Our 2025 Catcher Tier List (with Jolly Olive)

Talkin' Jake, Jolly Olive, & BBD are ranking every 2025 MLB Catcher on a tier list! 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to Waken Jake tear List season. Today
we are doing the backstops catchers with my catcher Jolly
Olive and my catcher's catcher, Big Baby David Mendelssohn. As
we break them up, rank them and split them up
and Waken Jake fashion. We took a while pregaming this

(00:23):
one because the catcher position it. I don't know, I'm
interested to see where we land on a lot of guys.
Obviously that's the whole game, but it felt like to
me that catchers were in I don't know, like Adley
was going to take over the crown, and it felt
like there was a couple mainstays that had things on
lock that we had some weird years out of Sean

(00:45):
Murphy last year, JT. Realmudo, who held the crown for
a while. He's me and him are wrestling Father Time
every day now, Will Smith always the bridesmade, never the Bride.
And there's a ton of young guys that when you
actually click into their page like what do I do?
What do I do? With Joey Bart We'll get into
all of that and more. How you doing, John.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Chris Rose, I'm good. I am Maurice Jones drew We're
in a little bit of a Catcher's golden age right now.
We kind of said that in the Shortstop tier list,
and then we were doing some mock ups of our
list today and there's a lot of good, right there's
a lot of great. So it's gonna get kind of
messy in the middle, kind of Harry in the middle.

(01:27):
I think we know the top and the bottom, like
any good relationship, and I'm excited to get started.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Okay, cancel Horny five.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
This is crazy, just healthy commentary.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
This is crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
You should know if you don't talk to your partner.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
We need to know where we're going to know where
we're from. We have our tears for this year, and
maybe that's the teas I'll actually start with. We've started
with six columns rose this time, thank you ancient Rome terminology.
I think we opened up with nine last time, and
I like to expand as we find different tiers that

(02:05):
present themselves. I think we started with too many tiers,
although the shorts up tear worked out great, and make
sure you go like that subscribe and all the fun
stuff we currently have for the Catchers at the top,
it's baby brow in the butt daisy hunting for those
talking baseball people hunting the Silver Daisy Award, Avril Levine,

(02:28):
two thousand and two. It's complicated, but God it's a
beautiful thing. Hope or nope, splitting up Avril Levine, twenty
twenty five. It's complicated and it's a little not as
exciting mee as it was in two thousand and two.
And our bottom column, which I hope sticks for the

(02:49):
bottom of the catcher column forever in a nice way,
although I think this guy would be fine with it.
It's Austin Hedges. It's Austin Hedges who will probably be
the first person on the board. Last year we ended
up having one, two, three, four, five, six, seven tiers
s tier, so we obliged for the kids at the
top last year where there were four names. Don't think

(03:11):
you'll see that this year. Starting Twitter Fights for You
was the next column. Set it and forget it. Let's
find the ceiling for a lot of these young handsome catchers.
Is that MF for real? Shout out to that lady
Tiffany still kind of you know her name? Fine? No

(03:36):
daydream about Gary Sanchez was a column I think was
Gary a free agent at the time that we think
it were. Those teams were all hoping to get some
Gary and that last column is give us this one thing,
kind of our way to label the defensive guys, or
maybe they're out there for something else. Austin Hedges was

(03:56):
also down there. Christian Vasquez Maldonado. I guess we'll update
you throughout for our guys that moved up or down
the board from last year. I'm trying to see who
is who's gone. Uh, we're not doing a lot of
the platoon business. We picked one or the other. There's
a couple teams, you know, Padres fans, if you're looking

(04:18):
for Elias Diaz, we have Campusano probably would have ended
up in the same spot. And I'm sure there's one
or two more outliers. Wilson Contreres is off the board.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah that I didn't even notice that. But yeah, he's
not their catcher and they have space this year. They
have a pretty good catcher that we'll talk about.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
I'm trying to see who else jumped off the board. Uh,
who is the pirates catcher last year? Is that? Uh
Hank Davis Henrik, I call him Hank. I don't think
Christian Vasquez will make the list now, the NATO will
find his way there midyear. Let's get into it with

(04:58):
this year's list, and as you know, we like to
hop around with our tier list. I do think the
top has separated themselves this year, and I think it
deserves to be started with that baby brow in the butt.
If you haven't cranked the numbers on that, there was
two people that stood out. Jolly, I've been talking for

(05:19):
a little bit. I'll let you go for it.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, we have a returning member to the top tier,
and we have a new member to the top tier,
and I think it's good to start with the alum,
the guy that I said on my pedestal last year
was the best catcher in baseball before the season. He
went out there. He did it again. No one is
better than William Contrera's at playing catcher right now. I

(05:44):
still remember that initial Braves trade where they got Sean
Murphy from the A's and kind of just quietly the
Brewers swept in and stole Contreras. I think a lot
of people thought man Braves did it again. I thought
that too. It turns out the best catcher in that
deal is William Cancher's pretty definitively because he got even
better last season, went from a four war catcher to

(06:06):
a five war catcher, twenty three home runs a one
to twenty nine oh ps plus fifth in MVP voting. Yeah, fifth,
Like that's nothing to scoff at. And there's no reason
to think he won't get better because he turns twenty
seven this year. He's gonna be the Brewers' best hitter
for a long while. They have got a special special
piece in him. He is the baby bro of the equation.

(06:30):
We still need to talk about the butt though.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, and if you know, you know big cal Rally,
big dumper out in the Pacific Northwest, it's pretty cool
when he was like breaking home run records of Seattle
Mariner's history in the past couple of seasons. Is like,
you know, the only guys with thirty homer season back
to barrio is cal Rally, Ken Griffrey Junior, and Frog mcgillicutt,

(06:53):
although they don't have a ton of history, and that's
part of the reason cal was in that list. But
also I'm I've decided I'm I'm a Seattle truther. I
cannot believe they and Jorge Polanco agreed to do it again.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
I can't believe that either.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
I'm let's not talk about that right now. But cal Rally,
what he has done a behind the plate b is
a switch hitter, and then five war thirty four homers.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Last year on behines as.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
A catcher coming off of a thirty homer season, which
was a twenty seven homer season the year previous, So
the homers have jumped up the past three seasons. He
will be twenty eight last year, set it and forget it.
Also got MVP votes, also got a Gold Glove, So
what are you looking for? And man, if this guy

(07:43):
played in Cincinnati, if this guy played in Citizens Bank,
I think we're talking about forty homer cal Rally seasons,
which as a catcher, as a switch hitting catcher doesn't exist.
So I think he clearly ended up at the top
of the board last year. And yeah, I think the

(08:07):
other names we're going to talk about that, you know, Charlie,
I think the people are gonna be interesting to see
where you're at with Sean Murphy. I think people are
interested to see where everyone's at with Adley and a
couple of these other big catching names after last season.
I don't think anyone. No one has like the slight

(08:27):
injury excuse or no one really has the I don't
think anyone can come to the table and really debate
these two right now, complete package, like you know what
I'm saying, Like some of the next names we're going
to talk about, I don't think anyone could come up
and make us even do like a head tilt.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, Like some of these other guys, their reputation precedes them,
and that's why we give them the benefit of the doubt.
Some of these guys have been good, not great. These
two have been great for multiple years now. They're both young,
so there's reason to suspect they'll better, So I see
no reason to put them anywhere else other than the
tippy top of this list. I got two things on

(09:07):
cal Rally before we move on one. I think it's
crazy to think about, and I want to I don't
want to do a whole Mariner's thing. Sure, there's a
compelling argument to me made that they have the best
center fielder and best catcher in baseball and yet for
some reason they can't hit, which is wild to me.
Also too, You at home, Jake, why don't you do
it too. Why don't you look at the pronunciation section
of cal Rally's baseball reference page. Okay, just take a picka.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Wow, that's insane rhymes with jolly.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Really makes you think, how is that? You know what
cal Raleigh?

Speaker 1 (09:42):
You can live angry and question that, or you just
say that's neat no reason to do that for the
name cal Raley.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
Similar profile. I was a catcher when I played. I
don't know. Sometimes things just work out.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Cal Rally, with another solid season, should pass Trevor Ploof
on the all time home run list. I watched the
Trevor Pluf homer video this morning.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
It was great. I loved it a lot. I have
a great idea by mad.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
He just assumed it would be asked. But he did
pretty good.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
I got fifty No, I got forty nine. Mike Cole
beat me, he got fifty one.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Jesus, yeah right, got some names on that list. So
baby browing the butter at the top. Uh. They deserve
their flowers. They've received their flowers. They should receive more flowers.
Al n l similar to shortstop.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Just an easy top tier.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
I always get mad. I always get mad.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
You live mad.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
The the Contreres bros. Are so good.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
It's messed up.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
And like it's kind of not talked about, like it's
a little bit bad us society that if these were
two brothers from Des Moines, I think we would talk
about it a little more. They're so good, like they're
look at their hitting stats, you.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Can make that they the division. They've they've maybe surpassed
the Molinas.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
They're all star brother catchers.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Because the Malnas never hit.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
Like that third brother that was kind of bad would
actually help them.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
I would need that, like just a third backup catcher
who played for like eight years.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
I want to say that there is a third just one.
There's some baseball family that has another on the way
that we were like, oh shoot, the Chario's got a couple. Anyways,
congrats to William Contraras and cal Rally at the top
of the leader board. Third, let's let's chip away down

(11:34):
because I actually think this second tier MMM is easier
than the pile of beef we're running into. Eventually, we
have a listed as daisy hunting. Like I said, if
you're familiar with our talking baseball, you know our all
j M team kind of how ball players are really measured.

(11:56):
We give out pedals. If you get it for the
whole year, you get to fill that daisy best player
at each in each league for the season. That these guys,
I think a couple of them, like Jolly laid out,
are gonna have different expectations. But I think there's a
there's a few clear cut like I'll get in front

(12:17):
of this as the Yankee guy, Adlei Rushman, I think
it was a weird year. I don't know if it
was a switch hitter losing his swing from one side
of the plate for a little bit. I don't know
if there was an injury. I think there was that. Hey,
maybe it was the league finding something else. I don't
think so. I still think Adlie Rushman is really good.
I think Baltimore is kind of The more I think

(12:40):
about it, I think Baltimore's prime for a big bounce
back year with Gunner being a bona fide star, with
Adley bouncing back with they have so much good youth
that things will click, and Bautista in the bullpen. I
just think that's massive. But that's for another time. That
Addley Rushman already gets judged on a different scale. And hey,

(13:02):
as I took shots fired at everyone for not giving
the Contrera's family proper love. Adle the expectations are very
different because he got so much love that he had
a three and a half war season and everyone's like
Adley Rushman, I don't know anymore. So I Adley deserves
to be on this tier, and I actually, if I'm

(13:23):
being honest, I expect him to be top tier coming
into next season. But for a lot of young baseball players,
sometimes ish happens, and I don't know if Adley's on
that bus. I doubt it, but he could be. It
was a weird year last year.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, I agree with a lot of the things he said,
and I think Adley's scale is different one because he
was the top pick. If he doesn't go, it's really hard.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Caffrey, what did you say, tackled McCaffrey, Oh, kickoff return?

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Come on, let me know if you've seen that clip
once or twice or a thousand times on social media
with him, it's it's an unfair scale because really, if
he doesn't go, it's hard for the Orioles to go.
He is such a centerpiece of the core of that team.
The thing that worries me about ADLEI is that strikeouts
went up last year, walk right went way down, which
is kind of a scary thing, especially for a switch

(14:13):
hitter when you're trying to balance a lot. But I
do think that, you know, the five War caliber rookie
player that we saw two years ago is definitely still
in there. I think he's earned the benefit of the
doubt in that regard. And it's just weird because I
think by now, like you kind of alluded to the
beginning of the show, we all kind of expected Adlie
to just take the crown and become the best catcher

(14:35):
in baseball, which is still a thing that can happen.
He's gonna be younger than William Cantraz was last year
this year, so I think he's still got that edge
to him. I think the Orioles need him to be
that guy, and I still think he can. With the
other two that I kind of have alongside him, they
had better years last year, but their resumes, or I

(14:56):
guess their reputation in my mind, aren't as like, you know,
profound as Adley, the former number one overall pick the
face of the Orioles. These guys aren't really the faces
of their teams. But they are among the best catchers
in the league.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah. And I again, if you're looking to kill fifty
minutes at work, which you are listening to waken Jake,
probably choo through Adley's numbers from last year. I mean
the biggest one first righties a six thirty one ops.
He's still mauled lefties, I know two. So again, is

(15:31):
that injury, is that the pitcher's finding something out, is
that the ball started rolling in the baseball gods couldn't
fix it, and it's you know. The other funny thing
is you can't like point at the crazy Camden dimensions
last year or anything, because he actually did it as
the righties. So I don't know. I expect Adleie to
bounce back the year previous against right handed pitchings. I

(15:53):
think he was a seven to seventy eight ops. Even
if he lands in the middle there and he still
mauls righties, he would deserve top tier. So and I
think there is more than that. So I'm expecting Adleie
to find his way atop the leader board. I guess
on the second tier of catchers, I guess you have
a guy that you think is obvious, and I think

(16:13):
he is too, But I want to hear you say.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
I love Yaner Diz. Yeah, I love Yanner Diz. He
was the same guy the past two years, and that's
what's kind of big for me, Like back to back
heres being a three war guy, back to back years
being a one to twenty oh ps plus guy. You
can point at strikeouts and walks with him too, and
you can get kind of concerned because he doesn't.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
I didn't know the walks were like this.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, it's it's low. It's not he's not an on
bass guy. But I just think catchers that can slug
like that are are are few and far between, and
Yiner is among the best right now. And I know
it's a little unfair to some of the older guys
that have been playing, but the youth factor always kind
of does it for me. Like if you're doing this
at twenty five, I'm excited to see what you do
at twenty eight, you know what I mean, Like, I'm

(16:59):
excited for your next three years. Yeah, Yaner is gonna
be really important to the Astros this year too, Like
that should be said as well. We're gonna learn a
lot about him. Last year is a different lineup than
this year. This year, Yaner is hitting fifth, maybe fourth
in that lineup. They're one injury away from him being
the three hitter or the four hitter in that lineup.
Whereas last year they had Kyle Tucker, they had Alex Bregman.

(17:19):
They might not have either of those guys this year.
So will Yiner take a step up and become even better?
Will he stay the same, will he shrink in that spotlight?
I don't know, but I do. What I do know
is that he's been really consistent in the past few years,
and his type of production is not exactly common among
MLB catchers right now, So I have him in the
second tier.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, I think there's some people that might be doing
a slight head till because some of the stats are down.
It was an eight forty six ops a seven sixty
six last year, but offense was down around baseball, so
really it was only a ten point OPS plus jump.
And I think you mentioned the same war and it's
one hundred and four games to one hundred and forty

(17:59):
eight games, which you can spin that both ways. For
me being a catcher and playing a lot and also
having dhd's and other stuff, it's massive for the astros
and this is still productive. But this is still very productive.
I guess I'm interested to see. And I would bank
on Yin or Dias because he's going to be twenty six.

(18:20):
He got his full full season in and I would
expect things to tick up. It will be interesting if
things don't and you have the lack of walks, and
you have three years where you can look at the
numbers and be like, wait, then you're trending down, It
will become interesting. If anything, I think a lot of
people should be buying yinor stock. I wouldn't be surprised

(18:42):
if those homers take a jump this year and everything
kind of does. God, I didn't realize it's gonna be
twenty six. That's that's pretty well. Yeah, he's a It's
that tricky part of the year where seemingly a ton
of people are underrated. But Ordas I do think hits
that who deserves to be on that line with them.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Will Smith, for sure. I'm just looking at his page.
It's funny to think we just said jan here is
gonna be twenty six. This here. Will Smith's first three
worst season was at age twenty six, So I'm saying,
you know, like twenty twenty always gets a little weird
because he probably would have played the full year and
been great that year. But Will Smith, I think it's funny,
Like the idea for this tier was birth from him
never getting that daisy pedal. He's never gotten a pedals,

(19:29):
was that.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
The thing might have to double check. But yeah, it's
there's always just someone just been a horrible trend of
like Sean Murphy was nails an amazing first half, Like
it feels like he's always been like just behind.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
And you gotta feel bad for the Dodgers that they
don't have the best player at a position. Yeah, that's tough,
Like thank you, Yeah, Like people aren't saying that now.
Will Smith is like he would be the best player
on so many teams, like a catcher.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
That's it's in the middle of that lineup.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
In the middle of the lineup, and like is a hell.
Like there's you know, future Cooper's down bound dudes, and
there's Will Smith backing them up and protecting them and
he does a fantastic job doing it. Like he's been
that dude forever. He's never been below league average offensively
at any point in his career. We know what he
brings defensively. They got him on that sick contract too,

(20:16):
Like that never gets talked about, like the fact, what's
again paid. He's getting paid sixteen mil on average a
year and then less down the line. It's front loaded. Uh,
he's like as consistent as can be. I think the
thing that stinks for him is that there's, yeah, like
you said, there's always been one guy in the NL
that's just been a little bit better. But as soon
if it happens at any point of one of those

(20:36):
guys just falling off a little bit, he will become
the best because he is the same dude every year.
He is that great catcher. So he's just slightly below.
But who knows, maybe Will Smith just breaks out and
has that elite season that we've been waiting for.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Sixty two games hitting clean up for the Los Angeles,
the worst serious Los Angeles Dodgers last year, twenty eight
games hitting second, and actually it was a weird year
for him. Last year. He had a significant gap in
the summer where I don't know if the swing was
off again, I don't know if he was hurt. Baseball happens.
That it's funny to see that his numbers landed where

(21:10):
they did because he was in a funk for a while.
That I I would bet on will Smith having a
better year than last year, and maybe that should be
horrifying for everyone. Does anyone else deserve to be with
these guys? Like, I'm I'm looking at Big Salvy, I'm
looking at a real moodo, I'm looking at Logan o'hoppy.

(21:31):
I mean, there's a lot of young catchers that get interesting.
I guess do any of them deserve to be with
these guys? The expectation with these guys.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
I'm having a tough time with Jat because we talked
about a little bit before. But like the way Phillies
fans talked about him, and like the injuries and stuff,
you'd think that he like had a really down year
last year. He's and he's entering the ending of his
contract in that too, But he was still three were

(21:59):
catch ninety nine games last year. He's still above league
average offensively for the tenth year in a row. Like,
he's still fast as hell. He was eightieth percentile sprint speed. Like, yeah,
maybe he does deserve to be in that second tier.
I think it's kind of just like the mode of
we're all waiting for the other shoot to drop and
it hasn't happened yet. So does JT deserve to be

(22:21):
in that second tier? I could. I could be talked
into it, if you want to talk me into it.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
I think I want to start with him there.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
I I'm cool with that.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
I mean, I can't believe how good his stats are
for ninety nine games he was a three war player. Again,
does he get judged on a different scale at this point?
Kind of do I think he has like do I
think he has another summer in him? Absolutely? Not even

(22:49):
close to not to. So I think I want to
start with him there, and I want to see what
it looks like and feels like because I guess the
other lingering question for me and maybe there just needs
to be an old like a legends category is big
salvy because I realized that some of the metrics don't
grade him out defensively. Well, he gets to d H

(23:15):
and play first base a lot because they have Freddy
Fermin shout out to war in like ninety games for
Frederick the other Frederick easy with that that, I don't know,
would it just be safer to have like, uh, the
old old dogs line below this and have Salvi in
real Mudodunk still got it.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
I was I was thinking, like fun haul Fame conversation,
because the bar for it's kind of similar to closers,
where like the bar for catchers is a little bit
lower than some of the other positions just because of
how hard it is.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
And it is like theeers you're capable of putting in,
like they won't become the surefire thing that like was
Joe Auer, for example, who was like a fifty five
war catcher.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
But they're creeping up on forty and like they're still
playing well. But I think that we expect guys like Adlee,
will Smith and Jiner to be better next year because
they are younger, because they played the position a little
bit better, But they don't deserve to be on a
lower like fourth mid level tier because they're still great players,
Like they can still provide you a lot in your

(24:21):
day to day line you.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Can rely on a certain amount from right.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Sally played ninety games the catcher last year. I thought
he played like forty or something. I thought they were
really trying to ease him back, but like, no, he's
still a catcher.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
And so much of why he isn't catching one hundred games.
It's like, well, they just have this for mean kid.
Respect him.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
They're pretty good, So I'm.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Down for Like, I think we just made a new column. Yeah,
and jolly you being a word Smith, I think accidentally
fell into something here. I think below Daisy Hunting should
be chasing forty. Yeah, age and war.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
I like that a lot, chasing forty because.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
If they get over forty career war for the catcher position.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
I do think it's a real fun conversation if they
hit it on a weak ballot or something, and like
you know, there's ten votes to spread around.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Salvador. Salvador Perez had a one nineteen ops plus last year. J.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
T Roummuto's contract with the Phillies is like one of
the best in baseball in the past ten years.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
And I again the beauty with these tier list, it's
what are you talking about? Are you talking about the season?
Are you talking about like for one game? I think
for one game, if you had a gun to your head,
why is that still the thing?

Speaker 2 (25:37):
For one scenario?

Speaker 1 (25:38):
For one game, if you have to pick, if you
have to pick Salve or JT versus Will Smith, Jiner,
depending what Adley's out there. It's an interesting It's an
interesting conversation, like it kind of depends on the rest
of the team. Yeah, Like if I need Big Salvi's

(26:00):
presence in that lineup, I don't know, if I've got
everything else on my team, would I rather just have
JT real Mudo for a day? It's an interesting convo.
Maybe not Will Smith, maybe he's getting disrespected a little
bit of year. But I like the Chase and forty category. Okay,

(26:23):
So that just banged out a couple studs here is there?
Sean Murphy's gonna be a weird one for me. I'm
just gonna come out and say that because I think
you and I are on different wavelengths with him. Like
I guess of any of these young guys, oh hoppy,
Patrick Bailey racks up war I don't know what his

(26:45):
hitting profile truly is. Austin Well, it doesn't seem like
anyone else is screaming at us.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
So I think that the top of this tier list
is solidified in my opinion. There's a lot of great
like conversations about potential with some of the other guys
we're going to talk about, but none of them have
done it.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
Anybody's jumping into these rows, whether it's full season or
it's you know, they just haven't been able to do consistently.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Like none of them breached that barrier of Salvy and JT.
They feel like the they feel like the kind of
gateway that you have to pass through to become an
elite great catcher of the game. Sean Murphy was there
in my opinion, and it was easy, like it was
an easy discussion. But last year, to put it bluntly,
was really bad. Like he I think held the Braves

(27:38):
back from potentially winning the division last year because he
is a very important piece of that team. He is
there Will Smith, he is there consistent, great defensively, can
hit in the middle of the lineup and protect your
stars kind of catcher. He was that guy for five
years and then last year he took a massive step back.
There was injuries. He had no Bleaku injury earlier in
the year. That's a hard thing to the injuries, right,

(28:00):
and he got it in April, Like that affects your
whole year. And I fully understand that, but I don't
think that you can just say, well, he was injured,
He's gonna be the same guy next year because he
doesn't have the same age factor. He's gonna be thirty
next year, and for catchers that can get a little scary.
Not everybody is j t ru Mutou or Salvador Perez.
He's only been a twenty homer catcher once in his career.

(28:24):
But I do think with his reputation, you can't put
him just next to a bunch of the younger guys
of like that we think are going to be potentially
good to great and just say yep, that's all equal,
because Seaw Murphy has been doing it for a while,
so I think that it is complicated in a good way, Jake.
Hence the name of our tier, because yeah, I wouldn't

(28:44):
be surprised at all if Sham Murphy comes out next
year and is the same guy that he was in
the two years prior. But I also wouldn't be shocked
if this injury hangover kind of leaks into next year
and maybe he just takes a step back into becoming
more of a league average offensive catcher, and that would
be totally fine too.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Oh Mets fan, job, what do you what do you mean?
Do you know Sean Murphy before last year was a
one to eighteen ops plus.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I don't even know what that means.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
He's got a gold glove.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
It was his batting average two fifty.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, okay, that boy nice enjoyer. I talk to me.
Sean Murphy's already on the board there, let's leave him.
I don't have proper thoughts with Sean Murphy yet because
I need to circle up on who will be joining
him on that row. I do think this is the

(29:40):
part of the program where we should just get rid
of trim the fat interesting. I just want to get
the Austin Hedges ro done with because I do think
these final three rows are the conversation. So I don't

(30:04):
want to end the episode with being like Corey Lee.
So with that Corey Lee from the White Sox, hey,
former top prospect, maybe it.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Clicks White Sox itis too, like maybe he yeah, like
you know, it's hard to put your best production up there.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
A Maya from the Cubs. Is he going to be
in a different conversation? I don't. I don't thinks so
my heartstrings. Is he getting hurt that there's another Amaya
in the league right now?

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Who's the other Amaya?

Speaker 1 (30:34):
There's a Jacob Amaya.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Oh, tp legend, negative war last year, tough, not.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
What you was, just kind of a block god.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
He is a block god. Doesn't really do anything else.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
It's just blocking. Amaya had an eighty two opus place
in the dirt. That's that's fine, Kybert Kybert.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah, So my original thing, like I didn't have this
named Austin Hedges. I had this named I Wish you
were Austin because Kyberd is not Austin Hedges. This whole
thing is that he's very limited defensively and his paycheck
is kind of fat because they did the whole early
extension thing when everybody was doing that with their young players.
I would be open to renaming this year because I

(31:14):
don't think all these guys fit that discriver, Like that's
kind of a disserviced Austin Hedges, who's like, wish you
were Hedges, the defensive god of catching in baseball.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yes, but it's also ignoring that Keibert Luiz can do
some things offensively, Like it's it's just a scope of it.
Kebert Ruiz for catchers, and dude, he's still young. He's

(31:44):
gonna be twenty six this year.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Right.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
He has forty two homers in the show, like.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
My thing that I get scared with is like Dodger's prospects.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Sure they get scary, it does, but I also think
just hasn't happened yet enough to.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Do you want to move help?

Speaker 1 (32:04):
He had no he had some horrific defensive numbers that
I think he actually addressed last year decently. That Okay,
maybe he was in the lab and that was his
focus all year and that's why the offense fell off.
Could I see a twenty six year old that's got
some serious MLB experience, Like if he hits a little
above his career numbers next year, you're going to see

(32:25):
him on the middle of the board. Yeah, so I
think I understand. And this company has a lot of
heartstring sauce and hedges I think on the bottom for now,
on the bottom spine for keeper. So that's rude, Nick
fortesh killer. Go look at the offensive profile from the
last year, Danny chance, is that going to be a

(32:49):
different conversation. I can leave him for now because sometimes
think he's a different conversation and might be right, Okay,
we have a little bit of a because he crushes his.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
Numbers aren't even that good?

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Campusano fell off last year, had a tough year him
and Elized Diaz. I don't know, let's just put him
at the bottom and forget it for real.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
I feel like he.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Is I mean, he's a top prospect, but it was bad.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Well what's what's our? What's our? Yeah, it was pretty bad.
Or tier above that is supposed to be. It's complicated,
not in a good way, right, Like.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Not excited about it. Yes, but I think there's gonna
be guys that they can say, like, hey, I if
we're ignoring everything except former top prospect ranking, me and
Campusano should not be on.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
This line O fifty games.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
Let's see.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
We'll see.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Let's see, let's.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Get to the more important conversation.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
Does anyone else jump out? I feel like if Campusano's
down there, that's kind of where bow Nailor belongs. And
I sort of had both of them in my head
and that next group before they very well go. I
mean Bo Naylor's Billan Naylor's last year was tough, seventy

(34:06):
three oh ps plus. I mean both are kind of prospects.
We know Bo Naylor's brother, but still young.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
I think I have them above that bottom tier.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Caampusano negative career war. Yes, how about it. I'm gonna
take Campusano off the board for now. Is there anyone
else that's an automatic bottom row?

Speaker 2 (34:25):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
No. Good, Okay, we trimmed that fat. Let's jump up
to the good, Averri Levine. It's two thousand and two.
Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated? Yeah? Yeah?
What was the other? Like? Hits Skater point.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
In two thousand and two? I was obsessed with Thomas
the tank Engine. I would our pop culture was different?

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Okay, Well, Avri Levine moved the needle. You know what
I'm saying. She's popular, Okay, populer that wicked. I have
a first name I think i'd suggest in here, okay,
Tyler Stevenson. Tyler Stevenson is an interesting case of things

(35:07):
and stuff. Not to get too analytical on you. Hey,
you want that, you want that prospect part of the resume.
He was there. You want a history of hitting at
different points. Twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, he hit
twenty twenty two, was shortened by injury. Twenty twenty three.

(35:29):
He's back and it was tough. Eighty five ops plus
buzz your girlfriend wolf. He bounces back last year one
hundred and thirty eight games a one to twelve ops plus,
which has him as a career one oh five ops
plus seven seventy ops. If you took out that one year,
I could really butter knife you and give you some

(35:51):
nice hitting stats. And I think defensively he profiled well
last year that Tyler Stevenson at age twenty eight is primed.
Former first round pick, had his bad baseball lump, he
recovered from it. There's a lot of reasons to like him.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, he's he feels like the kind of guy where
every year someone picks him is like, this dude is
going to shock people this year, and we've all kind
of been waiting for it because he has been good
for a long time now. Tyler Stevenson has been a
good catcher for five years. And I think that with him,
it's like, you know what he brings defensively, you know

(36:28):
what he can do offensively that it's like, well why
haven't why haven't we seen that? Like full one, the
full season where it's like do you remember Tyler Stevenson
twenty twenty five, Like do you remember that? Like with him,
it's just, yeah, I don't think he belongs in the
big beefy hope or nope tier that we're about to
dive into, because I do think like resume matters for Catcher,

(36:50):
like knowing what you're gonna get what certain guys does
matter to me, and like Tyler Stevens and I kind
of feel like at this point, you know what you
can get if he stays healthy. So I think having
it's weird having him and Sean on the same line.
It's a little weird.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
It feels a little uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
But like when you look at the numbers, it's not
that far apart. Like Sean Murphy's peaks are definitely higher,
but his value was a lot lower. And like Tyer
Stevenson's just kind of been steady Eddy for the Reds
for five years.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
That's where I guess I've been mentally putting together this
Avri Levine two thousand and two complicated row, and I
think that the company that Sean Murphy's gonna keep is
very rude to Sean Murphy, where all these other guys
are gonna have a very similar feeling, like the name
that I have to put up on the board because
the comments have already been angry and mentioned him is
Patrick Bailey because defensively, I mean, I don't know if

(37:39):
there's someone that goes toe to toe with him. That's
what the numbers tell you, and the eye test shows
the same things. Man go again, killing time at work today.
Watch the Patrick Bailey defensive taste or reel. It's like
it feels like you're unk talking about Benito Santiago or
some old defensive catching legend. He's made making special throws

(38:01):
in special plays that do change an impact a game,
and he's had times where he's hit that I think
for what you're looking for from a catcher, I think
Patrick Bailey has a conversation, especially with the rest of
like Sean Murphy needs to leave our heads for a second.
I think for everyone that ends up on this row,

(38:22):
I think Patrick Bailey is going to have a conversation
you hate him.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Though, Yeah, we're gonna need BBD input on this one.
I firmly disagree that he belongs with those other two.
I have a couple catchers that I have ahead of
him in this regard because they maybe do they do
less defense. Everyone on this list pretty much does less
defensively than Patrick Bailey, but offense matters. Consistency matters, and

(38:46):
Patrick Bailey hasn't demonstrated that yet. I think he's got
a little bit of a strikeout problem in twenty twenty
three a car near thirty percent. It got better last year,
and there's full reasonably that he can take another step
this year. But he does not have this resume as
Stevenson and Murphy in my mind, and there are guys
that are as young as him that have played longer

(39:08):
and hit way better. Like a guy that I think
belongs here, Gabby Moreno, Gabby Moreno brings things to defensive
I think Gabby's Gabby's now had three years of solid hitting.
Gabby did it in the playoffs, and that matters to me.
Whether it matters to you or not, you know, that's
to each their own. But three straight years being above
ly gaverage offensively and not by metrics, not that far

(39:29):
behind defensively. Like again, no one on this list does
what Patrick Bailey does defensively. Fully acknowledge that, But I
think Gabby is is way easier to place here than Bailey.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
I have Gabby on this line maybe, and maybe that's
how this can continue, because the company you keep I
have Logan Ohappy on this line. That's where I have
him had tilt.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
I I have him here too. It's weird the his
numbers last year didn't land in the place so that
I thought they would like before.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
I think when he came back end of the year.
It's let's check out his months. Think there's Patrick Bailey
split page is a wild look. He had an incredible
first half.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Horrible August. That's what hit a He hit below one
hundred in August.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
Right, that's Pastrick Bailey is one of those months. So
that's just where I want to.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Of that with him.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
I haven't I have him in hopeer note because you
hope that he can hit abovely gaverage because if he does,
he instantly enters the conversation of getting above guys like
j T and Salvey Bailey or OPI Bailey. Oh, I
think we know he can hit defensively. I think he's
a little bit more limited than the other guys.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
I like what I see.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, I mean I test that point. Nice, sure, you know,
come on alright with that.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Bailey is in a hoper note for me because he
has the chance to be the biggest jump on this
list when we do it again next year. If we
do it again, common down below if you like the tearless.
But I can't put a dude that's never been above
the average offensively any higher than that, because you know
there's plenty of guys you can point to that are

(41:11):
great defenders and below league gaverage hitters at the catching position.
Bailey is an extreme case because of how gifted he
is defensively and he is switch hitting I think right,
so he has things that you can get really excited about.
Plus he is young. But until I see it, I'm
gonna be kind of hard on him. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
Everything's been heard.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
It's an interesting combo.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
It's that's what you ask for interesting. And I do
have a little bit of Pirates fan. Pirates fans, well
talk about them in a second, Giants fans getting loud
about their guy that I think there's there's Giants fans
that think Patrick Bailey has a conversation for best catcher
in the game.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
And I think that conversation is there if he has
that that full season where he hits.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
And I think those people were saying that in Patrick
Bailey's first half last year when he was two eighty
three three point fifty four seven eighty four ops. Patrick
Bailey doing that, Yeah, he would have a conversation. The
problem is in the second half he was one seventy

(42:18):
two seventeen on base a lower slug to sixteen. He
was a four to thirty four ops for the second
half last year. So yeah, sometimes numbers don't lie that
I think you're right, it's a hope or nope that Hey,
Patrick Bailey, show us you can have a seven fifteen
ops for a full year and the conversation changes. But

(42:43):
he kind of hasn't shown us that. So, like he's
been the best defender in his time in the big
leagues by the metrics and everything great, which is great.
Him getting to be a league averager thereabouts hit or
would be a big jump like he is, he is
a distance away from that on the whole. I don't

(43:07):
think he's ill placed if we left him here. But
I'm I'm not against the slide down of the rest
of that tier. I've already moved pat to hope or nope.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
I'm just one final point. I don't want a dog
pile on Patrick Bailey. I don't want to. That's not
because he's a very exciting player, and he's you know,
he's torched my team a couple of times, so I
got some buy. Sure. Another catcher who is defensively gifted,
who had a seven sixty ops in the first half
and then tailed off in the second half is Freddy
for me, who is relatively the same age, brings similar

(43:39):
things to the table. Again, not as gifted defensively, but
it's a very similar case in my mind of like,
if Freddy for me had a full year offensively and
did it the whole year, we talk about him way differently.
But I think that there's something to just like name value,
prospect value, importance to the team, that Patrick Bailey gets

(44:00):
that edge and gets a little bit more conversation there,
whereas the case in twenty twenty four was kind of similar.
Great first half, lesser second half. So for Bailey, as
soon as we get that full year, I'll eat some
crow for sure for being too low on him. But
I'm a little low on Patrick Bailey.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
I think it's fair. I think it's fair. I love
the defense, I think the position should probably be judged
a little differently, But after seeing that second half, I mean,
that's you know, this is kind of the Okay, pirates fans,
I told you to turn your ears on. I'm sorry
because this isn't what I expected. Oh boy, Patrick Bailey

(44:38):
has a little key Brian Hayes vibes right now. Everyone
was like, oh dude, key Brian's the future, He's the best,
blah blah blah. And it's like, well, when you look
at those offensive stats.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
Kee Broyan kind of hurt me.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
There's a lot of there's a lot more negative than
positive that Hey, plain, Pat, give us that first half
for a whole year and it changes the whole conver station.
But you haven't done that.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
He Brian had the full year too, twenty three four
and a half, four player kind of bubbly gabbage opie, Like,
that's all I need from Patrick Bailey though.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Right right, That's just that's why Brian got love. It
was just tricky with other certain space man.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
They don't need him to be a great hitter. They
just need him to be, you know, a bat in
the lineup.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
That's it, is there anyone? I'm trying to think of
this as an honest almost like taking a step back
from stats for a second. I'm I'm building a video
game team and it's like, Okay, Tyler Stevenson, Sure, I'm
putting him middle bottom of the lineup, and I know
what I'm gonna get Gavin Moreno, hey, verse lefties, move

(45:39):
him up in the lineup, right. He's not so much
o happy? Kind of the same, does anyone Shy Angeliers?

Speaker 2 (45:46):
I think there's something interesting conversations here.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Schel Angeliers I think has an argument. Brian Jeffers kind
of does, but for some reason he's not sexy.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
So here, let me here's how with your catcher here. Yeah, well,
this is kind of going to go into what I'm
about to say, of like the way I'm viewing av
Olivie in two thousand and two, which is a funny sentence,
is the guys with resumes, the guys that have been
up for a few years, that have done it for
a few years, that have had great seasons in the past,

(46:18):
that you say, it's kind of complicated the way I
view them.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Where So, I guess the only thing I want to
twist on that is I just think there's a general
excitement that's different between these guys. In the next two.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
Columns, I have a lot of guys I'm excited for
in Hoper and Nope.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
Sure, Hope and Nope feels more negative than I think
the guys that are slated to OK. I guess there's
an excitement factor a little bit, and there's a floor factor. Yeah,
and maybe that's more of the distal.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
I think that's where the excitement comes from. Don't We
don't know what the floor and ceiling are yet with
a lot of these guys. Whereas so that Alvarez, No,
because I don't I don't know how bad or good
Alvi can become. Alvi has played discipline issues, Alvi had
a really bad stretch in the middle of the year,
But then you see what he can do and you
get excited.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
So that's hope, No, I guess that's what I'm he's
hope no. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
In the same way with Austin Wells, where they're young,
you get excited about what they can be. Like I
think a lot of Yankees fans are thinking Austin Wells
can be a massive part of the twenty twenty five team,
or he can be the same due that he was
last year, and that's still okay, but you want him
to be more right. And there's a lot of guys
that I think fall in that tier as well. The

(47:39):
one guy that I have above it and feel free to,
you know, have some discourse about it. Alejandro Kirk, the
king of framing and catching, has had a four war
season as a catcher, which is elite, but has taken
a step back offensively the past two years, and we

(48:01):
kind of don't know where he's at. In the same
way of like, if Kirk has that twenty twenty two season,
I think we feel very differently about the Blue Jays lineup,
where it's kind of kind of feels like they're a
piece or two away, and a lot of guys had
down years the past couple of years. If Kirk can
be that guy. In mind, you Kirk is going to
be twenty six this year, so youth factor applies there

(48:23):
as well. You know what he brings defensively, If he
can just get back to a little bit above league average,
he becomes that plus plus player again, the plus plus
kind of player that you've seen Sean Murphy, be that
you've seen Tyler Stevenson, be that you've seen Gaby Marino by.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
Yeah, I'm I'm struggling with that a little bit, because
twenty twenty two is the outlier, and the last two
years are pretty eerily similar. Again, like you mentioned with age,
I guess it gets tricky for me, like and this
is where it's interesting with the New York goggles on,
Like Alvarez gets me pretty hyped, and I know it

(49:02):
feels like there's a lot more in there. And he's
still so young. How old is he?

Speaker 2 (49:06):
He's young. I thinks maybe the youngest catcher on this
list to be considered a starter. I think he's twenty.
He was twenty two last year. It's gonna be twenty
three this year.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Austin Wells was really good for a lot of the season.
Austin Wells ran out of steam and I think it
was his first year fully catching. This is a guy
they didn't know if he'd stick at catcher. That he
had a really tough September. If you if September never happened,
the season ended August that game, the season ended August thirty. First,

(49:38):
here's Austin Wells stat line two fifty nine three forty
eight A seven ninety five. Ohps.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
It's very good.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Former first round pick. The question when he was coming
up was his defense, and he passed everyone's eye test.
He was very solid best the year. He ended up
becoming the defensive catcher over Jose Travino, who has a
player glove in the bag. But his arm was in
a funky spot last year, so that's a little bit
of an outlier. So the the thing with Austin Wells

(50:09):
that we've discussed a lot at this point, it was
a bookend. The bookends were bad. He had a tough April,
tough September. In the middle, he was great. He was
their cleanup hitter. He was and it was right. Yes,
he was protecting Soto and judge that he is twenty
five years old. There is the game of baseball that

(50:31):
I've represented so far that if Austin Wells full season
stats take a step back, it's not as exciting. If
his full season numbers take a step up, which there's
a lot of statistical reasons you could believe that he's
really exciting that I don't know, like I'm trying to

(50:51):
get should him and o'hapi be on.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
I think what we've learned is we need a new tier.
We need something above Hope or note below aver In
two thousand and two, or maybe above both of them,
because I don't I don't have complicated feelings about Welles
or Alvarez. I'm just excited for them, you know what
I mean? Right, whereas like Hope or Nope and Ava
Levine two thousand and two kind of have its complicated

(51:14):
attached to them. So like, is there like a like
a twenty twenty six Daisy Hunting tier or something like
that where they still feel like they're a year away
from really taking that step but you're still you know
it's there and you're excited for it, but you understand
you got to be a little patient. They're young.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
I guess, yeah, I guess what's hitting me in the
face right now? Like you mentioned Bailey, everything we talked about,
what's it the troll? Is that as the troll Austin Wells,
Alejandro Kirk, Joey Barton not right now?

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Pale sample size is gonna be yeah, young and really
hit last year.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Ifelie he feels like with the news, he's more than
a lot of these guys.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
He was a first round pick by the Braves. He
was a big, big part of that trade.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
What do he finished with twenty nine homers?

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Nine homers a one to eleven ops plus and he's
gonna be twenty seven, you'll be p It's tough, yeah,
but he's he's a slug catcher. He's kind of like
diet Yeiner Diaz a little bit. In my mind. It's
four point fifty as a catcher. That's really good. So
we need a new I think we need a new
tier above Hope and up and below Avril Lavine two

(52:33):
thousand and two, and I kind of like twenty twenty
six days even thing. I'd be opened to something else.
But it feels like there at next year's tier list,
any number of these guys could move up.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Very okay, So this Patrick Bailey, Bailey.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
The New York Boys, and Shay New York and maybe
Logan o'happy.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
I think, Ohopy, Yeah, how far is Gabby Moreno from o'happy?
I guess that's what I don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
I have him decently above.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
He has I think.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Two oh Hobby has never had a little bit. Moreno
had a four war year at age twenty four as
a catcher.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
In ninety seven games. He's on a pretty similar pace
last year. So okay that that feels.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
I think he's firmly up there with the other two.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
So Gabby Stevenson and Sean Murphy currently in a roll
yep interesting.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Lands in it. It visually looks weird, and then when
you take ten minutes to think it through, I think
it makes sense.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Alejandro Kirk, I think he's with the Fellas. I think
he's I know that four war I know that four
war seasons.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
And maybe he's hope or nope, I don't know. We're
kind of getting favor with him though.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
If he doesn't do it, it's it's no, like you're.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
He is Nope. That's three below average seasons in a row.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
When you said that he was kind of the same
guy the past two years, that ring true in my
head of like, oh yeah, he had the same year
two years in a row.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Yeah, but it was also very young. That was his
age twenty five season. It was a two war year
as the best framer, like.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
I put them, we can put him with the young cats.
Why not? He is he is a young cat.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
He is a young cat. A couple of trolls in there.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Like it's in there somewhere, tiers.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
If I'm a Red Sox fan, I'm screaming Connor Wong
should be with them.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
I can't.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
I can feel right.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
I can't even think about that.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
It feels a little weird. But Connor Wong was very
good last year.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
But he's gonna be twenty nine. Okay, I have him
in Hoper Nope.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
Okay, Well, let's start really sending some darts here.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
I think that's right.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
This new tier has made it a lot easier for me.
I needed a separator.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
I don't think you're gonna like this. I think jonah
Heim is Hoper.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Nope, I can agree with that. Ye yeah, I can
agree with that too. He was one of the more
interesting ones to talk about because you zoom out and
you say, well, this dude was a switching and catcher
with near twenty home runs who hit in the middle
of the lineup on a World Series winning team and
showed up in the playoffs, And then you look at
everything around that year, which is essentially three full seasons

(55:07):
of baseball, and none of it is particularly great. That
you can only really view that twenty three season as
an outlier. And him's gonna be thirty this year, So
what is he? We're going to find out If he's
league average offense, you have the hope. Yeah, but it's

(55:28):
very close to a nope. So I think that's pretty fair.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
Yeah, I guess. And maybe something that can help me
deal with these themes a little better is like, if
you were bad last year, that you should feel that. Sure,
Sean Murphy was.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Really bad, that's why he moved down something.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
A lot of good Sean Murphy in my head. And again,
oh bleak. Injury can be brutal for a baseball player,
that there can be egg on the face, but it
sometimes baseball also happens the other way that.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Okay, So how I'm rationalizing that tier is if they
are good to great next year, I'm not that surprised, like,
you know what they're capable of, Sean Murphy, Stephenson, Gabby,
the young guys below. If they're great next year, it's like, wow,
they did it, Like they're they have become a great

(56:18):
catcher with Alvarez and Wells and those cow Bailey great
example of like he did it. He's a hitter.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Now, it's that league average offensive season.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
It's more of a surprise if those guys do it.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Okay. So Langelier's is with all the young the young
cats row, Yeah, I don't think he should be with
Stevenson Murphy, and Gabby who he might be if he
played on a different team.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
But last year that's the first good year.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Yeah yeah, okay, okay, okay, hope or nope, where's Ivan
Herrera go? His offensive stats are actually pretty nice see
up there too, I think so. I think there's questions
about his defense, but his offensive profile at age twenty
four is really nice. So I have no qualms with it.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
If the Cardinals ended up a good team last year,
that would have been one of the cooler stories of Like,
they signed this catcher to a massive deal, they immediately
move him off the position, and then they just found
another young catcher who stepped in and was great offensively
at least that. Yeah, give him a full season, see
if he can take the step. You know, he came

(57:39):
in halfway through the year, Like that's that's kind of
a hard He was the backup that he became the starter,
but he earned that role, like he hit his way
to that role.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
I have good news and bad news. I just looked
at Jake Rogers stat page, and unfortunately he is the
bottom line. I love I mustache and some playoff moments.
Jake Rogers on the bottom.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Line, damn it. Well, he had a damn it.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
I'm sorry. He could like a likable guy, but I
think I have a fairly easy hope or nope. I
think that's where I want to put Joey Bart. He
did a good year. You can get excited, but if
it doesn't. If you're a Pirates fan, you are a
little jazzed up about it. But if he doesn't do it,

(58:30):
then it's like, all right, we're back to where we.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
Were a year ago.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
That's fine. He went nuts. He went nuts this year
and it was fun.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
I think I'm with you because it's it's less than
it's half a year Sadie Games. We spent four years
waiting for him to become the successor to Buster Posey.
It never happened. It felt like a nope, And now
he's given you back the hope a little bit. But
there's also a world where he comes out and he

(58:59):
has a bad April in the Pirates are like, all right, shit,
we gotta figure something out of Catcher.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
I want to finish placing the names because he has
a twenty twenty five Avril Levine. It's complicated. I mean,
Bart could have that in spades. He could also be
Hoper Nope, because change of scenery is a real thing.
He's a number two overall pick.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Is that just one tier?

Speaker 1 (59:24):
Hope? Nope? And Avril Levine?

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Is that just one tier?

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Where's Ryan Jeffers. That's one I've been trying to figure out.
I think he's Hope and Nope, and it's actually fair.
For now, I'm interested. I'm interested in bringing them together.
Ryan Jeffers he had a paller twenty twenty three. He
had a fine year last year, but like this year
is actually the season where it's like, can you bank

(59:48):
on Ryan Jeffers being your starting catcher or no? Or
is he just a lefty masher And that's a fine
role to be in the last two years.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
He is a tough one to play.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
He said, years are kind of nice. Last year's month
by month, it's like three awesome months.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
He was five war based in twenty twenty three, which,
like three of these guys in the list have done
right pace, not full season, but still.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
He's weird, right, really weird. I'm fine putting him next
to Jonah him for now, like I think that's I
think that's okay. I think that's okay. Danny Jansen him
below O'Connor.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Wong's kind of tough. I have them on the same
road right now, Jeffers or Jansen.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Jeffers I have on the same Jansen. I believe we're
slating in below. Jansen's gotta be yeah, I think so.
I think he is. It's complicated and it's not exciting.
He's kind of I think he's kind of the quintessential.
It's complicated.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Twenty twelve. He might hit, he might.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
If he does, he'll have his scootery. Like at one
point he just made the turn like I'm gonna try
to hit home runs and he kind of can't.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Yeah, so that's fair that that works.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Okay, So now the only two names I don't have
on the board are Bo Naylor and Luis Campusano. Who
did he play Stallings? Oh? I have him in twenty
twenty five averl Aves.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yeah, that got weird. Why why was he so good
last year?

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
Old? But he's nasty now, I don't Sometimes catchers just
do this. He like won the Gold Glove with Pittsburgh
and that was cool. He went to Miami and was
a disaster.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
I mean he was so bad offensively, and then he
went to Colorado.

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Right which there's some connotations with that, right, and it's
all due respect to Jacob's songs like cool, Awesome, Happier
Here You're not on the bottom road.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Dude, did he sign somewhere?

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
I think there was a time in Jago Rocks. Yeah,
there was a time in Jacob Stalling's career. I think
he was hoping to be on the bottom row and
be on the list and he is not. That gold
glove pirates here is at thirty one. He was hoping
he's on the second row.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
So it's a good contract.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
You're missed right now.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
I just I didn't James Staling's. It's just another case
of the Rockies did something good and why can't they
do more good things?

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
That's for another day. Campusano Bowl Nadler seeing all these
other names on the board.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Is campus on at the bottom?

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Hey man, I like a good profile. I like. I
think it's bad, dude.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
I think he's at the bottom.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Like I. And this was one where is Elias Diaz
gonna win the job from him?

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
I don't. I don't think that's a crazy thing to say.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
He's twenty six ninety career ops. But there's your outlier
forty nine games, yeah, I think he's at the bottom.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
I think he's at the bottom, and I.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Think Bo is too. I think if we didn't know
his brother.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
That's an interesting if Bo had a different last name,
how we feel about.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Him if we just knew him as bow Bo's story
at well, it'll be too attacked. At the top of
the list.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
Good in twenty twenty three, he was bad, he was
bading bad. Last year's I have him above the bottom
tier if you've if you've shown me anything, I have
you above the bottom tier.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Is he that different than Campusano though?

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
I think so. His offensive ceiling was higher. He played
with I don't know. He wasn't a platoon, right, was.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
He last year?

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
Either of the years?

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
I mean last year he played one hundred and twenty
three games, So.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
I think he has that going for him. Camposano should
have been better because he was a platoon and he wasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Jiggy Higgey mode though Higgy mode, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
I don't feel that passionately about it. If you want
to put them bottom too, I'm not gonna die on
that hole.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
Let's put it into my head. It feels like they
should be twenty twenty five, but because it's kind of
like a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
But it has a chance to look really bad. It's
my only thing. It has a chance to look terrible.
If he's the bottom Tierny ends up being you know,
the pace that he was on in twenty twenty three.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
I guess here's the situation we found ourselves in. We
think their fans have talked themselves into those two. We
like ourselves at the top of the board.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
Oh I love our first four tiers.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Perfect big Dumper, Adley Yiner and Will Smith. On the
second tier, JT and Salvey paired together is beautiful. That's artwork, yep,
Avril Levine two thousand and two. It's complicated. Sean Murphy
again hit hard for last year, but like, I think
that's the one that could hurt us the most currently,

(01:05:05):
but we will see Stephenson and Gabby kind of looking
for that full year bonafide. We are with the upper
echelon below that our guys saying the same thing, just
with less of a resume as Stevenson who's hit Gabby,
who's done both, Sean Murphy obviously, Bailey Alvarez well as
Ohoppi Kirk Langelier's Herrera that below we have the two rows,

(01:05:33):
Heim Jeffers, Connor Wong Stalling's Bart Janssen. In the nicest way,
I would much rather have Heim Jeffers. So I want
to split. Yeah, I think those are two different tiers.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Can I counter in this negotiation?

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Fine with the split. Move Jeffers up to twenty six days.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Really you want him with the kids? You think Jeffer's
got some in there? He might.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
I think he does.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
He does, He does feel like he can. You can
guarantee a little more from him than these guys. I
guess where I'm getting tripped up, which is somewhere you started.
Jonaheim was bad last year. It's tough because if you
were building a team and I said, hey, would you
rather have jonah Heim or Ryan Jeffers, the instinct is

(01:06:32):
to jump to Jonahi right the name value switch hitting Well,
Ryan Jeffers has been good. You think you're right Pegs Runners, I.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Think I think he does. I don't think it's a
disservice to him because he got leaned on for the
Twins last year. He was their best hitter, He was
their three hitter for a while. Trav was singing his
praises every week.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
He's getting some like lead off against lefty days.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Yeah, like they kind of you know, they put a
lot was put on him, So you're right, and when
him was good, not a lot was put on him.
That was a deep lineup where he was protected. Yeah,
Jeffers was not protected either last year.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
Is going to be protected next year?

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
Probably? What's in my head? Yeah, So are we willing
to put Jonaheim and Connor Wong in the same row
as Stallings, Bart and Jansen?

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
No? I think I think we keep it separate. I
think that's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Okay, so we basically the only thing left to do
is rename the kids line and yeah, you've been going
twenty twenty six days.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
Yeah, I'm not married to it. I can talk.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
That was kind of just a place on the starting point.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Yeah, I don't know what's accurate.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
God, because they're they're all.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
They're all young.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
Is this they're all young? And Jeffers now.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Yeah, Jeffers is the exception, But I think he is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
This a Twitter fight.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
It's because people are gonna get really mad at Bail
a little bit. People are get really mad at Bailey
being there.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
At Bailey.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
I still think it's fair that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
I'm getting I've been getting in in Austin Wells fights.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
I've gotten an Alvarez fight before.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
I think it's Twitter fights for good reason.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Angels fans love o Hoppy James fans love Kirk.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
Twitter fights for good reason. I can see why you
would love your guy like that was the other reason
that we started doing the tearless. It was because you
watch your guy every day and you go, that guy's
the best. I love that guy. That to actually lay
him out on a neutral field, well, this guy might
be better. That's perfect, And I could see why would
you why you would Twitter fight for any of these guys.

(01:08:47):
But you can't really elevate him above the others unless
you're you're locked into defense. Bailey would have an argument
the other guys. Yeah, they're all in a pretty similar
wavelength that I feel pretty okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
The way I look at Bailey is there's one guy
on that eight man tier that has never been abovely
garbage offensively. It's Bailey.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
It's Bailey, and it's Patrick Bailey. Okay, So it seems
like the final tears Baby Brow in the Butt, Daisy
Hunting Chasing forty Avril Levine, two thousand and two Twitter
fights for a good reason, hope or nope? Avril Levine,
twenty twenty five. It's complicated. Austin hedges at the bottom

(01:09:40):
of the category. Yeah, I guess if there was one
thing I could could tweak, I think I would put
Sean Murphy with real Mudo and Salvey. But the way
the tears are laid out.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
He's not chasing forty.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
He's not, he's not has been. There's there's different ways
you can chop up his resume that he has the
wand for this year. Yeah, and he can change it,
and he can he can make us feel foolish, and
I do hope you're right, jolly. I hope that Campusano
or Naylor, one of them, one of them makes us

(01:10:16):
be like, well, that's right. They had a they had
the profile, they were young. It came together. But you
gotta do it to do it. So any final.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Thoughts, I'd still move Bo up from the bottom tier.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
You can do that on your own time. Thank you
for joining us for the Catcher Tier. List enjoy it.
What did you like? What did you hate? Please comment below,
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