December 16, 2025 • 9 mins
It was announced today that a lower sternum tackle height was going to be implemented in the elite game of rugby for the first time at the World U20 Championships in Georgia next year.
It follows a successful trial in community rugby that has seen 11 countries implement these rules which resulted in 10 percent reduction in upright tackles, and some of the unions reporting a reduction in concussion rates.
Mike Hester is the Head of Rugby Participation and Development at New Zealand Rugby and he joined D'Arcy to discuss further.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So today it came out lower Sternham tackle height. It
was going to be implemented in the well, I suppose
elite rugby you'd call it. For the first time. It's
the World Under twenty Championships in Georgia next year. Very
successful trial and community rugby here in eleven countries implement
these rules which resulted in, among other things, ten percent
(00:35):
reduction and upright tackles and some of the unions reporting
are reduction and concussion rates. There's plenty more as well.
I've got the list I run through it for you Eventually.
New Zealand was one of the countries that ran the trial.
We're joined now by Mike Hester ahead of rugby participation
in development in z Are, who oversaw the experiment for
(00:56):
one of a better word. He's going to fill us
in know on what changes the community game in New
Zealand has seen from the implementation of these lower tackle laws. Mike, welcome,
thanks for having me on and thanks for joining us.
So all of these ideas about tackle heights and what's
been implemented, well, it's getting up to an elite level
(01:17):
now the World Under twenty Champs in twenty twenty six.
They are now taking on board everything that's been worked
on for the last three years.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah, it's really heartening to see where this has got
to now after sort of three or four years worth
of effort on our part sort of exploring what a
sort of lower tackle he might look like around the
standum and now to see it sort of coming into
community law from one July next year, and then obviously
it's now starting to.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Be trilled and sort of the upper reaches of the
game is really encouraging.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So it's been trialed at that level, you expect with
that trial that will result in it actually been implemented
based on what you've achieved over the last three years.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Mike, I guess it'll be for those that sort of
are in charge of the sort of elite game around
what they want that shape the game to look like.
But what we know in the community space is that
the players that we're dealing with, the coaches we're dealing with,
the style of play that they're able to put up
with each each week is somewhat different to the professional
(02:18):
and high performance games.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
So what we've done is really made sure that you know, we've.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Responded really well to what community partessipants want and what
they can deal with. So we know that lower tackle
height has been really helpful for both the safety of
the game but also improving the appeal of it because
we've seen sort of more ball or available more ball.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
And play more offloads, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
So we know that in the community space that's added
real value, and they need to start doing those trolls
in the elite space to see what it looks like
at the high level.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Might we talk more about the positives? But being the media,
what went wrong over the three years? Did you find
the anything that you really didn't expect that needs to
be cleaned up?
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I think it's fair to say that.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
We saw really good adaptation from players once they could
see that it was value in it. We saw coaches
sort of responding to the fact that this was a
requirement and they started to coach sayer techniques and promote
safe for techniques.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Probably what we haven't.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Seen is a response to how to take advantage of
that from a tactical perspective. So if people are tackling live,
then it means that the balls more available and you
can offload more. So that has a fly and effect
of how you set up your attack and your defense patterns,
and probably that still needs a bit more time to mature,
and so that wasn't sort of unexpected, but we haven't
(03:34):
seen that come to the fore as much.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
We've seen people more adapt.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
To it from a compliance perspective as opposed to how
to take advantage of it from a tactical perspective.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
They're that will probably grow. What it has highlighted is
that we need to provide.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
A bit more support to our referees around when they're
doing it really well, because we don't have a strong
sort of performance feedback system for a referee, So when
they're really policing this well and doing a really good job,
we don't really have a good system to tell them that. Likewise,
if they're not perhaps as accurate as we would like
them to be or players would like them to be,
we also don't have a telling them where the opportunity
(04:08):
for improvements are. So that's also been a key learning
that's coming through from the trolls.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
By and large, do the referees find it easy enough
to implement this with what they've had was it something
that the players accepted that the referees found easy enough
to set down.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I think it refereing oftensly requires really good understanding of pictures,
and these are not easy pictures to see. I mean
when you've got a lot of bodies or colliding trying
to work out who's made the first tackle. Because in
our trial that we trolled, it was quite different to
other parts of the world where the first tackler must
be below the sternum, but the second and subsequent tacklers
(04:46):
could tackle above the.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Line of the shoulders.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
So there was a slightly more complicated picture for referees
to see because you've got to try to judge who
was first, and so that that has been a bit
of feedback has come through.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
It is hard to see that picture.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And particularly close to the line when there's a lot
of bodies or trying to prevent their ball getting across
the goal on there.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
So that was probably a key thing for referees.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
But as with many things, if we just provide good
support to them keep showing the pictures, We've seen good
adaptation or adoption of that. I've been at a number
of community games, some of them at low levels in
the system where I've been really impressed by how referees
have been really just pushing hard.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
On right, You've got to get your tackles low, get
your techles low. I want to see that ball available
more in those tackles.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So that's been really really encouraging to see the response
and the referee so they're doing a great job.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Anecdotally, the players and the coaches, what has their response been,
what has their feedback been.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, largely what we've seen is really positive feedback about
what it does to the safety of the game. So
people have felt safer both as ball carriers and tacklers
as a result of lower tackle height, but also the
impact that it's had on the flow of the game.
You know, more ball and play, more offloads, We're getting
a slightly less you know, we're not getting sort of
(06:08):
as much opportunity for defenses to set because the ball
is more available. And so some of the stats that
have come through over the last three years around the
amount offloads and both the men's and the women's game have
been really encouraging.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
So that you know, that kind of fits with the
way we want to see the game played.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
As with many things we do, law trials, there is
a little bit of wait and see, you know, how
hard are the referee is going to police us?
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Are they serious about it? They're going to stick with it?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And so the fish year or so, there was always
a little bit of you know, just betting it in,
but now it's becoming pretty commonly accepted. So again really
encouraging to see how the sort of communities responded to.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And what's your engagement being like with World Rugby around
putting this under twenty championship under the auspices of these
these laws, the what do you call them, the e
ed s l V the Experimental Domestic Safety Law variations.
I mean it's not domestic, but how much did they
take from what you've done? And there are going to.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Apply part of a World Rugby trial around tackle height.
I think there's eleven member unions that are involved, and
so between all of us, I think they've coded around
one hundred and fifty thousand tackles and about the impact
of those both in terms.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Of safety and appeal.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
What's quite interesting in this particular troll they're doing the
under twenties is that it is adopting the New Zealand
variant of the troll. So we were the only country
that was doing a split tackle approach where first tackler
blood sternum second one and subsequent tacklers above the line
and the shoulders, and the rationale for that our hypothesis
(07:43):
at the beginning of the trial, we want to see
does that make a difference to the tackling players and
where their heads end up, because typically it can happen
is is you drop the height the target for those tacklers,
their heads usually en up in the same airspace around
the back of the tackling so you get what's called
friendly fire where they kind of head clashes and someone
(08:04):
may recall seeing that in a few All Blacks matches
over the last couple of years with their extental head
clash between two defenders.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
So that's the trial that we would think.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
So Will Rugby were quite interested in what the metrics
were showing around around that. The jury on that is
still a little bit out and so that's why they're
wanting to trial that to see what that looks like
with with slightly more capable players under more controlled situations.
So we'll see where that goes the community trials or
the community changes for next year. Will be that everyone
will blow be below the sternum, So could while be
(08:34):
they're starting to look at what are the modifications that
might contemplate for the elite game.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Do you get a sense, Mike Hast, that this will
be eventually implemented at all levels of seeing their rugby
right the way up to internationals, there is there a
want was sort of desire for this.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I think the press release when Will Rugby suggests that
that might be some time away. I think you know
that the evidence is certainly really strong in the community space.
When they've experimented with this in the elite space, it's
been a little bit more mixed, and so I think
that's why they just need to continue doing trials. Because
the athletes are different. They're a lot more prepared that
(09:11):
the pace at which they move, et cetera. Moments to
make these decisions are a lot more compressed. So I
think certainly the community space.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Evidence is really strong. This is a good move.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
What the adaptation of that looks like in elite space
time will tell, but certainly, you know, the evidence around
loud Tackle Heights certainly is really compelling.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Good news story for Christmas, Mike Hester, we thank you
so much for spending some time with us, and you
see on the head of participation for end Z are Mike.
You have a great Christmas.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Same to you, Thanks Lassie.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks
they'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Wildergrave
from News Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So today it came out lower Sternham tackle height. It
was going to be implemented in the well, I suppose
elite rugby you'd call it. For the first time. It's
the World Under twenty Championships in Georgia next year. Very
successful trial and community rugby here in eleven countries implement
these rules which resulted in, among other things, ten percent
(00:35):
reduction and upright tackles and some of the unions reporting
are reduction and concussion rates. There's plenty more as well.
I've got the list I run through it for you Eventually.
New Zealand was one of the countries that ran the trial.
We're joined now by Mike Hester ahead of rugby participation
in development in z Are, who oversaw the experiment for
(00:56):
one of a better word. He's going to fill us
in know on what changes the community game in New
Zealand has seen from the implementation of these lower tackle laws. Mike, welcome,
thanks for having me on and thanks for joining us.
So all of these ideas about tackle heights and what's
been implemented, well, it's getting up to an elite level
(01:17):
now the World Under twenty Champs in twenty twenty six.
They are now taking on board everything that's been worked
on for the last three years.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah, it's really heartening to see where this has got
to now after sort of three or four years worth
of effort on our part sort of exploring what a
sort of lower tackle he might look like around the
standum and now to see it sort of coming into
community law from one July next year, and then obviously
it's now starting to.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Be trilled and sort of the upper reaches of the
game is really encouraging.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So it's been trialed at that level, you expect with
that trial that will result in it actually been implemented
based on what you've achieved over the last three years.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Mike, I guess it'll be for those that sort of
are in charge of the sort of elite game around
what they want that shape the game to look like.
But what we know in the community space is that
the players that we're dealing with, the coaches we're dealing with,
the style of play that they're able to put up
with each each week is somewhat different to the professional
(02:18):
and high performance games.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
So what we've done is really made sure that you know, we've.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Responded really well to what community partessipants want and what
they can deal with. So we know that lower tackle
height has been really helpful for both the safety of
the game but also improving the appeal of it because
we've seen sort of more ball or available more ball.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
And play more offloads, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
So we know that in the community space that's added
real value, and they need to start doing those trolls
in the elite space to see what it looks like
at the high level.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Might we talk more about the positives? But being the media,
what went wrong over the three years? Did you find
the anything that you really didn't expect that needs to
be cleaned up?
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I think it's fair to say that.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
We saw really good adaptation from players once they could
see that it was value in it. We saw coaches
sort of responding to the fact that this was a
requirement and they started to coach sayer techniques and promote
safe for techniques.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Probably what we haven't.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Seen is a response to how to take advantage of
that from a tactical perspective. So if people are tackling live,
then it means that the balls more available and you
can offload more. So that has a fly and effect
of how you set up your attack and your defense patterns,
and probably that still needs a bit more time to mature,
and so that wasn't sort of unexpected, but we haven't
(03:34):
seen that come to the fore as much.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
We've seen people more adapt.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
To it from a compliance perspective as opposed to how
to take advantage of it from a tactical perspective.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
They're that will probably grow. What it has highlighted is
that we need to provide.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
A bit more support to our referees around when they're
doing it really well, because we don't have a strong
sort of performance feedback system for a referee, So when
they're really policing this well and doing a really good job,
we don't really have a good system to tell them that. Likewise,
if they're not perhaps as accurate as we would like
them to be or players would like them to be,
we also don't have a telling them where the opportunity
(04:08):
for improvements are. So that's also been a key learning
that's coming through from the trolls.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
By and large, do the referees find it easy enough
to implement this with what they've had was it something
that the players accepted that the referees found easy enough
to set down.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I think it refereing oftensly requires really good understanding of pictures,
and these are not easy pictures to see. I mean
when you've got a lot of bodies or colliding trying
to work out who's made the first tackle. Because in
our trial that we trolled, it was quite different to
other parts of the world where the first tackler must
be below the sternum, but the second and subsequent tacklers
(04:46):
could tackle above the.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Line of the shoulders.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
So there was a slightly more complicated picture for referees
to see because you've got to try to judge who
was first, and so that that has been a bit
of feedback has come through.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
It is hard to see that picture.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And particularly close to the line when there's a lot
of bodies or trying to prevent their ball getting across
the goal on there.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
So that was probably a key thing for referees.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
But as with many things, if we just provide good
support to them keep showing the pictures, We've seen good
adaptation or adoption of that. I've been at a number
of community games, some of them at low levels in
the system where I've been really impressed by how referees
have been really just pushing hard.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
On right, You've got to get your tackles low, get
your techles low. I want to see that ball available
more in those tackles.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
So that's been really really encouraging to see the response
and the referee so they're doing a great job.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Anecdotally, the players and the coaches, what has their response been,
what has their feedback been.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, largely what we've seen is really positive feedback about
what it does to the safety of the game. So
people have felt safer both as ball carriers and tacklers
as a result of lower tackle height, but also the
impact that it's had on the flow of the game.
You know, more ball and play, more offloads, We're getting
a slightly less you know, we're not getting sort of
(06:08):
as much opportunity for defenses to set because the ball
is more available. And so some of the stats that
have come through over the last three years around the
amount offloads and both the men's and the women's game have
been really encouraging.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
So that you know, that kind of fits with the
way we want to see the game played.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
As with many things we do, law trials, there is
a little bit of wait and see, you know, how
hard are the referee is going to police us?
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Are they serious about it? They're going to stick with it?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And so the fish year or so, there was always
a little bit of you know, just betting it in,
but now it's becoming pretty commonly accepted. So again really
encouraging to see how the sort of communities responded to.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And what's your engagement being like with World Rugby around
putting this under twenty championship under the auspices of these
these laws, the what do you call them, the e
ed s l V the Experimental Domestic Safety Law variations.
I mean it's not domestic, but how much did they
take from what you've done? And there are going to.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Apply part of a World Rugby trial around tackle height.
I think there's eleven member unions that are involved, and
so between all of us, I think they've coded around
one hundred and fifty thousand tackles and about the impact
of those both in terms.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Of safety and appeal.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
What's quite interesting in this particular troll they're doing the
under twenties is that it is adopting the New Zealand
variant of the troll. So we were the only country
that was doing a split tackle approach where first tackler
blood sternum second one and subsequent tacklers above the line
and the shoulders, and the rationale for that our hypothesis
(07:43):
at the beginning of the trial, we want to see
does that make a difference to the tackling players and
where their heads end up, because typically it can happen
is is you drop the height the target for those tacklers,
their heads usually en up in the same airspace around
the back of the tackling so you get what's called
friendly fire where they kind of head clashes and someone
(08:04):
may recall seeing that in a few All Blacks matches
over the last couple of years with their extental head
clash between two defenders.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
So that's the trial that we would think.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
So Will Rugby were quite interested in what the metrics
were showing around around that. The jury on that is
still a little bit out and so that's why they're
wanting to trial that to see what that looks like
with with slightly more capable players under more controlled situations.
So we'll see where that goes the community trials or
the community changes for next year. Will be that everyone
will blow be below the sternum, So could while be
(08:34):
they're starting to look at what are the modifications that
might contemplate for the elite game.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Do you get a sense, Mike Hast, that this will
be eventually implemented at all levels of seeing their rugby
right the way up to internationals, there is there a
want was sort of desire for this.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I think the press release when Will Rugby suggests that
that might be some time away. I think you know
that the evidence is certainly really strong in the community space.
When they've experimented with this in the elite space, it's
been a little bit more mixed, and so I think
that's why they just need to continue doing trials. Because
the athletes are different. They're a lot more prepared that
(09:11):
the pace at which they move, et cetera. Moments to
make these decisions are a lot more compressed. So I
think certainly the community space.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Evidence is really strong. This is a good move.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
What the adaptation of that looks like in elite space
time will tell, but certainly, you know, the evidence around
loud Tackle Heights certainly is really compelling.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Good news story for Christmas, Mike Hester, we thank you
so much for spending some time with us, and you
see on the head of participation for end Z are Mike.
You have a great Christmas.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Same to you, Thanks Lassie.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
For more from sports talk, listen live to news Talks
they'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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