The Isle of Naath

Episode Transcript
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(00:48):
Obscure can mean a lot of thingsbut if you're a regular listener
or of a geeky nerdy disposition,or both to you, it probably
rarely means uninteresting. It's rarely a turn-off often.
It's the opposite. And that's what we have for you
today. The Isle of nathe or Nath,
however, you want to say it is. Yeah, is unique and unlike

(01:13):
anything we've seen in the KnownWorld, the people are extreme
pacifists. In a world of violence that is
indeed unusual. And while generalizing over much
about an entire ethnicity is a path riddled with errors.
There's a reason to believe. It might actually be almost
true. In this case, the features of

(01:33):
Nath Nath are just so unusual and extreme that one must
discard much of what we expect from humanity and they might
have an origin that sets them apart from other humans.
If not actual blood lines from On humans were presented with a
race that both tests, the notionthat know people are a monolith

(01:53):
while, ultimately still proving it.
I think, thus, in some ways we might look at this as a bit
unnatural with regards to individuality in our perception
of basic Humanity, but the biggest singular reason for
this, however, might be Supernatural.
So that quickly dispenses with any concerns regarding what is,
or what is it natural or needs to be.

(02:15):
And nobody suspects the butterfly.
Well today, we'll do our part toput an end to this notion.
We do suspect the butterfly, this unjustified butterfly
exceptionalism ends. Now I say, but notice to, I said
biggest singular Reason Not onlysingular reason there are others
will delve into all that and more on this episode of history

(02:38):
of Westeros podcast. So I gotta say I feel like I'm
missing some kind of reference. What's with expecting a
butterfly? His reference.
There's also a very important Song of Ice and Fire Creator who
goes by nobody suspects the butterfly.
We cited her we've cited, nobodysmokes, the butterfly many times
I've been on panels with butterfly, mine set at I said,

(03:00):
fire Khan and I'm friends with her but mainly she's an amazing
resource and a Simpsons reference.
That's right. So why don't we explain that
reference entirely since we've started off with that?
I was going to do that later. Why not now sure the It's itself
is to round Springfield, episode, 125 from season six of
The Simpsons. That's 125 of, 750 mind you.

(03:24):
That is the current total of Simpsons episodes as of the
recording of this episode. We've been doing our show for a
long time. We've only got we don't even
have half that many tell you onepoint, I'd seen a hundred
percent of The Simpsons which was 700 and now I'm about 50
behind. Yeah, they just keep going, Bart

(03:45):
gets sick in that episode, whichis on topic for the health of
this episode. There's even a reference to a
brand of crusty cereal that has flesh-eating bacteria in.
And this is the episode where bleeding gums Murphy dies.
So all sorts of sicknesses that fit in with the butterfly.
That we'll discuss today. So yeah, shout out to her and to
The Simpsons and with that, let's kick it off Shawn.

(04:07):
You got anything special to drink today.
Anything like red or green or butterfly related.
It looks kind of murky. I use the naked mango drink
again with the Coconuts Berry Red Bull and the black raspberry
Sparkling Ice. And so like the kind of purply

(04:29):
and the orange and mixed together.
You can only see the layers because the mango the neck has.
He's been tricking bottom. Yeah it's darker at the top for
sure. It's delicious.
I'll tell ya. I doubt it the coconut Berry Red
Bull by itself tastes like medicine, not so good, but mix
it with some other stuff. Well, hello and welcome,
everybody. Welcome to another episode
history of Westeros podcast. Things a little bit out of order

(04:52):
in our start today but that's okay.
We take things as they come, we maneuver and do what needs to be
done to get our episodes flowinginto Their proper spot.
How do you all say it? You say nay Thorn Authority just
I just kind of find myself bouncing back and forth like I
do with a lot of these. I don't really settle on one.
I kind of Go down the middle. I think we know how I said?

(05:14):
Nah. No, I think I said nothing and
sometimes nathe but I think I'vestarted to lean towards Notch
because I want to use not pun. Yeah, not allows more puns.
That is nothing like the Celtic our debate but nothing like this
exactly like that. Yeah.

(05:39):
Yeah. I say that jokingly.
So this is also NAFA livestream.This is a pre-recorded episode.
We don't do that so often these days.
But every once in a while we do because of scheduling and things
happening, during our normal recording time, there are three
of us, so sometimes we can all be together on a Sunday.

(06:00):
Usually, we can't. So anyway, not too different,
especially if you're catching this afterwards.
I usually read through the chat after episodes, which I
appreciated the comments and insights that I find in there.
So we might not have that for this episode but I still read
the comments to so comments away.
There still will be a live chat though.
People can still watch, it'll bereal Premier so if you are

(06:22):
chatting know that Sean will go back and read your check.
Bonus bonus. Yeah, so we picked this one out
because of the hiccup in our schedule, so this was not voted
on by patrons. Tweek is the vegetation episode,
which is Ned's childhood. And if is episode ends, and you
want to stay immersed. Well, we've got you covered with

(06:43):
suggestions for topics related to this one.
And we'll go through those at the end as well.
At the end of the episode will be the answer to this.
Trivia question, the true name of the goddess of the unsullied
is hidden to all but those who have sacrificed their manhood to
the Flames, they call her to others.
The lady of Spears or one of twoother nicknames, what?

(07:05):
Are those other nicknames one orboth?
If you can name both good for you, This episode will feel a
lot like our Valerie Rita's for the world of Ice and Fire
episodes, it's by Nature. A smaller topic.
Quite obviously focused on Worldbuilding.
That gives us a little extra room for real-world comparisons.
A little more room for theories.Yeah.

(07:26):
If we were the kind of show to follow social media trends,
well, first of all, we wouldn't do an episode on such an obscure
topic but we'd build this episode.
Something like, you are not gonna believe the shocking
truth. And if you're watching, see
where my finger is pointing there it is.
I'm doing a little circle aroundit almost having a hard time

(07:48):
doing that because it's backwards.
Yes. But it's a red circle with an
arrow pointing at it. Yeah, here is the first mention
of the Isle of naath Kraznys hasHigh.
Valyrian was twisted and thickened, by the characteristic
growl of geese and flavor here. And there with words of slaver

(08:13):
are go Danny, understood him well enough, but she smiled and
looked blankly at the slave girl.
As if wondering what he might have said.
The good Master kraznys asks, are they not Magnificent the
girl spoke the common tongue? Well, for one who had never been
to Westeros no older than 10. She had the round flat face,

(08:36):
Dusky skin and golden eyes of Nathe peaceful people.
Her folk were called all agreed that they made the best slaves.
So we don't hear of naath or thepeaceful people until we get to
slavers Bay and sadly. There's a reason for that Beyond
Simple storytelling. Those storytelling is of course,
huge here. To for example, Danny and US

(08:58):
readers are seeing George. Turn up the dial on the evils of
slavery by giving us an Unambiguously good people, it
makes the evil of slavery. Even more evil because these are
such good people. We're told that they're the best
slaves because they're so peaceful.
That's heartbreaking, right? I mean it would be bad enough
anyway. But like I said, George does

(09:19):
like to turn it up to 11. This is a pretty good way to do
it. You know, as far as writing goes
yet even these folk are turned in not just slaves, like
missandei who retain a lot of who they are, but slaves
soldiers. Like her brothers who have been
through much more Extreme Conditioning, so it kind of
remains to be seen how the unsullied as a subplot will play

(09:40):
out in this case, in terms of them, you know, recovering some
of their Humanity or not. Because the slavers go all out
and making and taking that from them in order to make them
Killers. So missandei hasn't been turned
into a killer but her brothers have been and it remains to be
seen if their original peaceful nature versus this traumatic

(10:01):
training experience. This is just the situation they
find themselves and they're still in Marine.
It's not a place you can expect to survive by being a pacifist.
I think so. I think it's a pretty
interesting subplot to be following here.
And yeah the reason we don't seethe people from the eighth is
unless you see them as slaves. You're not likely to see them

(10:24):
because they don't, as far as we're told shoes to leave their
Homeland, right? You're not going to see someone
from Nathan Westeros just randomly So if you see a person
from Nate that's probably in bondage and that's that's not
great, but it does kind of make sense given the way it's set up
kind of a sad unfortunate truth.That might be the case for a lot

(10:44):
of people's of Westeros. There was a time in the real
world where it was a true for a lot of people's the planet
Earth. You know, like if you were to
see some and African person in America, they're probably a
slave, you know, for hundreds ofyears.
That was just the nature of the world's good point.
That's a good point. We'll talk about the actual
place. Its nickname is the Isle of

(11:06):
butterflies. Here's the intro paragraph, or
just part of the intro, paragraph to their section, in
the world of Ice and Fire, Northwest of South Oreos and the
summer sea lies, the mysterious island of naath known to the
Ancients as the Isle of butterflies.
So, it's been called that for a long time which makes sense in
our episode. On the Basilisk Isles, we
briefly pointed out. That math is almost close enough

(11:27):
to be considered one of them, but it isn't, at least not by
westerosi map standards. Let's not Get that all such
things are essentially arbitrary.
Some people other map makers around the world might consider
it. One of the Basilisk Isles is
very different in terms of the people and disposition of the
people. But in terms of geography, it's
closed in terms of some other features it's got some

(11:48):
similarities. So hmm, nor are apparently the
other small Islands. West of sutorius was a mother
like tiny islands that you can see on the map.
They don't have names. I was kind of wonder what's up
with those if they're also filled with nasty diseases or
Basilisk? Sir, something certainly if
they're basilisks, they should be part of the Basilisk Isles.
I mean, come on. It's there right there.
I mean, but who knows what they have on them.

(12:10):
And I wonder too, like, it really fills me with.
I just love seeing these little tiny Islands.
Whenever I see miniature Isles on a map, you know, especially a
fantasy map but also a real map.I wonder like what's their
what's on that? Like, I'm drawn to the most
obscure thing and I wonder like,is there any people?
There's a creatures on there. There's like species that have

(12:31):
never ever had human contact at all or trees that have never
heard this. What was that that reference?
I made several weeks ago, trees that are never heard the sound
of an axe. Let alone felt the taste of the
bite of one. I think we do.
Zis is future fan fiction in theworld.
That will not be happening. That will not be the last time.

(12:56):
I do that in this episode. I think about that sometimes to
some some little piece of natureon Bye man.
And it's kind of like intriguingor impressive or beautiful, but
there's no way to see it. Without it being touched by,
man, it's kind of a catch-22, you know.
Yeah, that's true. We need this.
What we need so we have drones for these days, right?

(13:16):
That's count as being touched. If you send some, if a Kevlar on
down there some children of the forest, yeah, and their vast
undersea tunnels, right? Be amazing.
If they have that, this is thereare other Regional similarities,
right? They only have a little All in
common with the summer Islanders, I mean skin tone is
may be similar but the summer Islanders have a large variety

(13:38):
of skin tones and we don't necessarily know what varieties
come 1/8 we haven't seen a lot of them and it's not super well
described because I mean you can't really do a study of their
people because you can't really live there.
It's hard to, they don't leave. So like what do you
opportunities for academic research?
Or very limited on this on this race?

(13:59):
They have very different eyes inthe summer Islanders which Kind
of also separates them ethnically or from bloodline.
Certainly disposition is very different from what I mean, is
the sum around, are just some ofthe most interested in World
exploration, which the not there, like among the least
interested in going anywhere other than their homes.
So, yeah. And of course, the butterflies

(14:20):
added, the disease that seems tocome from the butterflies, as
we'll explain later, which is extremely deadly.
One of the most deadly diseases,we've seen, except maybe in
comparison to some of the ones with Oreos is Is right next to
scenario. So that really fits in with the
idea that men the tropical ich region or subtropical region of
this planet is really freaking deadly.

(14:41):
Y'all feel like there's some nasty nature there, by the way,
not just deadly, but gruesome right.
It would be one thing if like, you get exposed to it and you
died of a fever, three days later, but it like your skin
comes off or something, right? It's so bad.
Yeah. The unfortunate proximity to

(15:03):
slavers write the Basilisk Islesare also right there and
elsewhere, but the Basilisk Isles are where a lot of the
worst slave raids come from mostly, just because of the
proximity. But also we have to wonder like
back in the day ancient times. It says that's been called the
Isle of butterfly since ancient times.
Well, well who which ancients called it that, which ancients

(15:27):
were aware of that when was butter invented, I did read
about that. Like, why are they called
butterflies in the real world and the people don't know.
Okay, there's the guesses. But yeah, it's one of them was
that they they're out in the field during butter seasoned or
one. Is it that one of the most
popular varieties was yellow andso they just have the same color

(15:47):
but those are the kind of those are not very solid can imagine
like a green grass field suddenly being covered by yellow
butterflies. It's like, it's been buttered
you know, Mmm butter grass. So I was also going to say in

(16:08):
conjunction with that like ancient times is kind of
relative to, you know, what to say to.
I mean, maybe you could assume it means, at least, I don't know
several hundred years, I don't know. 500 is enough to be
ancient, but especially in Martin's World.
It could be 700 or 7,000 or 17,000.
So, yeah, I'm pretty sure in thereal world, it means two

(16:30):
thousand years or more. Which generally means a diverse
BC that's gradually falling off.Every year we get a little
farther away from that but stillyeah like a thousand years ago
is not ancient. Some people use it that way but
historians and academics. Do not so properly if you're
trying to be technical. Don't talk, don't say ancient

(16:51):
about something only a thousand years old.
So it's shaped like a backwards question mark.
It only only imagine that the dot at the below.
The question mark has floated from under to inside the Little
Hook part which again is anotherlittle I wonder about that
little island in there. Then Athey don't take shit but
the do they take wrath to that? I mean, it's so close but even

(17:14):
that might be something they've never gone to because it's well
but we don't leave our Shores oreven how effective is it by the
tides? Is it possible to get across on
foot in a I'd you know, that's agreat call, it might be.
Yeah, who knows? Yeah, might have a Promontory.
It's really, really hard to say maybe there's yeah, who knows,
there's ways across what kind ofweird and awesome stuff would

(17:35):
happen there if there's maybe some slightly different, nathi,
who live a little bit apart fromthe others, maybe there's some
caves on there or some mountainsor something.
There's supposedly a hundred or more species of butterflies on
me. I love butterflies.
This Smithsonian Museum calls butterflies, one of the most
appealing. Teachers in nature in real life.

(17:56):
A hundred or more species. Butterflies is nothing.
There's 18,000 plus species of butterfly in the world.
Every continent has them except Antarctica, which is true for a
lot of species. Because if you do live on an
Arctica, they evolved from mothsabout 55 million years ago.
So it does make sense that on planet 0 State.
Also would have been around since before people, from by a

(18:18):
long shot. Fun fact, some butterfly species
embark on Degeneration Journeys like they'll a butterfly will
embark on a journey. It will make it part of the way.
They will breed and die and it'sOffspring will continue that
Journey. It could take up to six
generations, to get there. It's got to understand how they

(18:39):
know they remember. Is it ancestral memory?
Or do they just have the same obvious goal in mind?
My question is like what that original butterfly have gone to
the same spot or do they just continue?
Like that's my question. Well, it worked Usually, it's
not one butterfly, it's they migrate, you know, sick a whole,
I don't know calling or whatever.

(19:00):
And I believe that they're following some patterns and
that's, it's like a generation think of it is or whatever.
But it has to do with, like, theamount of daylight and the day
in a direction of the sun is facing and things like that.
And they see and they see much different spectrums.
Like they can see sunlight even when it's cloudy because they
could see like infrared and, and, or ultraviolet for violet.

(19:20):
Yeah, ultraviolet. Yeah, that's right.
And Yeah, it's like Generation ship from sci-fi Sci-Fi series,
like the expanse. There was that ship?
That's just going off to a new planet that they're not going to
get to in their lifetime but theship is built so that multiple
generation people can live on and eventually their ancestors
will make it and establish a newcolony.
And it's this is kind of like that but for the insect world so

(19:41):
that's pretty wild. You did some research on them,
too, huh? Shawn?
Yeah, yeah. A couple times just now I was I
want to say it was. You can choose my words.
Carefully when I would say butterflies because, you know,
there's names for different groupings of animals like a herd
of sheep or a flock of geese or whatever a group of butterfly is

(20:03):
apparently sometimes called a flutter or a kaleidoscope.
Not so cool. Cool.
And that was a new one. But I in different readings.
I found these different terms islike, well, which is it.
And so I was trying to research just in general where these
different kind of cute unusual, weird names, you get four groups
of animals come from and you know, like Wikipedia had like

(20:23):
this list but I still want to well where did Wikipedia get
this us? Where's it come from?
Apparently this English woman inthe 1400s wrote a book on
heraldry and hunting and apparently she was from a
wealthy family so she maybe would have had some insight and
she worked at a monastery and had whatever resources and
motivation. to consolidate all this information about how

(20:47):
Animals are referred to when they're hunted and also the
heraldry of the castles around like a weird hodgepodge of
information. She put out there.
Yeah, it's called The Book of st.
Albans, written by Giuliana burners, and I know she has
somewhat of a legacy, a lot of all women groups.

(21:07):
Hunting groups are called burners burners.
Yeah. He's another called ber in.
ER, but yeah. But by the way, large group of
caterpillars is called an army of caterpillars.
There's so many of those good times good names for groups.
I, that is one of my favorite things, I don't know.
My fate, I don't know if y'all have a favorite out of all of

(21:29):
that. I don't know that.
I Like You Gotta Love Murder of Crows or what is it a
consequence of the Symphony of Destruction of Destruction?
Me like a coffin e of parrots. Parents abrasive.
No, I Of a brace of asses. Yeah, that's a technical term.

(21:50):
Abrasiveness of hippopotamus, two hippopotamus.
A group of pandas is called an embarrassment, really?
Yeah, I guess because they're clumsy and flop around that
sounds, but that sounds like a delight of pandas.
Yes, yeah, butterflies are really, really different
diverse. There's butterflies that like

(22:11):
help pollinate flowers. There's others that destroy
crops. There's some that live in
harmony with ants. There's others that eat ants.
Yeah, they're just every type ofeverything, the caterpillars are
called an army caterpillars because they just destroy
everything in a way that just eat all the vegetation to go
across yet a group of butterflies, is not called an
Air Force. That's weird.

(22:31):
So, on a, there's a lot of otherinsects, but maybe not regular
flies, which is like, hey, how lucky because Danny asked, do
they have flies on Nathan? She's like, well, we have
butterflies which is kind of like a.
No we don't but we have this instead, but It doesn't
necessarily what she meant. Maybe she was trying to change
the subject. I don't know, but it sounded
like, no, they don't have regular flies, which is Lucky

(22:53):
them. Another Place.
Another reason why the sound Place sounds great except for
the death of except for the factthat we couldn't live there.
But the most valuable insect there is the silkworm and the
silkworm is part of the reason why this country is is somewhat
Global despite being obscure andway the heck out there and way

(23:14):
off the beaten path because cuz silk is an extreme luxury good.
And there's lots of people in this world or in that world and
Planet those who want that. And there's been different times
when though the value of such Goods was extremely high because
well, rich people in particular,once a by silks, it also has

(23:36):
apparently delicate spiced, wines and fine hand crafts.
Which sounds great, especially the spiced wine.
People would want to get those things.
Probably very rare, maybe not asgood as Zarbor wine but maybe
maybe one of the few competitiveIndustries, certainly rare.
So yeah, - that is a deadly disease and thread of slavers.

(23:56):
It's an extremely lovely place. It's tropical and you know it's
fertile it's got to be fertile because it supports a population
that doesn't kill animals. So they're not eating meat, so
they've got to be eaten, you know, they got to be get enough
food from other sources. And there's enough of a
population of people keep comingto try to enslave them.
So it's it might be sparse ish, but it can't be that sparse if

(24:20):
if it's not as far as because they're starving.
Yeah exactly. So let's move on to the actual
people themselves rather than their Locale.
The peaceful people quote, the people native to the island or a
beautiful and gentle race with round flat faces.
Dusky skin and large soft Amber eyes off the flecked with Old,

(24:43):
the peaceful people, then a theater called by seafarers for
they will not fight even in defense of their homes and
persons and that they do not kill, not even Beasts of the
field and would they eat fruit. Not flesh and make music not war
Jake. Yeah.
I was gonna say my kind of people use that sound like great
again except for that. Darn butterfly playing would be

(25:04):
amazing place to live. But yeah, and you wonder this
isn't mentioned, it wouldn't be.There's not really a scenario
where could come up partly because the only Not that we
know of were taken as slaves when they were really young.
So how could they have learned the no theme music of their
people. They were too young to have like
learned how to play it. They wouldn't have been able to
keep up practice with it. They don't have whatever,
instruments are native to their land.

(25:26):
So, someone like missandei, who's only like 10 or 11.
Now has no has no ability to play an instrument but it sounds
like it's something. They're really good at their
songs could be really beautiful,really impressive, especially
with something that they have worked on for Generations.
Maybe they have like Ancestral music that they passed down,
things like that, like songs of their histories, something like

(25:49):
that. In fact, I the more I say it out
loud, the more I feels true and it's yet it's one of many things
that connects them vaguely to the children of the forest who
were called the singers, right, they also made music, the
children did make war as well onthe Giants and stuff.
But still, I'm not saying they have everything in common I'd

(26:13):
rather keep the positive image of the Nazi people but I think
it would be funny if they actually really bad at music,
Everything Was Out Of Tune and no sense of Rhythm.
But they didn't know they had norelative music to compare it to.
So so happy want to tell him it sucked.
It could be it could be good to them if it's like Out Of Tune to
us. But really looks at how that's
so discordant. It's so awesome.

(26:35):
It was the original way to try to keep people away from their
Island. Like we're not willing to do
violence to Invaders, but if we play really bad music, they will
leave. Yeah, since they never took to
the Sea, we can't go through a list of like their Explorations,
but it does seem that the first Outsiders to discover them were
the summer Islanders, which is fitting given the fact that
they're so close by and the summer Islanders were and

(26:57):
perhaps the most Adept at exploration, or at least they'd
be in that discussion. If we've heard of Yacht.
Rock We Have? Nots rock is not rock.
It's peaceful music. Yes, definitely not metal.
They don't even know I guess pretty peaceful.
Yeah, I can be. So they're probably decent

(27:19):
neighbors if not good neighbors or somewhere Islanders, because
they're not slavers. So that that's one huge benefit
at least by comparison to all the other potential neighbors
that are around them. And I say potential neighbors,
because we're going to really long period of time.
Like what about, ye when ye meanwas a city that actually had
people living in it where, however, long that was ago or

(27:40):
whenever maybe sutorius was morepopulated than it was maybe in
ancient times naath was it's connected to that, maybe even
settled by people from the mainland South Oreos because
people just coming up on an island by themselves.
It's usually not how it works, right?
People usually have to migrate to these small Islands at some

(28:02):
point, you know, they don't evolve separate from Humanity
that Fargo, maybe their land separated and some sort of
continental drift thing, but that would be millions of years
ago. So, the seam is likely is just
something more recent, some Adler's long ago, develop their
cultural Exiles maybe, who knows?

(28:24):
Get rid of those, peaceniks sendthem over to that Island pieces
are ready. Yeah.
We're happy to leave and they'restill going well the rest of the
continent is turned to a virtualhellscape over there.
Yeah, there's some real just bigon trading in the not be as we
said, have these great trade goods, the silks, the
handcrafts, the wine somewhere Islanders could probably make a

(28:45):
killing reselling that stuff. They could.
If that stuff is in really high demand around the world.
While the summer Islanders are amazing, it's finding the
marketplaces for those goods. And then keeping track of all
that getting the best prices. They can also coming back to
Nathan with things that they cantrade relatively cheaply and a
theory, probably all interested in all sorts of goods, that
might not have much value elsewhere.

(29:06):
Just because of the Relative obscurity in there and
unavailability locally. So probably a lot of opportunity
there. So, I'm guessing given that we
don't hear about westerosi visiting their other people.
Maybe they do, it's probably they're number one trading
partners, probably the summer Islands.
As, for the people there, in terms of physical description,
it says their eyes are often flecked with Golder oft flecked

(29:27):
with gold Masson days are quote,like molten gold.
So her eyes might be a little even up for her.
People might be a little outstanding, Maybe not, maybe,
maybe the world of Ice and Fire just is a little wrong.
Because how many subjects do they actually have right?
It seems like the error margin is bigger for a race like this.

(29:47):
There's less known there's more obscurity.
And as our general rule is the farther away.
Westeros, the less likely the accuracy is going to be there, I
think with Islands that's even more true islands, where there's
a disease that keep you from staying.
There is even it makes that reason even bigger.
So yeah. With missandei Rising.

(30:10):
So high in Danny's esteem and amongst while a slave just for
her abilities. She was so good at languages and
just thinking about the man. Speaking them, both delivering
them and processing them. There's also that odd bit about
her hearing the scratching and the pyramids.
If you all remember, and I Dancewith Dragons like what?
This is a really interesting mystery that I don't want to

(30:33):
tackle today what want to bring it up as a possible evidence
that something else is is going on with her or their, her
people. I mean what is that is that some
sort of magical ability or no? It's another maybe a little
connection to the children of the forest but problem with
connecting to the children of the forest is we're really
really far from Westeros. And even if you have like

(30:55):
continental drift or stuff like that, it's still kind of hard to
imagine. This was ever Part of Westeros.
And anyway, I mean it's just so far away and I don't know, I'm
skeptical about that but I'm open to it.
What's that for care fraud? In my opinion is the connection.
I was my thought too. I'm partial to it.
I really like the idea that the nathi people did at one point

(31:17):
breed with the Africa for on. It could be because they could
have relocated. I mean, if you imagine something
Oreos was once connected to Mainland essos long, long long
ago, then they can be connected,like where they are now.
If a Kev Runner, arguably even farther away than Westeros is
because they're all North SOS but but you're right, I mean,
we're talking thousands, if not tens of thousands of years ago.

(31:40):
So like these distances don't mean as much when we're talking
about longer periods of time andif potential for the continents
being in different places, if we're going back like hundreds
of thousands or millions of years.
Yeah. Also just the more time that
passes the more opportunity for something that would be very
unusual to happen, something that only happens.

(32:00):
In a thousand years might happen, ten times in a hundred
thousand years, so something that's otherwise unpredictable.
Yeah, that's a good point. Her brother Marcela has also
risen really high, we'll talk about him later.
So we have just a couple of examples of nathi and they just
seem to be like outstanding. Maybe, it's just coincidence,
maybe it's for the purpose of the storage or just wants to

(32:20):
highlight this character becauseit's my Sandy's brother, but
built different. They're just built different was
nothing but different, I mean better better.
Yes, little yellow different better there.
Kind of like what does that? What was that?
That was an ad for a new print or some sort of medicine at
reference. Yeah, it's a little old
medicine. Some medicine commercials
medicine reference really, I won't be the only one to get

(32:42):
that, but I'm sure some people more money.
My age will get that one much, not not a sham and I'm referring
to their eyes. Their eyes are a little golden
eyes, a little golden yellow eyes.
But interestingly multiple times?
Danny brings up taking missandeiback there.
My son. Just like I don't know about

(33:02):
that. She's not super Earth enthralled
with the idea of going back. And I mean she was taken when
she was probably, like 45 years old surprise and have great
memories of it. And she also says, she might be
taken by the slavers again. She's kind of afraid of that and
which go figure. She's worried about her
childhood trauma occurring. Again, I totally get that.
I mean, it makes sense like not,I'd rather not go back to the to

(33:24):
where that happened. Where I'm It's less against that
happening again. So, you example, there was a
masonic a she asked, if she wants to go back and missandei
goes, nah, nah. Yeah, he goes, finish your
words. Yeah, I didn't even think of it
till just now, but I wonder if George is trying to create a
parallel or contrast or whateverthat was Sunday, you know, was

(33:49):
taken from her home, too young to really know where understand
what her home was. In the first place or why she
was taken from there, but she has this new life now.
Whose else is that? Sound like Danny?
I'd really. Yeah, this is the room Danny's.
Not this her room door. Yeah.
And Danny is almost obsessed with going back home.
Where my son is, okay. I don't care about going back

(34:11):
home. Yeah, I wonder if maybe my
Sunday has the better idea, you know?
Like she's not attached to the same as she doesn't really even
understand where Danny is and maybe it's a mistake that I
don't know. It's funny because I mean
missandei is kind of, is it now attached to a thing.
She also doesn't really understand, which is Danny
request for her home. So either way, she's a part of a

(34:33):
kind of vain Quest and maybe maybe Miss Sunday cares more
about Danny's Quest For Justice and rolled up in that is Danny
wanting to get back home. But maybe that's also a mistake
to Danny's making it like look just do the right thing where
you are now and stop worrying about getting back home.
Like maybe I'm imposing too muchin my thoughts about what Dana

(34:54):
should do. But I just never occurred to me
that, that sort of difference, in that both similarity and
difference between Liam Sunday? Yeah, it really is.
I mean honestly I have some notes on that later in the
episodes will come back to this a bit but that's a yeah you're
right. You're totally right to think of
that and it's yeah it's a place.She can t imagine to play.
She could not have all these responsibilities.
It's something she thinks about when she's overwhelmed with all

(35:17):
she has to do missandei says shefeels safe with Danny and that's
that's maybe as much as important as anything else
because she's still really younglike half her life has been in
slavery, in the other half was she was super, super young and
has As private. Very dim memory.
Yeah, so, so yeah. So safety is high up on her
list. Like, she's not an adult so like

(35:37):
she's not able to fend for herself.
Despite her extreme capacity, her big brain.
You know she still not able to fend for herself despite that
especially given where she is. She's like I'm in Marine still
y'all. Like if you're if you're going
to take ship to leave I'm going with you no matter where you're
going you want to take me back there.
Well that would better than being here but I feel safe with
you. So, the Lord of Harmony, that is

(36:01):
the god of Nath later. Danny thinks about the Lord of
Harmony and feels like, it sounds lonely to be what the
lord of Harmony is, which is a really interesting.
Culmination of Danny's beliefs and character aspects.
So yeah, we'll come back to thatbut let's talk about the Lord of
Harmony for now. Here's a quote.
Yeah, first off, I want to say, I appreciate Michael Clark Field

(36:22):
as he drew the Lord of Harmony for his map and he drew him,
referencing Prince. Hmm.
Frances the Lord of Harmony. Anyways, is that the essos map
he did? Yes, that's on the SS map,
exactly. Anyways, Quote, the god of Nath

(36:44):
is called the Lord of Harmony often shown as a laughing giant
bearded and naked always attended by swarms of Slender
maidens. With butterfly wings 100
varieties of butterflies flutterabout the island.
The nathi, Revere them, as messengers of the Lord charged,
with the protection of his people.

(37:04):
Mayhaps. There is some truth to these
Legends for whilst the docile nature of the nathi seemed to
make their Ripe for Conquest, strangers from Beyond the Sea.
Do not live long upon the Isle of butterflies.
In some sense, it's like the opposite, the death, the the
butterfly stuff. It's like when like the

(37:26):
Conquistadors came to South America, the diseases they
brought with them wiped out the locals rather than the other way
around. But people who visited like
natives who were brought back a lot of like slaves who were
brought over seas suffered a similar fate, they didn't have
the immune system that developedin the place.
They were being taken to nor wasthere enough cross-continental

(37:48):
traffic for those antibodies to make their way into the various
societies ahead of time. The Nazi, see the Lord of
Harmony as the one true God. It's a monotheistic religion
which opens up a lot of IRL religious comparisons because of
the, the line swarms of Slender maidens with butterfly wings,
kind of like sexualized Angels or silk sir certain versions of

(38:12):
fairy of course Ferry is a pretty wide open term.
It's a protector figure that enables their pacifism.
It's pretty hard to be a pacifist as I've said in this
world even on an island. When there is a particularly
When world, the only reason you wouldn't get wiped out as a
pacifist Society, especially this dedicated to pacifism, is
because they have this protective element, whether it's

(38:35):
the God, protecting them. Whether it's just, this strange,
Quirk of nature that immune systems work, a certain way, or
a combination of both, which kind of how I like to perceive.
It seems like a good way to imagine things in a fantasy
world where these things are happening.
But it's, it's for that reason, it's Unique, bro.
I mean, there's I don't lamb menof the lazzarini nor also fairly

(39:01):
pacifistic but not to this degree.
But it is another person we think of, when we think of the
whole, what is life. When you know what is life, when
you've lost everything around you that mirri Maz duur says,
this is kind of where missandei and Danny have both found
themselves. Even though Danny is at least
not responsible for that being inflicted on mirri.

(39:23):
Maz duur. but she didn't perceive it as an evil when it
when it very much was, and There's an episode of Star Trek
the Next Generation that really reminds me of this.
There's an episode where they find a Proto a human culture,
that's extremely primitive and there's this like alien presence

(39:45):
that protects them and enforces.These really really harsh laws,
like Wesley Crusher is playing catch and he falls into some
plants and they're like, well, you're gonna be executed now
what you like and they have the prime directive.
So they're not allowed in A fearbut they can't just allow their
crew member to be executed either in like, well what do we

(40:06):
do here? So, yeah.
Anyway, I'm going to describe the whole episode but it's kind
of like that where like if you don't there's this
overwhelmingly powerful unexplained, Godlike being
protecting these really happy friendly.
Untouched like Garden of Eden style naive naive.

(40:27):
Yes, very nice. Yeah, absolutely.
You know, it reminds me a littlebit of the time machine to but
before I say, As a couple of thethoughts that have been like
sternum me for a second here, the idea is really hard to be a
pacifist in this world. It's it's it wouldn't be hard if
everyone did it. It's only hard because some
people don't do it. It'd be really easy to be a
pacifist. If everyone was a passenger.

(40:50):
It is always hard getting peopleon the same page and this world
or any world. Yeah, another that to you just
the idea of just a couple thoughts.
Swirling in me that, I don't know where to go with him.
Exactly. But it's what about how?
There's just the nasty people just have this one.
True God, which is different from most of the rest of Planet

(41:12):
hosts culture that there are a couple exceptions but I think
even some of the other exceptions.
Still, like the boys do knowledge of the Gods, even if
they don't worship them, right? Even the other monotheistic
religions like real or has a great other.
Like it's actually to God's at War.
As far as we know, there is no counterpart to the Lord of
Harmony, like the Lord of disharmony, or should.

(41:34):
And but that's good. But yeah so I want to think
about that for a second and alsothink I had this idea of maybe
what kind of symbolic idea George potentially had whether
he actually had it or had it butit evolved over time.
But but I don't know. Just think about the idea that
maybe Sunday is going to come out of her cocoon at some point.

(41:56):
You know, let's close our maybe the or maybe her brother or the
nephew people in general. That, you know, maybe they will
Bloom. If you will into something
bigger or more beautiful, and maybe that could happen with
their religion or their belief about God.
And Harmony also, it seems to tertiary, or course she area to
to get that involved in that thecentral plot lines that are

(42:19):
going on. But I don't know.
But just a thought, just a thought that you, maybe, maybe
not the Lord of Harmony or the Nazi people, but maybe we're
lures idea of there being only one true God.
And it did. Yeah, seven of Westeros are
going to fall and that would be Sort of a new Blossom.
You know, something that's in a cocoon is going to come out and
fly over all the rest of everything.

(42:41):
But um, so anyway, sorry for that ramble, but in The Time
Machine, by the way, spoiler alert in case you're about to
read The Time Machine. I could just go back in time to
before that. Yeah, it was, it was so
different than what I thought itwas gonna be, you know, I
thought, you know, when I think of a time machine or maybe if I
was going to write about a time machine, I think about, like

(43:03):
going back into past the change things or going to Future, see
what's going to happen and coming back to the presents for
to give a warning, whatever. But it really was, I realized
this more like a like a dystopian.
It's closer to like, you know, Ido 1984 Brave New World or
something. He goes way into the future,
like hundreds of thousands of years into the future and I

(43:24):
think there's some other like maybe first, he goes like two
hours into the future and doesn't even realize that he did
it, you know, isn't fooling around but the Crux of it is
like hundreds of Of years into the future and the world has
evolved at first, it seems and to this very pacifistic Paradise
naive culture where everyone they don't know how to read, but

(43:45):
they have plenty of food. They only eat fruit, no killing
no meet, you know? But it turns out that there's
this underground tribe of peoplewho are, Who harvest?
The, I think this the morlocks are underground than that Eli or
something or above ground. Into these darker.
This darker race underground provides for the upper race, but

(44:09):
then also, They have to be sacrificed.
So it's like that's kind of likethe Matrix then to right, there
are making everyone feel happy but they're not really.
Yeah, actually being harvested. Yeah.
Yeah, it's a simile at similar truck.
That makes sense. Cool.
Yeah. Now I don't know if you have the
same harvesting element it goingon in math but the idea that
they're this very pacifistic, I don't eat meat, but, but there

(44:29):
is this dark element mixed in there too.
There is a dark element. Yeah, with the disease and yeah,
and maybe more, but yeah, it is interesting that they don't seem
to have like a, like a devil figure, you know, there's no
Satan equivalent storm. God.
To their Drowned God or great other two they're real or at
least as far as we know it's gonna be people that isn't super
well. Export like for example what is
there, what is there long night?Myth look like, do they have

(44:51):
one? They probably do but we you know
that we're not really exposed totheir myth Cycles in their
history because of the difficulty in contacting their
people and establishing relations and things like that.
Yeah, we're probably lucky to have as much information as we
do given their basic nature, right?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's often interesting to

(45:13):
compare in World scholarly textslike the world of Ice and Fire.
Two knowledge is it's probably closer to the source.
Like in this quote, Danny speaking on what she's learned
from a Sunday Missandei had toldher of the Lord of Harmony
worshipped by the peaceful people of naath.
He was the only true God, her little scribe said the God who

(45:33):
always was, and always would be who made the moon and stars and
Earth and all the creatures thatdwelt upon them, poor Lord of
Harmony Danny pitied him. It must be terrible to be alone
for all time. Attended by hordes of butterfly
women you could make or unmake. At a word.

(45:55):
Well, pitying, a God. That's a mood, isn't it?
Like you gotta. Danny is not a normal being but
I do get it. I'm not, that's not an insult
dateable. To hers is exactly, which is
it's not relatable to normal people but to her it is like
she's on top of a pyramid, looking down on Marine when she
has this moment. So it is by hordes of what.
Exactly has she has her? Her handmaid?

(46:17):
She has missandei specifically who is like exactly one of those
beings because she's not the Thethat would be one of the
butterfly women's almost her. Yeah.
So, yeah, I'm not criticizing Danny.
I think this is very understandable given her
position in life and her lack ofher own family history that
she's got a direct connection toshe knows it's there and she's

(46:39):
heard of it, like the targaryensare famous and all that
obviously, but she's disconnected from that on a
personal level. So she feels a lot of these
other things in, she's got to fill in that Gap with other
things and yeah like like Sean was smart to bring up a fourth
Yeah, it's this is her red door.In a lot of ways is thinking
about she's romanticizing. Someone else's lost childhood

(47:02):
over hers, partly because she doesn't know that much about her
own, and I mean, this description sounds amazing.
It sounds like, yeah, I'd love to go there where it's out of
the way and people don't kill, and there's songs.
And yeah, Danny seems to not be getting this butterfly part that
you can't actually go there. For very long.

(47:24):
Like, she just got him glosses over that when she's thinking
about it. But hey, you know, she's
daydreaming, you're allowed to do that.
So in real life pacifism, isn't that uncommon in various
scriptures though? There's what's written and what
people actually do. Of course, there's always
there's a lot of differences andwhat's written, what people

(47:46):
actually do out in life, the 5 precepts of Buddhism include.
Number one is a belief and not killing anything.
That breathes even, you know, plenty of Buddhists, don't do
that, there have been Buddhist armies.
See that's a thing as maybe thatsounds like Oxymoron.
But you know, if you go back in history that's been a thing
obviously doesn't really align with their belief systems to do

(48:07):
that but people have obviously more egregiously gone against
religious texts than that. It's not even that different
from Thou shalt not kill. It's not the first of the Ten
Commandments. It's usually the fifth, the
order kind of depends on which version you look at either way
it's still, you know, in there. There's many versions of

(48:29):
pacifism and that aren't religious as well in the real
life in real life. But they tend to the way the
argument tends to fall is whether or not self-defense is
okay, that's tends to be where alot of the Crux of pacifism
fall. Some verses pacifism we're like
yes, absolutely self-defense is okay.
Some verses passivism like the naughty version is just no

(48:51):
outright no form of violence is okay?
No matter what not even self-defense.
Almost all versions of real lifepacifists agree that serving in
any sort of military is goes against their beliefs because
almost no military is purely defensive.
And even in that sense, you, youlose your ability to make
decisions on your own and it's your individual choice, that
enables it to stay that way. Another criticism, one of the

(49:15):
one of the arguments against pacifism of courses that it's
isn't, it better to have thousands died to prevent the
death of millions. It's like I'm pure maths like
yeah, I guess so. But what kind of long-term are
we talking about? You know?
That's, yeah. How sure are you?
That you will be saving Millions?
It will only be thousands. It dies.
It's a slippery slope but yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Yeah, you know, you know, Gandhi

(49:39):
had his own kind of awkward and distasteful at Aesthetic
elements, but his idea of pacifism, was it known even in
not in self-defense? His idea was it, absolute
fastest. Yeah.
Fundamentally and the end humansare good.
And that if you just literally, let someone beat you to death,

(49:59):
the person beating you to death,eventually will realize they're
doing something wrong and if they don't the rest of culture
will and they will stop it from happening, it was kind of right.
Like the the British soldiers literally opened machine guns on
people sitting down and Sugar hundreds of people and then the
rest of the world was like okay.That's you can't do that anymore
in England's like yep you're right.
We can't believe we did that. You can be independent.

(50:21):
Now we're getting out of here, you know that it took a terrible
sacrifice but it's the basic cure pacifism did work for the
benefit of a billion people, youknow.
And of course India is a very Hindu country and one version of
Hindu is Jainism. And that's the most similar that
I could find to the belief system of the peaceful people of

(50:42):
the not. Because Jainism is sure no harm
to anything. No harm to animals, no harm to
people. Nothing that leads to violence
indirectly. Not necessarily vegan because
you're allowed to have milk froman animal if the male animal
wasn't harmed, but you they may find themselves having to choose

(51:03):
veganism in order to avoid harm to animals because a lot of
times, it's hard to in the real world get products from animals
that don't involve harming them.They don't even.
By the way, eat root vegetables.It's because you have to kill
the whole playing. You have to like uproot the
whole plant and kill it. So you can eat the berries and
apples off of a tree or whateverand not kill it.
But if you pull up the potato from the earth, you kill the

(51:25):
whole thing. They don't even want to do that.
Yep, you're totally right. Yeah, so that's that's absolute
pacifism and that I would guess is the best model we have for
the naafi in the real world. There's something like four to
five million Janus in the world right now and they're Amish.
I would maybe be the closest like American versions of that
but I think even Quakers believein self defense.

(51:48):
I think Amish do as well but very limited.
They're, they're pretty, they'renot as quite as pacifist.
This is Jana. Slickers, vegetarian, did I not
know? I think some of these but I
don't think so. I think they know I don't think
they're. Yeah, I don't think they eat
animal. Yeah, pretty sure I wish.

(52:09):
I knew a little better. I'm definitely don't.
They're definitely Aryan Christian sects.
Yeah, yeah. And those tend to be the
pacifistic ones. So yeah, like I Sean and I have
a mutual lung a friend from a long way back, who is a vegan
advocate for Christians? He's a super Christian guy who's
also thinks that all Christians should be vegan.
So, he believes scripture shouldbe interpreted that way, not a

(52:32):
lot of people agree. But hey, it's a valid point as
far as I'm concerned. I do know, a fundamental
difference between Amish and Quakers.
Amish are very much about following the scripture.
They very much want to try to fault.
Now the scripture has a lot of contradictions so I don't know,
quite how to handle it, but I believe Quakers are a little bit

(52:52):
more. Like try to figure out the right
thing. Like follow your inner goodness,
you know, and hopefully that lines up with scripture, but
fundamentally you got to do whatyou believe is, right?
Modern Quakers, actually aren't All Christian anymore, they cite
other religious texts. Like there's there's a famous
quote, famous quote, unquote famous Quaker, who sites from

(53:13):
the Quran, quite a bit because yeah, it's more it because
you're because that fits in withyour saying, they care more
about good than what people wrote down in the past, you
know, it's is what is good is what's good?
That doesn't, you know, you don't need necessary.
Need a book to tell you that, sothey don't want to rely on
scripture for that. So the, yeah, I went to a quaker
school when I was in first grade.
So let's talk about the Let's get into their academics a

(53:34):
little bit here. Someone does suspect the
butterfly a certain archmaester quote archmaester ebro's who has
made a study of all known accounts of the Affliction
believes that. It is spread by the butterflies
that the peaceful people Revere for.
This reason, the disease is often called Butterfly fever.

(53:55):
Some believe the fever is carried only by one particular,
sort of butterfly, a large blackand white variety with wings as
big as a man. Hand is favored by Eros, but
this remains conjecture whether the butterflies of, nah, they're
true. Handmaids of the Lord of
Harmony, or no more than common insects like their cousins in

(54:16):
the Seven Kingdoms, it may well be that the nathi are not wrong
in regarding them as Guardians. So someone does respect the
butterfly, glad to see that someone figured it out.
No, none of this butterfly propaganda getting around
picturing mindset, butterfly being like eBay.
Bro. Yeah, it was the butterfly.

(54:40):
Sure. Yeah.
So it's a nasty disease. It's brutal.
And just yeah, like you said Shawn, it's with something
that's a little out of sync withall the rest of the vibe of this
island because it's just so gross.
Sounding for example, here's thequote that describes just that

(55:01):
Fever is the first sign of this plague followed by painful
spasms that make it seem as if victims are dancing wildly and
uncontrollably in the last stage, The Afflicted, sweat
blood and their flesh sloths from their bones.
What the hell? You know.
You dance. You know the chill dancing
disease. Yeah.

(55:24):
How does that? How does it?
How does dancing Sean feel aboutthis?
I would rather do a different dance.
You know, I'm not being serious when I say this, but Loki,
reason my son to be like, you know what, maybe my immunity
isn't his Wayne since I'm not there amongst the butterflies,
and I don't know if I should go back.
We don't understand how it works.
It's, it's very possibly, just areal world thing, you know, like

(55:48):
a nature, or natural disease. It's transmitted.
Now that would be a little outside of what we know about
butterflies. Can the real world butterflies
can transmit diseases, not to people.
They can carry diseases but theycan't transmit them to There's
no Vector for like butterflies, can't bite you but they can
carry parasites. Like any living thing.
Any living thing can carry parasites basically.

(56:10):
But yeah, they're not like fleasor ticks or mosquitoes or any
number of insects that can bite people or other animals and
spread diseases. So, that is why it might be
magical. Maybe a lot of times parasites
are pretty, especially evolved Like A Parasite for one thing
isn't necessarily going to be able to Be parasitical to

(56:33):
another thing I haven't studied butterfly parasites.
Exactly. But uh, another thing about her
butterflies is they can be poisonous like in real life.
There are there are several poisonous species or whatever
but there's a difference betweenlike you know if you eat it and
you get sick to your stomach, then if you're on an island,

(56:53):
where they exist, your skin falls off, you know, is their
range of what poisonous means but but Apparently they it's
some butterflies can eat, I guess they eat maybe others but
milkweed, which is poisonous, but the butterfly itself has is
able to, like, I don't know, compartmentalize the toxin, so

(57:14):
it doesn't poison itself, but ifsomething else eats a butterfly,
then they get the poison. And there are colorful patterns,
often in nature, colorful patterns like a warning and
poison. So the Predator is no, are not
going to eat that butterfly because it's poisonous.
So, but again, it's it doesn't, it seems That's easy to avoid.
This doesn't seem like the people especially if it's kind

(57:35):
of known as the butterfly disease.
I can't imagine people land on math and eat the butterflies for
three days and then get sick anddon't understand what happened,
you know. So I'm not sure why they'd be
eating the butterflies at all because especially if you're
from somewhere else like this, there's probably plenty of
animals roaming around because, you know, the Nathan aren't

(57:56):
eating them. Let's go fishing.
The fish are like the fish fry swim right up to you.
They don't no better Hibernian fruit anyway.
Yeah, why bother killing me animals.
You got this fruit hanging there?
Yeah, I am once again, we reminded of George r.r.
Martin story and seven times never kill man.
We've referred to it many times because it just keeps being a

(58:17):
good reference point. The Jane, she are the peaceful
race in that setting their absolute pacifist as well even
when they're like religious altars are being destroyed.
Their gods are being destroyed but there Their long-term innate
sort of mysterious defense ends up working out and converting

(58:37):
the attackers to something else,and kind of neutralizing them in
the very long term. In the meantime, a lot of people
get slaughtered, but in the longterm, the bad guys are defeated
basically like here, Nothing Stops.
The bad guys from coming back and Nothing Stops this, the
immediate, slaughter, their people, but in the long term,
there is that Karma, you know, Ithink it's then that children of

(58:58):
the forest episode Talk about that.
There's also one more real-worldthing.
I want to throw out here before we go to our mid-roll, which is
the dancing plague of 1518 of mysterious occurrence.
That is pretty well, documented by sources, in the city of
Strasbourg. Lady true FEA, a woman named

(59:20):
late, August would have been Frau true FEA cause this is
Germany. She just started dancing one day
in the square and danced for like a week.
And other people started joiningin up to from somewhere from
between. 50 and 400 people danced with her for weeks.
Some, there's some claims that people died, many people died,

(59:41):
but those were mostly the later sources that may have been in
later embellishment. But there's no good explanation
for this. There is a abundant evidence
that this happened to some degree and be no good
explanation for why it's like Mass hysteria.
Some strange unknown documented disease.
Mushrooms got in the water mushrooms.

(01:00:01):
Got you know what though? Very suspiciously.
I read a lot of possible explanations for This nobody
suspects the butterfly not one like hello, gosh, hmm.
Those strassburger hers, not thinking correctly.

(01:00:23):
I'm never more grateful for our patreon community.
Then we do episodes like this, the ones that are extremely
obscure, we really couldn't. If we were trying solely to
court advertisers, we really would not be doing episodes like
If this at all to obscure we can't go showing the download
numbers on this episode to someone be like look at the
numbers on this one. Yeah it's it's not going to be

(01:00:46):
as high as you know like a main down the middle topic like
something about the main series or a TV show House of the dragon
or Game of Thrones. So yeah.
So I'm thankful to those of you who support us and all the
different ways you can support us.
Whenever we do an episode like this that comes to mind for me.
Let's talk some history such that it is because we don't have

(01:01:06):
a Lot of history on it as we said they don't have their own
stories and lore how even they keep history is a mystery to us
if they do it all but we have outside stories and anecdotes
here and there here's Danny thinking of what she's learned
from missandei. One day she hoped to see this
fabled. I love math.

(01:01:27):
Missandei said the peaceful people made music instead of
War, they did not kill. Not even animals.
They ate only fruit and never Flash the butterfly Spirits
sacred to their lord of Harmony Protected.
Their, I'll against those who would do them harm, many
conquerors had, sailed on, not to blood their swords only to

(01:01:49):
sicken and die, the butterflies,do not help.
Help them when the slave ships. Come rating though.
Yeah. And that's an important
consideration and important reality is something that Danny
can't help, but notice, especially given her position.
Remember, we're talking this is the same part of the book.
When she's Atop The Pyramid, feeling lonely, and Godlike and

(01:02:12):
trying to balance all that and still be a human.
And while bonding with missandeiover these unusual traumatic
traumatic things from their past, So she can't help but
notice that, yes, even though the butterfly God has his
revenge, so to speak on the people that come to raid, the
aisle, doesn't actually stop them from doing it and they keep

(01:02:34):
coming back. So, it is kind of a Romanticized
ideal. She's daydreaming, as we said in
the first half, sort of hoping, but I think a part of her
realizes that this isn't really in her future that it's not very
likely to happen. And as things get realer, and

(01:02:54):
realer for her throughout the story, as she gets to Westeros
and is confronted with the enemies that are just names to
her. Let alone, the ones that she
isn't fully aware of like, but others and the army of the Dead
The dream of a place, like natheor the red door will be even
less realistic and it's already pretty unrealistic given all her

(01:03:16):
responsibilities and the swirl of everything she's caught up
in. So, no, even if it was
realistic, it's probably not what she thinks you know.
Like I think this a lot of timesthe good old days are the old
days are always the good old days, you know?
Yeah, yeah. And even what missandei know

(01:03:38):
that we said might be a little romanticize because she her only
perspective of it is as a five-year-old and or
four-year-old. However old she was and for
maybe what little she's talked to her brothers who were a
little older than her but they've been through unsullied
training. I mean they've been horribly
traumatized and changed. They might still have memories
of it but they would have been What's the condition to forget

(01:04:00):
their past as much as possible as part of that brutal
conditioning? So when I brought this up
before, what about Yeon? Do they ever trade with the
union and the super ancient past?
Or what about could go so's? See, it's a bit of an irony that
knife is in worse shape, after the Doom, even though the

(01:04:22):
valyrians were such big slavers and the Nabi make quote-unquote,
the best slaves. Well, it seems that the
valyrians maybe didn't see it quite that way, because they
might have value. Did the products the produce of
math more than just enslaving yet another race?
Because well, we mentioned the silk, right?

(01:04:44):
That's something that the elite valyrians would value more than
not more than any slave but theyhave so many slaves from all
over the world. I mean, they're just ass in
massive slaving Empire, this tiny Island.
Can't be that big a source of Manpower, but if it's the best
silk in the world, yeah, the elite would value that more,

(01:05:05):
right? It's rarer, it's more, it's more
Prestige of a good than just oneother type of slave.
Same thing goes for some of those hand crafts and rare wines
that ironically velarium. May have valued those goods more
than what we're seeing. Now in the post Doom era where

(01:05:27):
it says back to just more brutalstraightforward slavery that we
get from well, the slaver citiesof Old geese that are in their
rebound phase over the last. Several hundred years in the
post. Do mayor, of course, marine and
yunkai and astapor mostly referring to but also places
like volantis. So, The basilisks may have been

(01:05:54):
more tightly controlled when gaseous was the big Power in
that region. An actual Valyrian City, ruled
by probably archons under directly ruled by dragonlords.
Well, yeah, there would have been less piracy in that era and
certainly would have been some. But now we're in an era where
just a bunch of topic. Free-for-all, it's a big wild

(01:06:16):
west and our key situation whichis not good for the peaceful.
I love Nate. So we do have some of this POV
from other cultures who attempted to go, there are a
variety of things were tried. None of which really addressed
the root cause of why you shouldn't go there in the first
place, quote. The ghiscari seized the island

(01:06:40):
Thrice in the days of the old Empire.
The valyrians erected a fort there.
Whose walls a fuse Dragonstone can still be seen a company of
volunteen adventurers once builtto trade Town, Complete with
Timber, Palisades and slave pens.
Corsairs from the Basilisk Isles, have landed on naath

(01:07:00):
countless times yet. None of these Invaders survived,
and the nathi, claimed that none.
Last Lasted more than a year forsome evil humor lurks in the
very air of this Fair Isle. And all those who linger too
long enough soon, succumb Fortress of the fuse

(01:07:20):
Dragonstone. There's not many of these in the
world that we know of, so it's peculiar that they built one
here thinking, nothing lives there.
I wonder, I'm guessing, no, because it was probably built on
the coast and we know that they have since shunned.
The coast supposed Doom, be cut to avoid the slaver.
So, I would think maybe they lived there before this became a

(01:07:41):
problem because the valyrians would have abandoned it long
before the Doom. And maybe they would, or should
live there because it's defensible, but they don't want
to defend, they don't even want to defend themselves against.
So they just leave and go where it's harder to be found.
Yeah, I could see them completely shutting the place
because it's got beasts like Dragon Stone carved into it or

(01:08:05):
just because of they don't like it.
They're just like yuck that place along to them and who
knows what weird sorceries they use, just they're against it,
what it represents, and they don't Need it, so they're not
going to use it. This is these aren't people that
seem like They're looking to getahead, you know, they're looking
to exist and be at peace or maybe it's a hint that they're

(01:08:28):
not as absolutely pacifistic. As we thought, maybe they did do
defend themselves. Maybe there's a 10% of them are
like We're going to take up arms.
What are the other 90% gonna do about that besides social
consequences? I mean there there, which could
be severe, you know, there's a lot of like you said, India,
long-term the shunning, and the worldview help mattered.

(01:08:51):
Maybe that 10% just couldn't stand up to the weight of the
shame from their ancestors and their, their elders.
But, you know, maybe it lasted for several years, who knows?
Also, like, what difference doesthe social shame matter if
you're dead or they're dead anyway?
You like I can see some contingency of them deciding.

(01:09:12):
This is the best way or we have no choice or whatever.
But it still seems like It stillseems weird that such I don't
know, large, elaborate, whateverstructures could have been
built, that they would have had to like building quickly to not
die from doing it, which means they had kind of had to have had
a plan for it in the first place.

(01:09:32):
I wonder if maybe it wasn't so much that they wanted to build
this to defend against the Nazi.That might have tried to fight
back despite their gentle nature, maybe to fight off.
Other invading forces may be. Like, we're going to get a
foothold on this island and get control their silkworms and We
don't want these other Pirates. Taking it from us, but they
maybe they even naively thought they'd be safe inside a dragon

(01:09:54):
Stone structure. It seems it is a lot about this
seems unusual to me. I definitely agree with you
Sean. I let some of these same
thoughts that you're expressing her similar to some of the ones
I've had, like, if we again, useexample of gases, that was what
I was originally Gore guy, whichwas built by the ghiscari and
the valyrians took it. So you can see ya.
And this isn't far from the Basilisk Isles, the theater of

(01:10:15):
war in one of the many, if not, Not multiple of the Valerian
ghiscari Wars included Seth Oreos, which is because they
were both getting resources fromtheir to use in their greater
overall War efforts. So now it's hard to see nathe as
a valued source of wartime Goods, but wealth.

(01:10:40):
Okay. Yeah, there is there definitely
generating different gender in money from it so there is that.
So maybe you can work in tile type conflict rather than a
military one but I could see maybe someone maybe had some
strategic positioning but from atrade standpoint or military
standpoint and may be combined with that.

(01:11:02):
Some naivete or foolishness. Like they literally just didn't
know the rumors that, you know, you can imagine maybe some some
foreign pirate that came to thisarea.
So the potential, you know, found some fortune and said,
hey, why is no one building anything this island?
Let's go do it, but it still seems like to have done it to

(01:11:23):
the extent that they did and they would have had to do it
quickly. It seems like that's sort of
planning wouldn't have come fromsomeone.
It was completely naive. Yeah, that makes sense.
It's still doesn't totally add up to me.
So okay, so a couple more theories I have here and a
couple more considerations whichcolor the theories somewhat.
Okay so we have the valyrians. The dragonlords have probably a

(01:11:48):
greater resistance to disease not this one apparently or maybe
they do and we just don't know. It's not exactly.
The individual cases aren't exactly well-documented.
We don't have a lot of, we don'thave any like, maybe, maybe they
could survive for Enter 15 days instead of two or three days and
that might be enough to build a structure here.
Well, we're told it takes up to a year for people to start dying

(01:12:09):
from it. So maybe that's that might be
part of the buffer. There might be part of what
causes people's disbelief and like, yeah, see, I'm been here
for weeks and I've been fine, you know, and, and you're right,
they might have tried other methods like, well, we just kill
all the butterflies to come nearus, just, you know, we use
sorcery or Flames or something to keep all the butterflies
away. We're fine.
And they use locals to do a lot of the labor.

(01:12:31):
So the labor force is building the walls, maybe is You know,
not doesn't put them as much risk.
They don't have to import other laborers who would just die as
well. Or if they do, they don't care
because they don't care what happens to their slaves because
they're huge jerks or the wall building is faster than we think
because it's this fuse Dragonstone thing which implies

(01:12:52):
a magical process or some sort of technological process that we
don't fully understand Proto magical.
So that might be quicker than wethink my laws might be a really
small Fort might not be happening.
It might be like a, a 50-person Enclave.
Or something. But it may they may have planned
it being larger and just everybody died.
So, they stopped. It says Ford it might Amin

(01:13:16):
incomplete for it partially. Yeah Port, yeah.
It could also, I suppose, it could be other things, too,
like, maybe a Twain's may be different seasons especially
since seasons can last for years.
Maybe, maybe in the winter or the summer, the death doesn't

(01:13:36):
happen, it doesn't happen as quickly.
Well, we are at we seem to be ina tropical regions there.
May not be as much of a distinction between winter and
summer, but still there. You're right and I think you're
on the right track for their kids to be magical Seasons, like
the comic coming or something like that.
That in this sir. Time period, they got away with
it and you know, but I almost understand why they kept trying

(01:13:57):
for one things. Like if the valyrians learned
about the butterfly sickness, they're not going to go tell the
ghiscari and vice versa. They don't have, you know,
they're these are enemies and itdoes.
It does sound kind of ridiculous?
Doesn't it? Put a butterfly Again, The
Simpsons reference? The butterfly.
No One Believes. It's the butterflies.
Come on the butterfly. It's like the Holy Grail like

(01:14:18):
you don't go in that cares of monster too.
Huge fan of butterflies are gay,like, we're not worried about
the butterflies. I mean, if you have been worried
about the butterflies, because, yeah, if you're some bold
Adventurer, and if you heard of a place where everyone was
completely nonviolent, had golden eyes and a butterfly God
protected them, you wouldn't believe like any of that.

(01:14:39):
He would think all of it was exaggerated or at least not
entirely true, you know, being delegated or whatever.
Yeah. So and again.
Yeah, but they'd be wrong. There's under Estimating the
butterfly. but again, so this islike you said, this is peculiar
a the fact that they tried the fact that they Went through so
much again that I could not havedone all that, just for some few

(01:15:03):
extra slaves, it just doesn't stack.
Even though even again, they're the best slaves, they have to
be. So amazingly better than all the
other people, so justify it and less.
So I again, I suspect it's the trade goods.
The some, the Great Value that they were finding here in
mercantilism is more the thing that matters to them or in a non
human capital. Yeah kind of following up on

(01:15:27):
what you were saying earlier from a you know, very cold, very
evil standpoint. If they're you know if you just
don't care about the value of life or culture and there is a
tribe in the jungle and they're just sustaining themselves right
there, they're generating food, they're singing songs to each
other. You know, they may be a happy

(01:15:47):
people and happy culture but they're not generating some tray
good. You can take and go sell
somewhere, take them all slaves.But if you find some coal, Chur,
that's generating wine and silk if you take them all as slaves.
Well, that's it. But if you come back every year
and get their wine and silks, that's more valuable than just
take them all slaves once so that you can see how it may.

(01:16:08):
Be the Pirates might have treated the island differently
aside from the butterfly death, you know.
Right. Exactly.
Like what Danny is taught about the Dothraki.
She's like why don't the three aKia stack.
The slave cities was like, well because then, who would they
sell their slaves? To they need the markets.
They don't want to destroy the marketplaces, you know?
They'll destroy pretty much anything else but they need a

(01:16:28):
place to sell their it's like even criminals won't rob their
one fence. Right.
Because that's who they sell alltheir stolen goods to like
they're screwed without that outlet.
So yeah, even evil War mongeringpeople still value a certain
level of stability and consistency or whatever.
Right. Right.
Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't other, like it wasn't

(01:16:52):
drug dealers who brought down the Silk Road online, silk
route. Yeah.
Yeah, whatever. Okay, let's move on a little
bit. Here's another people that came
on the aisle for once. They came in peace quote.
For the next three years, the rhoynar wandered, the southern

(01:17:13):
Seas seeking a new home, on na the Isle of butterflies, the
peaceful people gave them welcome.
But the god that protects that Strange Land began to strike
down the newcomers by the score with a nameless mortal illness.
Driving them back to their ships.
So I gotta wonder how this played out.

(01:17:34):
Like, did they not warn them? I mean, I guess they couldn't
maybe communicate with each other. be like pointing at the
Matthew point of butterflies andbeing like, And morning.
Very beautiful. I was a beautiful.
Yeah. Butterfly necklace is okay.
Yeah we'll make butterfly necklace.
This necklace is gonna let them put them right here.

(01:17:58):
So this was of course after the rhoynar nymeria letter, people
away from Seth Oreos in the Basilisk Isles, the the entire
group vanished from Eugene and all that other stuff.
So, Clearly, the Lord of Harmony.
The butterfly sickness makes no distinction between friendly and
slaver. I mean, we're not, obviously,

(01:18:18):
maybe not every single rhoynar was friendly but it sounds like
nymeria was looking for a home. And didn't antagonize anyone
over much, but you know, who knows?
What's going to offend a culturelike this?
So extremely pacifistic in different, the Renard been
through a lot. I mean I see them as good guys.

(01:18:39):
Compared to the valyrians but I don't know that you can just say
they're good guys. You know, they, they were, they
had soldiers and Wars as well. Not that all soldiers are bad.
Obviously, I'm just saying theirvalues would be a lot different
than the nathi even coming in peace, right?
You know, you remind me of another thought I had earlier
that I was resistant to even putout there because I'm trying to

(01:19:01):
think of the not the as being positive.
I'm so excited about the idea oftheir pacifism to the point of
not even eating meat but But that still doesn't necessarily
mean they're good. They're, you can do evil things
without being violent. You know, we were even if not
straight up evil, you could still be mean or inappropriate,
even if you're not violent. So might be a little much for us
to assume the not the are all pure good.

(01:19:23):
Yeah, So eventually the rhoynar you know it says they fled to
their ships and moved on they next went to the Summer Isles
where they had to leave because the place the Summer Isles
Islanders allow them to settle wasn't fertile enough for them
to make a scratch out a living and that's what led him to
Dorne, right. But you wonder what?
A the stories they would have told of math.
I wonder if this is where some of the knowledge of math came

(01:19:45):
from in Westeros because this these people eventually migrated
Dorn and that's Westeros right so the knowledge of nathe is
very limited in Westeros and some of it may have been seated
by the rhoynar actually going there.
Some 600 years ago. We're not entirely clear on that
timeline but it's in the hundreds, not thousands.
So interesting possibility entering little in direct

(01:20:08):
connection to To Westeros would be the rhoynar passing through
there because we certainly West Rossi knowledge about.
It isn't likely to have originated As Much from the
ghiscari or the valyrians, right?
I mean, that's a lot of that's is too far or far gone in the
case of it being blown up. Or just different languages,
right? Whereas the Rhine are eventually

(01:20:30):
were learning common and writingstuff down and passing it on to
maesters. You see what I'm saying?
So given in their popularity among slavers, it's no surprise
that amongst the many, many races that were there for the
founding of Bravo's, the not--they were included, so they
are in that group. We don't have anything special

(01:20:52):
to say about that. Just thought it was worth
mentioning. It's kind of cool.
Little world-building tidbit. Now, you can tell that they were
involved in the founding of braavos.
Why is that right? The devil.
Hey, that was their contributionis Bravo's with the 1A and the
Naki representative like, wait wait wait wait, wait.

(01:21:15):
I don't feel represented here. This is, we agree with your
position on. I'm being very anti slavery, but
slavery. However, if we have A small
change, like you got the not they just wanted a added.

(01:21:40):
They're like what? Okay, give it to them, I guess.
No, that's that's where the Fonzwould be from.
Here's this sad to say, the coursera's who prowled the seas
around off long ago, learned that the chances of dying Of

(01:22:03):
butterfly fever. We're low so long as they did
not remain upon the island for more than a few hours and lower
still. If they only came ashore at
night, for butterflies, are creatures of the day and love
the Morning Dew and the afternoon sun.
Thus, it is that slavers from the Basilisk Isles of descend

(01:22:25):
upon NOS during the dark of night to carry off whole
Villages into bondage. So it sounds like there.
Learning. Unfortunately, all this 400
years in the post Valerian era, these slavers from the Basilisk
Isles that are recurring thing. Have passed down this knowledge
and this is like evil slaver knowledge.

(01:22:46):
The kind of stuff we see all over the slave cities where they
learn the weaknesses, and tricksof the trade that are used to
exploit Humanity in some of the worst ways we can imagine.
And this is basically from that same overall, Playbook figuring
Going out. When the best time to do evil
is, it's almost simple when you break it down this way, like

(01:23:08):
yeah, just go at night and of course, in some ways attacking
at night, gives them even more advantages.
But yeah, it makes sense that the nearby slavers would be the
ones that figured that out, you know, the regional knowledge,
rather than the ones coming fromfar away they would be less
likely to know that Here's another quote related to this.

(01:23:29):
The peaceful people always bringgood prices.
It is said for, they are as clever as they are, gentle, fair
to look upon and quick to learn obedience.
It is reported that one pillow house on lease is famed for its
naughty girls who are clad and diaphanous silk and gowns.
And adorned with gaily painted butterfly wings, such raids have

(01:23:53):
become so frequent since the century of blood that the
peaceful people have largely abandoned their own.
Doors moving Inland to the hillsand forests where it is harder
for the slavers to find them. Thus the fine handicrafts
shimmering silks and delicate spiced wines of the Isle of
butterflies are seen less and less in the markets of the Seven

(01:24:16):
Kingdoms and the nine free cities.
So again, this points to the valyrians being more Savvy about
this clearly, they were not inflicting this level of slavery
and Devastation. I'm not giving them credit for
being good guys. Obviously, they're still a
country run on slavery and they were probably still taking some
nathi. Slaves just not to this degree.

(01:24:38):
So degree of cynicism is warranted here.
They just saw it as an opportunity like an accounting
problem. Like what's the maximum amount
of harm we can inflict without damaging the industries?
We value even more. So they want to get the most
amount of slaves and the most amount of wine and silk and all
that other stuff they were Probably just more Savvy about

(01:25:00):
it, where these different pirateenclaves, just more like Smash
and grab operations. I mean, those shimmering silks
that are described. I mean, these these might be,
literally the finest in the world, it's entirely possible,
which you could understand. Given the value of silk in the
real world, I mean the Silk Road, I was joking before about

(01:25:21):
the Silk Road website but that of course was named after the
real Silk Road, a thing that ranfrom China, all the way to
effectively to Europe through the Middle East and Arabia.
And they Jealously and fiercely protected the secret of making

(01:25:43):
silk like you could not sneak a silk or Mountain, they would
search you like every inch of your body if you were leaving
and they're like suspected you of having a silkworm like one
guy's mobile them out of a, in acane or something like that.
Finally. And yeah.
Like this is it's so valuable. So I mean it's the clothing of
the elite. Right.

(01:26:06):
The thing that rich people are willing to pay the The most for
the top of the Heap for clothingin the entire world.
And it's probably true for this world as well.
So you, if you're imagining, howmuch it costs aim higher because
we're not like talking to find asubstance.
We're talking with the finest version of the finest substance.

(01:26:26):
It's like not just silk, but thebest silk.
Yeah, you know how they love to show off.
They get to because not, it's not just having it.
It's being able to show it off to everybody else thing.
Like I've got naughty, silk you So much of it like oh he's got
another rich. People would know what that
means, you know, like oh not these silk, they know exactly
how expensive that is. Yeah.
So it wouldn't be as fancy to other people.

(01:26:48):
I don't know. They're not in the market for
silk. There's like rich people talking
about their best, their favoritewatches.
Like I don't know, what the hellyou're talking about, I don't
know which ones are fancier thanothers.
Something to be said for both the scarcity in addition to help
find it is but the scarcity but you know adds to the value.
Yeah. And the how to say it the the

(01:27:09):
risk involved, right? That the fact that lives are
lost or potentially lost to get this one, makes it actually more
rare but also makes it more of astory.
More of a Prestige thing to have, you know.
Yeah. So it's almost like it's almost
a joke or an irony if we could return to Jorah explaining to

(01:27:30):
Danny why the Dothraki don't destroy the slaves.
He's like he's like, well then they wouldn't have a place to
sell their slaves. So Danny's like no place to sell
your slaves. Say he's like that's a that
sounds like a good thing you know, she's like, oh maybe
that's the path that we should be taking here.
So it's almost like George is telling her why doesn't work and
to her it's like a blueprint. It's or foreshadowing if you

(01:27:51):
want to see if you want to imagine that, Danny will smash
the slave trade, which I think alot of us are really hoping for
that would be great, the very heroic, I mean, mad the
fist-pumping we would get. I mean it as awesome as it was
when she freed those unsullied and pulled that trick like that
was like 9,000 people because yeah 8000.
So like with some of the Youngerones and then bringing the city
itself beyond that. So it did extend extend beyond

(01:28:13):
them, but imagine that on a muchlarger scale.
So yeah, it's a thing to root for But yeah, she might be
willing to smash the entire herewith.
She's like, well, I'll smash every slave market.
If I got a break every single one, then I'll do that.
Let's talk about some specific characters.
There's not many, but we do havea few missandei, of course, is
the first one that comes to mind.

(01:28:33):
But honestly there's enough about her especially mixing
theories which we of course would do.
Well do an episode on her stand alone.
One day just real quickly thoughbook for show.
Missandei is one of the bigger changes Michelle met Her role as
Danny's close Confidant and kindof made it kind of made her.
Her only close Confidant, it wasthe law of conservation of
characters in essence, they're in effect, full effect.

(01:28:57):
I got rid of Erie and G key and the blood Riders and everyone
you know, except for joram barristan who also kind of died
and weren't there. So yeah missandei was by far the
top. I mean Grey Worm to I guess to a
lesser extent but missandei was way number one there and
Michelle. Yeah missandei is like book
version which obviously we care about way.

(01:29:17):
More is about the same age as Arya and Shireen the for
comparison. Five years younger than Danny
roughly, by the way about the same age as egg for Anna Duncan
- oh yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, that's a good point.
We get at least when we first meet a big, you know, so yeah,
see you later. Older versions of egg down the
line, but we got a pretty brutalexample of nature versus

(01:29:40):
nurture. When we learned that missandei
had three. Brothers, most likely, they were
all captured at the same time may be from the same Village.
There may have been some other people from her Village that
were all captured like with thembecause of what it says, they
target individual Villages, and try to get out as quickly as
possible because they're aware of the butterfly fever.
So, It makes sense that she was captured alongside people, she

(01:30:03):
knew. So she's ten now as we said, and
her brothers were older than her.
And we know that that unsullied training starts as young as five
and that they're fully trained now and it takes several years.
So that gives you a little bit of an idea of the timeline here.
One of them died in that training to be unsullied.
The other two made it through which it's a it's an odd

(01:30:25):
conundrum. Like on one hand, they're
supposedly really easy, obedientbut they're also really
peaceful. And it's one of their few, like
overarching values as a, as a people because As you can
understand why they might be coerced or argued into, or
forced into doing things, but they won't even defend
themselves. Like, that's something that's

(01:30:46):
not a passive thing. You have to You know, you have
to work at is almost like, takesbravery to be that dedicated to
pacifism, you know, I mean, not almost it does, but it's just a
different mindset. It's hard to maybe you can frame
it differently and maybe even lack the words or certainly
perspective to explain it properly.

(01:31:07):
But I think you kind of see where I'm coming from at least
two. We somewhat Still will be.
I feel like they were probably young enough to not fully had
the that cultural ideal ingrained in them yet.
You know, even if it was, it would get overridden by the type
of training and mutilation and everything else that came with

(01:31:30):
slavery and the in solely. Yeah.
So given that they're freed, it's interesting to see some
small differences, it's real under the radar stuff.
I think with the unsullied lot of has yet to play out and I
think we'll see more of it show.Just didn't delve into it.
Much at all, which is not surprising.
But both of the brothers Grey Worm takes the name Grey Worm,

(01:31:50):
he's like, that's the name I hadon the day.
You freed me and that's very symbolic to me.
It's got a lot of meaning, but both of Masson Days Brothers,
take their given names back. They return to their original
names which says a little something to me.
And I leaving as, you know, there's a little bit of
connection at least, at least a little bit of connection to
their Heritage, to their origin.And that makes a little sense.

(01:32:12):
Me as well because they're olderthan missandei.
They would have more memories oftheir upbringing of their home,
you know, unfortunately, Masjid or one of the two brothers was
killed by the sons of the harpy,amongst those mini, you
terroristic murders that were happening.
Before she married his daughter,he was crushed by Falling
stones. And here's a quote, He taught me

(01:32:35):
how to climb a tree when we werelittle.
He could catch fish with his hands.
Once I found him sleeping in ourgarden with 100 butterflies.
Crawling over him. He looked so beautiful that
morning this one. I mean, I loved him.
So catching fish is an interesting little tidbit there

(01:32:58):
because they don't eat flesh. Is he just catching them for fun
or they basket Aryan maybe? Oh yeah, yeah maybe they are
past. This area but maybe he has just
catching them for fun. Yeah, just to stash it just for
practice, just for agility and he lets them go afterwards,
okay. That's kind of where my head.
Canon is going on. I don't know.
This isn't like, that's meat. I mean, you don't know why I
like to think she's mainly fresh, you know, they so yeah.

(01:33:20):
And that, you're right. They say Flash, not meet never
said. I mean, technically, you could
call the, for the Flesh of a fruit is flesh.
Some people call that flash? I don't know.
But also, I wonder their stance on pets.
Okay. Yeah, they can maybe stock a
little ponds with fish as pets or something like that.
Okay. Or to free.
The maybe they were caught in a tide pool and they read them and

(01:33:42):
put them back in the ocean, something like that.
This character Masa door was named in the song characters.
We don't know by the band Danny and the targaryens love them.
Are you going to sing this for us is?
He's okay, sure. Okay.
Here's a line here's how the song goes it's conveniently in
the first verse of the song. I'm a big fan of Game of

(01:34:04):
Thrones, but there's so many characters, I don't know.
So listen up, as you drink your beer, here's a tribute for all
to hear. There's a little guy who can be
seen by Khaleesi out an old Marine looks like Grey Worm
slightly bald must adore is whathe's called.
Beautiful singing. You can hear that song on

(01:34:26):
Spotify if you want I'm sure it's available in other places
like YouTube but that's certainly where I reminded
myself of the lyrics. It's worth checking out all of
the Danny and Targaryen songs. I think they have at least two
albums, right? They have two Studio albums in a
live album. This is from the living room.
Yeah. Yeah.
They're great. We see in the mirror, they're
very good. Yes.
Absolutely three. Thumbs up from us or 67,

(01:34:57):
magically Sean's door, opens andRita's, hand pops.
So Marcel in is the other surviving of the Sunday's
Brothers. Three companies of Friedman
sellswords effectively, but not really sellswords because he's,

(01:35:18):
they have sworn themselves to Danny formed in the wake of the
fall of marine and her friend the unsullied.
Marcel n' isn't a nun solid anymore, he left clearly because
he's now leading this company ofFriedman.
So that's really interesting, isanother sign of reclaiming, his
individuality a little bit different than Grey Worm, but

(01:35:40):
still similar because he still dedicated to Danny.
I mean, the group is called the mothers men.
And obviously, that's my mother and references her.
So, but also another example of their Excellence.
He's a little bit more of his, he retains little bit more of
his individuality, maybe, and he's named captain.
He's elected Captain like they nominate him.
So another outstanding figure from nathe maybe for story

(01:36:05):
reasons but well cynical to say perhaps.
But again there's maybe that's why the the slavers like the
Matthew so much. There it really are Works.
May be exceptionally talented orjust better at stuff for some
reason. And again referring to the fact
that they tend to raid whole Villages and things like that.
Probably other not the Monks the8,000 unsullied, it's probably a

(01:36:28):
few other survivors hard to imagine that nasaan Days
Brothers are the only ones that made it through training.
Maybe some of them are in that same company, maybe some of them
will get names later or get referred to.
Because if this one's becoming alittle more individual, why not
a few others, you know, George doesn't stint on the side
characters, as we know and I think there's a little more

(01:36:51):
opportunity as the unsullied andthe farmer unsullied.
Go to Westeros and have more interactions with westerosi.
There's more, there's no definitely more opportunity for
Some of these personalities to emerge.
I appreciate that. You said if this one is becoming
a little bit more individual? Yes, that's right.

(01:37:13):
I'm trying to speak like she's supposed to break that habit.
If I'm so the unsullied worship.The lady of Spears as we refer
to in the trivia. Question at the beginning, they
refused to speak of much to Outsiders know.
I wonder How does this work withtheir religion?
Now, is this, another example ofsyncretism?
The naafi, see the Lord of Harmony as the one true God.

(01:37:36):
But the nathi, who are unsulliednow, also worship the lady of
Spears. So it's not a, I'm not
criticizing, obviously, there's tons of syncretism and real
world, and in this planet, but Iwonder how they You sort that
out in their minds of Spears is just one of the butterfly women
to the Lord of Harmony and very pointy Wings.

(01:37:58):
By the spears are like the design on the wings.
That would look really cool lady's face with with spear-like
protrude rinses designs. It's pretty cool.
Someone commission Center exeunt.
Oh yeah, yeah, it's a bullet with butterfly wings.
Is that Smashing Pumpkins on have a spear with Butterfly
Wings. But Marcel and should have a

(01:38:20):
role going forward. I'm, he's a commander of one of
these three free companies and Danny's leading all these people
to Westeros to face the others, in the whites and other
westerosi armies. We definitely haven't heard the
last from this character. I do think his role is, you
know, I don't think it'll be bigrole, but it'll matter,
especially considering Danny's relationship with missandei so

(01:38:41):
important. And thus, her the fate of her
brother, will matter a lot to her, you know, there, whatever.
Feels is going to matter and we may even see a scene with them
together missandei and Marcel and that'd be cool.
Well it could be cool. It might be like, sad.
I still want. I'm optimistic that I would
enjoy such a scene. You know, let's have that George

(01:39:02):
shall we? So just some final thoughts
here. The show made this really
humorously sick joke that I don't even think they were aware
of when they're like Grey Worm is going to go to NASA at the
end. Remember?
Being like wait no don't do thislaughing.
Picturing like, okay, well, thisis now a perfect setup for like,
a 2 hour hour-and-a-half horror movie seemingly idyllic place

(01:39:29):
and he's like, wanted to investigate my Sunday's family,
and like, yeah. Anyways, it can actually be very
good but no. I do not think they did that on
purpose. Yeah, I don't either it.
Certainly did create some fodderfor jokes, but yeah, I really
don't think the books will go there.
It's one of the most Most. It's one of the locations we can
be. Most sure we won't see.

(01:39:51):
Even you know, as if there was like a bin lorath with like
yeah, there's just we're not going there, maybe in some
future production, but not in A Song of Ice and Fire.
But maybe, you know, missandei says, she's going to go back,
but what about Marcel? Maybe he does, maybe he does
want to go back, you know, I mean, if that I will say, if the
nymeria show of the rhoynar showactually happens, there's our,
we would see it. That's the first place we would

(01:40:12):
see it on screen. You are so right?
But that requires that show being made and I'm actually
going to all the places they go to.
There's a lot, a lot stopping that, but when you heard it from
Asha folks, pray harder for the nymeria show.
But yeah, like what do you even fit in?
Like, the people are so peacefuland he's been trained as an
unsullied. I don't know.
I mean you could he could you could find find peace again but
that's a hard to undo all that, you know, it would be a

(01:40:35):
challenge but worth a worthy challenge or maybe he'll just
die fighting the others in the north.
You know, that would be not unexpected fate for any
character in this series. But if he does survive, he could
be a part of that, you know, thedream of spring, whatever that
means. So if Danny dies, I don't know.

(01:40:55):
And it seems pretty likely, but I'm doubtful that both Marcel
and missandei dies. Well, maybe all three of them
will but it and if they do therestill, could be a happy ending
for her people for the naughty people.
Let's say there is someone that survives of those three Marcel
enormous on day more likely thanDanny probably, they could be

(01:41:15):
part of the proceedings during adream of spring.
The various episodic are pelagicepilogue.
If I'm going to use that word, it's a good words to wrap up.
Various the so many plot threads, that would be one way
to, to have someone from Nathan and just to have them have a
conversation with one of the povs like A2 liner.
Just to get us some closure. But we could also learn as part

(01:41:38):
of this or something entirely separate and it's kind of my
hope that even as Danny is saving Westeros from maybe the
world from the other. She also saves the naughty
people or help them restore their, at least their trade
economy, and their ability to live.
In Greater Peace by Smashing theslave trade.
Like, if he smashes it thoroughly enough, it'll really

(01:41:58):
help the Nazi people. Even the ones, you know, the
ones that she's never met. Just the their people as a whole
would be really helped by that. The Basilisk Isles, could still
be a problem, but if you smashestheir Market places, the places
they sell their slaves, that would that be a huge gift to her
to? That's it at people that we
could infer or if not get directevidence of from the text.

(01:42:21):
It would be a good way to conveya lot if we had a scene where
the Nazi people were establishing a village on the
coast. Hmm.
And that would like tell us thatthe slave trade isn't a threat
anymore. You know?
Yeah. It would be very much like the
little bit of greenery growing north of the wall because kind
of a symbol just like I just onelittle bit would show that's the

(01:42:41):
symbol of more to come. You're right.
That's it. That's a great way if you're
filming it, that's how you do it.
I think that's a great way. Yeah, you're great call Shawn.
And if we think about it in terms of winter, I mean it's one
of the least likely We places tobe impacted by winter.
It could almost be a refuge if not for the butterflies.
Again, those turn flutterflies aglobal long, that would surely
be a problem. Again, I wonder if they would

(01:43:02):
have ancestral memory of that, from some long time gone or
record of it somehow, maybe theyhave songs like the rhoynar.
But it's interesting to considerthat it could be, it will be a
refuge at least for them. They wouldn't be as impacted by
it. So I'm pretty optimistic about
their future, even as I'm not asoptimistic about so many other
things. So many other characters, you

(01:43:22):
know what, I want to sit down and look at it, I think.
Yeah. You know, things are probably
better for them, because I thinka lot of the things that are
making their lives, hard are going to be severely damaged if
not outright destroyed by the actions of Daenerys.
Caesars for things, get better for them when they're not that
ambitious in the first place, you know, they're not like this

(01:43:44):
great Empire. That is going to fall, they're
just content community that wants to maintain.
So it only takes people to stop being violent toward them for it
to get better, right? It doesn't require some massive
bun or some huge Stroke of Luck or some discovery of gold, or

(01:44:04):
anything else. To just all they need is for
people to not violently attack them.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like what Jorah said
to Danny, you know? Peasants want to be the
commoners, want to be left aloneyou know you high Lords, play
your game of thrones like this is like an if entire people
represented that concept right? And but people don't leave them

(01:44:26):
alone. Yeah.
Because people keep playing thatgame of thrones.
Even if it's just in this case, maybe it's more about wealth and
power. But as we know those two things
are tied together an extremely and that's our episode, folks,
the trivia question let's get tothat, shall we?
The question again was what are the other nicknames or Or
monikers for the lady of Spears and the answers Our Lady of

(01:44:50):
Spears. Right of battle mother of hosts
three names same figure that's right.
Next week is the Ned ucation episode and we'll be continuing
from there with more episodes. Of course we rarely stop.
We only occasionally, take a break.
Hmm. Episodes we mentioned along the

(01:45:13):
way that you might turn to, for further immersion, the Basilisk
Isles, episode fairly, recent one, like a gossip dose, patreon
/. Bonus episode is out there as
well. As well as the Valar reread this
episode on the children of the forest, which contained some
references to this things that we discussed in this one as

(01:45:34):
well. Not to mention Valerie, Rita's
for A Dance with Dragons and A Storm of Swords and we're very
chapters are featured Oh yes. Nymeria of course you're right.
Good catch a almost forgot that one.
I'm hearing everything I'm area.No she never would never would.
I'm here is like Dre, thanks to all of you who support us on

(01:45:56):
patreon or Spotify, or recurringdonations on PayPal or just with
a one-time donation from time totime.
That works as well. Thank you too.
Joey. Jesse and bran for help with our
music and video intro. As well as Michael car failed
for that. And this awesome map.
You see behind me and other Mapsyou've seen behind me on

(01:46:17):
different days. Those are pretty much all
Michael car failed. His sight is Claire Doc's, dot
d, e. You can get stuff like that from
him directly. and until next time, You can catch us again for
more and you know what to do? Until then Valar reread us.

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