May 21, 2025 • 12 mins
Are Moana Pasifika becoming victims of their own success?
Ardie Savea's team has had their best season in years... so now the other Super Rugby franchises are rushing in to poach their talent.
Case in point - Kyren Taumoefolau is reportedly about to join the Chiefs.
Gregor Paul of the New Zealand Herald broke that story, and he spoke to D'Arcy Waldegrave about the issue on Sportstalk.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancie Wildegrave
from News Talk Zibby.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Karen was leaving, he's off to the Chiefs. Where does
that put Mowana LASSIFICA. Well, we're gonna find out now
as we're joined by gregoril Paul Rugby, writer for the
New Zealand Herald. Good Evening, Gregor Good Evening, Darcy Karen
TAMAI fill out is off and he's off to the Chiefs.
(00:34):
I was convinced he's going to go to the Crusaders
because of his Tasman connection. In fact, he's born on Nelson,
wasn't he? But it looks like he's going to the Chiefs.
He broke the story last night. I'm presuming your oil
is good and this is going to happen.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Yeah, Well, we'll find out if I'm right or not
in due course. I'm pretty certain that I am.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Yeah. Like, I think this is.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
A move that a young man is wanting to make
for a number of reasons, one of which, to your point,
he's from Tasman. He grew up in New Zealand. His
desire as a kid was to play for the All Blacks.
He somewhat surprisingly was given an opportunity to play for
Tonga at the twenty.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Three World Cup, which he took.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Because under current eligibility laws there's a three year stand
down period and that would not Therefore, by playing for
tong at the World Cup.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
That did not kill his All Black dream.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
It meant, in all honesty, he could he could potentially
enhance his prospects of playing for the All Blacks at
the twenty seven World Cup by standing down for three
years from international rugby. I think he's at that point now.
He's very young, he's still only twenty two. He's got
an opportunity to move south to the Chiefs. I think
they're looking to replace Sean Stevenson who's off to Japan,
(01:47):
and he wants to have a crack at scene if
he can be an.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
All Block Understandably, And when he got asked to play
for Tongue or in a World Cup, what was he then?
How old? Like nineteen? Will?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I mean, yeah, just turned twenty.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
You're going to say I want to play the World Cup.
This might be the only opportunity I've got. I'm going
with it. So understand why he made that decision and
if he looked back and went well, I knew I
had three years, so why not?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, I mean that's the thing that there's a the
eligibility change when when they would change whenever? That was
a handfully years ago to allow players to once again
play for two nations. The intent I suppose of the
law as it was envisaged was, well, we were thinking
more about guys who've played for the Old Lecks or
played for the waller Bees, the Samon or Tongue and
(02:34):
or Fiji ineligible and therefore you know they can they
can play handfully years for the old Legs and then
stand down and be available for samoh. We had guys
like Charles pie to Stephen Lui Tour who fit that
criteria at the twenty.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Three World Cup.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Strengthened the Island teams and that was the idea, get
the best players at the World Cup. Now it does
work in reverse as well, because it means that guys
can commit to playing for the Islands and it does
not kill their old black dream. Now you know, he
he wouldn't have played for Tonga at the World Cup.
Let suspect if the eligibility rules were no longer what
(03:09):
they currently are. If he wasn't allowed to come back
and play for the All Blacks. He wouldn't have done it.
So Tonga farm or get the best of that as well.
They may not think it, they may not agree with
that necessarily, but it is true that they get these guys,
even if it's only for a short time.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
What's very interesting I'm sure a lot of people leaning
to me around this is the involvement in this situation
by ENSI by Super Rugby. What are the parameters around
how they work. Initially, Moana pacifica was used as a
side to draw and encourage Pacific players to play at
(03:45):
that level. It's not become a ground where injured I
can just play the best players. But we're seeing quite
a few now make their market Mawana and then move
to a Super Rugby side. That's kosher, that's within the laws.
But is it necessarily right gregor.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Ah, Yeah, like tricky one, it was the intent necessarily
of Mowana when it was set up. The intent of
Mowana was to provide a pathway for players to come
into Super Rugby with the band that they would be
salmone or tongue in eligible, and the idea was that
they were you know, they were being prepared to go
(04:24):
and play for Samo or Tonga in the international game.
Strength in that pathway. But the reality is that many,
many players in New Zealand are duel eligible for New
Zealand and an island nation, or even for a New
Zealand Australia and an island nation.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Look, it's a pretty.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Transient place, so it's inevitable that Moana would end up
picking players in their team who would have who would
not yet have their eligibility captured. They would be on
a pathway, or they would imagine they were on a
pathway to play for Samoa or Tonga. They get an
opportunity to play at super rugby level, they turn out
to be a lot better than people, or you know,
(05:01):
they take that opportunity, they play really well. They're also
in New Zealand eligible and all of a sudden, the
All Blacks are interested, and the opportunity to move out
of Moana and go and play, you know, for the
All Blacks, the Chiefs, the Crusaders, Himands, whatever happens.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Now that's entirely Kolsha.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
The problem that we have is that the financial imbalance
of playing for the All Blacks against you know, playing
for Samoa or Tonga and all that means it's massively
rigged in favor of guys wondering if they're dual eligible.
Even if they're playing for Mowana, they're always going to
be seriously tempted if the opportunity arises to move out
(05:42):
of Moana, play for the Chiefs and put their store
out to try and play for the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Is this the same between Moana and the other super franchises.
Here the potential for earnings is greater at the other franchises.
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Well, yeah, there's another problem there that there's two problems. Obviously,
if you end up playing for the Alecks, there's a
serious pot of gold at the end of that for you.
Everyone understands that, you know, the match phase that you
paid or the weekly assembly phase that you've paid, the
New Zealand retainer contract that you take becomes much bigger.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
So the money is significantly higher.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Now even if you don't make the Old Blacks, the
money available to you is also slightly higher not playing
for Alana on most occasions because the five Foundation clubs
fall under the auspices of the Collectives Employment Agreement, which
has a number of loyalty payments built into it. So
(06:45):
even even now, a player who has a provincial and
a Super Rugby contract, they get paid an additional five
thousand dollars a year just simply for being here, and
that is graduated up so by the time they've been
here for three years, I think they get twelve and
a half thousand on that I can't remember the number
up to the fact, if you stay here for five years,
(07:07):
you get thirty five thousand dollars a year as a
loyalty payment for staying here. And it's a way to
entice that sort of mid tier, you know, the guys
who are just below the all Black level. It's to
value the experience that they bring. Now that can be
that's just that's quite a significant kicker when you add
all when you add that up over the course of
the years. Now, that's not available to Moana because they
(07:31):
don't fall under the collective agreement because they're not paid
for by New Zealand Rugby. They sit outside of that agreement.
So these perks and benefits are not on the table
for the Mojana players at the moment.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Manifestly unfair or just, it is what it is does
this need to be changed to do Moana I'm standing here,
need to be accepted into the New Zealand Super Rugby
Pacific franchise or family because an escence. They're there, but
they're not.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yes at the moment, they're caught in a no man's
land to some extent. You're right, and I think this
is you know, they were set up hurriedly, I guess,
you know, through the change of circumstance and Super Rugby
through COVID, and you know, everything had to change when
the South Africans weren't part of it anymore.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
It happened quickly.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
The intent of Moana was great, but we're moving into
a world now where we need to ask, should they
really just become a six New Zealand franchise and fall
under the same umbrella as the five other teams that
have the access to the same opportunities, the same resources,
the same funding, all of that, or what what is
(08:42):
the alternative to give them greater prospect?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
You know, And it won't just be the five.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
New Zealand franchises, by the way, he'll start picking the
players off. It'll be French clubs, it'll be Japanese clubs,
it'll be everyone and anyone, because what we don't want
is for that team to become really just a feeder
that showcases the best pacificer talent for the rich to
clubs and countries to pick them off and pull them away.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
So how do you level that playing field?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Well, that's a question that I think is being asked
inside and Zealand Rugby right now. What the current setup
is a hybrid and it doesn't really work. So what
can be done to give Mowana, you know, more financial
resource and more ability to hold on to players for longer?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Pros and cons Gregger, They've got to be both of
these situations. That works well from minor in some states,
not so on the O the same within z are
What would be the drivers each way? Do you think
to stop this happening or to encourage it to actually
get running?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Well, I think the ways to stop, But you're going
to start asking the question what's the purpose and identity
of Mowana Right now? I'm looking at them going they're
bringing huge value to the competition, you know, they really
they're playing a brand of rugby that everyone enjoys watching
their contender for the playoffs. You know, their driving stand
around them to higher level, engaging the community and these
(10:09):
are everything that we wanted them to do and they
are doing it. And New Zealand Rugby need to ask
the question, what's that worth to us and to the
competition and to more broadly to New Zealand Rugby. If
we can provide opportunity for young pacificer talent to play
in that team, it's culturally right for them, it gets
the best out of them, and the majority of those
(10:31):
players will be on a pathway to play for Samoa
and Tonga. However, some of them will end up playing
for the Old Blacks inevitably, So there's all of these
questions need to be asked because there's value in Molana
and being in this competition, and there's value to New
Zealand Rugby being in this competition. Therefore that's the pro
and thinking how you keep them against the corn as
(10:52):
you say, well, I don't support this argument, but this
would be the one that people would put forward and say, well,
why would New Zealand pay for a sixth team that's
competing with the other five And there's also designed to
find players for Sama and Tonga and not for the
All Blacks, So why would they fund that now, I
(11:13):
think that's too restrictive, and I think that doesn't see
the big picture of what Molana bring and what the
importance of having the whole region playing at the highest
level can do for everyone.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Why would Molana resist? Is it a fear of losing
ultimate power if suddenly the kingmaker is in z Are?
Would that be an issue? What the reason why I would go,
we don't want to have anything to do with us.
We're happy where we are.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
I don't think they would resist.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
I think what Miliana want is the ability to play
in this competition, get access to the best Pacifica talent,
and retain the best Pacificer talent by having similar ability
to remunerate players in the same way.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
So I think that's the outcome.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Would they have any trouble, you know, being under the
ends at our collective, No, I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
I think they'd probably quite like that.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
It would take a lot of their stress away because
they're continually having to find ways to fund themselves. You know,
they get between their sources of income, don't meet their
outgoings at the moment, so that's clearly a pressure point
for them. So no, I think they would probably quite
gladly become New Zealand's six franchise.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancie Wildegrave
from News Talk Zibby.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Karen was leaving, he's off to the Chiefs. Where does
that put Mowana LASSIFICA. Well, we're gonna find out now
as we're joined by gregoril Paul Rugby, writer for the
New Zealand Herald. Good Evening, Gregor Good Evening, Darcy Karen
TAMAI fill out is off and he's off to the Chiefs.
(00:34):
I was convinced he's going to go to the Crusaders
because of his Tasman connection. In fact, he's born on Nelson,
wasn't he? But it looks like he's going to the Chiefs.
He broke the story last night. I'm presuming your oil
is good and this is going to happen.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Yeah, Well, we'll find out if I'm right or not
in due course. I'm pretty certain that I am.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Yeah. Like, I think this is.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
A move that a young man is wanting to make
for a number of reasons, one of which, to your point,
he's from Tasman. He grew up in New Zealand. His
desire as a kid was to play for the All Blacks.
He somewhat surprisingly was given an opportunity to play for
Tonga at the twenty.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Three World Cup, which he took.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Because under current eligibility laws there's a three year stand
down period and that would not Therefore, by playing for
tong at the World Cup.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
That did not kill his All Black dream.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
It meant, in all honesty, he could he could potentially
enhance his prospects of playing for the All Blacks at
the twenty seven World Cup by standing down for three
years from international rugby. I think he's at that point now.
He's very young, he's still only twenty two. He's got
an opportunity to move south to the Chiefs. I think
they're looking to replace Sean Stevenson who's off to Japan,
(01:47):
and he wants to have a crack at scene if
he can be an.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
All Block Understandably, And when he got asked to play
for Tongue or in a World Cup, what was he then?
How old? Like nineteen? Will?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I mean, yeah, just turned twenty.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
You're going to say I want to play the World Cup.
This might be the only opportunity I've got. I'm going
with it. So understand why he made that decision and
if he looked back and went well, I knew I
had three years, so why not?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, I mean that's the thing that there's a the
eligibility change when when they would change whenever? That was
a handfully years ago to allow players to once again
play for two nations. The intent I suppose of the
law as it was envisaged was, well, we were thinking
more about guys who've played for the Old Lecks or
played for the waller Bees, the Samon or Tongue and
(02:34):
or Fiji ineligible and therefore you know they can they
can play handfully years for the old Legs and then
stand down and be available for samoh. We had guys
like Charles pie to Stephen Lui Tour who fit that
criteria at the twenty.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Three World Cup.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Strengthened the Island teams and that was the idea, get
the best players at the World Cup. Now it does
work in reverse as well, because it means that guys
can commit to playing for the Islands and it does
not kill their old black dream. Now you know, he
he wouldn't have played for Tonga at the World Cup.
Let suspect if the eligibility rules were no longer what
(03:09):
they currently are. If he wasn't allowed to come back
and play for the All Blacks. He wouldn't have done it.
So Tonga farm or get the best of that as well.
They may not think it, they may not agree with
that necessarily, but it is true that they get these guys,
even if it's only for a short time.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
What's very interesting I'm sure a lot of people leaning
to me around this is the involvement in this situation
by ENSI by Super Rugby. What are the parameters around
how they work. Initially, Moana pacifica was used as a
side to draw and encourage Pacific players to play at
(03:45):
that level. It's not become a ground where injured I
can just play the best players. But we're seeing quite
a few now make their market Mawana and then move
to a Super Rugby side. That's kosher, that's within the laws.
But is it necessarily right gregor.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Ah, Yeah, like tricky one, it was the intent necessarily
of Mowana when it was set up. The intent of
Mowana was to provide a pathway for players to come
into Super Rugby with the band that they would be
salmone or tongue in eligible, and the idea was that
they were you know, they were being prepared to go
(04:24):
and play for Samo or Tonga in the international game.
Strength in that pathway. But the reality is that many,
many players in New Zealand are duel eligible for New
Zealand and an island nation, or even for a New
Zealand Australia and an island nation.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Look, it's a pretty.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Transient place, so it's inevitable that Moana would end up
picking players in their team who would have who would
not yet have their eligibility captured. They would be on
a pathway, or they would imagine they were on a
pathway to play for Samoa or Tonga. They get an
opportunity to play at super rugby level, they turn out
to be a lot better than people, or you know,
(05:01):
they take that opportunity, they play really well. They're also
in New Zealand eligible and all of a sudden, the
All Blacks are interested, and the opportunity to move out
of Moana and go and play, you know, for the
All Blacks, the Chiefs, the Crusaders, Himands, whatever happens.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Now that's entirely Kolsha.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
The problem that we have is that the financial imbalance
of playing for the All Blacks against you know, playing
for Samoa or Tonga and all that means it's massively
rigged in favor of guys wondering if they're dual eligible.
Even if they're playing for Mowana, they're always going to
be seriously tempted if the opportunity arises to move out
(05:42):
of Moana, play for the Chiefs and put their store
out to try and play for the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Is this the same between Moana and the other super franchises.
Here the potential for earnings is greater at the other franchises.
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Well, yeah, there's another problem there that there's two problems. Obviously,
if you end up playing for the Alecks, there's a
serious pot of gold at the end of that for you.
Everyone understands that, you know, the match phase that you
paid or the weekly assembly phase that you've paid, the
New Zealand retainer contract that you take becomes much bigger.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
So the money is significantly higher.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Now even if you don't make the Old Blacks, the
money available to you is also slightly higher not playing
for Alana on most occasions because the five Foundation clubs
fall under the auspices of the Collectives Employment Agreement, which
has a number of loyalty payments built into it. So
(06:45):
even even now, a player who has a provincial and
a Super Rugby contract, they get paid an additional five
thousand dollars a year just simply for being here, and
that is graduated up so by the time they've been
here for three years, I think they get twelve and
a half thousand on that I can't remember the number
up to the fact, if you stay here for five years,
(07:07):
you get thirty five thousand dollars a year as a
loyalty payment for staying here. And it's a way to
entice that sort of mid tier, you know, the guys
who are just below the all Black level. It's to
value the experience that they bring. Now that can be
that's just that's quite a significant kicker when you add
all when you add that up over the course of
the years. Now, that's not available to Moana because they
(07:31):
don't fall under the collective agreement because they're not paid
for by New Zealand Rugby. They sit outside of that agreement.
So these perks and benefits are not on the table
for the Mojana players at the moment.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Manifestly unfair or just, it is what it is does
this need to be changed to do Moana I'm standing here,
need to be accepted into the New Zealand Super Rugby
Pacific franchise or family because an escence. They're there, but
they're not.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Yes at the moment, they're caught in a no man's
land to some extent. You're right, and I think this
is you know, they were set up hurriedly, I guess,
you know, through the change of circumstance and Super Rugby
through COVID, and you know, everything had to change when
the South Africans weren't part of it anymore.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
It happened quickly.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
The intent of Moana was great, but we're moving into
a world now where we need to ask, should they
really just become a six New Zealand franchise and fall
under the same umbrella as the five other teams that
have the access to the same opportunities, the same resources,
the same funding, all of that, or what what is
(08:42):
the alternative to give them greater prospect?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
You know, And it won't just be the five.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
New Zealand franchises, by the way, he'll start picking the
players off. It'll be French clubs, it'll be Japanese clubs,
it'll be everyone and anyone, because what we don't want
is for that team to become really just a feeder
that showcases the best pacificer talent for the rich to
clubs and countries to pick them off and pull them away.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
So how do you level that playing field?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Well, that's a question that I think is being asked
inside and Zealand Rugby right now. What the current setup
is a hybrid and it doesn't really work. So what
can be done to give Mowana, you know, more financial
resource and more ability to hold on to players for longer?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Pros and cons Gregger, They've got to be both of
these situations. That works well from minor in some states,
not so on the O the same within z are
What would be the drivers each way? Do you think
to stop this happening or to encourage it to actually
get running?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Well, I think the ways to stop, But you're going
to start asking the question what's the purpose and identity
of Mowana Right now? I'm looking at them going they're
bringing huge value to the competition, you know, they really
they're playing a brand of rugby that everyone enjoys watching
their contender for the playoffs. You know, their driving stand
around them to higher level, engaging the community and these
(10:09):
are everything that we wanted them to do and they
are doing it. And New Zealand Rugby need to ask
the question, what's that worth to us and to the
competition and to more broadly to New Zealand Rugby. If
we can provide opportunity for young pacificer talent to play
in that team, it's culturally right for them, it gets
the best out of them, and the majority of those
(10:31):
players will be on a pathway to play for Samoa
and Tonga. However, some of them will end up playing
for the Old Blacks inevitably, So there's all of these
questions need to be asked because there's value in Molana
and being in this competition, and there's value to New
Zealand Rugby being in this competition. Therefore that's the pro
and thinking how you keep them against the corn as
(10:52):
you say, well, I don't support this argument, but this
would be the one that people would put forward and say, well,
why would New Zealand pay for a sixth team that's
competing with the other five And there's also designed to
find players for Sama and Tonga and not for the
All Blacks, So why would they fund that now, I
(11:13):
think that's too restrictive, and I think that doesn't see
the big picture of what Molana bring and what the
importance of having the whole region playing at the highest
level can do for everyone.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Why would Molana resist? Is it a fear of losing
ultimate power if suddenly the kingmaker is in z Are?
Would that be an issue? What the reason why I would go,
we don't want to have anything to do with us.
We're happy where we are.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
I don't think they would resist.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
I think what Miliana want is the ability to play
in this competition, get access to the best Pacifica talent,
and retain the best Pacificer talent by having similar ability
to remunerate players in the same way.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
So I think that's the outcome.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Would they have any trouble, you know, being under the
ends at our collective, No, I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
I think they'd probably quite like that.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
It would take a lot of their stress away because
they're continually having to find ways to fund themselves. You know,
they get between their sources of income, don't meet their
outgoings at the moment, so that's clearly a pressure point
for them. So no, I think they would probably quite
gladly become New Zealand's six franchise.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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