November 27, 2024 • 14 mins
New Zealand Rugby are weighing up the option of taking an All Blacks home test against France to the United States next year.
The New Zealand Herald understands NZR are talking to the French Rugby Federation about shifting one of three July tests to be part of a doubleheader with England and the USA Eagles.
It comes a month after confirmation none of France's marquee players will be joining the tour.
Crusaders CEO Colin Mansbridge talks to D'Arcy about their experience of taking games overseas.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duncie Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We'll joined now by CEO of Crusaders Rugby, Colon Manspreads. Colin,
welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
How are you mate?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Very very well talking to you around taking your brand
overseas and this is something that is very important in
a number of different sports, particularly here in New Zealand.
You did it with the Crusaders. You took the Crusaders
away for preseason games against Bristol and against Munster. I
suppose first question, what are the major considerations before you
(00:43):
hit go on that concept?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
So probably the most important things is that the number
of fans that are associated or like Super Rugby, that
are overseas, so Super the five New Zealand founding Super
Rugby clubs. It's quite attractive propositions when you get oversee.
So we got some research back that New Zealand Rugby
(01:09):
commercial did for us. So Craig Fenton engaged a researcher
and they did a little bit of work for the
five founding two per Abi clubs and what we learned
from that was that most of us have a fan
base of and we'll talk about all one level of
engagement for the moment, but just assume that it's just
(01:30):
reach somewhere between one point three and one point eight
million fans, of which only about twenty percent on average
of those five clubs were New Zealand based. So in
other words, for Crusaders, let's say it's one point eight
million engaged fans. Now there's different levels of engagement, but
engage fans, of which twenty percent of those were based
(01:51):
in the top of the South Island. So that was
the first sort of insight that we gathered. The second
was when we when it was explored and we tested
on a couple of clubs, and I think the classic
for US is Munster selling out a stadium forty four
thousand I think we I think forty two thousand seats
available and it's sold within the day. It shows you
(02:14):
that there is appeal for super rugby club brands in
the Northern Hemisphere, especially against those traditional European rugby Championship
or Premiership and i'd say even the top fourteen clubs,
so there was definitely demand from that side. Now, you're
not going to sell jerseys or merch or anything like
that to those people. If you're not there frequently, so
(02:41):
we might become the second favorite team club team of
some of the fans up there. So I think the
first thing is that we've got lots of fans in
different parts of the world, and that goes for all
of those five fanning Superraby clubs and they're all over
the place. And then we're also we've been working hard
on this potential well hopefully if past potential World Club
(03:03):
Cup and you know, later on twenty eight maybe and
that's you know, you're going to have to start getting
some rivalries going for that to happen, and that might
have more commercial commercial value. So and then lastly is
our population in New Zealand doesn't necessarily so preseasons tend
to cost us money. You know, you tend to take
(03:26):
them to the regions to connect with their fans in
the regions, which is exactly the right thing to do,
but that usually comes at quite a bit of cost.
You're flying another team and your tickets are very cheap generally,
and you're not covering costs, and so it comes at
quite a cost. And you can go up fill a
couple of big stadiums up and over two games and
through that pay for your flights to and fro and
(03:49):
accommodation and your preparation up there.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
So.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
It comes some cost local engagement, so you've got to
be careful about that. But yeah, it's we've got fans there.
It's clear we've got fans there, and we've got people
interested in watching us play color Mansbrey.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Is it morally sound to do that? You mentioned the fans.
Know there was pushback here when you did that, saying hey,
don't ignore us, we are your grass roots. Was there
a feeling around that maybe you shouldn't have done something
like this or without a choice when you consider the
income generated.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Well, it's you know, for a club like us, that
the delta or the difference in the revenue is substantial
enough to make it worthwhile. Now, if we were an
organization that was recording, you know, multimillion dollars worth of
profit and we were pillaging our fans for for every
(04:47):
cent they're worth that, then maybe you know, you'd say,
don't explore those things. But there is revenue in different locations,
and that revenue goes somewhere to underwriting the costs of
running a business in New Zealand. So you've got to
be a bit careful about just turning your nose up
those opportunities. But it does come at some cost. So
(05:09):
we tried what we did, play a local game here
and it probably it took a bit of its hole
in terms of pre season preparation. So so you know,
we proved the concept and I wouldn't roll it off
the table in future. I think there's there's absolutely demand
up there. And and actually, you know, I know other
(05:32):
countries I've traveled to with Crusaders. It's surprising the number
of fans you've got in those places. So it's sort
of like, just because somebody lives in christ Church, for example,
does that make them a better fan than somebody who
traveled across the Strait to watch us play against Munster
and buys an away membership and merchandise every year? You
(05:55):
know who's the most who's which fan is the best fan?
So to speak, It's sort of it's hard to You've
got to be careful about judging.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Colin Mansbridge joined us by and large though it was
a worthwhile expedition. You said there will be more of it.
Is that confirmed? You will actually dip your foot back
and this again, and I'm presuming tell me if I'm
wrong that the margins were so good, you're be insane
not to that there's money in Thembar Hills.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Definitely, this was for us a proof of concept, so
we didn't come back with buckets of gold for this one.
We tested, and we did it in a low risk manner,
so all of our costs were covered. Its a very
low risk exercise we undertook. But my understanding from the
(06:46):
research and the analysis we did on our trip and
the costs and how we would cover it is that
there would be potential for clubs to travel to the
North and do reasonably well and underwrite some of their
preseason costs as well. Now, are you going to go
up every year? Absolutely not. Do you want to go
up or you know, maybe even bring a side down here.
(07:10):
But again it's a smaller market with less capacity to pay,
so that's the thing you got to keep in mind.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
What about pushback, Colin, but touched on that before. You
would have got a fair amount, i'd suggest, from New Zealanders,
from Crusaders fans. How much did you get?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
What was it like?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Is it okay to suppose take that on board?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Can you absorb that it's actually surprising how a little
pushback we got. What's clear is take the Crusaders outside
of the Canterbury region, where there's a capacity to travel
with not too much difficulty to get in to watch
the Crusaders playing christ Church. Outside of the Canterbury region,
(07:51):
there is demand for us to play in those regions.
But again, you know, quite often if you think about
even part would be the same sky stadium as the
same They're big bits of infrastructure that do need to
be utilized. So taking away games in season is difficult
because those the deals that you have to do to
(08:12):
support those venues and underwrite their cost of operation mean
that you're probably committing most of your matches, your home
games in a domestic competition or in a Sugarebbia competition,
you're committing them to that venue. So and then so
you tend to use pre season as your opportunity to
connect with your fans and take a team there. But
(08:35):
you know, we managed to get a game in and
against the Highlanders, and I think you know we probably
learned to process. So we will continue to explore it.
We won't give it away now. Of course, it does
come at some expense you've got to what's the nature
of the squad that you take. How much travel are
they been exposed to. I know there's a lot of
(08:56):
young men that were grown a lot through that experience.
So so yeah, we might see the diviends and that
in the year or two is time.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Man's CEO of Crusaders joins me, And that really does
lead on to next question, the effect on players, both
positively and negatively. I'm talking in their mental space and
also mere fatigue preseason. You're putting a lot on these players,
Aren't it worth it?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Well, well, that's that's the big challenge for that's a
big challenge in terms of travel. But if you look
at the group that we took and and and the
group that didn't travel, and and you look at the
development opportunity that arose for some of those younger men
who so it wasn't I wouldn't say it was a
(09:42):
team littered with all blacks, for example, or all black
fifteen players. So so how much travel had they done
that year? Probably not a lot. And so you know,
we weren't we weren't burning people out. And conversely, there
were a lot of younger athletes that got an opportunity
(10:03):
of a lifetime. You know, somebody room with a more
experienced Owen Franks or a Ryan Croddy or somebody of
that nature, and you're coming through our academy system. You
can't buy that. You know, that's the best person to
learn from about how to tour, how to prepare yourself,
(10:23):
how to conduct yourself. You can't buy that experience, and
you definitely can't buy it through training just here and
christ Chicks without doing a tour. So there's always costs
and benefits to these things, and it never comes down
to an overwhelming yes or no.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Golin you talk about the other teams that also looked
at this possibility, the other franchises within Super Rugby, It
might be a bit of an outside thought, but what
if two Super teams would have taken in season game overseas?
Has that been looked at? How profitab will that be?
(11:00):
And I suppose engined Ar might well have a look
at that as well, and go well, I don't know
about that, but is it a chance to be looked
at that?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So those sorts of things, I think they're absolutely on
the agenda. What can we how can we take the
game to different place? How we can take the club game,
because I think there's the international game, which is different again,
but I think the club game there is there's absolutely
appetite for it. You look at the European Championship and
the crowds that attend some of those matches up there,
and what's clear is that they are they are rugby fans,
(11:30):
so they love the game. And I reckon you could
take up a number of clubs north and you would
you do very very well in the Northern hemisphere. And
it's not just about the money, of course, it's also
about connecting with those fans. As I said, let's say
one point eight twenty percent of which are locally based fans.
(11:51):
And then suddenly that means you've got a lot up
there that if they're more engaged with you, they might
connect with you more, purchase more. You know, the same
sort of principle I think that we've heard from the
from New Zealand rugby commercial probably at a smaller scar,
but still still at scale and a scale that our
country probably can't afford. So what we've been working hard
(12:14):
in the super rugby space about you know, the Chiefs
and the Blues went up last year and played some
two preseason fixtures against Japanese teams. So I think what's
clear is that super rugby sides have the capacity to
connect with international audiences and that can be of benefit
to both the audiences and financially for the teams involved.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Do you wonder what the pushback be like from the
public if you took an in season super game a
derby away from New Zealand. I'm not quite sure if
I'd love it, but it could be not very profitable
and great to spread the word common Well.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
I guess in a way, you know, we all committed
to super roundom Melbourne as a growth market. Now that
didn't it probably didn't land as well, but it wasn't
through effort to try and grow the game in that state,
and so we took a super around there, and the
way the lottery worked, you know, some teams had to
(13:11):
take a home game there, and so that I think
we played the Highlanders over there last year or year before,
we end up with a derby over there, which was unfortunate,
really really unfortunate. But again, if you're you've got two
roles when you're when you're running a super rugby team,
you've got an obligation to the team and its fans.
(13:32):
You've also got an obligation to the game and the competition.
So sometimes to make a Super Round work in Melbourne
or somewhere else, you know that means somebody is going
to have to sacrifice something to go there. Now, you
don't want the same people sacrificing all the time. But
you know, we've all got an obligation to grow the
(13:52):
game and what a wonderful game it is. And you
see all the innovation that's come out of Super Rugby
specific in the last few years. It's starting to emanate
into other competitions. It's obvious that this is, you know,
an exciting PACIFICA and Pacific rim flavored competition that is
attractive to fans all over the place. So in some respects,
(14:14):
you don't want to You don't want to take your
whole competition offshore, that that would be a disaster. You
do want to remain connected to your fans, But exhibition
matches or the occasional match, I think it's the right
thing to do.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks.
They'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duncie Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
We'll joined now by CEO of Crusaders Rugby, Colon Manspreads. Colin,
welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
How are you mate?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Very very well talking to you around taking your brand
overseas and this is something that is very important in
a number of different sports, particularly here in New Zealand.
You did it with the Crusaders. You took the Crusaders
away for preseason games against Bristol and against Munster. I
suppose first question, what are the major considerations before you
(00:43):
hit go on that concept?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
So probably the most important things is that the number
of fans that are associated or like Super Rugby, that
are overseas, so Super the five New Zealand founding Super
Rugby clubs. It's quite attractive propositions when you get oversee.
So we got some research back that New Zealand Rugby
(01:09):
commercial did for us. So Craig Fenton engaged a researcher
and they did a little bit of work for the
five founding two per Abi clubs and what we learned
from that was that most of us have a fan
base of and we'll talk about all one level of
engagement for the moment, but just assume that it's just
(01:30):
reach somewhere between one point three and one point eight
million fans, of which only about twenty percent on average
of those five clubs were New Zealand based. So in
other words, for Crusaders, let's say it's one point eight
million engaged fans. Now there's different levels of engagement, but
engage fans, of which twenty percent of those were based
(01:51):
in the top of the South Island. So that was
the first sort of insight that we gathered. The second
was when we when it was explored and we tested
on a couple of clubs, and I think the classic
for US is Munster selling out a stadium forty four
thousand I think we I think forty two thousand seats
available and it's sold within the day. It shows you
(02:14):
that there is appeal for super rugby club brands in
the Northern Hemisphere, especially against those traditional European rugby Championship
or Premiership and i'd say even the top fourteen clubs,
so there was definitely demand from that side. Now, you're
not going to sell jerseys or merch or anything like
that to those people. If you're not there frequently, so
(02:41):
we might become the second favorite team club team of
some of the fans up there. So I think the
first thing is that we've got lots of fans in
different parts of the world, and that goes for all
of those five fanning Superraby clubs and they're all over
the place. And then we're also we've been working hard
on this potential well hopefully if past potential World Club
(03:03):
Cup and you know, later on twenty eight maybe and
that's you know, you're going to have to start getting
some rivalries going for that to happen, and that might
have more commercial commercial value. So and then lastly is
our population in New Zealand doesn't necessarily so preseasons tend
to cost us money. You know, you tend to take
(03:26):
them to the regions to connect with their fans in
the regions, which is exactly the right thing to do,
but that usually comes at quite a bit of cost.
You're flying another team and your tickets are very cheap generally,
and you're not covering costs, and so it comes at
quite a cost. And you can go up fill a
couple of big stadiums up and over two games and
through that pay for your flights to and fro and
(03:49):
accommodation and your preparation up there.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
So.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
It comes some cost local engagement, so you've got to
be careful about that. But yeah, it's we've got fans there.
It's clear we've got fans there, and we've got people
interested in watching us play color Mansbrey.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Is it morally sound to do that? You mentioned the fans.
Know there was pushback here when you did that, saying hey,
don't ignore us, we are your grass roots. Was there
a feeling around that maybe you shouldn't have done something
like this or without a choice when you consider the
income generated.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Well, it's you know, for a club like us, that
the delta or the difference in the revenue is substantial
enough to make it worthwhile. Now, if we were an
organization that was recording, you know, multimillion dollars worth of
profit and we were pillaging our fans for for every
(04:47):
cent they're worth that, then maybe you know, you'd say,
don't explore those things. But there is revenue in different locations,
and that revenue goes somewhere to underwriting the costs of
running a business in New Zealand. So you've got to
be a bit careful about just turning your nose up
those opportunities. But it does come at some cost. So
(05:09):
we tried what we did, play a local game here
and it probably it took a bit of its hole
in terms of pre season preparation. So so you know,
we proved the concept and I wouldn't roll it off
the table in future. I think there's there's absolutely demand
up there. And and actually, you know, I know other
(05:32):
countries I've traveled to with Crusaders. It's surprising the number
of fans you've got in those places. So it's sort
of like, just because somebody lives in christ Church, for example,
does that make them a better fan than somebody who
traveled across the Strait to watch us play against Munster
and buys an away membership and merchandise every year? You
(05:55):
know who's the most who's which fan is the best fan?
So to speak, It's sort of it's hard to You've
got to be careful about judging.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Colin Mansbridge joined us by and large though it was
a worthwhile expedition. You said there will be more of it.
Is that confirmed? You will actually dip your foot back
and this again, and I'm presuming tell me if I'm
wrong that the margins were so good, you're be insane
not to that there's money in Thembar Hills.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Definitely, this was for us a proof of concept, so
we didn't come back with buckets of gold for this one.
We tested, and we did it in a low risk manner,
so all of our costs were covered. Its a very
low risk exercise we undertook. But my understanding from the
(06:46):
research and the analysis we did on our trip and
the costs and how we would cover it is that
there would be potential for clubs to travel to the
North and do reasonably well and underwrite some of their
preseason costs as well. Now, are you going to go
up every year? Absolutely not. Do you want to go
up or you know, maybe even bring a side down here.
(07:10):
But again it's a smaller market with less capacity to pay,
so that's the thing you got to keep in mind.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
What about pushback, Colin, but touched on that before. You
would have got a fair amount, i'd suggest, from New Zealanders,
from Crusaders fans. How much did you get?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
What was it like?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Is it okay to suppose take that on board?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Can you absorb that it's actually surprising how a little
pushback we got. What's clear is take the Crusaders outside
of the Canterbury region, where there's a capacity to travel
with not too much difficulty to get in to watch
the Crusaders playing christ Church. Outside of the Canterbury region,
(07:51):
there is demand for us to play in those regions.
But again, you know, quite often if you think about
even part would be the same sky stadium as the
same They're big bits of infrastructure that do need to
be utilized. So taking away games in season is difficult
because those the deals that you have to do to
(08:12):
support those venues and underwrite their cost of operation mean
that you're probably committing most of your matches, your home
games in a domestic competition or in a Sugarebbia competition,
you're committing them to that venue. So and then so
you tend to use pre season as your opportunity to
connect with your fans and take a team there. But
(08:35):
you know, we managed to get a game in and
against the Highlanders, and I think you know we probably
learned to process. So we will continue to explore it.
We won't give it away now. Of course, it does
come at some expense you've got to what's the nature
of the squad that you take. How much travel are
they been exposed to. I know there's a lot of
(08:56):
young men that were grown a lot through that experience.
So so yeah, we might see the diviends and that
in the year or two is time.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Man's CEO of Crusaders joins me, And that really does
lead on to next question, the effect on players, both
positively and negatively. I'm talking in their mental space and
also mere fatigue preseason. You're putting a lot on these players,
Aren't it worth it?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Well, well, that's that's the big challenge for that's a
big challenge in terms of travel. But if you look
at the group that we took and and and the
group that didn't travel, and and you look at the
development opportunity that arose for some of those younger men
who so it wasn't I wouldn't say it was a
(09:42):
team littered with all blacks, for example, or all black
fifteen players. So so how much travel had they done
that year? Probably not a lot. And so you know,
we weren't we weren't burning people out. And conversely, there
were a lot of younger athletes that got an opportunity
(10:03):
of a lifetime. You know, somebody room with a more
experienced Owen Franks or a Ryan Croddy or somebody of
that nature, and you're coming through our academy system. You
can't buy that. You know, that's the best person to
learn from about how to tour, how to prepare yourself,
(10:23):
how to conduct yourself. You can't buy that experience, and
you definitely can't buy it through training just here and
christ Chicks without doing a tour. So there's always costs
and benefits to these things, and it never comes down
to an overwhelming yes or no.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Golin you talk about the other teams that also looked
at this possibility, the other franchises within Super Rugby, It
might be a bit of an outside thought, but what
if two Super teams would have taken in season game overseas?
Has that been looked at? How profitab will that be?
(11:00):
And I suppose engined Ar might well have a look
at that as well, and go well, I don't know
about that, but is it a chance to be looked
at that?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So those sorts of things, I think they're absolutely on
the agenda. What can we how can we take the
game to different place? How we can take the club game,
because I think there's the international game, which is different again,
but I think the club game there is there's absolutely
appetite for it. You look at the European Championship and
the crowds that attend some of those matches up there,
and what's clear is that they are they are rugby fans,
(11:30):
so they love the game. And I reckon you could
take up a number of clubs north and you would
you do very very well in the Northern hemisphere. And
it's not just about the money, of course, it's also
about connecting with those fans. As I said, let's say
one point eight twenty percent of which are locally based fans.
(11:51):
And then suddenly that means you've got a lot up
there that if they're more engaged with you, they might
connect with you more, purchase more. You know, the same
sort of principle I think that we've heard from the
from New Zealand rugby commercial probably at a smaller scar,
but still still at scale and a scale that our
country probably can't afford. So what we've been working hard
(12:14):
in the super rugby space about you know, the Chiefs
and the Blues went up last year and played some
two preseason fixtures against Japanese teams. So I think what's
clear is that super rugby sides have the capacity to
connect with international audiences and that can be of benefit
to both the audiences and financially for the teams involved.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Do you wonder what the pushback be like from the
public if you took an in season super game a
derby away from New Zealand. I'm not quite sure if
I'd love it, but it could be not very profitable
and great to spread the word common Well.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
I guess in a way, you know, we all committed
to super roundom Melbourne as a growth market. Now that
didn't it probably didn't land as well, but it wasn't
through effort to try and grow the game in that state,
and so we took a super around there, and the
way the lottery worked, you know, some teams had to
(13:11):
take a home game there, and so that I think
we played the Highlanders over there last year or year before,
we end up with a derby over there, which was unfortunate,
really really unfortunate. But again, if you're you've got two
roles when you're when you're running a super rugby team,
you've got an obligation to the team and its fans.
(13:32):
You've also got an obligation to the game and the competition.
So sometimes to make a Super Round work in Melbourne
or somewhere else, you know that means somebody is going
to have to sacrifice something to go there. Now, you
don't want the same people sacrificing all the time. But
you know, we've all got an obligation to grow the
(13:52):
game and what a wonderful game it is. And you
see all the innovation that's come out of Super Rugby
specific in the last few years. It's starting to emanate
into other competitions. It's obvious that this is, you know,
an exciting PACIFICA and Pacific rim flavored competition that is
attractive to fans all over the place. So in some respects,
(14:14):
you don't want to You don't want to take your
whole competition offshore, that that would be a disaster. You
do want to remain connected to your fans, But exhibition
matches or the occasional match, I think it's the right
thing to do.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks.
They'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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