June 10, 2025 • 14 mins
Mark Robinson's time at the helm of NZ Rugby is coming to a close.
He's resigned as CEO and will finish up at the end of the year.
So how did he do? NZ Herald rugby writer Gregor Paul spoke to D'Arcy Waldegrave on Sportstalk about whether Mark's tenure as CEO was a success.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mark Robinson, former Center ended up as a CEO, the
CEO of New Zealand Rugby, arguably one of the most
high profile and difficult jobs in sport here in New Zealand.
Know where to run, no where to hide. Everybody has
opinions and everybody's they feel free to share these opinions.
(00:34):
Whether he's been good, whether he's been bad, ugly, indifferent.
It's quite the step down and to talk about that.
Gregor Paul, he's in New Zealand Herald at Rugby Scribe,
a regular on the program. He's been following this guy
for a long time. So let's find out what Gregor
(00:55):
Paul has made of what Mark Robinson has contributed to
New Zealand rugby in his time in the flash suit
behind the mahogany desk. Good evening, Gregor.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Good evening. Darcy.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
News came out last night that Mark Robinson, CEO of
in z are, is to stand down at the end
of the year. It will be a six year tenure.
Looking back at those six years, I think maybe tumultuous
is an understatement, is it not? Grigor. What does this
guy leave.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Difficult to know what he leaves, because that's not me
fudging your question. It's largely because the single most significant
thing that he did was sign off on an agreement
to sell an equity stake in New Zealand Rugby's commercial
assets to US Fund, manager of Silver Lake, and everything
(01:49):
in his tenure will be defined by that, and the
answer to whether that worked or whether it didn't work
remains unclear, because it's probably going to take another five
to eight years before we can see the full impact
of that decision. If you if you're going on the
evidence of what we've seen so far and what we've
seen in other private equity deals in other parts of
(02:11):
the world, particularly Europe, the evidence is certainly pointing considerably
harder now towards this being a bad idea, that it
hasn't delivered the kind of revolutionary, transformational revenue that they
were expecting, that Silverlight are not the silver bullet excuse
(02:31):
the over use of silver there, and that it was ultimately,
as some myself included and others foresaw, was ultimately not
the right play for New Zealand Roby to get into it.
And it's a legacy play in the sense that they've
sold an equity state that they may never be able
to buy back, and that they will pay the price
(02:54):
for that forever, which is why it's such a singularly
important topic in relation to looking at what happened in
Mark Robinson's tenure. So it's really difficult to look beyond
that if you're asking for sort of immediacy. Some of
what has been reshaped on his watch happened as a
result of the COVID pandemic. So the geopolitics of the
(03:16):
Samsar Alliance were redrawn by just Down rather than Mike Robinson,
because she closed the border for two years and that
created a need, an absolute immediate need to really configure
Super Rugby and it became a Pacific only competition. Now
you could say, well, you know that was down to
the administration. I argue it was down to circumstance. So
(03:38):
that's another major change on Mirk Robinson's watch, and the
other sort of changes I suppose they were seeing. You know,
we're going to say some change in the international calendar,
the arrival of the Nation's Cup competition, But again I
don't think you can say that's down to new Zealand
or down to Robinson, that's down to the world rugby
(03:58):
partners all working together to change that. So in answer
to what he specifically has changed other than doing a deal,
So Lake not sure.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
He was the man who made the decision. I was
on his shoulders around silver Lake. But can it all
really be set at his feet when there are so
many other people involved. He was the spokesperson, if you will,
and you feel it was more than that.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, you're the CEO, you know, And when you are
the CEO, when you're the head coach, when you're the
obvious leader of an organization, Yeah, the people around you
are working to the same outcomes. So yeah, his staff
were working as fervently to get a deal with silver
Lake over the line. Yeah, it's ultimately the ultimate boss
who takes accountability and responsibility for these for that initiative.
(04:49):
And that's how history works. Starts, you know, Like we
look at Margaret Thatcher's tenure in politics, we look at
John keys tenure in politics. Yeah, when you're the leader,
you carry the can for everything that goes on on
your watch. That's how it has to get played. I
think Mark was a real, really strong believer in the
notion of a private equity deal being the only option
(05:12):
available to New Zealand Rugby if their mission was to
globalize the All Blacks more stringently than they had to
find some more global sponsorship money, to find some more Japanese, American,
British based fans and grow the whole footprint of brand
All Black, to therefore grow the revenue that's attached it.
(05:34):
Because New Zealand, as we all know, is ultimately a
country of five million people and it's quite difficult to
get the brand value of the All Black paid out
by the domestic population.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
He came in behind Steve Chu who ruled the roost
with an iron fist but without a sign of a
velvet glove anywhere. Difficult for Mark to come into that
role considering what Steve left behind, because the peers he
came all with a friendlier face, a more open face,
more of an idea to connect with a New Zealand
(06:06):
r be public we previously engine are attracted terms like
the Kremlin and the lot did Did they make it
any easier for him or not?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
No? Look, I don't think it makes a huge deal
of difference. I think what you're referring to I don't
think it's more a sort of stylistic notion of what
Steve Chu brought as compared with you know, a friendlier,
user friendly Mark Robinson. I think the issue probably was
that Mark arrived in an organization and this was not
to disparage anything that Steve too did, but it was
(06:34):
apparent that the financial model of rugby worldwide, but specifically
in New Zealand needed to be reconsidered because what was
essentially happening was a game was living off the proceeds
of British and Irish Lions tours that would come every
twelve years. It'd get a bumper load of cash. They
would bank all that and by the time the Lions
came round again, they were out of money and they
(06:57):
needed another one and it was an unsustainable model. You know,
the old lecks had led, or you know, I guess
the old bleckser should see, yes, had dabbled a little
bit in playing test matches offshore AIG who are a
US insurer, who had given them a sense of being
a bigger player, and you know what it meant to
be a global brand. But really, by the time Mark
came on board, a lot of things were converging and
(07:18):
the organization needed to take a far more international outlook
and needed to lean into that way harder than it
had been. The financial model need to be reconsidered, which
was all linked into the globalization of everything. So really
he arrives at a time where change was an absolute
necessity for that organization to get itself on a more
(07:42):
stable foundation, and therefore would we probably associate the stylistic
differences between the two as being you know, as being
what was different about them. Not really. I think Mark
had to take New Zealand Rugby and park it more
as an international focused outward looking into t which and
a more complex organization as well. And I think Steve
(08:05):
was a classic sports administrator who'd come through the domestic
ranks and really he'd taken the organization as far as
he could take it, and it needed a new person to,
you know, to make the changes that Mark was charged
with making.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
One of the biggest suites when he was in charge
he still got six months to go, was the handling
of the foster the Robertson situation. I think everyone got
left or the egg on their face and muddle over
the walls of that one. How he handled that.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, well, you're asking me, and you're asking me at
a time where I've got deeper insight into that because
Ian Foster's written a book about this. I wrote the
book with him, so I've got a really good handle
on how that played out. The book is out next week.
I'm trying not to give spoilers away here. So what
(09:01):
I would say in answer to that, read the book
from a perspective of how would you feel if you
were the old Lacks coach, And yep, there could be
some who would argue that it wasn't a massively successful
tenure that Ian Foster had if you look at it
just purely on a results basis. There were circumstances that
were difficult no matter who the CEO was. That would
(09:23):
have been, you know, the arrival of COVID, closing of borders,
living in biobubbles, all these things that are massive impact
on schedules and the way the team trained, the way
they had to play. But I think just read the
book and you'll be able to draw your own conclusions
as to how well that scenario was handled, because there's
certain things that are revealed in there that would make
(09:49):
would make an exercise in leadership and communication quite a
worthwhile process.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
He's not leaving because of the book, is egreg.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
No, he's not leaving because of the book, but that
we haven't heard from Eating Foster and obviously asking me
about Mark Foster Mark Robinson, but we haven't heard from him.
And one of the things I'd say about Robbo is
if we look at the high performance sphere, if you like,
there were definitely issues with that on his watch. I mean,
(10:23):
the Black Ferns went to a World Cup having you know,
to parachute Wayne Smith in as their coach, and we
had an effective temporary coaching crew you know who were
put in. I can't remember it was it three months
or four months before the tournament. We had an all
black team go to World Cup with the decision already
made that the existing coaching crew and most of the
(10:45):
management team were being told already you know you're not
going to be here after the World Cup. That was
an unprecedented situation. Did it destabilize the team? No, not really.
But was it unusual for these guys to be going
to a tournament with that level of disruption? Yes, we've
never seen that before. And now we've gotten under twenty
(11:05):
team that is all to the Junior World Championship. Again
just on the eve of the tournament, the head coach
has resigned because clearly there was a lack of alignment
between him and the various deputies. So that's three well cuts,
three years in a row where national teams are going
with some kind of coaching drama late in the piece
(11:28):
which has impacted the preparation. And I think, if you
want to win about legacy, is clear to me that
there's some issues not confined to Mike Robinson's leadership around
high performance, but clearly there's an issue with the high
performance team and management of high performance teams in New
Zealand right now.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Over the next six months. What can he do? What
should he do? Is it a case of just hold
it steady before he departs? Is there anything he can
do for me?
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, there's one critical piece of work, which is to
sign a podcast agreement before he leaves. That has to
happen because the current agreement runs out at the end
of the year, so that is an absolute must. And
that's a biggie because you know, any major sports, professional
sports entity, your broadcast income is paramount to you, you know,
(12:19):
to your success because it forms a huge part of
your revenue. This has gone on for quite some time,
this sort of stalemate between ends and are and Sky.
You know, I've been reporting that Sky have made a
monetary offer that's about, you know, anything between twenty to
twenty five million dollars less than New Zealand Rugby currently own.
So there's a real need. You know, New Zealand Rugby
(12:40):
can't afford to take an income hit of that size
on such an important piece of real estate for them.
They've got to find a way for this deal when
they sign it. They've got to find a way for
broadcast in its entirety. Now what I mean by that
is if they do not get a great price from
the domestic broadcaster, who will be Sky, then they need
(13:03):
to find a way to be selling the international to
overseas broadcast. Sky UK canal clue whoever. They've got to
try and get the make the shortfall that they're looking
at domestically, they've got to make that up internationally. And
I think you could say if they get to the
point where they retain next year what they are currently
(13:26):
earning this year on broadcast revenue, I would probably consider
that a win for Robinson. But there's a secondary caveat,
which is this is contrary to the sales pitch that
was given three years ago about the reasons for bringing
in silver Lake as an investment partner, because we were
(13:46):
being told that bringing them in, with their experience and
selling broadcast rights and understanding digital content, that we were
going to see these transformational lifts in broadcast revenue. Now
that's clearly not going to happen on this occasion if
we're looking at a break even scenario, and then we're
another five years down the track before they get another
(14:07):
crack at fixing this. So that puts a real question
mark on the value of having silver Lake sitting there
as a partner because they've had you know, this was
their time to bang it in the back of the net,
and they've spuned it over the bar. And now we're
being told, oh, well, hang on, you've got to wait
another five years and we'll see if they can park
this one into an open goal. And that's the danger
(14:29):
for as I talked about earlier about you know, the
Hawt Robinson legacy, it hangs on what ultimately proves to
be the value of having brought silver Lake in as
a partner for.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
More from sports talk. Listen live to news talks. It'd
be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on
iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mark Robinson, former Center ended up as a CEO, the
CEO of New Zealand Rugby, arguably one of the most
high profile and difficult jobs in sport here in New Zealand.
Know where to run, no where to hide. Everybody has
opinions and everybody's they feel free to share these opinions.
(00:34):
Whether he's been good, whether he's been bad, ugly, indifferent.
It's quite the step down and to talk about that.
Gregor Paul, he's in New Zealand Herald at Rugby Scribe,
a regular on the program. He's been following this guy
for a long time. So let's find out what Gregor
(00:55):
Paul has made of what Mark Robinson has contributed to
New Zealand rugby in his time in the flash suit
behind the mahogany desk. Good evening, Gregor.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Good evening. Darcy.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
News came out last night that Mark Robinson, CEO of
in z are, is to stand down at the end
of the year. It will be a six year tenure.
Looking back at those six years, I think maybe tumultuous
is an understatement, is it not? Grigor. What does this
guy leave.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Difficult to know what he leaves, because that's not me
fudging your question. It's largely because the single most significant
thing that he did was sign off on an agreement
to sell an equity stake in New Zealand Rugby's commercial
assets to US Fund, manager of Silver Lake, and everything
(01:49):
in his tenure will be defined by that, and the
answer to whether that worked or whether it didn't work
remains unclear, because it's probably going to take another five
to eight years before we can see the full impact
of that decision. If you if you're going on the
evidence of what we've seen so far and what we've
seen in other private equity deals in other parts of
(02:11):
the world, particularly Europe, the evidence is certainly pointing considerably
harder now towards this being a bad idea, that it
hasn't delivered the kind of revolutionary, transformational revenue that they
were expecting, that Silverlight are not the silver bullet excuse
(02:31):
the over use of silver there, and that it was ultimately,
as some myself included and others foresaw, was ultimately not
the right play for New Zealand Roby to get into it.
And it's a legacy play in the sense that they've
sold an equity state that they may never be able
to buy back, and that they will pay the price
(02:54):
for that forever, which is why it's such a singularly
important topic in relation to looking at what happened in
Mark Robinson's tenure. So it's really difficult to look beyond
that if you're asking for sort of immediacy. Some of
what has been reshaped on his watch happened as a
result of the COVID pandemic. So the geopolitics of the
(03:16):
Samsar Alliance were redrawn by just Down rather than Mike Robinson,
because she closed the border for two years and that
created a need, an absolute immediate need to really configure
Super Rugby and it became a Pacific only competition. Now
you could say, well, you know that was down to
the administration. I argue it was down to circumstance. So
(03:38):
that's another major change on Mirk Robinson's watch, and the
other sort of changes I suppose they were seeing. You know,
we're going to say some change in the international calendar,
the arrival of the Nation's Cup competition, But again I
don't think you can say that's down to new Zealand
or down to Robinson, that's down to the world rugby
(03:58):
partners all working together to change that. So in answer
to what he specifically has changed other than doing a deal,
So Lake not sure.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
He was the man who made the decision. I was
on his shoulders around silver Lake. But can it all
really be set at his feet when there are so
many other people involved. He was the spokesperson, if you will,
and you feel it was more than that.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, you're the CEO, you know, And when you are
the CEO, when you're the head coach, when you're the
obvious leader of an organization, Yeah, the people around you
are working to the same outcomes. So yeah, his staff
were working as fervently to get a deal with silver
Lake over the line. Yeah, it's ultimately the ultimate boss
who takes accountability and responsibility for these for that initiative.
(04:49):
And that's how history works. Starts, you know, Like we
look at Margaret Thatcher's tenure in politics, we look at
John keys tenure in politics. Yeah, when you're the leader,
you carry the can for everything that goes on on
your watch. That's how it has to get played. I
think Mark was a real, really strong believer in the
notion of a private equity deal being the only option
(05:12):
available to New Zealand Rugby if their mission was to
globalize the All Blacks more stringently than they had to
find some more global sponsorship money, to find some more Japanese, American,
British based fans and grow the whole footprint of brand
All Black, to therefore grow the revenue that's attached it.
(05:34):
Because New Zealand, as we all know, is ultimately a
country of five million people and it's quite difficult to
get the brand value of the All Black paid out
by the domestic population.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
He came in behind Steve Chu who ruled the roost
with an iron fist but without a sign of a
velvet glove anywhere. Difficult for Mark to come into that
role considering what Steve left behind, because the peers he
came all with a friendlier face, a more open face,
more of an idea to connect with a New Zealand
(06:06):
r be public we previously engine are attracted terms like
the Kremlin and the lot did Did they make it
any easier for him or not?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
No? Look, I don't think it makes a huge deal
of difference. I think what you're referring to I don't
think it's more a sort of stylistic notion of what
Steve Chu brought as compared with you know, a friendlier,
user friendly Mark Robinson. I think the issue probably was
that Mark arrived in an organization and this was not
to disparage anything that Steve too did, but it was
(06:34):
apparent that the financial model of rugby worldwide, but specifically
in New Zealand needed to be reconsidered because what was
essentially happening was a game was living off the proceeds
of British and Irish Lions tours that would come every
twelve years. It'd get a bumper load of cash. They
would bank all that and by the time the Lions
came round again, they were out of money and they
(06:57):
needed another one and it was an unsustainable model. You know,
the old lecks had led, or you know, I guess
the old bleckser should see, yes, had dabbled a little
bit in playing test matches offshore AIG who are a
US insurer, who had given them a sense of being
a bigger player, and you know what it meant to
be a global brand. But really, by the time Mark
came on board, a lot of things were converging and
(07:18):
the organization needed to take a far more international outlook
and needed to lean into that way harder than it
had been. The financial model need to be reconsidered, which
was all linked into the globalization of everything. So really
he arrives at a time where change was an absolute
necessity for that organization to get itself on a more
(07:42):
stable foundation, and therefore would we probably associate the stylistic
differences between the two as being you know, as being
what was different about them. Not really. I think Mark
had to take New Zealand Rugby and park it more
as an international focused outward looking into t which and
a more complex organization as well. And I think Steve
(08:05):
was a classic sports administrator who'd come through the domestic
ranks and really he'd taken the organization as far as
he could take it, and it needed a new person to,
you know, to make the changes that Mark was charged
with making.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
One of the biggest suites when he was in charge
he still got six months to go, was the handling
of the foster the Robertson situation. I think everyone got
left or the egg on their face and muddle over
the walls of that one. How he handled that.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, well, you're asking me, and you're asking me at
a time where I've got deeper insight into that because
Ian Foster's written a book about this. I wrote the
book with him, so I've got a really good handle
on how that played out. The book is out next week.
I'm trying not to give spoilers away here. So what
(09:01):
I would say in answer to that, read the book
from a perspective of how would you feel if you
were the old Lacks coach, And yep, there could be
some who would argue that it wasn't a massively successful
tenure that Ian Foster had if you look at it
just purely on a results basis. There were circumstances that
were difficult no matter who the CEO was. That would
(09:23):
have been, you know, the arrival of COVID, closing of borders,
living in biobubbles, all these things that are massive impact
on schedules and the way the team trained, the way
they had to play. But I think just read the
book and you'll be able to draw your own conclusions
as to how well that scenario was handled, because there's
certain things that are revealed in there that would make
(09:49):
would make an exercise in leadership and communication quite a
worthwhile process.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
He's not leaving because of the book, is egreg.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
No, he's not leaving because of the book, but that
we haven't heard from Eating Foster and obviously asking me
about Mark Foster Mark Robinson, but we haven't heard from him.
And one of the things I'd say about Robbo is
if we look at the high performance sphere, if you like,
there were definitely issues with that on his watch. I mean,
(10:23):
the Black Ferns went to a World Cup having you know,
to parachute Wayne Smith in as their coach, and we
had an effective temporary coaching crew you know who were
put in. I can't remember it was it three months
or four months before the tournament. We had an all
black team go to World Cup with the decision already
made that the existing coaching crew and most of the
(10:45):
management team were being told already you know you're not
going to be here after the World Cup. That was
an unprecedented situation. Did it destabilize the team? No, not really.
But was it unusual for these guys to be going
to a tournament with that level of disruption? Yes, we've
never seen that before. And now we've gotten under twenty
(11:05):
team that is all to the Junior World Championship. Again
just on the eve of the tournament, the head coach
has resigned because clearly there was a lack of alignment
between him and the various deputies. So that's three well cuts,
three years in a row where national teams are going
with some kind of coaching drama late in the piece
(11:28):
which has impacted the preparation. And I think, if you
want to win about legacy, is clear to me that
there's some issues not confined to Mike Robinson's leadership around
high performance, but clearly there's an issue with the high
performance team and management of high performance teams in New
Zealand right now.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Over the next six months. What can he do? What
should he do? Is it a case of just hold
it steady before he departs? Is there anything he can
do for me?
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, there's one critical piece of work, which is to
sign a podcast agreement before he leaves. That has to
happen because the current agreement runs out at the end
of the year, so that is an absolute must. And
that's a biggie because you know, any major sports, professional
sports entity, your broadcast income is paramount to you, you know,
(12:19):
to your success because it forms a huge part of
your revenue. This has gone on for quite some time,
this sort of stalemate between ends and are and Sky.
You know, I've been reporting that Sky have made a
monetary offer that's about, you know, anything between twenty to
twenty five million dollars less than New Zealand Rugby currently own.
So there's a real need. You know, New Zealand Rugby
(12:40):
can't afford to take an income hit of that size
on such an important piece of real estate for them.
They've got to find a way for this deal when
they sign it. They've got to find a way for
broadcast in its entirety. Now what I mean by that
is if they do not get a great price from
the domestic broadcaster, who will be Sky, then they need
(13:03):
to find a way to be selling the international to
overseas broadcast. Sky UK canal clue whoever. They've got to
try and get the make the shortfall that they're looking
at domestically, they've got to make that up internationally. And
I think you could say if they get to the
point where they retain next year what they are currently
(13:26):
earning this year on broadcast revenue, I would probably consider
that a win for Robinson. But there's a secondary caveat,
which is this is contrary to the sales pitch that
was given three years ago about the reasons for bringing
in silver Lake as an investment partner, because we were
(13:46):
being told that bringing them in, with their experience and
selling broadcast rights and understanding digital content, that we were
going to see these transformational lifts in broadcast revenue. Now
that's clearly not going to happen on this occasion if
we're looking at a break even scenario, and then we're
another five years down the track before they get another
(14:07):
crack at fixing this. So that puts a real question
mark on the value of having silver Lake sitting there
as a partner because they've had you know, this was
their time to bang it in the back of the net,
and they've spuned it over the bar. And now we're
being told, oh, well, hang on, you've got to wait
another five years and we'll see if they can park
this one into an open goal. And that's the danger
(14:29):
for as I talked about earlier about you know, the
Hawt Robinson legacy, it hangs on what ultimately proves to
be the value of having brought silver Lake in as
a partner for.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
More from sports talk. Listen live to news talks. It'd
be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on
iHeartRadio
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