October 30, 2025 • 41 mins
Chris McKinnell, one of the world's most respected paranormal investigators (grandson of Ed & Lorraine Warren), joins JoJo to discuss some of his most harrowing cases and encounters, growing up in the Warren family, The Conjuring series, and more!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Paranormalist. It's Jojo, right, and
I'll keep this intro short. This might be my favorite
podcast I've ever done. His name is Chris McKinnel, and
he'll explain. But he's got some very famous grandparents who
taught him a lot, and then he's expanded on what
he's learned in the paranormal field. His grandparents are Ed
(00:21):
and Lorraine Warren. His name is Chris McKinnel. Oh my god,
wait till you hear this. I call this episode Chris McKinnel.
The Warren Files enjoy Jojo on the radio present Paranormal Normal.
(00:42):
Chris McKinnel. It is so good to finally meet you.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I am doing great, Jojo. It's pleasure to meet you.
Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Absolutely. I'm going through, you know, just scrolling Instagram the
other day and somehow your your page just you know,
pops up in my feed. I'm like, oh my god,
how I never talked to this guy a DM do
you think? And well, maybe he'll see this, maybe you won't.
About twenty minutes later, boom, we're best friends on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So there's that you made me laugh because you asked
for my PR guy.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Okay, yeah, you know sometimes if you talk with you know,
if you don't include the PR guy, they get all,
you know, bent out of shape. So that I did
the you know, the usual there. But hey, Chris, you're
in what I'm sitting here in Burbank, Burbank, California. As
we talk here, you are in your aware I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
In a sunsee.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Oh wow, what brought you out there?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, I travel around the world and I've been here
a year and a half. Now. I go to places
so I can learn how the paranormal manifests and different cultures,
how those cultures deal with it. I'm here to learn.
I'm a I'm a I'm a student for life.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
All right. If you don't know the backstory, let me
give a quick quick run in here. Chris McKinnel. He
has some very famous grandparents in the paranormal space. Probably
the most famous grandparents in the paranormal world you can
popossibly have. Your grandparents are Ed and Lorraine Warren. I mean,
if you're in the paranormal community, you know exactly who
(02:07):
they are. I guess my first question is when did
you realize that my grandparents aren't the typical grandparents. There's
something different.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Actually, it's my very first memory. I was maybe three
years old and it was nighttime and my two year
old sister locked me in the museum. Yeah shut I mean,
I don't get me wrong. I was in there all
of maybe a minute or two, but I was screaming
my ass off, looking at that tiger head staring at
(02:38):
me from the table, and my grandfather came running out
of the office and got me out of there immediately.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Oh my god. All right, so let me just jump
into that. That was one of my questions a little farther down.
But we're talking about the Warren Occult Museum. Which is
which is or was? I'm not sure in their house.
We've seen it in all the movies. We'll talk about
the movies later. I know the movies are, you know,
a dramaticized version of what reality. But in this war
On occult museum in their house, you were locked in there.
(03:05):
What did you come face to face with? Because that
museum is bigger than life for a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You know, it's just a it's an art studio that
because my grandparents were artists, and it's attached to the
house at this point in history, it wasn't even attached.
But all I saw were ghoulish things hanging on the
wall and that tiger skin that I will remember for
the rest of my life. And my grandfather told me
the story of that skin. He said it had been
(03:32):
taken this tiger had been taken over by a black
magic user in India, and it had murdered dozens of villagers.
They couldn't kill it with regular bullets, but when they
used special blessed bullets, it also killed the magic.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
User whoa Okay, obviously we know about the Annabelle doll.
That's probably the most famous artifact in this museum, and
the museum, to my understanding, is basically artifacts they've collected
from their investigations. Sure of faalseones no.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
No half and half. Other things were things that were
put in there for educational purposes. I worked with the
Peace Corps in Africa, and when I came back, I
had fetish dolls and touring daggers and all sorts of
stuff to give my grandfather. It's now sitting in the museum,
not attached to any particular case, but because they were
good for teaching people I.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Still can't get out of my head. As a kid,
you were locked in there, I would have and I
think most people would have just freaked out.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I was afraid of the dark until I was sixteen
because of it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah wow, all right, let's back to the Annimel doll.
Is it in fact locked in a glass case inside
the museum, the famous Annibel doll?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, at that point it didn't. It wasn't in the
museum at all, and probably up until nineteen seventy four,
it wasn't contained, It wasn't bound. My grandparents were always learning.
That's something people don't understand about them. When you're watching
those old videos and reading their old books, you're only
getting a snapshot in time. You're not seeing where they
progressed to. This is a field research, you know. It's
(05:01):
not a static thing. It's always growing. And they had
it sitting in a rocking chair for years.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
My god, all right, do me a favor, give me
a story, maybe two, on the museum. What have you experienced?
What what comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Oh? Sure you remember that big seven foot tall demon statue?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I sure do.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, that's actually from one of my cases. Shut up, Yeah, now,
that was one of mine I was in. It was
in Newtown, Connecticut. It was a pregnant woman and her husband.
She claimed he was coming under possession, so my grandfather
sent me and my partner out there. We felt there
was something to it, so we decided to spend the night.
At the middle of the night, the woman starts screaming.
My partner is like shaking me. She's screaming. Screamed, I know,
(05:45):
get out of my way. I pushed him out of
the way. I ran across the room. This guy was
levitated over this pregnant woman. You saw this, I listen.
I've seen levitation three times in my life. Shut off
of human beings. I ran. I tackled him out of midair.
I was a lot younger. We hit the bed on
(06:06):
the other side of this woman rolled off. I ended
up on top of him on the floor. My partner
came up behind me, throwing holy water and screaming, and
by the powers, the descrit like a man did be
gone and we were able to get him out of it. Now,
this place was right next door to a funeral home.
One morning, we were leaving the house and there were
four men in a car waiting for us. Now I'd
(06:27):
grown up in Newtown, Connecticut, so I knew the roads
we were being chased. I went booking through these back
roads and we escaped them. But a while later, I
can't tell you how long, I don't remember. Maybe it
was a few weeks, a month, whatever, there was a
hunter way in back in the woods from the house.
He came across that statue in front of a big
(06:47):
stone that had wax and it looked like maybe some blood.
It had been used as some kind of makeshift alter.
And the theory we've come up with is those men
were Satanists who were trying to use any kind of
Necroman energy that was in the funeral home, and somehow
there was a spillover to this man in the other house.
He was being affected by it because he was too sensitive.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Okay, those kind of stories just blow my mind, just bomb.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, that was a hell of a thing. It really was.
The police came, they saw the statue and they turned
it over to my grandfather.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Now, the statue, when you put something like that in
the museum, does it still have a power to it
or is it just contained to the museum, or how
do you stop it from doing that? Again?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You're supposed to bind these things. Now, whether or not
that's still being done, I'm not sure, but you're supposed
to put rituals around it to bind the energies, to
keep it so it's in the object itself. My grandfather
always said, do not touch anything, do not challenge anything,
and everything's fine. If you do touch anything, tell him
(07:47):
immediately so he can spiritually cleanse you. It was something
we took very, very seriously.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Is there anything you are still afraid of to this
day in the museum.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
No, I'm like a snake handler, I know, to be respect,
I'm more afraid for the public than I am of
my own personal safety. Plus I don't go in there,
you know. I'm South America for goodness sake.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I wonder if, like the people in the neighborhood, you know,
kids are curious. Oh yeah, dude, I'm sure they knock
on the door and try to do they get a lot.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Of that, Listen. I lived with my grandmother the last
year and a half of her life, and I remember
one night after one of the Annabel movies came out,
probably in twenty eighteen. Two kids had taken an uber
from New Jersey from directly from the movie to the
house at night and they were clamoring all over the
house trying to get in to see Annabel.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I assume you guys call the police, and oh no.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
We don't have to the police are always watching that house.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
All all right, Well let's segue, you know, nice segue there, Chris,
into the Conjuring series. We were talking off you know,
off air. I guess you could say you love the series.
You know, but people, we hope are sophisticated enough to
know that it's not a documentary. There's a crazy Hollywood
license they've taken to make it dramatic, and they've done
a great job of it. It's phenomenal, but it's not
(09:05):
exactly a doc like you said, So your thoughts on the.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Series, Yeah, they're great.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I love Vera and I love Patrick. They're amazing as actors.
They're just fantastic. Vera in particular, she and my grandmother
loved each other, and Vera I respect because she respected
my grandmother and wanted to do a good job for her.
She's a very earthly, you know, spiritual person, and my
grandmother responded well to that. But yeah, the movies are fantasies.
(09:33):
They're look my grandparents loved each other very very much.
They were my heroes, but they weren't superheroes. My grandmother
did have abilities, and very amazing abilities. I blew my
mind when I would watch her sometimes. But even she said,
the best psychic in the world is only right sixty
percent of the time. So I always caution people. Don't
(09:53):
bet your life on a psychic, you know, don't change
your life without evidence. Be careful. The movies, well, let's
go with Annabel first, the Annabell movies. Annabel's a real thing,
and it is deadly, but it isn't what people think
it is. And those movies are not based on any
reality whatsoever at all. And the Nun doesn't exist. That's
a James One creation. But Frenchie did the character Frenchie
(10:18):
in the Nun. That's Maurice Theild And that's another one
of my cases.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Which I'm going to bring that up later for sure.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Hey, just to stay with the Conjuring series that well,
the latest one, The Conjuring Last writes the Smirl Family Haunting,
which is what it's based on. You. You were the
first investigator to go into the house before your grandparents.
You gathered info and basically, to my understanding, presented it
to your grandparents. So this is your case, you know,
in a way, What can you tell me about you know,
when you first entered the house, what what caught your eye?
(10:45):
What made what made you believe them?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Well, it's not fair to say it was my case.
I was just the first one in there.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Okay. You know, my.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Grandparents used a lot of investigators. I just happened to
be the ones they were using then. And I went
in with a kid from college who had no idea
what we were going to be facing. Boy, and we
went in simply with a cassette recorder. First thing we
did is try to capture anything we could. And I
caught pig noises in the bedroom. Yeah like that, and
(11:14):
sorry to your sound engineer, but we would hear tappings
and other noises coming from the basement. And then I
was in the master bedroom and I was just praying
and the bedroom door slam shut. So I started praying
to Padre Peel because he's somebody that my family thinks
(11:35):
of as our patron. Scene and the whole room smelled
like roses. I was like, all right, we're in good,
good hands here. Everything's fine, But one night, I was
walking up the stairs, and this is something people have
a hard time believing. And I don't blame anybody who
hasn't lived through this, and I'm not trying to convince
anybody of my life experience. I'm just saying it happened.
(11:56):
I was walking up the stairs. Missus s Merle was
at the top of the stairs with poor Doug, my
friend from college, and all of a sudden, I get
woozy and I'm like rocking and I'm floating over the stairs.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
What gun?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, and they reached out and grabbed me immediately and
pulled me right in. I couldn't tell you how long
I was in the air, But it turns out, and
I didn't know this until I was just doing some
research myself, mister and Missus Smirle were also levitated from
their beds at a point, and one of their daughters
was thrown down the stairs.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Wow. So yeah, you get this kind of info, and
clearly it's time to bring in the big guns when
you see and feel and experience something like that. So
what do you do with this info?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I immediately called my grandfather and told him what was
going on, and he had me go in for a
couple more weekends and gather more information. But that was
the bulk of what I got over that time. And
although there was one weird thing, Missus Smirle told me
that just like within weeks of my being there, they
had discovered partially digested twin that she had absorbed in
(13:02):
the womb that had become this fibrous mass in her
belly and they had to remove it. Now, that's not
unusual really to absorb a fetus, but to have that
kind of a hairy mass in your belly, that's pretty unusual.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
So how do you think that played into the case?
Is there a tie there?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
You know, here's the thing about the paranormal. If you
try to always say you understand everything and you know
the answers, you're not. You don't, and you have to
accept that there are going to be times you don't
know what you're dealing with. I was only twenty one
years old. I didn't even know the questions to ask
back then. I had no idea if I could, that
(13:41):
would be one of the cases I would love to
go back and reinvestigate properly. Having said that, once a
case is finished, I don't believe in going back. I
think these people who go into the conjuring house and elsewhere,
they're opening doors that have been closed. They're specifically going
in there to try to get something to manifest. I
think that's incredibly dangerous because my grandmother taught me like attracts,
(14:04):
Like the energy you put out is what you will attract,
and unfortunately the paranormal can attract a lot of broken people.
You don't want that energy in those places.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Once you brought this info back to your grandparents, then
they did what they did. You know, were you part
of that investigation as well? Were you there watching what
was going.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
On with the smirls?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yes? No.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Once my grandparents got involved, I was done. I saw
the publicity, I saw how crazy it all got, and
I have to admit it was something that made me
very uncomfortable. But I also understood they were using publicity
kind of like as leverage against the church to make
them work. We had run into so many problems dealing
with the church, the Catholic Church in particular, because even
(14:47):
though the Pope may say this is real and we
need to work with people and help them, local bishops
can be very very careful and more like politicians about it,
and sometimes you just have to guilt them to getting help.
And that's why my grandparents did it that way. Not
every time, but when they had to.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's a shame because that's the whole point of the
church as far as I see it, to help someone, right.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
It should be Yeah, but that's not been my experience.
We had a case where an exorcist who called himself
father anonymous. O, no, are you father A? We had
to call him father A. He said to me point blank,
if the public finds out about this case, I will
walk away. The church is more important than any family.
I was like, boy, you don't seem to understand the teachings.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Of Christ, and you think it'd be the exact opposite exact.
You mentioned the word exorcist and we were talking off
camera a moment ago. Once again and this has sort
of taking a left turn, but you met the real
exorcist from well, the movie The Exorcist was based on
a true story. You met the real exorcist that that
was based on, correct.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I met one of three There were three of exorcists,
and I happened to meet one when I was fourteen
years old.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
What was that experience?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Like? Oh, he came up to us. I was on
a tour with my grandparents, lecture tour and he came
up at the end of it and just introduced himself.
The most, the sweetest, most humble man imaginable, And it
taught me to approach this with humility. This isn't about me.
It's not about us at all. You know, it's God,
(16:17):
And if anything goes right, you can thank God. If
anything goes wrong, you can blame me.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Wow, we'll get to see some more of the terrifying
cases in a few seconds. But you mentioned prior to this,
some paranormal cases aren't scary, you know, some have Like
I think you said, you had spirits of family members
visit you. I think you said. I know this is
probably a sensitive story, and I wouldn't bring it up
if you hadn't brought it up to me, But your
fiance who passed away, give me whatever stories you care
to share. I would love to hear some of those.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Oh. The truth is, but more often than not, your
fear is caused by not understanding what you're dealing with.
You're dealing with the unknown, and you immediately are afraid.
And I understand that, but it's usually just somebody trying
to get your attention. They're taking your keys, they're jiggling
the doorknobs. I had a case recently here in Paraguay
where the woman contacted me because she was sure she
(17:05):
had demons in her house. They were rattling her doors
and opening the doors and knocking, and I went in
and I worked in the house twice, and it turned
out it was her father and he was warning her
that her ex boyfriend was dangerous. It turned out he
certainly was very dangerous. He had threatened to kill me
and this woman's mother if she didn't pay him money. Wow. Yeah,
(17:29):
it just goes to show that love continues even after
you die. Diana my fiance when my son was eight
years old. Diana and I had fallen in love. She
had three kids, who bought a house together. We were
ready to move in and the Sunday before Thanksgiving she
collapsed and it was discovered she had non Hodgkinson unphoma,
(17:50):
and cancer can be really hard on a relationship. I
wanted to take care of her, she wanted to be
with her mother. It caused stress. So at the end
of the last two weeks of her life, if we
didn't talk too much. I was actually writing her a
letter saying cancer is not going to kill you. Don't
let it kill our love.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
The moment she died, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
She died within two hours of my mother's birthday. The
weird coincidence is her father died on my birthday and
she was born or my son was born on her birthday. Wow,
I know, really weird. But she came to me the
night before the funeral. My grandmother and my mother and
my son were in the master bedroom. I was in
(18:30):
my son's room. I was still awake. She came to me,
and I'm trying to tell her how much I love her,
how much I missed her, and she's saying, sh it's okay,
it's okay, don't worry about it. It's all fine. But
I wouldn't stopped. I'm crying, and I could hear my
mother in the hallway and I call out to her
and she thinks I'm talking in my sleep, so she
doesn't come in. I wanted her to see this. But
(18:51):
about two weeks later, I was in the master bedroom
by myself. No one was hong pitch black, couldn't see
a thing, and I hear footsteps coming down the hallway.
They woke me up heavy footsteps. My fiance was a
heavy woman. And I opened my eyes and there was
a mirror on the back of the bedroom door, and
she was propped up on one elbow, looking down at
(19:12):
me from behind me, with a smile on her face.
And I was like, oh, no, I'm not going to
watch you leave again. And I know it doesn't make sense.
I closed my eyes. I didn't want to see her
leave again. And she got right in front of me
and she said, very clearly, I love you, and she
physically kissed me on the lips physically, And that was
(19:35):
the very last time she ever visited. It was unfinished business.
She needed me to know because we weren't talking because
of the stress of her dying. She needed me to
know how she felt.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That's about a special as a gets right there.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh it doesn't get better. I mean, my grandmother has visited,
but that's not even as good as Diana.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
If I may ask, when you see something what her specifically?
Does she look like me or you alive? You know?
Like so like if you didn't know she had passed
and you saw what she looked like, you would think
she was perfectly fine, right or not? Well that clear.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Here's the thing that was made it unusual. In this
particular case. I shouldn't have been able to see anything
in the mirror because it was too dark, but I did.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Huh, so she had Yeah, she had a goal to her.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I guess, right, not that I could say, but I
see her, so I suppose.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
But here's another weird thing that happened yesterday. Now this
doesn't happen very often, so this is really weird. I
have an uncle in Adelaide, in Australia, and he has
this wonderful dog, and so I see his dog walk
by him behind him while we're talking. I said, oh,
there's Katie, he says Terence. He says, no, No, Katie's
over there in the chair, curled up. I said, I
just saw your dog white walk by. That's wait a minute.
(20:48):
Did you ever have a large dog with a shaggy
black back? Yep? She It was the dog that actually
has come back to him. It was a German shepherd.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Wow. Okay, this gift you have a gift or maybe
considered a curse at times. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I don't know. It's a gift. It's from my grandmother
and God.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
That was my next question, like, how do you develop
something like this or do you just get it passed down?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
It is genetic, not always, but I believe everybody has
the ability. We have neuroplasticity when we're younger and we
develop pathways. But when you're a child, they're very open
and impliable, and people can be much more open to
the paranormal and to these things that are out there.
It's just as we get older, we develop those pathways
(21:32):
and normally in very normal ways, so we don't we're
not open to the unusual. You can train yourself, just
like people with traumatic brain injury can rewire the brains.
You can train yourself to be open to the paranormal,
but it takes effort and it takes practice, repetitive practice
to make that work. I have noticed that it's mostly
women who are psychic, and the majority of men who
(21:55):
are psychic are gay, which is odd. But my theory
is that the reason they are is perhaps it's like
an adaptation that they need to be more sensitive to
what's around them, given that it can be dangerous to
be gay in culture, in our cultures, and also because
they're allowed to be more feeling culturally more sensitive, whereas
(22:17):
most of us heterosexual men are more very straight and
narrow and not open to those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
You've heard a couple of sweet stories, obviously, but you know,
make no mistake, this is a dangerous career that you have.
What do people need to know before they would pursue
something like this? I saw you mentioned that as well.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Oh, they need to know an awful lot. And I've
said this many times. Don't think that when you watch
something on television or TikTok or YouTube or whatever, that
you're really learning how to do this. That's like watching
Gray's Anatomy and then picking up a scalpel. It's not
the same. You should go into this setting spiritual boundaries
always out loud. I'm here to help, I'm not. I
(22:58):
don't want you following me when I leave, and then
when you leave you say you're no longer allowed to
follow me. You should also be using some form of faith.
Whatever your faith is doesn't really matter. That's one thing
I've learned in all of my travels. Whatever God is,
and I don't profess to know, whatever that higher power is,
will answer prayers for everybody. It's all about focusing your
(23:19):
intention and your belief through some form of ritual to
protect yourself. Do that. Go in there with humility, go
in there with the intention of helping both the living
and the dead. And you're almost there. You're getting there.
But don't be afraid. Don't ever exploit anybody that's in
the home. Don't look. I do everything I do for
(23:40):
free and confidentially. I help families in crisis. My job
is not to expose them to the public, and I
don't want anybody else to do that. That's why you
don't see me on TikTok with a two second video
of a coffee cup flying crossroom. That's not us. We're
here to help.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
If someone were to jump into this career and do
exactly the opposite what you suggested, what's the worst case
scenario and what have you seen as far as people
taken advantage of this, even when.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
You know what you're doing, even when you're good at it.
Like Ed Warren in the Exorcism of Maurice Theils, I
was the guy standing between Bishop McKenna and Maurice. My
grandfather and grandmother weren't actively participating at all in the exorcism.
They were off to the side and my grandfather was
having a heart attack during the exorcism.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, and my grandmother couldn't see it. Another reason I
don't trust psychics. My grandmother was too close to him.
When your emotions are involved, or when you already know something,
you can't trust your psychic abilities. I can't go into
a place knowing something and expect or trust myself. I
have to go in completely cold. But another time, I mean, look,
I've had the gas turn on my stove three nights
(24:50):
in a row without the flame because I was about
on a bad case. I've had the brakes go out
in the car moments after I had just say, helped
the fan. These are the kinds of things you will
deal with. I had a man, one of my colleagues.
I was sending him on a very bad case out
in the DC area, and the night before this guy
(25:11):
was only like forty two forty three years old. The
night before going on this really bad case, he had
a massive stroke. So did all of this happen because
of negative energies? I don't know that for sure, but
it's certainly something to think about. I mean, I remember,
for I've never had my TV turn on just for
no reason. But I scheduled an extorcism in Tennessee for
(25:33):
a woman and that night, at two o'clock in the morning,
my TV and my computer blared on in the middle
of the night. My wife is like, oh, let's go see.
I was like, no, not, just ignore it. And I
was like, enough, turn off now. And it did.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
You mentioned the mauricetereal case. Kind of give me the
details of that case. I wanted to bring that up,
but I don't know all the specifics of it.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh, there's an entire book on that one. The poor man,
I mean, in a nutshell. He was a horribly abused,
illiterate French Canadian farmer. His father was a monster. His
father called him one day said Maurice, I just want
you to know I love you, first time he ever
said it. Then, while Maurice was listening on the phone,
he walked in the next room, picked up a gun,
(26:12):
murdered Maurice's mother, and then killed himself. What yeah, Well
it gets a lot worse. All of a sudden, Maurice
starts having things like words carved in French on his back,
saying the door is open. No one else in the
family spoke French and he couldn't write it, so he
had to translate whatever was on his back. I watched
(26:33):
him one after well, after some of these things were
going on, we got a phone call. We went in there, me,
my partner, Ray Jefferson, and my grandparents. After the initial interview,
my grandfather thought, it's the father. The father is attacking you.
He's a monster. Let's go to the grave and you
forgive your father, tell him you love him, and you
just wanted to be at peace. As we're standing there,
(26:53):
Maurice is crying talking to his dad. I was maybe
nine or ten feet away from him. We all watched
him get punched underneath the chin so hard it lifted
him off his feet and threw him back about ten
feet flat on his back. And that's when my grandfather decided,
all right, Ray, Chris, we want you to stay here
for a while. I watched him come under possession and
(27:14):
right in front of me he would bleed from the eyes.
His eyes would look like a snake. And then we
were in the greenhouse planting seedlings. It was early spring.
He was cold. I said, walk on over to the
wood fire and we'll keep working. Ray said Chris, look
at his eyes. He was under possession. His eyes looked
like a snake and he was crying tears of blood.
(27:34):
I had Maurice or I had Ray take Nancy, his wife,
up to the house and I confronted Maurice or whatever
was there and eventually got him out of it. But
afterwards he said his bag was bothering him. And I
lifted up his shirt and his T shirt had three
bloody crosses in it. Now, what's interesting is when I
lifted up the T shirt, there was blood on his back,
(27:56):
but there were no cuts. So I, yeah, weird. So
I said to him, I need this shirt. I was
at the University of Connecticut at the time. I said
I need this shirt. I want to go have it
tested and see what this is. Is a pig blood?
Is a kumb blood? What is this? So we went
back up to the house and I watched him take
off both shirts. He hands me the white T shirt
and there's no blood on it.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
It's gone, Okay, that's bizarre.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I don't know. I don't but we did the exorcism,
and unfortunately we didn't understand yet that there were underlying
issues that made him vulnerable to the paranormal that made
these things manifest the way they did. It's a life
lesson I've taken and it's changed everything I do. But
two years later, when I was in the Peace Corps
(28:39):
in Molly in West Africa, his wife Nancy called my
grandparents and said, he's coming under possession again. I'm not
going through this again. I'm getting a court order against him.
He's out well. She was coming home from work one night,
getting out of the car. He was waiting for her.
He had a shotgun. He blew her arm off, dragged her,
bleeding in to the kitchen, satder at the kitchen table,
(29:03):
and she said, this is it. I'm going to die,
just like Maurice's mother. And at the last moment he
put the shotgun under his own head and blew his
head off.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, so yes, it can be. It's only the first
first of two deaths that I can attribute to possession. Possession,
by the way, is not common. I've had over ten
thousand cases, most of which are very nothing. You know,
a few phone calls, some counseling and everything's fine. But
I've only had about twelve possession cases in forty four years.
(29:36):
People who tell you that they do three hundred and
fifty exorcisms a year. They're not doing that. They're maybe
doing something called a deliverance, which is, oh, you have
a porn addiction, We're going to free you from that.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
That's not the same what that is mind blowing, terrifying, sad,
every Oh my god. Yeah, I think your first case
was your most over the top poltergeist case you've ever been.
Would you mind kind of walking me through that?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Sure? Yeah, that one. Look, I know this is going
to sound crazy, and I have never ever experienced anything
like this. Again, this was over the top, one hundred
miles a minute case. I get called. I'm sixteen years old,
it's nineteen eighty one, and my grandfather decides I'm going
on my first case. I never even knew I was
going on a case. It wasn't on my bucket list.
(30:25):
I was afraid of the dark still, you know. But
we went up to Lee, Massachusetts with a man named
Paul Barts who was an assistant of my grandfather's, and
the husband and wife were sitting outside of this tracked home,
afraid to go in by themselves. Now there had already
been poltergeist phenomena there had been appliances flying across the room,
and tables and all sorts of stuff, and the woman
(30:47):
had even been in the master bedroom. It started. Let
me back up a little bit. It had been started
because they had inherited the home from the man's uncle
when he died, and the first night they moved in,
a little apparition of a little boy appeared in the
bedroom door and said, where do all the lonely people go?
The woman immediately called her priest and had a house cleansing,
(31:09):
and afterward the child never came back, but this hulking,
black shape manifested that night. The husband had gone to
work at the mill that night. He was on rotating shifts,
and this thing came in, picked up her rosary beads
off the bedpost and twirled them as if to say,
you think this is going to stop me? She ran
(31:30):
out of there. She was trying to get to her first.
She had two daughters across the hall, in two different bedrooms.
She tried to open the bedroom door, which didn't have
a lock on it, and it wouldn't open. The attic
pulled downstairs, came down on her head and knocked her senseless.
Once she was able to gather herself together. She got
the girls out and that was the last time they
were in there. When we entered, the whole house was
(31:52):
shaking from poundings in the wall in repetitions of three
and my grandfather said, that's a sure sign of the demonic.
I have my own opinions on these things. I mean,
my grandfather and grandmother were the best mentors in the world.
But again it's field of research. Things change over time
as we adapt. My grandparents changed all the time. But
(32:13):
at that point, that's where we were with our understanding,
and downstairs was just a couch and a recliner. Most
of the furniture was gone because of things flying in
the kitchen. There were a couple of things, and that's it.
As we're going up the stairs, I can hear growling
and cloying in the walls, and the walls are practically shaking.
We get to the top of the stairs, I look
into the bathroom to my left and there's this giant
(32:38):
crucifix on the wall and it's upside down straight out
on Hollywood and the pull downstairs to the attic were
pulled down, and my grandfather says, Chris, I want you
to sit in the master bedroom in the dark, and
let us know what happens. We're going to go downstairs.
We're gonna light Holy Church incense, and we're gonna stir
this thing up so it reveals itself. I was like,
(32:58):
you don't know what we're dealing with. So they put
the incense in a cooking pot and they're smudged downstairs,
and they're trying to get up the stairs and it
keeps going out And for an hour, I'm listening to
this growling and clinging right behind my head in the wall,
and I'm like, grat I hear this. I'm afraid of
the dark. I want to be in that. But after
(33:20):
an hour it was over. Everything quieted down and I
went downstairs. Now we were on WTICAM radio ten sixty
with Brian Dowell out of Hartford, Connecticut overnight. It was
a call in radio show and we had phones all
hooked up ready to go. At three o'clock in the morning,
the woman and my grandfather are sitting on the couch.
(33:40):
I'm in the recliner across from them. Paul Bart's and
the husband are upstairs on a princess phone in one
of the girl's rooms and it's a bitch black. Three
o'clock in the morning, two hulking black shapes come down
the stairs. We have a picture of one of these
things in the bedroom. I can share it with you.
It came down the stairs and just stood there on
the landing, and we could see it even in the dark.
Three fifteen, all hell broke loose. The woman screamed, her
(34:02):
face was on fire. My grandfather put the flashlight on
her face and there were three claw marks that appeared
right on the left side of her cheek, and blood
dripping down her chest. Then the pot with the church
incense in it flew around the corner. I'm on the
phone quietly with a crucifix on the other the saying
crucifix was upstairs in my other hand, and I'm quietly saying,
(34:23):
by the power of Jesus Christ, that command keep me gone.
By the power I mean, that's what my grandfather told
me to do. And this pot flies around the corner
and straight up my head just missed me hit the
window behind me. The shade flew up, the pot crumpled,
and the window didn't break. The woman starts screaming, she
wants out of the house, and I'm thinking, great idea,
let me help you. Yeah, I'm there. I run to
(34:46):
the front door, and we'd been in and out of
that door, and it wouldn't open, and the lights are
going on and off around me. The recliner i'd just
been in now tumbles across the room at me, and
then the door opens by itself, and she and I
run out. And I turned back and there's my grandfather
sitting with the lights going on and off. He's just
on the phone telling everybody what's going on. Calms could be.
(35:09):
I was like, that is the bravest person I've ever
seen in my entire life, honestly, wow. And I will
be grateful to him till the day I die, because
the next night I went home and for the first
time in my childhood, I went to bed without the
light on. I learned if you face your fears, if
you can immerse yourself in them, you can overcome them
(35:31):
and you can free yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I could talk to you for hours, and I plan to.
You can say no, but I want to do about
one hundred podcasts with you. Chris, Jesus, these are some
amazing stories.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Apply You're a great guy.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh my god. But after all you've seen, does anything
keep you up at night? I mean, what could scare you?
After that, you're gonna hear to laugh fame That can
be pretty scary.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah. I was in three of my grandparents' books and
I asked them to take my name out of it
after the first edition. I didn't like it. I'm only
coming forward now because I can't use them as my buffer.
I have to step forward. I have a responsibility to
the public and I have to help where I can,
and I can't do that if people don't know where
(36:17):
to find me.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
What are you working on now? Do you have a
case that's underway at the moment?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Oh, We have a number of the As a matter
of fact, we've just worked on one in England, like
twenty minutes before I was talking to you. I don't
have the details on that right now. I have to
get them from my team, so I'll be doing that
as soon as I'm off with you. I'm also working well,
we've got a lot of them, but we're working with
another woman in trying to marry Oh in California, and
(36:46):
she's having a lot of manifestations of dark looking entities.
Here's the thing I want to explain to people the
paranormal will manifest according to your beliefs. When we're faced
with the un we will put a face on it.
We would rather believe in the devil than deal with
the unknown, because the devil comes with rules that we
(37:07):
can understand, and that unknown doesn't. That's just too terrifying
for us. I've seen this in everywhere I go around
the world. We control the manifestation. If it's not a
human spirit, I mean, then we're dealing with something that
we are capable of making taking form the way we
fear it to be. There are cryptids reported by the
(37:28):
thousands all over the world, all sorts, thousands of different types.
In Perule alone, there's over a thousand different types of
cryptids in two encyclopedias. Do you believe that there are
really a thousand different kinds of magical creatures we haven't
discovered in just one little country. No. But when we're
faced with the unknown, we give it a face. So, yes,
I'm always working on something. I just helped the woman
(37:51):
today who's dealing with out of control psychic abilities. So
I was helping her learn how to protect herself, how
to develop them properly, how to ground herself. This is
something my grandmother did helping people with their gifts because often,
you know, they suffer from anxiety, they get overwhelmed by
different energies. I actually started an online support group on
(38:14):
Facebook that anybody who is gifted is welcome to join
for free. We've got over almost a thousand members on
there around the world. It's a very supportive community, but
it is only to help them. It's not about oh,
let's do a reading, or here's a dark thing. What
do you think this is? What are you're picking up?
None of that crap. We don't want to overwhelm them.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Do you find that a lot of them? And this
is a question I had for you as well, and
the movie for example, the sixth sense comes to mind.
You wake up and they're staring at you. Do you
have that? Do they have that? Happen often a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Of my people do. I'm lucky. I used to be
a lot more open, and I'm told constantly that I've
got amazing walls up. My grandmother was very good at
that with me. I used to read ours and things
like that. But it turns out that the curse, the
curse of Cassandra, is very real. People do not like
you to tell the truth. They don't want you to
(39:07):
see the truth. They want you to say beautiful things
about them. That's not me. I don't. I don't lie,
so I can't. I've refused to read or as I
will not. I haven't done it in thirty five years.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Wow, well, Chris, at some point I would love to
join you for something you pick. I don't know what
it is. I want to make sure it's obviously something
you think is appropriate. But uh, I want to join
you for something. I want to have you back on
as a guest. I want to cover more cases that
you are just a fascinating guy, and I just I
think it's such a pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
It's a pleasure to meet you. I've been looking forward.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
To this really well. Same, I guess. Final question, if
people want to reach out to you they're going through something,
is the best way Instagram or how do you suggest
they reach out to you? And what information would they
need would you need to get from them to say
all right, you've got you've got a problem. Right.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Well, fifty half of my job, half of the job
of everybody in the Warren Legacy Foundation, is f figuring
out what we're dealing with. The paranormal is messy. It
isn't cut and dry, and just because we're dealing with
drug abuse or mental illness, that doesn't rule out the paranormal.
That's the vehicle for the manifestation that we have to
deal with. I suggest you go to the Warren Legacy Foundation.
(40:17):
It's called Warren Legacy Foundation dot com. There's a contact
us link there. Fill out our Google form. It's very detailed.
We ask a lot of information. It gives us a
sense of what you're dealing with. So then we can
figure out the next step and we'll set up an
appointment with you. We'll ask you for more information again,
and we'll then develop a service plan on how best
(40:38):
to help you. If you need to, just reach out
to me, if you have a question or what have
you and reach out to me. Chris McKinnell on Facebook,
Warren Files on Instagram, and TikTok. That's it. I mean,
our services are free and confidential. The only thing I
charge for is presentations and consultations that are outside of
people in crisis. Only because I'm spending about sixteen hours
(41:01):
a day helping people, I don't have the bandwidth to
just sit and chat unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Right, well fair enough, I mean, my god, life is expensive,
you know. So yeah, Chris, thank you so much. I
really appreciate your time to be continued.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Thank you,
Welcome to another episode of Paranormalist. It's Jojo, right, and
I'll keep this intro short. This might be my favorite
podcast I've ever done. His name is Chris McKinnel, and
he'll explain. But he's got some very famous grandparents who
taught him a lot, and then he's expanded on what
he's learned in the paranormal field. His grandparents are Ed
(00:21):
and Lorraine Warren. His name is Chris McKinnel. Oh my god,
wait till you hear this. I call this episode Chris McKinnel.
The Warren Files enjoy Jojo on the radio present Paranormal Normal.
(00:42):
Chris McKinnel. It is so good to finally meet you.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I am doing great, Jojo. It's pleasure to meet you.
Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Absolutely. I'm going through, you know, just scrolling Instagram the
other day and somehow your your page just you know,
pops up in my feed. I'm like, oh my god,
how I never talked to this guy a DM do
you think? And well, maybe he'll see this, maybe you won't.
About twenty minutes later, boom, we're best friends on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So there's that you made me laugh because you asked
for my PR guy.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Okay, yeah, you know sometimes if you talk with you know,
if you don't include the PR guy, they get all,
you know, bent out of shape. So that I did
the you know, the usual there. But hey, Chris, you're
in what I'm sitting here in Burbank, Burbank, California. As
we talk here, you are in your aware I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
In a sunsee.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Oh wow, what brought you out there?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, I travel around the world and I've been here
a year and a half. Now. I go to places
so I can learn how the paranormal manifests and different cultures,
how those cultures deal with it. I'm here to learn.
I'm a I'm a I'm a student for life.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
All right. If you don't know the backstory, let me
give a quick quick run in here. Chris McKinnel. He
has some very famous grandparents in the paranormal space. Probably
the most famous grandparents in the paranormal world you can
popossibly have. Your grandparents are Ed and Lorraine Warren. I mean,
if you're in the paranormal community, you know exactly who
(02:07):
they are. I guess my first question is when did
you realize that my grandparents aren't the typical grandparents. There's
something different.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Actually, it's my very first memory. I was maybe three
years old and it was nighttime and my two year
old sister locked me in the museum. Yeah shut I mean,
I don't get me wrong. I was in there all
of maybe a minute or two, but I was screaming
my ass off, looking at that tiger head staring at
(02:38):
me from the table, and my grandfather came running out
of the office and got me out of there immediately.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Oh my god. All right, so let me just jump
into that. That was one of my questions a little farther down.
But we're talking about the Warren Occult Museum. Which is
which is or was? I'm not sure in their house.
We've seen it in all the movies. We'll talk about
the movies later. I know the movies are, you know,
a dramaticized version of what reality. But in this war
On occult museum in their house, you were locked in there.
(03:05):
What did you come face to face with? Because that
museum is bigger than life for a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You know, it's just a it's an art studio that
because my grandparents were artists, and it's attached to the
house at this point in history, it wasn't even attached.
But all I saw were ghoulish things hanging on the
wall and that tiger skin that I will remember for
the rest of my life. And my grandfather told me
the story of that skin. He said it had been
(03:32):
taken this tiger had been taken over by a black
magic user in India, and it had murdered dozens of villagers.
They couldn't kill it with regular bullets, but when they
used special blessed bullets, it also killed the magic.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
User whoa Okay, obviously we know about the Annabelle doll.
That's probably the most famous artifact in this museum, and
the museum, to my understanding, is basically artifacts they've collected
from their investigations. Sure of faalseones no.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
No half and half. Other things were things that were
put in there for educational purposes. I worked with the
Peace Corps in Africa, and when I came back, I
had fetish dolls and touring daggers and all sorts of
stuff to give my grandfather. It's now sitting in the museum,
not attached to any particular case, but because they were
good for teaching people I.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Still can't get out of my head. As a kid,
you were locked in there, I would have and I
think most people would have just freaked out.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I was afraid of the dark until I was sixteen
because of it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah wow, all right, let's back to the Annimel doll.
Is it in fact locked in a glass case inside
the museum, the famous Annibel doll?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, at that point it didn't. It wasn't in the
museum at all, and probably up until nineteen seventy four,
it wasn't contained, It wasn't bound. My grandparents were always learning.
That's something people don't understand about them. When you're watching
those old videos and reading their old books, you're only
getting a snapshot in time. You're not seeing where they
progressed to. This is a field research, you know. It's
(05:01):
not a static thing. It's always growing. And they had
it sitting in a rocking chair for years.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
My god, all right, do me a favor, give me
a story, maybe two, on the museum. What have you experienced?
What what comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Oh? Sure you remember that big seven foot tall demon statue?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I sure do.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, that's actually from one of my cases. Shut up, Yeah, now,
that was one of mine I was in. It was
in Newtown, Connecticut. It was a pregnant woman and her husband.
She claimed he was coming under possession, so my grandfather
sent me and my partner out there. We felt there
was something to it, so we decided to spend the night.
At the middle of the night, the woman starts screaming.
My partner is like shaking me. She's screaming. Screamed, I know,
(05:45):
get out of my way. I pushed him out of
the way. I ran across the room. This guy was
levitated over this pregnant woman. You saw this, I listen.
I've seen levitation three times in my life. Shut off
of human beings. I ran. I tackled him out of midair.
I was a lot younger. We hit the bed on
(06:06):
the other side of this woman rolled off. I ended
up on top of him on the floor. My partner
came up behind me, throwing holy water and screaming, and
by the powers, the descrit like a man did be
gone and we were able to get him out of it. Now,
this place was right next door to a funeral home.
One morning, we were leaving the house and there were
four men in a car waiting for us. Now I'd
(06:27):
grown up in Newtown, Connecticut, so I knew the roads
we were being chased. I went booking through these back
roads and we escaped them. But a while later, I
can't tell you how long, I don't remember. Maybe it
was a few weeks, a month, whatever, there was a
hunter way in back in the woods from the house.
He came across that statue in front of a big
(06:47):
stone that had wax and it looked like maybe some blood.
It had been used as some kind of makeshift alter.
And the theory we've come up with is those men
were Satanists who were trying to use any kind of
Necroman energy that was in the funeral home, and somehow
there was a spillover to this man in the other house.
He was being affected by it because he was too sensitive.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Okay, those kind of stories just blow my mind, just bomb.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, that was a hell of a thing. It really was.
The police came, they saw the statue and they turned
it over to my grandfather.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Now, the statue, when you put something like that in
the museum, does it still have a power to it
or is it just contained to the museum, or how
do you stop it from doing that? Again?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You're supposed to bind these things. Now, whether or not
that's still being done, I'm not sure, but you're supposed
to put rituals around it to bind the energies, to
keep it so it's in the object itself. My grandfather
always said, do not touch anything, do not challenge anything,
and everything's fine. If you do touch anything, tell him
(07:47):
immediately so he can spiritually cleanse you. It was something
we took very, very seriously.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Is there anything you are still afraid of to this
day in the museum.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
No, I'm like a snake handler, I know, to be respect,
I'm more afraid for the public than I am of
my own personal safety. Plus I don't go in there,
you know. I'm South America for goodness sake.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I wonder if, like the people in the neighborhood, you know,
kids are curious. Oh yeah, dude, I'm sure they knock
on the door and try to do they get a lot.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Of that, Listen. I lived with my grandmother the last
year and a half of her life, and I remember
one night after one of the Annabel movies came out,
probably in twenty eighteen. Two kids had taken an uber
from New Jersey from directly from the movie to the
house at night and they were clamoring all over the
house trying to get in to see Annabel.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I assume you guys call the police, and oh no.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
We don't have to the police are always watching that house.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
All all right, Well let's segue, you know, nice segue there, Chris,
into the Conjuring series. We were talking off you know,
off air. I guess you could say you love the series.
You know, but people, we hope are sophisticated enough to
know that it's not a documentary. There's a crazy Hollywood
license they've taken to make it dramatic, and they've done
a great job of it. It's phenomenal, but it's not
(09:05):
exactly a doc like you said, So your thoughts on the.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Series, Yeah, they're great.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I love Vera and I love Patrick. They're amazing as actors.
They're just fantastic. Vera in particular, she and my grandmother
loved each other, and Vera I respect because she respected
my grandmother and wanted to do a good job for her.
She's a very earthly, you know, spiritual person, and my
grandmother responded well to that. But yeah, the movies are fantasies.
(09:33):
They're look my grandparents loved each other very very much.
They were my heroes, but they weren't superheroes. My grandmother
did have abilities, and very amazing abilities. I blew my
mind when I would watch her sometimes. But even she said,
the best psychic in the world is only right sixty
percent of the time. So I always caution people. Don't
(09:53):
bet your life on a psychic, you know, don't change
your life without evidence. Be careful. The movies, well, let's
go with Annabel first, the Annabell movies. Annabel's a real thing,
and it is deadly, but it isn't what people think
it is. And those movies are not based on any
reality whatsoever at all. And the Nun doesn't exist. That's
a James One creation. But Frenchie did the character Frenchie
(10:18):
in the Nun. That's Maurice Theild And that's another one
of my cases.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Which I'm going to bring that up later for sure.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Hey, just to stay with the Conjuring series that well,
the latest one, The Conjuring Last writes the Smirl Family Haunting,
which is what it's based on. You. You were the
first investigator to go into the house before your grandparents.
You gathered info and basically, to my understanding, presented it
to your grandparents. So this is your case, you know,
in a way, What can you tell me about you know,
when you first entered the house, what what caught your eye?
(10:45):
What made what made you believe them?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Well, it's not fair to say it was my case.
I was just the first one in there.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Okay. You know, my.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Grandparents used a lot of investigators. I just happened to
be the ones they were using then. And I went
in with a kid from college who had no idea
what we were going to be facing. Boy, and we
went in simply with a cassette recorder. First thing we
did is try to capture anything we could. And I
caught pig noises in the bedroom. Yeah like that, and
(11:14):
sorry to your sound engineer, but we would hear tappings
and other noises coming from the basement. And then I
was in the master bedroom and I was just praying
and the bedroom door slam shut. So I started praying
to Padre Peel because he's somebody that my family thinks
(11:35):
of as our patron. Scene and the whole room smelled
like roses. I was like, all right, we're in good,
good hands here. Everything's fine, But one night, I was
walking up the stairs, and this is something people have
a hard time believing. And I don't blame anybody who
hasn't lived through this, and I'm not trying to convince
anybody of my life experience. I'm just saying it happened.
(11:56):
I was walking up the stairs. Missus s Merle was
at the top of the stairs with poor Doug, my
friend from college, and all of a sudden, I get
woozy and I'm like rocking and I'm floating over the stairs.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
What gun?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, and they reached out and grabbed me immediately and
pulled me right in. I couldn't tell you how long
I was in the air, But it turns out, and
I didn't know this until I was just doing some
research myself, mister and Missus Smirle were also levitated from
their beds at a point, and one of their daughters
was thrown down the stairs.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Wow. So yeah, you get this kind of info, and
clearly it's time to bring in the big guns when
you see and feel and experience something like that. So
what do you do with this info?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I immediately called my grandfather and told him what was
going on, and he had me go in for a
couple more weekends and gather more information. But that was
the bulk of what I got over that time. And
although there was one weird thing, Missus Smirle told me
that just like within weeks of my being there, they
had discovered partially digested twin that she had absorbed in
(13:02):
the womb that had become this fibrous mass in her
belly and they had to remove it. Now, that's not
unusual really to absorb a fetus, but to have that
kind of a hairy mass in your belly, that's pretty unusual.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
So how do you think that played into the case?
Is there a tie there?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
You know, here's the thing about the paranormal. If you
try to always say you understand everything and you know
the answers, you're not. You don't, and you have to
accept that there are going to be times you don't
know what you're dealing with. I was only twenty one
years old. I didn't even know the questions to ask
back then. I had no idea if I could, that
(13:41):
would be one of the cases I would love to
go back and reinvestigate properly. Having said that, once a
case is finished, I don't believe in going back. I
think these people who go into the conjuring house and elsewhere,
they're opening doors that have been closed. They're specifically going
in there to try to get something to manifest. I
think that's incredibly dangerous because my grandmother taught me like attracts,
(14:04):
Like the energy you put out is what you will attract,
and unfortunately the paranormal can attract a lot of broken people.
You don't want that energy in those places.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Once you brought this info back to your grandparents, then
they did what they did. You know, were you part
of that investigation as well? Were you there watching what
was going.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
On with the smirls?
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yes? No.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Once my grandparents got involved, I was done. I saw
the publicity, I saw how crazy it all got, and
I have to admit it was something that made me
very uncomfortable. But I also understood they were using publicity
kind of like as leverage against the church to make
them work. We had run into so many problems dealing
with the church, the Catholic Church in particular, because even
(14:47):
though the Pope may say this is real and we
need to work with people and help them, local bishops
can be very very careful and more like politicians about it,
and sometimes you just have to guilt them to getting help.
And that's why my grandparents did it that way. Not
every time, but when they had to.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's a shame because that's the whole point of the
church as far as I see it, to help someone, right.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
It should be Yeah, but that's not been my experience.
We had a case where an exorcist who called himself
father anonymous. O, no, are you father A? We had
to call him father A. He said to me point blank,
if the public finds out about this case, I will
walk away. The church is more important than any family.
I was like, boy, you don't seem to understand the teachings.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Of Christ, and you think it'd be the exact opposite exact.
You mentioned the word exorcist and we were talking off
camera a moment ago. Once again and this has sort
of taking a left turn, but you met the real
exorcist from well, the movie The Exorcist was based on
a true story. You met the real exorcist that that
was based on, correct.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I met one of three There were three of exorcists,
and I happened to meet one when I was fourteen
years old.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
What was that experience?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Like? Oh, he came up to us. I was on
a tour with my grandparents, lecture tour and he came
up at the end of it and just introduced himself.
The most, the sweetest, most humble man imaginable, And it
taught me to approach this with humility. This isn't about me.
It's not about us at all. You know, it's God,
(16:17):
And if anything goes right, you can thank God. If
anything goes wrong, you can blame me.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Wow, we'll get to see some more of the terrifying
cases in a few seconds. But you mentioned prior to this,
some paranormal cases aren't scary, you know, some have Like
I think you said, you had spirits of family members
visit you. I think you said. I know this is
probably a sensitive story, and I wouldn't bring it up
if you hadn't brought it up to me, But your
fiance who passed away, give me whatever stories you care
to share. I would love to hear some of those.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Oh. The truth is, but more often than not, your
fear is caused by not understanding what you're dealing with.
You're dealing with the unknown, and you immediately are afraid.
And I understand that, but it's usually just somebody trying
to get your attention. They're taking your keys, they're jiggling
the doorknobs. I had a case recently here in Paraguay
where the woman contacted me because she was sure she
(17:05):
had demons in her house. They were rattling her doors
and opening the doors and knocking, and I went in
and I worked in the house twice, and it turned
out it was her father and he was warning her
that her ex boyfriend was dangerous. It turned out he
certainly was very dangerous. He had threatened to kill me
and this woman's mother if she didn't pay him money. Wow. Yeah,
(17:29):
it just goes to show that love continues even after
you die. Diana my fiance when my son was eight
years old. Diana and I had fallen in love. She
had three kids, who bought a house together. We were
ready to move in and the Sunday before Thanksgiving she
collapsed and it was discovered she had non Hodgkinson unphoma,
(17:50):
and cancer can be really hard on a relationship. I
wanted to take care of her, she wanted to be
with her mother. It caused stress. So at the end
of the last two weeks of her life, if we
didn't talk too much. I was actually writing her a
letter saying cancer is not going to kill you. Don't
let it kill our love.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
The moment she died, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
She died within two hours of my mother's birthday. The
weird coincidence is her father died on my birthday and
she was born or my son was born on her birthday. Wow,
I know, really weird. But she came to me the
night before the funeral. My grandmother and my mother and
my son were in the master bedroom. I was in
(18:30):
my son's room. I was still awake. She came to me,
and I'm trying to tell her how much I love her,
how much I missed her, and she's saying, sh it's okay,
it's okay, don't worry about it. It's all fine. But
I wouldn't stopped. I'm crying, and I could hear my
mother in the hallway and I call out to her
and she thinks I'm talking in my sleep, so she
doesn't come in. I wanted her to see this. But
(18:51):
about two weeks later, I was in the master bedroom
by myself. No one was hong pitch black, couldn't see
a thing, and I hear footsteps coming down the hallway.
They woke me up heavy footsteps. My fiance was a
heavy woman. And I opened my eyes and there was
a mirror on the back of the bedroom door, and
she was propped up on one elbow, looking down at
(19:12):
me from behind me, with a smile on her face.
And I was like, oh, no, I'm not going to
watch you leave again. And I know it doesn't make sense.
I closed my eyes. I didn't want to see her
leave again. And she got right in front of me
and she said, very clearly, I love you, and she
physically kissed me on the lips physically, And that was
(19:35):
the very last time she ever visited. It was unfinished business.
She needed me to know because we weren't talking because
of the stress of her dying. She needed me to
know how she felt.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That's about a special as a gets right there.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh it doesn't get better. I mean, my grandmother has visited,
but that's not even as good as Diana.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
If I may ask, when you see something what her specifically?
Does she look like me or you alive? You know?
Like so like if you didn't know she had passed
and you saw what she looked like, you would think
she was perfectly fine, right or not? Well that clear.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Here's the thing that was made it unusual. In this
particular case. I shouldn't have been able to see anything
in the mirror because it was too dark, but I did.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Huh, so she had Yeah, she had a goal to her.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I guess, right, not that I could say, but I
see her, so I suppose.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
But here's another weird thing that happened yesterday. Now this
doesn't happen very often, so this is really weird. I
have an uncle in Adelaide, in Australia, and he has
this wonderful dog, and so I see his dog walk
by him behind him while we're talking. I said, oh,
there's Katie, he says Terence. He says, no, No, Katie's
over there in the chair, curled up. I said, I
just saw your dog white walk by. That's wait a minute.
(20:48):
Did you ever have a large dog with a shaggy
black back? Yep? She It was the dog that actually
has come back to him. It was a German shepherd.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Wow. Okay, this gift you have a gift or maybe
considered a curse at times. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I don't know. It's a gift. It's from my grandmother
and God.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
That was my next question, like, how do you develop
something like this or do you just get it passed down?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
It is genetic, not always, but I believe everybody has
the ability. We have neuroplasticity when we're younger and we
develop pathways. But when you're a child, they're very open
and impliable, and people can be much more open to
the paranormal and to these things that are out there.
It's just as we get older, we develop those pathways
(21:32):
and normally in very normal ways, so we don't we're
not open to the unusual. You can train yourself, just
like people with traumatic brain injury can rewire the brains.
You can train yourself to be open to the paranormal,
but it takes effort and it takes practice, repetitive practice
to make that work. I have noticed that it's mostly
women who are psychic, and the majority of men who
(21:55):
are psychic are gay, which is odd. But my theory
is that the reason they are is perhaps it's like
an adaptation that they need to be more sensitive to
what's around them, given that it can be dangerous to
be gay in culture, in our cultures, and also because
they're allowed to be more feeling culturally more sensitive, whereas
(22:17):
most of us heterosexual men are more very straight and
narrow and not open to those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
You've heard a couple of sweet stories, obviously, but you know,
make no mistake, this is a dangerous career that you have.
What do people need to know before they would pursue
something like this? I saw you mentioned that as well.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Oh, they need to know an awful lot. And I've
said this many times. Don't think that when you watch
something on television or TikTok or YouTube or whatever, that
you're really learning how to do this. That's like watching
Gray's Anatomy and then picking up a scalpel. It's not
the same. You should go into this setting spiritual boundaries
always out loud. I'm here to help, I'm not. I
(22:58):
don't want you following me when I leave, and then
when you leave you say you're no longer allowed to
follow me. You should also be using some form of faith.
Whatever your faith is doesn't really matter. That's one thing
I've learned in all of my travels. Whatever God is,
and I don't profess to know, whatever that higher power is,
will answer prayers for everybody. It's all about focusing your
(23:19):
intention and your belief through some form of ritual to
protect yourself. Do that. Go in there with humility, go
in there with the intention of helping both the living
and the dead. And you're almost there. You're getting there.
But don't be afraid. Don't ever exploit anybody that's in
the home. Don't look. I do everything I do for
(23:40):
free and confidentially. I help families in crisis. My job
is not to expose them to the public, and I
don't want anybody else to do that. That's why you
don't see me on TikTok with a two second video
of a coffee cup flying crossroom. That's not us. We're
here to help.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
If someone were to jump into this career and do
exactly the opposite what you suggested, what's the worst case
scenario and what have you seen as far as people
taken advantage of this, even when.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
You know what you're doing, even when you're good at it.
Like Ed Warren in the Exorcism of Maurice Theils, I
was the guy standing between Bishop McKenna and Maurice. My
grandfather and grandmother weren't actively participating at all in the exorcism.
They were off to the side and my grandfather was
having a heart attack during the exorcism.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, and my grandmother couldn't see it. Another reason I
don't trust psychics. My grandmother was too close to him.
When your emotions are involved, or when you already know something,
you can't trust your psychic abilities. I can't go into
a place knowing something and expect or trust myself. I
have to go in completely cold. But another time, I mean, look,
I've had the gas turn on my stove three nights
(24:50):
in a row without the flame because I was about
on a bad case. I've had the brakes go out
in the car moments after I had just say, helped
the fan. These are the kinds of things you will
deal with. I had a man, one of my colleagues.
I was sending him on a very bad case out
in the DC area, and the night before this guy
(25:11):
was only like forty two forty three years old. The
night before going on this really bad case, he had
a massive stroke. So did all of this happen because
of negative energies? I don't know that for sure, but
it's certainly something to think about. I mean, I remember,
for I've never had my TV turn on just for
no reason. But I scheduled an extorcism in Tennessee for
(25:33):
a woman and that night, at two o'clock in the morning,
my TV and my computer blared on in the middle
of the night. My wife is like, oh, let's go see.
I was like, no, not, just ignore it. And I
was like, enough, turn off now. And it did.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
You mentioned the mauricetereal case. Kind of give me the
details of that case. I wanted to bring that up,
but I don't know all the specifics of it.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh, there's an entire book on that one. The poor man,
I mean, in a nutshell. He was a horribly abused,
illiterate French Canadian farmer. His father was a monster. His
father called him one day said Maurice, I just want
you to know I love you, first time he ever
said it. Then, while Maurice was listening on the phone,
he walked in the next room, picked up a gun,
(26:12):
murdered Maurice's mother, and then killed himself. What yeah, Well
it gets a lot worse. All of a sudden, Maurice
starts having things like words carved in French on his back,
saying the door is open. No one else in the
family spoke French and he couldn't write it, so he
had to translate whatever was on his back. I watched
(26:33):
him one after well, after some of these things were
going on, we got a phone call. We went in there, me,
my partner, Ray Jefferson, and my grandparents. After the initial interview,
my grandfather thought, it's the father. The father is attacking you.
He's a monster. Let's go to the grave and you
forgive your father, tell him you love him, and you
just wanted to be at peace. As we're standing there,
(26:53):
Maurice is crying talking to his dad. I was maybe
nine or ten feet away from him. We all watched
him get punched underneath the chin so hard it lifted
him off his feet and threw him back about ten
feet flat on his back. And that's when my grandfather decided,
all right, Ray, Chris, we want you to stay here
for a while. I watched him come under possession and
(27:14):
right in front of me he would bleed from the eyes.
His eyes would look like a snake. And then we
were in the greenhouse planting seedlings. It was early spring.
He was cold. I said, walk on over to the
wood fire and we'll keep working. Ray said Chris, look
at his eyes. He was under possession. His eyes looked
like a snake and he was crying tears of blood.
(27:34):
I had Maurice or I had Ray take Nancy, his wife,
up to the house and I confronted Maurice or whatever
was there and eventually got him out of it. But
afterwards he said his bag was bothering him. And I
lifted up his shirt and his T shirt had three
bloody crosses in it. Now, what's interesting is when I
lifted up the T shirt, there was blood on his back,
(27:56):
but there were no cuts. So I, yeah, weird. So
I said to him, I need this shirt. I was
at the University of Connecticut at the time. I said
I need this shirt. I want to go have it
tested and see what this is. Is a pig blood?
Is a kumb blood? What is this? So we went
back up to the house and I watched him take
off both shirts. He hands me the white T shirt
and there's no blood on it.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
It's gone, Okay, that's bizarre.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I don't know. I don't but we did the exorcism,
and unfortunately we didn't understand yet that there were underlying
issues that made him vulnerable to the paranormal that made
these things manifest the way they did. It's a life
lesson I've taken and it's changed everything I do. But
two years later, when I was in the Peace Corps
(28:39):
in Molly in West Africa, his wife Nancy called my
grandparents and said, he's coming under possession again. I'm not
going through this again. I'm getting a court order against him.
He's out well. She was coming home from work one night,
getting out of the car. He was waiting for her.
He had a shotgun. He blew her arm off, dragged her,
bleeding in to the kitchen, satder at the kitchen table,
(29:03):
and she said, this is it. I'm going to die,
just like Maurice's mother. And at the last moment he
put the shotgun under his own head and blew his
head off.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, so yes, it can be. It's only the first
first of two deaths that I can attribute to possession. Possession,
by the way, is not common. I've had over ten
thousand cases, most of which are very nothing. You know,
a few phone calls, some counseling and everything's fine. But
I've only had about twelve possession cases in forty four years.
(29:36):
People who tell you that they do three hundred and
fifty exorcisms a year. They're not doing that. They're maybe
doing something called a deliverance, which is, oh, you have
a porn addiction, We're going to free you from that.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
That's not the same what that is mind blowing, terrifying, sad,
every Oh my god. Yeah, I think your first case
was your most over the top poltergeist case you've ever been.
Would you mind kind of walking me through that?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Sure? Yeah, that one. Look, I know this is going
to sound crazy, and I have never ever experienced anything
like this. Again, this was over the top, one hundred
miles a minute case. I get called. I'm sixteen years old,
it's nineteen eighty one, and my grandfather decides I'm going
on my first case. I never even knew I was
going on a case. It wasn't on my bucket list.
(30:25):
I was afraid of the dark still, you know. But
we went up to Lee, Massachusetts with a man named
Paul Barts who was an assistant of my grandfather's, and
the husband and wife were sitting outside of this tracked home,
afraid to go in by themselves. Now there had already
been poltergeist phenomena there had been appliances flying across the room,
and tables and all sorts of stuff, and the woman
(30:47):
had even been in the master bedroom. It started. Let
me back up a little bit. It had been started
because they had inherited the home from the man's uncle
when he died, and the first night they moved in,
a little apparition of a little boy appeared in the
bedroom door and said, where do all the lonely people go?
The woman immediately called her priest and had a house cleansing,
(31:09):
and afterward the child never came back, but this hulking,
black shape manifested that night. The husband had gone to
work at the mill that night. He was on rotating shifts,
and this thing came in, picked up her rosary beads
off the bedpost and twirled them as if to say,
you think this is going to stop me? She ran
(31:30):
out of there. She was trying to get to her first.
She had two daughters across the hall, in two different bedrooms.
She tried to open the bedroom door, which didn't have
a lock on it, and it wouldn't open. The attic
pulled downstairs, came down on her head and knocked her senseless.
Once she was able to gather herself together. She got
the girls out and that was the last time they
were in there. When we entered, the whole house was
(31:52):
shaking from poundings in the wall in repetitions of three
and my grandfather said, that's a sure sign of the demonic.
I have my own opinions on these things. I mean,
my grandfather and grandmother were the best mentors in the world.
But again it's field of research. Things change over time
as we adapt. My grandparents changed all the time. But
(32:13):
at that point, that's where we were with our understanding,
and downstairs was just a couch and a recliner. Most
of the furniture was gone because of things flying in
the kitchen. There were a couple of things, and that's it.
As we're going up the stairs, I can hear growling
and cloying in the walls, and the walls are practically shaking.
We get to the top of the stairs, I look
into the bathroom to my left and there's this giant
(32:38):
crucifix on the wall and it's upside down straight out
on Hollywood and the pull downstairs to the attic were
pulled down, and my grandfather says, Chris, I want you
to sit in the master bedroom in the dark, and
let us know what happens. We're going to go downstairs.
We're gonna light Holy Church incense, and we're gonna stir
this thing up so it reveals itself. I was like,
(32:58):
you don't know what we're dealing with. So they put
the incense in a cooking pot and they're smudged downstairs,
and they're trying to get up the stairs and it
keeps going out And for an hour, I'm listening to
this growling and clinging right behind my head in the wall,
and I'm like, grat I hear this. I'm afraid of
the dark. I want to be in that. But after
(33:20):
an hour it was over. Everything quieted down and I
went downstairs. Now we were on WTICAM radio ten sixty
with Brian Dowell out of Hartford, Connecticut overnight. It was
a call in radio show and we had phones all
hooked up ready to go. At three o'clock in the morning,
the woman and my grandfather are sitting on the couch.
(33:40):
I'm in the recliner across from them. Paul Bart's and
the husband are upstairs on a princess phone in one
of the girl's rooms and it's a bitch black. Three
o'clock in the morning, two hulking black shapes come down
the stairs. We have a picture of one of these
things in the bedroom. I can share it with you.
It came down the stairs and just stood there on
the landing, and we could see it even in the dark.
Three fifteen, all hell broke loose. The woman screamed, her
(34:02):
face was on fire. My grandfather put the flashlight on
her face and there were three claw marks that appeared
right on the left side of her cheek, and blood
dripping down her chest. Then the pot with the church
incense in it flew around the corner. I'm on the
phone quietly with a crucifix on the other the saying
crucifix was upstairs in my other hand, and I'm quietly saying,
(34:23):
by the power of Jesus Christ, that command keep me gone.
By the power I mean, that's what my grandfather told
me to do. And this pot flies around the corner
and straight up my head just missed me hit the
window behind me. The shade flew up, the pot crumpled,
and the window didn't break. The woman starts screaming, she
wants out of the house, and I'm thinking, great idea,
let me help you. Yeah, I'm there. I run to
(34:46):
the front door, and we'd been in and out of
that door, and it wouldn't open, and the lights are
going on and off around me. The recliner i'd just
been in now tumbles across the room at me, and
then the door opens by itself, and she and I
run out. And I turned back and there's my grandfather
sitting with the lights going on and off. He's just
on the phone telling everybody what's going on. Calms could be.
(35:09):
I was like, that is the bravest person I've ever
seen in my entire life, honestly, wow. And I will
be grateful to him till the day I die, because
the next night I went home and for the first
time in my childhood, I went to bed without the
light on. I learned if you face your fears, if
you can immerse yourself in them, you can overcome them
(35:31):
and you can free yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I could talk to you for hours, and I plan to.
You can say no, but I want to do about
one hundred podcasts with you. Chris, Jesus, these are some
amazing stories.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Apply You're a great guy.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh my god. But after all you've seen, does anything
keep you up at night? I mean, what could scare you?
After that, you're gonna hear to laugh fame That can
be pretty scary.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah. I was in three of my grandparents' books and
I asked them to take my name out of it
after the first edition. I didn't like it. I'm only
coming forward now because I can't use them as my buffer.
I have to step forward. I have a responsibility to
the public and I have to help where I can,
and I can't do that if people don't know where
(36:17):
to find me.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
What are you working on now? Do you have a
case that's underway at the moment?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Oh, We have a number of the As a matter
of fact, we've just worked on one in England, like
twenty minutes before I was talking to you. I don't
have the details on that right now. I have to
get them from my team, so I'll be doing that
as soon as I'm off with you. I'm also working well,
we've got a lot of them, but we're working with
another woman in trying to marry Oh in California, and
(36:46):
she's having a lot of manifestations of dark looking entities.
Here's the thing I want to explain to people the
paranormal will manifest according to your beliefs. When we're faced
with the un we will put a face on it.
We would rather believe in the devil than deal with
the unknown, because the devil comes with rules that we
(37:07):
can understand, and that unknown doesn't. That's just too terrifying
for us. I've seen this in everywhere I go around
the world. We control the manifestation. If it's not a
human spirit, I mean, then we're dealing with something that
we are capable of making taking form the way we
fear it to be. There are cryptids reported by the
(37:28):
thousands all over the world, all sorts, thousands of different types.
In Perule alone, there's over a thousand different types of
cryptids in two encyclopedias. Do you believe that there are
really a thousand different kinds of magical creatures we haven't
discovered in just one little country. No. But when we're
faced with the unknown, we give it a face. So, yes,
I'm always working on something. I just helped the woman
(37:51):
today who's dealing with out of control psychic abilities. So
I was helping her learn how to protect herself, how
to develop them properly, how to ground herself. This is
something my grandmother did helping people with their gifts because often,
you know, they suffer from anxiety, they get overwhelmed by
different energies. I actually started an online support group on
(38:14):
Facebook that anybody who is gifted is welcome to join
for free. We've got over almost a thousand members on
there around the world. It's a very supportive community, but
it is only to help them. It's not about oh,
let's do a reading, or here's a dark thing. What
do you think this is? What are you're picking up?
None of that crap. We don't want to overwhelm them.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Do you find that a lot of them? And this
is a question I had for you as well, and
the movie for example, the sixth sense comes to mind.
You wake up and they're staring at you. Do you
have that? Do they have that? Happen often a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Of my people do. I'm lucky. I used to be
a lot more open, and I'm told constantly that I've
got amazing walls up. My grandmother was very good at
that with me. I used to read ours and things
like that. But it turns out that the curse, the
curse of Cassandra, is very real. People do not like
you to tell the truth. They don't want you to
(39:07):
see the truth. They want you to say beautiful things
about them. That's not me. I don't. I don't lie,
so I can't. I've refused to read or as I
will not. I haven't done it in thirty five years.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Wow, well, Chris, at some point I would love to
join you for something you pick. I don't know what
it is. I want to make sure it's obviously something
you think is appropriate. But uh, I want to join
you for something. I want to have you back on
as a guest. I want to cover more cases that
you are just a fascinating guy, and I just I
think it's such a pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
It's a pleasure to meet you. I've been looking forward.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
To this really well. Same, I guess. Final question, if
people want to reach out to you they're going through something,
is the best way Instagram or how do you suggest
they reach out to you? And what information would they
need would you need to get from them to say
all right, you've got you've got a problem. Right.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Well, fifty half of my job, half of the job
of everybody in the Warren Legacy Foundation, is f figuring
out what we're dealing with. The paranormal is messy. It
isn't cut and dry, and just because we're dealing with
drug abuse or mental illness, that doesn't rule out the paranormal.
That's the vehicle for the manifestation that we have to
deal with. I suggest you go to the Warren Legacy Foundation.
(40:17):
It's called Warren Legacy Foundation dot com. There's a contact
us link there. Fill out our Google form. It's very detailed.
We ask a lot of information. It gives us a
sense of what you're dealing with. So then we can
figure out the next step and we'll set up an
appointment with you. We'll ask you for more information again,
and we'll then develop a service plan on how best
(40:38):
to help you. If you need to, just reach out
to me, if you have a question or what have
you and reach out to me. Chris McKinnell on Facebook,
Warren Files on Instagram, and TikTok. That's it. I mean,
our services are free and confidential. The only thing I
charge for is presentations and consultations that are outside of
people in crisis. Only because I'm spending about sixteen hours
(41:01):
a day helping people, I don't have the bandwidth to
just sit and chat unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Right, well fair enough, I mean, my god, life is expensive,
you know. So yeah, Chris, thank you so much. I
really appreciate your time to be continued.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Thank you,
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