October 30, 2025 • 41 mins
Chris McKinnell, one of the world's most respected paranormal investigators (grandson of Ed & Lorraine Warren), joins JoJo to discuss some of his most harrowing cases and encounters, growing up in the Warren family, The Conjuring series, and more!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Paranormalist. It's Jojo, right, and
I'll keep this intro short. This might be my favorite
podcast I've ever done. His name is Chris McKinnel, and
he'll explain. But he's got some very famous grandparents who
taught him a lot, and then he's expanded on what
he's learned in the paranormal field. His grandparents are Ed
(00:21):
and Lorraine Warren. His name is Chris McKinnel. Oh my god,
wait till you hear this. I call this episode Chris McKinnell.
The Warren Files enjoy Jojo on the radio Paranormal Normal.
(00:42):
Chris McKinnel, It is so good to finally meet you.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I am doing great, Jojo. It's pleasure to meet you.
Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Absolutely. I'm going through, you know, just scrolling Instagram the
other day and somehow your your page just you know,
pops up in my feed. I'm like, oh my god,
how I never talked to this guy a DM do
you think? And well, maybe he'll see this, maybe you won't.
About twenty minutes later, boom, we're best friends on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So there's that you made me laugh because you asked
for my PR guy.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Okay, yeah, you know sometimes if you talk with you know,
if you don't include the PR guy, they get all,
you know, bent out of shape. So that I did
the you know, the usual there. But hey, Chris, you're
in what I'm sitting here in Burbank, Burbank, California. As
we talk here you are in your aware I'm in
a sunsee. Oh wow, what brought you out there?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, I travel around the world and I've been here
a year and a half. Now. I go to places
so I can learn how the paranormal manifests and different cultures,
how those cultures deal with it. I'm here to learn.
I'm a I'm a student for life, all right.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
If you don't know the backstory, let me give a
quick quick run on here. Chris McKinnell. He has some
very famous grandparents in the paranormal space. Probably the most
famous grandparents in the paranormal world. You can, popsip have
your grandparents are Ed and Lorraine Warren. I mean, if
you're in the paranormal community, you know exactly who they are.
(02:08):
I guess my first question is when did you realize
that my grandparents aren't the typical grandparents. There's something different.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Actually, it's my very first memory. I was maybe three
years old and it was nighttime and my two year
old sister locked me in the museum. Yeah shut I mean,
I don't get me wrong. I was in there all
of maybe a minute or two, but I was screaming
my ass off, looking at that tiger head staring at
(02:38):
me from the table, and my grandfather came running out
of the office and got me out of there immediately.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Oh my god. All right, so let me just jump
into that. That was one of my questions a little farther down.
But uh, we're talking about the Warren Occult Museum. Which
is which is or was? I'm not sure in their house.
We've seen it in all the movies. We'll talk about
the movies later. I know the movies are, you know,
a dramaticized version of what of reality? But in this
war On occult museum in their house, you were locked
(03:05):
in there. What did you come face to face with?
Because that museum is bigger than life for a lot
of us.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You know, it's just a it's an art studio that
because my grandparents were artists, and it's attached to the
house at this point in history. It wasn't even attached.
But all I saw were ghoulish things hanging on the
wall and that tiger skin that I will remember for
the rest of my life. And my grandfather told me
the story of that skin. He said it had been
(03:32):
taken this tiger had been taken over by a black
magic user in India, and it had murdered dozens of villagers.
They couldn't kill it with regular bullets, but when they
used special blessed bullets, it also killed the magic.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
User WHOA Okay, obviously we know about the Annabelle doll.
That's probably the most famous artifact in this museum, and
the museum, to my understanding, is basically artifacts they've collected
from their investigations. Sure or falls onnes.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
No no half and half. Other things were things that
were put in there for educational purposes. I worked with
the Peace Corps in Africa, and when I came back,
I had fetish dolls and touring daggers and all sorts
of stuff to give my grandfather. It's now sitting in
the museum, not attached to any particular case, but because
they were good for teaching people.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I still can't get out of my head. As a kid,
you were locked in there, I would have and I
think most people would have just freaked out.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I was afraid of the dark until I was sixteen
because of it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah wow, all right, let's back to the animel doll.
Is it in fact locked in a glass case inside
the museum, the famous annibl doll?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, at that point it didn't. It wasn't in the
museum at all, and probably up until nineteen seventy four,
it wasn't contained, it wasn't bound. My grandparents were always learning.
That's something people don't understand about them. When you're watching
those old videos and reading their old books, you're only
getting a snapshot in time. You're not seeing where they
progressed to. This is a field research, you know. It's
(05:01):
not a static thing. It's always growing. And they had
it sitting in a rocking chair for years.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
My god, all right, do me a favor, give me
a story, maybe two on the museum. What have you experienced?
What what comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Oh? Sure you remember that big seven foot tall demon statue.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I sure do.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, that's actually from one of my cases. Shut up, yeah,
now that was one of mine. I was in. It
was in Newtown, Connecticut. It was a pregnant woman and
her husband. She claimed he was coming under possession, so
my grandfather sent me and my partner out there. We
felt there was something to it, so we decided to
spend the night. At the middle of the night, the
woman starts screaming. My partner is like shaking me. She screaming.
(05:44):
She screamed, I know, get out of my way. I
pushed him out of the way. I ran across the room.
This guy was levitated over this pregnant woman. You saw this,
I listen. I've seen levitation three times in my life.
Shut up of human beings. I ran. I tackled him
out of midair. I was a lot younger. We hit
(06:05):
the bed on the other side of this woman rolled off.
I ended up on top of him on the floor.
My partner came up behind me, throwing holy water and screaming,
and by the power Jesus Christ, like a man did
be gone and we were able to get him out
of it. Now this place was right next door to
a funeral long one morning we were leaving the house
and there were four men in a car waiting for us.
(06:26):
Now I'd grown up in Newtown, Connecticut, so I knew
the roads we were being chased. I went booking through
these back roads and we escaped them. But a while later,
I can't tell you how long, I don't remember. Maybe
it was a few weeks, a month, whatever, there was
a hunter way in back in the woods from the house.
He came across that statue in front of a big
(06:47):
stone that had wax and it looked like maybe some blood.
It had been used as some kind of makeshift alter.
And the theory we've come up with is those men
were Satanists who were trying to use any kind of
Necroman energy that was in the funeral home, and somehow
there was a spillover to this man in the other house.
He was being affected by it because he was too sensitive.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Okay, those kind of stories just blow my mind, just bomb.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, that was a hell of a thing. It really was.
The police came, they saw the statue and they turned
it over to my grandfather.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Now, the statue, when you put something like that in
the museum, does it still have a power to it
or is it just contained to the museum, or how
do you stop it from doing that? Again?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You're supposed to bind these things. Now. Whether or not
that's still being done, I'm not sure, but you're supposed
to put rituals around it to bind the energies, to
keep it so it's in the object itself. My grandfather
always said, do not touch anything, do not challenge anything,
and everything's fine. If you do touch anything, tell him
(07:47):
immediately so he can spiritually cleanse you. It was something
we took very, very seriously.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Is there anything you are still afraid of to this
day in the museum?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
No, I'm like a snake handler, I know, to be
respect I'm more afraid for the public than I am
of my own personal safety. Plus I don't go in there,
you know. I'm South America for goodness sake.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I wonder if, like the people in the neighborhood, you know,
kids are curious. Oh yeah, dude, I'm sure they knock
on the door and try to do they get a
lot of listen.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I lived with my grandmother the last year and a
half of her life, and I remember one night after
one of the Annabel movies came out, probably in twenty eighteen.
Two kids had taken an uber from New Jersey from
directly from the movie to the house at night and
they were clamoring all over the house trying to get
in to see Annabel.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I assume you guys call the police, and oh no.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
We don't have to the police are always watching that house.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
All right, Well let's segue, you know, nice segue there, Chris,
into the Conjuring series. We were talking off you know,
off air. I guess you could say you love the series.
You know, but people, we hope are sophisticated enough to
know that it's not a documentary. There's a that's crazy
Hollywood license they've taken to make it dramatic, and they've
done a great job of it. It's phenomenal, but it's
(09:05):
not exactly a doc like you said, So your thoughts
on the series.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, they're great. You know. I love Vera and I
love Patrick. They're amazing as actors. They're just fantastic. Vera
in particular, she and my grandmother loved each other, and
Vera I respect because she respected my grandmother and wanted
to do a good job for her. She's a very earthly,
you know, spiritual person and my grandmother responded well to that.
(09:30):
But yeah, the movies are fantasies. They're look, my grandparents
loved each other very very much. They were my heroes,
but they weren't superheroes. My grandmother did have abilities, and
very amazing abilities. I blew my mind when I would
watch her sometimes. But even she said, the best psychic
in the world is only rite sixty percent of the time.
(09:51):
So I always caution people, don't bet your life on
a psychic, you know, don't change your life without evidence.
Be careful. The movies, well, let's go with annabel first,
the annabel movies. Annabelle's a real thing, and it is deadly,
but it isn't what people think it is. And those
movies are not based on any reality whatsoever at all.
(10:11):
And the Nun doesn't exist. That's a James One creation.
But Frenchie did the character Frenchie in the Nun. That's
Maurice Theil And that's another one of my cases, which.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
I'm going to bring that up later for sure. Sure, Hey,
just to stay with the Conjuring series that well, the
latest one, The Conjuring Last writes the Smirl Family Haunting,
which is what it's based on. You. You were the
first investigator to go into the house before your grandparents.
You gathered info and basically to my understanding, presented it
to your grandparents. So this is your case, you know,
in a way. What can you tell me about you know,
(10:43):
when you first entered the house, what what caught your eye?
What made what made you believe them?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Well, it's not fair to say it was my case.
I was just the first one in there.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
You know, my grandparents used a lot of investigators. I
just happened to be the ones they were using then.
And I went in with a kid from college who
had no idea what we were going to be facing. Boy,
and we went in simply with a cassette recorder. First
thing we did is try to capture anything we could,
and I caught pig noises in the bedroom. Yeah like that,
(11:13):
and sorry to your sound engineer, but we would hear
tappings and other noises coming from the basement. And then
I was in the master bedroom and I was just
praying and the bedroom door slam shut. So I started
praying to Padre Peel because he's somebody that my family
(11:35):
thinks of as our patron scene and the whole room
smelled like roses. I was like, all right, we're in good,
good hands here. Everything's fine. But one night I was
walking up the stairs, and this is something people have
a hard time believing. And I don't blame anybody who
hasn't lived through this, and I'm not trying to convince
anybody of my life experience. I'm just saying it happened.
(11:56):
I was walking up the stairs. Missus s Merle was
at the top of the stairs with poor Doug, my
friend from college, and all of a sudden, I get
woozy and I'm like rocking and I'm floating over the stairs.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
What gun?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, and they reached out and grabbed me immediately and
pulled me right in. I couldn't tell you how long
I was in the air, but it turns out, and
I didn't know this until I was just doing some
research myself. Mister and Missus Smirle were also levitated from
their beds at a point, and one of their daughters
was thrown down the stairs. Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
So yeah, you get this kind of info, and clearly
it's time to bring in the big guns when you
see and feel and experience something like that. So what
do you do with this info?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Immediately called my grandfather and told him what was going on,
and he had me go in for a couple more
weekends and gather more information. But that was the bulk
of what I got over that time. And although there
was one weird thing, Missus Smirle told me that just
like within weeks of my being there, they had discovered
(12:58):
partially digested twin that she had absorbed in the womb
that had become this fibrous mass in her belly and
they had to remove it. Now, that's not unusual really
to absorb a fetus, but to have that kind of
a hairy mass in your belly, that's pretty unusual.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
So how do you think that played into the case.
Is there a tie there?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
You know, here's the thing about the paranormal. If you
try to always say you understand everything and you know
the answers, you're not. You don't, and you have to
accept that there are going to be times you don't
know what you're dealing with. I was only twenty one
years old. I didn't even know the questions to ask
back then. I had no idea. If I could, that
(13:41):
would be one of the cases I would love to
go back and reinvestigate properly. Having said that, once a
case is finished, I don't believe in going back. I
think these people who go into the conjuring house and elsewhere,
they're opening doors that have been closed. They're specifically going
in there to try to get something to manifest. I
think that it's incredibly dangerous because my grandmother taught me
(14:03):
like attracts, Like the energy you put out is what
you will attract, and unfortunately the paranormal can attract a
lot of broken people. You don't want that energy in
those places.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Once you brought this info back to your grandparents, then
they did what they did. You know, were you part
of that investigation as well? Were you there watching what
was going on with U smirls? Yes?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
No. Once my grandparents got involved, I was done. I
saw the publicity, I saw how crazy it all got,
and I have to admit it was something that made
me very uncomfortable. But I also understood they were using
publicity kind of like as leverage against the church to
make them work. We had run into so many problems
dealing with the church, the Catholic Church in particular, because
(14:47):
even though the Pope may say this is real and
we need to work with people and help them, local
bishops can be very very careful and more like politicians
about it. And sometimes you just have to guilt them
to getting help. And that's why my grandparents did it
that way. Not every time, but when they had to.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's a shame because that's the whole point of the
church as far as I see it, to help someone.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Right, it should be yeah, but that's not been my experience.
We had a case where an exorcist who called himself
father anonymous. O, no, are you father A? We had
to call him father A. He said to me point blank,
if the public finds out about this case, I will
walk away. The church is more important than any family.
(15:30):
I was like, boy, you don't seem to understand the teachings.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Of Christ, and you think it'd be the exact opposite exact.
You mentioned the word exorcist and we were talking off
camera a moment ago. Once again and this has sort
of taking a left turn, but you met the real
exorcist from well, the movie The Exorcist was based on
a true story. You met the real exorcist that that
was based on, correct?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I met one of three There were three of exorcists,
and I happened to meet one when I was fourteen
years old.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
What was that experience like?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Oh, he came up to us. I was on a
tour with my grandparents, lecture tour and he came up
at the end of it and just introduced himself. The most,
the sweetest, most humble man imaginable, And it taught me
to approach this with humility. This isn't about me. It's
not about us at all. You know, it's God, And
(16:17):
if anything goes right, you can thank God. If anything
goes wrong, you can blame me.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Wow, we'll get to see some more of the terrifying
cases in a few seconds. But you mentioned prior to this,
some paranormal cases aren't scary, you know, some have Like
I think you said, you had spirits of family members
visit you. I think you said. I know this is
probably a sensitive story, and I wouldn't bring it up
if you hadn't brought it up to me, But your
fiance who passed away, give me whatever stories you care
to share. I would love to hear some of those.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Oh. The truth is, but more often than not, your
fear is caused by not understanding what you're dealing with.
You're dealing with the unknown, and you immediately are afraid.
And I understand that, but it's usually just somebody trying
to get your attention. They're taking your keys, they're jiggling
the doorknobs. I had a case recently here in Paraguay
where the woman contacted me because she was sure she
(17:05):
had demons in her house. They were rattling her doors
and opening the doors and knocking, and I went in
and I worked in the house twice, and it turned
out it was her father and he was warning her
that her ex boyfriend was dangerous. It turned out he
certainly was very dangerous. He had threatened to kill me
and this woman's mother if she didn't pay him money. Wow. Yeah,
(17:29):
it just goes to show that love continues even after
you die. Diana my fiance when my son was eight
years old. Diana and I had fallen in love. She
had three kids, who bought a house together. We were
ready to move in and the Sunday before Thanksgiving she
collapsed and it was discovered she had non Hodgkinson m foma,
(17:50):
and cancer can be really hard on a relationship. I
wanted to take care of her, she wanted to be
with her mother. It caused stress, so at the end
of the last two weeks of her life, we didn't
talk too much. I was actually writing her a letter
saying cancer is not going to kill you, don't let
it kill our love. The moment she died, oh my god.
She died within two hours of my mother's birthday. The
(18:13):
weird coincidence is her father died on my birthday and
she was born or my son was born on her birthday. Wow,
I know, really weird. But she came to me the
night before the funeral. My grandmother and my mother and
my son were in the master bedroom. I was in
my son's room. I was still awake. She came to me,
(18:33):
and I'm trying to tell her how much I love her,
how much I miss her, and she's saying, sh it's okay,
it's okay, don't worry about it. It's all fine. But
I wouldn't have stopped. I'm crying, and I could hear
my mother in the hallway and I call out to
her and she thinks I'm talking in my sleep, so
she doesn't come in. I wanted her to see this.
But about two weeks later, I was in the master
bedroom by myself. No one was hong pitch black, couldn't
(18:56):
see a thing, and I hear footsteps coming down the hallway.
They woke me up heavy footsteps. My fiance was a
heavy woman. And I opened my eyes and there was
a mirror on the back of the bedroom door, and
she was propped up on one elbow, looking down at
me from behind me, with a smile on her face.
And I was like, oh, no, I'm not going to
(19:18):
watch you leave again. And I know it doesn't make sense.
I closed my eyes. I didn't want to see her
leave again. And she got right in front of me
and she said, very clearly, I love you, and she
physically kissed me on the lips physically, And that was
the very last time she ever visited. It was unfinished business.
(19:39):
She needed me to know because we weren't talking because
of the stress of her dying. She needed me to
know how she felt.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That's about a specialize, a gainst right there.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh it doesn't get better. I mean, my grandmother has visited,
but that's not even as good as Diana.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
If I may ask, when you see something what her specifically?
Does she look like me or you alive? You know?
Like so like if you didn't know she had passed
and you saw what she looked like, you would think
she was perfectly fine, right or not?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Well that clear. Here's the thing that was made it unusual.
In this particular case. I shouldn't have been able to
see anything in the mirror because it was too dark,
but I did.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Huh, so she had Yeah, she had a glow to her.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I guess, right, not that I could say, but see her,
so I suppose.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
But here's another weird thing that happened yesterday. Now this
doesn't happen very often, so this is really weird. I
have an uncle in Adelaide, in Australia, and he has
this wonderful dog. And so I see his dog walk
by him behind him while we're talking. I said, oh,
there's Katie, he says terencey. He says, no, No, Katie's
over there in the chair, curled up. I said, I
just saw your dog walk by. That said, wait a minute,
(20:48):
did you ever have a large dog with a shaggy
black back? Yep? She It was the dog that actually
has come back to him. It was a German shepherd.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Wow. Okay, this gift you have a gift or maybe
considered a curse at times. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I don't know. It's a gift. It's from my grandmother
and God.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
That was my next question, like, how do you develop
something like this or do you just get it passed down?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
It is genetic, not always, but I believe everybody has
the ability. We have neuroplasticity when we're younger and we
develop pathways. But when you're a child, they're very open
and impliable, and people can be much more open to
the paranormal and to these things that are out there.
It's just as we get older, we develop those pathways
(21:32):
and normally in very normal ways, so we don't we're
not open to the unusual. You can train yourself, just
like people with traumatic brain injury can rewire the brains.
You can train yourself to be open to the paranormal,
but it takes effort and it takes practice, repetitive practice
to make that work. I have noticed that it's mostly
women who are psychic, and the majority of men who
(21:55):
are psychic are gay, which is odd. But my theory
is that the reason they are is perhaps it's like
an adaptation that they need to be more sensitive to
what's around them, given that it can be dangerous to
be gay in culture, in our cultures, and also because
they're allowed to be more feeling culturally more sensitive, whereas
(22:17):
most of us heterosexual men are more you know, very
straight and narrow and not open to those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
You've heard a couple of sweet stories, obviously, but you know,
make no mistake, this is a dangerous career that you have.
What do people need to know before they would pursue
something like this? I saw you mentioned that as well.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Oh, they need to know an awful lot. And I've
said this many times. Don't think that when you watch
something on television or TikTok or YouTube or whatever, that
you're really learning how to do this. That's like watching
Gray's Anatomy and then picking up a scalpel. It's not
the same. You should go into this setting spiritual boundaries
always out loud. I'm here to help, I'm not. I
(22:58):
don't want you following me when I leave, and then
when you leave you say you're no longer allowed to
follow me. You should also be using some form of faith.
Whatever your faith is doesn't really matter. That's one thing
I've learned in all of my travels. Whatever God is,
and I don't profess to know, whatever that higher power is,
will answer prayers for everybody. It's all about focusing your
(23:19):
intention and your belief through some form of ritual to
protect yourself. Do that. Go in there with humility, go
in there with the intention of helping both the living
and the dead. And you're almost there. You're getting there.
But don't be afraid. Don't ever exploit anybody that's in
the home. Don't look. I do everything I do for
(23:40):
free and confidentially. I help families in crisis. My job
is not to expose them to the public, and I
don't want anybody else to do that. That's why you
don't see me on TikTok with a two second video
of a coffee cup flying crossroom. That's not us. Now,
we're here to help.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
If someone were to jump into this career and do
exactly the opposite of what you suggested, what's the worst
case scenario and what have you seen as far as
people taken advantage of this, even.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
When you know what you're doing, even when you're good
at it. Like Ed Warren in the Exorcism of Maurice's Theils,
I was the guy standing between Bishop McKenna and Maurice.
My grandfather and grandmother weren't actively participating at all in
the exorcism. They were off to the side and my
grandfather was having a heart attack during the exorcism.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, and my grandmother couldn't see it. Another reason I
don't trust psychics. My grandmother was too close to him.
When your emotions are involved, or when you already know something,
you can't trust your psychic abilities. I can't go into
a place knowing something and expect or trust myself. I
have to go in completely cold. But another time, I mean, look,
I've had the gas turn on my stove three nights
(24:50):
in a row without the flame because I was about
on a bad case. I've had the brakes go out
in the car moments after I had just say, helped
the fan. These are the kinds of things you will
deal with. I had a man, one of my colleagues.
I was sending him on a very bad case out
in the DC area, and the night before this guy
(25:11):
was only like forty two forty three years old. The
night before going on this really bad case, he had
a massive stroke. So did all of this happen because
of negative energies. I don't know that for sure, but
it's certainly something to think about. I mean, I remember,
for I've never had my TV turn on just for
no reason. But I scheduled an extorcism in Tennessee for
(25:33):
a woman and that night, at two o'clock in the morning,
my TV and my computer blared on in the middle
of the night. My wife is like, oh, let's go see.
It's like, no, not, just ignore it. And I was like, enough,
turn off now? And it did.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
You mentioned the Maurice Theeal case. Kind of give me
the details of that case. I wanted to bring that up,
but I don't know all the specifics of it.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh, there's an entire book on that one. The poor man,
I mean, in a nutshell. He was a horribly abused,
illiterate French Canadian farmer. His father was a monster. His
father called him one day said Maurice, I just want
you to know I love you, first time he ever
said it. Then, while Maurice was listening on the phone,
he walked in the next room, picked up a gun,
(26:12):
murdered Maurice's mother, and then killed himself. What Yeah, Well
it gets a lot worse. All of a sudden, Maurice
starts having things like words carved in French on his back,
saying the door is open. No one else in the
family spoke French and he couldn't write it, so he
had to translate whatever was on his back. I watched
(26:33):
him one after well after some of these things were
going on, we got a phone call. We went in there, me,
my partner, Ray Jefferson, and my grandparents. After the initial interview,
my grandfather thought, it's the father. The father is attacking you.
He's a monster. Let's go to the grave and you
forgive your father, tell him you love him, and you
just wanted to be at peace. As we're standing there,
(26:53):
Maurice is crying talking to his dad. I was maybe
nine or ten feet away from him. We all watched
him get punched underneath the chin so hard it lifted
him off his feet and threw him back about ten
feet flat on his back. And that's when my grandfather decided,
all right, Ray Chris, we want you to stay here
for a while. I watched him come under possession and
(27:14):
right in front of me he would bleed from the eyes.
His eyes would look like a snake. And then we
were in the greenhouse planting seedlings. It was early spring.
He was cold. I said, walk on over to the
wood fire and we'll keep working. Ray said, Chris, look
at his eyes. He was under possession. His eyes looked
like a snake and he was crying tears of blood.
(27:34):
I had Maurice or I had Ray take Nancy, his wife,
up to the house, and I confronted Maurice or whatever
was there and eventually got him out of it. But
afterward he said his bag was bothering him. And I
lifted up his shirt and his T shirt had three
bloody crosses in it. Now, what's interesting is when I
lifted up the T shirt, there was blood on his back,
(27:56):
but there were no cuts. So I, yeah, weird. So
I said to him, I need this shirt. I was
at the University of Kennecticut at the time. I said
I need this shirt. I want to go have it
tested and see what this is? Is a pig blood?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Kum blood? What is this? So we went back up
to the house and I watched him take off both shirts.
He hands me the white T shirt and there's no
blood on it.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
It's gone, Okay, that's bizarre.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I don't know. I don't but we did the exorcism,
and unfortunately we didn't understand yet that there were underlying
issues that made him vulnerable to the paranormal that made
these things manifest the way they did. It's a life
lesson I've taken and it's changed everything I do. But
two years later, when I was in the Peace Corps
(28:39):
in Molly in West Africa, his wife Nancy called my
grandparents and said, he's coming under possession again. I'm not
going through this again. I'm getting a court order against him.
He's out well. She was coming home from work one night,
getting out of the car. He was waiting for her.
He had a shotgun. He blew her arm off, dragged
her bleeding in to the kitchen, satder at the kitchen table,
(29:03):
and she said, this is it. I'm going to die,
just like Maurice's mother. And at the last moment he
put the shotgun under his own head and blew his
head off.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, so yes, it can be. It's only the first
first of two deaths that I can attribute to possession. Possession,
by the way, is not common. I've had over ten
thousand cases, most of which are very nothing. You know,
a few phone calls, some counseling and everything's fine. But
I've only had about twelve possession cases in forty four years.
(29:36):
People who tell you that they do three hundred and
fifty exorcisms a year, they're not doing that. They're maybe
doing something called a deliverance, which is, oh, you have
a porn addiction, We're going to free you from that.
That's not the.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Same what that is mind blowing, terrifying, sad, every Oh
my god. Yeah, I think your first case was your
most over the top poltergeist case you've ever been. Would
you mind kind of walking me through that?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Sure? Yeah? That one. Look, I know this is going
to sound crazy, and I have never ever experienced anything
like this. Again, this was over the top, one hundred
miles a minute case. I get called. I'm sixteen years old,
it's nineteen eighty one, and my grandfather decides I'm going
on my first case. I never even knew I was
going on a case. It wasn't on my bucket list.
(30:25):
I was afraid of the dark still, you know. But
we went up to Lee, Massachusetts with a man named
Paul Barts, who was an assistant of my grandfather's, and
the husband and wife were sitting outside of this tracked home,
afraid to go in by themselves. Now there had already
been poltergeist phenomena. There had been appliances flying across the room,
and tables and all sorts of stuff, and the woman
(30:47):
had even been in the master bedroom. It started. Let
me back up a little bit. It had been started
because they had inherited the home from the man's uncle
when he died, and the first night they moved in,
a little apparition of a little boy appeared in the
bedroom door and said, where do all the lonely people go?
The woman immediately called her priest and had a house cleansing,
(31:09):
and afterward the child never came back, but this hulking,
black shape manifested that night. The husband had gone to
work at the mill that night. He was on rotating shifts,
and this thing came in, picked up her rosary beads
off the bedpost and twirled them as if to say,
you think this is going to stop me? She ran
(31:30):
out of there. She was trying to get to her first.
She had two daughters across the hall in two different bedrooms.
She tried to open the bedroom door, which didn't have
a lock on it, and it wouldn't open. The attic
pulled downstairs, came down on her head and knocked her
senseless once she was able to gather herself together, she
got the girls out and that was the last time
they were in there. When we entered, the whole house
(31:52):
was shaking from poundings in the wall in repetitions of
three and my grandfather said, that's a sure sign of
the demonic. I have my own opinions on these things.
I mean, my grandfather and grandmother were the best mentors
in the world, but again it's field of research. Things
change over time as we adapt. My grandparents changed all
(32:12):
the time. But at that point, that's where we were
with our understanding, and downstairs was just a couch and
a recliner. Most of the furniture was gone because of
things flying in the kitchen. There were a couple of things,
and that's it. As we're going up the stairs, I
can hear growling and cloying in the walls, and the
walls are practically shaking. We get to the top of
the stairs, I look into the bathroom to my left
(32:36):
and there's this giant crucifix on the wall and it's
upside down, straight out on lightwood, and the pull downstairs
to the attic were pulled down, and my grandfather says, Chris,
I want you to sit in the master bedroom in
the dark and let us know what happens. We're going
to go downstairs. We're gonna light Holy Church incense, and
we're gonna stir this thing up so it reveals itself.
(32:57):
I was like, you don't know what we're dealing with.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
So they put the incense in a cooking pot and
they're smudged downstairs and they're trying to get up the
stairs and it keeps going out And for an hour,
I'm listening to this growling inclinging right behind my head
in the wall, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Like, grat I hear this. I'm afraid of the dark.
I don't want to be in that. But after an
hour it was over. Everything quieted down and I went downstairs.
Now we were on WTICAM radio ten sixty with Brian
Dowell out of Hartford, Connecticut overnight. It was a call
in radio show and we had phones all hooked up
(33:34):
ready to go. At three o'clock in the morning, the
woman and my grandfather are sitting on the couch. I'm
in the recliner across from them. Paul Bart's and the
husband are upstairs on a princess phone. In one of
the girl's rooms, and it's a bitch black. Three o'clock
in the morning, two hulking black shapes come down the stairs.
We have a picture of one of these things in
the bedroom. I can share it with you. It came
(33:55):
down the stairs and just stood there on the landing,
and we could see it even in the dark. Three fifteen,
all hell broke loose. The woman screamed, her face was
on fire. My grandfather put the flashlight on her face,
and there were three claw marks that appeared right on
the left side of her cheek, and blood dripping down
her chest. Then the pot with the church incense in
it flew around the corner. I'm on the phone quietly
(34:18):
with a crucifix on the other the saying crucifix was
upstairs in my other hand, and I'm quietly saying, by
the power of Jesus Christ, that command keep me gone.
By the power I mean, that's what my grandfather told
me to do. And this pot flies around the corner
and straight up my head just missed me hit the
window behind me. The shade flew up, the pot crumpled,
and the window didn't break. The woman starts screaming, she
(34:40):
wants out of the house. I'm thinking, great idea, let
me help you. Yeah, I'm there. I run to the
front door, and we'd been in and out of that door,
and it wouldn't open, and the lights are going on
and off around me. The recliner i'd just been in
now tumbles across the room at me, and then the
door opens by itself, and she and I run out,
and I turned back and there's my grandfather sitting with
(35:04):
the lights going on and off. He's just on the
phone telling everybody what's going on, comments could be. I
was like, that is the bravest person I've ever seen
in my entire life, honestly, wow. And I will be
grateful to him till the day I die. Because the
next night I went home and for the first time
in my childhood, I went to bed without the light on.
(35:26):
I learned if you face your fears, if you can
immerse yourself in them, you can overcome them and you
can free yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I could talk to you for hours, and I plan to.
You can say no, but I want to do about
one hundred podcasts with you, Chris, Jesus, these are some
amazing stories.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Apply You're a great guy.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh my god, but after all you've seen, does anything
keep you up at night? I mean, what could scare you?
After that?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
You're gonna hear to laugh fame That can be pretty scary. Yeah.
I was in three of my grandparents' books and I
asked them to take my name out of it after
the first edition. I didn't like it. I'm only coming
forward now because I can't use them as my buffer.
I have to step forward. I have a responsibility to
(36:12):
the public and I have to help where I can,
and I can't do that if people don't know where
to find me.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
What are you working on now? Do you have a
case that's underway at the moment?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Oh, We have a number of them. As a matter
of fact, we've just worked on one in England, like
twenty minutes before I was talking to you. I don't
have the details on that right now. I have to
get them from my team, so I'll be doing that
as soon as I'm off with you. I'm also working well,
we've got a lot of them, but we're working with
another woman in trying to marry Oh in California, and
(36:46):
she's having a lot of manifestations of dark looking entities.
Here's the thing I want to explain to people the
paranormal will manifest according to your beliefs. When we're faced
with the un we will put a face on it.
We would rather believe in the devil than deal with
the unknown, because the devil comes with rules that we
(37:07):
can understand, and that unknown doesn't. That's just too terrifying
for us. I have seen this in everywhere I go
around the world. We control the manifestation. If it's not
a human spirit, I mean, then we're dealing with something
that we are capable of making taking form the way
we fear it to be. There are cryptids reported by
(37:28):
the thousands all over the world, all sorts, thousands of
different types. In Perule alone, there's over a thousand different
types of cryptids in two encyclopedias. Do you believe that
there are really a thousand different kinds of magical creatures
we haven't discovered in just one little country. No, But
when we're faced with the unknown, we give it a face.
So yes, I'm always working on something. I just helped
(37:50):
the woman today who's dealing with out of control psychic abilities,
So I was helping her learn how to protect herself,
how to develop them properly. How to ground herself. This
is something my grandmother did helping people with their gifts
because often, you know, they suffer from anxiety, they get
overwhelmed by different energies. I actually started an online support
(38:13):
group on Facebook that anybody who is gifted is welcome
to join for free. We've got over almost a thousand
members on there around the world. It's a very supportive community,
but it is only to help them. It's not about oh,
let's do a reading, or here's a dark thing. What
do you think this is? What are you picking up?
None of that crap. We don't want to overwhelm them.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Do you find that a lot of them? And this
is a question I had for you as well, and
the movie for example, the sixth sense comes to mind.
You wake up and they're staring at you. Do you
have that? Do they have that? Happen often a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Of my people do. I'm lucky. I used to be
a lot more open, and I'm told constantly that I've
got amazing walls up. My grandmother was very good at
that with me. I used to read ours and things
like that. But it turns out that the curse, the
curse of Cassandra, is very real people do not like
you to tell the truth. They don't want you to
(39:07):
see the truth. They want you to say beautiful things
about them. That's not me. I don't. I don't lie,
so I can't. I've refused to read or as I
will not. I haven't done it in thirty five years.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Wow, well, Chris, at some point I would love to
join you for something you pick. I don't know what
it is. I want to make sure it's obviously something
you think is appropriate. But uh, I want to join
you for something. I want to have you back on
as a guest. I want to cover more cases that
you are just a fascinating guy, and I just I
think it's such a pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
It's a pleasure to meet you. I've been looking forward
to this really well.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Same, I guess. Final question, if people want to reach
out to you they're going through something, is the best
way Instagram or how do you suggest they reach out
to you? And what information would they need would you
need to get from them to say all right, you've
got you've got a problem.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Right. Well, fifty half of my job, half of the
job of everybody in the Warren Legacy Foundation is fa
fguring out what we're dealing with. The paranormal is messy.
It isn't cut and dry, and just because we're dealing
with drug abuse or mental illness, that doesn't rule out
the paranormal. That's the vehicle for the manifestation that we
have to deal with. I suggest you go to the
(40:15):
Warren Legacy Foundation. It's called Warren Legacy Foundation dot com.
There's a contact us link there. Fill out our Google form.
It's very detailed. We ask a lot of information. It
gives us a sense of what you're dealing with. So
then we can figure out the next step and we'll
set up an appointment with you. We'll ask you for
more information again, and we'll then develop a service plan
(40:37):
on how best to help you. If you need to
just reach out to me, if you have a question
or what have you and reach out to me. Chris
McKinnell on Facebook, Warren Files on Instagram, and TikTok. That's it.
I mean, our services are free and confidential. The only
thing I charge for is presentations and consultations that are
outside of people in crisis. Only because I'm spending about
(41:00):
sixteen hours a day helping people, I don't have the
bandwidth to just sit and chat unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Right, well fair enough, I mean, my god, life is expensive,
you know. So yeah, Chris, thank you so much. I
really appreciate your time. To be continued.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Thank you,
Welcome to another episode of Paranormalist. It's Jojo, right, and
I'll keep this intro short. This might be my favorite
podcast I've ever done. His name is Chris McKinnel, and
he'll explain. But he's got some very famous grandparents who
taught him a lot, and then he's expanded on what
he's learned in the paranormal field. His grandparents are Ed
(00:21):
and Lorraine Warren. His name is Chris McKinnel. Oh my god,
wait till you hear this. I call this episode Chris McKinnell.
The Warren Files enjoy Jojo on the radio Paranormal Normal.
(00:42):
Chris McKinnel, It is so good to finally meet you.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I am doing great, Jojo. It's pleasure to meet you.
Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Absolutely. I'm going through, you know, just scrolling Instagram the
other day and somehow your your page just you know,
pops up in my feed. I'm like, oh my god,
how I never talked to this guy a DM do
you think? And well, maybe he'll see this, maybe you won't.
About twenty minutes later, boom, we're best friends on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So there's that you made me laugh because you asked
for my PR guy.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Okay, yeah, you know sometimes if you talk with you know,
if you don't include the PR guy, they get all,
you know, bent out of shape. So that I did
the you know, the usual there. But hey, Chris, you're
in what I'm sitting here in Burbank, Burbank, California. As
we talk here you are in your aware I'm in
a sunsee. Oh wow, what brought you out there?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, I travel around the world and I've been here
a year and a half. Now. I go to places
so I can learn how the paranormal manifests and different cultures,
how those cultures deal with it. I'm here to learn.
I'm a I'm a student for life, all right.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
If you don't know the backstory, let me give a
quick quick run on here. Chris McKinnell. He has some
very famous grandparents in the paranormal space. Probably the most
famous grandparents in the paranormal world. You can, popsip have
your grandparents are Ed and Lorraine Warren. I mean, if
you're in the paranormal community, you know exactly who they are.
(02:08):
I guess my first question is when did you realize
that my grandparents aren't the typical grandparents. There's something different.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Actually, it's my very first memory. I was maybe three
years old and it was nighttime and my two year
old sister locked me in the museum. Yeah shut I mean,
I don't get me wrong. I was in there all
of maybe a minute or two, but I was screaming
my ass off, looking at that tiger head staring at
(02:38):
me from the table, and my grandfather came running out
of the office and got me out of there immediately.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Oh my god. All right, so let me just jump
into that. That was one of my questions a little farther down.
But uh, we're talking about the Warren Occult Museum. Which
is which is or was? I'm not sure in their house.
We've seen it in all the movies. We'll talk about
the movies later. I know the movies are, you know,
a dramaticized version of what of reality? But in this
war On occult museum in their house, you were locked
(03:05):
in there. What did you come face to face with?
Because that museum is bigger than life for a lot
of us.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You know, it's just a it's an art studio that
because my grandparents were artists, and it's attached to the
house at this point in history. It wasn't even attached.
But all I saw were ghoulish things hanging on the
wall and that tiger skin that I will remember for
the rest of my life. And my grandfather told me
the story of that skin. He said it had been
(03:32):
taken this tiger had been taken over by a black
magic user in India, and it had murdered dozens of villagers.
They couldn't kill it with regular bullets, but when they
used special blessed bullets, it also killed the magic.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
User WHOA Okay, obviously we know about the Annabelle doll.
That's probably the most famous artifact in this museum, and
the museum, to my understanding, is basically artifacts they've collected
from their investigations. Sure or falls onnes.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
No no half and half. Other things were things that
were put in there for educational purposes. I worked with
the Peace Corps in Africa, and when I came back,
I had fetish dolls and touring daggers and all sorts
of stuff to give my grandfather. It's now sitting in
the museum, not attached to any particular case, but because
they were good for teaching people.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I still can't get out of my head. As a kid,
you were locked in there, I would have and I
think most people would have just freaked out.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I was afraid of the dark until I was sixteen
because of it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah wow, all right, let's back to the animel doll.
Is it in fact locked in a glass case inside
the museum, the famous annibl doll?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, at that point it didn't. It wasn't in the
museum at all, and probably up until nineteen seventy four,
it wasn't contained, it wasn't bound. My grandparents were always learning.
That's something people don't understand about them. When you're watching
those old videos and reading their old books, you're only
getting a snapshot in time. You're not seeing where they
progressed to. This is a field research, you know. It's
(05:01):
not a static thing. It's always growing. And they had
it sitting in a rocking chair for years.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
My god, all right, do me a favor, give me
a story, maybe two on the museum. What have you experienced?
What what comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Oh? Sure you remember that big seven foot tall demon statue.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I sure do.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, that's actually from one of my cases. Shut up, yeah,
now that was one of mine. I was in. It
was in Newtown, Connecticut. It was a pregnant woman and
her husband. She claimed he was coming under possession, so
my grandfather sent me and my partner out there. We
felt there was something to it, so we decided to
spend the night. At the middle of the night, the
woman starts screaming. My partner is like shaking me. She screaming.
(05:44):
She screamed, I know, get out of my way. I
pushed him out of the way. I ran across the room.
This guy was levitated over this pregnant woman. You saw this,
I listen. I've seen levitation three times in my life.
Shut up of human beings. I ran. I tackled him
out of midair. I was a lot younger. We hit
(06:05):
the bed on the other side of this woman rolled off.
I ended up on top of him on the floor.
My partner came up behind me, throwing holy water and screaming,
and by the power Jesus Christ, like a man did
be gone and we were able to get him out
of it. Now this place was right next door to
a funeral long one morning we were leaving the house
and there were four men in a car waiting for us.
(06:26):
Now I'd grown up in Newtown, Connecticut, so I knew
the roads we were being chased. I went booking through
these back roads and we escaped them. But a while later,
I can't tell you how long, I don't remember. Maybe
it was a few weeks, a month, whatever, there was
a hunter way in back in the woods from the house.
He came across that statue in front of a big
(06:47):
stone that had wax and it looked like maybe some blood.
It had been used as some kind of makeshift alter.
And the theory we've come up with is those men
were Satanists who were trying to use any kind of
Necroman energy that was in the funeral home, and somehow
there was a spillover to this man in the other house.
He was being affected by it because he was too sensitive.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Okay, those kind of stories just blow my mind, just bomb.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, that was a hell of a thing. It really was.
The police came, they saw the statue and they turned
it over to my grandfather.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Now, the statue, when you put something like that in
the museum, does it still have a power to it
or is it just contained to the museum, or how
do you stop it from doing that? Again?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You're supposed to bind these things. Now. Whether or not
that's still being done, I'm not sure, but you're supposed
to put rituals around it to bind the energies, to
keep it so it's in the object itself. My grandfather
always said, do not touch anything, do not challenge anything,
and everything's fine. If you do touch anything, tell him
(07:47):
immediately so he can spiritually cleanse you. It was something
we took very, very seriously.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Is there anything you are still afraid of to this
day in the museum?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
No, I'm like a snake handler, I know, to be
respect I'm more afraid for the public than I am
of my own personal safety. Plus I don't go in there,
you know. I'm South America for goodness sake.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I wonder if, like the people in the neighborhood, you know,
kids are curious. Oh yeah, dude, I'm sure they knock
on the door and try to do they get a
lot of listen.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I lived with my grandmother the last year and a
half of her life, and I remember one night after
one of the Annabel movies came out, probably in twenty eighteen.
Two kids had taken an uber from New Jersey from
directly from the movie to the house at night and
they were clamoring all over the house trying to get
in to see Annabel.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I assume you guys call the police, and oh no.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
We don't have to the police are always watching that house.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
All right, Well let's segue, you know, nice segue there, Chris,
into the Conjuring series. We were talking off you know,
off air. I guess you could say you love the series.
You know, but people, we hope are sophisticated enough to
know that it's not a documentary. There's a that's crazy
Hollywood license they've taken to make it dramatic, and they've
done a great job of it. It's phenomenal, but it's
(09:05):
not exactly a doc like you said, So your thoughts
on the series.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, they're great. You know. I love Vera and I
love Patrick. They're amazing as actors. They're just fantastic. Vera
in particular, she and my grandmother loved each other, and
Vera I respect because she respected my grandmother and wanted
to do a good job for her. She's a very earthly,
you know, spiritual person and my grandmother responded well to that.
(09:30):
But yeah, the movies are fantasies. They're look, my grandparents
loved each other very very much. They were my heroes,
but they weren't superheroes. My grandmother did have abilities, and
very amazing abilities. I blew my mind when I would
watch her sometimes. But even she said, the best psychic
in the world is only rite sixty percent of the time.
(09:51):
So I always caution people, don't bet your life on
a psychic, you know, don't change your life without evidence.
Be careful. The movies, well, let's go with annabel first,
the annabel movies. Annabelle's a real thing, and it is deadly,
but it isn't what people think it is. And those
movies are not based on any reality whatsoever at all.
(10:11):
And the Nun doesn't exist. That's a James One creation.
But Frenchie did the character Frenchie in the Nun. That's
Maurice Theil And that's another one of my cases, which.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
I'm going to bring that up later for sure. Sure, Hey,
just to stay with the Conjuring series that well, the
latest one, The Conjuring Last writes the Smirl Family Haunting,
which is what it's based on. You. You were the
first investigator to go into the house before your grandparents.
You gathered info and basically to my understanding, presented it
to your grandparents. So this is your case, you know,
in a way. What can you tell me about you know,
(10:43):
when you first entered the house, what what caught your eye?
What made what made you believe them?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Well, it's not fair to say it was my case.
I was just the first one in there.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
You know, my grandparents used a lot of investigators. I
just happened to be the ones they were using then.
And I went in with a kid from college who
had no idea what we were going to be facing. Boy,
and we went in simply with a cassette recorder. First
thing we did is try to capture anything we could,
and I caught pig noises in the bedroom. Yeah like that,
(11:13):
and sorry to your sound engineer, but we would hear
tappings and other noises coming from the basement. And then
I was in the master bedroom and I was just
praying and the bedroom door slam shut. So I started
praying to Padre Peel because he's somebody that my family
(11:35):
thinks of as our patron scene and the whole room
smelled like roses. I was like, all right, we're in good,
good hands here. Everything's fine. But one night I was
walking up the stairs, and this is something people have
a hard time believing. And I don't blame anybody who
hasn't lived through this, and I'm not trying to convince
anybody of my life experience. I'm just saying it happened.
(11:56):
I was walking up the stairs. Missus s Merle was
at the top of the stairs with poor Doug, my
friend from college, and all of a sudden, I get
woozy and I'm like rocking and I'm floating over the stairs.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
What gun?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, and they reached out and grabbed me immediately and
pulled me right in. I couldn't tell you how long
I was in the air, but it turns out, and
I didn't know this until I was just doing some
research myself. Mister and Missus Smirle were also levitated from
their beds at a point, and one of their daughters
was thrown down the stairs. Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
So yeah, you get this kind of info, and clearly
it's time to bring in the big guns when you
see and feel and experience something like that. So what
do you do with this info?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Immediately called my grandfather and told him what was going on,
and he had me go in for a couple more
weekends and gather more information. But that was the bulk
of what I got over that time. And although there
was one weird thing, Missus Smirle told me that just
like within weeks of my being there, they had discovered
(12:58):
partially digested twin that she had absorbed in the womb
that had become this fibrous mass in her belly and
they had to remove it. Now, that's not unusual really
to absorb a fetus, but to have that kind of
a hairy mass in your belly, that's pretty unusual.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
So how do you think that played into the case.
Is there a tie there?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
You know, here's the thing about the paranormal. If you
try to always say you understand everything and you know
the answers, you're not. You don't, and you have to
accept that there are going to be times you don't
know what you're dealing with. I was only twenty one
years old. I didn't even know the questions to ask
back then. I had no idea. If I could, that
(13:41):
would be one of the cases I would love to
go back and reinvestigate properly. Having said that, once a
case is finished, I don't believe in going back. I
think these people who go into the conjuring house and elsewhere,
they're opening doors that have been closed. They're specifically going
in there to try to get something to manifest. I
think that it's incredibly dangerous because my grandmother taught me
(14:03):
like attracts, Like the energy you put out is what
you will attract, and unfortunately the paranormal can attract a
lot of broken people. You don't want that energy in
those places.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Once you brought this info back to your grandparents, then
they did what they did. You know, were you part
of that investigation as well? Were you there watching what
was going on with U smirls? Yes?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
No. Once my grandparents got involved, I was done. I
saw the publicity, I saw how crazy it all got,
and I have to admit it was something that made
me very uncomfortable. But I also understood they were using
publicity kind of like as leverage against the church to
make them work. We had run into so many problems
dealing with the church, the Catholic Church in particular, because
(14:47):
even though the Pope may say this is real and
we need to work with people and help them, local
bishops can be very very careful and more like politicians
about it. And sometimes you just have to guilt them
to getting help. And that's why my grandparents did it
that way. Not every time, but when they had to.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's a shame because that's the whole point of the
church as far as I see it, to help someone.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Right, it should be yeah, but that's not been my experience.
We had a case where an exorcist who called himself
father anonymous. O, no, are you father A? We had
to call him father A. He said to me point blank,
if the public finds out about this case, I will
walk away. The church is more important than any family.
(15:30):
I was like, boy, you don't seem to understand the teachings.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Of Christ, and you think it'd be the exact opposite exact.
You mentioned the word exorcist and we were talking off
camera a moment ago. Once again and this has sort
of taking a left turn, but you met the real
exorcist from well, the movie The Exorcist was based on
a true story. You met the real exorcist that that
was based on, correct?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I met one of three There were three of exorcists,
and I happened to meet one when I was fourteen
years old.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
What was that experience like?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Oh, he came up to us. I was on a
tour with my grandparents, lecture tour and he came up
at the end of it and just introduced himself. The most,
the sweetest, most humble man imaginable, And it taught me
to approach this with humility. This isn't about me. It's
not about us at all. You know, it's God, And
(16:17):
if anything goes right, you can thank God. If anything
goes wrong, you can blame me.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Wow, we'll get to see some more of the terrifying
cases in a few seconds. But you mentioned prior to this,
some paranormal cases aren't scary, you know, some have Like
I think you said, you had spirits of family members
visit you. I think you said. I know this is
probably a sensitive story, and I wouldn't bring it up
if you hadn't brought it up to me, But your
fiance who passed away, give me whatever stories you care
to share. I would love to hear some of those.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Oh. The truth is, but more often than not, your
fear is caused by not understanding what you're dealing with.
You're dealing with the unknown, and you immediately are afraid.
And I understand that, but it's usually just somebody trying
to get your attention. They're taking your keys, they're jiggling
the doorknobs. I had a case recently here in Paraguay
where the woman contacted me because she was sure she
(17:05):
had demons in her house. They were rattling her doors
and opening the doors and knocking, and I went in
and I worked in the house twice, and it turned
out it was her father and he was warning her
that her ex boyfriend was dangerous. It turned out he
certainly was very dangerous. He had threatened to kill me
and this woman's mother if she didn't pay him money. Wow. Yeah,
(17:29):
it just goes to show that love continues even after
you die. Diana my fiance when my son was eight
years old. Diana and I had fallen in love. She
had three kids, who bought a house together. We were
ready to move in and the Sunday before Thanksgiving she
collapsed and it was discovered she had non Hodgkinson m foma,
(17:50):
and cancer can be really hard on a relationship. I
wanted to take care of her, she wanted to be
with her mother. It caused stress, so at the end
of the last two weeks of her life, we didn't
talk too much. I was actually writing her a letter
saying cancer is not going to kill you, don't let
it kill our love. The moment she died, oh my god.
She died within two hours of my mother's birthday. The
(18:13):
weird coincidence is her father died on my birthday and
she was born or my son was born on her birthday. Wow,
I know, really weird. But she came to me the
night before the funeral. My grandmother and my mother and
my son were in the master bedroom. I was in
my son's room. I was still awake. She came to me,
(18:33):
and I'm trying to tell her how much I love her,
how much I miss her, and she's saying, sh it's okay,
it's okay, don't worry about it. It's all fine. But
I wouldn't have stopped. I'm crying, and I could hear
my mother in the hallway and I call out to
her and she thinks I'm talking in my sleep, so
she doesn't come in. I wanted her to see this.
But about two weeks later, I was in the master
bedroom by myself. No one was hong pitch black, couldn't
(18:56):
see a thing, and I hear footsteps coming down the hallway.
They woke me up heavy footsteps. My fiance was a
heavy woman. And I opened my eyes and there was
a mirror on the back of the bedroom door, and
she was propped up on one elbow, looking down at
me from behind me, with a smile on her face.
And I was like, oh, no, I'm not going to
(19:18):
watch you leave again. And I know it doesn't make sense.
I closed my eyes. I didn't want to see her
leave again. And she got right in front of me
and she said, very clearly, I love you, and she
physically kissed me on the lips physically, And that was
the very last time she ever visited. It was unfinished business.
(19:39):
She needed me to know because we weren't talking because
of the stress of her dying. She needed me to
know how she felt.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That's about a specialize, a gainst right there.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh it doesn't get better. I mean, my grandmother has visited,
but that's not even as good as Diana.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
If I may ask, when you see something what her specifically?
Does she look like me or you alive? You know?
Like so like if you didn't know she had passed
and you saw what she looked like, you would think
she was perfectly fine, right or not?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Well that clear. Here's the thing that was made it unusual.
In this particular case. I shouldn't have been able to
see anything in the mirror because it was too dark,
but I did.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Huh, so she had Yeah, she had a glow to her.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I guess, right, not that I could say, but see her,
so I suppose.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
But here's another weird thing that happened yesterday. Now this
doesn't happen very often, so this is really weird. I
have an uncle in Adelaide, in Australia, and he has
this wonderful dog. And so I see his dog walk
by him behind him while we're talking. I said, oh,
there's Katie, he says terencey. He says, no, No, Katie's
over there in the chair, curled up. I said, I
just saw your dog walk by. That said, wait a minute,
(20:48):
did you ever have a large dog with a shaggy
black back? Yep? She It was the dog that actually
has come back to him. It was a German shepherd.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Wow. Okay, this gift you have a gift or maybe
considered a curse at times. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I don't know. It's a gift. It's from my grandmother
and God.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
That was my next question, like, how do you develop
something like this or do you just get it passed down?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
It is genetic, not always, but I believe everybody has
the ability. We have neuroplasticity when we're younger and we
develop pathways. But when you're a child, they're very open
and impliable, and people can be much more open to
the paranormal and to these things that are out there.
It's just as we get older, we develop those pathways
(21:32):
and normally in very normal ways, so we don't we're
not open to the unusual. You can train yourself, just
like people with traumatic brain injury can rewire the brains.
You can train yourself to be open to the paranormal,
but it takes effort and it takes practice, repetitive practice
to make that work. I have noticed that it's mostly
women who are psychic, and the majority of men who
(21:55):
are psychic are gay, which is odd. But my theory
is that the reason they are is perhaps it's like
an adaptation that they need to be more sensitive to
what's around them, given that it can be dangerous to
be gay in culture, in our cultures, and also because
they're allowed to be more feeling culturally more sensitive, whereas
(22:17):
most of us heterosexual men are more you know, very
straight and narrow and not open to those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
You've heard a couple of sweet stories, obviously, but you know,
make no mistake, this is a dangerous career that you have.
What do people need to know before they would pursue
something like this? I saw you mentioned that as well.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Oh, they need to know an awful lot. And I've
said this many times. Don't think that when you watch
something on television or TikTok or YouTube or whatever, that
you're really learning how to do this. That's like watching
Gray's Anatomy and then picking up a scalpel. It's not
the same. You should go into this setting spiritual boundaries
always out loud. I'm here to help, I'm not. I
(22:58):
don't want you following me when I leave, and then
when you leave you say you're no longer allowed to
follow me. You should also be using some form of faith.
Whatever your faith is doesn't really matter. That's one thing
I've learned in all of my travels. Whatever God is,
and I don't profess to know, whatever that higher power is,
will answer prayers for everybody. It's all about focusing your
(23:19):
intention and your belief through some form of ritual to
protect yourself. Do that. Go in there with humility, go
in there with the intention of helping both the living
and the dead. And you're almost there. You're getting there.
But don't be afraid. Don't ever exploit anybody that's in
the home. Don't look. I do everything I do for
(23:40):
free and confidentially. I help families in crisis. My job
is not to expose them to the public, and I
don't want anybody else to do that. That's why you
don't see me on TikTok with a two second video
of a coffee cup flying crossroom. That's not us. Now,
we're here to help.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
If someone were to jump into this career and do
exactly the opposite of what you suggested, what's the worst
case scenario and what have you seen as far as
people taken advantage of this, even.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
When you know what you're doing, even when you're good
at it. Like Ed Warren in the Exorcism of Maurice's Theils,
I was the guy standing between Bishop McKenna and Maurice.
My grandfather and grandmother weren't actively participating at all in
the exorcism. They were off to the side and my
grandfather was having a heart attack during the exorcism.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, and my grandmother couldn't see it. Another reason I
don't trust psychics. My grandmother was too close to him.
When your emotions are involved, or when you already know something,
you can't trust your psychic abilities. I can't go into
a place knowing something and expect or trust myself. I
have to go in completely cold. But another time, I mean, look,
I've had the gas turn on my stove three nights
(24:50):
in a row without the flame because I was about
on a bad case. I've had the brakes go out
in the car moments after I had just say, helped
the fan. These are the kinds of things you will
deal with. I had a man, one of my colleagues.
I was sending him on a very bad case out
in the DC area, and the night before this guy
(25:11):
was only like forty two forty three years old. The
night before going on this really bad case, he had
a massive stroke. So did all of this happen because
of negative energies. I don't know that for sure, but
it's certainly something to think about. I mean, I remember,
for I've never had my TV turn on just for
no reason. But I scheduled an extorcism in Tennessee for
(25:33):
a woman and that night, at two o'clock in the morning,
my TV and my computer blared on in the middle
of the night. My wife is like, oh, let's go see.
It's like, no, not, just ignore it. And I was like, enough,
turn off now? And it did.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
You mentioned the Maurice Theeal case. Kind of give me
the details of that case. I wanted to bring that up,
but I don't know all the specifics of it.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh, there's an entire book on that one. The poor man,
I mean, in a nutshell. He was a horribly abused,
illiterate French Canadian farmer. His father was a monster. His
father called him one day said Maurice, I just want
you to know I love you, first time he ever
said it. Then, while Maurice was listening on the phone,
he walked in the next room, picked up a gun,
(26:12):
murdered Maurice's mother, and then killed himself. What Yeah, Well
it gets a lot worse. All of a sudden, Maurice
starts having things like words carved in French on his back,
saying the door is open. No one else in the
family spoke French and he couldn't write it, so he
had to translate whatever was on his back. I watched
(26:33):
him one after well after some of these things were
going on, we got a phone call. We went in there, me,
my partner, Ray Jefferson, and my grandparents. After the initial interview,
my grandfather thought, it's the father. The father is attacking you.
He's a monster. Let's go to the grave and you
forgive your father, tell him you love him, and you
just wanted to be at peace. As we're standing there,
(26:53):
Maurice is crying talking to his dad. I was maybe
nine or ten feet away from him. We all watched
him get punched underneath the chin so hard it lifted
him off his feet and threw him back about ten
feet flat on his back. And that's when my grandfather decided,
all right, Ray Chris, we want you to stay here
for a while. I watched him come under possession and
(27:14):
right in front of me he would bleed from the eyes.
His eyes would look like a snake. And then we
were in the greenhouse planting seedlings. It was early spring.
He was cold. I said, walk on over to the
wood fire and we'll keep working. Ray said, Chris, look
at his eyes. He was under possession. His eyes looked
like a snake and he was crying tears of blood.
(27:34):
I had Maurice or I had Ray take Nancy, his wife,
up to the house, and I confronted Maurice or whatever
was there and eventually got him out of it. But
afterward he said his bag was bothering him. And I
lifted up his shirt and his T shirt had three
bloody crosses in it. Now, what's interesting is when I
lifted up the T shirt, there was blood on his back,
(27:56):
but there were no cuts. So I, yeah, weird. So
I said to him, I need this shirt. I was
at the University of Kennecticut at the time. I said
I need this shirt. I want to go have it
tested and see what this is? Is a pig blood?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Kum blood? What is this? So we went back up
to the house and I watched him take off both shirts.
He hands me the white T shirt and there's no
blood on it.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
It's gone, Okay, that's bizarre.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I don't know. I don't but we did the exorcism,
and unfortunately we didn't understand yet that there were underlying
issues that made him vulnerable to the paranormal that made
these things manifest the way they did. It's a life
lesson I've taken and it's changed everything I do. But
two years later, when I was in the Peace Corps
(28:39):
in Molly in West Africa, his wife Nancy called my
grandparents and said, he's coming under possession again. I'm not
going through this again. I'm getting a court order against him.
He's out well. She was coming home from work one night,
getting out of the car. He was waiting for her.
He had a shotgun. He blew her arm off, dragged
her bleeding in to the kitchen, satder at the kitchen table,
(29:03):
and she said, this is it. I'm going to die,
just like Maurice's mother. And at the last moment he
put the shotgun under his own head and blew his
head off.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, so yes, it can be. It's only the first
first of two deaths that I can attribute to possession. Possession,
by the way, is not common. I've had over ten
thousand cases, most of which are very nothing. You know,
a few phone calls, some counseling and everything's fine. But
I've only had about twelve possession cases in forty four years.
(29:36):
People who tell you that they do three hundred and
fifty exorcisms a year, they're not doing that. They're maybe
doing something called a deliverance, which is, oh, you have
a porn addiction, We're going to free you from that.
That's not the.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Same what that is mind blowing, terrifying, sad, every Oh
my god. Yeah, I think your first case was your
most over the top poltergeist case you've ever been. Would
you mind kind of walking me through that?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Sure? Yeah? That one. Look, I know this is going
to sound crazy, and I have never ever experienced anything
like this. Again, this was over the top, one hundred
miles a minute case. I get called. I'm sixteen years old,
it's nineteen eighty one, and my grandfather decides I'm going
on my first case. I never even knew I was
going on a case. It wasn't on my bucket list.
(30:25):
I was afraid of the dark still, you know. But
we went up to Lee, Massachusetts with a man named
Paul Barts, who was an assistant of my grandfather's, and
the husband and wife were sitting outside of this tracked home,
afraid to go in by themselves. Now there had already
been poltergeist phenomena. There had been appliances flying across the room,
and tables and all sorts of stuff, and the woman
(30:47):
had even been in the master bedroom. It started. Let
me back up a little bit. It had been started
because they had inherited the home from the man's uncle
when he died, and the first night they moved in,
a little apparition of a little boy appeared in the
bedroom door and said, where do all the lonely people go?
The woman immediately called her priest and had a house cleansing,
(31:09):
and afterward the child never came back, but this hulking,
black shape manifested that night. The husband had gone to
work at the mill that night. He was on rotating shifts,
and this thing came in, picked up her rosary beads
off the bedpost and twirled them as if to say,
you think this is going to stop me? She ran
(31:30):
out of there. She was trying to get to her first.
She had two daughters across the hall in two different bedrooms.
She tried to open the bedroom door, which didn't have
a lock on it, and it wouldn't open. The attic
pulled downstairs, came down on her head and knocked her
senseless once she was able to gather herself together, she
got the girls out and that was the last time
they were in there. When we entered, the whole house
(31:52):
was shaking from poundings in the wall in repetitions of
three and my grandfather said, that's a sure sign of
the demonic. I have my own opinions on these things.
I mean, my grandfather and grandmother were the best mentors
in the world, but again it's field of research. Things
change over time as we adapt. My grandparents changed all
(32:12):
the time. But at that point, that's where we were
with our understanding, and downstairs was just a couch and
a recliner. Most of the furniture was gone because of
things flying in the kitchen. There were a couple of things,
and that's it. As we're going up the stairs, I
can hear growling and cloying in the walls, and the
walls are practically shaking. We get to the top of
the stairs, I look into the bathroom to my left
(32:36):
and there's this giant crucifix on the wall and it's
upside down, straight out on lightwood, and the pull downstairs
to the attic were pulled down, and my grandfather says, Chris,
I want you to sit in the master bedroom in
the dark and let us know what happens. We're going
to go downstairs. We're gonna light Holy Church incense, and
we're gonna stir this thing up so it reveals itself.
(32:57):
I was like, you don't know what we're dealing with.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
So they put the incense in a cooking pot and
they're smudged downstairs and they're trying to get up the
stairs and it keeps going out And for an hour,
I'm listening to this growling inclinging right behind my head
in the wall, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Like, grat I hear this. I'm afraid of the dark.
I don't want to be in that. But after an
hour it was over. Everything quieted down and I went downstairs.
Now we were on WTICAM radio ten sixty with Brian
Dowell out of Hartford, Connecticut overnight. It was a call
in radio show and we had phones all hooked up
(33:34):
ready to go. At three o'clock in the morning, the
woman and my grandfather are sitting on the couch. I'm
in the recliner across from them. Paul Bart's and the
husband are upstairs on a princess phone. In one of
the girl's rooms, and it's a bitch black. Three o'clock
in the morning, two hulking black shapes come down the stairs.
We have a picture of one of these things in
the bedroom. I can share it with you. It came
(33:55):
down the stairs and just stood there on the landing,
and we could see it even in the dark. Three fifteen,
all hell broke loose. The woman screamed, her face was
on fire. My grandfather put the flashlight on her face,
and there were three claw marks that appeared right on
the left side of her cheek, and blood dripping down
her chest. Then the pot with the church incense in
it flew around the corner. I'm on the phone quietly
(34:18):
with a crucifix on the other the saying crucifix was
upstairs in my other hand, and I'm quietly saying, by
the power of Jesus Christ, that command keep me gone.
By the power I mean, that's what my grandfather told
me to do. And this pot flies around the corner
and straight up my head just missed me hit the
window behind me. The shade flew up, the pot crumpled,
and the window didn't break. The woman starts screaming, she
(34:40):
wants out of the house. I'm thinking, great idea, let
me help you. Yeah, I'm there. I run to the
front door, and we'd been in and out of that door,
and it wouldn't open, and the lights are going on
and off around me. The recliner i'd just been in
now tumbles across the room at me, and then the
door opens by itself, and she and I run out,
and I turned back and there's my grandfather sitting with
(35:04):
the lights going on and off. He's just on the
phone telling everybody what's going on, comments could be. I
was like, that is the bravest person I've ever seen
in my entire life, honestly, wow. And I will be
grateful to him till the day I die. Because the
next night I went home and for the first time
in my childhood, I went to bed without the light on.
(35:26):
I learned if you face your fears, if you can
immerse yourself in them, you can overcome them and you
can free yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I could talk to you for hours, and I plan to.
You can say no, but I want to do about
one hundred podcasts with you, Chris, Jesus, these are some
amazing stories.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Apply You're a great guy.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh my god, but after all you've seen, does anything
keep you up at night? I mean, what could scare you?
After that?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
You're gonna hear to laugh fame That can be pretty scary. Yeah.
I was in three of my grandparents' books and I
asked them to take my name out of it after
the first edition. I didn't like it. I'm only coming
forward now because I can't use them as my buffer.
I have to step forward. I have a responsibility to
(36:12):
the public and I have to help where I can,
and I can't do that if people don't know where
to find me.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
What are you working on now? Do you have a
case that's underway at the moment?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Oh, We have a number of them. As a matter
of fact, we've just worked on one in England, like
twenty minutes before I was talking to you. I don't
have the details on that right now. I have to
get them from my team, so I'll be doing that
as soon as I'm off with you. I'm also working well,
we've got a lot of them, but we're working with
another woman in trying to marry Oh in California, and
(36:46):
she's having a lot of manifestations of dark looking entities.
Here's the thing I want to explain to people the
paranormal will manifest according to your beliefs. When we're faced
with the un we will put a face on it.
We would rather believe in the devil than deal with
the unknown, because the devil comes with rules that we
(37:07):
can understand, and that unknown doesn't. That's just too terrifying
for us. I have seen this in everywhere I go
around the world. We control the manifestation. If it's not
a human spirit, I mean, then we're dealing with something
that we are capable of making taking form the way
we fear it to be. There are cryptids reported by
(37:28):
the thousands all over the world, all sorts, thousands of
different types. In Perule alone, there's over a thousand different
types of cryptids in two encyclopedias. Do you believe that
there are really a thousand different kinds of magical creatures
we haven't discovered in just one little country. No, But
when we're faced with the unknown, we give it a face.
So yes, I'm always working on something. I just helped
(37:50):
the woman today who's dealing with out of control psychic abilities,
So I was helping her learn how to protect herself,
how to develop them properly. How to ground herself. This
is something my grandmother did helping people with their gifts
because often, you know, they suffer from anxiety, they get
overwhelmed by different energies. I actually started an online support
(38:13):
group on Facebook that anybody who is gifted is welcome
to join for free. We've got over almost a thousand
members on there around the world. It's a very supportive community,
but it is only to help them. It's not about oh,
let's do a reading, or here's a dark thing. What
do you think this is? What are you picking up?
None of that crap. We don't want to overwhelm them.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Do you find that a lot of them? And this
is a question I had for you as well, and
the movie for example, the sixth sense comes to mind.
You wake up and they're staring at you. Do you
have that? Do they have that? Happen often a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Of my people do. I'm lucky. I used to be
a lot more open, and I'm told constantly that I've
got amazing walls up. My grandmother was very good at
that with me. I used to read ours and things
like that. But it turns out that the curse, the
curse of Cassandra, is very real people do not like
you to tell the truth. They don't want you to
(39:07):
see the truth. They want you to say beautiful things
about them. That's not me. I don't. I don't lie,
so I can't. I've refused to read or as I
will not. I haven't done it in thirty five years.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Wow, well, Chris, at some point I would love to
join you for something you pick. I don't know what
it is. I want to make sure it's obviously something
you think is appropriate. But uh, I want to join
you for something. I want to have you back on
as a guest. I want to cover more cases that
you are just a fascinating guy, and I just I
think it's such a pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
It's a pleasure to meet you. I've been looking forward
to this really well.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Same, I guess. Final question, if people want to reach
out to you they're going through something, is the best
way Instagram or how do you suggest they reach out
to you? And what information would they need would you
need to get from them to say all right, you've
got you've got a problem.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Right. Well, fifty half of my job, half of the
job of everybody in the Warren Legacy Foundation is fa
fguring out what we're dealing with. The paranormal is messy.
It isn't cut and dry, and just because we're dealing
with drug abuse or mental illness, that doesn't rule out
the paranormal. That's the vehicle for the manifestation that we
have to deal with. I suggest you go to the
(40:15):
Warren Legacy Foundation. It's called Warren Legacy Foundation dot com.
There's a contact us link there. Fill out our Google form.
It's very detailed. We ask a lot of information. It
gives us a sense of what you're dealing with. So
then we can figure out the next step and we'll
set up an appointment with you. We'll ask you for
more information again, and we'll then develop a service plan
(40:37):
on how best to help you. If you need to
just reach out to me, if you have a question
or what have you and reach out to me. Chris
McKinnell on Facebook, Warren Files on Instagram, and TikTok. That's it.
I mean, our services are free and confidential. The only
thing I charge for is presentations and consultations that are
outside of people in crisis. Only because I'm spending about
(41:00):
sixteen hours a day helping people, I don't have the
bandwidth to just sit and chat unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Right, well fair enough, I mean, my god, life is expensive,
you know. So yeah, Chris, thank you so much. I
really appreciate your time. To be continued.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Thank you,
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