August 15, 2024 • 41 mins
Talkin' Jake is reacting to the idea MLB is considering around pitching rule changes to promote the importance of Starting Pitching! How much would a 6-Inning minimum change the game?
You can read the same article here: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40847173/mlb-rule-changes-2024-six-inning-starting-pitcher-injuries-tommy-john
Watch today's episode on YouTube HERE: https://youtu.be/WQKFupHrABU
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:50 6-Inning Minimum for SP
14:00 5-Batter Minimum for Relievers
28:15 Power Rankings REACTIONS
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Woo, Hello and welcome to Wag and Jake myself, Jake's Story,
Ellie Big Baby David Mendelssohn on Thursday, August fifteenth, Apologies,
got a little sick yesterday and trying to save it
up because we have a huge weekend. We're going to
Fanatics Fest. I'm pretty sure we're doing a live live
show on the stage from two to four before US.
(00:22):
I mean, this is Flex time Slash what happened time
Dana White UFC. I think is before us and after
US I believe is Tom Brady, Lil Wayne somewhat and Jay.
I think Brunson and Hearten.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Yeah. I had been told Brunson and heart just got
me and Maddy Mass cooking.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Them right, I bet so. I midday yesterday I just
started feeling it, whatever it was, whether Nashville tired, sick,
whatever it was, went home, rested up a little bit,
did talking next Last night different, and I still feel
a little bit little DayQuil this morning. But I'm here
for the people. I'm not gonna miss up too, so
(01:07):
it's a dayly. I appreciate you guys. We did have
some rule change discussion. It's been one of the fun
starting pitcher ones, and we got some more deats around it,
so I want to dive into that because that's what
the people love. And then I think a fun exercise.
We did power rankings on Talking Baseball. If you haven't
listened to them, go check them out, although I will
be revealing some thoughts on them, but I want to
(01:30):
go through the comments because I want to show there's
a couple comments that I was like, damn, we do
need to appreciate that more. There's a couple funny mean
ones if I'm being for real, And then I think
there were arguments on both sides for both teams that
I want to go through a few of those. But
let's start out with kind of the news from the
(01:52):
baseball world, and we know it's something they've been tinkering with,
the six inning minimum starting pitcher rule come to major
League Baseball. If you have no idea what I'm talking about,
you know there are theories, and I think I partially
agree with the theories that part of the reason baseball games,
from a discussion standpoint, have lost a little bit of
(02:14):
their luster is the lack of the starting pitcher that
used to be old timey baseball who's starting today? Or
what if I told you there was a playoff game
and it was Garrett Cole versus Justin Verlander. Like that
gets some juice going in you. I mean, even like,
like even without starting pitching quite being what it had
(02:37):
been even growing up for us, like, it's still among
the first questions that come up when you're saying, like,
let's go to the game today. That was I had
a friend tell me they were going to the Orioles
Red Sox game today, and my initial knee jerk reaction
was pitching. I didn't even ask because they're not like
(02:58):
dialed baseball wise that I was like, okay, this is
a bad question. Uh, And then I looked it up
Paveta Paveta Eflyn, which okay, that's cool to baseball losers
like us subscribe to the channel everyone, thank you. But yeah,
there's something to the beauty of the starting pitcher. I
do think with some of the rules we've already reverted
(03:19):
back just a little bit, starting pitchers are going longer. Like, yes,
there was a couple of years that you know, we
third time through the order used to end a starting
pitcher's day. You don't see that anymore. I think it
was because there was wear and tear on bullpens. I think,
I don't know. I think teams a teams that still
had a guy that could do it or two guys
(03:42):
that could do it were it was like obvious benefits.
You're you're just getting more innings in there easier, and
if you're a starting pitcher, you're kind of better unless
you're a manual class a. Uh that. Yeah, the baseball
has a way of bouncing back. That was the whole
thing with the shift. They said for years that hey,
baseball's going to adjust, we'll beat the shift, and then
(04:04):
they did it. So the Commissioner's office came in and
the infield shift. I'm ready for more bands on the shift.
I'm about it. I've said it on here before. Give
me the normal alignment when you picture players on the field.
That's going to bring more athletic defensive players back into play.
I want more doubles. Doubles are electric. Anyways, for another time.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, he can talk, we can talk shifts all day,
but it's not the rule topic of the current.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I mean, I think I'm currently in the semi minority
on that. I think people are even where we're at
with the shift rules are better, So like, I'm not
slamming the table on that.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I'm fine with opening the samples size on what we've
the rules we've got right now.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Some of the outfield shifts still pretty crazy. Some of
the infield shifts still pretty crazy. Anyways, they jumped in
on that and it's been successful for baseball. They also
jumped in on the pitch clock, which has been one
of Baseball's bigger wins in recent years. So I know,
you know there's some Lol Manfred people out there. I mean,
we had a lockout, and anyone just wants to target
a commissioner. But if they hit big on another rule,
(05:09):
like Rob Manfred, like every commissioner, Waltz is into the
Hall of Fame. But Rob Manfred's gonna be pitch clock,
save the game a little bit, shift save the game
a little bit that I think they're going to go
for another one, and why not. They've kind of been
doing well with it. So this is the sixth inning
(05:31):
double hook. Joe's McFly that they want starting pitchers to
go six innings and if you pull your starting pitcher
before that, you would lose your DH. So a couple
interesting things about it, And there are other parts of
the rule that I found out today. If they throw
one hundred pitches, they're eligible to be pulled, which that
(05:54):
would be really interesting if there's funny business involved. You
could have pictures throwing tensional balls to get to one hundred.
I don't know. I guess that's pretty deep cut into it.
If they give up four or more in runs, which
I don't know, that feels a little light just early.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
On when when we read it, it felt like in
my head like might need to be that fifth run.
But if we want to start at four unlocks it,
I'm I can be open.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
To that, open to the concept. I don't know, something
with five point one innings four and runs like that
feels like a normal start, or if they get injured obviously,
So I think if your starter makes it to the
sixth inning, your DH would be good. If it doesn't,
you lose it for the game. And you're starting to
get into pinch hitting and stuff like that, so there's
(06:46):
some perks on that side. You'd probably have a deeper
pinch hitting bench or that would be the goal, So
you could use that, Like.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
On the players Union end of things, it would probably
be on average like one more or like paid like veteran.
It'd be a job lot a player for every team.
You'd want an extra guy that you trust.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
It'd be a job. So the players would probably like that.
They think it would lead to less injuries because they
think people would people are gonna try throwing less hard.
So I don't I don't believe in that. I think
the thought is that pictures would just be built up
more in the minors. Like if you're going to be
a starting pitcher at this level, you need to be
(07:31):
built up to go six innings.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
A lot of what like the development's going to be
is making sure you can be expected to go six man.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
That's really interesting if you call up a young pitcher,
because young pitcher expectations the bar is very low. A
rookie pitcher throws five point one three earned runs and
you're like, look at this rook okay, So that's interesting
for calling up young pictures.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
And the But like having the certain threshold's in there,
like like go, it opens it up right for those
young pitchers to still be like, yeah, it's hard. One
hundred pitchers doesn't get you as far when you're real young.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I guess and that's probably where they got their math
between four runs and one hundred pitches. Like you, you're
gonna end up in a neighborhood. As long as you're
built up like you.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
You don't have to force a guy to really air
it out.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
They interviewed Dinonbacks GM America's GM. That's not true. You
know who that is, The Dinebacks GM, Mike Hazen, and
they said that they would push command over stuff for
their prospects. I don't know if I believe that. Uh
he said they they try to teach some more pitching
to contact stuff. I guess I do believe that. And
(08:43):
we've I think we've already seen teams do this, like
we've there's Garrett Cole starts that you see him pitching
to contact.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Like like during Rodn's like good like first ten starts
of this year, like you could look at like the
runners on runners off, like you ast majority of his
strikeouts were coming or the best plurality at least we're
coming when runners were on base and the contact had
more risk there, like they there's guys having that approach.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Well, and there's I think it's it's what baseball would
love to figure out, cause there's another quote in here
that max Velo's out of the bottle, it's never coming back.
I agree with that, Like, that's that's how guys are competitive. Uh,
we were laughing. I was facetiming with Joe's and his
buddy Jamal the other day and we were laughing about
being old. And when you're young, people tell you like, oh,
(09:35):
just wait till your body starts getting old. Those hamstrings
are gonna get tight your back, your knees, and you're
sitting there and when you hear that, you're like, I'm
sure you and a couple I know a couple other
old guys, but like, I'm gonna be good that one
local umpire who's fifty five and still outsprints the kids
to first base. You're like, I'm gonna be that guy.
(09:55):
And maybe I will be that guy. Uh, I'm not
sure I was going with that, just that Velo's out
and these kids are competitive. Every pitcher throwing thinks that
their arm is the super arm. They think they're gonna
be the one that doesn't need Tommy John or they've
already had it, or they don't care.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
They've got it done and it fixed them.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
They're good now, as long as I throw high velo,
that's my best chance of making it to the major
So that's never gonna be gone. It would be great
if the concept of contact pitching came back, because I
do think the Olds no stuff in the pitching world
that we don't I watched a little bit of the
Mets game last night and Ron Darling was watching a
(10:34):
Lawrence Butler at bat who's been killing it for the
Oakland A's. I believe that's one of Trevor Plufs guy's
Ali's clients at CIA. Shout out to Ali always the
best bunch of Trevor Pluf's ever seen. M M. Take
that and again I don't know what it was. Ron
Darling didn't explain, but he goes Laurence Butler swinging on
this pitch and he did. And again I don't know
(10:58):
if that was something from a previous at bat. I
don't know what that was. But if you know that
as a pitcher, which Ron Darling did, shout out Ron
another Trevor Proof connection, then like, yeah, we need to
pass out more of that info to the minor league
pitchers instead of throw harder, throw faster, make it move more.
Because I do know that those numbers, the more they
(11:19):
go up, the better results you get. But there's a
world of pitching that I feel like isn't getting passed
on right now, and guys are either having to learn
it on the fly or they don't care. You're either
good enough to strike him out and you're good or
you're not, and maybe you get kicked into the bullpen
and you got to figure out one pitch you throw
incredibly well. And that's where I'm open to a rule
(11:42):
like this, Like it is kind of crazy to think
about what that would do to the game. I think
something that would be cool is like fifth innings would
be really good checking points, Like if you're in the
fifth inning of a game, your starter's at eighty pitches
and he's given up three earned runs, like those on
become more inflection points of game instead of like no brainer,
(12:03):
we're gonna go to our bullpen. I do think that
would be some good drama. And again, if the mindset
out there is just like, hey, your pitchers have starting
pitchers have to throw innings, that's a good concept and
the game would adjust to that. There was a couple
notes there trying to incentivize teams like they were talking
about if certain pitchers throw X amount of innings innings,
(12:24):
you get a draft pick. They said that probably doesn't
work because managers aren't gonna make aren't gonna make decisions
like that game in game out.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Their job is focused on winning this game.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
The manager is not gonna throw them two more batters
just to hopefully get a draft pick out of their
staff in three years. So I thought that was interesting
to try to incentivize it more amongst teams or franchises.
The thing that I am more interested in, and I
(13:00):
was gonna say America's GM, but you know it's Jim Duquett,
Mike Hazen brought the Snakes to the World Series. Remember
this one, I feel like feels shocking, but it shouldn't.
It's a five batter minimum for relievers. I think that
would be cool m because basically what that would do
(13:25):
is not only would you expect more results from your
starting pitcher, but for me, the next step has been
having relievers able to pitch multiple innings. I think the
one inning relievers gotta be done. The math just makes
a lot of sense in my head that like, Okay,
let's say you have your one fireballer, reliever class A,
(13:50):
Clay Holmes, ken Lee Jansen, whoever it is, you bring
him in for the ninth, that's your guy. I don't
think that should ever leave baseball. That's some of the
best dramas baseball, right we have closer entrances, Edwin Diaz,
all of it. Like, that's a beautiful part of the game.
But if you're a reliever who's not because think about
what bucket I'm talking about. If you're one of the lockdown,
(14:13):
nasty relievers that should only be able to pitch one inning,
how big is that bucket right now? I mean, let
me how about this, We'll put some stats to it.
Let's go MLB bring up saves.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Who's still use saves?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Bro Okay, Emmanuel class A. Sure that guy is good
enough that if he only needed to pitch one inning, fine,
why not? I wouldn't be surprised if he could bitch more.
But whatever, Josh Hater, Sure, Ryan Helsley, Sure, Rais Iglesias,
(14:51):
Alexis Diaz, Yeah, I mean man Mason Miller or young
stud on John durrowan Edwin Diaz. I mean, if we're
being honest, I can keep digging through this list if
I want. Let's say there's ten guys in baseball that
are so good at being electric that you want to
(15:14):
use them for one inning. Fine, ten guys like double
it in. It's twenty quick math over here. You're welcome.
I don't know why the other guys in bullpens can't
be stretched out for two because I think that's the
way we save bullpens. If we're still gonna keep that
(15:35):
many bodies out there. For me, that's the difference because
if you have that starter, go six innings. Now I'm
looking at the Brewers' bullpen right now, Frankie Montas gives
you six bong, you kick it to Brian Hudson or
Jared Kanick. Sorry for you're only using the big names today.
But if those guys can go two innings, that's your
(15:57):
bridge to the closer. And now you just had six
guys in your bullpen you did not use like. I
think that's the way to keep the bullpen arms fresh.
And I just think the bullpen math changing is a
lot simple, simple, number wise, because we'd have to figure
out those rules again, right, Like every team has their rules.
A lot of teams don't let guys pitch three straight days,
(16:20):
three out of four days is a maximum for a
lot of teams we are starting. It's that time of year,
teams are getting desperate that we're seeing a couple guys
get pushed.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I think at the time of year, Yankees like, we'll
get that, like Kinley's in there three days in a
row once we see it.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Class A went four for four. Uh, it's insane. He's
such a sick puppy. Thirteen pitches twenty ten and ten
all four saves four straight games. So again, if you
needed two out of Class A, I think it could happen.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I think he's capable. Actually, one bit of uh this
is this is more for my own agendas, but just
classes strike out rate lower than Clay.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Holmes, right, I mean he's literally people are comparing him
to Mariano and I get why.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I think if you do the strikeouts compared to like
where strikeouts were in baseball, Like, I think their numbers
are spooky and.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Uh they're like k rate plus.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yes, I think where Emmanuel Class A is. Uh. Not
a lot of guys get to Uh. So for me,
I've always thought the bullpens would be a good, a
good solution of five batter minimum. Again, Like, I think
that's daunting to a lot of people because we picture
these relievers as like I guess everyone pictures the bad
(17:40):
reliever that comes out and doesn't have it that day,
Like you're a batter and a half in and you're like, oh, like,
we we got to pull the plug on this. That
could get ugly.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, and there'd be the rules around that, I'm sure.
I'm sure they'd probably say, being like finishing the inning
is an exception and or like who earned runs something
like that that they'd find some way you're able to
work around it, and then he would get obsessed with it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah. Yeah, I guess that is interesting, Like is there
any level oft like if a pitcher throws a one, two,
three inning, we'd assume they wouldn't have to come back out.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, but that might be the guy you want back
out right because they're good. So there's I guess there's
just given take on any end of that. But it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I'm interested in the reliever stuff. The starting pitcher stuff
I am nervous about because it just feels like such
a significant change. Yeah, and then again.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
The loopholes it lays out in there, like four runs,
hundred pitches all that like it.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I there's a there's a way to.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Be okay with where where that kind of stuff lands.
I guess like rehabbing guys is scary, like coct call
the other Like in his game against the Rangers, he
was like they had a pretty clearly had like a
ninety pitch limit on him, Like, yeah, that that happened.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
For guys, you have to be ready to throw a
hundred pitches.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, you like will have to be built up to
that before coming.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Oh yeah, you almost can't start a game until unless
you're built up to throw a hundred pitches, which maybe.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
And by the way, just a reminder, and this is
you know, some talking baseball midter end of episodes. One
hundred pitches is super arbitrary. Nothing round number. There's nothing
magical about that number. That like nothing happens to the
shoulder at one hundred pitches, I mean something does.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
But I think any more pitching is is.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
More wear and tear. Ninety five, one oh five, ninety
two one to wait, no clue. One hundreds just a
round number. And that's what humans like.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Just a little thought exercise for you, just.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Whenever you're looking for that, be open to it. I
think there can be some good from the game that
comes from it. I mean, I I do think it
wasn't older baseball thing. It's still very prevalent in baseball
that relievers are failed starters. I do think now there
is a reliever path. If you're a really good reliever,
(20:26):
teams will just look at you like that. I remember
when Johnny Lasagna was coming up, like he he started
a little bit in the minors, but he had a
lot of injury history started that game, remember, Yeah, So yeah,
forty man roster stuff.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I guess the other just like got more of a
bigger picture. Look at this conversation talking to the John
boy this morning, when this article dropped, there's an element
of like, how big a problem is this? Right now?
It feels like it's basketball is correcting itself on this
(21:05):
compared to where we were three years ago. Right now
feels like the bigger challenge is that during those years
when it wasn't prioritized, they weren't developing guys to do
that as much. So there kind of is like a
crop of guys who came up like not being taught
to emphasize the innings. You can give it all, right,
(21:26):
but in the grand scheme of things that can be
taught still and that can and there's plenty of other guys.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, I guess for me, I think where Baseball thinks
this would be helpful and they think there's a Velo reduction,
I don't think that's ever gonna happen. I think there'll
be a couple of pitchers that believe in their stuff
so much like the de Gram ask for how many
years now was like, hey, de Gram, Okay, your first
(21:57):
rehab start, you're throwing ninety nine again. I don't know
if we need it. Yeah, why don't you bottle that up?
Ninety seven could be chill. I think you'll have a
couple of those. But everyone else is hunting Velo so much.
There's such a correlation between Vlo and success with any
of the pitches. I guess I don't think it's gonna
(22:20):
stop that at all. And then the star power argument,
it's interesting. I thought it was interesting and maybe there's
something there, but I I mean, we are baseball people
in the weeds. How many starting pitchers right now truly
(22:40):
move the needle, you know, Like I don't want to
say that in a rude way, like even.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Like like how many guys are out there? That's like
when your team's going up against them, you feel like
uphill battle.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So I guess this is this is an interesting place
of where do you draw the line? Because like, the
first name that jumped into my head was Corbyn Burns
when the cy Young Baltimore Orioles, there's their ace young team,
great team. Like if this rule exists, is Corbyn Burns
more of a star? Mm hmm, you know, I don't know.
(23:20):
I mean like I'm looking, I'm looking at.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Them, actually make that guy more valuable?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Like Carlos Rodon, Does that make him more of a star? Uh?
Kevin Gossman, Dylan Ceeese, Mitch Keller, Like I I guess
I don't see this really elevating anyone's profile from from
the baseball fan perspective, something that used to be cool
(23:51):
that's probably faded out from innings and limits and stuff
like that. It felt like year in, year out rotations
didn't change a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, and maybe maybe that's like just you know.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It's just where we're at. Yeah, with free agency and
free agency.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Injuries, Like maybe that's just positively looking back on memories
and if we actually analyzed.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, if in a way teams called up young pitchers,
they believed in more and they stayed longer, and you
got more familiar with players or the players from the
teams you see a lot. I think there could be
something there, but I don't think star wise, it brings
too too much to the table. Maybe I'm wrong there.
Maybe maybe that's from not seeing starting pictures, because what's
(24:35):
the I mean, I feel like starting pitchers were more
so stars when they could go nine. If you thought
a pitcher was going nine and David Cohne was throwing
that day, you'd be like, Okay, David Cone might go
the whole whole game.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Today, like pictures duels are when like one guy was
gonna throw a complete game, the other guy was gonna
go eight.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Because I guess god, the the what's incentivizing a team
to have a starting pitcher pitch to more contact and
go eight innings? Because this is where the pitches come in.
Then like, what's the incentive six innings, tour and runs,
(25:16):
it's still considered a good start. Are you gonna risk
more contact to try to get seven and eight?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Like I don't think so it is getting to that
is getting to that seventh eith inning going to be
that big a boost if a guy doesn't have his
best stuff, because if in theory, you're four out of
five guys every turn through the rotation, are gonna go six?
Like the bullpens as a whole are more good to go?
(25:46):
Is like the goal behind.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
This If I was if this was a John Boy
Media warehouse meeting and we're throwing ideas at the wall,
I would go back to incentivizing, and again we get
to be a lot more gimmicky because we're just making
stuff up. But like if you incentivized it by inning,
like if you're starting pitcher went eight innings, you got
(26:09):
to go anywhere in your batting order or something like again,
I know I'm starting to get video gaming or is
there like.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
The next day the guy only has to go five
in a series or something? Get you can you get
like rollover innings?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
It's always roll over talk. Yeah, I don't know, I
guess the answer. I guess I just leaked into one
of those ideas that's been in my head ever since
I heard it. For extra innings is like send up
whatever batting order you want kind of Baseball's penalty kicks,
but still playing baseball. Uh. Like, dude, if if Nestor
could throw the eighth inning and you get judge another
(26:45):
at bat, think about how.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Electric dat is nest makes it through eight like an
hour play you get like a one like pick where
you go from here? I don't think would be a
big change.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
That's where that's where changes get tricky, because they either
need little tweaks or they feel big, crazy and scary.
Leave your heart open to this one. I think it's interesting.
I do think the things that it would move the
needle on kind of like you said talking to Jimmy.
I don't know how much it would change the current game.
(27:19):
I think it would just be I think how many
games have starting pitchers that are in the fifth inning,
that are pitches eighty two, one hundred that have given
up three or less runs like that? What do you
what number is that? That number could be forty percent
of starts, That number could be twenty, that number could
(27:43):
be eighty. I have no clue. Five innings. We're gonna
get our stats department on it. We might not either,
But I don't know hearts open any rules. I don't
feel like there's a crazy impact at this point unless
they got kooky with the rules, which I just did
at the end. There, let's see the next steps. I
(28:05):
mean the fact that there's smoke and they've had success
with the last couple rules, I'd expect a little more fire.
This part of the show is just a little silly
because we did official power rankings on Talking Baseball, which
is comical. I mean it's, you know, a couple guys
talking ball and the comment section is hilarious. I mean
(28:29):
a couple a couple people just being excited, and mean
a couple people with good points. So I thought i'd
circle through them a little bit and see the ones
that stood out. The number one comment on the episode
Jason Jannaro's it's so funny when Jake clearly disagrees strongly
with Trevor but wants to keep moving, so he just
(28:49):
stares at the camera for an extra couple seconds and continues,
that's very true. I want Trevor to think about it.
I want him to stew in what he just said.
And I usually with a lot of Trevor's points, there's
a chunk of me that agrees and to come up
with a Ligne power rankings and a tight timeline, a
little tricky. A lot of people happy. We're with Mountain
(29:11):
Dew more importantly, and thank you Mount Dew. There is
a lot of Houston Astros talk and rightfully so this
is the team that I did two or three are
the Astros dead podcasts on I looked at standings from
last year. Couple fun Astros splits one of the popular ones.
(29:34):
Since May first, they have the best record in the
majors fifty five and thirty six. May first, May, June, July,
middle of August. For three and a half months, the
Houston Astros have been the best team in baseball. Feel
like they haven't been talked about that way. I know
they've been toe to toe with the Mariners, and the
(29:54):
Mariners pitching still great. It's great pitching. Since first, the
Astros have been the best team in baseball, like the
Diamondbacks have been the best team since July first, and
there's been more excitement about that. Defending NL champs, by
the way, and as the Houston fans did notice and
(30:16):
whether if you're starting to look into twenty twenty five,
Stock Verlander, Garcia mccullors Javier or Katy on the IL
and JP France. I see you. There's another person that
did it from May eighth for some reason. I don't
know if that got them, if that got the Astros
a couple more points. Am Dudley said they have the
(30:38):
best era. This is why they did mayeth. They have
the best ERA since May eighth and the best ops.
So the Houston Astros since early May have been the
best pitching team and the best hitting team. That's a
good combination. And that person noted Kyle Tucker is not
(31:01):
back yet and he's on his way, so they have
reinforcements coming man, and they need to be treated I
think as a whole we need to start treating Houston
like they are Houston. They haven't been looked at this
that way. They are Houston. They are here, they are back.
(31:21):
Who got you?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Beebs? Oh, I'm I'm trying to do the stat search
we just did, sorting between five and five and two
thirds innings, between eighty and ninety nine pitches. Is there
any other criteria under four runs?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Under four run?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, working on that right now. It's seven hundred and
seventy eight starts. I don't know what that's out of
really how many total starts are there. So I'm working
on things.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I met Kevi in the chat. So going back to
my d Backs in Houston, who are maybe two teams
we all need to be talking about more since June. First,
the Diamondbacks have a better record than the Astros forty
four and twenty one. The Astros are thirty nine and
twenty two. These SATs are also probably from yesterday, so
they may have changed our game. But dude, shout out
(32:16):
to the Diamondbacks. Like, I feel weird talking about the
Diamonbacks at this point because I'm close to the situation
and like last year's October run felt partially fluky, I
think everyone could be a little honest about that. But
they have been, if not the best team in the
National League for a couple months now, one of the
(32:36):
best teams in baseball that the Astros and the Diamonbacks.
However high you want to have them on your list,
you kind of have the right to. Except I do
think the Dodgers, like because these teams had bad starts,
like Houston start was bad, that doesn't mean I should
throw out the Dodgers wins like impressive noted, and I
(32:58):
do think you guys are coming, but just because you
were bad and they were good early on, I can't
fully erase that, Like, that's not how it works. It's
not just how hot are you recently. There's a reason.
It's a long season, and a lot of it will
dictate as we come up to the finish line a
little over a month, six weeks. Never been good at
(33:20):
that math. Big picture guy. That's hilarious that that's his name,
because this is his comment. I love that there's no
one clear favorite in the MLB this season. I could
see any team getting knocked out in the first round.
You are a big picture guy. Huh, that's what you love.
(33:41):
It's kind of true though, as you go through the
top teams, and I've done it with you guys the
AL you could argue the favorite. I think handover foot
that a phrase in the NL. There's a Dodgers argument,
there's arguments against, there's a Phillies argument, there's an argument
against Diamondbacks that would hold up in the court of law.
(34:04):
So it is a wide open field, which I do
feel like is one of baseball's goals that if you're
one of those people, I think I think baseball is
in a good spot. I'm not sure, BBD.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Alright, I think I have a numbers update.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Okay, tell me, you alert.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Me if anything sounds wrong in this. So I went.
I took the twenty twenty three season. So last season
the search criteria between five innings and five point two innings,
between eighty and ninety nine pitches. Three runs are fewer,
so under four, I have six hundred and sixty one
starts of that nature. When I looked up how many
(34:47):
baseball games are there in a season, said roughly twenty
five hundred. I'll take that as its value. Two starters
per game, So six sixty one out of five thousand
starts per game or per season is about thirteen percent
of starts, okay, which doesn't sound wrong, right, And and it.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
So if thirteen percent of starts are on them, I'm
sure if we if we thought about some caveats around
the edge, maybe that gets us to fifteen or twenty percent. Yeah, Okay,
I don't.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Know, And that's not taking into account guys who it's
like didn't finish fourth thing that made whatever?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Right, I'm sure there's some O center guy rehabs. Sure
I'll call it twenty percent, which that'd be one out
of every five starts on your team. So in a
way that feels impactful. Okay, we'll circle back on that. Uh,
people were mad. Trev is a little bit of a
central Homer. He admits that the Guardians are a weird
(35:49):
mental exercise whether you want to. You know, the Diamondbacks
and the Guardians. We debated. The Diamacks just swept them,
So that was in a lot of people's heads. Uh,
the Guardians, I don't know what to do with I
think honestly, people aren't fully bought in. I don't know
(36:10):
if that's the uniform. I don't know if that's the roster.
I don't know if that's the lack of starting pitching.
Making this episode full circle. You like that Kirk Cousins
drafted him. Will he be good? No idea? What do
you do with him week one in Atlanta? Is that
offense gonna be clicking? We'll do some fantasy football another time.
(36:35):
Dodgers note, and I've done it on this show. I've
kind of ruled Yamamoto out for the year, and they
keep saying he's not. Let's see who's right. That would
be an impact piece as Walker Buehler pitched the other day.
Didn't look exactly like Walker Buehler, but the fact he's
out there thrown sneeze coming on and maybe I'll hide it.
(36:55):
In Anthony Tomas's rude comment the ES Power ranking starters
pack one don't watch the games. Two only look at
overall record. Three ignore streaks and slumps. Four only acknowledge
players who are well known and well paid. Uh. Two
(37:17):
and three only look it overall record and ignore streeks.
And I feel like we only talked about streaks and slumps.
The Phillies are slumping.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
That's like what dictated most of.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
The dionas in Houston streaking.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
That was like most tie breakers.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I don't know. That was one of the first mean
ones that I was like, you're kind of being folkish man. Uh.
Dodger fans commenting were very interesting. They felt they I
feel like they're having a very similar season to the Yankees,
that they're feeling tormented by their season, yet they understand
(37:54):
they're sitting pretty Jonathan Montgomery, Dodgers are number but there
is a lot of parody this year and the whole
n West is hot. Also, Dodgers love torturing their fans.
They're the most frustrating number one team ever. Interesting commentary.
I'm open to it. Uh, let's see, there was some
(38:15):
Royals Red Sox sock. Oh, I guess this is the
funny thing, and I should I get Power rankings are
also a trap, and I think that's why they're popular,
because how how about this, let's finish with this game.
How low could you possibly rank the Dodgers if you
(38:39):
were doing MLB power rankings? They just got Mookie bets back.
They have the best record if they didn't lose it yesterday, which,
by the way, Devin Williams performance last night Little Bro
of the Night struck out the MVPs show. Hey, Mookie Freddy,
(38:59):
how low could you possibly rank the Dodgers right now?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Egg on your face? There? Now the one, two, three,
four fifth best record?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Oh shit, okay, well to Milwaukee. We'll start at five, Like,
can you really put the d Backs or Snakes over them?
Or excuse me Padres because that's where my final comment
was going. Yeah, someone was mad. The Padres are nineteen
and four since the break eight straight series. So I
(39:33):
got Dodgers, Padres, Diamondbacks. The Dodgers have run that division.
The Dodgers just got an MVP back. I mean, I
guess if I full Charlie Angels full throttle, you can
make an argument for San Diego Arizona. But that would
be a hot take.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
That would be like the takeaway of what you put there.
It's like the statement you would have been trying to
make if you're like of the whole exercise.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Because then if we're doing if we're getting that recent.
So if you're recent and you're so hot to trot
on the Diamondbacks and Padres, which I'm hot to trot
on the Dinonbacks and Padres, that means you have the Phillies.
What would you have the Phillies as the fourth team
in the National League fifth? They've been fucking badass and
(40:28):
they're gonna be badass. And you know that every team
goes through a rough stretch. That that's the trick with
power rankings. Red Sox fans weren't happy, Royals fans weren't happy.
Mariners fans aren't sure where they're at with me, and
I understand that, but I don't know if you're looking
for some laughs, let me see. I mean, I've got
(40:51):
another guy here fighting for the Guardians. When you put
all these names on the table, nobody's gonna be happy.
Let's see Wallace Creed's list, Astro's number one. Okay, that's
just tough. They're a day or two away from being
behind the Mariners. April Still happened.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Has to be part of it.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
I realize it. It should be less than it is less.
April still did happen, And if an April like that
were to pop up again, they could not be in
the playoffs. They're gonna be in. They're horrifying. It was
a top fifteen list. Go check it out. I'm a
little hot, I'm a little sick. I think we're gonna
(41:36):
call it here, big fanatics weekend. Hopefully get some good
stuff for the GRAM, some good stories for Monday. Thank
you guys. Telling Beebes.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Wake and Jake is a production of Dan Patrick Productions,
John Boy Media, and Workhouse Media.
Woo, Hello and welcome to Wag and Jake myself, Jake's Story,
Ellie Big Baby David Mendelssohn on Thursday, August fifteenth, Apologies,
got a little sick yesterday and trying to save it
up because we have a huge weekend. We're going to
Fanatics Fest. I'm pretty sure we're doing a live live
show on the stage from two to four before US.
(00:22):
I mean, this is Flex time Slash what happened time
Dana White UFC. I think is before us and after
US I believe is Tom Brady, Lil Wayne somewhat and Jay.
I think Brunson and Hearten.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Yeah. I had been told Brunson and heart just got
me and Maddy Mass cooking.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Them right, I bet so. I midday yesterday I just
started feeling it, whatever it was, whether Nashville tired, sick,
whatever it was, went home, rested up a little bit,
did talking next Last night different, and I still feel
a little bit little DayQuil this morning. But I'm here
for the people. I'm not gonna miss up too, so
(01:07):
it's a dayly. I appreciate you guys. We did have
some rule change discussion. It's been one of the fun
starting pitcher ones, and we got some more deats around it,
so I want to dive into that because that's what
the people love. And then I think a fun exercise.
We did power rankings on Talking Baseball. If you haven't
listened to them, go check them out, although I will
be revealing some thoughts on them, but I want to
(01:30):
go through the comments because I want to show there's
a couple comments that I was like, damn, we do
need to appreciate that more. There's a couple funny mean
ones if I'm being for real, And then I think
there were arguments on both sides for both teams that
I want to go through a few of those. But
let's start out with kind of the news from the
(01:52):
baseball world, and we know it's something they've been tinkering with,
the six inning minimum starting pitcher rule come to major
League Baseball. If you have no idea what I'm talking about,
you know there are theories, and I think I partially
agree with the theories that part of the reason baseball games,
from a discussion standpoint, have lost a little bit of
(02:14):
their luster is the lack of the starting pitcher that
used to be old timey baseball who's starting today? Or
what if I told you there was a playoff game
and it was Garrett Cole versus Justin Verlander. Like that
gets some juice going in you. I mean, even like,
like even without starting pitching quite being what it had
(02:37):
been even growing up for us, like, it's still among
the first questions that come up when you're saying, like,
let's go to the game today. That was I had
a friend tell me they were going to the Orioles
Red Sox game today, and my initial knee jerk reaction
was pitching. I didn't even ask because they're not like
(02:58):
dialed baseball wise that I was like, okay, this is
a bad question. Uh, And then I looked it up
Paveta Paveta Eflyn, which okay, that's cool to baseball losers
like us subscribe to the channel everyone, thank you. But yeah,
there's something to the beauty of the starting pitcher. I
do think with some of the rules we've already reverted
(03:19):
back just a little bit, starting pitchers are going longer. Like, yes,
there was a couple of years that you know, we
third time through the order used to end a starting
pitcher's day. You don't see that anymore. I think it
was because there was wear and tear on bullpens. I think,
I don't know. I think teams a teams that still
had a guy that could do it or two guys
(03:42):
that could do it were it was like obvious benefits.
You're you're just getting more innings in there easier, and
if you're a starting pitcher, you're kind of better unless
you're a manual class a. Uh that. Yeah, the baseball
has a way of bouncing back. That was the whole
thing with the shift. They said for years that hey,
baseball's going to adjust, we'll beat the shift, and then
(04:04):
they did it. So the Commissioner's office came in and
the infield shift. I'm ready for more bands on the shift.
I'm about it. I've said it on here before. Give
me the normal alignment when you picture players on the field.
That's going to bring more athletic defensive players back into play.
I want more doubles. Doubles are electric. Anyways, for another time.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, he can talk, we can talk shifts all day,
but it's not the rule topic of the current.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I mean, I think I'm currently in the semi minority
on that. I think people are even where we're at
with the shift rules are better, So like, I'm not
slamming the table on that.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I'm fine with opening the samples size on what we've
the rules we've got right now.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Some of the outfield shifts still pretty crazy. Some of
the infield shifts still pretty crazy. Anyways, they jumped in
on that and it's been successful for baseball. They also
jumped in on the pitch clock, which has been one
of Baseball's bigger wins in recent years. So I know,
you know there's some Lol Manfred people out there. I mean,
we had a lockout, and anyone just wants to target
a commissioner. But if they hit big on another rule,
(05:09):
like Rob Manfred, like every commissioner, Waltz is into the
Hall of Fame. But Rob Manfred's gonna be pitch clock,
save the game a little bit, shift save the game
a little bit that I think they're going to go
for another one, and why not. They've kind of been
doing well with it. So this is the sixth inning
(05:31):
double hook. Joe's McFly that they want starting pitchers to
go six innings and if you pull your starting pitcher
before that, you would lose your DH. So a couple
interesting things about it, And there are other parts of
the rule that I found out today. If they throw
one hundred pitches, they're eligible to be pulled, which that
(05:54):
would be really interesting if there's funny business involved. You
could have pictures throwing tensional balls to get to one hundred.
I don't know. I guess that's pretty deep cut into it.
If they give up four or more in runs, which
I don't know, that feels a little light just early.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
On when when we read it, it felt like in
my head like might need to be that fifth run.
But if we want to start at four unlocks it,
I'm I can be open.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
To that, open to the concept. I don't know, something
with five point one innings four and runs like that
feels like a normal start, or if they get injured obviously,
So I think if your starter makes it to the
sixth inning, your DH would be good. If it doesn't,
you lose it for the game. And you're starting to
get into pinch hitting and stuff like that, so there's
(06:46):
some perks on that side. You'd probably have a deeper
pinch hitting bench or that would be the goal, So
you could use that, Like.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
On the players Union end of things, it would probably
be on average like one more or like paid like veteran.
It'd be a job lot a player for every team.
You'd want an extra guy that you trust.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
It'd be a job. So the players would probably like that.
They think it would lead to less injuries because they
think people would people are gonna try throwing less hard.
So I don't I don't believe in that. I think
the thought is that pictures would just be built up
more in the minors. Like if you're going to be
a starting pitcher at this level, you need to be
(07:31):
built up to go six innings.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
A lot of what like the development's going to be
is making sure you can be expected to go six man.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
That's really interesting if you call up a young pitcher,
because young pitcher expectations the bar is very low. A
rookie pitcher throws five point one three earned runs and
you're like, look at this rook okay, So that's interesting
for calling up young pictures.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
And the But like having the certain threshold's in there,
like like go, it opens it up right for those
young pitchers to still be like, yeah, it's hard. One
hundred pitchers doesn't get you as far when you're real young.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I guess and that's probably where they got their math
between four runs and one hundred pitches. Like you, you're
gonna end up in a neighborhood. As long as you're
built up like you.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
You don't have to force a guy to really air
it out.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
They interviewed Dinonbacks GM America's GM. That's not true. You
know who that is, The Dinebacks GM, Mike Hazen, and
they said that they would push command over stuff for
their prospects. I don't know if I believe that. Uh
he said they they try to teach some more pitching
to contact stuff. I guess I do believe that. And
(08:43):
we've I think we've already seen teams do this, like
we've there's Garrett Cole starts that you see him pitching
to contact.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Like like during Rodn's like good like first ten starts
of this year, like you could look at like the
runners on runners off, like you ast majority of his
strikeouts were coming or the best plurality at least we're
coming when runners were on base and the contact had
more risk there, like they there's guys having that approach.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Well, and there's I think it's it's what baseball would
love to figure out, cause there's another quote in here
that max Velo's out of the bottle, it's never coming back.
I agree with that, Like, that's that's how guys are competitive. Uh,
we were laughing. I was facetiming with Joe's and his
buddy Jamal the other day and we were laughing about
being old. And when you're young, people tell you like, oh,
(09:35):
just wait till your body starts getting old. Those hamstrings
are gonna get tight your back, your knees, and you're
sitting there and when you hear that, you're like, I'm
sure you and a couple I know a couple other
old guys, but like, I'm gonna be good that one
local umpire who's fifty five and still outsprints the kids
to first base. You're like, I'm gonna be that guy.
(09:55):
And maybe I will be that guy. Uh, I'm not
sure I was going with that, just that Velo's out
and these kids are competitive. Every pitcher throwing thinks that
their arm is the super arm. They think they're gonna
be the one that doesn't need Tommy John or they've
already had it, or they don't care.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
They've got it done and it fixed them.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
They're good now, as long as I throw high velo,
that's my best chance of making it to the major
So that's never gonna be gone. It would be great
if the concept of contact pitching came back, because I
do think the Olds no stuff in the pitching world
that we don't I watched a little bit of the
Mets game last night and Ron Darling was watching a
(10:34):
Lawrence Butler at bat who's been killing it for the
Oakland A's. I believe that's one of Trevor Plufs guy's
Ali's clients at CIA. Shout out to Ali always the
best bunch of Trevor Pluf's ever seen. M M. Take
that and again I don't know what it was. Ron
Darling didn't explain, but he goes Laurence Butler swinging on
this pitch and he did. And again I don't know
(10:58):
if that was something from a previous at bat. I
don't know what that was. But if you know that
as a pitcher, which Ron Darling did, shout out Ron
another Trevor Proof connection, then like, yeah, we need to
pass out more of that info to the minor league
pitchers instead of throw harder, throw faster, make it move more.
Because I do know that those numbers, the more they
(11:19):
go up, the better results you get. But there's a
world of pitching that I feel like isn't getting passed
on right now, and guys are either having to learn
it on the fly or they don't care. You're either
good enough to strike him out and you're good or
you're not, and maybe you get kicked into the bullpen
and you got to figure out one pitch you throw
incredibly well. And that's where I'm open to a rule
(11:42):
like this, Like it is kind of crazy to think
about what that would do to the game. I think
something that would be cool is like fifth innings would
be really good checking points, Like if you're in the
fifth inning of a game, your starter's at eighty pitches
and he's given up three earned runs, like those on
become more inflection points of game instead of like no brainer,
(12:03):
we're gonna go to our bullpen. I do think that
would be some good drama. And again, if the mindset
out there is just like, hey, your pitchers have starting
pitchers have to throw innings, that's a good concept and
the game would adjust to that. There was a couple
notes there trying to incentivize teams like they were talking
about if certain pitchers throw X amount of innings innings,
(12:24):
you get a draft pick. They said that probably doesn't
work because managers aren't gonna make aren't gonna make decisions
like that game in game out.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Their job is focused on winning this game.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
The manager is not gonna throw them two more batters
just to hopefully get a draft pick out of their
staff in three years. So I thought that was interesting
to try to incentivize it more amongst teams or franchises.
The thing that I am more interested in, and I
(13:00):
was gonna say America's GM, but you know it's Jim Duquett,
Mike Hazen brought the Snakes to the World Series. Remember
this one, I feel like feels shocking, but it shouldn't.
It's a five batter minimum for relievers. I think that
would be cool m because basically what that would do
(13:25):
is not only would you expect more results from your
starting pitcher, but for me, the next step has been
having relievers able to pitch multiple innings. I think the
one inning relievers gotta be done. The math just makes
a lot of sense in my head that like, Okay,
let's say you have your one fireballer, reliever class A,
(13:50):
Clay Holmes, ken Lee Jansen, whoever it is, you bring
him in for the ninth, that's your guy. I don't
think that should ever leave baseball. That's some of the
best dramas baseball, right we have closer entrances, Edwin Diaz,
all of it. Like, that's a beautiful part of the game.
But if you're a reliever who's not because think about
what bucket I'm talking about. If you're one of the lockdown,
(14:13):
nasty relievers that should only be able to pitch one inning,
how big is that bucket right now? I mean, let
me how about this, We'll put some stats to it.
Let's go MLB bring up saves.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Who's still use saves?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Bro Okay, Emmanuel class A. Sure that guy is good
enough that if he only needed to pitch one inning, fine,
why not? I wouldn't be surprised if he could bitch more.
But whatever, Josh Hater, Sure, Ryan Helsley, Sure, Rais Iglesias,
(14:51):
Alexis Diaz, Yeah, I mean man Mason Miller or young
stud on John durrowan Edwin Diaz. I mean, if we're
being honest, I can keep digging through this list if
I want. Let's say there's ten guys in baseball that
are so good at being electric that you want to
(15:14):
use them for one inning. Fine, ten guys like double
it in. It's twenty quick math over here. You're welcome.
I don't know why the other guys in bullpens can't
be stretched out for two because I think that's the
way we save bullpens. If we're still gonna keep that
(15:35):
many bodies out there. For me, that's the difference because
if you have that starter, go six innings. Now I'm
looking at the Brewers' bullpen right now, Frankie Montas gives
you six bong, you kick it to Brian Hudson or
Jared Kanick. Sorry for you're only using the big names today.
But if those guys can go two innings, that's your
(15:57):
bridge to the closer. And now you just had six
guys in your bullpen you did not use like. I
think that's the way to keep the bullpen arms fresh.
And I just think the bullpen math changing is a
lot simple, simple, number wise, because we'd have to figure
out those rules again, right, Like every team has their rules.
A lot of teams don't let guys pitch three straight days,
(16:20):
three out of four days is a maximum for a
lot of teams we are starting. It's that time of year,
teams are getting desperate that we're seeing a couple guys
get pushed.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I think at the time of year, Yankees like, we'll
get that, like Kinley's in there three days in a
row once we see it.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Class A went four for four. Uh, it's insane. He's
such a sick puppy. Thirteen pitches twenty ten and ten
all four saves four straight games. So again, if you
needed two out of Class A, I think it could happen.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I think he's capable. Actually, one bit of uh this
is this is more for my own agendas, but just
classes strike out rate lower than Clay.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Holmes, right, I mean he's literally people are comparing him
to Mariano and I get why.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I think if you do the strikeouts compared to like
where strikeouts were in baseball, Like, I think their numbers
are spooky and.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Uh they're like k rate plus.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yes, I think where Emmanuel Class A is. Uh. Not
a lot of guys get to Uh. So for me,
I've always thought the bullpens would be a good, a
good solution of five batter minimum. Again, Like, I think
that's daunting to a lot of people because we picture
these relievers as like I guess everyone pictures the bad
(17:40):
reliever that comes out and doesn't have it that day,
Like you're a batter and a half in and you're like, oh, like,
we we got to pull the plug on this. That
could get ugly.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, and there'd be the rules around that, I'm sure.
I'm sure they'd probably say, being like finishing the inning
is an exception and or like who earned runs something
like that that they'd find some way you're able to
work around it, and then he would get obsessed with it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah. Yeah, I guess that is interesting, Like is there
any level oft like if a pitcher throws a one, two,
three inning, we'd assume they wouldn't have to come back out.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, but that might be the guy you want back
out right because they're good. So there's I guess there's
just given take on any end of that. But it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I'm interested in the reliever stuff. The starting pitcher stuff
I am nervous about because it just feels like such
a significant change. Yeah, and then again.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
The loopholes it lays out in there, like four runs,
hundred pitches all that like it.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I there's a there's a way to.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Be okay with where where that kind of stuff lands.
I guess like rehabbing guys is scary, like coct call
the other Like in his game against the Rangers, he
was like they had a pretty clearly had like a
ninety pitch limit on him, Like, yeah, that that happened.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
For guys, you have to be ready to throw a
hundred pitches.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, you like will have to be built up to
that before coming.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Oh yeah, you almost can't start a game until unless
you're built up to throw a hundred pitches, which maybe.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
And by the way, just a reminder, and this is
you know, some talking baseball midter end of episodes. One
hundred pitches is super arbitrary. Nothing round number. There's nothing
magical about that number. That like nothing happens to the
shoulder at one hundred pitches, I mean something does.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
But I think any more pitching is is.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
More wear and tear. Ninety five, one oh five, ninety
two one to wait, no clue. One hundreds just a
round number. And that's what humans like.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Just a little thought exercise for you, just.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Whenever you're looking for that, be open to it. I
think there can be some good from the game that
comes from it. I mean, I I do think it
wasn't older baseball thing. It's still very prevalent in baseball
that relievers are failed starters. I do think now there
is a reliever path. If you're a really good reliever,
(20:26):
teams will just look at you like that. I remember
when Johnny Lasagna was coming up, like he he started
a little bit in the minors, but he had a
lot of injury history started that game, remember, Yeah, So yeah,
forty man roster stuff.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I guess the other just like got more of a
bigger picture. Look at this conversation talking to the John
boy this morning, when this article dropped, there's an element
of like, how big a problem is this? Right now?
It feels like it's basketball is correcting itself on this
(21:05):
compared to where we were three years ago. Right now
feels like the bigger challenge is that during those years
when it wasn't prioritized, they weren't developing guys to do
that as much. So there kind of is like a
crop of guys who came up like not being taught
to emphasize the innings. You can give it all, right,
(21:26):
but in the grand scheme of things that can be
taught still and that can and there's plenty of other guys.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, I guess for me, I think where Baseball thinks
this would be helpful and they think there's a Velo reduction,
I don't think that's ever gonna happen. I think there'll
be a couple of pitchers that believe in their stuff
so much like the de Gram ask for how many
years now was like, hey, de Gram, Okay, your first
(21:57):
rehab start, you're throwing ninety nine again. I don't know
if we need it. Yeah, why don't you bottle that up?
Ninety seven could be chill. I think you'll have a
couple of those. But everyone else is hunting Velo so much.
There's such a correlation between Vlo and success with any
of the pitches. I guess I don't think it's gonna
(22:20):
stop that at all. And then the star power argument,
it's interesting. I thought it was interesting and maybe there's
something there, but I I mean, we are baseball people
in the weeds. How many starting pitchers right now truly
(22:40):
move the needle, you know, Like I don't want to
say that in a rude way, like even.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Like like how many guys are out there? That's like
when your team's going up against them, you feel like
uphill battle.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So I guess this is this is an interesting place
of where do you draw the line? Because like, the
first name that jumped into my head was Corbyn Burns
when the cy Young Baltimore Orioles, there's their ace young team,
great team. Like if this rule exists, is Corbyn Burns
more of a star? Mm hmm, you know, I don't know.
(23:20):
I mean like I'm looking, I'm looking at.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Them, actually make that guy more valuable?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Like Carlos Rodon, Does that make him more of a star? Uh?
Kevin Gossman, Dylan Ceeese, Mitch Keller, Like I I guess
I don't see this really elevating anyone's profile from from
the baseball fan perspective, something that used to be cool
(23:51):
that's probably faded out from innings and limits and stuff
like that. It felt like year in, year out rotations
didn't change a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, and maybe maybe that's like just you know.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It's just where we're at. Yeah, with free agency and
free agency.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Injuries, Like maybe that's just positively looking back on memories
and if we actually analyzed.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, if in a way teams called up young pitchers,
they believed in more and they stayed longer, and you
got more familiar with players or the players from the
teams you see a lot. I think there could be
something there, but I don't think star wise, it brings
too too much to the table. Maybe I'm wrong there.
Maybe maybe that's from not seeing starting pictures, because what's
(24:35):
the I mean, I feel like starting pitchers were more
so stars when they could go nine. If you thought
a pitcher was going nine and David Cohne was throwing
that day, you'd be like, Okay, David Cone might go
the whole whole game.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Today, like pictures duels are when like one guy was
gonna throw a complete game, the other guy was gonna
go eight.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Because I guess god, the the what's incentivizing a team
to have a starting pitcher pitch to more contact and
go eight innings? Because this is where the pitches come in.
Then like, what's the incentive six innings, tour and runs,
(25:16):
it's still considered a good start. Are you gonna risk
more contact to try to get seven and eight?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Like I don't think so it is getting to that
is getting to that seventh eith inning going to be
that big a boost if a guy doesn't have his
best stuff, because if in theory, you're four out of
five guys every turn through the rotation, are gonna go six?
Like the bullpens as a whole are more good to go?
(25:46):
Is like the goal behind.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
This If I was if this was a John Boy
Media warehouse meeting and we're throwing ideas at the wall,
I would go back to incentivizing, and again we get
to be a lot more gimmicky because we're just making
stuff up. But like if you incentivized it by inning,
like if you're starting pitcher went eight innings, you got
(26:09):
to go anywhere in your batting order or something like again,
I know I'm starting to get video gaming or is
there like.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
The next day the guy only has to go five
in a series or something? Get you can you get
like rollover innings?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
It's always roll over talk. Yeah, I don't know, I
guess the answer. I guess I just leaked into one
of those ideas that's been in my head ever since
I heard it. For extra innings is like send up
whatever batting order you want kind of Baseball's penalty kicks,
but still playing baseball. Uh. Like, dude, if if Nestor
could throw the eighth inning and you get judge another
(26:45):
at bat, think about how.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Electric dat is nest makes it through eight like an
hour play you get like a one like pick where
you go from here? I don't think would be a
big change.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
That's where that's where changes get tricky, because they either
need little tweaks or they feel big, crazy and scary.
Leave your heart open to this one. I think it's interesting.
I do think the things that it would move the
needle on kind of like you said talking to Jimmy.
I don't know how much it would change the current game.
(27:19):
I think it would just be I think how many
games have starting pitchers that are in the fifth inning,
that are pitches eighty two, one hundred that have given
up three or less runs like that? What do you
what number is that? That number could be forty percent
of starts, That number could be twenty, that number could
(27:43):
be eighty. I have no clue. Five innings. We're gonna
get our stats department on it. We might not either,
But I don't know hearts open any rules. I don't
feel like there's a crazy impact at this point unless
they got kooky with the rules, which I just did
at the end. There, let's see the next steps. I
(28:05):
mean the fact that there's smoke and they've had success
with the last couple rules, I'd expect a little more fire.
This part of the show is just a little silly
because we did official power rankings on Talking Baseball, which
is comical. I mean it's, you know, a couple guys
talking ball and the comment section is hilarious. I mean
(28:29):
a couple a couple people just being excited, and mean
a couple people with good points. So I thought i'd
circle through them a little bit and see the ones
that stood out. The number one comment on the episode
Jason Jannaro's it's so funny when Jake clearly disagrees strongly
with Trevor but wants to keep moving, so he just
(28:49):
stares at the camera for an extra couple seconds and continues,
that's very true. I want Trevor to think about it.
I want him to stew in what he just said.
And I usually with a lot of Trevor's points, there's
a chunk of me that agrees and to come up
with a Ligne power rankings and a tight timeline, a
little tricky. A lot of people happy. We're with Mountain
(29:11):
Dew more importantly, and thank you Mount Dew. There is
a lot of Houston Astros talk and rightfully so this
is the team that I did two or three are
the Astros dead podcasts on I looked at standings from
last year. Couple fun Astros splits one of the popular ones.
(29:34):
Since May first, they have the best record in the
majors fifty five and thirty six. May first, May, June, July,
middle of August. For three and a half months, the
Houston Astros have been the best team in baseball. Feel
like they haven't been talked about that way. I know
they've been toe to toe with the Mariners, and the
(29:54):
Mariners pitching still great. It's great pitching. Since first, the
Astros have been the best team in baseball, like the
Diamondbacks have been the best team since July first, and
there's been more excitement about that. Defending NL champs, by
the way, and as the Houston fans did notice and
(30:16):
whether if you're starting to look into twenty twenty five,
Stock Verlander, Garcia mccullors Javier or Katy on the IL
and JP France. I see you. There's another person that
did it from May eighth for some reason. I don't
know if that got them, if that got the Astros
a couple more points. Am Dudley said they have the
(30:38):
best era. This is why they did mayeth. They have
the best ERA since May eighth and the best ops.
So the Houston Astros since early May have been the
best pitching team and the best hitting team. That's a
good combination. And that person noted Kyle Tucker is not
(31:01):
back yet and he's on his way, so they have
reinforcements coming man, and they need to be treated I
think as a whole we need to start treating Houston
like they are Houston. They haven't been looked at this
that way. They are Houston. They are here, they are back.
(31:21):
Who got you?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Beebs? Oh, I'm I'm trying to do the stat search
we just did, sorting between five and five and two
thirds innings, between eighty and ninety nine pitches. Is there
any other criteria under four runs?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Under four run?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, working on that right now. It's seven hundred and
seventy eight starts. I don't know what that's out of
really how many total starts are there. So I'm working
on things.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I met Kevi in the chat. So going back to
my d Backs in Houston, who are maybe two teams
we all need to be talking about more since June. First,
the Diamondbacks have a better record than the Astros forty
four and twenty one. The Astros are thirty nine and
twenty two. These SATs are also probably from yesterday, so
they may have changed our game. But dude, shout out
(32:16):
to the Diamondbacks. Like, I feel weird talking about the
Diamonbacks at this point because I'm close to the situation
and like last year's October run felt partially fluky, I
think everyone could be a little honest about that. But
they have been, if not the best team in the
National League for a couple months now, one of the
(32:36):
best teams in baseball that the Astros and the Diamonbacks.
However high you want to have them on your list,
you kind of have the right to. Except I do
think the Dodgers, like because these teams had bad starts,
like Houston start was bad, that doesn't mean I should
throw out the Dodgers wins like impressive noted, and I
(32:58):
do think you guys are coming, but just because you
were bad and they were good early on, I can't
fully erase that, Like, that's not how it works. It's
not just how hot are you recently. There's a reason.
It's a long season, and a lot of it will
dictate as we come up to the finish line a
little over a month, six weeks. Never been good at
(33:20):
that math. Big picture guy. That's hilarious that that's his name,
because this is his comment. I love that there's no
one clear favorite in the MLB this season. I could
see any team getting knocked out in the first round.
You are a big picture guy. Huh, that's what you love.
(33:41):
It's kind of true though, as you go through the
top teams, and I've done it with you guys the
AL you could argue the favorite. I think handover foot
that a phrase in the NL. There's a Dodgers argument,
there's arguments against, there's a Phillies argument, there's an argument
against Diamondbacks that would hold up in the court of law.
(34:04):
So it is a wide open field, which I do
feel like is one of baseball's goals that if you're
one of those people, I think I think baseball is
in a good spot. I'm not sure, BBD.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Alright, I think I have a numbers update.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Okay, tell me, you alert.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Me if anything sounds wrong in this. So I went.
I took the twenty twenty three season. So last season
the search criteria between five innings and five point two innings,
between eighty and ninety nine pitches. Three runs are fewer,
so under four, I have six hundred and sixty one
starts of that nature. When I looked up how many
(34:47):
baseball games are there in a season, said roughly twenty
five hundred. I'll take that as its value. Two starters
per game, So six sixty one out of five thousand
starts per game or per season is about thirteen percent
of starts, okay, which doesn't sound wrong, right, And and it.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
So if thirteen percent of starts are on them, I'm
sure if we if we thought about some caveats around
the edge, maybe that gets us to fifteen or twenty percent. Yeah, Okay,
I don't.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Know, And that's not taking into account guys who it's
like didn't finish fourth thing that made whatever?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Right, I'm sure there's some O center guy rehabs. Sure
I'll call it twenty percent, which that'd be one out
of every five starts on your team. So in a
way that feels impactful. Okay, we'll circle back on that. Uh,
people were mad. Trev is a little bit of a
central Homer. He admits that the Guardians are a weird
(35:49):
mental exercise whether you want to. You know, the Diamondbacks
and the Guardians. We debated. The Diamacks just swept them,
So that was in a lot of people's heads. Uh,
the Guardians, I don't know what to do with I
think honestly, people aren't fully bought in. I don't know
(36:10):
if that's the uniform. I don't know if that's the roster.
I don't know if that's the lack of starting pitching.
Making this episode full circle. You like that Kirk Cousins
drafted him. Will he be good? No idea? What do
you do with him week one in Atlanta? Is that
offense gonna be clicking? We'll do some fantasy football another time.
(36:35):
Dodgers note, and I've done it on this show. I've
kind of ruled Yamamoto out for the year, and they
keep saying he's not. Let's see who's right. That would
be an impact piece as Walker Buehler pitched the other day.
Didn't look exactly like Walker Buehler, but the fact he's
out there thrown sneeze coming on and maybe I'll hide it.
(36:55):
In Anthony Tomas's rude comment the ES Power ranking starters
pack one don't watch the games. Two only look at
overall record. Three ignore streaks and slumps. Four only acknowledge
players who are well known and well paid. Uh. Two
(37:17):
and three only look it overall record and ignore streeks.
And I feel like we only talked about streaks and slumps.
The Phillies are slumping.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
That's like what dictated most of.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
The dionas in Houston streaking.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
That was like most tie breakers.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I don't know. That was one of the first mean
ones that I was like, you're kind of being folkish man. Uh.
Dodger fans commenting were very interesting. They felt they I
feel like they're having a very similar season to the Yankees,
that they're feeling tormented by their season, yet they understand
(37:54):
they're sitting pretty Jonathan Montgomery, Dodgers are number but there
is a lot of parody this year and the whole
n West is hot. Also, Dodgers love torturing their fans.
They're the most frustrating number one team ever. Interesting commentary.
I'm open to it. Uh, let's see, there was some
(38:15):
Royals Red Sox sock. Oh, I guess this is the
funny thing, and I should I get Power rankings are
also a trap, and I think that's why they're popular,
because how how about this, let's finish with this game.
How low could you possibly rank the Dodgers if you
(38:39):
were doing MLB power rankings? They just got Mookie bets back.
They have the best record if they didn't lose it yesterday, which,
by the way, Devin Williams performance last night Little Bro
of the Night struck out the MVPs show. Hey, Mookie Freddy,
(38:59):
how low could you possibly rank the Dodgers right now?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Egg on your face? There? Now the one, two, three,
four fifth best record?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Oh shit, okay, well to Milwaukee. We'll start at five, Like,
can you really put the d Backs or Snakes over them?
Or excuse me Padres because that's where my final comment
was going. Yeah, someone was mad. The Padres are nineteen
and four since the break eight straight series. So I
(39:33):
got Dodgers, Padres, Diamondbacks. The Dodgers have run that division.
The Dodgers just got an MVP back. I mean, I
guess if I full Charlie Angels full throttle, you can
make an argument for San Diego Arizona. But that would
be a hot take.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
That would be like the takeaway of what you put there.
It's like the statement you would have been trying to
make if you're like of the whole exercise.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Because then if we're doing if we're getting that recent.
So if you're recent and you're so hot to trot
on the Diamondbacks and Padres, which I'm hot to trot
on the Dinonbacks and Padres, that means you have the Phillies.
What would you have the Phillies as the fourth team
in the National League fifth? They've been fucking badass and
(40:28):
they're gonna be badass. And you know that every team
goes through a rough stretch. That that's the trick with
power rankings. Red Sox fans weren't happy, Royals fans weren't happy.
Mariners fans aren't sure where they're at with me, and
I understand that, but I don't know if you're looking
for some laughs, let me see. I mean, I've got
(40:51):
another guy here fighting for the Guardians. When you put
all these names on the table, nobody's gonna be happy.
Let's see Wallace Creed's list, Astro's number one. Okay, that's
just tough. They're a day or two away from being
behind the Mariners. April Still happened.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Has to be part of it.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
I realize it. It should be less than it is less.
April still did happen, And if an April like that
were to pop up again, they could not be in
the playoffs. They're gonna be in. They're horrifying. It was
a top fifteen list. Go check it out. I'm a
little hot, I'm a little sick. I think we're gonna
(41:36):
call it here, big fanatics weekend. Hopefully get some good
stuff for the GRAM, some good stories for Monday. Thank
you guys. Telling Beebes.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Wake and Jake is a production of Dan Patrick Productions,
John Boy Media, and Workhouse Media.
Hosts And Creators
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Dan Patrick
Patrick "Seton" O'Connor
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