Ronnie James. He's got
to have an inordinate amount of pressure on him when
he gets to the NBA, because we're going to go, Okay,
what are you going. Let me see what you got.
(04:54):
Let me see when you're playing against the pros. If
you couldn't play well at a high level, you know
in the past twelve now you're going to go to
the NBA. You know this is there's going to be
a bright spotlight on him.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Now.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
By all accounts, he's handled himself quite well, and even
everything he went through at USC, I was hoping he'd
play one more year in college just to see if
he does develop. And there's late bloomers. We see this
all the time with players. Maybe he is a late bloomer.
Maybe he's going to be one of those eighth ninth
(05:27):
player off the bench, you know, be able to play
some minutes, quality minutes, Maybe be a guy who plays defense,
runs the point, backup point guard. I don't know if
he's a starter, but I watch USC games, not highlights.
I watched games this year, and usually Marvin and I
would you know, communicate back and forth because I would say,
(05:47):
you know, are you watching? And then there were times
when I'd watch USC play and I didn't even know
he was on the floor. But then he would have
these moments and maybe he gets a fair shot here,
maybe more than a fair shot because of his last day.
I just I would hope to tamp down some of
the expectations that are going to be there because he's
(06:08):
not going to be able to achieve. Like Michael Jordan's kids.
I mean, they played in college, but they didn't play
at a high level, didn't get to the NBA. But
even talk of you know, if Mike said, hey, I
want to play with you know, one of my sons
in the NBA, somebody probably would have made that happen.
But Lebron has made it his mission that, you know,
before he exit stage left, he's going to play with
(06:31):
his son in the NBA. Yes, Mark, The.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
One thing me and you got from watching USC games
is that Isaiah Collier is a baller. Yes, we're like oh,
Bronnie James. Okay, anyway about Isaiah Colley. That's all we
talked about when we used to text.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yes, because that guy was bringing it every time. And
you're like, if if that was Bronnie doing that, then
people would go, oh, first pick. Yeah, I'm gonna he's
gonna because this isn't a great NBA draft, so factor
that in. They're trying to get covered here. The mothership
is like, can we get clicks? Yeah? How about we
(07:06):
just focus on Brownie James. That's it. I mean, Reed
Shepherd from Kentucky. I ain't gonna happen. A couple of
Yukon players that ain't gonna happen. There's no buzz here.
And here's Bronnie is the name. Whether he goes in
the first round or second round, I mean, he's gonna
get drafted. The question is who takes him? And you
(07:30):
know how much power does he have? Yeah? See, there
are a few.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
Things in this business more difficult than pumping the brakes?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Is that really like what we do? Yes?
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Just look at Anthony Edwards last two weeks. He was
the next Michael Jordan by far, the closest thing we've
ever seen to Michael drorid this is it, and we're
watching it from the very beginning of well, he can't
win in the play, look at it. He's gonna get swept.
And they say, hey, look at he have the game.
He put the team on his back list. It is
a roller coaster ride, and he doesn't get the benefit
of the doubt of like, hey, guys, don't compare him
(08:01):
to his dad.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Okay, his dad's a totally separate player. He's his own person. Whatever.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
It's kind of what this business is now, is I know?
But I am and Brian Jeans is caught up in
that for sure.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
I know. I'm old, old school. And that's why when
as soon as those comparisons with Michael Jordan, I said,
he doesn't want it, he never asked for it, and
he can't live up to that right now, nobody can.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
The road of the NBA is littered with the bodies
of my former Michael Jordan's's and this dude doesn't want
it either.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
No, and he's a really good player. He's not Michael Jordan.
But with that rush to judgment like, oh, we gotta
who's he remind you of? It's like when when Keith
Van Horn came into the NBA. They go, man, he's
just like Larry Bird. I go, no, he's not. No, no,
he's white. And that's where the comparisons end. He's huh man,
(08:56):
when you have a white guy who can shoot three
reminds me of Dirk Navitzk. No, no, no, Brad Lohas
is not Dirk Navitzky. Watch it.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I don't know. I just came to mind the band. Yes, yes,
but get ready for it, because that's what the draft
is going to be about. And uh, I hope he
gets an opportunity to just play. It's not going to happen.
But this is the father in me. And this is
somebody with forty years of experience of witnessing all of
(09:32):
this in all of these sports where this guy is
the next, and I always say no, no, nobody's the next.
We want to make them the next. They're not. You
forge your own path there. That's the beauty of sports.
There's nobody like certain players, and there never will be.
There'll never be another Tiger Woods. Somebody can swing like him,
(09:55):
hit like him, even look like him, they won't be
Tiger Woods. There's not another Nicholas I mean down through history,
there's not another of all these great players. The only
one who's close with Michael Jordan was Kobe because Kobe
was same size and modeled his game, studied. He wanted
(10:15):
to be Mike, and that's as close as we ever got.
But he still wasn't Mike.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
All right?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Eight seven seven three DP show email address dpat dan
Patrick dot com, Twitter handle a DP show. It's like
watching Caitlin Clark last night. I said, maybe she's going
to average twenty to ten, that would be a great season. Four. Well,
she had thirty last night. They lost again. They're not
a good team, and she's averaging sixteen and seven and
we're going, uh okay, all right, and I liken her too.
(10:44):
And here's the comparison that will be out of left field,
but follow me on this. Barry Sanders' final year at
Oklahoma State nineteen eighty eight eleven games. He rushed for
twenty six hundred yards and he had thirty seven rushing touchdowns.
So that was one year. Barry Sanders gets drafted Detroit Lions.
(11:06):
Next season, he plays fifteen games, he rushes for fourteen
hundred yards, and he has fourteen rushing touchdowns. Is that
a disappointment, Well, it's just reality. He was unbelievable. He
could have rushed for three thousand yards at Oklahoma State.
He had twenty six hundred yards rushing and thirty seven
(11:29):
rushing touchdowns in eleven games. Gets to the NFL and like, okay,
well that's the reality. Caitlin Clark is dealing with the
reality of the WNBA. She's not failing, it's just your expectation.
She's not going to average twenty seven a game, not
anytime soon. And when Diana Tarassi warned everybody and everybody's
(11:53):
like a hater. No, Diana Tarossi was giving you the truth.
It is tough. Yeah, remember how great Reggie Bush was
at USC And we're like, ah, Lee, we've never seen
anybody like get to the NFL. We're like, uh, all right,
he's okay. That's what being a professional does. They get paid,
(12:16):
they're not going to class, they don't have a side job.
Their job is to be great at what they do,
and that could be guarding you, scoring on you, being physical.
They're professional. Barry Sanders wasn't a letdown his first year,
and watching Caitlin Clark last night while she put up thirty.
(12:36):
She's got to learn how to play a professional game now,
because in college you get away with a lot of things.
But she's learning. And if you watch when she started
to where she is now, she's got to learn to
move without the ball a whole lot better. She's got
to understand that first piece of contact that she gets.
Try to avoid that if you can, but if you
(12:57):
get it, then try to utilize that contact. But she
can still shoot, she can still pass a lot of turnovers.
But you know they're all learning here. I mean, what
was Troy Aikman's rookie year? What was Peyton Manning? What
was John Elway? Some of the greatest you fail and
then you learn. The great ones learn, They pick up something,
(13:19):
they add something, they add something again the next year.
But watching Caitlyn Clark, she hasn't failed. She's learning. But
I think people look at this like, Okay, this is
all the hype. Let's see what she does in her career.
Is she going to be as good as Diana Tarrossi?
She can only hope to be as good as her
or some of the legends who played. There are some
(13:41):
wonderful players. We're just noticing the WNBA now at least
a lot of people are because of Caitlyn Clark. She's
bringing a lot of power, a lot of attention, a
lot of notoriety, and when you watch, you realize there
are some really good talented players, yes, Marva.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
And I think Diana Trossi was speaking from experience like
she was Kaitlin Clark. Not at that level, but she
was the best player in college basketball, and she's the
number one pick in the WNBA Draft. She knows what
Kayln Clark was about to go through. So she's telling her, Hey,
the stuff I could do at you can I cannot
do that at this level right away? And people will
this guy, you know, So it was, hey.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Don't like the truth. She wasn't being unfair. I mean,
if you know Diana Trossi, you've met her, you listened
to her. She just tells you the truth like she's
not trying to sugarcoat anything. She was being honest. And
I think when we get to these expectations, and look,
Ronnie James is gonna face this. He's not as talented
as Barry Sanders was in college or Kaitlin Clark, but
(14:43):
the expectation level has to be modified because if not
You're gonna everybody's gonna say the same thing about him,
and it's not fair to him. And maybe you don't care.
I do because I look at this and you want
somebody to at least have an opportunity a fair Maybe
he's getting it more of a more than his fair
(15:03):
share of a fair shake because of who he is.
But I just I'm just bracing you for what it's
going to be like in the coming weeks when we
get ready for the NBA Draft. What's Lebron going to do?
What are the Lakers going to do? What if Phoenix
drafts him, would Lebron go the You know, it's just
going to be a jigsaw puzzle and there's going to
(15:23):
be a couple of pieces that are left out. It's
going to be a mess. But that's sort of what
we've embraced now in today's sports world.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Yeah, Pauline, going back to Diana Tarassi, Like you said,
she was All American superstar coming out of yukon her
rookie year in the WNBA share with seventeen points and
four assists, very nice numbers one rookie the year. Two
years later she was averaging twenty six. Yeah, drastic improvement.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, but you know you're I'm watching Caitlin Clark. She's
got to get a little bit more of a physical,
bigger she's got a you know, because it's a long run,
and plus she's been playing basketball since what's September. It's
been a run all the way through and she needs
some help. You watch that team. There's a reason why
they had the number one pick. They're not good. They
(16:08):
didn't trade to get the number one pick. They earned it.
They were terrible. Yes, Mark, I.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Wasn't gonna say anything.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
I was right with you completely, like, yeah, I saw
them play and I was like, whoa, I see why.
And also it seems like she's not shooting to try
to ingratiate herself, you know, amongst her teammates, Like you
know what, I don't want to shoot twenty five times
even though I probably should.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, I said that she would be more of a
passer facilitator her first year. Learn the game, learn your teammates,
earn their trust, and then she's gonna have a couple
of breakout games. But if you're going in and going man,
she's a disappointment, then you don't really follow sports because
it's a journey. It's not I got a referendum on
this player. But after three games, five games, ten games,
(16:55):
hopefully she's playing a long time.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
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Speaker 3 (17:08):
Two NBA Insiders podcasting twice a week to plug you
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Speaker 6 (17:14):
Fine, all happening in only one place. This League Uncut,
the new NBA podcast with me Chris.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Haynes and me Mark Stein join us.
Speaker 6 (17:24):
As we team up to expound on everything we're covering.
Hearing and Chason.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Listen to This League Uncut with Chris Haynes and Mark Stein.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
See would you update the poll results? Then we'll bring
in our buddy, Chris Haynes.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
How many more games do you think the Minnesota Timberwolves
will win this series?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Okay? Zero, one, two, or three?
Speaker 5 (17:50):
Right now, about forty percent of the audience have one,
which is a pretty easy answer. Thirty thirty four percent
have zero three games thirteen.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
That's pretty good. That's pretty optimistic. Chris Haynes, senior NBA
insider for TNT Bleacher Report, part of the Western Conference Finals.
Al Cast Untrue TV. You got Vince Carter and Adam Lefko,
got a few Beaumani Jones is on there and also
he has a basketball podcast with Mark Stein hashtag this
League uncut Always good to see it. Chris Hope or
(18:23):
false Hope? After last night's win by the Timberwolves, Well.
Speaker 6 (18:28):
DP, I think you have to go off of history,
and history will tell us no team has come back
from O three deficit. So with that being said, I
have to say is false hope?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Okay? What changed last night in your opinion? And does
that continue to change in game? You know, the next
game here in Minnesota.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Well, there were a couple of things that changed, but
number one was Carl Anthony Towns, you know, showed up
on the offensive end, played efficiently, and I think if
you look at his game and how he operated in
that game, he didn't shoot his first three till later
in the game. He was attacking and getting downhill, getting
to the paint and finishing. Now he was in foul trouble,
(19:10):
but offensively he was very effective and efficient and that
helped Anthony Edwards, who are the last couple of games,
is trying to trying to been exerting his energy and
so in his offensive prowess. But he had a sidekick
the other night, and so I think that's what helped.
Now the question is can Kat continue to do that
because this series is just not it's just hadn't been
(19:33):
a good series for him thus far.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
A topic of conversation on the most dynamic, best scoring
backcourt in history. Do you buy into the Kyrie Luca
that's the best scoring backcourt in NBA history?
Speaker 6 (19:49):
He always do this DP the best scoring backcourt duo.
I will say that, you know, off the top of
my head, they're probably the most talented offensive scoring duo.
You know. You know, we heard what Draymond said about
(20:10):
about his guys, talking about Stephan Clay, But I would
say skill wise, Luca and Kyrie pound for pound or
better offensively, Look, I would like to hold off and
wait until at least they get a championship. They get
a championship, then we can talk. You know, we had
a there was a somebody gave us a question on
(20:31):
our past last night, asking if this win, if the
if the Dallas Mavericks won last night. If that was
se ment Kyrie's legacy, I'm like seeming this legacy and
what we talked this to the conference finals, like what
can we stock? Can we hold off police? Can we
get to the very end? Now, if you get a championship,
we can talk talk like Luca, he's arguably arguably the
(20:56):
best player in the game, but if he gets a championship,
you know, winning the championship is always favor the best
player in that series. I remember when Dwayne Wade won
his championships and there were arguments that if he was
the best player you some will say yes, some say no,
But you want a championship. You couldn't deny that. So
I like to get to the end of the road
(21:17):
before we start talking this stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I've been talking patients this morning with our expectation level,
whether it's Caitlin Clark or Brownie James. Having perspective here
and forty years of watching young players come in and
they get chewed up. Sometimes sometimes we give them a
little bit more rope, not anymore. We want immediate gratification.
(21:40):
Whether it's a coach in Phoenix or la Hey, you
could be one and done or two years and done.
Our star athletes, we want them that you're getting paid,
We want to see you play. You better be playing
at a high level. When did it change that we
didn't allow almost a grace period to allow these athletes
to kind of get their legs.
Speaker 6 (22:02):
I think social media has played a part in that,
where everybody has a voice, so there's more takes, there's
more commentary. Everybody feels like they have to say something.
You know, look, look deep. I think what it is
is that you know this this generation today, they're in
the microwave age. You know, they want to pop a
meal in the microwave and they want and if it's
heating for longer than a minute, they don't want it.
(22:24):
They do their attention span is lost. But you know what,
there's something there's something great about putting the meal in
the crock pop or putting that bad boy in the
oven for eight hours allowed it to simmer. Then when
it comes out that meat is just falling off the bone.
Or if you like the barbecue like me, put in
the smoker, putting that smoker for eight, ten, twelve hours.
Take let it take your time. You wrap it up,
(22:46):
wrap it up, you put your you know, if you
got some ribs or whatever, you put your your honey
down there on the meat, You put your your brown
your brown sugar, and you just wrap it up and
foil put it back in that bad boy another four
five hours and then it comes off of a man.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
You're too young to have this kind of perspective. Let's
guess how old Chris Haynes is. Okay, tod, I'm gonna
go with you. Chris Haynes is thirty nine, Okay, I
was going thirty eight Seaton.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
I think you guys are being rude.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
He's thirty six, all right, Marvin.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
That hairline is beautiful. But you know he og though,
so I'm gonna say forty two. He looks like he
was like two years ahead of me in high school.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
All right.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
His buck O'Neil would say, good black, don't crack, sure,
don't uh? Okay, all right, Pauline.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
This is really tough. His shoe game forty years old?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Even all right, forty years old.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
Even shoe game. You know, I always keep coming.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
He always got him close by. All right, here we go,
Chris Haynes bleacher or TNT is.
Speaker 6 (23:54):
I believe Marlon got it? Forty two?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Wow? I'm on now, all right, and he still got
to I'll be.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Forty three to end August August thirty.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
First, all right, help me understand what's going on with
Rich Paul with did he slip up and say Lebron's
a free agent? Or was that premeditated? And it's and
how is he orchest He's almost trying to orchestrate where
Bronnie's going to go, as if they have a choice
where he's going to go. It's not like you're a
(24:24):
high school athlete picking your college. But man, I get
the feeling that Rich Paul is at least presenting this
to other teams that we're going to dictate where he's
going to go, and if you don't abide by us,
we don't want And I don't know what those I
don't know what he could do if a team drafts Bronnie,
what are you going to do? Can't go back to college?
So what do you think? What do you what's Rich
(24:46):
Paul's game here?
Speaker 6 (24:48):
Well? I think first I'm gonna ask a couple, you know, questions,
a couple of ways DP. So first of all, all
I think what he wants is Briannie to be drafted
first and foremost, you know, when you get drafted, it's
not DP. Back the day, you know, I wasn't covering
the league back in the day, but you know, in
the nineties, I remember, remember when second round picks DP.
Remember most second round picks didn't make the team. They
(25:10):
didn't get guaranteed contracts back then. That it's changed over
the last ten years. Second round picks are getting three
four year guaranteed deals. You know, they're getting commitment, they're
getting time and resources invested into them. So Rich Paul's
statement to me about him not him not he's not
going to allow Brinnie James to sign a two way contract,
(25:32):
and people took that as off he gonna try to
keep Brinnie from going to the G League. No, it's
not that. It's that he would rather Brinnie get drafted,
which means the team is showing a commitment and he
could get three four years guaranteed money under his belt.
And also about the dictating, I think, you know, I
think basically, if there is any dictating, I think the
(25:52):
only dictating is as of right now, only power he
has in dictating is trying to tell teams in the
form of the league that two way would not be considered.
So if you're really thinking about if you're really thinking
about having the chance of getting Brownie's going to take
one of your draft picks. I think that's what he
was trying to get to the masses.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Okay, but what if a team drafts Himan says, hey,
we're going to send you down to the G League, Which.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
That's fine, No, that's fine. Drafted, he's still getting a
three year minimum guaranteed. Yeah, And that's the investment. That's
the commitment. You know, when you get a two way,
you know, that's a year deal. Then you know, you
play fifty you play forty something games in the NBA,
forty something games in the G League. If things work out,
you know, they can move on after a year, you know.
(26:38):
So that's the difference between a two way deal and
then getting drafted, where that's actually a commitment that a
team is putting into you and they're going to give
you a three year, four year guaranteed deal. And so
that's where Rich Paul is trying. That's the direction Rich
Paul is trying to steer his.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Climbing Lebron going to re sign with the Lakers, DP.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
I have a hard time believe even he's going to
go anywhere else and fatigue. I'm sorry to answer you
a question about the slip up. It wasn't a slip up.
I don't know. What I will say is a lot
of players and agents feel like if their client has
a player option, they view it as being a free
(27:19):
agent because they had that option to pick it up
or not. But you're technically not a free agent until
you decline that player option. So I don't know. If
people saw the alltcast, I immediately as soon as Rich
Paul said, you know, Blond's a free agent, I had
to look. So if you saw, if you look at
the autcast, look at the replay, he says, Lebron is
a free agent. So I look down, because you know,
this is my job, it's my job to stay up
(27:40):
on top of this. I look down and start googling.
I'm like, when did Lebron announced he was declined the
player option? And I couldn't find it nowhere? So then
I'm waiting, and I got my head back up, and
I waited to Rich Paul to finished, and then I
you know, when they interjecting my hold on, you mean
he's decline that player option then he was like, Chris,
you know, I'm not going to negotiate. We'll get to
(28:02):
that down the road.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Are the Lakers waiting to announce their head coach until
the finals are over because that coach might be working
the finals?
Speaker 6 (28:12):
Yeah, I would be very surprised if their next head
coaches anybody but JJ Reddick. Everything that I'm hearing is
JJ Reddick. Ad From what I know, he's doing some
background calling some candidates, some assistant coaching candidates who might
be able to join his staff or might not be
able to join his staff, And so yeah, I'm pretty
(28:36):
I'm pretty positive it'll be JJ.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So you have the most experienced NBA player in history
coached by the least experienced head coach in the NBA.
Speaker 6 (28:47):
Yeah, what we've seen coaches getting those type of opportunities.
Steve Nash got a great opportunity as his first head
coaching gig. Jason Kidd did the same thing, Derek Fisher.
You know, we're starting to see a trend.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Steve Kerr.
Speaker 6 (29:03):
Yeah, Steve Kerr, I mean you were looking at you
see what Steve Kerr turned out to be. Look at
Jason Kidd. He's a win away from leading this team
to the NBA Finals, so it has some success. But
that's a tough job to take. It's just tough job
to take. I mean it's Lebron James. I understand JJ
and Lebron get along, well, they have a podcast. That's
just a tough job to accept. You know, under Rod
(29:26):
Polinka's tenure, he is fired. Let me see, Luke Walton fired,
Frank Vogel, he's fired Darvin Ham. So he's safe. So
if anybody's going to get some blame, it's going to
be the head coach. That's why. And there's high expectations
with that team, as there should be anytime you have
(29:47):
a team of Lebron James. On top of that being
the Los Angeles Lakers.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Celtics waiting for the winner of this series. But let's
say the Celtics win the title. How will history treat
this year's Boston Celtics.
Speaker 6 (30:00):
I'm thinking a treat on favorably. I mean, they had
a phenomenal season. They were the most dominant team for
the entire eighty two game season. Uh you know, I
know we like to talk about the path that the
team's a team takes, but all you can do is
play against the opponent that's right across from you. So
I don't think we're going to diminish them now. You know,
when you start having debates about who's the best teams,
(30:22):
I don't know that this Boss Celtics team will be
up there. But I will say this, I definitely would
like to see the Dallas and Average in the Boston
Selfish meet in the finals. I just think of to
have some interesting subplots going on, make it more interesting,
and maybe that can boost her up. If the Celtics
were to win the title, maybe that can boost her up.
(30:44):
Just how relevant and dominant this team as being. If
we if we can have a good a good series
first and foremost, and then have some drama go with it,
yeah I can help.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
But imagine if Boston doesn't win the title.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
That's a problem. That is as problem down list we
I've covered this Celtics last four years since they've been
on their championship run, and you know, they can disappoint you.
You know, the moment you think they've got it all
figured figured out, the moment you think they got those
turnovers out of the way, the turnovers come back, those
(31:19):
shot the shot selection, you know, gets horrible. Again, So
they have a tendency to I don't know what, I
don't want to say, play down, but they have a
tendency to not play to the level expectations. So if
they were to lose like this would be a big
blemish on the Celtics in general. I'm talking about just
this whole team, the whole core cast. They have to
(31:41):
get it done. It's their championship to lose.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Great to talk to you, Thanks for joining us as always, Chris.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
Hey, I appreciate all those that said mid thirties, late thirties.
I'll take it.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
That's Chris Hayne's senior NBA insider for TNT Bleacher Report
and part of the Western Conference finds alt Cast airing
on True TV. I got Vince Carter there, Adam Lefko,
Beaumani Jones on there. All right, we'll take a break.
We'll get some more phone calls coming up back after this.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Be sure to catch the live edition of The Dan
Patrick Show weekdays at nine am Eastern six am Pacific
on Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio WAP.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Final Hour in this Wednesday is it Patience Wednesday, Perspective Wednesday,
trying to add some perspective here today.
Speaker 5 (32:31):
I was trying to find a word because I don't
know how much we love alliteration, a W word that
would go with Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Like wisdom Wednesday. Oh, wisdom Wednesday. Damnit.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
See I've been spending two hours thinking about that. Why
can you just ask me lesson learned? Yeah, that you
know what that is? Then wisdom?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, thank you, thank you. Paulie hates a literation for
somebody whose name is Paul Papps amongst the reasons. Yes,
I think that's why. Yeah, I think that's why. But
did they call you pep a little bit? I got
a lot. Yeah, it didn't really bother me that much. Yeah,
of course, is that sticking with you later?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, I'm completely over.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
I'm over.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I'm over.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
First day of kindergarten app ruined it whole life.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
I was a little guy too, I couldn't really defend myself.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Kids can be so brutal. Oh my gosh, that mean
worst they are, and they go they go right for
the jugular. I mean they wanted to hurt a little bit,
and they make fun of you. Eight seven to seven
three DP show email address Dpadanpatrick dot com, Twitter handle
ADP show. Make sure you check out our YouTube channel.
Also uh Fox Sports Radio, iHeartRadio. Thank you for all
(33:38):
the great things that you do for us and Peacock,
our streaming partner. Download the app if you haven't done so.
Stars Oilers Game four tonight Timberwolves beat the MAVs. Is
it hope or false hope? MAVs go up three games
to one. Caitlin Clark had thirty in a loss. And
baseball has revamped its statistical history. And the man who
(34:00):
is responsible for this, he is the official historian of
Major League Baseball, John Thorn, who joins us. John, explain
what you've been doing and how long you've been doing
it to get to this point today.
Speaker 7 (34:12):
Of course, Dan, first of all, to indicate that many
hands have made like the work I am, by no
means the most important person in this entire scenario. It's
people like Larry Lester and Gary Ashwell and Kevin Johnson
who have been the diggers, who have been reading black
(34:32):
newspapers on microfilm and microfiche for decades, and now some
of that has been digitized. But it is the research
effort that we memorialized with the Committee to Review Negro
League Statistics, whereby we set some policies for leaderboards, in
(34:53):
particular single season leader boards and career leader boards that
have upturned the baseball world.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Okay, do you have to have for something to be validated?
You have to have a box score?
Speaker 7 (35:10):
Absolutely, absolutely, you have to have a score. Okay, because
as you know, baseball is a double entry accounting system,
whereby every out made at the plate is reflected in
an out made in the field, either a pitcher catcher
strikeout or a grounder or short that's an assist for
the shortstop and a put out for the first basement.
(35:33):
Absence that balance, and if we started to intrude anecdotal
evidence into the database, the balance of MLB's history since
eighteen seventy six would be destroyed.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
What has changed as far as individual as far as
an individual like Josh Gibson or an individual category season,
give us the statistical fallout from this.
Speaker 7 (35:58):
The leaderboards will have changed. And Josh Gibson is the
single season leader in batting average and slugging and ops.
But he's already been memorialized in bronze at the Baseball
Hall of Fame like many of his others. But there
are twenty three hundred players, some of whom were in
(36:20):
for a cup of coffee or an inconsequential season in
a league that didn't last very long. And it's these players,
these individuals whose families can now point to their name
in the record book and say he was a Major leaguer.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
How many home runs did Josh Gibson officially hit? Officially?
Speaker 7 (36:43):
I believe the number is one seventy four in league play.
Is Hall of Fame plaque reads that he hit nearly
eight hundred in some combination of league and independent ball.
But independent ball is barnstorming ball, and you never know
what the quality of the opposition was, whether it's semi pro,
(37:04):
whether it's amateur. Because the Negro leagues, with their shortened seasons,
their shortened league seasons, were compelled to play lots of games,
more so than MLB in order to keep the revenue
stream flowing.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Will there be asterisks in the record books.
Speaker 7 (37:25):
There will be no asterisks, just as the prospect of
an asterisk go along inside Roger Maris's sixty one homers
way back when never was actualized. It is MLB policy
that there is one continuous record from eighteen seventy six
(37:47):
to the present day, and not a single statistic bears
an asterisk or a footnote.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
And it's not just the Negro leagues. There are other
leagues that are incorporated in this whole process.
Speaker 7 (38:02):
Sure, there are defunct major leagues, and many of our
listeners will not have heard of the American Association as
a ten year major eighteen eighty two to eighteen ninety one,
or the Union Association of eighteen eighty four, or the
Players League of eighteen ninety or the Federal League of
nineteen fourteen and fifteen. But these leagues were deemed to
(38:23):
be major league caliber back in nineteen sixty nine, and
all of those players' records are in the database.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
He is the official historian of Major League Baseball, John Thorne.
That's a pretty good title there. Do you have a
business card? I do have a business nice I like that.
Speaker 7 (38:41):
I sometimes had it to my wife.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
What's the coolest thing in your library?
Speaker 6 (38:46):
There?
Speaker 7 (38:48):
The coolest thing might be the oil painting of Jim Boughten,
my pal, the Knickerbocker pennant, which was the first flag
over the Knickerbocker Baseball Club clubhouse in eighteen fifty five.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
You remember when Ball four came out with Jim Bowten
if that came out now, that would be like nobody
would even think twice. But back then in nineteen seventy,
it's like, oh my gosh, here's an athlete who is
spilling on his teammates and what it's like on the road.
Speaker 7 (39:22):
And it was an athlete's own voice. It was not
a ghost written job as so many of the player
autobiographies or the Christy Matthewson books, the King Kelly books,
the cap ans and books, they were all ghosted.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
It's great to talk to you, John, Congratulations on the
process and everybody else in this. Did Babe Ruth actually
call his shot in the World Series?
Speaker 7 (39:48):
No, there is some eight millimeter footage of the Babe
and he's pointing to the Cubs clubhouse where he was
being razzed. And if you view this footage from the
wrong perspective, you think he's pointing to center field, but
he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
It was a joke for Ruth too. Oh he kind
of ruined that story there. John, Thanks for joining us,
and again, congratulations to everybody involved in this. My pleasure, Dan,
that's John Thorne, the official historian of Major League Baseball.
It's a big title there. Now I'm wondering. Let's say
(40:29):
we looked at other sports there, ABA NBA combine that?
Speaker 6 (40:33):
Right?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Can you look at Canadian Football League and factor that
in with the Pro Football Hall of Fame NFL numbers?
How about USFL with herschel Walker's numbers? There? Does do
those sports get around to doing that? The ABA, I
certainly understand because of the teams they absorbed and the
(40:57):
great players that were there. How many points does doctor
J have Marvin? Do we know if PAULI do you
have that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
I got Doctor J Julius Irving having almost twelve thousand
points just in the ABA. And if you look at
a thing called Basketball Reference, which is basically the Bible
of basketball stats, they split it into ABA and NBA stats,
But then they have ABA NBA combined, so you can
look at all those stats.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
But does the Basketball Hall of Fame do they recognize
these stats so they are combined?
Speaker 3 (41:28):
I got to check that, but I believe they recognize
combined stats like Lebron James is the all time leading scorer?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Okay, but how many points does doctor J officially have? ABA?
And NBA? Checking? Because That's what I was curious about,
and I should know that I thought they factored both
of those in or eventually got around to that. Yes, Mark,
he's got thirty twenty six points, but he doesn't get
credit for thirty thousand doh. Right when Lebron was going
(41:59):
for you know, we talked about Karl Malone his record,
Kareem's record, but I didn't hear Lebron with Doctor Jay's
record getting past thirty thousand points. At least I don't
remember that, do you.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
We're checking on that one. It's unclear how they look
at it the league itself.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
And I know they had a three point shot with
the ABA, but you had so much talent you absorbed
some of those teams that you should look at those
numbers and combine those numbers, just like what we're having
with Major League Baseball. Yeah, see basketball reference.
Speaker 5 (42:30):
By the way, the original reference point for career salary game. Oh,
spent an incredible amount of time on that. Back at
the Mothership looking at Kevin Garton. Had to be two
hundred and fifty million dollars.
Speaker 6 (42:40):
Do you believe this?
Speaker 5 (42:42):
That didn't We just go through this with Caitlyn Clark
and Lynette Woodard. Yes, where there were there were Well,
she's passing Caitlyn's passing Pete Marivitch.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
But there's somebody that still has more. And I said,
Lynette Woodard played, you know, at what Kansas and she
played for the Harlem Globetrotters. It wasn't called the n
you know, women's basketball, wasn't the NC Double A. And
I said, that's that's nonsense. That Caitlin had to surpass
Lynnette Woodard. And then they finally recognized her, and rightfully,
(43:12):
so you know, she was still going against collegiate talent.
They just didn't recognize it. The NC DOUBLEA didn't. But ABA,
NBA are those numbers combined, PAULI.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
They it appears that they're not. I'm on the NBA's website,
the official NBA website, and it does not include Doctor
J's points in the ABA.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
See that's wrong.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Get to go at it.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
I I I'm trying to, I like when you're upset. Yeah,
but I look, I got to watch some ABA games
and the talent level was awesome. The game was the
ABA was like the AFL. It was fun. The NFL
was boring, you know, it was like three yards in
(43:56):
a cloud of dust. The NBA, it did have some
good players. It wasn't as exciting as the ABA ABA
was wide open shooting the three, the red, White, Blue ball.
It was great, great teams, a lot of talent. They
should count that. It's kind of a shame that they don't. Now,
I understand the CFL because you know different rules and
(44:19):
how you play in the CFL with three downs, four downs,
you know the amount of passing yards that you're going
to have in the CFL. But Warren Moon's numbers in
the CFL or Doug Flutie's numbers in the CFL, can
you incorporate that, Jim Kelly's numbers in the USFL, Herschel's
numbers in the USFL. Can you put it all under
(44:43):
one umbrella? It was professional football, and these players did
go on to have great careers in the NFL. You
know Anthony Carter when he played, I mean he had
a lot of guys that played in the USFL, Steve Young.
Can you put it under the all under one umbrella there?
(45:03):
I don't know if I don't know if pro football
would do that, but it is. It's called the Pro
Football Hall of Fame. It's not called the NFL Hall
of Fame. It's like it's the Basketball Hall of Fame,
not the NBA Hall of Fame.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
Yes, Mark, Yeah, I wonder what Reggie White's stats look
like combining his USFL stats along with his NFL stats,
because wasn't he Obviously he was dominant in.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
The dominant everywhere went. Paulie and I were talking about
the Super Bowl when he played for the Packers, when
Desmond Howard won the MVP, and he's he was in
the backfield the entire game. If you want to pick now,
I know Desmond had a couple of if he had
a kickoff return, he had a punt return that set
up I think a score. Reggie White was unbelievable. He
(45:46):
had this one move that Bowl rush and he would
just you know, it was a hump a club and
he would just throw these you know, three hundred pound
linemen out of the way. He dominated, He true dominated.
That game should have been mvpick. He set the tone, Yes.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
Mark, Reggie White has the most impressive like play I've
ever seen when he tosses Larry Allen. Everyone YouTube, google it,
go on your Twitter machine and look up Reggie White
tossing the strongest man in the NFL, Larry Allen.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yes, Yes, a guy who players would get the Larry
Allen flu because they didn't want to face him, the
Dallas Cowboy tackle. And Reggie White he might have been underrated.
He might have been underrated, if that's possible. Yeah, pung
Reggie Right.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
White was first team All Pro at twenty five and
at age thirty seven, and a bunch of times in between.
He had one hundred and ninety eight career sex secks.
If you throw in his twenty six and a half,
you're at two twenty four and a half. He'd be
like Reggie White.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
But he was so much more than just that. Because
it's like me and Joe Green. They they demanded double
team and really you had to know where they were
on the field. Those are two of the most dominant
players that I ever now. I saw Lawrence Taylor obviously,
but Reggie and me and Joe Green, they were just different.
(47:19):
There is and you know, Reggie was such a peaceful guy,
but he didn't play that way Me and Joe Green,
peaceful guy, he didn't play that way. Lawrence Taylor was
kind of Lawrence Taylor on the field and off the field.
He kind of he had a different speed limit than
everybody else there but God, Reggie White, damn unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
Yes, you're right, because I think we automatically say Lawrence
Taylor when you say the greatest defensive player ever, Reggie
White should probably be in that. And I saw, like
the end maybe the Packers REGGI White, and I didn't
know about how dominant he was in Philadelphia. And then
what free agency stir he calls when he came.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
When he went to Green Bay said, God told him
to go to green Bay? Good choice? Is that where
you go? Can I get his second opinion? God? I
mean it's cold there. But he had played in Philadelphia.
But when he went to Green Bay that kind of
changed free agency, at least that's what I remember. It's like, Wow,
(48:21):
you know you're gonna go where you want to go,
what's best for you, And it was best for Reggie White.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Yeah, Paulie, we're watching Reggie White clips and there's a
play where Chris Carter tries to block him. He gets
in some type of position where he has to block
Reggie White. It looks like you ever play sports with
your nephews and the big uncle throws some people around
the yard. Yeah, poor Chris Carter, who's seems like a
pretty strong dude is getting manhandled, and that's being.
Speaker 5 (48:47):
Just short of putting him over his shoulder, like that
kind of thing thrown in a pool.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Yeah, like that's where you go. If you're Reggie White,
you go, Chris, you don't want to do this, Chris,
you don't want let him go. Yeah, you don't want
to do this. All right, let me take a break.
So the official stats they going to try to combine
all of those and Josh Gibson would be the big
winner here. And Josh he died. I think he had
(49:16):
a either brain tumor stroke when he was around thirty
five or thirty six. But he was considered on par
with any catcher I ever played the game, if not
better than any catcher in the history of the game.
And also, you know, when you think about breaking the
color barrier, Satchel Page was too old. You want that
(49:36):
player who's leaving the negro leagues to succeed, so then
you have more players to follow, And so you're picking
somebody talent, age, and also temperament, because Jackie Robinson had
all of those. Josh Gibson had the talent, didn't have
the temperament, and Satchel Page was too old at the time,
and Jackie put up obviously with a lot, had to
(49:58):
have the correct temperament to just be able to kind
of compartmentalize what was going on, even when his teammates
didn't even like him. So I wish Buck O'Neill were
alive today. Buck O'Neill one of my favorite people I
ever interviewed, and he spoke on behalf of so many
of these players from the Negro leagues that we didn't
get to see. And he's the one that got some
(50:19):
of these players into the Baseball Hall of Fame. He
has to be smiling today, is he in the whole thing?
I think he finally got in for contributions, OK, and
I worked hard with that. There's no credit for me.
I don't want that, I'm saying. I remember telling the
commissioner that this has to it. It's an injustice with
(50:39):
contributions to the game. His contribution is being that scrapbook
to tell everybody about these players that he played with
and against in the Negro leagues and that they got
into the Hall of Fame. And I I'm glad that
that happened. Took a while, but what a wonderful man,
You are listening to The Dan Patrick Show on Fox
Sports Radio. It's our one on this Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Come on in, stay awhile Dan and the Dan at
Dan Patrick Show recap the basketball last night. Hockey last night,
another overtime game, Panthers beating the Rangers. Time the series
to two games of peace. Stars at the Oilers tonight.
Game four, and we will have a Game five in
the Western Conference Finals, says the timberwill speak the MAVs
(00:28):
by five. The MAVs go up three games to one.
Now the series goes to Minneapolis and eight seven to
seven to three. DP Show email ADDRESSDPA Danpatrick dot com,
Twitter handle at dp show. Good morning. If you're watching
on Peacock, thank you for downloading the app. That's our
streaming service and our radio affiliates around the country. As always,
stat of the Day brought to you by Panini America.
(00:49):
The official trading cards of The Dan Patrick Show, and
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(01:11):
buying should be play of the day, out of the day,
poll question, all of that forthcoming. I don't know if
it's breaking news, but it's being treated as such. Lebron
James's son, Bronnie James, will be in the NBA Draft.
Today was the deadline for him if he wanted to
go back to college. And I never heard any rumblings
of maybe going to Arkansas with John Caliperi also Ducane
(01:35):
with a connection with Lebron James there, maybe going back
to USC, maybe going to SMU where Andy Enfield, who
is the USC coach, is now the head coach. He
is going into the draft right now, rated as the
fifty fourth best prospect. And I want to talk to
Chris Haynes from Bleacher Report also TNT. He's working the
(01:56):
Western Conference finals and I want to ask him about
you know, what's going on with Rich Paul is Lebron's agent,
and it feels like they're trying to place Bronnie James.
They're letting teams know as if they have the power here,
they're in control. This isn't a high school recruit picking
(02:17):
his college. But you get the feeling that Lebron James's
camp and his agent Rich Paul, are saying to teams
he's going to pick where he wants to play or
who's going to draft him. Well, it's the Lakers. That's
where you would want him to go, and Lebron would
want him to go there. Everybody stays in Los Angeles,
(02:37):
Lebron then will be able to get his new contract
and then he'll still be a Laker. And you know,
Rich Paul slipped maybe it was on purpose that Lebron
is a free agent now and that I think brought
a little attention there to a situation we thought, no,
it's a mere formality. He's going to opt back in
(02:57):
or get his new contract and stay with the Lakers.
So just something to keep an eye on that Lebron
James's son is going to stay in the draft and
basically telling teams, hey, he's not going to be a
guy you're going to put down in the G League.
He's going to play. We want to make sure he
has developed, we want to make sure there's a financial commitment.
All of these things for a guy who didn't even
(03:18):
average five points a game in college. This is really
unheard of. But then there's one Bronnie James here until
Bronnie's brother comes into the NBA, and then they probably
try to do the same thing as lebron be forty
five years of age trying to dictate this. Yes, Paul, it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Almost has apples and oranges and Eli Manningfield to it
while being a second round pick, not the number one overall,
the father who has a lot of juice and the
agent who had a lot of juice manipulating the system
to try to get their son in a certain place.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, but Eli was the number one overall pick. Yeah, Bronnie,
I don't know if he can play in the NBA.
And everybody chooses their words carefully and they're like, oh,
you know, he's got a great upside. He understands the game.
He's physical, he's a good defender, got a good shot.
I mean, okay, there's a lot of guys who have that,
(04:11):
a lot of guys who have a whole lot more
than that. So I look at this two different ways.
He's Ronnie James, and he could be successful in the
NBA and still be a failure to people if he averages.
Let's say ten points a game, that'd be a failure.
Let's say he played for ten years, that would be
(04:33):
a failure to people. But also he's getting attention because
his name. If his name was, you know, Ronnie Smith,
no one would care. But it's Ronnie James. He's got
to have an inordinate amount of pressure on him when
he gets to the NBA, because we're going to go, Okay,
what are you going. Let me see what you got.
(04:54):
Let me see when you're playing against the pros. If
you couldn't play well at a high level, you know
in the past twelve now you're going to go to
the NBA. You know this is there's going to be
a bright spotlight on him.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Now.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
By all accounts, he's handled himself quite well, and even
everything he went through at USC, I was hoping he'd
play one more year in college just to see if
he does develop. And there's late bloomers. We see this
all the time with players. Maybe he is a late bloomer.
Maybe he's going to be one of those eighth ninth
(05:27):
player off the bench, you know, be able to play
some minutes, quality minutes, Maybe be a guy who plays defense,
runs the point, backup point guard. I don't know if
he's a starter, but I watch USC games, not highlights.
I watched games this year, and usually Marvin and I
would you know, communicate back and forth because I would say,
(05:47):
you know, are you watching? And then there were times
when I'd watch USC play and I didn't even know
he was on the floor. But then he would have
these moments and maybe he gets a fair shot here,
maybe more than a fair shot because of his last day.
I just I would hope to tamp down some of
the expectations that are going to be there because he's
(06:08):
not going to be able to achieve. Like Michael Jordan's kids.
I mean, they played in college, but they didn't play
at a high level, didn't get to the NBA. But
even talk of you know, if Mike said, hey, I
want to play with you know, one of my sons
in the NBA, somebody probably would have made that happen.
But Lebron has made it his mission that, you know,
before he exit stage left, he's going to play with
(06:31):
his son in the NBA. Yes, Mark, The.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
One thing me and you got from watching USC games
is that Isaiah Collier is a baller. Yes, we're like oh,
Bronnie James. Okay, anyway about Isaiah Colley. That's all we
talked about when we used to text.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yes, because that guy was bringing it every time. And
you're like, if if that was Bronnie doing that, then
people would go, oh, first pick. Yeah, I'm gonna he's
gonna because this isn't a great NBA draft, so factor
that in. They're trying to get covered here. The mothership
is like, can we get clicks? Yeah? How about we
(07:06):
just focus on Brownie James. That's it. I mean, Reed
Shepherd from Kentucky. I ain't gonna happen. A couple of
Yukon players that ain't gonna happen. There's no buzz here.
And here's Bronnie is the name. Whether he goes in
the first round or second round, I mean, he's gonna
get drafted. The question is who takes him? And you
(07:30):
know how much power does he have? Yeah? See, there
are a few.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
Things in this business more difficult than pumping the brakes?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Is that really like what we do? Yes?
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Just look at Anthony Edwards last two weeks. He was
the next Michael Jordan by far, the closest thing we've
ever seen to Michael drorid this is it, and we're
watching it from the very beginning of well, he can't
win in the play, look at it. He's gonna get swept.
And they say, hey, look at he have the game.
He put the team on his back list. It is
a roller coaster ride, and he doesn't get the benefit
of the doubt of like, hey, guys, don't compare him
(08:01):
to his dad.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Okay, his dad's a totally separate player. He's his own person. Whatever.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
It's kind of what this business is now, is I know?
But I am and Brian Jeans is caught up in
that for sure.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
I know. I'm old, old school. And that's why when
as soon as those comparisons with Michael Jordan, I said,
he doesn't want it, he never asked for it, and
he can't live up to that right now, nobody can.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
The road of the NBA is littered with the bodies
of my former Michael Jordan's's and this dude doesn't want
it either.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
No, and he's a really good player. He's not Michael Jordan.
But with that rush to judgment like, oh, we gotta
who's he remind you of? It's like when when Keith
Van Horn came into the NBA. They go, man, he's
just like Larry Bird. I go, no, he's not. No, no,
he's white. And that's where the comparisons end. He's huh man,
(08:56):
when you have a white guy who can shoot three
reminds me of Dirk Navitzk. No, no, no, Brad Lohas
is not Dirk Navitzky. Watch it.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I don't know. I just came to mind the band. Yes, yes,
but get ready for it, because that's what the draft
is going to be about. And uh, I hope he
gets an opportunity to just play. It's not going to happen.
But this is the father in me. And this is
somebody with forty years of experience of witnessing all of
(09:32):
this in all of these sports where this guy is
the next, and I always say no, no, nobody's the next.
We want to make them the next. They're not. You
forge your own path there. That's the beauty of sports.
There's nobody like certain players, and there never will be.
There'll never be another Tiger Woods. Somebody can swing like him,
(09:55):
hit like him, even look like him, they won't be
Tiger Woods. There's not another Nicholas I mean down through history,
there's not another of all these great players. The only
one who's close with Michael Jordan was Kobe because Kobe
was same size and modeled his game, studied. He wanted
(10:15):
to be Mike, and that's as close as we ever got.
But he still wasn't Mike.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
All right?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Eight seven seven three DP show email address dpat dan
Patrick dot com, Twitter handle a DP show. It's like
watching Caitlin Clark last night. I said, maybe she's going
to average twenty to ten, that would be a great season. Four. Well,
she had thirty last night. They lost again. They're not
a good team, and she's averaging sixteen and seven and
we're going, uh okay, all right, and I liken her too.
(10:44):
And here's the comparison that will be out of left field,
but follow me on this. Barry Sanders' final year at
Oklahoma State nineteen eighty eight eleven games. He rushed for
twenty six hundred yards and he had thirty seven rushing touchdowns.
So that was one year. Barry Sanders gets drafted Detroit Lions.
(11:06):
Next season, he plays fifteen games, he rushes for fourteen
hundred yards, and he has fourteen rushing touchdowns. Is that
a disappointment, Well, it's just reality. He was unbelievable. He
could have rushed for three thousand yards at Oklahoma State.
He had twenty six hundred yards rushing and thirty seven
(11:29):
rushing touchdowns in eleven games. Gets to the NFL and like, okay,
well that's the reality. Caitlin Clark is dealing with the
reality of the WNBA. She's not failing, it's just your expectation.
She's not going to average twenty seven a game, not
anytime soon. And when Diana Tarassi warned everybody and everybody's
(11:53):
like a hater. No, Diana Tarossi was giving you the truth.
It is tough. Yeah, remember how great Reggie Bush was
at USC And we're like, ah, Lee, we've never seen
anybody like get to the NFL. We're like, uh, all right,
he's okay. That's what being a professional does. They get paid,
(12:16):
they're not going to class, they don't have a side job.
Their job is to be great at what they do,
and that could be guarding you, scoring on you, being physical.
They're professional. Barry Sanders wasn't a letdown his first year,
and watching Caitlin Clark last night while she put up thirty.
(12:36):
She's got to learn how to play a professional game now,
because in college you get away with a lot of things.
But she's learning. And if you watch when she started
to where she is now, she's got to learn to
move without the ball a whole lot better. She's got
to understand that first piece of contact that she gets.
Try to avoid that if you can, but if you
(12:57):
get it, then try to utilize that contact. But she
can still shoot, she can still pass a lot of turnovers.
But you know they're all learning here. I mean, what
was Troy Aikman's rookie year? What was Peyton Manning? What
was John Elway? Some of the greatest you fail and
then you learn. The great ones learn, They pick up something,
(13:19):
they add something, they add something again the next year.
But watching Caitlyn Clark, she hasn't failed. She's learning. But
I think people look at this like, Okay, this is
all the hype. Let's see what she does in her career.
Is she going to be as good as Diana Tarrossi?
She can only hope to be as good as her
or some of the legends who played. There are some
(13:41):
wonderful players. We're just noticing the WNBA now at least
a lot of people are because of Caitlyn Clark. She's
bringing a lot of power, a lot of attention, a
lot of notoriety, and when you watch, you realize there
are some really good talented players, yes, Marva.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
And I think Diana Trossi was speaking from experience like
she was Kaitlin Clark. Not at that level, but she
was the best player in college basketball, and she's the
number one pick in the WNBA Draft. She knows what
Kayln Clark was about to go through. So she's telling her, Hey,
the stuff I could do at you can I cannot
do that at this level right away? And people will
this guy, you know, So it was, hey.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Don't like the truth. She wasn't being unfair. I mean,
if you know Diana Trossi, you've met her, you listened
to her. She just tells you the truth like she's
not trying to sugarcoat anything. She was being honest. And
I think when we get to these expectations, and look,
Ronnie James is gonna face this. He's not as talented
as Barry Sanders was in college or Kaitlin Clark, but
(14:43):
the expectation level has to be modified because if not
You're gonna everybody's gonna say the same thing about him,
and it's not fair to him. And maybe you don't care.
I do because I look at this and you want
somebody to at least have an opportunity a fair Maybe
he's getting it more of a more than his fair
(15:03):
share of a fair shake because of who he is.
But I just I'm just bracing you for what it's
going to be like in the coming weeks when we
get ready for the NBA Draft. What's Lebron going to do?
What are the Lakers going to do? What if Phoenix
drafts him, would Lebron go the You know, it's just
going to be a jigsaw puzzle and there's going to
(15:23):
be a couple of pieces that are left out. It's
going to be a mess. But that's sort of what
we've embraced now in today's sports world.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Yeah, Pauline, going back to Diana Tarassi, Like you said,
she was All American superstar coming out of yukon her
rookie year in the WNBA share with seventeen points and
four assists, very nice numbers one rookie the year. Two
years later she was averaging twenty six. Yeah, drastic improvement.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, but you know you're I'm watching Caitlin Clark. She's
got to get a little bit more of a physical,
bigger she's got a you know, because it's a long run,
and plus she's been playing basketball since what's September. It's
been a run all the way through and she needs
some help. You watch that team. There's a reason why
they had the number one pick. They're not good. They
(16:08):
didn't trade to get the number one pick. They earned it.
They were terrible. Yes, Mark, I.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Wasn't gonna say anything.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
I was right with you completely, like, yeah, I saw
them play and I was like, whoa, I see why.
And also it seems like she's not shooting to try
to ingratiate herself, you know, amongst her teammates, Like you
know what, I don't want to shoot twenty five times
even though I probably should.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, I said that she would be more of a
passer facilitator her first year. Learn the game, learn your teammates,
earn their trust, and then she's gonna have a couple
of breakout games. But if you're going in and going man,
she's a disappointment, then you don't really follow sports because
it's a journey. It's not I got a referendum on
this player. But after three games, five games, ten games,
(16:55):
hopefully she's playing a long time.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
then catch all of our shows at foxsports Radio dot
com and within the iHeartRadio app search FSR to listen live.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Two NBA Insiders podcasting twice a week to plug you
right into the NBA grape.
Speaker 6 (17:14):
Fine, all happening in only one place. This League Uncut,
the new NBA podcast with me Chris.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Haynes and me Mark Stein join us.
Speaker 6 (17:24):
As we team up to expound on everything we're covering.
Hearing and Chason.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Listen to This League Uncut with Chris Haynes and Mark Stein.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
See would you update the poll results? Then we'll bring
in our buddy, Chris Haynes.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
How many more games do you think the Minnesota Timberwolves
will win this series?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Okay? Zero, one, two, or three?
Speaker 5 (17:50):
Right now, about forty percent of the audience have one,
which is a pretty easy answer. Thirty thirty four percent
have zero three games thirteen.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
That's pretty good. That's pretty optimistic. Chris Haynes, senior NBA
insider for TNT Bleacher Report, part of the Western Conference Finals.
Al Cast Untrue TV. You got Vince Carter and Adam Lefko,
got a few Beaumani Jones is on there and also
he has a basketball podcast with Mark Stein hashtag this
League uncut Always good to see it. Chris Hope or
(18:23):
false Hope? After last night's win by the Timberwolves, Well.
Speaker 6 (18:28):
DP, I think you have to go off of history,
and history will tell us no team has come back
from O three deficit. So with that being said, I
have to say is false hope?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Okay? What changed last night in your opinion? And does
that continue to change in game? You know, the next
game here in Minnesota.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Well, there were a couple of things that changed, but
number one was Carl Anthony Towns, you know, showed up
on the offensive end, played efficiently, and I think if
you look at his game and how he operated in
that game, he didn't shoot his first three till later
in the game. He was attacking and getting downhill, getting
to the paint and finishing. Now he was in foul trouble,
(19:10):
but offensively he was very effective and efficient and that
helped Anthony Edwards, who are the last couple of games,
is trying to trying to been exerting his energy and
so in his offensive prowess. But he had a sidekick
the other night, and so I think that's what helped.
Now the question is can Kat continue to do that
because this series is just not it's just hadn't been
(19:33):
a good series for him thus far.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
A topic of conversation on the most dynamic, best scoring
backcourt in history. Do you buy into the Kyrie Luca
that's the best scoring backcourt in NBA history?
Speaker 6 (19:49):
He always do this DP the best scoring backcourt duo.
I will say that, you know, off the top of
my head, they're probably the most talented offensive scoring duo.
You know. You know, we heard what Draymond said about
(20:10):
about his guys, talking about Stephan Clay, But I would
say skill wise, Luca and Kyrie pound for pound or
better offensively, Look, I would like to hold off and
wait until at least they get a championship. They get
a championship, then we can talk. You know, we had
a there was a somebody gave us a question on
(20:31):
our past last night, asking if this win, if the
if the Dallas Mavericks won last night. If that was
se ment Kyrie's legacy, I'm like seeming this legacy and
what we talked this to the conference finals, like what
can we stock? Can we hold off police? Can we
get to the very end? Now, if you get a championship,
we can talk talk like Luca, he's arguably arguably the
(20:56):
best player in the game, but if he gets a championship,
you know, winning the championship is always favor the best
player in that series. I remember when Dwayne Wade won
his championships and there were arguments that if he was
the best player you some will say yes, some say no,
But you want a championship. You couldn't deny that. So
I like to get to the end of the road
(21:17):
before we start talking this stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I've been talking patients this morning with our expectation level,
whether it's Caitlin Clark or Brownie James. Having perspective here
and forty years of watching young players come in and
they get chewed up. Sometimes sometimes we give them a
little bit more rope, not anymore. We want immediate gratification.
(21:40):
Whether it's a coach in Phoenix or la Hey, you
could be one and done or two years and done.
Our star athletes, we want them that you're getting paid,
We want to see you play. You better be playing
at a high level. When did it change that we
didn't allow almost a grace period to allow these athletes
to kind of get their legs.
Speaker 6 (22:02):
I think social media has played a part in that,
where everybody has a voice, so there's more takes, there's
more commentary. Everybody feels like they have to say something.
You know, look, look deep. I think what it is
is that you know this this generation today, they're in
the microwave age. You know, they want to pop a
meal in the microwave and they want and if it's
heating for longer than a minute, they don't want it.
(22:24):
They do their attention span is lost. But you know what,
there's something there's something great about putting the meal in
the crock pop or putting that bad boy in the
oven for eight hours allowed it to simmer. Then when
it comes out that meat is just falling off the bone.
Or if you like the barbecue like me, put in
the smoker, putting that smoker for eight, ten, twelve hours.
Take let it take your time. You wrap it up,
(22:46):
wrap it up, you put your you know, if you
got some ribs or whatever, you put your your honey
down there on the meat, You put your your brown
your brown sugar, and you just wrap it up and
foil put it back in that bad boy another four
five hours and then it comes off of a man.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
You're too young to have this kind of perspective. Let's
guess how old Chris Haynes is. Okay, tod, I'm gonna
go with you. Chris Haynes is thirty nine, Okay, I
was going thirty eight Seaton.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
I think you guys are being rude.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
He's thirty six, all right, Marvin.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
That hairline is beautiful. But you know he og though,
so I'm gonna say forty two. He looks like he
was like two years ahead of me in high school.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
All right.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
His buck O'Neil would say, good black, don't crack, sure,
don't uh? Okay, all right, Pauline.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
This is really tough. His shoe game forty years old?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Even all right, forty years old.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
Even shoe game. You know, I always keep coming.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
He always got him close by. All right, here we go,
Chris Haynes bleacher or TNT is.
Speaker 6 (23:54):
I believe Marlon got it? Forty two?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Wow? I'm on now, all right, and he still got
to I'll be.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Forty three to end August August thirty.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
First, all right, help me understand what's going on with
Rich Paul with did he slip up and say Lebron's
a free agent? Or was that premeditated? And it's and
how is he orchest He's almost trying to orchestrate where
Bronnie's going to go, as if they have a choice
where he's going to go. It's not like you're a
(24:24):
high school athlete picking your college. But man, I get
the feeling that Rich Paul is at least presenting this
to other teams that we're going to dictate where he's
going to go, and if you don't abide by us,
we don't want And I don't know what those I
don't know what he could do if a team drafts Bronnie,
what are you going to do? Can't go back to college?
So what do you think? What do you what's Rich
(24:46):
Paul's game here?
Speaker 6 (24:48):
Well? I think first I'm gonna ask a couple, you know, questions,
a couple of ways DP. So first of all, all
I think what he wants is Briannie to be drafted
first and foremost, you know, when you get drafted, it's
not DP. Back the day, you know, I wasn't covering
the league back in the day, but you know, in
the nineties, I remember, remember when second round picks DP.
Remember most second round picks didn't make the team. They
(25:10):
didn't get guaranteed contracts back then. That it's changed over
the last ten years. Second round picks are getting three
four year guaranteed deals. You know, they're getting commitment, they're
getting time and resources invested into them. So Rich Paul's
statement to me about him not him not he's not
going to allow Brinnie James to sign a two way contract,
(25:32):
and people took that as off he gonna try to
keep Brinnie from going to the G League. No, it's
not that. It's that he would rather Brinnie get drafted,
which means the team is showing a commitment and he
could get three four years guaranteed money under his belt.
And also about the dictating, I think, you know, I
think basically, if there is any dictating, I think the
(25:52):
only dictating is as of right now, only power he
has in dictating is trying to tell teams in the
form of the league that two way would not be considered.
So if you're really thinking about if you're really thinking
about having the chance of getting Brownie's going to take
one of your draft picks. I think that's what he
was trying to get to the masses.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Okay, but what if a team drafts Himan says, hey,
we're going to send you down to the G League, Which.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
That's fine, No, that's fine. Drafted, he's still getting a
three year minimum guaranteed. Yeah, And that's the investment. That's
the commitment. You know, when you get a two way,
you know, that's a year deal. Then you know, you
play fifty you play forty something games in the NBA,
forty something games in the G League. If things work out,
you know, they can move on after a year, you know.
(26:38):
So that's the difference between a two way deal and
then getting drafted, where that's actually a commitment that a
team is putting into you and they're going to give
you a three year, four year guaranteed deal. And so
that's where Rich Paul is trying. That's the direction Rich
Paul is trying to steer his.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Climbing Lebron going to re sign with the Lakers, DP.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
I have a hard time believe even he's going to
go anywhere else and fatigue. I'm sorry to answer you
a question about the slip up. It wasn't a slip up.
I don't know. What I will say is a lot
of players and agents feel like if their client has
a player option, they view it as being a free
(27:19):
agent because they had that option to pick it up
or not. But you're technically not a free agent until
you decline that player option. So I don't know. If
people saw the alltcast, I immediately as soon as Rich
Paul said, you know, Blond's a free agent, I had
to look. So if you saw, if you look at
the autcast, look at the replay, he says, Lebron is
a free agent. So I look down, because you know,
this is my job, it's my job to stay up
(27:40):
on top of this. I look down and start googling.
I'm like, when did Lebron announced he was declined the
player option? And I couldn't find it nowhere? So then
I'm waiting, and I got my head back up, and
I waited to Rich Paul to finished, and then I
you know, when they interjecting my hold on, you mean
he's decline that player option then he was like, Chris,
you know, I'm not going to negotiate. We'll get to
(28:02):
that down the road.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Are the Lakers waiting to announce their head coach until
the finals are over because that coach might be working
the finals?
Speaker 6 (28:12):
Yeah, I would be very surprised if their next head
coaches anybody but JJ Reddick. Everything that I'm hearing is
JJ Reddick. Ad From what I know, he's doing some
background calling some candidates, some assistant coaching candidates who might
be able to join his staff or might not be
able to join his staff, And so yeah, I'm pretty
(28:36):
I'm pretty positive it'll be JJ.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So you have the most experienced NBA player in history
coached by the least experienced head coach in the NBA.
Speaker 6 (28:47):
Yeah, what we've seen coaches getting those type of opportunities.
Steve Nash got a great opportunity as his first head
coaching gig. Jason Kidd did the same thing, Derek Fisher.
You know, we're starting to see a trend.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Steve Kerr.
Speaker 6 (29:03):
Yeah, Steve Kerr, I mean you were looking at you
see what Steve Kerr turned out to be. Look at
Jason Kidd. He's a win away from leading this team
to the NBA Finals, so it has some success. But
that's a tough job to take. It's just tough job
to take. I mean it's Lebron James. I understand JJ
and Lebron get along, well, they have a podcast. That's
just a tough job to accept. You know, under Rod
(29:26):
Polinka's tenure, he is fired. Let me see, Luke Walton fired,
Frank Vogel, he's fired Darvin Ham. So he's safe. So
if anybody's going to get some blame, it's going to
be the head coach. That's why. And there's high expectations
with that team, as there should be anytime you have
(29:47):
a team of Lebron James. On top of that being
the Los Angeles Lakers.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Celtics waiting for the winner of this series. But let's
say the Celtics win the title. How will history treat
this year's Boston Celtics.
Speaker 6 (30:00):
I'm thinking a treat on favorably. I mean, they had
a phenomenal season. They were the most dominant team for
the entire eighty two game season. Uh you know, I
know we like to talk about the path that the
team's a team takes, but all you can do is
play against the opponent that's right across from you. So
I don't think we're going to diminish them now. You know,
when you start having debates about who's the best teams,
(30:22):
I don't know that this Boss Celtics team will be
up there. But I will say this, I definitely would
like to see the Dallas and Average in the Boston
Selfish meet in the finals. I just think of to
have some interesting subplots going on, make it more interesting,
and maybe that can boost her up. If the Celtics
were to win the title, maybe that can boost her up.
(30:44):
Just how relevant and dominant this team as being. If
we if we can have a good a good series
first and foremost, and then have some drama go with it,
yeah I can help.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
But imagine if Boston doesn't win the title.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
That's a problem. That is as problem down list we
I've covered this Celtics last four years since they've been
on their championship run, and you know, they can disappoint you.
You know, the moment you think they've got it all
figured figured out, the moment you think they got those
turnovers out of the way, the turnovers come back, those
(31:19):
shot the shot selection, you know, gets horrible. Again, So
they have a tendency to I don't know what, I
don't want to say, play down, but they have a
tendency to not play to the level expectations. So if
they were to lose like this would be a big
blemish on the Celtics in general. I'm talking about just
this whole team, the whole core cast. They have to
(31:41):
get it done. It's their championship to lose.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Great to talk to you, Thanks for joining us as always, Chris.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
Hey, I appreciate all those that said mid thirties, late thirties.
I'll take it.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
That's Chris Hayne's senior NBA insider for TNT Bleacher Report
and part of the Western Conference finds alt Cast airing
on True TV. I got Vince Carter there, Adam Lefko,
Beaumani Jones on there. All right, we'll take a break.
We'll get some more phone calls coming up back after this.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Be sure to catch the live edition of The Dan
Patrick Show weekdays at nine am Eastern six am Pacific
on Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio WAP.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Final Hour in this Wednesday is it Patience Wednesday, Perspective Wednesday,
trying to add some perspective here today.
Speaker 5 (32:31):
I was trying to find a word because I don't
know how much we love alliteration, a W word that
would go with Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Like wisdom Wednesday. Oh, wisdom Wednesday. Damnit.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
See I've been spending two hours thinking about that. Why
can you just ask me lesson learned? Yeah, that you
know what that is? Then wisdom?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, thank you, thank you. Paulie hates a literation for
somebody whose name is Paul Papps amongst the reasons. Yes,
I think that's why. Yeah, I think that's why. But
did they call you pep a little bit? I got
a lot. Yeah, it didn't really bother me that much. Yeah,
of course, is that sticking with you later?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, I'm completely over.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
I'm over.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
I'm over.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
First day of kindergarten app ruined it whole life.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
I was a little guy too, I couldn't really defend myself.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Kids can be so brutal. Oh my gosh, that mean
worst they are, and they go they go right for
the jugular. I mean they wanted to hurt a little bit,
and they make fun of you. Eight seven to seven
three DP show email address Dpadanpatrick dot com, Twitter handle
ADP show. Make sure you check out our YouTube channel.
Also uh Fox Sports Radio, iHeartRadio. Thank you for all
(33:38):
the great things that you do for us and Peacock,
our streaming partner. Download the app if you haven't done so.
Stars Oilers Game four tonight Timberwolves beat the MAVs. Is
it hope or false hope? MAVs go up three games
to one. Caitlin Clark had thirty in a loss. And
baseball has revamped its statistical history. And the man who
(34:00):
is responsible for this, he is the official historian of
Major League Baseball, John Thorn, who joins us. John, explain
what you've been doing and how long you've been doing
it to get to this point today.
Speaker 7 (34:12):
Of course, Dan, first of all, to indicate that many
hands have made like the work I am, by no
means the most important person in this entire scenario. It's
people like Larry Lester and Gary Ashwell and Kevin Johnson
who have been the diggers, who have been reading black
(34:32):
newspapers on microfilm and microfiche for decades, and now some
of that has been digitized. But it is the research
effort that we memorialized with the Committee to Review Negro
League Statistics, whereby we set some policies for leaderboards, in
(34:53):
particular single season leader boards and career leader boards that
have upturned the baseball world.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Okay, do you have to have for something to be validated?
You have to have a box score?
Speaker 7 (35:10):
Absolutely, absolutely, you have to have a score. Okay, because
as you know, baseball is a double entry accounting system,
whereby every out made at the plate is reflected in
an out made in the field, either a pitcher catcher
strikeout or a grounder or short that's an assist for
the shortstop and a put out for the first basement.
(35:33):
Absence that balance, and if we started to intrude anecdotal
evidence into the database, the balance of MLB's history since
eighteen seventy six would be destroyed.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
What has changed as far as individual as far as
an individual like Josh Gibson or an individual category season,
give us the statistical fallout from this.
Speaker 7 (35:58):
The leaderboards will have changed. And Josh Gibson is the
single season leader in batting average and slugging and ops.
But he's already been memorialized in bronze at the Baseball
Hall of Fame like many of his others. But there
are twenty three hundred players, some of whom were in
(36:20):
for a cup of coffee or an inconsequential season in
a league that didn't last very long. And it's these players,
these individuals whose families can now point to their name
in the record book and say he was a Major leaguer.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
How many home runs did Josh Gibson officially hit? Officially?
Speaker 7 (36:43):
I believe the number is one seventy four in league play.
Is Hall of Fame plaque reads that he hit nearly
eight hundred in some combination of league and independent ball.
But independent ball is barnstorming ball, and you never know
what the quality of the opposition was, whether it's semi pro,
(37:04):
whether it's amateur. Because the Negro leagues, with their shortened seasons,
their shortened league seasons, were compelled to play lots of games,
more so than MLB in order to keep the revenue
stream flowing.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Will there be asterisks in the record books.
Speaker 7 (37:25):
There will be no asterisks, just as the prospect of
an asterisk go along inside Roger Maris's sixty one homers
way back when never was actualized. It is MLB policy
that there is one continuous record from eighteen seventy six
(37:47):
to the present day, and not a single statistic bears
an asterisk or a footnote.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
And it's not just the Negro leagues. There are other
leagues that are incorporated in this whole process.
Speaker 7 (38:02):
Sure, there are defunct major leagues, and many of our
listeners will not have heard of the American Association as
a ten year major eighteen eighty two to eighteen ninety one,
or the Union Association of eighteen eighty four, or the
Players League of eighteen ninety or the Federal League of
nineteen fourteen and fifteen. But these leagues were deemed to
(38:23):
be major league caliber back in nineteen sixty nine, and
all of those players' records are in the database.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
He is the official historian of Major League Baseball, John Thorne.
That's a pretty good title there. Do you have a
business card? I do have a business nice I like that.
Speaker 7 (38:41):
I sometimes had it to my wife.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
What's the coolest thing in your library?
Speaker 6 (38:46):
There?
Speaker 7 (38:48):
The coolest thing might be the oil painting of Jim Boughten,
my pal, the Knickerbocker pennant, which was the first flag
over the Knickerbocker Baseball Club clubhouse in eighteen fifty five.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
You remember when Ball four came out with Jim Bowten
if that came out now, that would be like nobody
would even think twice. But back then in nineteen seventy,
it's like, oh my gosh, here's an athlete who is
spilling on his teammates and what it's like on the road.
Speaker 7 (39:22):
And it was an athlete's own voice. It was not
a ghost written job as so many of the player
autobiographies or the Christy Matthewson books, the King Kelly books,
the cap ans and books, they were all ghosted.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
It's great to talk to you, John, Congratulations on the
process and everybody else in this. Did Babe Ruth actually
call his shot in the World Series?
Speaker 7 (39:48):
No, there is some eight millimeter footage of the Babe
and he's pointing to the Cubs clubhouse where he was
being razzed. And if you view this footage from the
wrong perspective, you think he's pointing to center field, but
he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
It was a joke for Ruth too. Oh he kind
of ruined that story there. John, Thanks for joining us,
and again, congratulations to everybody involved in this. My pleasure, Dan,
that's John Thorne, the official historian of Major League Baseball.
It's a big title there. Now I'm wondering. Let's say
(40:29):
we looked at other sports there, ABA NBA combine that?
Speaker 6 (40:33):
Right?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Can you look at Canadian Football League and factor that
in with the Pro Football Hall of Fame NFL numbers?
How about USFL with herschel Walker's numbers? There? Does do
those sports get around to doing that? The ABA, I
certainly understand because of the teams they absorbed and the
(40:57):
great players that were there. How many points does doctor
J have Marvin? Do we know if PAULI do you
have that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
I got Doctor J Julius Irving having almost twelve thousand
points just in the ABA. And if you look at
a thing called Basketball Reference, which is basically the Bible
of basketball stats, they split it into ABA and NBA stats,
But then they have ABA NBA combined, so you can
look at all those stats.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
But does the Basketball Hall of Fame do they recognize
these stats so they are combined?
Speaker 3 (41:28):
I got to check that, but I believe they recognize
combined stats like Lebron James is the all time leading scorer?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Okay, but how many points does doctor J officially have? ABA?
And NBA? Checking? Because That's what I was curious about,
and I should know that I thought they factored both
of those in or eventually got around to that. Yes, Mark,
he's got thirty twenty six points, but he doesn't get
credit for thirty thousand doh. Right when Lebron was going
(41:59):
for you know, we talked about Karl Malone his record,
Kareem's record, but I didn't hear Lebron with Doctor Jay's
record getting past thirty thousand points. At least I don't
remember that, do you.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
We're checking on that one. It's unclear how they look
at it the league itself.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
And I know they had a three point shot with
the ABA, but you had so much talent you absorbed
some of those teams that you should look at those
numbers and combine those numbers, just like what we're having
with Major League Baseball. Yeah, see basketball reference.
Speaker 5 (42:30):
By the way, the original reference point for career salary game. Oh,
spent an incredible amount of time on that. Back at
the Mothership looking at Kevin Garton. Had to be two
hundred and fifty million dollars.
Speaker 6 (42:40):
Do you believe this?
Speaker 5 (42:42):
That didn't We just go through this with Caitlyn Clark
and Lynette Woodard. Yes, where there were there were Well,
she's passing Caitlyn's passing Pete Marivitch.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
But there's somebody that still has more. And I said,
Lynette Woodard played, you know, at what Kansas and she
played for the Harlem Globetrotters. It wasn't called the n
you know, women's basketball, wasn't the NC Double A. And
I said, that's that's nonsense. That Caitlin had to surpass
Lynnette Woodard. And then they finally recognized her, and rightfully,
(43:12):
so you know, she was still going against collegiate talent.
They just didn't recognize it. The NC DOUBLEA didn't. But ABA,
NBA are those numbers combined, PAULI.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
They it appears that they're not. I'm on the NBA's website,
the official NBA website, and it does not include Doctor
J's points in the ABA.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
See that's wrong.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Get to go at it.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
I I I'm trying to, I like when you're upset. Yeah,
but I look, I got to watch some ABA games
and the talent level was awesome. The game was the
ABA was like the AFL. It was fun. The NFL
was boring, you know, it was like three yards in
(43:56):
a cloud of dust. The NBA, it did have some
good players. It wasn't as exciting as the ABA ABA
was wide open shooting the three, the red, White, Blue ball.
It was great, great teams, a lot of talent. They
should count that. It's kind of a shame that they don't. Now,
I understand the CFL because you know different rules and
(44:19):
how you play in the CFL with three downs, four downs,
you know the amount of passing yards that you're going
to have in the CFL. But Warren Moon's numbers in
the CFL or Doug Flutie's numbers in the CFL, can
you incorporate that, Jim Kelly's numbers in the USFL, Herschel's
numbers in the USFL. Can you put it all under
(44:43):
one umbrella? It was professional football, and these players did
go on to have great careers in the NFL. You
know Anthony Carter when he played, I mean he had
a lot of guys that played in the USFL, Steve Young.
Can you put it under the all under one umbrella there?
(45:03):
I don't know if I don't know if pro football
would do that, but it is. It's called the Pro
Football Hall of Fame. It's not called the NFL Hall
of Fame. It's like it's the Basketball Hall of Fame,
not the NBA Hall of Fame.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
Yes, Mark, Yeah, I wonder what Reggie White's stats look
like combining his USFL stats along with his NFL stats,
because wasn't he Obviously he was dominant in.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
The dominant everywhere went. Paulie and I were talking about
the Super Bowl when he played for the Packers, when
Desmond Howard won the MVP, and he's he was in
the backfield the entire game. If you want to pick now,
I know Desmond had a couple of if he had
a kickoff return, he had a punt return that set
up I think a score. Reggie White was unbelievable. He
(45:46):
had this one move that Bowl rush and he would
just you know, it was a hump a club and
he would just throw these you know, three hundred pound
linemen out of the way. He dominated, He true dominated.
That game should have been mvpick. He set the tone, Yes.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
Mark, Reggie White has the most impressive like play I've
ever seen when he tosses Larry Allen. Everyone YouTube, google it,
go on your Twitter machine and look up Reggie White
tossing the strongest man in the NFL, Larry Allen.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yes, Yes, a guy who players would get the Larry
Allen flu because they didn't want to face him, the
Dallas Cowboy tackle. And Reggie White he might have been underrated.
He might have been underrated, if that's possible. Yeah, pung
Reggie Right.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
White was first team All Pro at twenty five and
at age thirty seven, and a bunch of times in between.
He had one hundred and ninety eight career sex secks.
If you throw in his twenty six and a half,
you're at two twenty four and a half. He'd be
like Reggie White.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
But he was so much more than just that. Because
it's like me and Joe Green. They they demanded double
team and really you had to know where they were
on the field. Those are two of the most dominant
players that I ever now. I saw Lawrence Taylor obviously,
but Reggie and me and Joe Green, they were just different.
(47:19):
There is and you know, Reggie was such a peaceful guy,
but he didn't play that way Me and Joe Green,
peaceful guy, he didn't play that way. Lawrence Taylor was
kind of Lawrence Taylor on the field and off the field.
He kind of he had a different speed limit than
everybody else there but God, Reggie White, damn unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
Yes, you're right, because I think we automatically say Lawrence
Taylor when you say the greatest defensive player ever, Reggie
White should probably be in that. And I saw, like
the end maybe the Packers REGGI White, and I didn't
know about how dominant he was in Philadelphia. And then
what free agency stir he calls when he came.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
When he went to Green Bay said, God told him
to go to green Bay? Good choice? Is that where
you go? Can I get his second opinion? God? I
mean it's cold there. But he had played in Philadelphia.
But when he went to Green Bay that kind of
changed free agency, at least that's what I remember. It's like, Wow,
(48:21):
you know you're gonna go where you want to go,
what's best for you, And it was best for Reggie White.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Yeah, Paulie, we're watching Reggie White clips and there's a
play where Chris Carter tries to block him. He gets
in some type of position where he has to block
Reggie White. It looks like you ever play sports with
your nephews and the big uncle throws some people around
the yard. Yeah, poor Chris Carter, who's seems like a
pretty strong dude is getting manhandled, and that's being.
Speaker 5 (48:47):
Just short of putting him over his shoulder, like that
kind of thing thrown in a pool.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Yeah, like that's where you go. If you're Reggie White,
you go, Chris, you don't want to do this, Chris,
you don't want let him go. Yeah, you don't want
to do this. All right, let me take a break.
So the official stats they going to try to combine
all of those and Josh Gibson would be the big
winner here. And Josh he died. I think he had
(49:16):
a either brain tumor stroke when he was around thirty
five or thirty six. But he was considered on par
with any catcher I ever played the game, if not
better than any catcher in the history of the game.
And also, you know, when you think about breaking the
color barrier, Satchel Page was too old. You want that
(49:36):
player who's leaving the negro leagues to succeed, so then
you have more players to follow, And so you're picking
somebody talent, age, and also temperament, because Jackie Robinson had
all of those. Josh Gibson had the talent, didn't have
the temperament, and Satchel Page was too old at the time,
and Jackie put up obviously with a lot, had to
(49:58):
have the correct temperament to just be able to kind
of compartmentalize what was going on, even when his teammates
didn't even like him. So I wish Buck O'Neill were
alive today. Buck O'Neill one of my favorite people I
ever interviewed, and he spoke on behalf of so many
of these players from the Negro leagues that we didn't
get to see. And he's the one that got some
(50:19):
of these players into the Baseball Hall of Fame. He
has to be smiling today, is he in the whole thing?
I think he finally got in for contributions, OK, and
I worked hard with that. There's no credit for me.
I don't want that, I'm saying. I remember telling the
commissioner that this has to it. It's an injustice with
(50:39):
contributions to the game. His contribution is being that scrapbook
to tell everybody about these players that he played with
and against in the Negro leagues and that they got
into the Hall of Fame. And I I'm glad that
that happened. Took a while, but what a wonderful man,
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