July 15, 2025 • 22 mins
An award-winning research psychologist, author, and consultant, Erin brings a wealth of experience in employee well-being, work-life integration, and leadership development. She has been recognized for her research in improving performance and thriving at work and in life, with over 100 articles and book contributions across academic and popular press outlets such as the Journal of Applied Psychology and MIT Sloan Management Review. As a former executive at BetterUp, Erin led Labs Go-to Market, where her team used behavioral science insights to drive revenue and strategic growth
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank you so much for listening to the Art of Improvement.
I'm Karen Klaus. My guest today doctor Aaron Eta, co
founder and chief science officer of Fractional Insights. My conversation
with doctor Etah coming up next on the Art of Improvement.
(00:20):
Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Karen
Klaus and my guest today is doctor Aaron Etah. She
is the co founder and chief science officer of something
called Fractional Insights. Thank you so much for taking the
time today.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hi, Karen, Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Thank
you so much for having me. Oh.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
After reading a little bit about Fractional Insights and what
you do, of course I was totally confused, baffled, intrigued
because one, not only do you deal with us as
human employees, but you also deal or look at the
psychology of how AI has made it into the workplace.
(01:02):
But can you, maybe for me and our listeners right now,
just tell me what is Fractional Insights. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So we are a research, fact consulting, an advisory firm
and we are founded by two organizational psychologists, me and
my co founder, Shana Waters, and we use a method
that we call psychological ergonomics to help companies really align
their workplace for how people really think and behave and
(01:31):
this reduces friction, improves performance, and helps transformation for the
future of work.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Well, doctor Eta, why is this? Why has this not
been done before? It seems like every time people join
a workforce, they either say you took a psychology test
and you fit into our group. Somebody knows somebody and
that's how they got a job. But why is it
now that you are saying, Hey, it's it's more than
(02:00):
your personality. It's more than you know, just taking in
a personality profile.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
How is it that you reach this point?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, well, I think it's interesting, you know the different
ways in which we've applied psychology to work in the past,
And you're very right to point out that a large
majority of how we've used psychology in application for business
performance has been in selection, so assess people into the
right jobs, and that is a very powerful way of
(02:30):
applying psychology. But there's actually a lot more to the
field of organizational psychology than just selection and assessment. And
one of the reasons why I think it hasn't been
fully applied to its maximum or optimized extent to date
is because we have really organizational psychology is a pretty
(02:51):
young field relative to other fields of science, and we've
done lots of research over the last you know, one
hundred years and handful of decades. In particular, the field
has really grown and exploded in popularity and investment and
in the production of you know, scientists and experts who
have been trained in this. And because of my background
(03:13):
was in academia before I went into industry, so I
was a professor for a while and saw firsthand, you know,
the structures and incentive systems in the academic industry they're
just not really set up for good translation. And so
we're just now starting to really get a foothold in
(03:34):
doing the applied translational research that helps organizational psychology extend
beyond assessment and selection to really consider the design of
work systems and processes and how work can be set
up to really optimize human impact and performance. And now
it's such an amazing time to do that because so
(03:57):
many organizations, nearly every organization is really grappling with the
fundamental questions of things like what is a job, what
is a kit?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
What are they still?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
How do we use these constructs to design work in
a way that isn't harmonious with AI, so that we
can get the most out of our investments, both in
human capital and technological capital.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
It's funny because as you are speaking about this, yes,
it is very exciting because I feel like for myself,
I don't know. I mean, there's no such thing as lucky.
You get a job because of who you are and
what you know. I would assume in the beginning, But
there I always felt like there were parts of me
(04:42):
that no employer could possibly find out about, or you know,
about the inner me, And so I wonder, and let
me just instead of using myself, use Elon Musk. So
say you are an employer and Elon Musk comes and applies, like,
how in the world are you going to get to
(05:04):
the bottom of what goes on in that guy's brain?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I mean, I know he's like a CEO now.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Of many companies, but how is it how is it
that organizational psychology could have figured him out before he
became who he is? I know that's a that's a
bizarre question, but it applies to so many people who
have so many facets, don't you think, yeah, totally?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, I mean there's you know, every person is multi dimensional,
right like we all have dimensions, and Elon Musk is
no exception where you know, there's there's obviously lots of
media attention on him and writing and even at fractional insights.
We we just released an insights report about the transformation
of the organization of the US government through DOGE and
(05:52):
what the impact on human psychology has been from those
transformation efforts. So that's kind of aside but related.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
No, I'm I'm so interested in that.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, but I think to your question, you know,
there's all kinds of methodologies that we can use, and
even with the explosion of AI technology today, it's getting
even more sophisticated, and how we are assessing not just
people's personality and not just reading their resumes to understand,
(06:22):
you know, what their background and experience levels are, but
really what are their skills? What are the fundamental units
of knowledge, skills and abilities that people hold, and how
can we match those most appropriately to the job and
even anticipate what other kinds of past projects or experiences
(06:42):
the organization might need in the future, and how well
that individual is going to be set up to be
fit for those as time goes on in the organization evolve,
So there's all kinds of really exciting ways that we're
starting to assess people. One of the things that SHAWNA
and I at fractional in are really interested in and
that we've been studying is really at the root core
(07:05):
of how people behave and how they're motivated to perform.
Can we start to understand what those motivational factors are
and then understand what that means for how the system
of work should be set up. I love that, yeah,
to address them. And so one of the things that
we're looking at are three common or core human needs.
(07:28):
Because human psychology, it turns out it's pretty consistent over time.
So even as the workplace changes through the industrial revolution
to the digital revolution in the early two thousands to
today with this AI era transformation, we keep changing the
different types of tools and context in which people are working,
(07:48):
but really our basic fundamental human needs remain the same.
And so if we can start to understand the basic
fundamental human needs better, we can design work under any
context under do that in a way that really optimizes
the value of the power of human creativity, of human potential,
and our ability to use humans to really solve the
(08:11):
most pressing world problems there. So yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
No, no, no, it's just that I have about a billion questions.
But before I ask at least just one of them,
I want to reintroduce you, Doctor Aaron Eta, is the
co founder and chief science officer for Fractional Insights. When
you're saying that, it almost sounds too good to be true,
and it makes my heart hurt to think that every
(08:37):
company wouldn't care so deeply about their employees and the
future of their company by who they're hiring, that they
wouldn't use this organizational psychology to get the best people
in and not necessarily the ones that have the best resume,
but the people that are I guess, multifaceted and have
the potential to fulfill maybe slots in their company that
(09:03):
they don't even have knowledge of yet.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I know that that sounds really crazy, but it.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Sounds it sounds fantastic, and so I guess my question
is it feels like there is such an age gap
in my mind from the way things were when I
was getting hired to now. My daughters are about to
graduate from college and you know, set out on getting
(09:29):
their first career job. I mean, what you talked about
the needs that people have when it comes to their jobs,
is there any possibility of you talking about those I mean,
it seems crazy that you said everybody has these similar needs?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
What are they?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, So what we've found is that, well, first of all,
I want to caveat everything by saying, there's a lot
of theories of motivation and psychology out there, and we
are not the first psychologist to be discussing these you know,
these basic core motivators. However, our framework, kind of spanning
across all the different philosophies, is that there's three core
(10:10):
human needs. Both are security, our needs to feel safe, secure,
have financial stability, and a fair predictable environment that's free
of threats. The second core need is significance, so our
need to feel like our work matters, that we matter,
that we are seen and heard, and that we're making
(10:31):
a difference and we're not just wasting our time. And
the third is our need for growth. And that's because
as humans, we all are trying to evolve into a
higher level of self and continue developing even through adulthood
all the way to the end, we're still learning and
growing and we want to be able to do that
and use our skills.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So I get you, absolutely, and that was the same
when I started, and it will be the same for
my own daughter.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Those are You're right, those are basic needs.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Is there anything as a first time employee setting, you know,
their first foot forward when it comes to their career
that they should ask themselves when it comes to the
companies that they are interviewing with.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, that's a great question. Well. One of the things
that we studied was was really whether there are essentially
profiles of individuals in terms of their need constellation, what
they really value and prioritize in terms of their needs,
and how work meets those needs. Because we can get
our needs met in all kinds of different ways. You know,
(11:38):
I can find growth and learning by doing hobbies outside
of work, and I can learn new things like gardening
or something like that, and that fulfills my need to
continue to learn and grow. So the degree to which
we look to work to fulfill those needs varies across people,
and we found three dominant profiles in a study that
(11:59):
we did across the thousand US workers who are full
time employees in the US, spanning industries and all of that,
and one of the profiles is it's called a universalist.
So the universalists want work to meet all three of
those needs, and they expect, you know, a lot out
of their organization. They also tend to give a lot
(12:19):
to their organization, so they're.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Kind of all in.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
They want to be treated and seen as a whole person.
They want all of their needs to be met sort
of in full through their organizational experience, and they give
a lot of themselves to their organization as well. The
other profile is a transactionalist. Now, transactionalists, as you might expect,
are kind of like want I want security, and if
you give me security, fair pay, health benefits, you know
(12:45):
you're not mistreating me. There's not a lot of unfairness.
This is a pretty transactional exchange. I give you my time,
my energy, my attention, and you give me money and
health care and access to base the human needs. We're good.
And then the final profile are people we call stewards
because they are stewards of their own growth. So while
they do want their organization to provide them with security
(13:08):
and a sense of meaning and purpose, they are not
necessarily looking for the same level of opportunity to learn
and grow as other individuals and like to steward that
experience for themselves outside of their organizational relationship. Now, one
of the things that we found relative to your question
about early generations or the younger generations entering the workforce
(13:32):
and what they look for, is that when we looked
across generations to see how those profiles differed generation to generation,
and given the amount of attention that we collectively have
been spending thinking about gen Z and this new generational
entry into the workforce, I was surprised, but in a
way delighted to find that there is absolutely no differential.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Proportion well the universe, Yeah, of universe.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Let's transactionalist stewards across generations. So if you get low
enough in the root motivators of human behavior, we tend
to find that a lot of the rhetoric about what
people want or what they're looking for, Yeah, at the
surface level, it might look a little bit different, but
at the core, at your basic human needs, we're all
kind of the same. And it doesn't really matter what
(14:21):
generation we're talking about, or gender for that matter, or
parental status, race. I mean, we looked at a bunch
of demographics and none of them resulted in any significant differences.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
During your entire career. Is it possible to change categories?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Oh? I think so?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, Okay, I think.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I mean, I think that. I think that as we
learn and grow and you know, our needs and context change,
for sure. I mean I've I've experienced that, uh even
even myself, and I'm sure we could. We could probably
each think of examples where, you know, at a time,
we might we might really just need a secure paycheck.
And you know, when I was growing up my parents,
(15:01):
you know, I watched them, you know, move around for
different jobs, you know, to get higher pay or to
feel more secure in their environment. I saw my mom
take work just so that we could get access to
healthcare when my you know, when my father was not
in a position where he was getting healthcare. And so,
you know, these are things that you know, we're all
(15:22):
we're kind of recalculating all the time, but we're trying
to optimize for those basic human needs one way or another.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
That is so interesting In a way, I hate it.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I hate it because you know, it's so weird that
we would be, you know, like broken down into categories.
But at the same time, it makes so much sense,
because when you said these three categories universalists, transactional list,
I can't remember. And then Steward, yeah, I was thinking, well,
(15:54):
you can think of people you're co workers that fall
into any of those categories, and it doesn't mean lower
on the totem pole, higher on the totem pole, because
there are those that may be a universalist. And I
am just assuming that I'm correct, and I want you
to say, no care and you're wrong, but I am
assuming that even if you're a universalist, it doesn't mean
(16:14):
that you're motivated by money or you know, climbing the ladder.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Is that true or false?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I think that's true. I mean, I think that money
is a representation of a sense of security, and you know,
there's so much psychology wrapped up in money. But really,
if we're optimizing for security, that can look like a
variety of different things. And people who have financial security,
you know, say they are very you know, independently wealthy
(16:43):
or whatever. What we find is that they still want
to participate in work, and that's because there's value in
work from significance and growth as well. And so yeah,
I mean, I think constructs like money and benefit these
things are representative of underlying more core, more root human
(17:07):
needs by which our behavior is motivated. And what's important
to know about that when we're designing systems for the
future and we're thinking about AI and its role and
the workforce in the workplace, is that we have to
think about the systems that we're setting up in order
to not get in our own way. So what I
mean by that is if we are creating a sense
(17:29):
of threat in the environment where AI is considered to
be a potential factor that's going to make us obsolete, irrelevant,
that our work no longer has purpose or is important,
or that it's fundamentally changing how we're valued. These are
(17:49):
really threats to security needs. And so what we need
to do collectively or as organizational leaders who are trying
to transform for the future is to really consider all
the design choices that we're making and how they are
going to impact the fundamental basic human psychology and design
(18:10):
in a way that gets the organizations needs met by
very carefully understanding how that's going to impact the psychology
of the people that it's affecting.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I love that you have just put it into one
sentence and it makes so much sense.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So if you are just now joining us.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Doctor Aaron Eta is the co founder and Chief Science
Officer of Fractional Insights.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Who is it?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I mean, of course every company if they only would
hire you, it would be fantastic. But who is it
that you have found has reached out to you or
who is it when it comes to corporations should be
looking at getting together with you and Fractional Insights.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah. Well, what we're seeing in the landscape right now
is that the transformation of organisms to this new era
where we've got so much horsepower available to us through
AI and robots and additional you know, features from technology.
Is that historically we've thought about technology falling under sort
(19:16):
of the chief Innovation Officer and the human resources and
people falls under the CHRO or you know, the human
resources function, and then we've got work transfer chief transformation officers.
We have the CEOSO, you know, ultimately you know, responsible
for the performance of the organization holistically. And what we're
(19:36):
noticing is that many organizations don't yet have this playbook
figured out, so they don't yet know who is going
to own, uh, the strategy and decision makings around organizational redesign.
The integration of a AI. How are we going to
know if we're successful as we begin transformation? What does
success even look like? And which criterion are we really
(20:00):
optimizing for? And so there's a lot of different models
that we're noticing, but it could be any of those
persona for In addition, it could even be the board
of directors or the investors who really have an important
stakeholder role in the performance of organizations who do need
to transform to stay competitive, to continue to drive efficiency
(20:21):
and performance. And so there's a lot of people that
really care about this problem space, and any of them
are good candidates for us actually supportly.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
And I love that about the board because a lot
of times people that I guess drive or you know,
they really want to join a board of directors.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
May not even know why they want to do that.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
And so the companies that hire these boards or you know,
bring them on, it really could change the dynamic of
their own company if they don't know the motivations of
the people that they have making those decisions.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
That's pretty interesting. So how do people get in touch
with you?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
You can contact me at Fractionalinsights dot ai. That's our
web address. You can also find me on LinkedIn, Aaron Etah.
You can find my co founder Shana Waters there and
our business page. We're constantly posting content, releasing new white
papers and research reports. We have a newsletter that you
(21:25):
can subscribe to on our website.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
That's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I hope that more companies become interested in getting somebody
like you to help them find those future stars. And
I don't know how many tests I've taken where I
asked what was the biggest problem I ever faced, because
maybe there's more to the life of an employee on
finding out what was their biggest work problem and how
(21:52):
did they solve it, and maybe there's more to.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
It, right, Yeah, yes, absolutely, well.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I cannot way to talk to doctor SHAWNA. Waters, your
business partner, I guess, and I truly appreciate the insight
into fractional insights, and I wish you all the best
because I think this very bizarre workforce and workplace that
we are entering, especially with AI, needs that human touch
(22:21):
and it seems that you have it.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Oh, thank you so much, Karen. It's such a pleasure
to speak with you, and thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Absolutely hope we talked soon. Thanks a lot, all right,
thank you,
Thank you so much for listening to the Art of Improvement.
I'm Karen Klaus. My guest today doctor Aaron Eta, co
founder and chief science officer of Fractional Insights. My conversation
with doctor Etah coming up next on the Art of Improvement.
(00:20):
Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Karen
Klaus and my guest today is doctor Aaron Etah. She
is the co founder and chief science officer of something
called Fractional Insights. Thank you so much for taking the
time today.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hi, Karen, Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. Thank
you so much for having me. Oh.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
After reading a little bit about Fractional Insights and what
you do, of course I was totally confused, baffled, intrigued
because one, not only do you deal with us as
human employees, but you also deal or look at the
psychology of how AI has made it into the workplace.
(01:02):
But can you, maybe for me and our listeners right now,
just tell me what is Fractional Insights. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So we are a research, fact consulting, an advisory firm
and we are founded by two organizational psychologists, me and
my co founder, Shana Waters, and we use a method
that we call psychological ergonomics to help companies really align
their workplace for how people really think and behave and
(01:31):
this reduces friction, improves performance, and helps transformation for the
future of work.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Well, doctor Eta, why is this? Why has this not
been done before? It seems like every time people join
a workforce, they either say you took a psychology test
and you fit into our group. Somebody knows somebody and
that's how they got a job. But why is it
now that you are saying, Hey, it's it's more than
(02:00):
your personality. It's more than you know, just taking in
a personality profile.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
How is it that you reach this point?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, well, I think it's interesting, you know the different
ways in which we've applied psychology to work in the past,
And you're very right to point out that a large
majority of how we've used psychology in application for business
performance has been in selection, so assess people into the
right jobs, and that is a very powerful way of
(02:30):
applying psychology. But there's actually a lot more to the
field of organizational psychology than just selection and assessment. And
one of the reasons why I think it hasn't been
fully applied to its maximum or optimized extent to date
is because we have really organizational psychology is a pretty
(02:51):
young field relative to other fields of science, and we've
done lots of research over the last you know, one
hundred years and handful of decades. In particular, the field
has really grown and exploded in popularity and investment and
in the production of you know, scientists and experts who
have been trained in this. And because of my background
(03:13):
was in academia before I went into industry, so I
was a professor for a while and saw firsthand, you know,
the structures and incentive systems in the academic industry they're
just not really set up for good translation. And so
we're just now starting to really get a foothold in
(03:34):
doing the applied translational research that helps organizational psychology extend
beyond assessment and selection to really consider the design of
work systems and processes and how work can be set
up to really optimize human impact and performance. And now
it's such an amazing time to do that because so
(03:57):
many organizations, nearly every organization is really grappling with the
fundamental questions of things like what is a job, what
is a kit?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
What are they still?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
How do we use these constructs to design work in
a way that isn't harmonious with AI, so that we
can get the most out of our investments, both in
human capital and technological capital.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
It's funny because as you are speaking about this, yes,
it is very exciting because I feel like for myself,
I don't know. I mean, there's no such thing as lucky.
You get a job because of who you are and
what you know. I would assume in the beginning, But
there I always felt like there were parts of me
(04:42):
that no employer could possibly find out about, or you know,
about the inner me, And so I wonder, and let
me just instead of using myself, use Elon Musk. So
say you are an employer and Elon Musk comes and applies, like,
how in the world are you going to get to
(05:04):
the bottom of what goes on in that guy's brain?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I mean, I know he's like a CEO now.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Of many companies, but how is it how is it
that organizational psychology could have figured him out before he
became who he is? I know that's a that's a
bizarre question, but it applies to so many people who
have so many facets, don't you think, yeah, totally?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, I mean there's you know, every person is multi dimensional,
right like we all have dimensions, and Elon Musk is
no exception where you know, there's there's obviously lots of
media attention on him and writing and even at fractional insights.
We we just released an insights report about the transformation
of the organization of the US government through DOGE and
(05:52):
what the impact on human psychology has been from those
transformation efforts. So that's kind of aside but related.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
No, I'm I'm so interested in that.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, but I think to your question, you know,
there's all kinds of methodologies that we can use, and
even with the explosion of AI technology today, it's getting
even more sophisticated, and how we are assessing not just
people's personality and not just reading their resumes to understand,
(06:22):
you know, what their background and experience levels are, but
really what are their skills? What are the fundamental units
of knowledge, skills and abilities that people hold, and how
can we match those most appropriately to the job and
even anticipate what other kinds of past projects or experiences
(06:42):
the organization might need in the future, and how well
that individual is going to be set up to be
fit for those as time goes on in the organization evolve,
So there's all kinds of really exciting ways that we're
starting to assess people. One of the things that SHAWNA
and I at fractional in are really interested in and
that we've been studying is really at the root core
(07:05):
of how people behave and how they're motivated to perform.
Can we start to understand what those motivational factors are
and then understand what that means for how the system
of work should be set up. I love that, yeah,
to address them. And so one of the things that
we're looking at are three common or core human needs.
(07:28):
Because human psychology, it turns out it's pretty consistent over time.
So even as the workplace changes through the industrial revolution
to the digital revolution in the early two thousands to
today with this AI era transformation, we keep changing the
different types of tools and context in which people are working,
(07:48):
but really our basic fundamental human needs remain the same.
And so if we can start to understand the basic
fundamental human needs better, we can design work under any
context under do that in a way that really optimizes
the value of the power of human creativity, of human potential,
and our ability to use humans to really solve the
(08:11):
most pressing world problems there. So yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
No, no, no, it's just that I have about a billion questions.
But before I ask at least just one of them,
I want to reintroduce you, Doctor Aaron Eta, is the
co founder and chief science officer for Fractional Insights. When
you're saying that, it almost sounds too good to be true,
and it makes my heart hurt to think that every
(08:37):
company wouldn't care so deeply about their employees and the
future of their company by who they're hiring, that they
wouldn't use this organizational psychology to get the best people
in and not necessarily the ones that have the best resume,
but the people that are I guess, multifaceted and have
the potential to fulfill maybe slots in their company that
(09:03):
they don't even have knowledge of yet.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I know that that sounds really crazy, but it.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Sounds it sounds fantastic, and so I guess my question
is it feels like there is such an age gap
in my mind from the way things were when I
was getting hired to now. My daughters are about to
graduate from college and you know, set out on getting
(09:29):
their first career job. I mean, what you talked about
the needs that people have when it comes to their jobs,
is there any possibility of you talking about those I mean,
it seems crazy that you said everybody has these similar needs?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
What are they?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, So what we've found is that, well, first of all,
I want to caveat everything by saying, there's a lot
of theories of motivation and psychology out there, and we
are not the first psychologist to be discussing these you know,
these basic core motivators. However, our framework, kind of spanning
across all the different philosophies, is that there's three core
(10:10):
human needs. Both are security, our needs to feel safe, secure,
have financial stability, and a fair predictable environment that's free
of threats. The second core need is significance, so our
need to feel like our work matters, that we matter,
that we are seen and heard, and that we're making
(10:31):
a difference and we're not just wasting our time. And
the third is our need for growth. And that's because
as humans, we all are trying to evolve into a
higher level of self and continue developing even through adulthood
all the way to the end, we're still learning and
growing and we want to be able to do that
and use our skills.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So I get you, absolutely, and that was the same
when I started, and it will be the same for
my own daughter.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Those are You're right, those are basic needs.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Is there anything as a first time employee setting, you know,
their first foot forward when it comes to their career
that they should ask themselves when it comes to the
companies that they are interviewing with.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, that's a great question. Well. One of the things
that we studied was was really whether there are essentially
profiles of individuals in terms of their need constellation, what
they really value and prioritize in terms of their needs,
and how work meets those needs. Because we can get
our needs met in all kinds of different ways. You know,
(11:38):
I can find growth and learning by doing hobbies outside
of work, and I can learn new things like gardening
or something like that, and that fulfills my need to
continue to learn and grow. So the degree to which
we look to work to fulfill those needs varies across people,
and we found three dominant profiles in a study that
(11:59):
we did across the thousand US workers who are full
time employees in the US, spanning industries and all of that,
and one of the profiles is it's called a universalist.
So the universalists want work to meet all three of
those needs, and they expect, you know, a lot out
of their organization. They also tend to give a lot
(12:19):
to their organization, so they're.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Kind of all in.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
They want to be treated and seen as a whole person.
They want all of their needs to be met sort
of in full through their organizational experience, and they give
a lot of themselves to their organization as well. The
other profile is a transactionalist. Now, transactionalists, as you might expect,
are kind of like want I want security, and if
you give me security, fair pay, health benefits, you know
(12:45):
you're not mistreating me. There's not a lot of unfairness.
This is a pretty transactional exchange. I give you my time,
my energy, my attention, and you give me money and
health care and access to base the human needs. We're good.
And then the final profile are people we call stewards
because they are stewards of their own growth. So while
they do want their organization to provide them with security
(13:08):
and a sense of meaning and purpose, they are not
necessarily looking for the same level of opportunity to learn
and grow as other individuals and like to steward that
experience for themselves outside of their organizational relationship. Now, one
of the things that we found relative to your question
about early generations or the younger generations entering the workforce
(13:32):
and what they look for, is that when we looked
across generations to see how those profiles differed generation to generation,
and given the amount of attention that we collectively have
been spending thinking about gen Z and this new generational
entry into the workforce, I was surprised, but in a
way delighted to find that there is absolutely no differential.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Proportion well the universe, Yeah, of universe.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Let's transactionalist stewards across generations. So if you get low
enough in the root motivators of human behavior, we tend
to find that a lot of the rhetoric about what
people want or what they're looking for, Yeah, at the
surface level, it might look a little bit different, but
at the core, at your basic human needs, we're all
kind of the same. And it doesn't really matter what
(14:21):
generation we're talking about, or gender for that matter, or
parental status, race. I mean, we looked at a bunch
of demographics and none of them resulted in any significant differences.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
During your entire career. Is it possible to change categories?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Oh? I think so?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, Okay, I think.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I mean, I think that. I think that as we
learn and grow and you know, our needs and context change,
for sure. I mean I've I've experienced that, uh even
even myself, and I'm sure we could. We could probably
each think of examples where, you know, at a time,
we might we might really just need a secure paycheck.
And you know, when I was growing up my parents,
(15:01):
you know, I watched them, you know, move around for
different jobs, you know, to get higher pay or to
feel more secure in their environment. I saw my mom
take work just so that we could get access to
healthcare when my you know, when my father was not
in a position where he was getting healthcare. And so,
you know, these are things that you know, we're all
(15:22):
we're kind of recalculating all the time, but we're trying
to optimize for those basic human needs one way or another.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
That is so interesting In a way, I hate it.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I hate it because you know, it's so weird that
we would be, you know, like broken down into categories.
But at the same time, it makes so much sense,
because when you said these three categories universalists, transactional list,
I can't remember. And then Steward, yeah, I was thinking, well,
(15:54):
you can think of people you're co workers that fall
into any of those categories, and it doesn't mean lower
on the totem pole, higher on the totem pole, because
there are those that may be a universalist. And I
am just assuming that I'm correct, and I want you
to say, no care and you're wrong, but I am
assuming that even if you're a universalist, it doesn't mean
(16:14):
that you're motivated by money or you know, climbing the ladder.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Is that true or false?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I think that's true. I mean, I think that money
is a representation of a sense of security, and you know,
there's so much psychology wrapped up in money. But really,
if we're optimizing for security, that can look like a
variety of different things. And people who have financial security,
you know, say they are very you know, independently wealthy
(16:43):
or whatever. What we find is that they still want
to participate in work, and that's because there's value in
work from significance and growth as well. And so yeah,
I mean, I think constructs like money and benefit these
things are representative of underlying more core, more root human
(17:07):
needs by which our behavior is motivated. And what's important
to know about that when we're designing systems for the
future and we're thinking about AI and its role and
the workforce in the workplace, is that we have to
think about the systems that we're setting up in order
to not get in our own way. So what I
mean by that is if we are creating a sense
(17:29):
of threat in the environment where AI is considered to
be a potential factor that's going to make us obsolete, irrelevant,
that our work no longer has purpose or is important,
or that it's fundamentally changing how we're valued. These are
(17:49):
really threats to security needs. And so what we need
to do collectively or as organizational leaders who are trying
to transform for the future is to really consider all
the design choices that we're making and how they are
going to impact the fundamental basic human psychology and design
(18:10):
in a way that gets the organizations needs met by
very carefully understanding how that's going to impact the psychology
of the people that it's affecting.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I love that you have just put it into one
sentence and it makes so much sense.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So if you are just now joining us.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Doctor Aaron Eta is the co founder and Chief Science
Officer of Fractional Insights.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Who is it?
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I mean, of course every company if they only would
hire you, it would be fantastic. But who is it
that you have found has reached out to you or
who is it when it comes to corporations should be
looking at getting together with you and Fractional Insights.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah. Well, what we're seeing in the landscape right now
is that the transformation of organisms to this new era
where we've got so much horsepower available to us through
AI and robots and additional you know, features from technology.
Is that historically we've thought about technology falling under sort
(19:16):
of the chief Innovation Officer and the human resources and
people falls under the CHRO or you know, the human
resources function, and then we've got work transfer chief transformation officers.
We have the CEOSO, you know, ultimately you know, responsible
for the performance of the organization holistically. And what we're
(19:36):
noticing is that many organizations don't yet have this playbook
figured out, so they don't yet know who is going
to own, uh, the strategy and decision makings around organizational redesign.
The integration of a AI. How are we going to
know if we're successful as we begin transformation? What does
success even look like? And which criterion are we really
(20:00):
optimizing for? And so there's a lot of different models
that we're noticing, but it could be any of those
persona for In addition, it could even be the board
of directors or the investors who really have an important
stakeholder role in the performance of organizations who do need
to transform to stay competitive, to continue to drive efficiency
(20:21):
and performance. And so there's a lot of people that
really care about this problem space, and any of them
are good candidates for us actually supportly.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
And I love that about the board because a lot
of times people that I guess drive or you know,
they really want to join a board of directors.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
May not even know why they want to do that.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
And so the companies that hire these boards or you know,
bring them on, it really could change the dynamic of
their own company if they don't know the motivations of
the people that they have making those decisions.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
That's pretty interesting. So how do people get in touch
with you?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
You can contact me at Fractionalinsights dot ai. That's our
web address. You can also find me on LinkedIn, Aaron Etah.
You can find my co founder Shana Waters there and
our business page. We're constantly posting content, releasing new white
papers and research reports. We have a newsletter that you
(21:25):
can subscribe to on our website.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
That's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I hope that more companies become interested in getting somebody
like you to help them find those future stars. And
I don't know how many tests I've taken where I
asked what was the biggest problem I ever faced, because
maybe there's more to the life of an employee on
finding out what was their biggest work problem and how
(21:52):
did they solve it, and maybe there's more to.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
It, right, Yeah, yes, absolutely, well.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I cannot way to talk to doctor SHAWNA. Waters, your
business partner, I guess, and I truly appreciate the insight
into fractional insights, and I wish you all the best
because I think this very bizarre workforce and workplace that
we are entering, especially with AI, needs that human touch
(22:21):
and it seems that you have it.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Oh, thank you so much, Karen. It's such a pleasure
to speak with you, and thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Absolutely hope we talked soon. Thanks a lot, all right,
thank you,
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