April 3, 2025 • 10 mins
Despite the nostalgia attached to South African involvement, though, their time in Super Rugby is perhaps viewed with rose-tinted glasses.
At the time of their exit in 2020, it had been nine seasons since a South African team won the title. What’s more, with South African sides staging matches during the day, touring Kiwi sides often had little New Zealand broadcast audience.
Suggestions that lack of exposure to South Africa at Super Rugby level has left the All Blacks underprepared hold weight, but it’s also worth pointing out that New Zealand both start and finish their test season against Northern Hemisphere opposition, with the Springboks sandwiched between as part of the Rugby Championship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
South African Super Rugby doesn't exist anymore, hasn't for five years,
joining us now a former all black coach coach in
South Africa and those helcyon days, Laurie mains good evening.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Laurie evening, Darcy, how are.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
You very well? And it's a big anniversary. Isn't it
five years since South Africa had a team in super rugby?
It doesn't seem like that long, does it? Since through COVID,
the South African's left the setup. How missed are they?
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Well, it doesn't seem that long.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
But I've got to say since COVID, super rugby's taken
a big leap forward, you know, with the introduction of
Miana Pacifica and so on, and in Fiji it's much
more a regional competition now and I think we let
South Africa go out of our minds fairly easily.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Have we missed it as far as the engagement the
exchanges go, because we've seen what's South Africa the national
team have done of recent years and they're right at
the top of the tree right now. We were lacking
because of a lack of game time with their super teams.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
No, No, I don't think so at all.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
They're on top of a pile at the moment, much
as the All Blacks were a few years ago when
we had all those really world class players and we
were almost unbeatable. And I think South Africa's in that moment,
in that position at the moment where they've got very
(01:51):
strong players. I'll use one example, Ivan Etzabeth, who's arguably
the best lock in the world, or certainly very close
to it, but he must be mid thirties now he's
gone over the hill, and the same with quite a
number of their players that have been there a long time.
I'm not sure they're going to be at their best
at the next World Cup. And we've seen Australia in
(02:14):
the past and the All Blacks for that matter, suffer
at a World Cup because they've tried to keep players
there too long.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
And that may be the case with South Africa, but
it's understandable. Such as the quality and the way they
managed to lift themselves for major tournaments. We've all been
watching it, we've all seen it.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Well, that's the mark I've very experienced mature players and
obviously they've got to have ability and they've got to
be able to accurately identify the type of rugby that
best suits them.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
And I think Russia.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Rasmus the coach of South Africa is a pretty crafty guy.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
I had him as captain and one of my teams
over there, and he's clever, he's crafty. Don't always agree.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
With these methods, but yeah, no, he is getting the
best out of that team at the moment.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
When you look at the traditional strengths of South African rugby,
and that's like the massive slabs that they've got up front.
And this is something that New Zealand want to try
and counter that hasn't been lacking in New Zealand, that
lack of big men who play very well on the type.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Well, we're big enough in the front row. We I No,
I don't actually think that. You know, I had a
very light all black pack, you know when we were
performing very well in the ninety five World Cup. And
I think now the way that and we did, we
were able to because we sped the game up. Now,
(03:47):
I think with the rule changes, if they're going to
go through to full international rugby and be refereed the
same as they are in our super game. Then that's
going to suit the All Blacks and not be so
favorable for big Ford.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Packs like the spring Box have.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Counter to us missing their exchanges up the front. How
much do you think they're missing the fact that we
play this different style of rugby. Do they maybe miss
us more than we miss them, Laurie.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
I would suggest that that would be the case, and
particularly now that the Australian teams are much stronger than
they've been. They've got their act together. It's first time
for a very long time and our competition has been
fiercely contested and it's great to see the Australian team
(04:40):
strong and not being an automatic will shover and they're
playing some really good rugby too. So combined with the
rule changes and the Miana Pacifica and Fiji and the
way we're trying to play the game in our super competition,
(05:01):
rugby's moving forward. I was getting bored with it previously,
to be honest, but this year I've had a bit
of a rejuvenation and you know my attitude to watching games.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Do you think the lack of travel is helping the competition,
because you think it was Hakuari's for a while, there,
sun Wolves, all the South African teams. It was a
destroyer of athletes, wasn't. You can't maintain that, surely.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
No, And I think I think both the Australian team
and the All Black teams are going to be much
better off for it. Yes, it was very difficult for
those travels, just as it was you know, with the
time zone changes as well and the altitude and everything else,
just as it was for South Africa to come to
New Zealand it was. It was difficult and disruptive, you know,
(05:54):
to their normality. And I think our competition has moved
ahead much faster because of that. And there I think
there is another factor. I think think that our current
crop of All Blacks and top level players are gonna
last longer because it's not quite the same disruption to
(06:15):
their normal lives and definitely their bodies are going to
cope with it better than with all that extra travel.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
The Ossies have lift their game, as he said, and
seeper Rugby this he has been fantastic halfway through the competition.
She's a rip snorter. I mean, look at the Crusaders
getting rolled by Mowana. It's another story. But the fact
that Australia have just had one of their teams taken
away so they had to concentrate their talent, which is
a small base's that's a huge amount to deal with, it,
(06:45):
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
I think it's made a significant difference to them. But
I also think that Joe Smith's method message down to
the Australian coach. I've got no doubt that he has
helped the Australian super coaches lift their game a bit
and certainly the players, even if only with the Australian
(07:08):
players that he's been coaching, taking the message back to
their super teams. But it is definitely happening, and I
think there's quite a number of Australian players who previously
I didn't rate that much that I'm seeing now is
potentially very strong international.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Players anticipation when it comes to Spring Box All Black Tests.
I suppose it brings a little more to the party
as we're not seeing them all the time, and of
course coming up this year doesn't get much bigger, does it.
Eden park that unbeaten record and here comes South Africa.
Do we need a wee bit more prep than them
just coming over to muggers.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
No, I don't think we need more preparation that. When
you watch some of these super games now, they are
test level intensity and physicality and in many cases played
at a lot faster place pace than you would expect
to test me to be played at. So you know,
(08:09):
I'm not too concerned about it. It may be another
year before this all black team is getting to its best.
We've got to give Raise the time, you know, to
get to get everybody in his way of playing, and
to develop the new players that he's had to bring in.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
But I think we'll be ready for them this year.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
The difference and he touched on are before the speed
of play, the interpretation of the rules by Southern Hemisphere
rugby hoping maybe that gets transferred internationally. But the way
we're running the game over here, does that tend to
a decent international game. I know you've got a problem
(08:50):
with the way the front row and alike has been adjudicated,
and that's possibly falling right into their trap.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I don't think I don't think it is.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
We've got some pretty skillful, knowledgeable, tough coaches in New
Zealand and the issues that you know, I I see
with scrummaging, they will be working on it with the referees,
I'm sure, because there's been too many mistakes made at
scrum time and I don't want to dwell on that
now by referees. But so many teams use the scrum
(09:21):
to win matches and get penalties, kick it into the
corner and all over for a trial.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I've been going on about this.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
For a few years and it hasn't improved this year,
but I think it will, and I just hope that
our coaches have got a good opportunity to help coach
the referees so that they know what's going on in
the scrum. You know, there's one thing I would mention here.
(09:48):
I think referees have got to have a little bit
more patience at scrum time. There has been an improvement
this year. There's been a number of scrums getting reset.
I think the very nature of scrums is such that
you are going to have to have accept reset scrums
because so often a scrum can go down or screw
(10:10):
or whatever, and referees have been in the habit of
just sticking their arm in the air and penalizing someone.
While I think they've got to tolerated a bit more,
warn the players whom they think are the offenders, and
then set another scrum.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news talks
they'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
South African Super Rugby doesn't exist anymore, hasn't for five years,
joining us now a former all black coach coach in
South Africa and those helcyon days, Laurie mains good evening.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Laurie evening, Darcy, how are.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
You very well? And it's a big anniversary. Isn't it
five years since South Africa had a team in super rugby?
It doesn't seem like that long, does it? Since through COVID,
the South African's left the setup. How missed are they?
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Well, it doesn't seem that long.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
But I've got to say since COVID, super rugby's taken
a big leap forward, you know, with the introduction of
Miana Pacifica and so on, and in Fiji it's much
more a regional competition now and I think we let
South Africa go out of our minds fairly easily.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Have we missed it as far as the engagement the
exchanges go, because we've seen what's South Africa the national
team have done of recent years and they're right at
the top of the tree right now. We were lacking
because of a lack of game time with their super teams.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
No, No, I don't think so at all.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
They're on top of a pile at the moment, much
as the All Blacks were a few years ago when
we had all those really world class players and we
were almost unbeatable. And I think South Africa's in that moment,
in that position at the moment where they've got very
(01:51):
strong players. I'll use one example, Ivan Etzabeth, who's arguably
the best lock in the world, or certainly very close
to it, but he must be mid thirties now he's
gone over the hill, and the same with quite a
number of their players that have been there a long time.
I'm not sure they're going to be at their best
at the next World Cup. And we've seen Australia in
(02:14):
the past and the All Blacks for that matter, suffer
at a World Cup because they've tried to keep players
there too long.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
And that may be the case with South Africa, but
it's understandable. Such as the quality and the way they
managed to lift themselves for major tournaments. We've all been
watching it, we've all seen it.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Well, that's the mark I've very experienced mature players and
obviously they've got to have ability and they've got to
be able to accurately identify the type of rugby that
best suits them.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
And I think Russia.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Rasmus the coach of South Africa is a pretty crafty guy.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
I had him as captain and one of my teams
over there, and he's clever, he's crafty. Don't always agree.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
With these methods, but yeah, no, he is getting the
best out of that team at the moment.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
When you look at the traditional strengths of South African rugby,
and that's like the massive slabs that they've got up front.
And this is something that New Zealand want to try
and counter that hasn't been lacking in New Zealand, that
lack of big men who play very well on the type.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Well, we're big enough in the front row. We I No,
I don't actually think that. You know, I had a
very light all black pack, you know when we were
performing very well in the ninety five World Cup. And
I think now the way that and we did, we
were able to because we sped the game up. Now,
(03:47):
I think with the rule changes, if they're going to
go through to full international rugby and be refereed the
same as they are in our super game. Then that's
going to suit the All Blacks and not be so
favorable for big Ford.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Packs like the spring Box have.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Counter to us missing their exchanges up the front. How
much do you think they're missing the fact that we
play this different style of rugby. Do they maybe miss
us more than we miss them, Laurie.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
I would suggest that that would be the case, and
particularly now that the Australian teams are much stronger than
they've been. They've got their act together. It's first time
for a very long time and our competition has been
fiercely contested and it's great to see the Australian team
(04:40):
strong and not being an automatic will shover and they're
playing some really good rugby too. So combined with the
rule changes and the Miana Pacifica and Fiji and the
way we're trying to play the game in our super competition,
(05:01):
rugby's moving forward. I was getting bored with it previously,
to be honest, but this year I've had a bit
of a rejuvenation and you know my attitude to watching games.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Do you think the lack of travel is helping the competition,
because you think it was Hakuari's for a while, there,
sun Wolves, all the South African teams. It was a
destroyer of athletes, wasn't. You can't maintain that, surely.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
No, And I think I think both the Australian team
and the All Black teams are going to be much
better off for it. Yes, it was very difficult for
those travels, just as it was you know, with the
time zone changes as well and the altitude and everything else,
just as it was for South Africa to come to
New Zealand it was. It was difficult and disruptive, you know,
(05:54):
to their normality. And I think our competition has moved
ahead much faster because of that. And there I think
there is another factor. I think think that our current
crop of All Blacks and top level players are gonna
last longer because it's not quite the same disruption to
(06:15):
their normal lives and definitely their bodies are going to
cope with it better than with all that extra travel.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
The Ossies have lift their game, as he said, and
seeper Rugby this he has been fantastic halfway through the competition.
She's a rip snorter. I mean, look at the Crusaders
getting rolled by Mowana. It's another story. But the fact
that Australia have just had one of their teams taken
away so they had to concentrate their talent, which is
a small base's that's a huge amount to deal with, it,
(06:45):
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
I think it's made a significant difference to them. But
I also think that Joe Smith's method message down to
the Australian coach. I've got no doubt that he has
helped the Australian super coaches lift their game a bit
and certainly the players, even if only with the Australian
(07:08):
players that he's been coaching, taking the message back to
their super teams. But it is definitely happening, and I
think there's quite a number of Australian players who previously
I didn't rate that much that I'm seeing now is
potentially very strong international.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Players anticipation when it comes to Spring Box All Black Tests.
I suppose it brings a little more to the party
as we're not seeing them all the time, and of
course coming up this year doesn't get much bigger, does it.
Eden park that unbeaten record and here comes South Africa.
Do we need a wee bit more prep than them
just coming over to muggers.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
No, I don't think we need more preparation that. When
you watch some of these super games now, they are
test level intensity and physicality and in many cases played
at a lot faster place pace than you would expect
to test me to be played at. So you know,
(08:09):
I'm not too concerned about it. It may be another
year before this all black team is getting to its best.
We've got to give Raise the time, you know, to
get to get everybody in his way of playing, and
to develop the new players that he's had to bring in.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
But I think we'll be ready for them this year.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
The difference and he touched on are before the speed
of play, the interpretation of the rules by Southern Hemisphere
rugby hoping maybe that gets transferred internationally. But the way
we're running the game over here, does that tend to
a decent international game. I know you've got a problem
(08:50):
with the way the front row and alike has been adjudicated,
and that's possibly falling right into their trap.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I don't think I don't think it is.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
We've got some pretty skillful, knowledgeable, tough coaches in New
Zealand and the issues that you know, I I see
with scrummaging, they will be working on it with the referees,
I'm sure, because there's been too many mistakes made at
scrum time and I don't want to dwell on that
now by referees. But so many teams use the scrum
(09:21):
to win matches and get penalties, kick it into the
corner and all over for a trial.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I've been going on about this.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
For a few years and it hasn't improved this year,
but I think it will, and I just hope that
our coaches have got a good opportunity to help coach
the referees so that they know what's going on in
the scrum. You know, there's one thing I would mention here.
(09:48):
I think referees have got to have a little bit
more patience at scrum time. There has been an improvement
this year. There's been a number of scrums getting reset.
I think the very nature of scrums is such that
you are going to have to have accept reset scrums
because so often a scrum can go down or screw
(10:10):
or whatever, and referees have been in the habit of
just sticking their arm in the air and penalizing someone.
While I think they've got to tolerated a bit more,
warn the players whom they think are the offenders, and
then set another scrum.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news talks
they'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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