Portia Woodman-Wickliffe has unretired and is aiming to play for the Black Ferns in the World Cup this year.
So there's that to talk about, and D'Arcy Waldegrave is also keen to find out what the progression path looks like for an up and coming Black Fern now that we have Super Rugby Aupiki. Should they still be playing sevens?
NZ Rugby head of women's high performance Hannah Porter spoke to D'Arcy on Sportstalk.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duesci Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Fifteens versus Sevens. We're talking the advancement of women's rugby
here on the program and we're joined now by New
Zealand Rugby Union's head of women's high Performance, Hannah Porter. Hannah,
Welcome to the show. Hannah, Hi, Hey, does he how
you going? I'm going very well, probably not quite as
(00:33):
good as Porsche woodmin Wickler forp double D as I
like to call it, which I probably shouldn't. But back
into the fold again of the black Ferns, which is
massive news for the defense of the Cup, but it does,
I suppose, bring more into perspective the nature of pathways
through to that top level with the way heina, because
(00:54):
from what I can gather right now, it's not exactly
straight forward from sevens maybe to league, then back to MPC,
maybe Super rugbiopicky to the black ferns. Is there a
particular path that ends are are working on or working
with to get the best out of our way in athletes.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Look, I think there's different pathways. Right There's those that
have been professionals for thirteen years, which is the likes
of Porsche, and firstly just on Porsche wrapped. To have
your back in the fold should be incredible if obviously
still needs to make the team, but incredible, And whatever
kind of environment she's in, both on and off the field,
brings a whole lot of leadership and been there and
done that mindset, which is really helpful obviously when you're
(01:36):
working on Pinnacle events. So there's the likes of how
do how do we provide opportunities for those athletes that
have been in the game for a long time And
it's not like the men's game where at the end
of their career they go overseas and sit in southern
France and earn a bit of cash and drink some wine.
So how do we make sure that they get experiences
in more than one environment when they are playing. So
(01:56):
that's that's one part of the pathway, and the second
part is and we're still pretty young in it, if
I'm honest. So we've only been professional in the fifteens game.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
We're coming up.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Three years now, So until three years ago, our pathways
were still very amateur. We're still FPC, non paid, We're
still going through kind of the under sixteens under eighteens
in our provincial unions, which they've done an amazing job.
But what we're trying to do is turn that into
a high performance pathway. So it's really clear from when
you start at school, or you start at junior club,
(02:26):
or you come in from another sport at kind of
that younger age grade, what the steps are in the pathway.
And so we're two years into that and look really
pleased with we've got to We're in our third year
of our under twenties campaign, which is camp spased at
this stage. For the first year ever, we'll have an
under eighteen's campaign which will be camp spased this year.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
We're going to combine coming up and we're just about.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
To announce something pretty exciting for our development athletes shortly
as well. So we are building it out, but it
has taken a little time.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Where do the sevens players fits into that. They're in
a different area but the same place, if that makes sense.
Where do they fit into this pathway? Is there a
direction for fifteen to move in to move back again,
you're trying to keep it separate. How does that combination exist?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Yeah, so we've been pretty clear on I suppose our
intention that we want our very best players playing in
pinnacle events, So whether that be the Olympics or will
that be Rugby World Cups. We want our very best athletes,
so they could be playing sevens or fifteens. We think
we can transition between the two programs easily. We think
we've got the athletes that we can do that, so
they're coming from sevens into fifteens or vice versa. I
(03:33):
think the difference with our sevens athletes is I suppose
what I mentioned to start off with that now thirteen
years professional and so fifteens is just catching up. So
what you see now is I suppose the transition I
think moving forward you'll see I suppose more of a
transition from our fifteens into the sevens campaign as they
catch up on professionalism, and the same with our sevens
into our fifteens.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
And it may not just be around Rugby World Cups.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
I think the change of the global calendar allows our
sevens athletes to come into fifteens easier than it has
done before, and so you might see again our very
best athletes not only just coming over at Rugby World
Cups or Olympic events. You may see that transition happening
more often.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Is that necessarily fair on the dedicated fifteens players that
run through For example, this year they run through Opiki,
They put on their work in there, and then a
seven star just rolls in and swipes their position.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
We wouldn't class it as that.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I think again, if we're really serious about winning pun events,
we need our best players. So I think in the
fifteens game, what you'll see is you'll have fifteen specialists
at athletes. But again we're three years into it. I
think we're still a cycle away, so we're fully four
years away from I think having a really specialist fifteens
players that will only play fifteens, and then you'll have
a bunch of crossover athletes, but no different tolw knocking
(04:49):
on the door and asking for our players because they
are the best in the world at the moment.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
It's there a want to draw of it in together
though from the players too, to have those things running
simultaneously but still being able to combine as something that
players are interested in being in.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yep, and we talked to them often about it, so
there is a real openness. I think Alan Bunting's done
an amazing job this year. Was I supposed to transparency
of our sevens athletes coming in. This is the third
time we've done it, this is a third World Cup
they've come in. Everyone's been really aware of the plan
to start off with. So there's real transparency within the
two groups of athletes. And you've got two groups of
athletes that want to do everything right, and not just
(05:30):
everything in rugby, but everything every woman's sport. You've got
some real, really motivated athletes that actually just want to
be the best they can be in a whole lot
of different things.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And a porter joins as she's ahead of Women's High
Performance for en z Are. This idea was thrown up
by the Breakdown team a couple of days ago about
having the best athletes in rugby playing Opicki as opposed
to playing on the sevens circuit, saying maybe that detracts
from Ovicky because the rock stars aren't there, they're off
(06:00):
overseas playing sevens. Is there a need to address that,
do you think, Hanna.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Yeah, we're looking at that. It's a live conversation at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Obviously, the women's Global calendar is just about to be
signed off and announced that will allow us to have
a look at our domestic competitions and make sure they're
actually lined up with our international windows.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
That's really important for us for a whole lot of reasons.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
So a little bit watch the space in regards to
where Opaki will be played and if it's not doesn't
overlap the seven Series. We would love to see more
SEVENS athletes or just the best athletes playing in our
domestic competitions, right, And that's really important for people watching
the game, it's really important for commercialism, it's really important
for growing that domestic competition out.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
So I think, just watch that space over the next
couple of months.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I'm presuming you are hand in hand with other women's
associations are globally Seven's fifteen so we think can gel together.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah, absolutely, And that's been one really pleasing thing working
on the women's global calendar is trying to step away
and say, how do we how do we make the
best competitions we can for our females and what could
that look like in regards to are their windows where
they they aren't playing in New Zealand, but they're playing
in a different competition, but they can come back just
to get that experience, as I spoke about, because it
(07:12):
doesn't typically happen after a woman's career. And if you
have a look at Porsche and what she wants to
do after her career, and they're thinking about family and
work and all these other things. So how do we
actually provide that opportunity within the player's career With New
Zealand Rugby.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
As it stands is seven's more lucrative. Is there much
of a difference how much money were talking about here?
What's the temptation I suppose to keep women playing one
or the other if it doesn't get integrated.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Yeah, there's a slight difference at the moment, but that's again,
that's all part of the conversation we're having at the moment.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
How do we make sure that.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Both codes are seen as just as I suppose, exciting
as each other, and so that we're not making choices
around the money side of things.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
We're actually just making choices in regards to what competitions
they want to play them.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
And finally, in Hannah Porter, thanks so much for joining
us on arts your day off you down in Tope,
We'll having some fun with the family. It's been quite
a fantastic last couple of weeks for the women's game.
Has it not. It's really lifted the profile of the game.
We've seen some fantastic examples of just how good the
women's game can be.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Absolutely, the final of Opicky, what a great game down
for the last seconds of that. I think the broadcast
numbers showed why having it at primetime is also important.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
And then the crossover game, and whilst we didn't get.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
The conditions we wanted for that game, we certainly it
was kind of two years and the planning was Rugby
Australia and we managed to pick the only day that
was having a cyclone this year so far, but it
was I suppose the intention is there, how do we
keep working with Rugby Australia to grow those two competitions.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Do you think you'll carry on having finals of Opicky
in that prime time spot? Was it worth that move?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Look, it was the best numbers that we've had all season.
I think we'll work with Sky obviously and the Superby
Pacific draw to see what we can do for next year.
But I think it absolutely showed that if we put
it at a time where there's a whole lot of
people watching the game that they will chune in and
watch it and hopefully they really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
And when get the Australians involved, it might be that pinnacle,
but we're going to wait for that as well. You're
still with everything else, Still talks going on, yep, and.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Talks, underwear and talks. We've been in lined with Australia
for the last couple of years, so conversations there are
really good, but there's obviously a few stakeholders to work
with to make sure that we get that right.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
It's all on the up and up, and he's in
a rugby. Head of Women's High Performance. Hannah Porter thinks,
so much for your time. Now back to enjoying your
holiday again. I apologize, thank you.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
No problem. See you Ladder.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks.
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duesci Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Fifteens versus Sevens. We're talking the advancement of women's rugby
here on the program and we're joined now by New
Zealand Rugby Union's head of women's high Performance, Hannah Porter. Hannah,
Welcome to the show. Hannah, Hi, Hey, does he how
you going? I'm going very well, probably not quite as
(00:33):
good as Porsche woodmin Wickler forp double D as I
like to call it, which I probably shouldn't. But back
into the fold again of the black Ferns, which is
massive news for the defense of the Cup, but it does,
I suppose, bring more into perspective the nature of pathways
through to that top level with the way heina, because
(00:54):
from what I can gather right now, it's not exactly
straight forward from sevens maybe to league, then back to MPC,
maybe Super rugbiopicky to the black ferns. Is there a
particular path that ends are are working on or working
with to get the best out of our way in athletes.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Look, I think there's different pathways. Right There's those that
have been professionals for thirteen years, which is the likes
of Porsche, and firstly just on Porsche wrapped. To have
your back in the fold should be incredible if obviously
still needs to make the team, but incredible, And whatever
kind of environment she's in, both on and off the field,
brings a whole lot of leadership and been there and
done that mindset, which is really helpful obviously when you're
(01:36):
working on Pinnacle events. So there's the likes of how
do how do we provide opportunities for those athletes that
have been in the game for a long time And
it's not like the men's game where at the end
of their career they go overseas and sit in southern
France and earn a bit of cash and drink some wine.
So how do we make sure that they get experiences
in more than one environment when they are playing. So
(01:56):
that's that's one part of the pathway, and the second
part is and we're still pretty young in it, if
I'm honest. So we've only been professional in the fifteens game.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
We're coming up.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Three years now, So until three years ago, our pathways
were still very amateur. We're still FPC, non paid, We're
still going through kind of the under sixteens under eighteens
in our provincial unions, which they've done an amazing job.
But what we're trying to do is turn that into
a high performance pathway. So it's really clear from when
you start at school, or you start at junior club,
(02:26):
or you come in from another sport at kind of
that younger age grade, what the steps are in the pathway.
And so we're two years into that and look really
pleased with we've got to We're in our third year
of our under twenties campaign, which is camp spased at
this stage. For the first year ever, we'll have an
under eighteen's campaign which will be camp spased this year.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
We're going to combine coming up and we're just about.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
To announce something pretty exciting for our development athletes shortly
as well. So we are building it out, but it
has taken a little time.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Where do the sevens players fits into that. They're in
a different area but the same place, if that makes sense.
Where do they fit into this pathway? Is there a
direction for fifteen to move in to move back again,
you're trying to keep it separate. How does that combination exist?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Yeah, so we've been pretty clear on I suppose our
intention that we want our very best players playing in
pinnacle events, So whether that be the Olympics or will
that be Rugby World Cups. We want our very best athletes,
so they could be playing sevens or fifteens. We think
we can transition between the two programs easily. We think
we've got the athletes that we can do that, so
they're coming from sevens into fifteens or vice versa. I
(03:33):
think the difference with our sevens athletes is I suppose
what I mentioned to start off with that now thirteen
years professional and so fifteens is just catching up. So
what you see now is I suppose the transition I
think moving forward you'll see I suppose more of a
transition from our fifteens into the sevens campaign as they
catch up on professionalism, and the same with our sevens
into our fifteens.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
And it may not just be around Rugby World Cups.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
I think the change of the global calendar allows our
sevens athletes to come into fifteens easier than it has
done before, and so you might see again our very
best athletes not only just coming over at Rugby World
Cups or Olympic events. You may see that transition happening
more often.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Is that necessarily fair on the dedicated fifteens players that
run through For example, this year they run through Opiki,
They put on their work in there, and then a
seven star just rolls in and swipes their position.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
We wouldn't class it as that.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I think again, if we're really serious about winning pun events,
we need our best players. So I think in the
fifteens game, what you'll see is you'll have fifteen specialists
at athletes. But again we're three years into it. I
think we're still a cycle away, so we're fully four
years away from I think having a really specialist fifteens
players that will only play fifteens, and then you'll have
a bunch of crossover athletes, but no different tolw knocking
(04:49):
on the door and asking for our players because they
are the best in the world at the moment.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
It's there a want to draw of it in together
though from the players too, to have those things running
simultaneously but still being able to combine as something that
players are interested in being in.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yep, and we talked to them often about it, so
there is a real openness. I think Alan Bunting's done
an amazing job this year. Was I supposed to transparency
of our sevens athletes coming in. This is the third
time we've done it, this is a third World Cup
they've come in. Everyone's been really aware of the plan
to start off with. So there's real transparency within the
two groups of athletes. And you've got two groups of
athletes that want to do everything right, and not just
(05:30):
everything in rugby, but everything every woman's sport. You've got
some real, really motivated athletes that actually just want to
be the best they can be in a whole lot
of different things.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And a porter joins as she's ahead of Women's High
Performance for en z Are. This idea was thrown up
by the Breakdown team a couple of days ago about
having the best athletes in rugby playing Opicki as opposed
to playing on the sevens circuit, saying maybe that detracts
from Ovicky because the rock stars aren't there, they're off
(06:00):
overseas playing sevens. Is there a need to address that,
do you think, Hanna.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Yeah, we're looking at that. It's a live conversation at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Obviously, the women's Global calendar is just about to be
signed off and announced that will allow us to have
a look at our domestic competitions and make sure they're
actually lined up with our international windows.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
That's really important for us for a whole lot of reasons.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
So a little bit watch the space in regards to
where Opaki will be played and if it's not doesn't
overlap the seven Series. We would love to see more
SEVENS athletes or just the best athletes playing in our
domestic competitions, right, And that's really important for people watching
the game, it's really important for commercialism, it's really important
for growing that domestic competition out.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
So I think, just watch that space over the next
couple of months.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I'm presuming you are hand in hand with other women's
associations are globally Seven's fifteen so we think can gel together.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah, absolutely, And that's been one really pleasing thing working
on the women's global calendar is trying to step away
and say, how do we how do we make the
best competitions we can for our females and what could
that look like in regards to are their windows where
they they aren't playing in New Zealand, but they're playing
in a different competition, but they can come back just
to get that experience, as I spoke about, because it
(07:12):
doesn't typically happen after a woman's career. And if you
have a look at Porsche and what she wants to
do after her career, and they're thinking about family and
work and all these other things. So how do we
actually provide that opportunity within the player's career With New
Zealand Rugby.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
As it stands is seven's more lucrative. Is there much
of a difference how much money were talking about here?
What's the temptation I suppose to keep women playing one
or the other if it doesn't get integrated.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Yeah, there's a slight difference at the moment, but that's again,
that's all part of the conversation we're having at the moment.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
How do we make sure that.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Both codes are seen as just as I suppose, exciting
as each other, and so that we're not making choices
around the money side of things.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
We're actually just making choices in regards to what competitions
they want to play them.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
And finally, in Hannah Porter, thanks so much for joining
us on arts your day off you down in Tope,
We'll having some fun with the family. It's been quite
a fantastic last couple of weeks for the women's game.
Has it not. It's really lifted the profile of the game.
We've seen some fantastic examples of just how good the
women's game can be.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Absolutely, the final of Opicky, what a great game down
for the last seconds of that. I think the broadcast
numbers showed why having it at primetime is also important.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
And then the crossover game, and whilst we didn't get.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
The conditions we wanted for that game, we certainly it
was kind of two years and the planning was Rugby
Australia and we managed to pick the only day that
was having a cyclone this year so far, but it
was I suppose the intention is there, how do we
keep working with Rugby Australia to grow those two competitions.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Do you think you'll carry on having finals of Opicky
in that prime time spot? Was it worth that move?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Look, it was the best numbers that we've had all season.
I think we'll work with Sky obviously and the Superby
Pacific draw to see what we can do for next year.
But I think it absolutely showed that if we put
it at a time where there's a whole lot of
people watching the game that they will chune in and
watch it and hopefully they really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
And when get the Australians involved, it might be that pinnacle,
but we're going to wait for that as well. You're
still with everything else, Still talks going on, yep, and.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Talks, underwear and talks. We've been in lined with Australia
for the last couple of years, so conversations there are
really good, but there's obviously a few stakeholders to work
with to make sure that we get that right.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
It's all on the up and up, and he's in
a rugby. Head of Women's High Performance. Hannah Porter thinks,
so much for your time. Now back to enjoying your
holiday again. I apologize, thank you.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
No problem. See you Ladder.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talks.
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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