The way the Northern Tour rugby test matches were refereed has rugby fans frustrated and asking questions.
The TMO jumps in at every chance it gets, yellow and red cards are being handed out left and right - with several of the red cards dished out being rescinded due to the offence being deemed not worthy of being shown red.
Chris Pollock is the NZR High Performance Referee Manager and he caught up with D'Arcy to discuss the differences between refereeing Super Rugby and international rugby.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildegrave
from News Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Zedb referees from the Northern Test rugby series. Of all
of them, they've hit their headlines again. Right South African
Franco most that's had a red card against Italy rescind
it means he's free for selection when the Box play
the Iris over the weekend. So it's pretty clear that
(00:32):
these referees operate in Test rugby, oh differently to what
we see in Super rugby in New Zealand and Test
rugby in New Zealand as well. It's been a real
emphasis on ball and play and action with the Southern
hemisphere which which reflects the growth and Super rugby right
it's really starting to go forward. The fans are coming back,
(00:52):
they're engaged in the product because it's not stop start, boring,
whistlebound idiocy, well done. Test rugby different story, especially up
north with Tmo almost lives on the paddock. Cards are
flowing left and right and up and down and then
ro out the flow of the gate. Well it doesn't
have a flow. Take the first half of the Irish
(01:15):
match Soldier Field and Chicago. The Americans are going, what
are you doing, don't just do something. Stand there and
it's what they're up to. So the TMA gets right
in the way. TMO is right. Trouble the referees let
them do it as well. It's an issue. It's wrecking
the game in my not so humble opinion. So we're
(01:35):
joined now by Chris Pollock. He's the inside high performance
refereeing manager. It's going to discuss the difference is what
they are between refereeing and Super rugby and international rugby.
How do these two hemispheres actually come together to get
some consistency, some cohesion when this nation's championship kicks off
(01:58):
next year. Impossible questions, I'm sure, but I know I'll
get an answer, he joins us. Now, hey, Chris, does
see here going? I'm going very well, as I'm sure
you are too. It's a crazy role. You've got high
performance referee manager. Did you really want to get into
that place because suddenly you've got the weight of the
(02:18):
world on you, all the whistleblowers.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Well, the way I look at it, I can only
control what I can control, which is our competition. So
Super Rugby and EPC, so I don't feel like I've
got the weight of the world on me. But definitely
when we're in Super Season in NBC and how guys
are running around, Yeah, that's probably when there's a little
bit more scrutiny.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I think it's a fair thing to say that if
you look at what Super Rugby achieved this year and
the way the refereeing, the way the concept of the rules,
I can say that because the rules are very interesting
was applied to Super Rugby, made it a spectacle, made
it something that the fans really really engaged with. When
(03:01):
you go to the Northern Hemisphere, I know there's been
complaints here that since the game is over referee, So
what do you see is the primary difference between what
happens up North and what has happened in Super Rugby
and down when New Zealand conditions.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, I mean I think I think in New Zealand
and Australia, and I can't speak for Michael and Australia,
but I definitely know for us here is like I
see my job, along with Mike Frazer, who's ourhigh performance
referee coach, like our job is to try and make
the rules or the way that our guys referee as
simple as possible, so we feel like we've tried to
(03:38):
take some complexity out of it for them. I can't
speak about the world rugby space like I'm not sure
it's as simple as that for them. Like I feel
really sorry for our met officials when we go to
Test Rugby, like there's a whole lot more pressure on them.
And I'll be naive to sit here and say that
Test Rugby is the same as Super Rugby because the
pressures are very, very different. And I also know like
(04:00):
in the Northern Hemisphere, not that we we don't take
players safety seriously, because we definitely do, but that is
a massive driving force for them in the Northern Hemisphere.
And as such, I think someone like the TMO that
asked to do a lot more than what we ask
them to do in Super Rugby in NPC, like our
(04:22):
brief to our our sup rugbymos NBC is very simple,
Like there's a threshold that they can enter the game,
and it doesn't meet that they cannot enter the game,
And I think it makes it easier for them because
they're nice sitting there going should I come in for this?
Should I not coming for that? They know if it
doesn't meet from a from a foul play perspective, a
yellow card thresholder out and unless it is a clear
(04:45):
era by the on field team around tries that out
and we just trust our guys on field to do
their job, and we don't get it right all the time.
And like I said, I'd be naive to think it's
as simple as that at Test level because there are
a whole lot of pressures for that management group that
I probably don't feel.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
That's been difficult with the players when they fall on
and the essentially two different sets of rules or way
of applying those rules, and that can't be simple when
you move from Super to Test rugby, or you move
through hemispheres and the reefs, we've got to carry a
whole lot of that and the players just have to
I suppose work the reef out and then run through that.
(05:25):
That's what they've got to apply.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, it is challenging, but like to be fair, it's
no different to what it has been forever. Really, Like
if you take someone like Richie McCaul, what he was
so good at doing was first five to ten minutes
sussing out how a game was going to be officiated
that day and then adjusting the way that he played,
So I don't think it's any different, and we've just
got to have players that are really good at being
able to adapt to How about pusin Because even if
(05:48):
it's a normal hemisphere referee who referees in England compared
to a normal hemisphere referee that referees in France, you're
going to get a different interpretation around certain things anyway,
and it's the same from somebody who comes from the
South that they're all going to have slight different nuances.
And like I said, like our job is to try
to get our guys as a lined as possible and
make it a simple for them, but it worn't for
(06:10):
the crowds.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
The simplicity and you look at the nature of the rules,
it's you can we know this every breakdown you can
probably apply a penalty. So why do you think the
remit Southern Hemisphere is a little more a little looser
if you were in the Northern hemisphere Because it's the
same game. So how does it differ so much?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Don't I don't think the actual breakdown and that kind
of stuff does differ that much. I think the biggest
difference we see between the two is what I just
described earlier where in Test rugby they want the tmos
to be coming in for things like penalty only neck
rolls or like like we even will sit there and
say to our tmos forward passes, that's an on field get.
(06:56):
Knock on, that's an on field get unless it leads
to a try. Whereas those little things are different at
Test rugby. And it's not for me to say which
is right or which is wrong. And it's also not
for me to say why they believe that's the right
way to go. All I know is in our competitions,
that's the philosophy that we've chosen. We know that we're
in a market where it's about entertainment and we've got
(07:18):
to try and get their balance by applying the rules
in a smart way.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So the referees in the Southern Hymen for Australia and
New Zealand, when they referee internationally under whatever lords, because
you've got the twenty minute read card situation as well,
is it difficult for them to climb in and referee
under what is presumed from that international referees and think
hard and fast that they have to actually apply to
(07:43):
and they can't maybe run similar Supervalues.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
We definitely spend time with our guys when I'm walking
out of a Southern Hemisphere competition into the Test rugby
to go okay, well, what have you got to do
differently and just be smart about it. I don't think
they change the way they referee massively, but they do
get usked to do something slightly different, and that's the
referee management a word, rugulus their prerogative.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, even challenging, but they look to
it's really hard to know what they are thinking and
what you mentioned that's player safety is a lot of
things they're more interested in. But over here in New
Zealand it appears like New Zealand and Super Rugby, they're
interested in a free, flowing, expressive game that make people
(08:29):
turn up, and that's what happened at the start of
this year. There are a lot of happy people out there.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, but I mean, I also don't want to walk
away from the fact that player safety is massively important
to us as well. So we aren't turning a blind
eye to high tackles or dangerous cleanouts. What what we
are doing is trying to be more effective around if
we see that meets our threshold that goes to the bunker.
The bunker deals with it so we can keep keep
(08:56):
the game going. And I think that was probably what
we did really well this year as a metificiating team.
Is okay, our guys got really good at just going
replay yes or two replays, yes, it's hits us. Now
the off field review process takes takes over and we
get on with the game. And the same thing is
(09:16):
we really challenge our referees around making life decisions around trice.
So the play goes in into the corner and they
think they've got enough information to make a decision like
a try, they will award it and then they trust
them made upstairs. He will come in and tell them
if they're clearly wrong, and if he's not clearly wrong,
they stay out of it. So it's just it's just
(09:38):
we've just been trying to really get our guys to
take more ownership on field.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
What about in the future the Nations Championship that's been
set down that now talks between the hemispheres and the
way they referee, you'd suggest they want to kind of
maybe align themselves a little more. Now we've got to
direct Northeast South Championship Is there any work being done
(10:05):
in that space?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Cross, Yeah, I'm aware there is a shape of game meeting.
There always is one every year, but I know that
there's one in either February or March next year, which
will be pretty critical around the space. And I think,
you know, people just need to sit down and go, well,
what does the game need to be successful? Because I
think there's been there's been a lot of noise and
(10:27):
it's detrimental to our game. Like I love rugby and
I want it to be successful. So we've got to
find a way to be able to make sure that
we engage our fans again. And like I've got mates
that have been staunched rugby fans that just getting super
frustrated with it, and we can't afford it. So everybody's
got to put their ego aside, sit down at the
(10:48):
table and go, okay, well what is the way forward?
And we've got to hope that we've got the right
people in the room that we can do that.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
For more from Sports Talk, listen Lived and News Talks
there'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildegrave
from News Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Zedb referees from the Northern Test rugby series. Of all
of them, they've hit their headlines again. Right South African
Franco most that's had a red card against Italy rescind
it means he's free for selection when the Box play
the Iris over the weekend. So it's pretty clear that
(00:32):
these referees operate in Test rugby, oh differently to what
we see in Super rugby in New Zealand and Test
rugby in New Zealand as well. It's been a real
emphasis on ball and play and action with the Southern
hemisphere which which reflects the growth and Super rugby right
it's really starting to go forward. The fans are coming back,
(00:52):
they're engaged in the product because it's not stop start, boring,
whistlebound idiocy, well done. Test rugby different story, especially up
north with Tmo almost lives on the paddock. Cards are
flowing left and right and up and down and then
ro out the flow of the gate. Well it doesn't
have a flow. Take the first half of the Irish
(01:15):
match Soldier Field and Chicago. The Americans are going, what
are you doing, don't just do something. Stand there and
it's what they're up to. So the TMA gets right
in the way. TMO is right. Trouble the referees let
them do it as well. It's an issue. It's wrecking
the game in my not so humble opinion. So we're
(01:35):
joined now by Chris Pollock. He's the inside high performance
refereeing manager. It's going to discuss the difference is what
they are between refereeing and Super rugby and international rugby.
How do these two hemispheres actually come together to get
some consistency, some cohesion when this nation's championship kicks off
(01:58):
next year. Impossible questions, I'm sure, but I know I'll
get an answer, he joins us. Now, hey, Chris, does
see here going? I'm going very well, as I'm sure
you are too. It's a crazy role. You've got high
performance referee manager. Did you really want to get into
that place because suddenly you've got the weight of the
(02:18):
world on you, all the whistleblowers.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Well, the way I look at it, I can only
control what I can control, which is our competition. So
Super Rugby and EPC, so I don't feel like I've
got the weight of the world on me. But definitely
when we're in Super Season in NBC and how guys
are running around, Yeah, that's probably when there's a little
bit more scrutiny.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I think it's a fair thing to say that if
you look at what Super Rugby achieved this year and
the way the refereeing, the way the concept of the rules,
I can say that because the rules are very interesting
was applied to Super Rugby, made it a spectacle, made
it something that the fans really really engaged with. When
(03:01):
you go to the Northern Hemisphere, I know there's been
complaints here that since the game is over referee, So
what do you see is the primary difference between what
happens up North and what has happened in Super Rugby
and down when New Zealand conditions.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, I mean I think I think in New Zealand
and Australia, and I can't speak for Michael and Australia,
but I definitely know for us here is like I
see my job, along with Mike Frazer, who's ourhigh performance
referee coach, like our job is to try and make
the rules or the way that our guys referee as
simple as possible, so we feel like we've tried to
(03:38):
take some complexity out of it for them. I can't
speak about the world rugby space like I'm not sure
it's as simple as that for them. Like I feel
really sorry for our met officials when we go to
Test Rugby, like there's a whole lot more pressure on them.
And I'll be naive to sit here and say that
Test Rugby is the same as Super Rugby because the
pressures are very, very different. And I also know like
(04:00):
in the Northern Hemisphere, not that we we don't take
players safety seriously, because we definitely do, but that is
a massive driving force for them in the Northern Hemisphere.
And as such, I think someone like the TMO that
asked to do a lot more than what we ask
them to do in Super Rugby in NPC, like our
(04:22):
brief to our our sup rugbymos NBC is very simple,
Like there's a threshold that they can enter the game,
and it doesn't meet that they cannot enter the game,
And I think it makes it easier for them because
they're nice sitting there going should I come in for this?
Should I not coming for that? They know if it
doesn't meet from a from a foul play perspective, a
yellow card thresholder out and unless it is a clear
(04:45):
era by the on field team around tries that out
and we just trust our guys on field to do
their job, and we don't get it right all the time.
And like I said, I'd be naive to think it's
as simple as that at Test level because there are
a whole lot of pressures for that management group that
I probably don't feel.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
That's been difficult with the players when they fall on
and the essentially two different sets of rules or way
of applying those rules, and that can't be simple when
you move from Super to Test rugby, or you move
through hemispheres and the reefs, we've got to carry a
whole lot of that and the players just have to
I suppose work the reef out and then run through that.
(05:25):
That's what they've got to apply.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, it is challenging, but like to be fair, it's
no different to what it has been forever. Really, Like
if you take someone like Richie McCaul, what he was
so good at doing was first five to ten minutes
sussing out how a game was going to be officiated
that day and then adjusting the way that he played,
So I don't think it's any different, and we've just
got to have players that are really good at being
able to adapt to How about pusin Because even if
(05:48):
it's a normal hemisphere referee who referees in England compared
to a normal hemisphere referee that referees in France, you're
going to get a different interpretation around certain things anyway,
and it's the same from somebody who comes from the
South that they're all going to have slight different nuances.
And like I said, like our job is to try
to get our guys as a lined as possible and
make it a simple for them, but it worn't for
(06:10):
the crowds.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
The simplicity and you look at the nature of the rules,
it's you can we know this every breakdown you can
probably apply a penalty. So why do you think the
remit Southern Hemisphere is a little more a little looser
if you were in the Northern hemisphere Because it's the
same game. So how does it differ so much?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Don't I don't think the actual breakdown and that kind
of stuff does differ that much. I think the biggest
difference we see between the two is what I just
described earlier where in Test rugby they want the tmos
to be coming in for things like penalty only neck
rolls or like like we even will sit there and
say to our tmos forward passes, that's an on field get.
(06:56):
Knock on, that's an on field get unless it leads
to a try. Whereas those little things are different at
Test rugby. And it's not for me to say which
is right or which is wrong. And it's also not
for me to say why they believe that's the right
way to go. All I know is in our competitions,
that's the philosophy that we've chosen. We know that we're
in a market where it's about entertainment and we've got
(07:18):
to try and get their balance by applying the rules
in a smart way.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
So the referees in the Southern Hymen for Australia and
New Zealand, when they referee internationally under whatever lords, because
you've got the twenty minute read card situation as well,
is it difficult for them to climb in and referee
under what is presumed from that international referees and think
hard and fast that they have to actually apply to
(07:43):
and they can't maybe run similar Supervalues.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
We definitely spend time with our guys when I'm walking
out of a Southern Hemisphere competition into the Test rugby
to go okay, well, what have you got to do
differently and just be smart about it. I don't think
they change the way they referee massively, but they do
get usked to do something slightly different, and that's the
referee management a word, rugulus their prerogative.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, even challenging, but they look to
it's really hard to know what they are thinking and
what you mentioned that's player safety is a lot of
things they're more interested in. But over here in New
Zealand it appears like New Zealand and Super Rugby, they're
interested in a free, flowing, expressive game that make people
(08:29):
turn up, and that's what happened at the start of
this year. There are a lot of happy people out there.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, but I mean, I also don't want to walk
away from the fact that player safety is massively important
to us as well. So we aren't turning a blind
eye to high tackles or dangerous cleanouts. What what we
are doing is trying to be more effective around if
we see that meets our threshold that goes to the bunker.
The bunker deals with it so we can keep keep
(08:56):
the game going. And I think that was probably what
we did really well this year as a metificiating team.
Is okay, our guys got really good at just going
replay yes or two replays, yes, it's hits us. Now
the off field review process takes takes over and we
get on with the game. And the same thing is
(09:16):
we really challenge our referees around making life decisions around trice.
So the play goes in into the corner and they
think they've got enough information to make a decision like
a try, they will award it and then they trust
them made upstairs. He will come in and tell them
if they're clearly wrong, and if he's not clearly wrong,
they stay out of it. So it's just it's just
(09:38):
we've just been trying to really get our guys to
take more ownership on field.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
What about in the future the Nations Championship that's been
set down that now talks between the hemispheres and the
way they referee, you'd suggest they want to kind of
maybe align themselves a little more. Now we've got to
direct Northeast South Championship Is there any work being done
(10:05):
in that space?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Cross, Yeah, I'm aware there is a shape of game meeting.
There always is one every year, but I know that
there's one in either February or March next year, which
will be pretty critical around the space. And I think,
you know, people just need to sit down and go, well,
what does the game need to be successful? Because I
think there's been there's been a lot of noise and
(10:27):
it's detrimental to our game. Like I love rugby and
I want it to be successful. So we've got to
find a way to be able to make sure that
we engage our fans again. And like I've got mates
that have been staunched rugby fans that just getting super
frustrated with it, and we can't afford it. So everybody's
got to put their ego aside, sit down at the
(10:48):
table and go, okay, well what is the way forward?
And we've got to hope that we've got the right
people in the room that we can do that.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
For more from Sports Talk, listen Lived and News Talks
there'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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