October 23, 2024 • 10 mins
Former Rugby Australia chairman Hamish McLennan joined D'Arcy Waldegrave to discuss his push for the union to start signing league superstars.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dunsey Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We'll join now by Hamies Clennon. He is a former
chair of Rugby Australia. As we look at some comments
that he made in Sydney Morning Herald around the possibility
of attacking Rugby League for more great players, saying they
bring bums on seat. Hamish of course was behind the
acquisition of Joseph so Lee for what was it, five
(00:33):
million dollars and thinks it's done big things and there's
more to come. Hamoush, Welcome to the show. Great to
have you on again. Interesting words, Nathan Cleary, You've got
to target on his back and I'm sure he's not
the only one. Tell us what you base this on.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Look, there's been some informal outreaches in the past. I mean,
I'm obviously not at Rugby Australia now, but after we
signed Joseph who I think is once center generation talent
and he's already paid for himself at RA might mind you,
but it was interesting that the Nine Network went to
Area at the time that we signed Sowali and they
(01:10):
said what do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
And I think most of the market.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Observers felt the Cleary would have sort of rejected the
idea that if you look at the tape at the time,
he was sort of open to the idea of moving
to rugby because his father coached the Warriors, as you
would know, and he grew up playing rugby, and those
two guys are classic examples of players that had a
rugby heritage who loved the game. And I guess the
(01:37):
backdrop that I sort of need to continue to explain
to Kiwi's is that the AFL and the NRL are
really big sports, much larger here, and so the acquisitions
of Joseph and potentially others was always based around can
they add value to the Wallabies and our high performance program.
(01:58):
But from a secondary point of view, like you wouldn't
believe the fever pitch excitement with Joseph starting this week,
the media has been about him and you'll have all
these rugby league people who don't watch rugby anymore. He'll
be tuning in to see him play, and they'll go
and watch him play and it'll drive sponsorship and viewership and.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Ultimately the plan at the time.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
When we signed him was to sort of create momentum
in the sport, so that when we renewed the media
Rite deal that we'll be able to get more. But
you know, sadly I didn't make it. We didn't get there.
But I think Joseph would be a great addition to
the Wallaby team.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You're assertion that he's paid back the investment already, what's
that based on?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well, look, don't forget that.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know, there are already players that are many a
million dollars plus within rugby.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I won't go into who they are.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So there was an incremental cost to get him across
because he has seen such a great prodigious talent. So
the amount of media coverage we've got, the focus on
rugby as a sport, and just the fact that he
is a first class player mind backing in my belief
as was that he will make a difference. And interestingly,
(03:11):
you know, I still have friends in and around rugby
and guys that are actually playing for the Wallabies, and
the anecdotal feedback that we're getting in because he's such
a sort of versatile utility player, he's already lifting standards,
certainly in the back line because he comes with a
big reputation he's tough as old boots, and you know,
(03:32):
even in the training sessions, you know he could play inside, outside,
center of the wing or fall back and he's got
a great boot. So everyone I'm hearing is sort of
lifting their game a bit.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
As far as money is concerned in numbers that way,
there's nothing solid that suggests he's draking extra sponsorship in
that can be relied upon.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Truly to say that, when I was at Rugby Australia,
I had a very close relationship with a number of
the sponsors and certainly some of some of the larger
ones thought it was such a great idea getting josephin,
so at the time it was supported by key sponsors,
and certainly I think the media. You know, since since hesned,
(04:17):
every time we played in rugby League, the commentators would
often talk about the fact that it's making a switch
to rugby union and it's just going to drive viewership.
And again, if RA is smart about it, they'll be
able to crystallize more sponsorship out of the likes of
us like Joseph.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
What about the likes of Nathan Cleary if he would
actually do it or not, and could they afford to
do it? Because I'm presuming everybody has a price, but
there's Rugby Australia flash enough to afford to chuck all
that money at him, do you think Hamish.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Look, there is already adplicated budget towards players, So what's
been twisted and misreported is that Joseph's cost was at
the expense of a whole lot of other Now we
did pay an incremental amount based on, you know, other
(05:08):
players in the team, but the reality is that small
the whole scheme of things. So just to put it
into context, when I started just after raylen Castle left
Rugby Australia during COVID, that first year I was there,
we lost over twenty five million, and three years later
we made a profit of over eight million I think
(05:29):
it was, and we cut thirty seven million dollars worth
of cost out of the organization in the first year
that I was there, So that was that was the
guarantee survival. So firstly, we knew what we were doing
from a financial point of view. Secondly, you're already paying players,
so I was firmly of the view you've got to
(05:50):
get a handful of superstars in there because.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
The Wallabies just aren't competitive against the ABS and.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
All South Africa, and we saw in the World Cup.
You know, whether you think you know Eddie was a
good choice or not, he's got a lot of blame
for it. But the reality is rugby and Australia has
underperformed for nearly two decades. We haven't won a World
Cup since nineteen ninety nine, we haven't won a Bledisloe
in twenty three years.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And the system's broken.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
And so a team, you change the pathways, get better
at recruitment, sent biz, the whole organization Australian rugby won't
perform to the level. We might win the odd game
against the Ads, it'll be great, but the bledder is
low is no longer the contest that it was, and
so I'm kind of trying to steal it down a
really fundamental sort of areas and I just think the
(06:38):
whole thing's broken and sort of So to answer your question, yes,
you know, I think what Nathan needs to do, and
my understanding is, you know, he's won four Premierships with Penrith.
A fifth would be nice, but he's still an immortal
and he's achieved everything that he would want to achieve.
And I think the lure of a home World Cup
in Australia and potentially playing lines. I don't know if
(07:01):
he's available. My sense is that if you could tick
that off in your career, that's pretty be pretty special,
certainly a home World Cup, So you know, I don't know.
I don't think there's an appetite an r to go
after him, but I certainly would have. I would have
gone after him half if I was still there.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Joined by Hamish mccleannan. He's the former chair of Rugby Australia.
How much of this depends on the success of someone
like Joseph If he was a flop, would that effect
the wants of Rugby Australia to go around hunting down
league players. It's quite a big punt.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Well, my sense is, look, I know who's running the
organization now. There's certainly a more conservative approach to the
way I would have done it. But but the way
it's been running the past does not work. So like
be An Australia's bolt for two decades. If we're honest
about it, I wouldn't have gone after lead people for
the sake of it. But what you'll see with Joseph, look,
(07:56):
I doubt he'll be a flop. But it's like anything
in life, unless you have a you will want to know.
But I just looked on a historical basis, which was
why I went in twenty twenty during COVID to try
and help out. Was you've got a convention. But I
just think what's plainly evident to me is that you
just you just look at the system and the fact
(08:18):
that we're not winning major tournaments, but a final in
twenty fifteen, you've got to say hi. And so I
think I think we've lost so many good players to
rugby league, and dare I say it to the AFL,
like you think all that tool Tim that now plays AFL,
big players that could have been in the front row,
they're just not there anymore. So I was I was
(08:40):
concerned after we won the hosting rights to the World
Cup in twenty seven in Australia, but we just didn't
have the cattle there and I think Eddie probably.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Deep down recognized it.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And I think you know Ready had the same issue,
and I think Joe Schmidt does. And I think Joe's
everything I hear is a fabulous coach and no doubt
very well credential. But you know, if you don't have
the cattle to work with, and you don't have you know,
you don't have three or for Angus Bells or Tannyella
tupas to call upon, and then you've got to really suffer.
(09:11):
And so Joseph, Joseph was one of hopefully a handful
of players that we would have got in and they
could have been rugby that we got from France or Japan.
That our ranks have been plundered for a long time
and we haven't had a long term plan. So it
was really about shoring up the Wallabies ahead of a
media RTE cycle, the Lions and the Rugby World Cup
(09:34):
in Australia.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Any other players you'd target, obviously you've mentioned Nathan Cleary,
you mentioned maybe rugby players from overseas and the like
as anyone else that should be in the cross here
is that would provide that traction that rugby Australia required.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Look, it's look, it's not my call and these players
locked up long term. But you know there's a guy
that never played super rugby in Australia who's in Japan,
A young guy called Harry Hopkins who came out of Queensland.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
He went, he went straight to Japan.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
There's a whole list, and there's Kaylen Ponger who plays
the Newcastle Knights.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
He had a rugby upbringing.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So there are so many players that don't play rugby
in Australian now who could and would be eligible.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And so I'm not not casting.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Any dispersions on any of the current player group, but
we just don't have the depth of the abs or
the spring box or any matter in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dunsey Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We'll join now by Hamies Clennon. He is a former
chair of Rugby Australia. As we look at some comments
that he made in Sydney Morning Herald around the possibility
of attacking Rugby League for more great players, saying they
bring bums on seat. Hamish of course was behind the
acquisition of Joseph so Lee for what was it, five
(00:33):
million dollars and thinks it's done big things and there's
more to come. Hamoush, Welcome to the show. Great to
have you on again. Interesting words, Nathan Cleary, You've got
to target on his back and I'm sure he's not
the only one. Tell us what you base this on.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Look, there's been some informal outreaches in the past. I mean,
I'm obviously not at Rugby Australia now, but after we
signed Joseph who I think is once center generation talent
and he's already paid for himself at RA might mind you,
but it was interesting that the Nine Network went to
Area at the time that we signed Sowali and they
(01:10):
said what do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
And I think most of the market.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Observers felt the Cleary would have sort of rejected the
idea that if you look at the tape at the time,
he was sort of open to the idea of moving
to rugby because his father coached the Warriors, as you
would know, and he grew up playing rugby, and those
two guys are classic examples of players that had a
rugby heritage who loved the game. And I guess the
(01:37):
backdrop that I sort of need to continue to explain
to Kiwi's is that the AFL and the NRL are
really big sports, much larger here, and so the acquisitions
of Joseph and potentially others was always based around can
they add value to the Wallabies and our high performance program.
(01:58):
But from a secondary point of view, like you wouldn't
believe the fever pitch excitement with Joseph starting this week,
the media has been about him and you'll have all
these rugby league people who don't watch rugby anymore. He'll
be tuning in to see him play, and they'll go
and watch him play and it'll drive sponsorship and viewership and.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Ultimately the plan at the time.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
When we signed him was to sort of create momentum
in the sport, so that when we renewed the media
Rite deal that we'll be able to get more. But
you know, sadly I didn't make it. We didn't get there.
But I think Joseph would be a great addition to
the Wallaby team.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You're assertion that he's paid back the investment already, what's
that based on?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well, look, don't forget that.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know, there are already players that are many a
million dollars plus within rugby.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I won't go into who they are.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So there was an incremental cost to get him across
because he has seen such a great prodigious talent. So
the amount of media coverage we've got, the focus on
rugby as a sport, and just the fact that he
is a first class player mind backing in my belief
as was that he will make a difference. And interestingly,
(03:11):
you know, I still have friends in and around rugby
and guys that are actually playing for the Wallabies, and
the anecdotal feedback that we're getting in because he's such
a sort of versatile utility player, he's already lifting standards,
certainly in the back line because he comes with a
big reputation he's tough as old boots, and you know,
(03:32):
even in the training sessions, you know he could play inside, outside,
center of the wing or fall back and he's got
a great boot. So everyone I'm hearing is sort of
lifting their game a bit.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
As far as money is concerned in numbers that way,
there's nothing solid that suggests he's draking extra sponsorship in
that can be relied upon.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Truly to say that, when I was at Rugby Australia,
I had a very close relationship with a number of
the sponsors and certainly some of some of the larger
ones thought it was such a great idea getting josephin,
so at the time it was supported by key sponsors,
and certainly I think the media. You know, since since hesned,
(04:17):
every time we played in rugby League, the commentators would
often talk about the fact that it's making a switch
to rugby union and it's just going to drive viewership.
And again, if RA is smart about it, they'll be
able to crystallize more sponsorship out of the likes of
us like Joseph.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
What about the likes of Nathan Cleary if he would
actually do it or not, and could they afford to
do it? Because I'm presuming everybody has a price, but
there's Rugby Australia flash enough to afford to chuck all
that money at him, do you think Hamish.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Look, there is already adplicated budget towards players, So what's
been twisted and misreported is that Joseph's cost was at
the expense of a whole lot of other Now we
did pay an incremental amount based on, you know, other
(05:08):
players in the team, but the reality is that small
the whole scheme of things. So just to put it
into context, when I started just after raylen Castle left
Rugby Australia during COVID, that first year I was there,
we lost over twenty five million, and three years later
we made a profit of over eight million I think
(05:29):
it was, and we cut thirty seven million dollars worth
of cost out of the organization in the first year
that I was there, So that was that was the
guarantee survival. So firstly, we knew what we were doing
from a financial point of view. Secondly, you're already paying players,
so I was firmly of the view you've got to
(05:50):
get a handful of superstars in there because.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
The Wallabies just aren't competitive against the ABS and.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
All South Africa, and we saw in the World Cup.
You know, whether you think you know Eddie was a
good choice or not, he's got a lot of blame
for it. But the reality is rugby and Australia has
underperformed for nearly two decades. We haven't won a World
Cup since nineteen ninety nine, we haven't won a Bledisloe
in twenty three years.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And the system's broken.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
And so a team, you change the pathways, get better
at recruitment, sent biz, the whole organization Australian rugby won't
perform to the level. We might win the odd game
against the Ads, it'll be great, but the bledder is
low is no longer the contest that it was, and
so I'm kind of trying to steal it down a
really fundamental sort of areas and I just think the
(06:38):
whole thing's broken and sort of So to answer your question, yes,
you know, I think what Nathan needs to do, and
my understanding is, you know, he's won four Premierships with Penrith.
A fifth would be nice, but he's still an immortal
and he's achieved everything that he would want to achieve.
And I think the lure of a home World Cup
in Australia and potentially playing lines. I don't know if
(07:01):
he's available. My sense is that if you could tick
that off in your career, that's pretty be pretty special,
certainly a home World Cup, So you know, I don't know.
I don't think there's an appetite an r to go
after him, but I certainly would have. I would have
gone after him half if I was still there.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Joined by Hamish mccleannan. He's the former chair of Rugby Australia.
How much of this depends on the success of someone
like Joseph If he was a flop, would that effect
the wants of Rugby Australia to go around hunting down
league players. It's quite a big punt.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Well, my sense is, look, I know who's running the
organization now. There's certainly a more conservative approach to the
way I would have done it. But but the way
it's been running the past does not work. So like
be An Australia's bolt for two decades. If we're honest
about it, I wouldn't have gone after lead people for
the sake of it. But what you'll see with Joseph, look,
(07:56):
I doubt he'll be a flop. But it's like anything
in life, unless you have a you will want to know.
But I just looked on a historical basis, which was
why I went in twenty twenty during COVID to try
and help out. Was you've got a convention. But I
just think what's plainly evident to me is that you
just you just look at the system and the fact
(08:18):
that we're not winning major tournaments, but a final in
twenty fifteen, you've got to say hi. And so I
think I think we've lost so many good players to
rugby league, and dare I say it to the AFL,
like you think all that tool Tim that now plays AFL,
big players that could have been in the front row,
they're just not there anymore. So I was I was
(08:40):
concerned after we won the hosting rights to the World
Cup in twenty seven in Australia, but we just didn't
have the cattle there and I think Eddie probably.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Deep down recognized it.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And I think you know Ready had the same issue,
and I think Joe Schmidt does. And I think Joe's
everything I hear is a fabulous coach and no doubt
very well credential. But you know, if you don't have
the cattle to work with, and you don't have you know,
you don't have three or for Angus Bells or Tannyella
tupas to call upon, and then you've got to really suffer.
(09:11):
And so Joseph, Joseph was one of hopefully a handful
of players that we would have got in and they
could have been rugby that we got from France or Japan.
That our ranks have been plundered for a long time
and we haven't had a long term plan. So it
was really about shoring up the Wallabies ahead of a
media RTE cycle, the Lions and the Rugby World Cup
(09:34):
in Australia.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Any other players you'd target, obviously you've mentioned Nathan Cleary,
you mentioned maybe rugby players from overseas and the like
as anyone else that should be in the cross here
is that would provide that traction that rugby Australia required.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Look, it's look, it's not my call and these players
locked up long term. But you know there's a guy
that never played super rugby in Australia who's in Japan,
A young guy called Harry Hopkins who came out of Queensland.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
He went, he went straight to Japan.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
There's a whole list, and there's Kaylen Ponger who plays
the Newcastle Knights.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
He had a rugby upbringing.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So there are so many players that don't play rugby
in Australian now who could and would be eligible.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And so I'm not not casting.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Any dispersions on any of the current player group, but
we just don't have the depth of the abs or
the spring box or any matter in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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