July 12, 2024 • 11 mins
The Times UK Deputy Rugby Correspondent Will Kelleher joined D'Arcy Waldegrave for an English perspective before the Eden Park test.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldegrave
from news Talk z'd be and.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Let's welcome an English journalist into the program from the
Times in London and England. The Deputy Rugby correspondent will
tell her, well, welcome to the show. Welcome to New Zealand.
You've been here a while now, how's it trading you made?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Yeah? Loving it, had a great time you.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
I spent a year living here ten twelve years ago
and so it's great to be back. We don't get
winters like this back in London. So loving a bit
of Auckland sun.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I think we all loving New Auckland sun. This is
wee bit unusual. Let's say this is not an honest
reflection of New Zealand weather. Look, let's hope it shines.
Well it won't be shining then, but it's a beautiful
day for tomorrow. Second Test. Very keen people right around
this Test match considering the nature of your close defeat
(01:01):
last weekend. This is right here and reny to.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Grab right Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I mean lots of the talk this week has been
about the Eden Park record, the thirty years without defeat,
and England are looking at that and going record to
there to be broken. We want to be the ones
that end that run of forty eight wins, two draws,
no defeats at Eden Park. Look, I think it's going
to be another nipper and we'll probably get onto it.
(01:26):
But some music we've had earlier today in New Zealand
is that George Fairbank is out of the Test with
a back injury and Freddy stuer comes into That might
change the dynamic too, but I think, like last week,
it looks like a great opportunity for him to win.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So how does that change the energy on the pack
with the late replacement. What can we expect? What are
we going to lose? What are we going to gain?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
So it's a fascinating development because people the keys who
followed the England team for a while will have seen
Freddie Stueer play a lot of tests and he's only
twenty three, but I think he's got thirty three caps.
So he had a quick rise and became one of
the best fallbacks in the world and very safe under
the high ball.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
He's very good in the air.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I mean he's about six foot four, six foot five,
so that kind of helps. But he's yeah, good under
those high kicks, which but England have kind of moved
away from that style and George Fairbank was very much
part of that development of the attacking game plan and
trying to move the ball and run it back, which
keys would have seen the Inland try and move the
ball a bit more than they.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Did at the World Cup last week.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
And so losing Furbank, who was part of the Northampton
team that won the premiership, is a bit of a blow.
And then it's an interesting dynamic because Stewart, albeit is
a top class player, hasn't played since the nineteenth of May,
which was the end of the regular league season in
the Premiership. But it's been on tour from Tokyo to
Dunedin to Auckland, had not played a minute. So he's
(02:49):
doing a lot of training and the guys are telling
us that he's been carving up in training. But it's
very different playing a testam Actually ed Park, isn't it.
So he doesn't quite have the dynamism of Furbank, but
he's incredibly safe.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Under the high balls.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
So you wonder whether England of it their game plan
slightly to accommodate Stewart.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
What would that pivot involve. It's going to be different
style of play, but you can't dramatically or drastically change
what you're doing. It's a spinner in the works, do
you know tweaks? Possibly will we might see some change.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah, possibly. I mean they they will stay committed.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I think to this what they want to do, which
is this high tempo game plan which helped them beat
Ireland during the Six Nations. But they may put up
a few more high bombs and like they lost. I
would say they lost the aerial battle last year. Like
Mark Telaer and guys that that were very good on
the high ball. Sevy Ree smashed Fairbank a couple of times,
(03:48):
albeit Fairbank caught the ball at the end of that
test last week. I would expect Steward to be used
to bat the ball back, Tommy Freeman, same on the wing,
a couple of tour players, and if you can win
that battle, they'll think they'll have footholds in the game.
And if they can get a couple of scrumpens and
kick to the corner of some line else that might
be their way into it. But I don't think they'll
(04:09):
completely depart from what they're doing because that's not the
basic way, but naturally with a different player in the
back line, there will be some differences in how they'll
have to attack.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I think what you do on a TECH and the
way this team formulates it to tech. It's so close
but so far away. Where are the areas do you
believe the Pecks specifically have to lift to get on
that front fort and we're joined by Will kellaher Times
Stupid Rugby correspond where do you think the area is
to lift?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
I think that the breakdown battle was an absolute war
last weekend and from my view up in the stands
in doned And I thought that Ben Earl and Sam
Underhill didn't quite have their best day against Dalton Papollie
and Ardie Save who were winning loads of turnover and
slowing the ball down.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
There are a couple of times where the England.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Carrier got isolated and it was kind of a face
to complete that he was going to get turned over.
So I think the of eight, seven and six and
Cunning himself being the sixth is huge on Saturday, just
blasting the rucks, getting rid of some of those bodies
on the floor in England attacking because they can never
get into their kind of attacking shape if they don't
(05:21):
get the ball back quick enough. It was it was
obvious looking at the stats that the All Blacks had
far quicker ball than England last Saturday. So that's a
huge challenge and that all starts with the breakdown, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
To be fair, I think the lusis for the All
Blacks didn't exactly cover themselves in glory. This room for
them to lift too, so they promise is an explosive
class and we know what Earl's capable of here and
outrageously good six Nations didn't. He was argably the player
of the tournament.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Yeah, and he was actually voted by his peers as
England's player of the season. So going back to the
World Cup, and he was pretty good in that tournament too.
You saw when we went to watch them play Japan
in Tokyo that he moved out to twelve at the
end of that game. And we were asking Ardie severa
about it last week and he was saying he's got
some swagging feet, which I quite enjoyed that as an explanation. So, yeah, look,
(06:14):
he I think he's he's had good games in big games,
but he'll need another one this weekend. And then Underhill's
kind of the destructive tackler, the work great guy, but
I think, yeah, big, big games for them because clearly
Surveyor is well he literally is the World Player of
the Year for twenty twenty three. But he's one of
the greats, isn't he. So that's always going to be difficult.
(06:35):
And we always look at the All Blacks and go
they improve in their second week. That's the history of
the All Blacks, isn't it. Like whether they're rusty to
start with or not, they get better after a week.
So the challenge for England is can they get can
they improve quicker than the All Blacks?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, of course coming out of some of them haven't
played in the while, coming out of a Super Rugby
Pacific season too, so adjusting and I'm presuming that's why
Scott Robertson didn't make well. He only made the one
change forced by injury because he wanted these players to
get into a rhythm, trust them in inside and out
of them and that's the most sensible way to go forward.
Did that surprise you? The lack of change and the
(07:13):
English media about what Scott Robertson has actually picked what
he's going to put out there.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
So I think last week lots of us were slightly
surprised that Boden Barrett didn't play fifteen to start, and
we understand why. I guess he's not had a full,
super ugly season like Parafeta was part of the championship
winning Blues team, wasn't he was?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Barrett had acquiet a season and.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Then I think maybe more surprised he didn't come in,
But again you can see the justification of having a
guy with one hundred and twenty odd caps coming off
the bench and closing out the game. And he was
fantastic when he did come off the bench. Last week,
Barrett and Perafeta did well and he set up the
TRIVI Seve didn't he go through well? So look, yes,
but both teams, aside well before Furbank had to come
(07:59):
in with Stuart Lake, have made one injury enforced change.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
So these are interesting, aren't they.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
We kind of love these series because you look at
the first game, it's a bit like Test cricket, doesn't
it and you go, right, I don't know. Both teams
have revealed parts of their plans, so how does it
change with Test to Jamie George has spoken about that
he's a big cricket fan himself. I'm the saying sort
of love the tactical nuances of these series where there
are battles all over the field and everyone kind of
(08:28):
knows a bit more about each other for test too,
So how do you use that to your advantage?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Two of the most oft used words when it's talking
about Northern Hemisphere rugby versus the Southern Hemisphere counterparts at
Rush defense. There's been a lot of discussion around how
to unpeck that, how to avoid that. It's been suggested
that maybe the law, the global rugby law around where
the line is it needs to be adjusted and it
(08:53):
needs to be pushed back because players need more space
and freedom. Otherwise it becomes basically a clash of the
monsters up the front. How do you feel about that?
Because this is a strength of Northern Hemisphere rugby doesn't
need to be they just lighted against.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Definitely not in my view.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
I mean I find that the Russia defense things fascinating
and because it's so risk reward, Like you saw a
few occasions last week where the All Blacks got around
it and England scrambled back and I thinel like, it's
quite exciting if you see someone like Henry Slave flying
out the line, he's got to make the right read
otherwise he's toast and your blacks are in behind. I
(09:31):
think it's interesting and it puts pressure on the attacking skill.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
The question will be, yeah, how the All Blacks will
try and counter it. And it sounds from what they.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Were saying is they may play a bit more through
the middle and up the guts and knew some of
their big forwards and that's kind of how the Blues.
One super rugby, wasn't it that Ford dominated style under Vernecotta,
and maybe two which we saw a little bit in
the second half, a few little kicks behind to sort
of check the defense. But look, I personally there's plenty
(10:01):
in rugby that could well be changed, but I don't
think that's one thing that we should be too worried about.
Makes for a fascinating contest balance between attack and defense.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And I suppose it's it's judicated as well, and all
players are always going to push the envelope as far
as close to the line as they possibly can. It's
the nature. Gee, we had a guy quite good at
back in the day, Richie mccaugh, how we know how
this operates? Will Keller had joined us. He's a deputy
rugby correspondent from the Times, the winning and the losing
(10:33):
of the game. I know we can't simplify rugby, but
where does it sit for you?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I mean?
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Goal kicking is going to be key, isn't it in
these type tense nippers of test matches. Both both Tens
missed and key goals last week and it didn't quite
matter for Damian McKenzie, But blind me, can you imagine
if England had scored after mackenzie been timed out of
his shot clock last week and if Marcus Smith had
got a couple of others during the game. You've got
(11:01):
to be a clutch kicker at this level, haven't you?
And generally Marcus Smith is a pretty good kicker. He's
up in the eighty percent, but had a bad day
on the tea last week, so that's going to be massive.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I think kicking your goals aside from everything else.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
We saw it in the line series down here in
twenty seventeen where Boden Barrett missed some key goals Like
you've got to kick your threes and your twos.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
When you get the chances, don't.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
You take the opportunity when it's there. Always take your threes,
look after your core roles and the rest. Well, let's rugby,
isn't it, hey will? Thanks so much for joining us,
Carry on and enjoying your time here in Auckland and
get amongst the curse of Eden Park.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
You even know it might get tipped pleasure. Thanks for
having me on.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
For more from sports Talk, listen live to news Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldegrave
from news Talk z'd be and.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Let's welcome an English journalist into the program from the
Times in London and England. The Deputy Rugby correspondent will
tell her, well, welcome to the show. Welcome to New Zealand.
You've been here a while now, how's it trading you made?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Yeah? Loving it, had a great time you.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
I spent a year living here ten twelve years ago
and so it's great to be back. We don't get
winters like this back in London. So loving a bit
of Auckland sun.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I think we all loving New Auckland sun. This is
wee bit unusual. Let's say this is not an honest
reflection of New Zealand weather. Look, let's hope it shines.
Well it won't be shining then, but it's a beautiful
day for tomorrow. Second Test. Very keen people right around
this Test match considering the nature of your close defeat
(01:01):
last weekend. This is right here and reny to.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Grab right Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I mean lots of the talk this week has been
about the Eden Park record, the thirty years without defeat,
and England are looking at that and going record to
there to be broken. We want to be the ones
that end that run of forty eight wins, two draws,
no defeats at Eden Park. Look, I think it's going
to be another nipper and we'll probably get onto it.
(01:26):
But some music we've had earlier today in New Zealand
is that George Fairbank is out of the Test with
a back injury and Freddy stuer comes into That might
change the dynamic too, but I think, like last week,
it looks like a great opportunity for him to win.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So how does that change the energy on the pack
with the late replacement. What can we expect? What are
we going to lose? What are we going to gain?
Speaker 4 (01:48):
So it's a fascinating development because people the keys who
followed the England team for a while will have seen
Freddie Stueer play a lot of tests and he's only
twenty three, but I think he's got thirty three caps.
So he had a quick rise and became one of
the best fallbacks in the world and very safe under
the high ball.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
He's very good in the air.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I mean he's about six foot four, six foot five,
so that kind of helps. But he's yeah, good under
those high kicks, which but England have kind of moved
away from that style and George Fairbank was very much
part of that development of the attacking game plan and
trying to move the ball and run it back, which
keys would have seen the Inland try and move the
ball a bit more than they.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Did at the World Cup last week.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
And so losing Furbank, who was part of the Northampton
team that won the premiership, is a bit of a blow.
And then it's an interesting dynamic because Stewart, albeit is
a top class player, hasn't played since the nineteenth of May,
which was the end of the regular league season in
the Premiership. But it's been on tour from Tokyo to
Dunedin to Auckland, had not played a minute. So he's
(02:49):
doing a lot of training and the guys are telling
us that he's been carving up in training. But it's
very different playing a testam Actually ed Park, isn't it.
So he doesn't quite have the dynamism of Furbank, but
he's incredibly safe.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Under the high balls.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
So you wonder whether England of it their game plan
slightly to accommodate Stewart.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
What would that pivot involve. It's going to be different
style of play, but you can't dramatically or drastically change
what you're doing. It's a spinner in the works, do
you know tweaks? Possibly will we might see some change.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah, possibly. I mean they they will stay committed.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I think to this what they want to do, which
is this high tempo game plan which helped them beat
Ireland during the Six Nations. But they may put up
a few more high bombs and like they lost. I
would say they lost the aerial battle last year. Like
Mark Telaer and guys that that were very good on
the high ball. Sevy Ree smashed Fairbank a couple of times,
(03:48):
albeit Fairbank caught the ball at the end of that
test last week. I would expect Steward to be used
to bat the ball back, Tommy Freeman, same on the wing,
a couple of tour players, and if you can win
that battle, they'll think they'll have footholds in the game.
And if they can get a couple of scrumpens and
kick to the corner of some line else that might
be their way into it. But I don't think they'll
(04:09):
completely depart from what they're doing because that's not the
basic way, but naturally with a different player in the
back line, there will be some differences in how they'll
have to attack.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I think what you do on a TECH and the
way this team formulates it to tech. It's so close
but so far away. Where are the areas do you
believe the Pecks specifically have to lift to get on
that front fort and we're joined by Will kellaher Times
Stupid Rugby correspond where do you think the area is
to lift?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
I think that the breakdown battle was an absolute war
last weekend and from my view up in the stands
in doned And I thought that Ben Earl and Sam
Underhill didn't quite have their best day against Dalton Papollie
and Ardie Save who were winning loads of turnover and
slowing the ball down.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
There are a couple of times where the England.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Carrier got isolated and it was kind of a face
to complete that he was going to get turned over.
So I think the of eight, seven and six and
Cunning himself being the sixth is huge on Saturday, just
blasting the rucks, getting rid of some of those bodies
on the floor in England attacking because they can never
get into their kind of attacking shape if they don't
(05:21):
get the ball back quick enough. It was it was
obvious looking at the stats that the All Blacks had
far quicker ball than England last Saturday. So that's a
huge challenge and that all starts with the breakdown, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
To be fair, I think the lusis for the All
Blacks didn't exactly cover themselves in glory. This room for
them to lift too, so they promise is an explosive
class and we know what Earl's capable of here and
outrageously good six Nations didn't. He was argably the player
of the tournament.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Yeah, and he was actually voted by his peers as
England's player of the season. So going back to the
World Cup, and he was pretty good in that tournament too.
You saw when we went to watch them play Japan
in Tokyo that he moved out to twelve at the
end of that game. And we were asking Ardie severa
about it last week and he was saying he's got
some swagging feet, which I quite enjoyed that as an explanation. So, yeah, look,
(06:14):
he I think he's he's had good games in big games,
but he'll need another one this weekend. And then Underhill's
kind of the destructive tackler, the work great guy, but
I think, yeah, big, big games for them because clearly
Surveyor is well he literally is the World Player of
the Year for twenty twenty three. But he's one of
the greats, isn't he. So that's always going to be difficult.
(06:35):
And we always look at the All Blacks and go
they improve in their second week. That's the history of
the All Blacks, isn't it. Like whether they're rusty to
start with or not, they get better after a week.
So the challenge for England is can they get can
they improve quicker than the All Blacks?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, of course coming out of some of them haven't
played in the while, coming out of a Super Rugby
Pacific season too, so adjusting and I'm presuming that's why
Scott Robertson didn't make well. He only made the one
change forced by injury because he wanted these players to
get into a rhythm, trust them in inside and out
of them and that's the most sensible way to go forward.
Did that surprise you? The lack of change and the
(07:13):
English media about what Scott Robertson has actually picked what
he's going to put out there.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
So I think last week lots of us were slightly
surprised that Boden Barrett didn't play fifteen to start, and
we understand why. I guess he's not had a full,
super ugly season like Parafeta was part of the championship
winning Blues team, wasn't he was?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Barrett had acquiet a season and.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Then I think maybe more surprised he didn't come in,
But again you can see the justification of having a
guy with one hundred and twenty odd caps coming off
the bench and closing out the game. And he was
fantastic when he did come off the bench. Last week,
Barrett and Perafeta did well and he set up the
TRIVI Seve didn't he go through well? So look, yes,
but both teams, aside well before Furbank had to come
(07:59):
in with Stuart Lake, have made one injury enforced change.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
So these are interesting, aren't they.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
We kind of love these series because you look at
the first game, it's a bit like Test cricket, doesn't
it and you go, right, I don't know. Both teams
have revealed parts of their plans, so how does it
change with Test to Jamie George has spoken about that
he's a big cricket fan himself. I'm the saying sort
of love the tactical nuances of these series where there
are battles all over the field and everyone kind of
(08:28):
knows a bit more about each other for test too,
So how do you use that to your advantage?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Two of the most oft used words when it's talking
about Northern Hemisphere rugby versus the Southern Hemisphere counterparts at
Rush defense. There's been a lot of discussion around how
to unpeck that, how to avoid that. It's been suggested
that maybe the law, the global rugby law around where
the line is it needs to be adjusted and it
(08:53):
needs to be pushed back because players need more space
and freedom. Otherwise it becomes basically a clash of the
monsters up the front. How do you feel about that?
Because this is a strength of Northern Hemisphere rugby doesn't
need to be they just lighted against.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Definitely not in my view.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
I mean I find that the Russia defense things fascinating
and because it's so risk reward, Like you saw a
few occasions last week where the All Blacks got around
it and England scrambled back and I thinel like, it's
quite exciting if you see someone like Henry Slave flying
out the line, he's got to make the right read
otherwise he's toast and your blacks are in behind. I
(09:31):
think it's interesting and it puts pressure on the attacking skill.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
The question will be, yeah, how the All Blacks will
try and counter it. And it sounds from what they.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Were saying is they may play a bit more through
the middle and up the guts and knew some of
their big forwards and that's kind of how the Blues.
One super rugby, wasn't it that Ford dominated style under Vernecotta,
and maybe two which we saw a little bit in
the second half, a few little kicks behind to sort
of check the defense. But look, I personally there's plenty
(10:01):
in rugby that could well be changed, but I don't
think that's one thing that we should be too worried about.
Makes for a fascinating contest balance between attack and defense.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And I suppose it's it's judicated as well, and all
players are always going to push the envelope as far
as close to the line as they possibly can. It's
the nature. Gee, we had a guy quite good at
back in the day, Richie mccaugh, how we know how
this operates? Will Keller had joined us. He's a deputy
rugby correspondent from the Times, the winning and the losing
(10:33):
of the game. I know we can't simplify rugby, but
where does it sit for you?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I mean?
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Goal kicking is going to be key, isn't it in
these type tense nippers of test matches. Both both Tens
missed and key goals last week and it didn't quite
matter for Damian McKenzie, But blind me, can you imagine
if England had scored after mackenzie been timed out of
his shot clock last week and if Marcus Smith had
got a couple of others during the game. You've got
(11:01):
to be a clutch kicker at this level, haven't you?
And generally Marcus Smith is a pretty good kicker. He's
up in the eighty percent, but had a bad day
on the tea last week, so that's going to be massive.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I think kicking your goals aside from everything else.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
We saw it in the line series down here in
twenty seventeen where Boden Barrett missed some key goals Like
you've got to kick your threes and your twos.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
When you get the chances, don't.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
You take the opportunity when it's there. Always take your threes,
look after your core roles and the rest. Well, let's rugby,
isn't it, hey will? Thanks so much for joining us,
Carry on and enjoying your time here in Auckland and
get amongst the curse of Eden Park.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
You even know it might get tipped pleasure. Thanks for
having me on.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
For more from sports Talk, listen live to news Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.