Josh Rogin joined A&G to discuss Blinken's recent visit with China. China is showing all the signs that improving relations with US isn't at the top of the priority list.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In two days of talks. Blincoln's main goal was to
persuade Chinese officials to resume contact between the two militaries,
cut off since August last year.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's less a hotline and more regular engagement, regular communication
so that they understand what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
And not doing.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
But she did not agree US sanctions on China's defense
minister were an excuse for why he refused his phone calls.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Yeah. So the condundrum to me is, if you got
a guy who wants to fight you, you don't want
to fight, how do you dictate any terms whatsoever? Aren't
you in a constant state of retreat to try to
avoid the fight, and he gets to set the pace
of everything.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Unless you can say confidently, I will fight you, and
I will beat you badly.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Yeah, fighting me would be a really bad idea. That's
about the only hope you got.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
So many story is subplots involving China going on right now.
And who better to talk to than one of our
favorite journalists, Josh Rogan, Global opinions calumnist for the Washington Post,
also a political analyst with CNN. Josh Rogan, how are you, sir?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Great? Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Where do you absolutely our pleasure? Where do you see
things as they stand right now? Have we accomplished anything
at this point?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah? You know, I think frankly, your opening was like
refreshingly honest and accurate in a sea of horrendous media
coverage of this blinking visit, you know, which is all
centated around the question which you answered amazingly to be honest,
which is like, wait, why are we doing this? What
do we hope to accomplish? And how is it that
(01:38):
the most important thing for our Secretary of State China
policy is getting China to take pick up the phone.
That's the most important thing. And how do we understand
the fact that the Chinese government says they want communication
and dialogue and peace and cooperation and mutual respect and
when when solutions and to avoid the Well that's what
(02:00):
they say. But then when we're like, hey, do you
want to have a phone line, They're like, no, sorry,
we can't go that far. You know, it's it's it's ridiculous.
We're in this ridiculous moment in our culture, in our
society where everyone is telling us listen, we really got
to make nice with China, which would be great and
We never stopped to think even for one second that
(02:21):
question that you asked, which is like, what if they
don't want that, what if they're not interested in what
if they're lying you know what I mean, what if
they're to be sure, they don't trust us. We don't
trust them. We've given them reasons not to trust us.
They've given us reasons not to trust them. Sure, but
the buying administrations sent the secretary stayed over there and
they you know, patted him on the head and sent
(02:42):
them packing. That's what happened. And he was like, Hey,
can we just get a phone line set up, you know,
to avoid that conflict that you say you don't want.
They're like, nah, so that could tell you everything you
need to know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, The difference between actions and words comes to mind.
So we were discussing briefly earlier, Josh, the idea that
China has this strategy, very long term strategy, to dominate
the globe, including the United States, and there's really nothing
we can do outside of the threat of force to
dissuade them. I mean, we get together for these meetings,
they might change their tactics, but not their strategy.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Would you agree, Yeah, and not only that it's not
just a military strategy, like we're always talking about the
South China Sea or what if we go to war
with Taiwan. But that's important, but that's only one thing.
You know. The Chinese strategy is economic and ideological and technological.
And you know, they want to sort of take over
all the UN bodies so that they can turn them
(03:36):
into anti human rights organizations. And then they want to
you know, tell us to go pound stand when it
comes to unfair trade practices, and you know, they're using
economic coersion all over the region and all these countries
are looking to us like what do you got you
have anything to contend with this? And you know that
I think, you know, right, we can't change China. The
hubris that comes from Washington is like, oh, we can
(03:58):
make them to be like us, you know. And that's
what I think we need to realize is that they're
not going to become like us. They're gonna China's going
to develop in its own way, for better or worse.
But here's the good news, if there is any There
are a lot of other countries who do want to
help us. And there are a lot of countries, especially
in Asia, who share our concerns. And this is why
I like when you hear which you hear. I hear
(04:20):
a lot of recently, Oh those Washington China hawks. Oh man,
they're getting too you know, there's too much group thing
and consensus that China's bad and you know, you know
that's going to start the war or something like that.
You would in order to believe that crap, you would
have to ignore the fact that there's all these other
countries in the world who's facing the same problem as
we are. And when you think about China's rise, it
(04:42):
will be the biggest richest country with the biggest economy
and the probably the biggest you know, like that'll that's
gonna happen. But if we join with I don't know
the number three one, which is Japan, or the number
four one, which is you could all of a sudden
we get the advantage again. So I think that's really
where we should focus our efforts.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Interesting, So, a couple of weeks ago, the administration was
forced to admit news reports that China was putting spying
apparatus in Cuba. And now we have this story today.
I think it's in the Wall Street Journal that there
is talk of some sort of base or training exercises
between China and Cuban Cuba, which could include Chinese troops
(05:22):
in Cuba. How big a deal is.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
This, right, It's like, oh, man, don't compare this to
the Cold War. But wait, they're putting military basic Cuba.
It's like, all right, well it's not exactly the Cold War,
but you know, there's a couple of things that are
like kind of remind me of it a little bit, right,
you know, and not to mention, you know, the Gulags
and the communism and the military expansion and the repression
(05:44):
and all that stuff. But I mean, you know, the
funny thing about the Biden people is that, you know,
anytime they're they're trying to be nice to Beijing, they
just don't They don't want any bad news with the
They just deny it as a matter of course. Oh
what about the Chinese basic Cubit No, oh we never
saw it. I don't know. And they're like, oh, but
here it is like, oh, well, that wasn't us. That
was the Trump administration. They dropped the ball of that,
(06:06):
And it's not that bad anyway. It's not a spy base.
It's a base that can spy That's what I was like.
They were like, they're like, it doesn't exist. The like, okay,
it does exist, but it's not a spy base. It's
just a base. And yeah, sure there are spies there,
but that's not the main point of the base. It's
really more about you know, you know, planting turn uffs.
So you know what I mean. This is the kind
(06:27):
of nonsense that they spend their time in meetings in
the National Security Council and like you can imagine, like
dozens of emails I am back and forth or like, oh,
can we say it's a base that spies. Oh yeah,
that'll work. Let's let's run with that. Okay, you send
that up to you know what I mean, This is
what our leaders spend their time worrying about.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Okay, Josh Joshu Oagan, global opinions calumnist for the Washington
Post is Online. Sorry, Josh, go ahead finish your thought.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
No, I'm just gonna say, but I don't know, I
forget what I say. Let's go on to the next question.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I interrupted. It was rude, it was untoward, and I
apologize for it.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
We gotta keep the show moving, I get it. We
got a lot to guess him well.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And you know, I actually Jack went on a rant
earlier about how we were the beggar, We were on
our knees begging China for favors and they were telling
us to go to hell. And I accused him of
being a jingoist and out of his mind and the
rest of it. But boy, judging by your description, that
seems to be the dynamic. But in the fairly limited
time we have, what have we learned recently about the
(07:23):
origins of COVID nineteen. How solid is the evidence.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Right right? By the way, I don't think this necessarily
means that he's not out of his mind, by the.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Way, you all right, right, but sometimes when you're paranoid,
they are after you, you know, as the.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Old saying goes, right, But you know, listen, the evidence
keeps mounting that they're probably likely, very likely, definitely probably.
There was some relation between the outbreak of a back
coronavirus that infects humans with the lab in Wuhan next
to the outbreak that was studying the back coronaviruses that
effect human colored me shocked. But and like you know,
(08:01):
like you know, you know, damn those people who you know,
refuse to release this information for three years while people
died and then and people were silent and all that stuff.
You know what I mean. It's a real crime. The
cover up is the crime here. And the Chinese have
been covering up the labs since day one, and we
never asked, well, why are they covering up the labs?
If the labs are innocent, why are they going? Doesn't
make any sick? So, you know, I think, like now,
(08:24):
the evidence is piling up, and I think the pressure's
on the Biden administration to release the rest of it.
They're sitting on the proof. They have it. We don't
need to go to China, we don't need to break
into the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The proof is in
the Biden's hands and all he has to do is
release it, as the law requires him to do. But
I don't think they're going to do it for the
reasons we just discussed. Because it's going to disrupt his
delegate friendship was Jujuing King. That's a tragedy.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Well, and I'm the opposite of a conspiracy theorist. I
approach virtually everything with a great deal of skepticism. But
the evidence seems so clear to me that US funding
was intimately involved in the Wuhan Institute. Anthony Fauci, Peter Dazak,
EcoHealth Alliance, all of them were in bed with that
lab and they have been desperate to cover up their
(09:07):
culpability for the deaths of millions of people. Agreed, disagree halfway?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
What listen, I don't. It's not that we funded the
research that started the pandemic, that we built the whole
laboratory that then took that laboratory and joined it with
the Chinese military, and that's where you know, the problem
likely happened. So we're indirectly responsible. And I say we
all of our whole system, which was thought that we
could just engage China and work with these nice Chinese
(09:34):
scientists and help them play around with that coronaviruses and
everything would be hunky dory. All right, That's a nationwide,
government wide failure that we refuse to acknowledge. But I
think that, Yeah, I think increasingly the jig is up.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
All right, Appreciate your time, man, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Josh Rogan of The Washington Post, Josh, it's always stimulating.
Come on again soon, would you anytime?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
All right?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Thanks,
In two days of talks. Blincoln's main goal was to
persuade Chinese officials to resume contact between the two militaries,
cut off since August last year.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's less a hotline and more regular engagement, regular communication
so that they understand what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
And not doing.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
But she did not agree US sanctions on China's defense
minister were an excuse for why he refused his phone calls.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Yeah. So the condundrum to me is, if you got
a guy who wants to fight you, you don't want
to fight, how do you dictate any terms whatsoever? Aren't
you in a constant state of retreat to try to
avoid the fight, and he gets to set the pace
of everything.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Unless you can say confidently, I will fight you, and
I will beat you badly.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Yeah, fighting me would be a really bad idea. That's
about the only hope you got.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
So many story is subplots involving China going on right now.
And who better to talk to than one of our
favorite journalists, Josh Rogan, Global opinions calumnist for the Washington Post,
also a political analyst with CNN. Josh Rogan, how are you, sir?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Great? Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Where do you absolutely our pleasure? Where do you see
things as they stand right now? Have we accomplished anything
at this point?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah? You know, I think frankly, your opening was like
refreshingly honest and accurate in a sea of horrendous media
coverage of this blinking visit, you know, which is all
centated around the question which you answered amazingly to be honest,
which is like, wait, why are we doing this? What
do we hope to accomplish? And how is it that
(01:38):
the most important thing for our Secretary of State China
policy is getting China to take pick up the phone.
That's the most important thing. And how do we understand
the fact that the Chinese government says they want communication
and dialogue and peace and cooperation and mutual respect and
when when solutions and to avoid the Well that's what
(02:00):
they say. But then when we're like, hey, do you
want to have a phone line, They're like, no, sorry,
we can't go that far. You know, it's it's it's ridiculous.
We're in this ridiculous moment in our culture, in our
society where everyone is telling us listen, we really got
to make nice with China, which would be great and
We never stopped to think even for one second that
(02:21):
question that you asked, which is like, what if they
don't want that, what if they're not interested in what
if they're lying you know what I mean, what if
they're to be sure, they don't trust us. We don't
trust them. We've given them reasons not to trust us.
They've given us reasons not to trust them. Sure, but
the buying administrations sent the secretary stayed over there and
they you know, patted him on the head and sent
(02:42):
them packing. That's what happened. And he was like, Hey,
can we just get a phone line set up, you know,
to avoid that conflict that you say you don't want.
They're like, nah, so that could tell you everything you
need to know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, The difference between actions and words comes to mind.
So we were discussing briefly earlier, Josh, the idea that
China has this strategy, very long term strategy, to dominate
the globe, including the United States, and there's really nothing
we can do outside of the threat of force to
dissuade them. I mean, we get together for these meetings,
they might change their tactics, but not their strategy.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Would you agree, Yeah, and not only that it's not
just a military strategy, like we're always talking about the
South China Sea or what if we go to war
with Taiwan. But that's important, but that's only one thing.
You know. The Chinese strategy is economic and ideological and technological.
And you know, they want to sort of take over
all the UN bodies so that they can turn them
(03:36):
into anti human rights organizations. And then they want to
you know, tell us to go pound stand when it
comes to unfair trade practices, and you know, they're using
economic coersion all over the region and all these countries
are looking to us like what do you got you
have anything to contend with this? And you know that
I think, you know, right, we can't change China. The
hubris that comes from Washington is like, oh, we can
(03:58):
make them to be like us, you know. And that's
what I think we need to realize is that they're
not going to become like us. They're gonna China's going
to develop in its own way, for better or worse.
But here's the good news, if there is any There
are a lot of other countries who do want to
help us. And there are a lot of countries, especially
in Asia, who share our concerns. And this is why
I like when you hear which you hear. I hear
(04:20):
a lot of recently, Oh those Washington China hawks. Oh man,
they're getting too you know, there's too much group thing
and consensus that China's bad and you know, you know
that's going to start the war or something like that.
You would in order to believe that crap, you would
have to ignore the fact that there's all these other
countries in the world who's facing the same problem as
we are. And when you think about China's rise, it
(04:42):
will be the biggest richest country with the biggest economy
and the probably the biggest you know, like that'll that's
gonna happen. But if we join with I don't know
the number three one, which is Japan, or the number
four one, which is you could all of a sudden
we get the advantage again. So I think that's really
where we should focus our efforts.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Interesting, So, a couple of weeks ago, the administration was
forced to admit news reports that China was putting spying
apparatus in Cuba. And now we have this story today.
I think it's in the Wall Street Journal that there
is talk of some sort of base or training exercises
between China and Cuban Cuba, which could include Chinese troops
(05:22):
in Cuba. How big a deal is.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
This, right, It's like, oh, man, don't compare this to
the Cold War. But wait, they're putting military basic Cuba.
It's like, all right, well it's not exactly the Cold War,
but you know, there's a couple of things that are
like kind of remind me of it a little bit, right,
you know, and not to mention, you know, the Gulags
and the communism and the military expansion and the repression
(05:44):
and all that stuff. But I mean, you know, the
funny thing about the Biden people is that, you know,
anytime they're they're trying to be nice to Beijing, they
just don't They don't want any bad news with the
They just deny it as a matter of course. Oh
what about the Chinese basic Cubit No, oh we never
saw it. I don't know. And they're like, oh, but
here it is like, oh, well, that wasn't us. That
was the Trump administration. They dropped the ball of that,
(06:06):
And it's not that bad anyway. It's not a spy base.
It's a base that can spy That's what I was like.
They were like, they're like, it doesn't exist. The like, okay,
it does exist, but it's not a spy base. It's
just a base. And yeah, sure there are spies there,
but that's not the main point of the base. It's
really more about you know, you know, planting turn uffs.
So you know what I mean. This is the kind
(06:27):
of nonsense that they spend their time in meetings in
the National Security Council and like you can imagine, like
dozens of emails I am back and forth or like, oh,
can we say it's a base that spies. Oh yeah,
that'll work. Let's let's run with that. Okay, you send
that up to you know what I mean, This is
what our leaders spend their time worrying about.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Okay, Josh Joshu Oagan, global opinions calumnist for the Washington
Post is Online. Sorry, Josh, go ahead finish your thought.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
No, I'm just gonna say, but I don't know, I
forget what I say. Let's go on to the next question.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I interrupted. It was rude, it was untoward, and I
apologize for it.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
We gotta keep the show moving, I get it. We
got a lot to guess him well.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And you know, I actually Jack went on a rant
earlier about how we were the beggar, We were on
our knees begging China for favors and they were telling
us to go to hell. And I accused him of
being a jingoist and out of his mind and the
rest of it. But boy, judging by your description, that
seems to be the dynamic. But in the fairly limited
time we have, what have we learned recently about the
(07:23):
origins of COVID nineteen. How solid is the evidence.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Right right? By the way, I don't think this necessarily
means that he's not out of his mind, by the.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Way, you all right, right, but sometimes when you're paranoid,
they are after you, you know, as the.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Old saying goes, right, But you know, listen, the evidence
keeps mounting that they're probably likely, very likely, definitely probably.
There was some relation between the outbreak of a back
coronavirus that infects humans with the lab in Wuhan next
to the outbreak that was studying the back coronaviruses that
effect human colored me shocked. But and like you know,
(08:01):
like you know, you know, damn those people who you know,
refuse to release this information for three years while people
died and then and people were silent and all that stuff.
You know what I mean. It's a real crime. The
cover up is the crime here. And the Chinese have
been covering up the labs since day one, and we
never asked, well, why are they covering up the labs?
If the labs are innocent, why are they going? Doesn't
make any sick? So, you know, I think, like now,
(08:24):
the evidence is piling up, and I think the pressure's
on the Biden administration to release the rest of it.
They're sitting on the proof. They have it. We don't
need to go to China, we don't need to break
into the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The proof is in
the Biden's hands and all he has to do is
release it, as the law requires him to do. But
I don't think they're going to do it for the
reasons we just discussed. Because it's going to disrupt his
delegate friendship was Jujuing King. That's a tragedy.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Well, and I'm the opposite of a conspiracy theorist. I
approach virtually everything with a great deal of skepticism. But
the evidence seems so clear to me that US funding
was intimately involved in the Wuhan Institute. Anthony Fauci, Peter Dazak,
EcoHealth Alliance, all of them were in bed with that
lab and they have been desperate to cover up their
(09:07):
culpability for the deaths of millions of people. Agreed, disagree halfway?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
What listen, I don't. It's not that we funded the
research that started the pandemic, that we built the whole
laboratory that then took that laboratory and joined it with
the Chinese military, and that's where you know, the problem
likely happened. So we're indirectly responsible. And I say we
all of our whole system, which was thought that we
could just engage China and work with these nice Chinese
(09:34):
scientists and help them play around with that coronaviruses and
everything would be hunky dory. All right, That's a nationwide,
government wide failure that we refuse to acknowledge. But I
think that, Yeah, I think increasingly the jig is up.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
All right, Appreciate your time, man, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Josh Rogan of The Washington Post, Josh, it's always stimulating.
Come on again soon, would you anytime?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
All right?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Thanks,
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