CBS News legal analyst Thane Rosenbaum joins Jack Armstrong to get us up-to-speed on the pending TikTok deal between the Chinese government and a consortium of US companies.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode Transcript
Okay, we would like to welcome Thine Rosenbaum to the show.
Now CBS News Legal Aus So what is going on
with TikTok? Is it going to exist in the United States?
And is it going to be the same algorithm so jacket.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
We won't know for another ninety days.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
This is now the fourth attempt to stave off forcing
TikTok to end operations in the United States. Remember this
started with legislation during the Biden administration that essentially had
a you know, we're not interested in social media companies
that mine data of Americans that come from putative enemies
(00:36):
of ours, and that there was no sufficient insulation or
Chinese wall, so to speak, between the Chinese government and TikTok.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
That's a reasonable stance in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Yeah, yeah, and the TikTok's epic we're not really owned
by Chinese and so there became a fight about that
when in fact Bike Dance did have relationships with the
Chinese government, and it's not as if they could refuse
a request.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
You know, it's like the Chinese government.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Is like the Godfather, you don't the request. So if
they had asked for something, they would have said yes.
So the Biden administration said, look, you know, you either
sell yourself to an independent corporation or you you shut
down in your operations. And I said, you want to
do whatever you do in Europe, that's fine, but not here.
Donald Trump, you know, said, well wait a minute. I
(01:27):
think I won this election in part because there's TikTok.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Probably, you know, it rallied an audience that I didn't
really even have the last time, and.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Everyone seems to have it, and there are an enormous
amount of it's not just apparently I wouldn't know this, Jack,
but apparently it's not just images of people dancing with
their cats. There are, in fact, small businesses all over
the United States that depend on TikTok is their main
marketing technique. So there was a movement among American businesses
(01:57):
they said, well, wait a minute, we're a small business.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
This is how we could be. We need to tuck.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
So Donald Trump signed a series of executive orders, just
one the other day that extended the time period for
either shutting down or selling. And he claims that he
knows of a consortium of venture capital companies, private equity,
and tech companies, including Oracle and as you know, Larry
(02:25):
Ellison has just his wealth has increased enormously, and I
think he's interested in this too, So he apparently is
part of this consortium.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
And the argument is.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
That, well, we need we have to add a board
of director, someone on the board of director who has
some American affiliation.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
That's a requirement, and.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Will extend the deadline for ninety days, hoping that the
consortium can pull together the funds and meet with the
regulatory approval that this no longer presents a national security
risks in the United States.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
So, uh, do you have TikTok on your phone? No?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Me, neither, and I can't I vaguely know what it is.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
But but Jack, Jack, if you'll remember you had trouble
calling me.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Yeah, well I didn't personally.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
But obviously right saying no, I'm blaming myself obviously since
I don't have TikTok.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I don't even know how to use a phone, apparently,
so I'm not and I'm not the right guy.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Do you not have TikTok because you're worried it's a
Chinese data harvesting tool?
Speaker 4 (03:41):
No, not really, you're just not interested in social media.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I'm I'm a.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Writer by by trade, and I just don't live in
a world where everything has to be visual.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And I worked for CBS Radio.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I don't, you know, I don't I don't focus. I
don't need videos all day to keep me entertained.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, and I understand completely. The only reason I ever
got Instagram, which was fairly recently, is it's kind of
a marketing tool for the show. But yeah, but we've
had the stats before, and you've probably seen them of
how many hours a day young people spend on TikTok.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
I mean, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
They almost seem made up, but I assume they're true
because I've seen study after study say that, you know,
it's five hours for this group or seven hours for
that group.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
I don't even know how that's possible.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
But it's even worse than that, Jack, because if they
were just watching videos of people dancing with their cats,
that would be one thing, it would be it would
be stupid as all get out. But if that's how
you're if that's how you want your kid to spend
your day with another cat that's dancing. Fine. But what
we're really learning, which is really distressing, and it raises
(04:46):
First Amendment issues and other regulatory issues is that most
young people get their news from TikTok. Yeah, so that's
where it's worse than being entertained by silly videos. It's
that algorithm that can easily be manipulated. Are tailor making
a news seeds. They tailor it for certain age groups,
(05:08):
for certain sensibilities, perspectives, where they live, you know, whatever information.
So that's really what national security means. It doesn't necessarily
mean a bomb is going to go off.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
It means that you're going to mind data that tells.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
You everything you need to know about America, where we're vulnerable,
what kind of stuff we believe in, How easy it
is to manipulate us.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Just give us a video or shade news stories a
certain direction that's in your favor.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Exactly right as I'm saying about, you know, tailoring news
seeds or blocking.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
News seeds, for instance, make sure that Jack Armstrong never
sees a story.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
About this, right, he.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Cannot see a story about this, because he's the kind
of guy that will it'll, it'll, he'll talk about it
on a show. So you're saying, that's the kind of manipulation,
and you know, remember the social media companies are protect
acted the government doesn't can't interfere with their First Amendment rights.
So if it TikTok is an American company, if it
(06:07):
becomes one, the government really can't regulate it because they're saying, look,
we have First Amendment rights. We're essentially like a newspaper.
You can't tell us what's to publish.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Or what not the public.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Right, my final question, you're the CBS News legal analyst
put on a quote. So CNBC reported the other day
that the algorithm was going to that the for the
for the deal to happen, it was going to have
to be a different algorithm. Then I think it was
a Wall Street Journal reported that, though is going to
be the same algorithm. Well, that's a pretty big difference,
because if it's a different algorithm, it's you can call
(06:39):
it TikTok, but it's not the same thing. And from
what I understand from people who love TikTok, it's all
about that amazing algorithm that can predict, predict what you
want to be entertained by.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah, I mean, that's that's the problem, the algorithm. Although
I read somewhere else that they're saying, well nowadays, at
the time that this legislation was created, you know, algorithm
were impenetrable and could never be done. And apparently that's
no longer true. You know, we've cracked the code and
people can actually duplicate it themselves.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
That doesn't change the.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Fact that we don't obligate social media companies or internet
companies to tell balanced stories. It doesn't, you know, it
doesn't change the fact that, you know, should we be regulating,
should there be subject to the f E, FCC and
other regulations. You know, there used to be something called
probably way too young for this jack the fairness doctrine,
(07:34):
which ended, i think in the late eighties, where if
you had a license for broadcasting NBC, ABC, CBS, you
had to present controversial views and you had to present
other views so that it was more balanced.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
They got rid of that.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So that's why when I was a kid and Walter
Cronkite was the anchor for CBS News and a third
of the country or half of the country who was
watching him, No one knew if he was a democreder,
a Republican. You had no way of knowing. That was
a different time. Now it's clear the politics is on
your sleeve, no matter who you are. We tell you upfront,
and we protect you from differing opinions.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So I got one question, is this is a Thane
Rosenbaum question. So TikTok is beneath you? Is our chat
bots beneath you to use chat, GPT and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Not yet, not yet good for you.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, I'm not saying I'm not saying that I won't.
But you know, I'm a writer and a novelist, and
that stuff scares me.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I'll get my car.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I am currently reading Ulysses and I'm forty percent of
the way through. I'm fighting my way through that book.
So to give myself some credibility in your world, the
higher thinking world.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
You really impressed the hell out of me. Jack.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
You're the only radio guy that I've talked to in
ye who says anything like that.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Joice is something you're reading.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Rosenbom, CBS News legal analyist, Thanks for your time today.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Thank you, Jack.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
I liked his personality. Entertaining guy. Okay, we've got more
on the way. Stay here, Armstrong and Getty
Hosts And Creators
Joe Getty
Jack Armstrong
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.