January 28, 2025 • 10 mins
The All Blacks Sevens' most successful coach is pointing to the disestablishment of domestic tournaments after the shock loss to Uruguay at the Perth World Series event.
Sir Gordon Tietjens believes while the smaller nations are investing more into the rugby's shorter format, New Zealand have a clear issue with depth.
Tietjens says the Condor Sevens - for secondary school players - is the only remaining tournament of any standing.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duncie Wildegrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That'd be yeah, good evening, does he How are you going?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I'm going very very well, a little shocked, maybe not
shockn or, but having Uruguay not only beat New Zealand
but beat CG in per sevens. It's the world's changing,
is it not? Should we be really freaked out by this?
Is there a panic button to be hit?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I don't think there's a panic button to be to
start pressing. I think well, on any any given day,
and if you look at the twelve teams that are
currently in the World Series, on their day, any team
can beat any team. The men's competition is very, very competitive,
and Uruguay was one of those teams that performed exceedingly
well in the Challenger Series last year to qualify for
(00:52):
the World Series. Kenya was another one of those teams
that pushed New Zealand very very close as well, you know,
and they're putting a lot of more emphasis perhaps should
I say, and perhaps what we are and we gave
a sevens, I mean ventially based in their countries. They
work tremendously hard. They work particularly hard to qualify for
the World Series. Now they're in there and they want
(01:15):
to stay there. And you look at the Spanish team.
The Spanish team's actually co leaders in the World Series
at the moment. There's four of them sitting on I
think forty eight points or something like that, and which
for tweet TG and who would have thought that Spain
would be at the top of that ladder now? And
they are so.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Resource wise you said, they're pouring a lot at it.
Some of these countries, can you say, on not keep
up with that or they haven't got what is required
to keep up with that. They've caught up and we
can't go any further. Is they seem to see what
you're saying.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Oh no, they're certainly, you know, in terms of the
analysis done on the other sevens, every yes and C
coach put they emphasize in different ways are supposed to
get the best out of their players. And I've always
said our game is based around conditioning, you know, And
there's a lot of series around players being over worked
now and I think honestly, it's a game that's you're
(02:07):
challenged mentally and you're challenged physically. If you want to
be the best and I look at our side and
I just we just don't have that same emphasis on
the sevens game. And I say that because we have
no national tournament. Now where do the players once I've
finished with the Condor sevens, because the Condal sevens is
(02:28):
really the only tournament and our secondary school players that
we have you know of any of any standing, I suppose,
And that's where we go and look as coaches to
try and find the next youngster to come to the
your wax seven team. But when we had the Queenstown sevens,
the provincial sevens, Northern regions, Southern regions, you know, we
can't started to give players perhaps some hope of making
(02:50):
the national side. But we don't have that now, so
they go to pfence And this is.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
A pathway situation essentially, is what you're saying. You get
to a particular and you stop, you can't go any further.
Who holds ultimate responsibility for that?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Gordon Wow, he's in a rugby unit. I mean when
you look at it from the World Series, and I
know that in the World Series they've lost a billion dollars.
I think just in the World Series alone, going through
the tournaments, they've reduced it from I think twelve tournaments
to seven tournaments now there's no sevens have become a
wealth games. So a lot of players, you know, and
(03:25):
in the women's case, some of them are going off
the league. Some of the players here now I gott
to put more emphasis into being a fifteen a side player.
So it's just it's set across roads, believe, at a
cross raids on how do we because they're still in
an Olympic sports and for a lot of players out there,
their dreamers will be an Olympian I mean, I look
(03:46):
at the Australian women's team. You know, they lost their
two best players and the tournament just in the rek
weekend in Perth, and they've got all these new young
players that are bringing through. They've got quite a good
system in Australia now and of course they turn around,
but our Blackburn sevens, you know, in a great final.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It was outrageous, it was stuff, it really was, and
right about the two of their best players not then,
so they've got.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
That a new nineteen year old out on the wing there. Look,
she's a tremendous player of the or the final, you know,
and but they so they're doing something in Australia. That's
bringing a lot of players through with a lot of depth.
You know, we're going to lose a few of our
players out of the Black ten seven soon, certainly at
the end of this horse hereies because some of them
are going off the league and they may come back
(04:35):
during the Olympic years or something. Perhaps I don't know,
but I know for instance, in the men's program, it's
it's tough at the moment, and when you lose to
teams like you know, Uruguay and they turn around a
beat FG as well, it sort of says something that
there is a lot of countries wanting more emphasis into
the game of sevens and they are a danger. Let's
(04:55):
face at South Africa. Sorry, Agentina won the tournament the
weekend comfortably, very easily. They won the final way forty
odd points against Australia.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
There's always so Gordon Titchens joined, there's always been an
arm wrestle obvious or underlying between ends are internally with
sevens versus fifteens? Is there much more of a golf now,
do you think? Which is why they just don't have
those pathwords, all the pathways. The focus is solely on
the fifteens and the sevens again being left poor cousins.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
It is well, and I suppose as I go back
to my time back in the day, I suppose if
you if you put it that way, was with a
lot of players that they used the sevens game as
a launching pad to go on to be a super
rugby player. They'd be coming all back, you know. And
to me, that's how it should still be. There should
be still opportunities there. And I'm not saying that we
(05:49):
haven't got the I just don't believe we've got the
depth at the moment. We lost a lot of good
players and Scott Curry finished up, Sam Dixon finished up.
You know, that's just all finished up at the same time,
and we should have been developing newer players around that
time before they finished up. So then there was then
(06:09):
there was some players coming through and that's how we
used to do it. But now they all finished at
the same time, which has made it pretty tough. So
we've got a relatively young and experienced team and a
series of the moment except for two or three of
them that have got a number of surnaments under their belt.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Out of sight, out of mind to a degree as well,
since the sevens experience here in New Zealand they're from
well and on to Hamilton, since that disappeared a lot
of the games in the middle of the night on
the other side of the world. I wonder if you
said a nothing a little detached from this game as well.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I totally agree with you. It's just there, isn't
you know, the same emphasis there and losing our own tournament,
then the will and the want and the drive to
go and watch these these cinnaments are not there anymore.
So you've got to venture offshore and go to the
Hong Kong's and in some cases like in the weekend,
just the Perths have meet their very first sevens tournament
(07:04):
at the international level. I mean, it's pretty hard sometimes
to sit back and see how it actually took off,
but it certainly looked like it was fairly good in
the sense that they was getting to support there and
even better when Australia made made the you know, the
final in both programs, the men and the women's program.
And we've currently got a New Zealand coach and Liam
(07:26):
Vara who's coaching the men's. Australian men's even seen and I.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Got absolutely flogged in that final. It was score for
the Australia.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I feel, I really feel for Tumassia because Unassia is
certainly it was a great plass for me as a
he was wonderful in a sense his knowledge of the game.
He worked particularly hard as a player. He knows the
levels they need to get to. But I don't think
that at the moment that he's getting the support that
he really needs, because I truly believe he could be
(07:58):
an outstanding, if not an outstanding coach now. But when
you haven't got that depth around you, you know, you've
got to basically get out and put the cattle that
you have out on the park, and you get injuries
and you haven't got that death. So therefore you're going
to take a few hits. And at the moment, for
some must you've taken a few hits, which is sad.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
You mentioned the global financial issues that the game has
right now. Billion dollars is the game itself and a
world scale starting to staggers that got a way forward.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Well oh yeah, I mean it's quite frightening in a
way because I think the game has certainly it's got
to stay. I mean, you think go right throughout Asia,
in China and I was involved with the Chinese team
for a while there in the last six months, and
they love the game of sevens. The Asian Series to
them is everything, you know because they use those you
(08:54):
know in the Asian seven Series is to qualify for
the Olympics, et cetera. You know, from the Asia from Asia,
So it'll never go away for sure. Even teams like Korea,
they are pretty good at the game. And in China,
I know they're building their women's team and now they're
going to put a lot of emphasis into their men's team.
So it's okay, And that's side of the world. But
another part of the world where we're falling away and
(09:17):
if we haven't got a World Series or will you
be who knows, it's going to be pretty tough. And
I think in the next Sydney, the next to twelve
eighty months, I think there'd be a lot of decisions
made around sevens.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Your confidence that it will bounce back. You said it's
not panic button stage yet, but there are a number
of issues surrounding the game. Can they be rectified? Is
it all up to New Zealand Rugby?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Do you give them no, you know, Jasi are worth
noting too. In the last two Olympics, especially the last
Olympics in Paris, you could not get a seat to
any of the sessions and any of the days in
the men's program. That's how it's how popular it was.
It was amazing, you know, the game. The game, if
you look at it and right around the world, is
(10:02):
a great game to be part of, you know. And
and if you enter their Olympics and you went to
some of those sessions and there are some great games,
then to me, this is why should the game be failing?
But it's not at the moment. It's it's not working
for us. And for for whatever reason, I don't know
whether we'll well, whether we'll keep it or not. We may,
(10:23):
I certainly hope, and you're not. We're talking together in
two years time that the game is still out there
and that we keep building because it's an opportunity for
athletes and while it's an Olympic sport, I think there's
always a chance.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And on that uplifting note, and I want to leave
it like that because that's much better for everybody's soul.
So good intentions. Thanks very much for your time. You
have a tremendous twenty five mate.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Go well.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Cheers, Douzie, Thank you mate.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duncie Wildegrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That'd be yeah, good evening, does he How are you going?
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I'm going very very well, a little shocked, maybe not
shockn or, but having Uruguay not only beat New Zealand
but beat CG in per sevens. It's the world's changing,
is it not? Should we be really freaked out by this?
Is there a panic button to be hit?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I don't think there's a panic button to be to
start pressing. I think well, on any any given day,
and if you look at the twelve teams that are
currently in the World Series, on their day, any team
can beat any team. The men's competition is very, very competitive,
and Uruguay was one of those teams that performed exceedingly
well in the Challenger Series last year to qualify for
(00:52):
the World Series. Kenya was another one of those teams
that pushed New Zealand very very close as well, you know,
and they're putting a lot of more emphasis perhaps should
I say, and perhaps what we are and we gave
a sevens, I mean ventially based in their countries. They
work tremendously hard. They work particularly hard to qualify for
the World Series. Now they're in there and they want
(01:15):
to stay there. And you look at the Spanish team.
The Spanish team's actually co leaders in the World Series
at the moment. There's four of them sitting on I
think forty eight points or something like that, and which
for tweet TG and who would have thought that Spain
would be at the top of that ladder now? And
they are so.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Resource wise you said, they're pouring a lot at it.
Some of these countries, can you say, on not keep
up with that or they haven't got what is required
to keep up with that. They've caught up and we
can't go any further. Is they seem to see what
you're saying.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Oh no, they're certainly, you know, in terms of the
analysis done on the other sevens, every yes and C
coach put they emphasize in different ways are supposed to
get the best out of their players. And I've always
said our game is based around conditioning, you know, And
there's a lot of series around players being over worked
now and I think honestly, it's a game that's you're
(02:07):
challenged mentally and you're challenged physically. If you want to
be the best and I look at our side and
I just we just don't have that same emphasis on
the sevens game. And I say that because we have
no national tournament. Now where do the players once I've
finished with the Condor sevens, because the Condal sevens is
(02:28):
really the only tournament and our secondary school players that
we have you know of any of any standing, I suppose,
And that's where we go and look as coaches to
try and find the next youngster to come to the
your wax seven team. But when we had the Queenstown sevens,
the provincial sevens, Northern regions, Southern regions, you know, we
can't started to give players perhaps some hope of making
(02:50):
the national side. But we don't have that now, so
they go to pfence And this is.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
A pathway situation essentially, is what you're saying. You get
to a particular and you stop, you can't go any further.
Who holds ultimate responsibility for that?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Gordon Wow, he's in a rugby unit. I mean when
you look at it from the World Series, and I
know that in the World Series they've lost a billion dollars.
I think just in the World Series alone, going through
the tournaments, they've reduced it from I think twelve tournaments
to seven tournaments now there's no sevens have become a
wealth games. So a lot of players, you know, and
(03:25):
in the women's case, some of them are going off
the league. Some of the players here now I gott
to put more emphasis into being a fifteen a side player.
So it's just it's set across roads, believe, at a
cross raids on how do we because they're still in
an Olympic sports and for a lot of players out there,
their dreamers will be an Olympian I mean, I look
(03:46):
at the Australian women's team. You know, they lost their
two best players and the tournament just in the rek
weekend in Perth, and they've got all these new young
players that are bringing through. They've got quite a good
system in Australia now and of course they turn around,
but our Blackburn sevens, you know, in a great final.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It was outrageous, it was stuff, it really was, and
right about the two of their best players not then,
so they've got.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
That a new nineteen year old out on the wing there. Look,
she's a tremendous player of the or the final, you know,
and but they so they're doing something in Australia. That's
bringing a lot of players through with a lot of depth.
You know, we're going to lose a few of our
players out of the Black ten seven soon, certainly at
the end of this horse hereies because some of them
are going off the league and they may come back
(04:35):
during the Olympic years or something. Perhaps I don't know,
but I know for instance, in the men's program, it's
it's tough at the moment, and when you lose to
teams like you know, Uruguay and they turn around a
beat FG as well, it sort of says something that
there is a lot of countries wanting more emphasis into
the game of sevens and they are a danger. Let's
(04:55):
face at South Africa. Sorry, Agentina won the tournament the
weekend comfortably, very easily. They won the final way forty
odd points against Australia.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
There's always so Gordon Titchens joined, there's always been an
arm wrestle obvious or underlying between ends are internally with
sevens versus fifteens? Is there much more of a golf now,
do you think? Which is why they just don't have
those pathwords, all the pathways. The focus is solely on
the fifteens and the sevens again being left poor cousins.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
It is well, and I suppose as I go back
to my time back in the day, I suppose if
you if you put it that way, was with a
lot of players that they used the sevens game as
a launching pad to go on to be a super
rugby player. They'd be coming all back, you know. And
to me, that's how it should still be. There should
be still opportunities there. And I'm not saying that we
(05:49):
haven't got the I just don't believe we've got the
depth at the moment. We lost a lot of good
players and Scott Curry finished up, Sam Dixon finished up.
You know, that's just all finished up at the same time,
and we should have been developing newer players around that
time before they finished up. So then there was then
(06:09):
there was some players coming through and that's how we
used to do it. But now they all finished at
the same time, which has made it pretty tough. So
we've got a relatively young and experienced team and a
series of the moment except for two or three of
them that have got a number of surnaments under their belt.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Out of sight, out of mind to a degree as well,
since the sevens experience here in New Zealand they're from
well and on to Hamilton, since that disappeared a lot
of the games in the middle of the night on
the other side of the world. I wonder if you
said a nothing a little detached from this game as well.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I totally agree with you. It's just there, isn't
you know, the same emphasis there and losing our own tournament,
then the will and the want and the drive to
go and watch these these cinnaments are not there anymore.
So you've got to venture offshore and go to the
Hong Kong's and in some cases like in the weekend,
just the Perths have meet their very first sevens tournament
(07:04):
at the international level. I mean, it's pretty hard sometimes
to sit back and see how it actually took off,
but it certainly looked like it was fairly good in
the sense that they was getting to support there and
even better when Australia made made the you know, the
final in both programs, the men and the women's program.
And we've currently got a New Zealand coach and Liam
(07:26):
Vara who's coaching the men's. Australian men's even seen and I.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Got absolutely flogged in that final. It was score for
the Australia.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I feel, I really feel for Tumassia because Unassia is
certainly it was a great plass for me as a
he was wonderful in a sense his knowledge of the game.
He worked particularly hard as a player. He knows the
levels they need to get to. But I don't think
that at the moment that he's getting the support that
he really needs, because I truly believe he could be
(07:58):
an outstanding, if not an outstanding coach now. But when
you haven't got that depth around you, you know, you've
got to basically get out and put the cattle that
you have out on the park, and you get injuries
and you haven't got that death. So therefore you're going
to take a few hits. And at the moment, for
some must you've taken a few hits, which is sad.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
You mentioned the global financial issues that the game has
right now. Billion dollars is the game itself and a
world scale starting to staggers that got a way forward.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Well oh yeah, I mean it's quite frightening in a
way because I think the game has certainly it's got
to stay. I mean, you think go right throughout Asia,
in China and I was involved with the Chinese team
for a while there in the last six months, and
they love the game of sevens. The Asian Series to
them is everything, you know because they use those you
(08:54):
know in the Asian seven Series is to qualify for
the Olympics, et cetera. You know, from the Asia from Asia,
So it'll never go away for sure. Even teams like Korea,
they are pretty good at the game. And in China,
I know they're building their women's team and now they're
going to put a lot of emphasis into their men's team.
So it's okay, And that's side of the world. But
another part of the world where we're falling away and
(09:17):
if we haven't got a World Series or will you
be who knows, it's going to be pretty tough. And
I think in the next Sydney, the next to twelve
eighty months, I think there'd be a lot of decisions
made around sevens.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Your confidence that it will bounce back. You said it's
not panic button stage yet, but there are a number
of issues surrounding the game. Can they be rectified? Is
it all up to New Zealand Rugby?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Do you give them no, you know, Jasi are worth
noting too. In the last two Olympics, especially the last
Olympics in Paris, you could not get a seat to
any of the sessions and any of the days in
the men's program. That's how it's how popular it was.
It was amazing, you know, the game. The game, if
you look at it and right around the world, is
(10:02):
a great game to be part of, you know. And
and if you enter their Olympics and you went to
some of those sessions and there are some great games,
then to me, this is why should the game be failing?
But it's not at the moment. It's it's not working
for us. And for for whatever reason, I don't know
whether we'll well, whether we'll keep it or not. We may,
(10:23):
I certainly hope, and you're not. We're talking together in
two years time that the game is still out there
and that we keep building because it's an opportunity for
athletes and while it's an Olympic sport, I think there's
always a chance.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And on that uplifting note, and I want to leave
it like that because that's much better for everybody's soul.
So good intentions. Thanks very much for your time. You
have a tremendous twenty five mate.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Go well.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Cheers, Douzie, Thank you mate.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks
it'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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