October 24, 2025 • 23 mins
Last week, President Trump commuted George Santos’ prison sentence — a decision that’s prompted both surprise and reflection. Producer Amy Gaines McQuade walks Jake Halpern through the news and checks back in with people who knew Santos to hear their reactions.
For more on Mark’s reporting on George Santos, check out his book: The Fabulist - The Lying, Hustling, Grifting, Stealing and Very American Legend of George Santos.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. Welcome back to deep Cover. I'm
in your feed today with an update about a story
that we covered last summer. You might remember it. My
producer Amy Gains McQuaid and I did a deep dive
into the world of George Santos, a former Republican congressman
(00:37):
from New York who pled guilty to wire fraud and
identity theft. I called up Amy because well, there's been
quite a development in the last week. Hey, Amy, Hey Jake.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So I'll just cut you it the news we're here
to talk about. On Friday, President Trump commuted Georgeantos's sentence,
sending shockwaves through the political world.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
George Santos is the gift that keeps on giving.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I did not think we'd be here so many months
after releasing this series talking about this, but here we are.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, So just talk us through this. How did we
get to this point?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
So, if you remember, Santos pled guilty to two charges,
wire fraud and aggravated identity theft. That was last summer,
August twenty twenty four. I was actually in the courtroom
for that plea hearing, and at the time Santos told
the judge you know, I accept full responsibility for my actions.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
They set his sentencing.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
For April, and at that time he was actually sentenced
to eighty seven months, a little over seven years. He
was always going to face at least two years because
of the identity theft charge that he pled to that
carries a two year minimum. His lawyers had asked the
judge if he could be sentenced to the minimum that
two years, but the judge at sentencing didn't agree with
(02:12):
that and felt that Santos deserved a sentence on the
higher end of the guideline. So actually the guideline said
seventy five to eighty seven, and the judge ultimately.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Handed down the maximum.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
He reported to prison in July, and then three months
later he's released.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Okay, So I know, like I heard this on Sunday
for Saul, I immediately thought of you. I was like,
what is Amy thinking. I mean, to me, it felt
like a bombshell. They came out of nowhere. But I'm
wondering the people that you spoke with who are close
to the story, were they surprised by this.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I've heard from a lot of folks that we
talked to for the original series, and I think across
the board, there was a lot of shock and surprise.
I called up Kathy Soref, who, if you remember, was
one of George Santos's donors.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
The only thing I can say is he was so
is far too long for what he did. In my opinion,
Were you expecting this to happen? No, it was a
complete shock. You know, I cried. I haven't been thinking
about it, but it was like, what, you know, I
(03:26):
guess people think that Trump is vengeful. I don't think
he is vengeful. I think he wants to hold people accountable,
and I think he is actually you know, has a
very soft and compassionate side to him. And I think
he thought that George. I don't. I could be completely
wrong about this. I'm trying interprojecting what President Trump was thinking.
(03:50):
But why are we going to finance? I mean, how
much does it cost to keep a prisoner in prison
for a year? And do we want to spend that
on George.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
It's interesting to hear like Kathy's basically like a prison
reform advocate. Did you have any sense that that was
like part of her deal?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Kathy sa I wouldn't characterized as a prison reform advocate.
In particular, Kathy was very careful with me to draw
a distinction between violent and nonviolent offenders. I think that
she has a much harder line stance when it comes
to violent offenders, and in this case, she doesn't think
that George Santos is a real risk to the community
(04:28):
non violent criminals.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
You know, humiliation is a pretty potent punishment.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
So do you think that three months was an adequate
sentence for what he pled to?
Speaker 4 (04:43):
I think that the time of it is not as
significant as the experience that he probably had. I mean,
you know, that's one reason why people don't want to
be in jail. They get there and it's harsh.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I have a lot of questions about Kathy, but I
wonder if it's actually helpful to just take a step
back here. President Trump, what is he said about why
he commuted Santos's sentence.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So when the news broke it was onwhere Else Truth
Social Friday night, President Trump had posted quote, George Santos
was somewhat of a rogue. That's in quotes, But there
are many rogues throughout our country that aren't forced to
serve seven years in prison. So you can see they're
the president kind of indicating he didn't necessarily agree with
(05:30):
the sentence that had been handed down. He had also
said at least Santos had the courage, conviction and intelligence
to always vote Republican.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
What does that mean? Like, why is he calling out
that Santos always voted Republican. I feel like with President Trump,
there's often like a subtext. Do you have a sense
of what the subtext is there?
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I think the subtext in this case is pretty It's
a neon sign, It's George Santos has been a vocal,
consistent supporter of President Trump.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
Early on, I had been waiting for this to happen.
I think a lot of people had been. Santos himself
had been kind of begging Trump for connotation apart in
just kind of any relief at all, and he'd been
a big support of Trump for a long time. So
this wasn't surprising.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
When I heard the news, I gave a call to
Mark Gasanov. He's the author of The Fabulous, who we
spoke to for the original series. His book is a
deeply reported biography of Santos.
Speaker 6 (06:27):
Trump had been pardoning or commuting a lot of people's sentences,
so this wouldn't have been the craziest thing in the world.
So I and a lot of people had been waiting
for it to happen. But the months dragged on and
nothing did. So kind of assumes that maybe Santos was
going to stay in prison for at least a long time,
a longer time than he spent. But you know, as
(06:49):
with everything with Santos, it's your surprise, but nothing, nothing
can shock you.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I want to impact that a bit. You had almost
been expecting this.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
It sounds like, why is that. Well, Santos had been
a big Trump supporter and booster for years, I mean
at least since twenty fifteen, and it was one of
the fews things that he was totally just kind of
unchangeable about. Right. He would go to rallies, he would
(07:17):
boost him on social media. He actually spoke on January fifth,
twenty twenty one, right before the January sixth Capitol riot.
He continued sort of boosting Trump even after, you know,
his fall from grace. He showed up at Trump's New
Hampshire victory party, and then once he actually went to prison,
(07:39):
he kept writing basically kind of op eds for a
small newspaper on long Island, and in those op eds
he was sort of bagging Trump for something, to let
him out, help him out in some ways. So he
kind of kept it up, and he'd been a sort
of loyal Trump soldier in a way that you know,
others haven't been, So you know, it was not so surprising,
(08:02):
I guess to see Trump react to that, to that
sort of constant flattery and approval.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
That Mark is like, I'm only surprised it didn't happen sooner,
and Kathy's like, I'm surprised it happened at all.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, well, I think that Marx beide is politics. And
if you're paying attention, you've noticed that this is not
the first act of clemency that has happened under the
new Trump administration.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I'm saying new, but it's been less than a year.
Speaker 6 (08:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
In that time, President Trump has pardoned more than sixteen
hundred people, which is pretty remarkable, unprecedented for this early
in the presidential term. You know, fifteen hundred of those
were people who were involved in the events of January sixth.
So he's also commuted many sentences, and we should talk
about that a little bit, because a pardon is different
(08:50):
than a commutation.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, so this was a commutation, right.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
This was a commutation, not a pardon.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
So what is that like in plainspeak, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Pardon is a full It basically wipes your slate clean.
The crime is forgiven. A commutation just means we're wrapping
up your time spent in incarceration. So George Santos was
released from prison late Friday night after this commutation was announced.
It doesn't change the fact that he was still charged
with these crimes. He still pled guilty to these crimes,
(09:23):
and he still served time for these crimes, and that
will follow him for the rest of his life. This
is something that actually Kathy Sorif stressed to me when
I talked to her.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
He wasn't pardoned.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
His sentence was commuted. So he will have to live
with the dishonor that he caused himself. That will not
go away, and hopefully he will find some way to
redeem himself by good work.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Any sense for why President Trump would have opted to
commute his sentence rather than just give him a pardon.
Maybe that would have Maybe that would have upset the
party in some way that they could It almost feels
like it could be a compromise.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Well, and this was really the question that I had
for Kathy what we're talking about here, because Kathy sores
she is a Republican and she is a big backer
of President Trump.
Speaker 5 (10:17):
I know you to be a you know, a vocal
supporter of President Trump, but also someone who has no
love lost.
Speaker 6 (10:25):
For George Santos.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
So I'm just curious how you square those two things
in a moment like this.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Well, I don't really know. I don't know what Trump
was thinking. I don't I don't know other than just
saying that he thought the long prison sentence was unfair
and why are we He's not a danger to society.
His humiliation will carry with him for a long time,
and that is quite a punishment. I didn't understand what
(10:56):
benefit it would be. Certainly it's not a political benefit
for Trump to pardon George Santos. George Santos isn't going
to do a good darn thing for Trump, and by
doing it, actually I thought it might have been harmful.
So I didn't understand the source other than Trump thinking
it just not fair that he had been sentenced really
(11:19):
too harshly.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I'm a little skeptical about I mean, like, I mean,
the question is a fair one, like why would he
do this? I'm somewhat dubious this is just done out
of a sense of justice. I think that that doesn't
ring true to me. I could think of a few
reasons why this would be good for him to do.
I mean, it reinforces the idea that if you're loyal
to me, I will look out for you down the road.
(11:43):
It's another day where he's in charge of the news cycle.
It also casts further doubt on a justice system that
he's run into before. But I always think that, like
Donald Trump is a really smart strategist about the way
he does things. I don't think he does things just
He may do things on a whim, but it's following
an instinct. And I'm just I'm just wondering what you
(12:05):
think his strategy was here or why he did this.
Is it just like a Is this just thank you
for being loyal and if you're loyal to me, no
matter what you've done, you get redeemed Or do you
think there's more to it than that.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I think that there's an argument to be made that
Santos's loyalty is a huge factor in why we're talking
right now and why Santos has been released. I think
the other factor that we have to discuss is that
he was held in solitary confinement, and from what we know,
it seems like that's something that caught the president's attention.
You heard Mark reference earlier. George Santos has been writing
(12:42):
this sort of regular column for a newspaper on Long
Island called The Soushore Press.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
His most recent column came out just about a week ago,
and he seems to be speaking to the president almost directly.
He says, quote, I renew my plea to President Trump.
Intervene helped me escape this daily torment and let me
return to my family. So this really like heartfelt plea
for release.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
He he talks about his experience in solitary confinement.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Remind us why is he in solitary confinement?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
George Santos found himself in solitary confinement. From the reporting
that's out there, it seems he was not placed in
solitary for any disciplinary reasons. He was placed in solitary
because of an actual threat to his life. Then, so
sometimes they might segregate an inmate for their own safety,
but what George Santos maintains is that the conditions that
he was held in were far from humane. He asked
(13:38):
for his inhaler, and it took him hours, if not days,
to receive it. He had panic attacks. So, I mean,
solitary confinement is a real thing that this country has
to grapple with. There are over forty thousand estimated inmates
being held in solitary at any given time in this country.
It is considered a form of torture according to you
(13:59):
and guidelines, and you know, the psychological effects. You know,
the actual conditions you're held in are one thing, but
kind of what you carry with you after you leave
is an entirely different conversation. This was clearly on the
president's radar, right, So in that initial truth Social post,
he called it out explicitly saying, quote, George has been
(14:20):
in solitary confinement for long stretches of time and by
all accounts, has been horribly mistreated. Therefore, I just signed
a commutation releasing him from prison.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Good luck, George, have a great life.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I mean it's interesting because you know, if you imagine
a world where George Santos was only sentenced to three
months and he served his time and get out today,
versus a storyline where George Santos had been sentenced to
seven years was being held in solitary confinement and Donald
(14:57):
Trump gives him this commutation and tells him good luck.
I mean, it feels like for a man who likes
dramatic storylines, it feels like a much more dramatic storyline. Plus,
you've been kind of what you call it communtation, call
it pardon. You've been blessed by President Trump, which is
very meaningful in many circles in this country.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Absolutely, I will say it's interesting. The story of George
Santos remains really fascinating to me in its many evolutions,
because I think, you know, it's easy to dismiss him.
You know, he's a con artist, and why are we
even still talking about this guy? But I think throughout
this saga, you know, George Santos has been a really
(15:39):
interesting window into the realities of the systems of the
criminal legal system. There are millions of people who interact
with our court system and our prison system every day,
but they are not famous, they do not have names
that you recognize. But here we are talking about solitary confinement,
(16:00):
talking about mandatory minimums, talking about what it means to
have a felony on your record because it's in the
news because of George Santos.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
We'll be right back. Have we heard from George since
he's been released?
Speaker 7 (16:30):
So?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
George Santos posted on Saturday, the day after he was released, saying, quote,
yesterday I was given something I never thought i'd have again,
a true second chance at life, a chance to grow,
to change, and to walk a better path. He goes
on to say, my goal now is to turn my
(16:52):
past into something meaningful, to help create a justice system
that truly believes in rehabilitation and second chances. Yes, I
am back, but I am back as a new man,
ready to work and do good.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I mean, what's what's so interesting about this to me
is Sando's as many things, dumb is clearly not one
of them. Whether he's sincere or there's a hustle here
remains to be seen. But I think that what he
does is he's picking up He's using something that's real,
(17:30):
which is his own experience. He's using something that's real,
which is solitary confinement. It's like an organic storyline. It's
just the given who this guy is. It's damn hard
to take anything he says at face value. Let me
ask you this because this is what I'm also wondering about,
is restitution, right, So what about that? Like, is he
(17:50):
still on the hook for that?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
So over the weekend, one of the US Parton attorneys
who handled the commutation actually tweeted out what appears to
be the actual document that Trump signed, and it's in
black and white, pretty clear language that this is an
immediate commutation of his entire sentence time served with no
(18:15):
further fines, restitution, probation, supervis release, etc.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Etca.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So it seems on paper he is not on the
hook for this. Santos appeared on CNN over the weekend,
interviewed by Dana Bash and she actually asked him this
exact question.
Speaker 7 (18:33):
You were ordered to by the court to pay three
hundred and seventy thousand dollars in restitution to the people
you defrauded. Will you still pay that back?
Speaker 8 (18:42):
Well, if you really say the people, I just want
to be clear with your audience so that we're not
misleading them. Eighty five percent of that really goes into
the investment made into my campaign for polling and TV
ads and literature by the National Republican Congressional Committee. The
investment was made to win a race. I won that race.
(19:04):
There was no fraud there. This is a case we
argued with the prosecution, but they needed to inflate the
numbers in order to make it a more appealing case
for them in federal court instead of just going after
the mishandling of finances, which, by the way, most members
of Congress currently who are still serving in both parties,
(19:25):
whoever have had issues with FEC filings, they pay fines.
Nobody actually goes to prison. So it's inequitable in its nature.
Speaker 7 (19:34):
Well, this is about a fine, and this is about
paying money back. And whether you describe them as victims
or just donors to the NRCC, what the court said
is that they should get their money back. Will you
work to try.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
To do that?
Speaker 8 (19:49):
Well, look, I can do my best to do whatever
the law requires of me, So I don't know what
that is. I've been out of prison for two days.
I agree to come here to speak with you candidly
and openly, and not to offuscate. If it's required of
me by the law. Yes, if it's not, then no,
I will do whatever the law it requires.
Speaker 6 (20:08):
Me to do.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's so interesting he's not really answering the question. He's saying, well,
I'll do it the law requires of me. But as
we understand that the law is saying that he doesn't
have to pay the money back, I would almost respect
him more if he's like, hey, President Trump, SAI didn't
have to pay it back. Why would I pay it back?
You know, it's like, but no, it has to be well,
I wasn't really taking from people. I was taking from
(20:31):
you know, these funds as if that money was what
printed by the Republican National Party, like those were the
donor's money.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, somebody's money that he took. Look, this is another
example of Santos being well versed in political spin.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah. Absolutely, I wonder, I mean, do you have a
sense for where you think? I mean, apparently he's going
to become an outspoken voice for prison reform. Besides that,
do you have a sense for where we might see
him next?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yes, I've also been thinking about that, and I asked
Mark Gasano, the journalist who has looked to Santos and
his life more than anyone else, Really this exact question.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
I guess the question now is what happens next with
a guy like this.
Speaker 6 (21:18):
That's sort of the open question with Santos, and sort
of always has been. People always wonder was he going
to change? Is this kind of the end with him?
Or is he just going to move to another scam?
Who knows? With him? He sort of said different things
at different times that he is repentance that he isn't.
I'll note though, that he did reactivate his cameo account,
(21:42):
so there's that he's at least trying that again. I
definitely don't think we've heard the last of him.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
The cameo account is the one where he gives like
the birthday wishes.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yes, you could pay George Santos. I'm curious, Actually, I'll
look how much? How much the going rate is right now?
But you could pay him to record a birthday message?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Or Yeah, what is what is the going rate?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Book a personal video? One fifty plus? Oh it's a
flash sale.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
One that's half off right now.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
We're catching it on a on.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
A flash sail.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Oh my goodness. Yeah, we're not seeing to lest this guy.
My spidy sense tells me that in the not too
distant future will be back because George Santaus will have
once again found his way back into the headlines. This
(22:41):
episode was produced by Amy Gains McQuaid and Isaac Carter.
It was edited by Karen Chakerjee. Our executive producer is
Jacob Smith, mastering by Jake Gorsky. Original scoring and our
theme were composed by Luis Gara. Special thanks to Morgan Ratner,
Owen Miller, and Greta Cone. I'm Jake Halpern.
Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. Welcome back to deep Cover. I'm
in your feed today with an update about a story
that we covered last summer. You might remember it. My
producer Amy Gains McQuaid and I did a deep dive
into the world of George Santos, a former Republican congressman
(00:37):
from New York who pled guilty to wire fraud and
identity theft. I called up Amy because well, there's been
quite a development in the last week. Hey, Amy, Hey Jake.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So I'll just cut you it the news we're here
to talk about. On Friday, President Trump commuted Georgeantos's sentence,
sending shockwaves through the political world.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
George Santos is the gift that keeps on giving.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I did not think we'd be here so many months
after releasing this series talking about this, but here we are.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, So just talk us through this. How did we
get to this point?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
So, if you remember, Santos pled guilty to two charges,
wire fraud and aggravated identity theft. That was last summer,
August twenty twenty four. I was actually in the courtroom
for that plea hearing, and at the time Santos told
the judge you know, I accept full responsibility for my actions.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
They set his sentencing.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
For April, and at that time he was actually sentenced
to eighty seven months, a little over seven years. He
was always going to face at least two years because
of the identity theft charge that he pled to that
carries a two year minimum. His lawyers had asked the
judge if he could be sentenced to the minimum that
two years, but the judge at sentencing didn't agree with
(02:12):
that and felt that Santos deserved a sentence on the
higher end of the guideline. So actually the guideline said
seventy five to eighty seven, and the judge ultimately.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Handed down the maximum.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
He reported to prison in July, and then three months
later he's released.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Okay, So I know, like I heard this on Sunday
for Saul, I immediately thought of you. I was like,
what is Amy thinking. I mean, to me, it felt
like a bombshell. They came out of nowhere. But I'm
wondering the people that you spoke with who are close
to the story, were they surprised by this.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I've heard from a lot of folks that we
talked to for the original series, and I think across
the board, there was a lot of shock and surprise.
I called up Kathy Soref, who, if you remember, was
one of George Santos's donors.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
The only thing I can say is he was so
is far too long for what he did. In my opinion,
Were you expecting this to happen? No, it was a
complete shock. You know, I cried. I haven't been thinking
about it, but it was like, what, you know, I
(03:26):
guess people think that Trump is vengeful. I don't think
he is vengeful. I think he wants to hold people accountable,
and I think he is actually you know, has a
very soft and compassionate side to him. And I think
he thought that George. I don't. I could be completely
wrong about this. I'm trying interprojecting what President Trump was thinking.
(03:50):
But why are we going to finance? I mean, how
much does it cost to keep a prisoner in prison
for a year? And do we want to spend that
on George.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
It's interesting to hear like Kathy's basically like a prison
reform advocate. Did you have any sense that that was
like part of her deal?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Kathy sa I wouldn't characterized as a prison reform advocate.
In particular, Kathy was very careful with me to draw
a distinction between violent and nonviolent offenders. I think that
she has a much harder line stance when it comes
to violent offenders, and in this case, she doesn't think
that George Santos is a real risk to the community
(04:28):
non violent criminals.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
You know, humiliation is a pretty potent punishment.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
So do you think that three months was an adequate
sentence for what he pled to?
Speaker 4 (04:43):
I think that the time of it is not as
significant as the experience that he probably had. I mean,
you know, that's one reason why people don't want to
be in jail. They get there and it's harsh.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I have a lot of questions about Kathy, but I
wonder if it's actually helpful to just take a step
back here. President Trump, what is he said about why
he commuted Santos's sentence.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So when the news broke it was onwhere Else Truth
Social Friday night, President Trump had posted quote, George Santos
was somewhat of a rogue. That's in quotes, But there
are many rogues throughout our country that aren't forced to
serve seven years in prison. So you can see they're
the president kind of indicating he didn't necessarily agree with
(05:30):
the sentence that had been handed down. He had also
said at least Santos had the courage, conviction and intelligence
to always vote Republican.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
What does that mean? Like, why is he calling out
that Santos always voted Republican. I feel like with President Trump,
there's often like a subtext. Do you have a sense
of what the subtext is there?
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I think the subtext in this case is pretty It's
a neon sign, It's George Santos has been a vocal,
consistent supporter of President Trump.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
Early on, I had been waiting for this to happen.
I think a lot of people had been. Santos himself
had been kind of begging Trump for connotation apart in
just kind of any relief at all, and he'd been
a big support of Trump for a long time. So
this wasn't surprising.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
When I heard the news, I gave a call to
Mark Gasanov. He's the author of The Fabulous, who we
spoke to for the original series. His book is a
deeply reported biography of Santos.
Speaker 6 (06:27):
Trump had been pardoning or commuting a lot of people's sentences,
so this wouldn't have been the craziest thing in the world.
So I and a lot of people had been waiting
for it to happen. But the months dragged on and
nothing did. So kind of assumes that maybe Santos was
going to stay in prison for at least a long time,
a longer time than he spent. But you know, as
(06:49):
with everything with Santos, it's your surprise, but nothing, nothing
can shock you.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I want to impact that a bit. You had almost
been expecting this.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
It sounds like, why is that. Well, Santos had been
a big Trump supporter and booster for years, I mean
at least since twenty fifteen, and it was one of
the fews things that he was totally just kind of
unchangeable about. Right. He would go to rallies, he would
(07:17):
boost him on social media. He actually spoke on January fifth,
twenty twenty one, right before the January sixth Capitol riot.
He continued sort of boosting Trump even after, you know,
his fall from grace. He showed up at Trump's New
Hampshire victory party, and then once he actually went to prison,
(07:39):
he kept writing basically kind of op eds for a
small newspaper on long Island, and in those op eds
he was sort of bagging Trump for something, to let
him out, help him out in some ways. So he
kind of kept it up, and he'd been a sort
of loyal Trump soldier in a way that you know,
others haven't been, So you know, it was not so surprising,
(08:02):
I guess to see Trump react to that, to that
sort of constant flattery and approval.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
That Mark is like, I'm only surprised it didn't happen sooner,
and Kathy's like, I'm surprised it happened at all.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, well, I think that Marx beide is politics. And
if you're paying attention, you've noticed that this is not
the first act of clemency that has happened under the
new Trump administration.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I'm saying new, but it's been less than a year.
Speaker 6 (08:28):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
In that time, President Trump has pardoned more than sixteen
hundred people, which is pretty remarkable, unprecedented for this early
in the presidential term. You know, fifteen hundred of those
were people who were involved in the events of January sixth.
So he's also commuted many sentences, and we should talk
about that a little bit, because a pardon is different
(08:50):
than a commutation.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, so this was a commutation, right.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
This was a commutation, not a pardon.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
So what is that like in plainspeak, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Pardon is a full It basically wipes your slate clean.
The crime is forgiven. A commutation just means we're wrapping
up your time spent in incarceration. So George Santos was
released from prison late Friday night after this commutation was announced.
It doesn't change the fact that he was still charged
with these crimes. He still pled guilty to these crimes,
(09:23):
and he still served time for these crimes, and that
will follow him for the rest of his life. This
is something that actually Kathy Sorif stressed to me when
I talked to her.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
He wasn't pardoned.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
His sentence was commuted. So he will have to live
with the dishonor that he caused himself. That will not
go away, and hopefully he will find some way to
redeem himself by good work.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Any sense for why President Trump would have opted to
commute his sentence rather than just give him a pardon.
Maybe that would have Maybe that would have upset the
party in some way that they could It almost feels
like it could be a compromise.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Well, and this was really the question that I had
for Kathy what we're talking about here, because Kathy sores
she is a Republican and she is a big backer
of President Trump.
Speaker 5 (10:17):
I know you to be a you know, a vocal
supporter of President Trump, but also someone who has no
love lost.
Speaker 6 (10:25):
For George Santos.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
So I'm just curious how you square those two things
in a moment like this.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Well, I don't really know. I don't know what Trump
was thinking. I don't I don't know other than just
saying that he thought the long prison sentence was unfair
and why are we He's not a danger to society.
His humiliation will carry with him for a long time,
and that is quite a punishment. I didn't understand what
(10:56):
benefit it would be. Certainly it's not a political benefit
for Trump to pardon George Santos. George Santos isn't going
to do a good darn thing for Trump, and by
doing it, actually I thought it might have been harmful.
So I didn't understand the source other than Trump thinking
it just not fair that he had been sentenced really
(11:19):
too harshly.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I'm a little skeptical about I mean, like, I mean,
the question is a fair one, like why would he
do this? I'm somewhat dubious this is just done out
of a sense of justice. I think that that doesn't
ring true to me. I could think of a few
reasons why this would be good for him to do.
I mean, it reinforces the idea that if you're loyal
to me, I will look out for you down the road.
(11:43):
It's another day where he's in charge of the news cycle.
It also casts further doubt on a justice system that
he's run into before. But I always think that, like
Donald Trump is a really smart strategist about the way
he does things. I don't think he does things just
He may do things on a whim, but it's following
an instinct. And I'm just I'm just wondering what you
(12:05):
think his strategy was here or why he did this.
Is it just like a Is this just thank you
for being loyal and if you're loyal to me, no
matter what you've done, you get redeemed Or do you
think there's more to it than that.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I think that there's an argument to be made that
Santos's loyalty is a huge factor in why we're talking
right now and why Santos has been released. I think
the other factor that we have to discuss is that
he was held in solitary confinement, and from what we know,
it seems like that's something that caught the president's attention.
You heard Mark reference earlier. George Santos has been writing
(12:42):
this sort of regular column for a newspaper on Long
Island called The Soushore Press.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
His most recent column came out just about a week ago,
and he seems to be speaking to the president almost directly.
He says, quote, I renew my plea to President Trump.
Intervene helped me escape this daily torment and let me
return to my family. So this really like heartfelt plea
for release.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
He he talks about his experience in solitary confinement.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Remind us why is he in solitary confinement?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
George Santos found himself in solitary confinement. From the reporting
that's out there, it seems he was not placed in
solitary for any disciplinary reasons. He was placed in solitary
because of an actual threat to his life. Then, so
sometimes they might segregate an inmate for their own safety,
but what George Santos maintains is that the conditions that
he was held in were far from humane. He asked
(13:38):
for his inhaler, and it took him hours, if not days,
to receive it. He had panic attacks. So, I mean,
solitary confinement is a real thing that this country has
to grapple with. There are over forty thousand estimated inmates
being held in solitary at any given time in this country.
It is considered a form of torture according to you
(13:59):
and guidelines, and you know, the psychological effects. You know,
the actual conditions you're held in are one thing, but
kind of what you carry with you after you leave
is an entirely different conversation. This was clearly on the
president's radar, right, So in that initial truth Social post,
he called it out explicitly saying, quote, George has been
(14:20):
in solitary confinement for long stretches of time and by
all accounts, has been horribly mistreated. Therefore, I just signed
a commutation releasing him from prison.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Good luck, George, have a great life.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I mean it's interesting because you know, if you imagine
a world where George Santos was only sentenced to three
months and he served his time and get out today,
versus a storyline where George Santos had been sentenced to
seven years was being held in solitary confinement and Donald
(14:57):
Trump gives him this commutation and tells him good luck.
I mean, it feels like for a man who likes
dramatic storylines, it feels like a much more dramatic storyline. Plus,
you've been kind of what you call it communtation, call
it pardon. You've been blessed by President Trump, which is
very meaningful in many circles in this country.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Absolutely, I will say it's interesting. The story of George
Santos remains really fascinating to me in its many evolutions,
because I think, you know, it's easy to dismiss him.
You know, he's a con artist, and why are we
even still talking about this guy? But I think throughout
this saga, you know, George Santos has been a really
(15:39):
interesting window into the realities of the systems of the
criminal legal system. There are millions of people who interact
with our court system and our prison system every day,
but they are not famous, they do not have names
that you recognize. But here we are talking about solitary confinement,
(16:00):
talking about mandatory minimums, talking about what it means to
have a felony on your record because it's in the
news because of George Santos.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
We'll be right back. Have we heard from George since
he's been released?
Speaker 7 (16:30):
So?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
George Santos posted on Saturday, the day after he was released, saying, quote,
yesterday I was given something I never thought i'd have again,
a true second chance at life, a chance to grow,
to change, and to walk a better path. He goes
on to say, my goal now is to turn my
(16:52):
past into something meaningful, to help create a justice system
that truly believes in rehabilitation and second chances. Yes, I
am back, but I am back as a new man,
ready to work and do good.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I mean, what's what's so interesting about this to me
is Sando's as many things, dumb is clearly not one
of them. Whether he's sincere or there's a hustle here
remains to be seen. But I think that what he
does is he's picking up He's using something that's real,
(17:30):
which is his own experience. He's using something that's real,
which is solitary confinement. It's like an organic storyline. It's
just the given who this guy is. It's damn hard
to take anything he says at face value. Let me
ask you this because this is what I'm also wondering about,
is restitution, right, So what about that? Like, is he
(17:50):
still on the hook for that?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
So over the weekend, one of the US Parton attorneys
who handled the commutation actually tweeted out what appears to
be the actual document that Trump signed, and it's in
black and white, pretty clear language that this is an
immediate commutation of his entire sentence time served with no
(18:15):
further fines, restitution, probation, supervis release, etc.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Etca.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So it seems on paper he is not on the
hook for this. Santos appeared on CNN over the weekend,
interviewed by Dana Bash and she actually asked him this
exact question.
Speaker 7 (18:33):
You were ordered to by the court to pay three
hundred and seventy thousand dollars in restitution to the people
you defrauded. Will you still pay that back?
Speaker 8 (18:42):
Well, if you really say the people, I just want
to be clear with your audience so that we're not
misleading them. Eighty five percent of that really goes into
the investment made into my campaign for polling and TV
ads and literature by the National Republican Congressional Committee. The
investment was made to win a race. I won that race.
(19:04):
There was no fraud there. This is a case we
argued with the prosecution, but they needed to inflate the
numbers in order to make it a more appealing case
for them in federal court instead of just going after
the mishandling of finances, which, by the way, most members
of Congress currently who are still serving in both parties,
(19:25):
whoever have had issues with FEC filings, they pay fines.
Nobody actually goes to prison. So it's inequitable in its nature.
Speaker 7 (19:34):
Well, this is about a fine, and this is about
paying money back. And whether you describe them as victims
or just donors to the NRCC, what the court said
is that they should get their money back. Will you
work to try.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
To do that?
Speaker 8 (19:49):
Well, look, I can do my best to do whatever
the law requires of me, So I don't know what
that is. I've been out of prison for two days.
I agree to come here to speak with you candidly
and openly, and not to offuscate. If it's required of
me by the law. Yes, if it's not, then no,
I will do whatever the law it requires.
Speaker 6 (20:08):
Me to do.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's so interesting he's not really answering the question. He's saying, well,
I'll do it the law requires of me. But as
we understand that the law is saying that he doesn't
have to pay the money back, I would almost respect
him more if he's like, hey, President Trump, SAI didn't
have to pay it back. Why would I pay it back?
You know, it's like, but no, it has to be well,
I wasn't really taking from people. I was taking from
(20:31):
you know, these funds as if that money was what
printed by the Republican National Party, like those were the
donor's money.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, somebody's money that he took. Look, this is another
example of Santos being well versed in political spin.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah. Absolutely, I wonder, I mean, do you have a
sense for where you think? I mean, apparently he's going
to become an outspoken voice for prison reform. Besides that,
do you have a sense for where we might see
him next?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yes, I've also been thinking about that, and I asked
Mark Gasano, the journalist who has looked to Santos and
his life more than anyone else, Really this exact question.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
I guess the question now is what happens next with
a guy like this.
Speaker 6 (21:18):
That's sort of the open question with Santos, and sort
of always has been. People always wonder was he going
to change? Is this kind of the end with him?
Or is he just going to move to another scam?
Who knows? With him? He sort of said different things
at different times that he is repentance that he isn't.
I'll note though, that he did reactivate his cameo account,
(21:42):
so there's that he's at least trying that again. I
definitely don't think we've heard the last of him.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
The cameo account is the one where he gives like
the birthday wishes.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yes, you could pay George Santos. I'm curious, Actually, I'll
look how much? How much the going rate is right now?
But you could pay him to record a birthday message?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Or Yeah, what is what is the going rate?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Book a personal video? One fifty plus? Oh it's a
flash sale.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
One that's half off right now.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
We're catching it on a on.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
A flash sail.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Oh my goodness. Yeah, we're not seeing to lest this guy.
My spidy sense tells me that in the not too
distant future will be back because George Santaus will have
once again found his way back into the headlines. This
(22:41):
episode was produced by Amy Gains McQuaid and Isaac Carter.
It was edited by Karen Chakerjee. Our executive producer is
Jacob Smith, mastering by Jake Gorsky. Original scoring and our
theme were composed by Luis Gara. Special thanks to Morgan Ratner,
Owen Miller, and Greta Cone. I'm Jake Halpern.
Host
Jake Halpern
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