October 9, 2025 • 12 mins
Key figures involved in rugby have expressed concerns that kids coming through professional rugby pathways don't always have a plan B if playing professionally doesn't work out.
In this world, it is increasingly important that young kids are developing skills for success in the world as the number of players getting professional contracts is a small fraction of the kids who play the sport.
Paul Galland is the head of the Crusaders academy, they have a huge emphasis on helping their academy players develop skills outside of rugby and let them know that players know that there is a life outside of rugby.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk zed.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Be article release today. You can find it nz hero
dot co dot ez. Jordan's Smith penned At discussing the
issue about young pro rugby players struggling with who they are,
trying to determine if they have a plan B. If
their goal of becoming a professional rugby player doesn't pan out.
(00:35):
Probably won't, but maybe when you're an academy level is
it there's a much better chance. But even the build
up to that, the head space of the kids, I
can call them that because I'm coming out level fifty six,
it's the difficult for them, very very hard. You remember
back to when you're seventeen, eighteen nineteen, I mean didn't
(00:55):
know anything. You think you're going to be a professional
rugby player and everything's going to be laid out for
you and it's going to be heaps of fun, and
then something stops it dead in the track. Are you
prepared for what I'd like to say, the individibility, inevitability.
Excuse me? I couldn't get that one out, could I?
Of not being a pro rugby player? The skills for
(01:17):
success in the world outside of rugby required number of
players to getting professional contracts, but it's a small fraction
of the kids who actually played the sport. Paul Gallant,
is that not Paul Gallon, the Monk Sharks player. Paul
Galland as the head of the Crusader's Academy, they've got
a massive emphasis on helping their academy players develop skills
(01:41):
outside running, passing, complaining to the referee and the like.
They're going to let them know that the players know
that there actually is a life outside of rugby. So
briares and it's good that this is being reinforced to
be joined by Paul now to discuss Hey, Paul good,
(02:04):
great story in the Herald today by a bloke called
Jordan Smith talking about rugby professionalism hurting New Zealand's young men.
And you're in a position now at the academy where
you're very aware of this and you're trying to not
transition players out of rugby, but let them understand there's
more to life than just rugby. Does that encapitulate it?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Well, yeah, it does. I think the academies across New
Zealand at the moment there's a massive emphasis on holistic development,
and that's making sure that we look after the players
inside these walls, but also outside of that too, So
all our academy members are either studying or they're either working.
We've got systems in place with mental skills, nutrition leadership,
(02:50):
personal development managers just to make sure that they are
setting themselves up for whatever life shows it them. And
these young men that come into these programs that don't
always become professional players, but there's some great young men
that come out and do some extraordinary things as well.
So it's an awesome space to be it.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
The development of this space, where is it going? Do
you think, like what happens next? Because it's old to
see a movable feast, so you're always trying different ideas,
so is it still got a lot of water to go?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
We're constantly challenging ourselves as a staff and group and
as a management group to see what the next generation
is like. You know, we've got Generation Z, Generation Alpha,
and there's different needs and different things societal pressures that
they deal with. So we're constantly pivoting around that to
see how we best support them, and we give it
our all and what an unbelievable opportunities Some of these
(03:42):
guys get And I remember going through school and coming
out and trying the sports avenue and it wasn't successful
at it, but there wasn't this wrap around support. It's
unreal what they get. And you know, we're just trying
to help them live their dreams. And sometimes their dreams
change as they go through to and things that can
alter that as injury or selection or just sometimes even
of pivot in life. So there's been some awesome young
(04:04):
men do some great things, and you've got to look
in the current rugby circles. Christian Leo Willi is a dentist.
Conrad Smith was a lawyer, so there's a coincide. So
I think it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Are they up for these young athletes when they come
through because we're only talking relatively young men here, and
I can say that because I'm getting a bit long
in the tooth, But are they up first? They accept this,
they're embracing this is something that's required for their future development. Yeah,
they do.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
It's all choice, right, Like they choose that they want
to be part of this pathway and you know, professionalism
does bring challenges, right and always will do. There's no
hiding the fact and we always try and help them
understand that herd's okay and that there will be times
where it's hard. And the things that we wrap around
is that the persistence and patience piece and handling hard
(04:51):
well and making sure that they understand build self awareness,
and that we wrap around the mental skills and tools
to be able to deal with because at the end
of the day, it is a choice, right, No one's
twisting their arm. They do choose that they want to
play rugby. But what can help them with stickley that
helps him achieve that.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Probably outside your sphere of influence. But how early do
you think this needs to start? Because I remember when
I was at school way back when in the mid
eighties and the first fifteen were superstars. They could almost
do no wrong, burn the building down to be okay,
it's not that bad, granted, because they had that concept
that they were entitled and that didn't help. Now it's
(05:31):
moved on, it's been forty years since that. But do
you think it needs to start quite young? Is it
through the parents? Is that through the schools or the clubs?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Other the school's do an awesome job like and setting
some of these guys upright there's some really really good
school programs, and I know that we can look from
the outside in and say Jesus is a little bit
of burnout there. But again, the wrap around support that
some of these schools give them and I've seen firsthand
is awesome. And you just got to look at the
way that schools operate now, and you know there's mental
health is a big thing, and making sure that they're
(06:01):
well rounded people is a big thing. And I've got
my five year old at school now and they've got
like a bit of a time out time that they
take just to reflect on the day. And how good
is that That would have never been the case. So yeah,
in terms of your question, are they up for it? Again,
it's a choice and we've just got to help them
do that. And everyone's so different. Like some guys come
in and they've got a lot of things nailed. Some
(06:22):
guys come in and they don't have a lot of
things nail, a lot of things nailed. So it's our
job to help shape them and help guide them and
help a system. And the way that we do that
is probably through trust and care. We can build their
trust and we actually care for them, well, then they're
going to go a long way. But it's not always rugby.
It's you know, there's like I said, these guys that
come out and do some awesome things them come out
(06:43):
to be great coaches too. You know, they feel that
that's their pathway. So yeah, are they up for it? Yep,
that's their choice and we're here to help it.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Well, it worked with Steve Hansen, didn't it. It was
an Oka midfielder, but it never really propelled anywhere further
ended up being one of the goats of coaches if
it would be. There's a concept around that professional sports
should be a plat B, not a plan A, whereas
quite often people say, well, if pro sport fails, here's
(07:12):
my plan B. But it's then the success rate. I
don't know what the percentage is of young men specifically
going into pro rugby. Not a great deal of them
actually end up with the chocolates, and not for a
great deal of time. So do you think the order
is wrong?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, well I've had this question ask me before around
a plan B. But it's just your plan. There's no
plan A plan D, Like, if one thing falls out,
it should all be part of the plan. I can't
imagine Christian leo'willy went in planning rugby thinking dentistry was
going to be his backup plan. You know, his dentistry
was his first piece and the rugby was the part
on the side. And so it does, it changes as well,
(07:52):
like it's all part of the plan and that's our
job is to help them understand that there is things
in there is life outside of rugby. How does that look?
What's part of their identity? Because you know, we can
easily attach rugby as part of their identity and we
do that very well as New Zealanders. Right, it's got
to be the b on end all, but there's so
much more outside of it. And that's the bit that
(08:13):
we have to help them with and help them understand
when the pressure comes on. What is the things that
who are the people that they can lean on for support,
what are the tools that they've got to be able
to support themselves and what's the bigger picture. Being a
good person is number one, and then being a good
Regua player is number two right as part of that
and having all the other bits and pieces around is
(08:34):
just the icing on the cake.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
These programs Taylor made for the individual. Do you have
to look at each person and take on board what
they've experienced, what they want. Is it that Taylor made?
Is it that accurate?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Well? Yeah, well we have a program that you know,
assembly times when guys come in and it's all outside
of study at work times, so that they come in
and they've got their gym and they've got their fearheld.
But they have one on one catch ups with mental
skills coaches, nutritionists, with myself. They have a thing called
an individual Performance Plan and they write their own notes
in that what are the things they are wanting to
(09:07):
achieve and how do they want to achieve it? And
then we help with well who can help you achieve that?
And how are you going to go about this? And
we've got awesome people in the best in their field
that help with mental skills and nutrition and that's giving
them tools.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Is there an acceptance amongst the youth coming through at
an academy level that there's a good chance they won't
end up being a pro rugby player with great success.
Are they cognizant of that reality?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah? They are. We always talk about that, and we
always talk about this life after rugby's life outside of rugby.
I know a lot of professionals talk about life inside
the lines, so inside the white line and then outside
the white line, and making sure that they really separate.
The two nine out of ten that come into our
Crusader's Academy pick up a professional contract of some form
of means, whether that's a provincial union, development contract, super contracts,
(09:58):
all the way up to the top level. So there
is a high success rate in terms of being a
professional paid to assemble or getting paid to play. But
they've also got that life outside, and we have to
make sure that that is a massive part of who
they are and part of their identity and who that
we help them become. Because you know, they're young men.
They just come in and they're full of gusto. But
(10:19):
there's a lot of times that we have to help
them and walk alongside them. That's really important.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
What about the emotional side of the sole toxic masculinity
situation of young men? Basically, they don't show their emotion,
they don't ask for help. They've got to be stoic
and tough. And that's a really archaic concept. Does that
still prevalent or does it still exist? Do you believe not?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
At the moment for us, so I've been through a
couple of awesome campaigns. Our Canterbury Nineteens campaign. Our coaches
did a fantastic job of explaining vulnerability, showing empathy, and
we had an awesome session with young men talking about
stuff that they probably haven't talked to about them with
their parents and it was just one of the best
I think surface of a couple of hours that I've
(11:03):
ever sat through. And we do the same with our
academy members each year. If we talk to them about
what some of the things that's been challenging for them
and what are they doing moving forward and how can
we help them? And there's a massive shift with this generation.
They're super self aware. I find that they understand a lot.
It's just now creating a space for them to be
able to one trust us, to be able to talk
and to be brave enough to do it.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
How many athletes actually do struggle with these spaces because
you're giving them all the tools they need. Is this
concept of a struggle life beyond rugby or having a
different aspect of your personality? Is that an older trope war?
Is that something that is still quite relevant in this
day and age.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I think with everyone in whatever profession you're in, right,
you get adversities and perceived diversities, and there's times where
people do struggle, and there's times where people are on
an absolute high and you know, we're never going to
get it perfect, and there will be times where people
do find it too much or do find and they
do step aside from rugby or even their career. A
lot of people make career choices right in different changes,
(12:05):
so it's no different and I guess what we're trying
to do is give them the space and people to
be able to help them make those decisions. If it's
too much, what's the support that I've gotten? Zella and
Rugby and the RPA have all some services for people
to reach out to as well. It's just it's just
come as part and parcel, and it's not just Rugby.
I'm dar say, if you talk to a lot of
people in the in the real world out there as
(12:28):
they call it, there'd be a lot of people struggling
with the same thing, and sometimes it's just situational.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks
there'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk zed.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Be article release today. You can find it nz hero
dot co dot ez. Jordan's Smith penned At discussing the
issue about young pro rugby players struggling with who they are,
trying to determine if they have a plan B. If
their goal of becoming a professional rugby player doesn't pan out.
(00:35):
Probably won't, but maybe when you're an academy level is
it there's a much better chance. But even the build
up to that, the head space of the kids, I
can call them that because I'm coming out level fifty six,
it's the difficult for them, very very hard. You remember
back to when you're seventeen, eighteen nineteen, I mean didn't
(00:55):
know anything. You think you're going to be a professional
rugby player and everything's going to be laid out for
you and it's going to be heaps of fun, and
then something stops it dead in the track. Are you
prepared for what I'd like to say, the individibility, inevitability.
Excuse me? I couldn't get that one out, could I?
Of not being a pro rugby player? The skills for
(01:17):
success in the world outside of rugby required number of
players to getting professional contracts, but it's a small fraction
of the kids who actually played the sport. Paul Gallant,
is that not Paul Gallon, the Monk Sharks player. Paul
Galland as the head of the Crusader's Academy, they've got
a massive emphasis on helping their academy players develop skills
(01:41):
outside running, passing, complaining to the referee and the like.
They're going to let them know that the players know
that there actually is a life outside of rugby. So
briares and it's good that this is being reinforced to
be joined by Paul now to discuss Hey, Paul good,
(02:04):
great story in the Herald today by a bloke called
Jordan Smith talking about rugby professionalism hurting New Zealand's young men.
And you're in a position now at the academy where
you're very aware of this and you're trying to not
transition players out of rugby, but let them understand there's
more to life than just rugby. Does that encapitulate it?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Well, yeah, it does. I think the academies across New
Zealand at the moment there's a massive emphasis on holistic development,
and that's making sure that we look after the players
inside these walls, but also outside of that too, So
all our academy members are either studying or they're either working.
We've got systems in place with mental skills, nutrition leadership,
(02:50):
personal development managers just to make sure that they are
setting themselves up for whatever life shows it them. And
these young men that come into these programs that don't
always become professional players, but there's some great young men
that come out and do some extraordinary things as well.
So it's an awesome space to be it.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
The development of this space, where is it going? Do
you think, like what happens next? Because it's old to
see a movable feast, so you're always trying different ideas,
so is it still got a lot of water to go?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
We're constantly challenging ourselves as a staff and group and
as a management group to see what the next generation
is like. You know, we've got Generation Z, Generation Alpha,
and there's different needs and different things societal pressures that
they deal with. So we're constantly pivoting around that to
see how we best support them, and we give it
our all and what an unbelievable opportunities Some of these
(03:42):
guys get And I remember going through school and coming
out and trying the sports avenue and it wasn't successful
at it, but there wasn't this wrap around support. It's
unreal what they get. And you know, we're just trying
to help them live their dreams. And sometimes their dreams
change as they go through to and things that can
alter that as injury or selection or just sometimes even
of pivot in life. So there's been some awesome young
(04:04):
men do some great things, and you've got to look
in the current rugby circles. Christian Leo Willi is a dentist.
Conrad Smith was a lawyer, so there's a coincide. So
I think it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Are they up for these young athletes when they come
through because we're only talking relatively young men here, and
I can say that because I'm getting a bit long
in the tooth, But are they up first? They accept this,
they're embracing this is something that's required for their future development. Yeah,
they do.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
It's all choice, right, Like they choose that they want
to be part of this pathway and you know, professionalism
does bring challenges, right and always will do. There's no
hiding the fact and we always try and help them
understand that herd's okay and that there will be times
where it's hard. And the things that we wrap around
is that the persistence and patience piece and handling hard
(04:51):
well and making sure that they understand build self awareness,
and that we wrap around the mental skills and tools
to be able to deal with because at the end
of the day, it is a choice, right, No one's
twisting their arm. They do choose that they want to
play rugby. But what can help them with stickley that
helps him achieve that.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Probably outside your sphere of influence. But how early do
you think this needs to start? Because I remember when
I was at school way back when in the mid
eighties and the first fifteen were superstars. They could almost
do no wrong, burn the building down to be okay,
it's not that bad, granted, because they had that concept
that they were entitled and that didn't help. Now it's
(05:31):
moved on, it's been forty years since that. But do
you think it needs to start quite young? Is it
through the parents? Is that through the schools or the clubs?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Other the school's do an awesome job like and setting
some of these guys upright there's some really really good
school programs, and I know that we can look from
the outside in and say Jesus is a little bit
of burnout there. But again, the wrap around support that
some of these schools give them and I've seen firsthand
is awesome. And you just got to look at the
way that schools operate now, and you know there's mental
health is a big thing, and making sure that they're
(06:01):
well rounded people is a big thing. And I've got
my five year old at school now and they've got
like a bit of a time out time that they
take just to reflect on the day. And how good
is that That would have never been the case. So yeah,
in terms of your question, are they up for it? Again,
it's a choice and we've just got to help them
do that. And everyone's so different. Like some guys come
in and they've got a lot of things nailed. Some
(06:22):
guys come in and they don't have a lot of
things nail, a lot of things nailed. So it's our
job to help shape them and help guide them and
help a system. And the way that we do that
is probably through trust and care. We can build their
trust and we actually care for them, well, then they're
going to go a long way. But it's not always rugby.
It's you know, there's like I said, these guys that
come out and do some awesome things them come out
(06:43):
to be great coaches too. You know, they feel that
that's their pathway. So yeah, are they up for it? Yep,
that's their choice and we're here to help it.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Well, it worked with Steve Hansen, didn't it. It was
an Oka midfielder, but it never really propelled anywhere further
ended up being one of the goats of coaches if
it would be. There's a concept around that professional sports
should be a plat B, not a plan A, whereas
quite often people say, well, if pro sport fails, here's
(07:12):
my plan B. But it's then the success rate. I
don't know what the percentage is of young men specifically
going into pro rugby. Not a great deal of them
actually end up with the chocolates, and not for a
great deal of time. So do you think the order
is wrong?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, well I've had this question ask me before around
a plan B. But it's just your plan. There's no
plan A plan D, Like, if one thing falls out,
it should all be part of the plan. I can't
imagine Christian leo'willy went in planning rugby thinking dentistry was
going to be his backup plan. You know, his dentistry
was his first piece and the rugby was the part
on the side. And so it does, it changes as well,
(07:52):
like it's all part of the plan and that's our
job is to help them understand that there is things
in there is life outside of rugby. How does that look?
What's part of their identity? Because you know, we can
easily attach rugby as part of their identity and we
do that very well as New Zealanders. Right, it's got
to be the b on end all, but there's so
much more outside of it. And that's the bit that
(08:13):
we have to help them with and help them understand
when the pressure comes on. What is the things that
who are the people that they can lean on for support,
what are the tools that they've got to be able
to support themselves and what's the bigger picture. Being a
good person is number one, and then being a good
Regua player is number two right as part of that
and having all the other bits and pieces around is
(08:34):
just the icing on the cake.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
These programs Taylor made for the individual. Do you have
to look at each person and take on board what
they've experienced, what they want. Is it that Taylor made?
Is it that accurate?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Well? Yeah, well we have a program that you know,
assembly times when guys come in and it's all outside
of study at work times, so that they come in
and they've got their gym and they've got their fearheld.
But they have one on one catch ups with mental
skills coaches, nutritionists, with myself. They have a thing called
an individual Performance Plan and they write their own notes
in that what are the things they are wanting to
(09:07):
achieve and how do they want to achieve it? And
then we help with well who can help you achieve that?
And how are you going to go about this? And
we've got awesome people in the best in their field
that help with mental skills and nutrition and that's giving
them tools.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Is there an acceptance amongst the youth coming through at
an academy level that there's a good chance they won't
end up being a pro rugby player with great success.
Are they cognizant of that reality?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah? They are. We always talk about that, and we
always talk about this life after rugby's life outside of rugby.
I know a lot of professionals talk about life inside
the lines, so inside the white line and then outside
the white line, and making sure that they really separate.
The two nine out of ten that come into our
Crusader's Academy pick up a professional contract of some form
of means, whether that's a provincial union, development contract, super contracts,
(09:58):
all the way up to the top level. So there
is a high success rate in terms of being a
professional paid to assemble or getting paid to play. But
they've also got that life outside, and we have to
make sure that that is a massive part of who
they are and part of their identity and who that
we help them become. Because you know, they're young men.
They just come in and they're full of gusto. But
(10:19):
there's a lot of times that we have to help
them and walk alongside them. That's really important.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
What about the emotional side of the sole toxic masculinity
situation of young men? Basically, they don't show their emotion,
they don't ask for help. They've got to be stoic
and tough. And that's a really archaic concept. Does that
still prevalent or does it still exist? Do you believe not?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
At the moment for us, so I've been through a
couple of awesome campaigns. Our Canterbury Nineteens campaign. Our coaches
did a fantastic job of explaining vulnerability, showing empathy, and
we had an awesome session with young men talking about
stuff that they probably haven't talked to about them with
their parents and it was just one of the best
I think surface of a couple of hours that I've
(11:03):
ever sat through. And we do the same with our
academy members each year. If we talk to them about
what some of the things that's been challenging for them
and what are they doing moving forward and how can
we help them? And there's a massive shift with this generation.
They're super self aware. I find that they understand a lot.
It's just now creating a space for them to be
able to one trust us, to be able to talk
and to be brave enough to do it.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
How many athletes actually do struggle with these spaces because
you're giving them all the tools they need. Is this
concept of a struggle life beyond rugby or having a
different aspect of your personality? Is that an older trope war?
Is that something that is still quite relevant in this
day and age.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I think with everyone in whatever profession you're in, right,
you get adversities and perceived diversities, and there's times where
people do struggle, and there's times where people are on
an absolute high and you know, we're never going to
get it perfect, and there will be times where people
do find it too much or do find and they
do step aside from rugby or even their career. A
lot of people make career choices right in different changes,
(12:05):
so it's no different and I guess what we're trying
to do is give them the space and people to
be able to help them make those decisions. If it's
too much, what's the support that I've gotten? Zella and
Rugby and the RPA have all some services for people
to reach out to as well. It's just it's just
come as part and parcel, and it's not just Rugby.
I'm dar say, if you talk to a lot of
people in the in the real world out there as
(12:28):
they call it, there'd be a lot of people struggling
with the same thing, and sometimes it's just situational.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks
there'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.