February 24, 2023 • 11 mins
At many points within the past year, President Biden has stated that our country stands with Ukraine "until the end'. But Washington Post columnist Josh Rogin points out--the war is going to get worse before it gets better--and we must do more to help Ukraine win.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Oh, I say, well, I just heard a big bang
right here behind me. I thought we shouldn't have done
the life shot here. There are big explosions taking place
in Kiev right now. It's like I hear rumblings right now.
Oh there's another. I've got a flat jacket right here.
(00:22):
Let me just get it, get it on. That was
a year ago today as the war started in Ukraine.
Russia bombing Kiev, and remember our own government was saying
it was going to likely fall in ninety six hours,
and we offered to get Zalinski and other leaders of
the government out of there, and he famously said, I
(00:44):
need ammunition, a not a ride. And he put out
that video that night of him and other leaders in
the government in the streets and keeps saying we're not
going anywhere. We're staying here, which is main not only brave,
but a history making moment. We're perhaps world changing moment.
And so the Ukrainians held off the Russians. It's now
been a year, but is time on Ukraine's side. Josh Rogan,
(01:06):
one of our favorite columnists if you don't read them
and follow them, Ushity Rates for the Washington Post, is
writing on that very topic lately. Josh, how are you, sir? Great,
great to be back with you. Yeah, So I read
your column last night. I just thought it was so good.
We got to have you on today. You're taking issue
with President Biden's mantra of we're with it until the end.
(01:27):
You know, we're going to stick this out. That whole
thing in time, as long as it takes. As long
as it takes in time is not on Russia's side.
You disagree. So it wasn't so much that I didn't disagree,
it's that Ukrainians disagree. And I went to Munich to
this thing called the Munich Security Conference, and that's where
a lot of Biden administration officials are celebrating their great
(01:48):
accomplishment and winning the Ukraine War, but for one uncomfortable fact,
which is that the Ukraine War is not yet one.
And the Ukrainians who were there were saying, hey, listen,
we really appreciate all the weapons that you've given us,
but the war has changed and we need different stuff now,
and there's an offensive coming. And when we hear as
long as it takes to us, that means you're settling
in for a long slog. But the problem for the
(02:10):
Ukrainians is that if the war takes five more years,
they're not going to have a country, and their economy
is going to be in tatters and people are dying
and their military is suffering every losses and they're you know,
it'll be a pyic victory. So you know, there's a
lot of sort of backslapping and handshakes and Munich about
how great the West did and standing up to Russia.
(02:30):
But it's not over yet, and in fact, it's going
to get worse before it gets better. And clearly this
is more than just a rhetorical difference of how you're
describing something that it means. The strategy has to be
very different. Right. The idea is that the Ukrainians want
to speed up the war because they think if they
don't win this year, and we can talk about what
winning means, then it doesn't matter because they're not going
(02:53):
to have a country to stave. And the fight administration
is in my view, prioritizing unity with France and Germany
over unity with the Ukrainians. And you know, of course
the Europeans are hamming and hanging, that's what they do,
you know, but inside the Biden administration that are a
lot of people are like, hey, we got to give
them the things they need right now, which are long
range missiles and tanks and maybe fighter planes all then
(03:13):
that's not really the most important thing. But in the end,
we seem to always be a day late and a
dollar short. And you know that means that we have
a stalemate. And in that stalemate, Prutin wins because Ukrainians
are suffering and he gets to keep going with his
war and keep waiting us out. Is it basically his
whole plan? Yeah, I agree with you. It seems so
(03:34):
clearly true to me that that time is not on
Ukraine's side, as the President stated the other day. And
this idea as long as it takes, well, it better
be soon or we're gonna lose. Right, Not only that,
American people are not going to tolerate another forever war,
nor should they. So the American people want to know
how does this end? And if I'm telling you what
(03:56):
I hear from Biden people, it's like, oh, well, maybe
if we candrole them into negotiations, by the time Biden
has to run for president again in earnest, the fighting
will be lower and we can say that that's kind
of an accomplishment. But the Ukrainians say that, first of all,
that's crazy because the Russians are committing crimes against humanity.
They're not negotiating. And second of all, wouldn't you rather
(04:16):
run on a win? Would you rather run on we
got it done? And Ukraine is no longer being shelves
all day every day because the war is still ongoing.
But you know, the Biden people are more kind of
worried about the political image of winning the war than
actually winning the war, and the Ukrainian that's crazy. Well,
and I was struck by the number of Ukrainian officials
(04:37):
you talked to who said the war must be won
this year. That's the message. Please, mister President, say that
message right, and because they know that if we say that,
then we don't have to do it, and that means
giving them the things that they would need to win
this year. And if he's a Biden White House, you're thinking, wow,
if they start to win too much, maybe Putin is
going to go crazy and to expand the war to
(04:58):
Poland or drop a nuke on them or something. And
again the Ukrainians here that and they're like, no, no,
no, no no, we want to win. Aren't we trying to win?
You know? And that's the basic fundamental difference between Washington
and Kiev. You know, the people in the White House
think that, oh, eventually they're going to negotiate in a
way that draws the line in the middle of Ukraine,
and the Ukrainians are not going to do that, and
the Russias are not going to do that. So that's
(05:20):
kind of like a conflict inside of our foreign policy
that but he doesn't really want to resolve because he
doesn't want to do the thing that you would need
to do, which is to give them the weapons they
need to win the war. Now well, right, well you
brought it up yourself. What does winning look like? So
I can understand why the Ukrainians do not want to
give up an inch of their territory because, well, for
a lot of reasons, including the fact that if Russia
(05:43):
is still camped in Crimea and wherever, they're just going
to launch another offensive in a couple of years. But
how do you think this thing ends, right, Well, at
least you know, their negotiating positions should be the same. Right,
the Ukrainians want to say, we're gonna take every inch
of our territory including Crimea. Is the fighting is the
seas are gonna gonna happen right when that happens, Maybe not,
(06:03):
but they would at least Washington to like play along.
You know. It's like right now, it's sort of like
they're they're they're trying to convince the Russians that they're
capable of doing that, and the only reason the Russians
don't believe them is because Washington won't give them the
weapons they would need to do that. So how does
this end is a really important question. And you know,
what the Biden people say is it's up to the Ukrainians.
(06:26):
But then they can strain their options by withholding the
things that they would need to actually have that flexibility.
And that's the difference sort of between what the Biden
people say and what they do. What they say is
it's up to the Ukrainians to define winning. What they're
doing is trying to define it down by themselves. Josh
Rogan of the Washington Post on the line, and Josh,
you're one of our favorite guys to talk to about
China as well, and obviously they're involved now indirectly in
(06:49):
the Ukraine thing. Any thoughts on their burgeoning relationship with Russia. Yeah,
there's a lot of crazy talk in Washington now about oh,
the Chinese are so conflicted and you know, they don't
want to be tied down with Russia and maybe we
should just pull them into our orbit and all of
that's nonsense because it presumes that what the Chinese Communist
(07:09):
Party is telling us is true. It's true, and I
was in Munich. I heard them say a lot of
crazy things and they were mostly lies. China is not neutral.
China has providing Russia support this entire time. They're going
to continue to do so. And the thing that we
have to do is call them out for it, and
then if they do it, punish them for it. Because
you know what the problem with Washington is, we don't
(07:29):
understand that different between Chinese propaganda and Chinese policy. Chinese
propaganda is, oh, wow, this Ukraine thing really hasn't tied
up in knots, and maybe we'll have a peace deal
and maybe we'll be the mediators. But it's all nonsense
because what their actual policy is is to help Russia
as much as possible without admitting as such. And we
have to be clear eyed about that. I appreciate you
(07:50):
coming on on short notice. By the way, you read
that article and just thought it was really, really interesting.
I'm wondering, though, you're these are serious topics. You run
pretty hot. Do you do you relax at the end
of the day? I mean, you are you always this intense?
I mean, do you have a drink to you? Ballroom dance?
Do you play video games? Anything that can link lower
your blood pressure? I have a three month newborn caught
an it's it's our first congratulations. By the way, that
(08:15):
is awesome, But that is not the time to get
to relax. I understand that, not exactly relax, but it
is a It is a time to appreciate what's really
important in life, and that's family. And we're very lucky
and our newborn's order is doing well, and I'm trying
to be passionated my work so that we can create
(08:36):
a better world for her to grow up in, because
right now the thugs and crooks and dictators are on
the march, and Ukraine is the place where we have
to fight them. And I know it's tough for the
American people and it cost a lot. N't ask you
for sacrifice, but if you want a world for your
children that resembles the world that we envisioned in our minds.
A world where you can say what you want and
live where you want. That's all the Ukrainians want. It's
(08:58):
not too much to ask, and they're willing to die
for it, and all we have to do is help them,
and we ought to. Yeah, It's one thing about having
kids is you have some stake in the game for
the future, no doubt about that. And I'm saying just
earlier today, or yesterday or whenever, talking about the problems
of the world and how my eleven year old is
going through, you know, one of your major life stages
or something like that, and it was just it was
(09:20):
fantastic to focus on that and you know, for a
while and shut out the rest of the world. Yeah.
I mean, what's fascinating to me is that, you know,
I think the kids are all right. I travel a
lot to colleges and universities and hear a lot about welkness.
But when it comes to China and Russia and the
need to fight dictators, I think the next generation is
going to pick up that torch and run with it. Cool,
(09:40):
if we can just keep keep the fight going until
we have we hand it off to them. Well, it
certainly motivates us every day. The paycheck doesn't hurt, but
that's a that's a big part of it. Josh Rogan
of The Washington Post, Josh, congratulations again. Take care of
your family and keep keep up with the fabulous work.
Thank you so much. You guys, just it's just a word.
You know, he runs pretty take things, very serious, layman.
(10:01):
To make sure you know, it's a real least point
at the end of the day. Of course, when you
have a three month old, that is not the time
that you really get to get your ballroom dancing done
or your drink on or anything like that. No, you
go and bust your ass at work to relax, absolutely
freaking lootly. You know what I was going to ask
him about, But you're charming, personal oriented ending. There was
(10:22):
too good to pass up, was it. McCaslin. We were
talking to or Mic Lines about the fact that China,
who shares a rather long border with Russia, and they
have been phreenemies and enemies over the past, you know,
hundred years. Really they're never really friends. Whether China isn't
(10:45):
enjoying the hell out of watching the Russian military just
get bled dry. Sure, I mean they're supporting them quote
unquote supporting them, but maybe they're supporting them, so the
bleeding continues on both sides. They like bleeding Russia and US.
Uh yeah, yeah, well yes, thank you, Joe Hodel stupid,
(11:05):
are you? Joe? Yeah. It's a good point because our
Pentagon is saying, hey, yeah, hey, yeah, we're just down
there at the old ammunition depot and it's looking a
little thin. What are we gonna do about this? They're
firing a lot arounds and get
Oh, I say, well, I just heard a big bang
right here behind me. I thought we shouldn't have done
the life shot here. There are big explosions taking place
in Kiev right now. It's like I hear rumblings right now.
Oh there's another. I've got a flat jacket right here.
(00:22):
Let me just get it, get it on. That was
a year ago today as the war started in Ukraine.
Russia bombing Kiev, and remember our own government was saying
it was going to likely fall in ninety six hours,
and we offered to get Zalinski and other leaders of
the government out of there, and he famously said, I
(00:44):
need ammunition, a not a ride. And he put out
that video that night of him and other leaders in
the government in the streets and keeps saying we're not
going anywhere. We're staying here, which is main not only brave,
but a history making moment. We're perhaps world changing moment.
And so the Ukrainians held off the Russians. It's now
been a year, but is time on Ukraine's side. Josh Rogan,
(01:06):
one of our favorite columnists if you don't read them
and follow them, Ushity Rates for the Washington Post, is
writing on that very topic lately. Josh, how are you, sir? Great,
great to be back with you. Yeah, So I read
your column last night. I just thought it was so good.
We got to have you on today. You're taking issue
with President Biden's mantra of we're with it until the end.
(01:27):
You know, we're going to stick this out. That whole
thing in time, as long as it takes. As long
as it takes in time is not on Russia's side.
You disagree. So it wasn't so much that I didn't disagree,
it's that Ukrainians disagree. And I went to Munich to
this thing called the Munich Security Conference, and that's where
a lot of Biden administration officials are celebrating their great
(01:48):
accomplishment and winning the Ukraine War, but for one uncomfortable fact,
which is that the Ukraine War is not yet one.
And the Ukrainians who were there were saying, hey, listen,
we really appreciate all the weapons that you've given us,
but the war has changed and we need different stuff now,
and there's an offensive coming. And when we hear as
long as it takes to us, that means you're settling
in for a long slog. But the problem for the
(02:10):
Ukrainians is that if the war takes five more years,
they're not going to have a country, and their economy
is going to be in tatters and people are dying
and their military is suffering every losses and they're you know,
it'll be a pyic victory. So you know, there's a
lot of sort of backslapping and handshakes and Munich about
how great the West did and standing up to Russia.
(02:30):
But it's not over yet, and in fact, it's going
to get worse before it gets better. And clearly this
is more than just a rhetorical difference of how you're
describing something that it means. The strategy has to be
very different. Right. The idea is that the Ukrainians want
to speed up the war because they think if they
don't win this year, and we can talk about what
winning means, then it doesn't matter because they're not going
(02:53):
to have a country to stave. And the fight administration
is in my view, prioritizing unity with France and Germany
over unity with the Ukrainians. And you know, of course
the Europeans are hamming and hanging, that's what they do,
you know, but inside the Biden administration that are a
lot of people are like, hey, we got to give
them the things they need right now, which are long
range missiles and tanks and maybe fighter planes all then
(03:13):
that's not really the most important thing. But in the end,
we seem to always be a day late and a
dollar short. And you know that means that we have
a stalemate. And in that stalemate, Prutin wins because Ukrainians
are suffering and he gets to keep going with his
war and keep waiting us out. Is it basically his
whole plan? Yeah, I agree with you. It seems so
(03:34):
clearly true to me that that time is not on
Ukraine's side, as the President stated the other day. And
this idea as long as it takes, well, it better
be soon or we're gonna lose. Right, Not only that,
American people are not going to tolerate another forever war,
nor should they. So the American people want to know
how does this end? And if I'm telling you what
(03:56):
I hear from Biden people, it's like, oh, well, maybe
if we candrole them into negotiations, by the time Biden
has to run for president again in earnest, the fighting
will be lower and we can say that that's kind
of an accomplishment. But the Ukrainians say that, first of all,
that's crazy because the Russians are committing crimes against humanity.
They're not negotiating. And second of all, wouldn't you rather
(04:16):
run on a win? Would you rather run on we
got it done? And Ukraine is no longer being shelves
all day every day because the war is still ongoing.
But you know, the Biden people are more kind of
worried about the political image of winning the war than
actually winning the war, and the Ukrainian that's crazy. Well,
and I was struck by the number of Ukrainian officials
(04:37):
you talked to who said the war must be won
this year. That's the message. Please, mister President, say that
message right, and because they know that if we say that,
then we don't have to do it, and that means
giving them the things that they would need to win
this year. And if he's a Biden White House, you're thinking, wow,
if they start to win too much, maybe Putin is
going to go crazy and to expand the war to
(04:58):
Poland or drop a nuke on them or something. And
again the Ukrainians here that and they're like, no, no,
no, no no, we want to win. Aren't we trying to win?
You know? And that's the basic fundamental difference between Washington
and Kiev. You know, the people in the White House
think that, oh, eventually they're going to negotiate in a
way that draws the line in the middle of Ukraine,
and the Ukrainians are not going to do that, and
the Russias are not going to do that. So that's
(05:20):
kind of like a conflict inside of our foreign policy
that but he doesn't really want to resolve because he
doesn't want to do the thing that you would need
to do, which is to give them the weapons they
need to win the war. Now well, right, well you
brought it up yourself. What does winning look like? So
I can understand why the Ukrainians do not want to
give up an inch of their territory because, well, for
a lot of reasons, including the fact that if Russia
(05:43):
is still camped in Crimea and wherever, they're just going
to launch another offensive in a couple of years. But
how do you think this thing ends, right, Well, at
least you know, their negotiating positions should be the same. Right,
the Ukrainians want to say, we're gonna take every inch
of our territory including Crimea. Is the fighting is the
seas are gonna gonna happen right when that happens, Maybe not,
(06:03):
but they would at least Washington to like play along.
You know. It's like right now, it's sort of like
they're they're they're trying to convince the Russians that they're
capable of doing that, and the only reason the Russians
don't believe them is because Washington won't give them the
weapons they would need to do that. So how does
this end is a really important question. And you know,
what the Biden people say is it's up to the Ukrainians.
(06:26):
But then they can strain their options by withholding the
things that they would need to actually have that flexibility.
And that's the difference sort of between what the Biden
people say and what they do. What they say is
it's up to the Ukrainians to define winning. What they're
doing is trying to define it down by themselves. Josh
Rogan of the Washington Post on the line, and Josh,
you're one of our favorite guys to talk to about
China as well, and obviously they're involved now indirectly in
(06:49):
the Ukraine thing. Any thoughts on their burgeoning relationship with Russia. Yeah,
there's a lot of crazy talk in Washington now about oh,
the Chinese are so conflicted and you know, they don't
want to be tied down with Russia and maybe we
should just pull them into our orbit and all of
that's nonsense because it presumes that what the Chinese Communist
(07:09):
Party is telling us is true. It's true, and I
was in Munich. I heard them say a lot of
crazy things and they were mostly lies. China is not neutral.
China has providing Russia support this entire time. They're going
to continue to do so. And the thing that we
have to do is call them out for it, and
then if they do it, punish them for it. Because
you know what the problem with Washington is, we don't
(07:29):
understand that different between Chinese propaganda and Chinese policy. Chinese
propaganda is, oh, wow, this Ukraine thing really hasn't tied
up in knots, and maybe we'll have a peace deal
and maybe we'll be the mediators. But it's all nonsense
because what their actual policy is is to help Russia
as much as possible without admitting as such. And we
have to be clear eyed about that. I appreciate you
(07:50):
coming on on short notice. By the way, you read
that article and just thought it was really, really interesting.
I'm wondering, though, you're these are serious topics. You run
pretty hot. Do you do you relax at the end
of the day? I mean, you are you always this intense?
I mean, do you have a drink to you? Ballroom dance?
Do you play video games? Anything that can link lower
your blood pressure? I have a three month newborn caught
an it's it's our first congratulations. By the way, that
(08:15):
is awesome, But that is not the time to get
to relax. I understand that, not exactly relax, but it
is a It is a time to appreciate what's really
important in life, and that's family. And we're very lucky
and our newborn's order is doing well, and I'm trying
to be passionated my work so that we can create
(08:36):
a better world for her to grow up in, because
right now the thugs and crooks and dictators are on
the march, and Ukraine is the place where we have
to fight them. And I know it's tough for the
American people and it cost a lot. N't ask you
for sacrifice, but if you want a world for your
children that resembles the world that we envisioned in our minds.
A world where you can say what you want and
live where you want. That's all the Ukrainians want. It's
(08:58):
not too much to ask, and they're willing to die
for it, and all we have to do is help them,
and we ought to. Yeah, It's one thing about having
kids is you have some stake in the game for
the future, no doubt about that. And I'm saying just
earlier today, or yesterday or whenever, talking about the problems
of the world and how my eleven year old is
going through, you know, one of your major life stages
or something like that, and it was just it was
(09:20):
fantastic to focus on that and you know, for a
while and shut out the rest of the world. Yeah.
I mean, what's fascinating to me is that, you know,
I think the kids are all right. I travel a
lot to colleges and universities and hear a lot about welkness.
But when it comes to China and Russia and the
need to fight dictators, I think the next generation is
going to pick up that torch and run with it. Cool,
(09:40):
if we can just keep keep the fight going until
we have we hand it off to them. Well, it
certainly motivates us every day. The paycheck doesn't hurt, but
that's a that's a big part of it. Josh Rogan
of The Washington Post, Josh, congratulations again. Take care of
your family and keep keep up with the fabulous work.
Thank you so much. You guys, just it's just a word.
You know, he runs pretty take things, very serious, layman.
(10:01):
To make sure you know, it's a real least point
at the end of the day. Of course, when you
have a three month old, that is not the time
that you really get to get your ballroom dancing done
or your drink on or anything like that. No, you
go and bust your ass at work to relax, absolutely
freaking lootly. You know what I was going to ask
him about, But you're charming, personal oriented ending. There was
(10:22):
too good to pass up, was it. McCaslin. We were
talking to or Mic Lines about the fact that China,
who shares a rather long border with Russia, and they
have been phreenemies and enemies over the past, you know,
hundred years. Really they're never really friends. Whether China isn't
(10:45):
enjoying the hell out of watching the Russian military just
get bled dry. Sure, I mean they're supporting them quote
unquote supporting them, but maybe they're supporting them, so the
bleeding continues on both sides. They like bleeding Russia and US.
Uh yeah, yeah, well yes, thank you, Joe Hodel stupid,
(11:05):
are you? Joe? Yeah. It's a good point because our
Pentagon is saying, hey, yeah, hey, yeah, we're just down
there at the old ammunition depot and it's looking a
little thin. What are we gonna do about this? They're
firing a lot arounds and get
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