August 20, 2025 • 9 mins
After the Springboks shock loss to the Wallabies the All Blacks shot back up to the number 1 ranked international rugby side in the world, a title they haven't held since November 2021.
But what does this even mean? Should we even care?
D'Arcy Waldegrave caught up with NZ Herald rugby analyst Gregor Paul to ask these questions and what implications the rankings have on the Rugby World Cup seeding process.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duesy Wildergrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It'd be New Zealand Herald Rugby Scribe. But Gregor Paul
joins us. Now as we take a look at the
world rankings, the All Blacks have assumed a position at
the top of the table. There now ranked number one.
The South African's former number one have slipped somewhat. But
how relevant are these rankings? What do they actually mean
(00:33):
the paper they're written on. I'm not sure, Gregor welcome.
How relevant are these rankings?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Well, they probably have the relevance most poignantly, I would
suggest when it comes to making the draw for the
World Cup, because you're world ranking at the time that
the drawers made, clarifies your feeding and which band of
Paul you know, which pot you go into when your
name gets drawn out of the hat. So we've seen
(01:00):
in the past where you know teams have had a
low ranking or a high ranking, I should say whichever
one that you have. And when you come to taking
a World Cup draw that we had one year we
had England, Australia and Wales all in one pool. Because
I think Australia will miles down the rankings when the
when the drawer was made, so that put them all
one pool. So that's why we have it. Does it
(01:22):
strictly matter? Does anyone really follow it outside of World
Cup draws? Probably not really. It's just a snapshot. I
suppose to give you a rough idea. They're not really
much of a rugby follower. What sort of form of
your team might be in who's who, what's what kind
of thing, But it's not something that you would get
too bogged down.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And I don't think same situation. I think off the
top of my head, wasn't it France and Island and
Argentina ended up in one pool as well, the dreaded
pools of death, not that anyone actually dies, so it
can turn around to Bite says that changed. Is the
draw for the next World Cup going to be slightly
more relevant or or closer to the time. I know
(02:01):
they're going to do it a long way out because
of hotels and tearing fans and the like as well.
But is that needs to be tweeked because there was
much gnashing of teeth and pulling of heel the last
couple of times.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, well, I think they've realized that you have to
do it closer to the tournament to give you a
more relevant, accurate snapshot of where the teams are in
terms of form and ability. They'll also be slightly different
this time lund because there's more teams coming in the
World Cup, which means that the top six will be
separated into So what will happen is one, two, three, four, five,
(02:32):
six that those names go each go into a separate
pool when it comes to the World Cup dural and
then teams rank seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve they
go into another pot if you like, and one name
gets pulled out of there to go into each pool.
And therefore you end up with a team from each
band if you like, being put into the same pool.
(02:54):
So you don't get New Zealand, South Africa and Argentina
all in one pool. You know, you've got to split
your seeds up. So it'll be a little bit different
again because there will be six pools, so the separation
will be even greater. And you know, I don't think
we'll see that clustering of you know, Wales, Australia, England
or Ireland, France, Argentina where we've seen in the past.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
It's the way the seedings or the world rankings are
determined right now. As you pointed out in zidher dot
co dot and z that relies on who you play
and who you beat as to how far you go
up and how far you go down. You could probably
argue to the cows come home about the relevance of that,
but I suppose if they've got to do a world ranking,
(03:37):
they've got to maintain some kind of equation to work
it through.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yeah, there's no ideal system by which you can do this,
but it does mean it's easier to become number one
than it is to retaine the number one status because
when you're playing every team you play as number one
will be ranked lower than you. Therefore, the number of
points that you can gain. If you're number one and
(04:03):
you're playing number four in the world, you're potential points
game is relatively small, whereas if you're number four and
you beat number one, you get given a higher number
of points for that success. So you know, Australia took
three points when they beat South Africa because I think
there were seventh in the world at the time when
(04:24):
they played. So you beat number one in the world
when you're seventh that's a big swing and that's why
South Africa have dropped. You know, they dropped from number
one to number three by losing one game. Now, does
that give you a fair assessment of, you know, where
things have set over the last twelve to eighteen months.
I don't know. I think South Africa have probably been
(04:46):
the world's best team, most consistent team since they won
the World Cup. But they lose one game to Australia,
and albeit Australia played very well and all of a
sudden that changes things dramatically. In Ireland, who haven't played
for a while, they let frogd South Africa as a
result of that result as well. So you do get
the these heavy swings when you get an upset in
(05:09):
the to the nature that we had at L's Park.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Snapshot all the time, can it be turned around almost immediately?
How many times they go through and pick the eyes out.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Of this career? Well, every time every time people play,
there's ranking points at stake. So yeah, the bigger swings
come in November and July when both hemispheres are playing
at the same time. So Rugby Championship we're only really
seeing four teams playing, so it's harder to get those
(05:41):
those big swings. But you know, in essence, South Africa
could drop again. I haven't looked at you know, how
many points France actually have at the moment. But South
Africa is still playing a team ranked way below them
this weekend, Australia, who despite taking three points haven't actually
moved up the rankings because they were quite a long
(06:01):
way down. So again we could see South Africa drop
behind France at the weekend, you know, drop down to
number four if they get beaten. So you do get
these you do get a lot of turbulence. I suppose
a lot of movement. But wait till we get to
November and we say all the teams in action were
you know, it could change every week and quite significantly.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
So it's really only irrelevant when they're just about to
fall into doing the seedings for the World Cup. That's
when it actually has some kind of palpable effect on
the world of rugby.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Probably, although I'm sure that internally, you know, there'll be
an expectation New Zealand rugby will have an expectation that,
you know, the All Blacks hold the number one ranking,
you know, for as long as they can. So there's
that sort of KPI corporate measurement. I suppose that's attached
to these things. I suppose every international coach will be
(06:56):
charged by their union say well, you know, maybe there's
a bonus if we're number one on the rankings for
you know, a period of time, we'll give you more
money or whatever it might be. But the fan, for
everyone that's following the sport, do we care not? Really
doesn't feel like you've achieved by winning a World Cup
or the Rugby Championship or the Bladder Slow Cup. You
(07:17):
don't go, yeah, we're world number one. You know, that's
an amazing achievement because you know that next week you
could lose the game and be number five.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I read the piece, I thought exactly the same thing.
One last thought, Grego you mentioned but the world number
one is South Africa on the bulk of what they've
done over the last few years, we've accelerated to the
top of the ladder, haven't gone anywhere and near them
again another floor.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah, it's probably I liking it a little bit like
the World tennis rankings, where you can be world number
one and never have won a Grand Slam tournament. Where
somebody could win a Grand Slam and never be number one. Now,
which which marker do we put down as being more relevant?
You know, I think for rugby New zealand't New Zealanders
(08:03):
wouldn't care really about being world number one if you
if you asked them, what's more important? World number one
and winning a World Cup or winning a World Cup
consistently winning the Rugby Championship. Yeah, that's more important than
being at world number one. So look, it's it's a
way of giving rugby a little bit of structure in
(08:23):
order to work out who's heard what's what roughly, But
I'm not sure the relevance of world rankings per se.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
After New Zealand got dropped kicked out of the World
Cup way too early, and you remember this headline across
the top of the Herald and massive font and it
said tragedy. Now that wouldn't happen if we lost number
one status, now, wouldn't I think it says at all?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
I don't think tragic tragedy seem a bit over the
top three for a World Cup as well, so definitely
would be over the top four losing a number one ranking.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Years For more from Sports Talk, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Duesy Wildergrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It'd be New Zealand Herald Rugby Scribe. But Gregor Paul
joins us. Now as we take a look at the
world rankings, the All Blacks have assumed a position at
the top of the table. There now ranked number one.
The South African's former number one have slipped somewhat. But
how relevant are these rankings? What do they actually mean
(00:33):
the paper they're written on. I'm not sure, Gregor welcome.
How relevant are these rankings?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Well, they probably have the relevance most poignantly, I would
suggest when it comes to making the draw for the
World Cup, because you're world ranking at the time that
the drawers made, clarifies your feeding and which band of
Paul you know, which pot you go into when your
name gets drawn out of the hat. So we've seen
(01:00):
in the past where you know teams have had a
low ranking or a high ranking, I should say whichever
one that you have. And when you come to taking
a World Cup draw that we had one year we
had England, Australia and Wales all in one pool. Because
I think Australia will miles down the rankings when the
when the drawer was made, so that put them all
one pool. So that's why we have it. Does it
(01:22):
strictly matter? Does anyone really follow it outside of World
Cup draws? Probably not really. It's just a snapshot. I
suppose to give you a rough idea. They're not really
much of a rugby follower. What sort of form of
your team might be in who's who, what's what kind
of thing, But it's not something that you would get
too bogged down.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And I don't think same situation. I think off the
top of my head, wasn't it France and Island and
Argentina ended up in one pool as well, the dreaded
pools of death, not that anyone actually dies, so it
can turn around to Bite says that changed. Is the
draw for the next World Cup going to be slightly
more relevant or or closer to the time. I know
(02:01):
they're going to do it a long way out because
of hotels and tearing fans and the like as well.
But is that needs to be tweeked because there was
much gnashing of teeth and pulling of heel the last
couple of times.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, well, I think they've realized that you have to
do it closer to the tournament to give you a
more relevant, accurate snapshot of where the teams are in
terms of form and ability. They'll also be slightly different
this time lund because there's more teams coming in the
World Cup, which means that the top six will be
separated into So what will happen is one, two, three, four, five,
(02:32):
six that those names go each go into a separate
pool when it comes to the World Cup dural and
then teams rank seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve they
go into another pot if you like, and one name
gets pulled out of there to go into each pool.
And therefore you end up with a team from each
band if you like, being put into the same pool.
(02:54):
So you don't get New Zealand, South Africa and Argentina
all in one pool. You know, you've got to split
your seeds up. So it'll be a little bit different
again because there will be six pools, so the separation
will be even greater. And you know, I don't think
we'll see that clustering of you know, Wales, Australia, England
or Ireland, France, Argentina where we've seen in the past.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
It's the way the seedings or the world rankings are
determined right now. As you pointed out in zidher dot
co dot and z that relies on who you play
and who you beat as to how far you go
up and how far you go down. You could probably
argue to the cows come home about the relevance of that,
but I suppose if they've got to do a world ranking,
(03:37):
they've got to maintain some kind of equation to work
it through.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yeah, there's no ideal system by which you can do this,
but it does mean it's easier to become number one
than it is to retaine the number one status because
when you're playing every team you play as number one
will be ranked lower than you. Therefore, the number of
points that you can gain. If you're number one and
(04:03):
you're playing number four in the world, you're potential points
game is relatively small, whereas if you're number four and
you beat number one, you get given a higher number
of points for that success. So you know, Australia took
three points when they beat South Africa because I think
there were seventh in the world at the time when
(04:24):
they played. So you beat number one in the world
when you're seventh that's a big swing and that's why
South Africa have dropped. You know, they dropped from number
one to number three by losing one game. Now, does
that give you a fair assessment of, you know, where
things have set over the last twelve to eighteen months.
I don't know. I think South Africa have probably been
(04:46):
the world's best team, most consistent team since they won
the World Cup. But they lose one game to Australia,
and albeit Australia played very well and all of a
sudden that changes things dramatically. In Ireland, who haven't played
for a while, they let frogd South Africa as a
result of that result as well. So you do get
the these heavy swings when you get an upset in
(05:09):
the to the nature that we had at L's Park.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Snapshot all the time, can it be turned around almost immediately?
How many times they go through and pick the eyes out.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Of this career? Well, every time every time people play,
there's ranking points at stake. So yeah, the bigger swings
come in November and July when both hemispheres are playing
at the same time. So Rugby Championship we're only really
seeing four teams playing, so it's harder to get those
(05:41):
those big swings. But you know, in essence, South Africa
could drop again. I haven't looked at you know, how
many points France actually have at the moment. But South
Africa is still playing a team ranked way below them
this weekend, Australia, who despite taking three points haven't actually
moved up the rankings because they were quite a long
(06:01):
way down. So again we could see South Africa drop
behind France at the weekend, you know, drop down to
number four if they get beaten. So you do get
these you do get a lot of turbulence. I suppose
a lot of movement. But wait till we get to
November and we say all the teams in action were
you know, it could change every week and quite significantly.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
So it's really only irrelevant when they're just about to
fall into doing the seedings for the World Cup. That's
when it actually has some kind of palpable effect on
the world of rugby.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Probably, although I'm sure that internally, you know, there'll be
an expectation New Zealand rugby will have an expectation that,
you know, the All Blacks hold the number one ranking,
you know, for as long as they can. So there's
that sort of KPI corporate measurement. I suppose that's attached
to these things. I suppose every international coach will be
(06:56):
charged by their union say well, you know, maybe there's
a bonus if we're number one on the rankings for
you know, a period of time, we'll give you more
money or whatever it might be. But the fan, for
everyone that's following the sport, do we care not? Really
doesn't feel like you've achieved by winning a World Cup
or the Rugby Championship or the Bladder Slow Cup. You
(07:17):
don't go, yeah, we're world number one. You know, that's
an amazing achievement because you know that next week you
could lose the game and be number five.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I read the piece, I thought exactly the same thing.
One last thought, Grego you mentioned but the world number
one is South Africa on the bulk of what they've
done over the last few years, we've accelerated to the
top of the ladder, haven't gone anywhere and near them
again another floor.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah, it's probably I liking it a little bit like
the World tennis rankings, where you can be world number
one and never have won a Grand Slam tournament. Where
somebody could win a Grand Slam and never be number one. Now,
which which marker do we put down as being more relevant?
You know, I think for rugby New zealand't New Zealanders
(08:03):
wouldn't care really about being world number one if you
if you asked them, what's more important? World number one
and winning a World Cup or winning a World Cup
consistently winning the Rugby Championship. Yeah, that's more important than
being at world number one. So look, it's it's a
way of giving rugby a little bit of structure in
(08:23):
order to work out who's heard what's what roughly, But
I'm not sure the relevance of world rankings per se.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
After New Zealand got dropped kicked out of the World
Cup way too early, and you remember this headline across
the top of the Herald and massive font and it
said tragedy. Now that wouldn't happen if we lost number
one status, now, wouldn't I think it says at all?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
No, I don't.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
I don't think tragic tragedy seem a bit over the
top three for a World Cup as well, so definitely
would be over the top four losing a number one ranking.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Years For more from Sports Talk, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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