December 1, 2025 • 45 mins
Ollie and Simon follow the trail of broken dreams and failed restaurants to Paso Robles, California. Ollie discovers his former sister-in-law has manufactured an image of a successful restauranteur in Hawaii, Lake Tahoe and New Zealand. Her exotic CV and exciting stories pull a new family into her web... with disastrous consequences.
Finally, they get a tip-off that might lead them directly to Lezlie. Her lies may be about to catch up to
her.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. This episode contains occasional course language, and we've used
some voice actors to bring emails to life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I've been trying to understand how my brother's ex wife,
Leslie Minuchian thinks. My journey so far has been like
tunneling through the matrix. I've been gradually digging deeper into
the world Leslie lives in. Actually, it's kind of like
two worlds. It seems like Leslie has a fantasy world
(00:50):
where she invents characters and a Hollywood movie about her life,
but she also lives in the real world where people
like my brother Greg are drawn into her spirals.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Oh, I was absolutely like a serving dark mate.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Greg called me the other day, and I guess he's
been thinking about that too.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Like who's the most prime target for an American female
con artist with flat hair? It's great, warts you couldn't
have lined it up better. Honestly, I would suggest I
was the most obvious target. I was looking for the
North American accent. It was done in the day one man.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So do you think that she actually knew that as well?
And I guess it just made things easier for her now.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
She didn't know that because she didn't know who I was,
but it was the collision of multi fraudster versus the
other side being someone wanting to believe in the American treatment.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
So far, I found out about the trouble Leslie got
into before she came to New Zealand. But now I
want to know about what happened after Leslie left Greg
the Dragonfly and New Zealand behind. And the only way
to find out more is to get closer to Leslie. Literally.
I'm on her home turf in California with my other brother, Simon.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
It's hot and sunny, like California should be.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
We're doing our best detective impressions in Hawaiian shirts and
a muscle car. We're definitely more flood of the Concords
than true detective. All right, we have a car running
a gentle rumble in her background. It's a per per,
but we've got good leads and we're determined to find
(02:42):
out more. We are today heading to a northern Californian
town called Passer Robles. I'm following this trail to find
answers for my family and to find Leslie. Let's at
the road, sweet, I'm Molly Watts, and this is Snowball.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
We do not even call her by her name anymore,
so we call her.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
The Black Widow.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
She has a laugh that could you know you hear
it across the room.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
How did she get over on you? How did this happen?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
She was just kind of reckless with everything. I don't
think she ever thought she would actually get caught.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
And he basically said, when I got home, there was.
Speaker 6 (03:30):
A bong load, a martini and a blow job, and
I just didn't think about it.
Speaker 7 (03:35):
I don't think she'll talk to you. I think she'll
see you and she'll run out the back door.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
I've had sony dreams of like talking to her. I
just want to ask her, like, oh God, like why
did you do this?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Where we're hitting is about three and a half hours
northwest of la Driving into wine country, there's vineyards and
boosed up baby boomers everywhere. It was only four years
after Leslie left my brother Greg and the failing Dragonfly
and in Zed when she popped up hair and passerobles
(04:15):
running another restaurant. This one was called Phenomenal. That's phenomenal
with an F. A review of Leslie's new restaurant appeared
on trevel Passo dot com.
Speaker 8 (04:29):
The whole phenomenal concept was extremely well thought out and
executed by owner Leslie Manukian. Her prior experience of owning
and operating a burger Barron Lake Tahoe, a California cuisine,
fish and steak restaurant in Maui, and an artsy breakfast
cafe in New Zealand taught her what is required to
launch a successful business in the food and wine space.
(04:50):
That and eating in forty seven countries in seven years.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's only a bit cheeky Leslie telling people about her
successful bars and Tahoe, Hawaii and now an artsy breakfast
cafe and in zed Lucky. The journalist who wrote that
didn't check references. So here's another grand opening, another hospitality business,
and maybe this time things turned out differently. Nah. Before
(05:22):
we came to passer Robeles, I tracked down the people
involved with this restaurant and it sounds messy. Here we are,
Simon driving through passer Roobuls. The streets are really wide,
The houses look like they're made of lego in that
they have a tiny little stoop, and that they're all
(05:44):
perfectly trimmed and painted. Hello, we're all right to park
this monstrosity of a car. Here are we? This is
the real owner of that restaurant phenomenal. He's happy to talk,
but I've changed his name to Cameron in person. He
(06:06):
doesn't want to have any more personal or professional impact
from what happened to him. Thank you for having us.
He's a business guy, engineering background, big build. He's got
a gray goaty. Cameron invited Simon and I round to
his really nice house. It's on a hill with a
view of trees and other big villas in the neighborhood.
To get up to his front door, we climbed a
(06:27):
rock staircase through a terraced garden. It's a blue sky day.
Is it always like this? Yes? Pretty much, so we're
sitting out on the balcony. Cameron says that when he
first met Leslie, he had just been through a divorce.
One night, he was having dinner with his mum and
Leslie was their waiter.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
She seemed to indicate that she was worldly, adventurous and
wanted to have the zastralafe and just enjoy life.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
So they start dating. They were only together a few
months when things jumped to the next level, and.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Next thing I know, she was just there a lot more,
and she's like, well, hey, I shouldn't be paying rent
when I'm here a lot anyway, so I'll just move in.
And it just kind of happened. It wasn't like a discussion,
It just kind of kind of unfolded.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Cameron was okay with that though. He thought it'd be
fun to have Leslie around, and it sounds like he
was right. Cameron's friends remember Leslie joining me cr We.
Speaker 9 (07:21):
Instantly became friends. I mean, she was easy to talk to,
she was interesting and interested in everyone. I mean it
was just so so easy to get along, and she
always had fun things. You know, she always came up
with fun things to do, and you definitely had the
sense that she like came from money.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
But another of Cameron's friends I spoke to Rickens, Leslie
wasn't his usual type.
Speaker 6 (07:48):
She seems very nice. I did think that she was
an odd match.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Didn't seem his uh, you know, his typical cup of kea.
Speaker 6 (07:56):
For a relationship way, but very outgoing.
Speaker 9 (08:00):
I just different differences.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
Even in her appearance. She's loud, she has you know,
large hair, long nails, paint.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
So I think that it was a kind of an
out of character relationship for him.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Cameron's mate asked him what he saw in Lesley?
Speaker 5 (08:16):
How did she get over on you? How did this happen?
Speaker 6 (08:21):
And he basically said, when I got home, there was
a bong load, a martini and a blowjob, and I
just didn't think about it. I just said yes and
I signed.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Lisley was also adventurous with all her worldly experience. She
encouraged Cameron's desire to travel and they started planning a
trip down Undone.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
I've never been to Australia, so I thought that would
be great, Let's go to Australia. I was in the
process of actually getting scuba dive certified, and so the
goal was to go down there, do some wine tasting
in Brosa, go see Melbourne, make sure I see all
the sites, and just make a trip out of it.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
So flights were booked, hotels are booked.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
But Lisley's checkered past was about to interfere with their
plans because back in New Zealand, my dad was still
trying to figure out what had happened and where Leslie
had gone. Dad was reading about book deals, movie stars
and boats, and Leslie's emails like you heard last episode.
He thought it all might be real, and he was
(09:30):
wondering how Leslie could get away from New Zealand and
her guarantee of the Dragonfly Bank loan without paying a cent.
So Dad arranged for a private investigator to find Leslie
to see if all the glitz and glamour was legit
and to see if she would forfeit her boat to
help pay off the loan. And this American PI he
(09:50):
found her at Cameron's house. We know what happened next
from Leslie's perspective because she emailed a friend about it.
Speaker 10 (09:59):
A private investigator showed up at my door. Dave Wartz
hired him to find me. I kindly invited him in
and we had a long talk about all the accusations
that they have made against me.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
The PI found Leslie so convincing that from the report
he sent back and her emails, it seems like she
managed to flip him to her side. Leslie even refers
to him as my PI at the end of her
email to her mate. Even though the PI was working
for my Dad, he ended up giving her information, including
(10:34):
one crucial piece of intel.
Speaker 10 (10:36):
The PI told me, I have a warrant for my arrest.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
In n said it wasn't a warrant for arrest, but
the cops told me that they would be alerted if
Leslie set foot in New Zealand. And those flights that
Leslie and Cameron had to Australia only a week later,
they were connecting through New Zealand. If they went on
their holiday, Leslie might have had to have a little
(11:00):
chat with the Kiwi cops. So she panicked. Leslie had
to come up with an excuse as to why they
couldn't get on that plane.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Next thing I know, she says, there was She came
up with a couple different stories and so but the
final story that we landed on was that there were
so many major storms happening in Australia at the time.
Speaker 5 (11:23):
There's that the Great Barrier Reef was going to be cloudy.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
We weren't going to be able to scuba dive there
because you wouldn't see anything. So the whole purpose of
you know, one of the purposes to go there is
to enjoy the scuba diving and snorkeling and stuff. So
it was based on weather.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
At the time.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
They were meant to be meeting some friends in Australia
and they caught a different excuse from Leslie in an email.
Speaker 10 (11:44):
I have the worst news ever. Cameron and I are
not going to make it to Australia. As you know,
Cameron uses air miles for travel to Australia. Well, we
were printing down all of our arrangements and Cameron noticed
that our names were spelled wrong on our ticketing information.
(12:06):
I'm so upset. I do not even know where to begin.
I have been on the phone all night canceling and
changing bookings.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So their tickets were void because Cameron got their names
wrong on the booking. It's a testament to how doggedly
Leslie can tell us story that everyone just let it slide.
Leslie was spinning an even more important story for Cameron.
It was Leslie's greatest hit story of being a successful
restaurant heur, and predictably, it wasn't long before Leslie started
(12:38):
suggesting that Cameron should invest a ton of money in
a new restaurant, and like a lot of people before him,
Cameron was keen.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
So I thought, between the tourists, you know, if she's
already done it four or five times, this would be
an easy situation. I can invest in this, I can
do this and make a nice successful business in the
local area here.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Eventually Cameron agreed and they launched Phenomenal. The restaurant started strongly.
The headline of that review you heard before was the
phenomenal story of a great new Pessa Robels Restaurant Love,
a pun title, Cameron says. Lesley wasn't actually employed at
the restaurant, but as his girlfriend. She was helping out
(13:19):
with a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
She went and basically told everybody that was her restaurant,
and most people found out much later that she didn't
even put a penny in there, not a dime, not
a dollar. She did spend time in there, but you know,
she was just kind of reckless with everything, including when
we were purchasing equipment. You know, we were buying equipment,
and all of a sudden, next day, know, she was
returning something and then going and getting some other piece
(13:42):
of equipment, the same piece of equipment with a lease,
and so the money flow would just be crazy in
the fact that wait, I just bought a new ten
burner stove and now all of a sudden, I'm leasing one.
Where'd that money go? And so it was it was
things like that where it just didn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
As Cameron talks about how Leslie was involved at his restaurant,
I've got deja vo, Cameron says, strange stuff was going
on with the accounting. Phenomenal was a tap us joint,
but it sounds like it was the book that were
getting cooked, or at least a bit scrambled.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
One time, Pugenie called me and said, by the way,
we're shutting your electric off, and I'm like, what are
you talking about. I repaid him and they're like, no,
you're like six grand in the hall and I'm like, no,
I have these receipts. I sent him the receives and
they said these are fraudulent. She took the logo from
their website, put it onto a blank piece of paper,
wrote it out, this is your receipt for this dollar
amount for this account and had that in the books
(14:35):
as if she had paid it.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It wasn't just the electricity bill that wasn't getting paid.
Quite early on, someone stuck a flyer on the windows
of the restaurant saying, shame on you, Phenomenal restaurant. You
are doing business at the expense of local subcontractors. Pay
your bills. When I asked Cameron if I can see
some of this stuff, he takes me inside. Cameron goes
(14:59):
to the filing cabinet and comes back arms full. He
dumps his papers on the polished wood dining room table.
You've got a couple of red folder's hair. One of
them's caught black widow written on it.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
So most of my friends we do not even call
her by her name anymore. She's not worthy of being named,
so we call her the black widow.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Of course, the black Widow is famously eight sis romantic
partner off to a little while. Right exactly, Cameron spreads
out a bunch of papers on the table in front
of us and starts to take me through what happened.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
So what I have in front of me here are
a bunch of bank documents. And you know, the thing
is that, you know, when you're running a business, you
don't typically run it through a lot of cash based things.
You want to make sure there's a paper trail. But
for whatever reason, she chose to go and withdraw cash.
So I can't prove that she's taking this cash and
put it in her pocket or her bank accounts. But
all I can do is say, well, here, okay, this
(16:06):
month alone, there was six thousand dollars withdrawal by cash,
five thousand dollars, five thousand dollars. There's another five thousand.
There's another three thousand that's in thirty days withdrawal of cash.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Cameron could keep going next month and he does another.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Five thousand dollars, two thousand dollars, three thousand.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
While all this was happening, Leslie wasn't being paid like
she was on the phenomenal staff. Cameron says the deal
was until the business started making money. He was covering
everything like food, rent and overseas holidays. But maybe Leslie
thought she was entitled to some money in the meantime.
It's just the next thing he shows me looks like
(16:44):
a murky way for Leslie to sort herself out with cash.
He pulls out some scans of checks. He reckons Leslie
forged his signature on.
Speaker 5 (16:53):
Oh look at that.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
It happens to be to her father, Andrew Manukian for
six hundred and fifty dollars minimum credit card payment. Is
what it's showing here, not my signature.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Then there's a real big boy. Cameron says he made
the mistake of leaving a blank check around for emergencies.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
You know, this is something that is the most disturbing.
Thirty thousand dollars thirty eight hundred and fifty dollars made
out to cash. I have no idea where the money went.
I mean, I'm an idiot for allowing that to happen.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I mean that's actually probably physically quite a lot of piper.
Like I would imagine going up to the bank teller
and handing that chick across, and I would sort of
have to go into the vault and you know, get
a bag and manage your approval and all that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
So it goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I mean, did you think about going to the police
when you found this?
Speaker 5 (17:48):
Yes, it's too painful to go through.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
That part of it was the survivability piece, is that,
you know, I still had to move on in my life.
I didn't lose my house, but I was close. I
did lose my car. I had to let that go,
you know, And so there's been so many things along
that way that I'm like, you know what, I just
need to figure out a way to survive. And not
only that, it's a small town, so you know, it
was better for me to just suck it up, understand
(18:13):
that I made a mistake with who I partnered with,
and chuck it up as a life experience and move on.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
So it all happens again, allegations of fake documents, forge checks,
mysterious lumps of cash going missing. Then Leslie gets to
walk away. Only this time it was Cameron's conscious choice
not to pursue her, even if he wanted to change
his mind. Now it's probably too late. There's a statute
of limitations on fraud in California of three years. We
(18:48):
sit around the dining room table talking for ages and
Simon starts to wonder, if Cameron didn't talk to the cops,
then why us.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Obviously you decided not to kind of approach anyone else
about it. What made you talk to Olian leads us
to be sitting here together?
Speaker 4 (19:02):
So I guess, first and foremost, I think the fact
that I had it bad, but your brother Greg had
it way worse.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
In your parents.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
So for me at that point in time, it was
kind of like, well, you know, what if there's a
way that I can somehow help and whether it's helped
this be successful or help her to be stopped or
to somehow help someone else have closure.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
That was pretty important to me.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
But it turns out it wasn't that easy inviting us
to come over. Cameron's partner has been sitting with us
this whole time, nodding a head to what she already knows,
and at times looking pretty shocked as she finds out more.
Speaker 11 (19:39):
When Cameron told me about it, initially, I could just
see this black cloud above his head and he was
just for a few days there, he didn't know if
he wanted to do it or not. And I was
excited about the possibility of this happening because I knew
just from the outside looking at Cameron, that he needed
(20:01):
to process it because I, in my opinion, he kind
of put a lot of things, just checked it under
the rug and just wanted to pretend it didn't ever happen.
And I knew that.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
I just kept putting it in a file cabinet. It's like,
you know what, let's just let's just look at this
ten years from now. Let's laugh about this in ten years.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (20:19):
I mean, he did have an inkling that maybe someday,
you know, he would be happy that he didn't throw
away some of these papers, but I knew he needed
to process all that that had happened to him. And
once that happens with any trauma, once you are able
to actually finally process it all, you can really then
(20:40):
go on with your life.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
That's when Simon and I start to realize this stuff
is still present for them. They've got this nice house
on a hill and they're doing well, but the betrayal
of your trust, that kind of thing takes longer to
get past.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Did this kind of change the way you'd look at
kind of going into business or even going into relationships
after that?
Speaker 5 (20:59):
Like?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Do you did it negatively affect you like that?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Or?
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Unfortunately?
Speaker 4 (21:03):
The bad part of that is, you know, it's it's
like trust your employees, trust your people, but verify. And
I definitely don't have as much trust for the people
in my lives, and so therefore I definitely have to
verify them a lot more. I mean, I think I
appreciate the things that you have around you a lot
more than I did before, because you know, I was fat, dumb,
(21:26):
and happier or whatever, and just you know, I was
I was doing well, and I was I was making
my bills, and you know, after that it's kind.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
Of like, well, wait, what makes you happy?
Speaker 4 (21:35):
And I truly was not happy during that period of
my life because there was the probably the highest stress
level I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
So this whole experience did have a lasting effect. These
that phrase it's bitter to have loved and lost than
they've loved at all. With this relationship, Cameron definitely lost.
But was the love you were with Leslie for a
couple of years. Did your relationship get to that point
where you think she loved you?
Speaker 5 (22:01):
No, not at all.
Speaker 12 (22:02):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
I don't think she was ever in love with me.
I think that she was in love with the opportunities
and the lifestyle.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
No.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
I never really felt any love from her. You know,
there was at times some respect that was about the
only thing, like hey, you're successful in your career. But
for the most part, no, it was more like, you know,
two people just going out and having fun. At times
when we go places, it was more about like let's
go have fun. It wasn't about any kind of a
romantic situation.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
There's one other perspective I wanted to get from this
time in Cameron's life. Cameron's daughter was living with them,
when Lesley moved in, she was around ten at the time.
Now she's eighteen and off at college. I wanted to
hear how all this went for her. Cameron suggested I
give her a call.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
Like when I met her, I you know, thought she
was fun. She's really like kind of tough and like
unlike other women that I had met or are, they're
like female like I don't know figures in my life.
So I thought she was like kind of cool at first.
She would always like wrestle with me and like rough
house and like you know, talk about like being tough
(23:10):
and all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Kimeron's daughter sees that Lesley was sort of a play
night rather than a parent figure.
Speaker 6 (23:15):
Like I remember one time, like when we were playing basketball,
like I threw the basketball at her and it hit
her in the boobs, and she just like got so
mad at me, Like she started yelling, you did that
on purpose, you fucking manipulate a bitch, Like what the
fuck are you doing? And like she just would just
go off suddenly, and I just like would be totally
freaked out and like.
Speaker 8 (23:35):
Not know what I did.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
Uh, And and my dad would always like say, like, oh,
she's just she's never been around kids. She just doesn't
really like know that you're not supposed to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
As time went on, it sounds like their interactions became
more hurtful.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
She's like, oh my god, honey, you must get made
fun of so much in school for your mustache and
for your and for your your your body hair, like
I remember I did, like and she was like being
like relates, like trying to be relatable like I remember
I did, and like, you know, I didn't have like
a mother who would like help me with that kind
(24:10):
of stuff like your mother, you know, like your mother
or your mother obviously like isn't talking to you about this.
But I can like help you and teach you how
to shave your legs, and I can give you this
cream that you can just put on your lip and
it'll get rid of the hair. And at the time,
like I was like ten, so I didn't even have
any like not like I didn't even notice it. I
(24:33):
had never been made fun of it, and I like
was just like I don't know, kind of like suddenly
like self conscious about this thing.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Cameron's daughter has thought a lot about it since.
Speaker 6 (24:47):
Okay, this is really hard to say, I've actually like
in the aftermath of her like leaving and whatever. Like
I've had so many dreams of like like talking to her,
just because like I felt like there was never any
closure there, but like, oh God, like why did you
(25:07):
do this? I like a part of me believes that
she's just like a really broken person that just have
a lot of issues and just can't help but to
recavoc wherever she goes.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
I always wonder, I mean, all of the time and
effort that she put into creating scams and creating all
these things, if she just took the brains of that
and did something right with her life, she could probably
be successful.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
It's unreal because our dad had just sold his business
just before they bought the Dragonfly, and he invested sort
of two hundred grand cash and then guaranteed the loan
for them. She didn't invest a single cent and the
whole thing. Yet she had this opportunity we were talking
about it today, where like it was a beautiful place
(26:03):
and it was in a nice part of New Zealand,
and it had a great start and everyone she could
have if she ran it, well, it could have been
a great life. So again, I don't understand why Leslie
(26:26):
seems to mess up these great opportunities in her life.
By now, I sort of expected to find a bigger purpose,
a master plan, some kind of reason for all this.
Like you'd think there would be a bigger payoff for Leslie.
Even if these tens of thousands of dollars are going
(26:47):
into her own pockets, is it worth her? In the end?
Leslie doesn't seem to end up with much. She's not
a master criminal. Some of these fake documents look like
she's made them with real life scissors and glue. Her
deceptions always seem to catch up with her. And then
(27:10):
Leslie's whole world gets turned upside down yet again, and
she has to move to a new place. So why
does she do it?
Speaker 5 (27:23):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Cameron does mention one thing I've heard before, something that
might explain some of what she does.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
I know her parents helped her and support her. There
was definitely one credit card that I remember that she
had said something about, like she ran up a credit
card and her parents paid it off for her, and
so therefore she had to give them money at various
times to help pay off the credit card that she
ran up, and it was a big number but I
just remember she would sometimes have to make payments to
(27:52):
her parents.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
This kind of thing was going on when Leslie was
in New Zealand. Two. There's an email her mum Betty
sent warning Leslie about using their credit card.
Speaker 13 (28:03):
The last time you had it was for two days
and you ran up two thousand dollars on it, of
which although I was promised to pay back, it never
came as usual.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
So maybe Leslie is constantly in debt, and maybe the
one debt that she can never really run away from
is the one she owes to her parents. Cameron spent
a fair bit of time with Leslie's parents. They even
moved up to paser Robles for a while when things
were going well. By the time Cameron was trying to
(28:37):
figure out the phenomenal financials, kind of surprisingly, Leslie's mum,
Betty came to help with the books. One night, Betty
was in the restaurant office when Cameron was realizing how
bad things were, and Betty said something that stuck with him.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
At some point in time, we were discussing something and
I said, well, this is unacceptable. We can't be running
a business in this way. And then Betty was like
what's going on? Because I don't raise my voice very often,
and I was like, this is just insane, how can
this be happening? And then she's like, oh, oh, she's
done it again, And it was just this revelation, like
(29:18):
all of a sudden, she just knew what had happened
and where we are. And Betty picked up her purse
and left, never to be seen again.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Cameron had seen enough. He kicked Leslie out, and he
warned the bank what he suspected was going on.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
And she went in the day that I shut it
off and was trying to withdraw a large sum of
money and they said, nope, you're off the account. She
apparently started crying and saying that's not fair. That's my business,
this is my company, this is all these things right there.
So the president of that bank told me all this
soul story.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
So Lislie was gone from another restaurant, another mess. This
time Lislie didn't go far. Cameron has a clue for
us about where Leslie might be now. He's actually been
kind of getting running updates about where Leslie is from
a pretty strange source. For some reason, when they were together,
(30:12):
his email address got added to her loyalty account with
a big American pharmacy chain.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
And so somehow I get these emails that says, every
time she makes a purchase, I get a.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
Receipt for what she purchased. And at first it was
kind of comical.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
I'm like, oh, great, so she's buying gummy worms, some
Nike wool, some crazy mescara or whatever. Oh wow, okay,
so she must have a call this weekend and oh hey,
you know, now she's got the munchies because she's buying
all these snack things. And it was it was quite
comical to know that she was still in the area
and at the same time going she hasn't changed a thing.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Cameron tells Simon and I the receipts have been coming
from a place called San Louis Obispo.
Speaker 5 (30:56):
Saint Louis OBISBA.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
How far is that from here, Cameron, it's about thirty
minutes from here.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
That's us. So Simon and I jumped back in the car.
Next stop on road trip to Snowball. It's an easy
drive through a valley. San Luis Obispo is a tidy
little town, mostly one and two story buildings surrounded by
(31:24):
green hills, but there is something about this place that
starts to freak me out. We are entering what is
probably Leslie's town, so she might see us nervous again.
Imagine feeling nervous for like weeks on end, and that's me.
I have this not in my stomach because we could
(31:47):
be busted at any time, and I don't know what
they would mean. I don't know what it would feel
like for Leslie to see us and go, WHOA, Simon
and Ollie, I've always known that somebody was going to
come looking for me or which has it been long enough?
And she's got no idea and we're just a couple
of Americans, one in a Detroit Tiger's hat and one
(32:08):
in a yankees at cruising through town in a muscle car.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Well, the thing is, I think the amount of people
that she's jooped like, we're not the only people that
she's kind of weary of seeing, you know, Imagine the
list of people that potentially could be coming to look
for her.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
So the thing is, we still don't know where to
find her, and we can't just hang out on street
corners until she walks past or something. But Cameron has
given us another lead. He knows someone else who lives
in San Luis Obispo. It's the former wine manager from Phenomenal.
Apparently she had been friends with Leslie. She's up for
(32:45):
having a chat with us, so we head over to
her place. She doesn't want to have her real name
used either. It's another small town, so I'm going to
call her Sarah. Here we are. I'm just pulling into
the driveway a beautiful garden. I think she's there in
the in the in the garden doing some weeding and stuff.
This is my brother.
Speaker 7 (33:05):
Simon to meet you. You're not great, I'm not.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Brother in between us, got it?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, he's got a little girl to look after and
job a.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Bit too emotional, firm coming up.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Sarah's place is right on a golf course. Like her,
windows occasionally get smashed by shank shots. She met Leslie
soon after everything went down and in z when Leslie
came back to the States.
Speaker 7 (33:34):
An instant friendship. We both just moved to the area.
We didn't know a ton of people, and we were
part of this opening team. I was knew, I was nervous.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I didn't know.
Speaker 7 (33:42):
I only knew one other person, and so the charm
definitely drew me in. She just, you know, she has
this very charismatic quality about her that she can just
introduce herself and instantly want to try and make a
connection with you. And it's like she uses her wide range,
as she said it, of worldly experience and uses it
(34:04):
to kind of become a little bit of a like
an older sister. It will get better. Everything's okay, you
are amazing, You've got so much going for you. And
that was just that was her way.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I've got one thing on my mind that I can't
help but ask, you know, please tell us what you
heard about what happened in New Zealand.
Speaker 7 (34:25):
Well, I heard your family's pretty terrible, pretty terrible.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Simon's laughing sounds.
Speaker 7 (34:33):
Yeah, no, I remember, because I was going to New Zealand.
She told me, never fall in love with the Kiwi.
They're the worst man, the worst man. You never want
to fall in love with the Kiwi. But about your family,
she basically distilled it down to, was your parents were
after her parents' money.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
But as far as we can tell, Leslie might have
actually transferred my parents' money to her mom and dad. Anyway,
while she was away from the US, Sarah stayed in
touch with Leslie, and when Phenomenal was opening, Leslie wanted
Sarah to move back and be part of it.
Speaker 7 (35:06):
Yeah, I was a restaurant person and I always wanted
to be a Simolia. And so she presented the opportunity.
She's like, you know what, if you're ready to come home,
just come home and be be my line director, be
the person that is that buys the wine for the restaurant.
You can make all the selections.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And with that, Sarah became another person drawn into Leslie's
restaurant dreams.
Speaker 7 (35:27):
But then once kind of the honeymoon period was over,
I guess for the restaurant, and more rumors started getting
going around about town that maybe a vendor hadn't been paid.
Then you know, more seats at empty, fewer people were
coming in, and Leslie really started disappearing. She just wouldn't
show up, and she's like, I just can't I'm too
(35:49):
stressed out.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Eventually Sarah started to realize what was going on. She
started asking questions about all the things that didn't add
up with Leslie.
Speaker 7 (35:58):
So I became public enemy number one in the restaurant.
I was feeling the rest of the staff treating me differently,
and that's basically because she was just trashing me, that
mouth me because I wasn't her little number one worker
by anymore.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Sarah says that Leslie tried to make her escapegoat for
some of the chaos at Phenomenal.
Speaker 5 (36:20):
It was hearpe breaking.
Speaker 7 (36:21):
It was quite frankly heartbreaking and absolutely confidence scheeking because
I had always prayed myself as being someone a good friend,
a loyal friend, and really damn good at my job.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
The whole experience left Sarah feeling like she needed to
get away. She quit, But after Leslie was kicked out
of Cameron's house and Phenomenal, Leslie didn't move country or
even state. She moved to the same town as Sarah,
and being a pretty small town, they eventually ran into
each other about a year ago. This might be the
(36:57):
final lead I need to find Leslie. It turns out
that after running at least four different bars and restaurants
around the world, Leslie was working in a supermarket. Sarah
heard her laugh from another aisle.
Speaker 7 (37:13):
Yeah, I heard the laugh, and I was like, surely
not absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
No way.
Speaker 7 (37:19):
And then I got to the end of the aisle
and I froze and she was like restocking something, and
she looked over and just says hello, Sarah, and like
half an aisle away, like she knew it was me.
She saw it was me, and I was just like,
oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Hi. They chatted for a bit. Lasley even acknowledged she
couldn't get away with much in a small town.
Speaker 7 (37:43):
Well, it was like calling out the elephant in the room.
We couldn't not talk about what had happened. But then
it's like she checked herself and realized, oh, this person
knows some of the things I've tried to get away
with in a small town.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Despite everything that happened between them, Leasley almost talked it away.
Speaker 7 (37:59):
I think this is just like a testament to her
in her charm. When I ran into her at the
grocery store and listening to her just like spin and
spin and spin and spin, I felt empathy for her,
and I really had a hard time stopping myself from
inviting her over to that gathering I was having at
my house that night, even though like it was the
(38:21):
wildest thing, and I'm very grateful that I did not
open that Pandora's box.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Again.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well that's exactly what I'm going to try and do.
I'm here to open Pandora's box. The supermarket Sarah is
talking about is just around the corner. If Leslie still
works there, I'll be able to find her. How do
you think she would react when we turn up? Well,
it'll be just me. Really. Simon's a bit intimidating to
(38:48):
roll up with as well. I keep saying that, But
I just find you intimidating.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Mate, Yeah, because you used to get bitten up when
you're little.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
What do you think she would say to all of
this stuff that's happened now.
Speaker 7 (39:01):
I don't think she'll talk to you. I really don't
think she'll talk to you. I think she'll see you
and she'll run out the back door.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
She might front Shiel.
Speaker 7 (39:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
So this might be it. We might have found Leslie.
Simon and I figure we'll scope out the supermarket later.
What we need to do now is call Mum, Dad
and Greg back home. They're hanging for updates, so we
find a place to stay and call a family skype meeting.
It starts the way they always do.
Speaker 14 (39:31):
Good, Hey, your dad, have we got out with your.
Speaker 15 (39:38):
Just look like we have?
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Once the tech stuff is sorted. It's down to business.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
How are you guys?
Speaker 15 (39:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Good?
Speaker 15 (39:46):
Hey, tell us what have you done today?
Speaker 5 (39:47):
For goodness sake?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I tell them everything you've heard. Just Mum wants more
detail about what we've been eating and if we're looking
after ourselves. After hearing Cameron's story and how similar it
was to ours, Mum has some thoughts. I have no.
Speaker 16 (40:01):
Hatred for here. I don't really have any anger for here.
She just leaves me. God's mate. It's beyond reason, isn't
it that she could do these things tonight? We've learned
from you that it's a pattern, so she knows very
(40:23):
well what she's doing and what works.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Then I tell them about where Leslie's been working.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
Works on a supermarket.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, man, what do you make of that?
Speaker 14 (40:34):
She'll be planning her way to climb out of it
by burning someone else. She'll she'll have more mass goar
on now than ever before, trying to trap someone else.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
And what do you think of everything we've told you
so far?
Speaker 12 (40:48):
Man?
Speaker 14 (40:49):
Just ticking like lots of bells are going in my head,
and I just think she needs to be stopped more
than ever before.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
What we're going to do is stake out the place
tomorrow and try and figure out what time she's working
and be there for either the start or end of
her shift. It's very important that we don't intimidate her physically,
you know, threaten or getting any sort of altercation. I'm
really going in palms open, trying to be friendly, Greg.
(41:19):
What do you think she's gonna say?
Speaker 14 (41:21):
Firstly, I wouldn't probably expect too much. She's she'll the
mechanics in her head will work pretty fast and she'll
be this is not good for Leslie. Minuchians. What's an
escape route?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So what will I do if I've got this one shot,
one opportunity to talk to Leslie? I want to know
what everyone would want me to say, So we go
round the room.
Speaker 15 (41:54):
Just to basically turn a life around. That would be
my thought for her.
Speaker 12 (41:59):
I would say, she needs to know what a hell
of a lot of life she's missed out on, that
she could have had a really nice life here in
New Zealand.
Speaker 15 (42:13):
My desire for her would be that she understands the
issues that she's dealt out to a lot of people
around the world, that she genuinely seeks to rehabilitate herself
into some sort of normality. I don't know how that
(42:36):
could be. Maybe doctor Phil could help her.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
At long last, there it is again, Dad getting a
plugin for doctor Phil. Simon and I are laughing so
hard we have to turn our mic off. Greg has
been really courageous letting me tell this story. I've been
hoping that this whole thing will bring him some sort
of closure. So I asked him what he would say
(42:59):
to Leslie.
Speaker 14 (43:01):
That's a tough, tough question, but it would be along
the lines that her behavior has to come to an end,
and chaps from New Zealand are going to help bring
that end of behavior about Sorry, well sorry? What what
(43:21):
I want you to say to her?
Speaker 5 (43:23):
Right now?
Speaker 14 (43:24):
I'll just say it's it's over, because we're gonna make
it that way.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
You have been real brave through all this, man. We
as we wrap up sharing some love, there's another message
that gets repeated.
Speaker 15 (43:38):
Be safe, Be safe.
Speaker 14 (43:39):
Love you guys, man, Love you, guys.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Love you.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
After our family meeting, I lie awake in the cheap
motel bed, rehearsing what I'm going to say. I've been
working on this thing for months, but my family has
been dealing with the fallout for years. And all this
time later it could all come to some sort of culmination.
I have no idea what I'm in for where. Okay,
(44:13):
oh yeah, I see you, I see you. That's next
time on Snowball.
Speaker 6 (44:49):
Binge episodes of deep Cover presents Snowball early and ad
free with a Pushkin Plus subscription.
Speaker 5 (44:56):
Fine Pushkin Plus.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
On the deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts, or
at pushkin dot fm slash Plus.
Speaker 6 (45:05):
Pushkin Plus subscribers can access ad free episodes, full of
udio books and exclusive binges of other true crime podcasts
throughout the year.
Pushkin. This episode contains occasional course language, and we've used
some voice actors to bring emails to life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I've been trying to understand how my brother's ex wife,
Leslie Minuchian thinks. My journey so far has been like
tunneling through the matrix. I've been gradually digging deeper into
the world Leslie lives in. Actually, it's kind of like
two worlds. It seems like Leslie has a fantasy world
(00:50):
where she invents characters and a Hollywood movie about her life,
but she also lives in the real world where people
like my brother Greg are drawn into her spirals.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Oh, I was absolutely like a serving dark mate.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Greg called me the other day, and I guess he's
been thinking about that too.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Like who's the most prime target for an American female
con artist with flat hair? It's great, warts you couldn't
have lined it up better. Honestly, I would suggest I
was the most obvious target. I was looking for the
North American accent. It was done in the day one man.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So do you think that she actually knew that as well?
And I guess it just made things easier for her now.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
She didn't know that because she didn't know who I was,
but it was the collision of multi fraudster versus the
other side being someone wanting to believe in the American treatment.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
So far, I found out about the trouble Leslie got
into before she came to New Zealand. But now I
want to know about what happened after Leslie left Greg
the Dragonfly and New Zealand behind. And the only way
to find out more is to get closer to Leslie. Literally.
I'm on her home turf in California with my other brother, Simon.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
It's hot and sunny, like California should be.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
We're doing our best detective impressions in Hawaiian shirts and
a muscle car. We're definitely more flood of the Concords
than true detective. All right, we have a car running
a gentle rumble in her background. It's a per per,
but we've got good leads and we're determined to find
(02:42):
out more. We are today heading to a northern Californian
town called Passer Robles. I'm following this trail to find
answers for my family and to find Leslie. Let's at
the road, sweet, I'm Molly Watts, and this is Snowball.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
We do not even call her by her name anymore,
so we call her.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
The Black Widow.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
She has a laugh that could you know you hear
it across the room.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
How did she get over on you? How did this happen?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
She was just kind of reckless with everything. I don't
think she ever thought she would actually get caught.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
And he basically said, when I got home, there was.
Speaker 6 (03:30):
A bong load, a martini and a blow job, and
I just didn't think about it.
Speaker 7 (03:35):
I don't think she'll talk to you. I think she'll
see you and she'll run out the back door.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
I've had sony dreams of like talking to her. I
just want to ask her, like, oh God, like why
did you do this?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Where we're hitting is about three and a half hours
northwest of la Driving into wine country, there's vineyards and
boosed up baby boomers everywhere. It was only four years
after Leslie left my brother Greg and the failing Dragonfly
and in Zed when she popped up hair and passerobles
(04:15):
running another restaurant. This one was called Phenomenal. That's phenomenal
with an F. A review of Leslie's new restaurant appeared
on trevel Passo dot com.
Speaker 8 (04:29):
The whole phenomenal concept was extremely well thought out and
executed by owner Leslie Manukian. Her prior experience of owning
and operating a burger Barron Lake Tahoe, a California cuisine,
fish and steak restaurant in Maui, and an artsy breakfast
cafe in New Zealand taught her what is required to
launch a successful business in the food and wine space.
(04:50):
That and eating in forty seven countries in seven years.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's only a bit cheeky Leslie telling people about her
successful bars and Tahoe, Hawaii and now an artsy breakfast
cafe and in zed Lucky. The journalist who wrote that
didn't check references. So here's another grand opening, another hospitality business,
and maybe this time things turned out differently. Nah. Before
(05:22):
we came to passer Robeles, I tracked down the people
involved with this restaurant and it sounds messy. Here we are,
Simon driving through passer Roobuls. The streets are really wide,
The houses look like they're made of lego in that
they have a tiny little stoop, and that they're all
(05:44):
perfectly trimmed and painted. Hello, we're all right to park
this monstrosity of a car. Here are we? This is
the real owner of that restaurant phenomenal. He's happy to talk,
but I've changed his name to Cameron in person. He
(06:06):
doesn't want to have any more personal or professional impact
from what happened to him. Thank you for having us.
He's a business guy, engineering background, big build. He's got
a gray goaty. Cameron invited Simon and I round to
his really nice house. It's on a hill with a
view of trees and other big villas in the neighborhood.
To get up to his front door, we climbed a
(06:27):
rock staircase through a terraced garden. It's a blue sky day.
Is it always like this? Yes? Pretty much, so we're
sitting out on the balcony. Cameron says that when he
first met Leslie, he had just been through a divorce.
One night, he was having dinner with his mum and
Leslie was their waiter.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
She seemed to indicate that she was worldly, adventurous and
wanted to have the zastralafe and just enjoy life.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
So they start dating. They were only together a few
months when things jumped to the next level, and.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Next thing I know, she was just there a lot more,
and she's like, well, hey, I shouldn't be paying rent
when I'm here a lot anyway, so I'll just move in.
And it just kind of happened. It wasn't like a discussion,
It just kind of kind of unfolded.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Cameron was okay with that though. He thought it'd be
fun to have Leslie around, and it sounds like he
was right. Cameron's friends remember Leslie joining me cr We.
Speaker 9 (07:21):
Instantly became friends. I mean, she was easy to talk to,
she was interesting and interested in everyone. I mean it
was just so so easy to get along, and she
always had fun things. You know, she always came up
with fun things to do, and you definitely had the
sense that she like came from money.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
But another of Cameron's friends I spoke to Rickens, Leslie
wasn't his usual type.
Speaker 6 (07:48):
She seems very nice. I did think that she was
an odd match.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Didn't seem his uh, you know, his typical cup of kea.
Speaker 6 (07:56):
For a relationship way, but very outgoing.
Speaker 9 (08:00):
I just different differences.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
Even in her appearance. She's loud, she has you know,
large hair, long nails, paint.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
So I think that it was a kind of an
out of character relationship for him.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Cameron's mate asked him what he saw in Lesley?
Speaker 5 (08:16):
How did she get over on you? How did this happen?
Speaker 6 (08:21):
And he basically said, when I got home, there was
a bong load, a martini and a blowjob, and I
just didn't think about it. I just said yes and
I signed.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Lisley was also adventurous with all her worldly experience. She
encouraged Cameron's desire to travel and they started planning a
trip down Undone.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
I've never been to Australia, so I thought that would
be great, Let's go to Australia. I was in the
process of actually getting scuba dive certified, and so the
goal was to go down there, do some wine tasting
in Brosa, go see Melbourne, make sure I see all
the sites, and just make a trip out of it.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
So flights were booked, hotels are booked.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
But Lisley's checkered past was about to interfere with their
plans because back in New Zealand, my dad was still
trying to figure out what had happened and where Leslie
had gone. Dad was reading about book deals, movie stars
and boats, and Leslie's emails like you heard last episode.
He thought it all might be real, and he was
(09:30):
wondering how Leslie could get away from New Zealand and
her guarantee of the Dragonfly Bank loan without paying a cent.
So Dad arranged for a private investigator to find Leslie
to see if all the glitz and glamour was legit
and to see if she would forfeit her boat to
help pay off the loan. And this American PI he
(09:50):
found her at Cameron's house. We know what happened next
from Leslie's perspective because she emailed a friend about it.
Speaker 10 (09:59):
A private investigator showed up at my door. Dave Wartz
hired him to find me. I kindly invited him in
and we had a long talk about all the accusations
that they have made against me.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
The PI found Leslie so convincing that from the report
he sent back and her emails, it seems like she
managed to flip him to her side. Leslie even refers
to him as my PI at the end of her
email to her mate. Even though the PI was working
for my Dad, he ended up giving her information, including
(10:34):
one crucial piece of intel.
Speaker 10 (10:36):
The PI told me, I have a warrant for my arrest.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
In n said it wasn't a warrant for arrest, but
the cops told me that they would be alerted if
Leslie set foot in New Zealand. And those flights that
Leslie and Cameron had to Australia only a week later,
they were connecting through New Zealand. If they went on
their holiday, Leslie might have had to have a little
(11:00):
chat with the Kiwi cops. So she panicked. Leslie had
to come up with an excuse as to why they
couldn't get on that plane.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Next thing I know, she says, there was She came
up with a couple different stories and so but the
final story that we landed on was that there were
so many major storms happening in Australia at the time.
Speaker 5 (11:23):
There's that the Great Barrier Reef was going to be cloudy.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
We weren't going to be able to scuba dive there
because you wouldn't see anything. So the whole purpose of
you know, one of the purposes to go there is
to enjoy the scuba diving and snorkeling and stuff. So
it was based on weather.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
At the time.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
They were meant to be meeting some friends in Australia
and they caught a different excuse from Leslie in an email.
Speaker 10 (11:44):
I have the worst news ever. Cameron and I are
not going to make it to Australia. As you know,
Cameron uses air miles for travel to Australia. Well, we
were printing down all of our arrangements and Cameron noticed
that our names were spelled wrong on our ticketing information.
(12:06):
I'm so upset. I do not even know where to begin.
I have been on the phone all night canceling and
changing bookings.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So their tickets were void because Cameron got their names
wrong on the booking. It's a testament to how doggedly
Leslie can tell us story that everyone just let it slide.
Leslie was spinning an even more important story for Cameron.
It was Leslie's greatest hit story of being a successful
restaurant heur, and predictably, it wasn't long before Leslie started
(12:38):
suggesting that Cameron should invest a ton of money in
a new restaurant, and like a lot of people before him,
Cameron was keen.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
So I thought, between the tourists, you know, if she's
already done it four or five times, this would be
an easy situation. I can invest in this, I can
do this and make a nice successful business in the
local area here.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Eventually Cameron agreed and they launched Phenomenal. The restaurant started strongly.
The headline of that review you heard before was the
phenomenal story of a great new Pessa Robels Restaurant Love,
a pun title, Cameron says. Lesley wasn't actually employed at
the restaurant, but as his girlfriend. She was helping out
(13:19):
with a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
She went and basically told everybody that was her restaurant,
and most people found out much later that she didn't
even put a penny in there, not a dime, not
a dollar. She did spend time in there, but you know,
she was just kind of reckless with everything, including when
we were purchasing equipment. You know, we were buying equipment,
and all of a sudden, next day, know, she was
returning something and then going and getting some other piece
(13:42):
of equipment, the same piece of equipment with a lease,
and so the money flow would just be crazy in
the fact that wait, I just bought a new ten
burner stove and now all of a sudden, I'm leasing one.
Where'd that money go? And so it was it was
things like that where it just didn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
As Cameron talks about how Leslie was involved at his restaurant,
I've got deja vo, Cameron says, strange stuff was going
on with the accounting. Phenomenal was a tap us joint,
but it sounds like it was the book that were
getting cooked, or at least a bit scrambled.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
One time, Pugenie called me and said, by the way,
we're shutting your electric off, and I'm like, what are
you talking about. I repaid him and they're like, no,
you're like six grand in the hall and I'm like, no,
I have these receipts. I sent him the receives and
they said these are fraudulent. She took the logo from
their website, put it onto a blank piece of paper,
wrote it out, this is your receipt for this dollar
amount for this account and had that in the books
(14:35):
as if she had paid it.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It wasn't just the electricity bill that wasn't getting paid.
Quite early on, someone stuck a flyer on the windows
of the restaurant saying, shame on you, Phenomenal restaurant. You
are doing business at the expense of local subcontractors. Pay
your bills. When I asked Cameron if I can see
some of this stuff, he takes me inside. Cameron goes
(14:59):
to the filing cabinet and comes back arms full. He
dumps his papers on the polished wood dining room table.
You've got a couple of red folder's hair. One of
them's caught black widow written on it.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
So most of my friends we do not even call
her by her name anymore. She's not worthy of being named,
so we call her the black widow.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Of course, the black Widow is famously eight sis romantic
partner off to a little while. Right exactly, Cameron spreads
out a bunch of papers on the table in front
of us and starts to take me through what happened.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
So what I have in front of me here are
a bunch of bank documents. And you know, the thing
is that, you know, when you're running a business, you
don't typically run it through a lot of cash based things.
You want to make sure there's a paper trail. But
for whatever reason, she chose to go and withdraw cash.
So I can't prove that she's taking this cash and
put it in her pocket or her bank accounts. But
all I can do is say, well, here, okay, this
(16:06):
month alone, there was six thousand dollars withdrawal by cash,
five thousand dollars, five thousand dollars. There's another five thousand.
There's another three thousand that's in thirty days withdrawal of cash.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Cameron could keep going next month and he does another.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Five thousand dollars, two thousand dollars, three thousand.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
While all this was happening, Leslie wasn't being paid like
she was on the phenomenal staff. Cameron says the deal
was until the business started making money. He was covering
everything like food, rent and overseas holidays. But maybe Leslie
thought she was entitled to some money in the meantime.
It's just the next thing he shows me looks like
(16:44):
a murky way for Leslie to sort herself out with cash.
He pulls out some scans of checks. He reckons Leslie
forged his signature on.
Speaker 5 (16:53):
Oh look at that.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
It happens to be to her father, Andrew Manukian for
six hundred and fifty dollars minimum credit card payment. Is
what it's showing here, not my signature.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Then there's a real big boy. Cameron says he made
the mistake of leaving a blank check around for emergencies.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
You know, this is something that is the most disturbing.
Thirty thousand dollars thirty eight hundred and fifty dollars made
out to cash. I have no idea where the money went.
I mean, I'm an idiot for allowing that to happen.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I mean that's actually probably physically quite a lot of piper.
Like I would imagine going up to the bank teller
and handing that chick across, and I would sort of
have to go into the vault and you know, get
a bag and manage your approval and all that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
So it goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I mean, did you think about going to the police
when you found this?
Speaker 5 (17:48):
Yes, it's too painful to go through.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
That part of it was the survivability piece, is that,
you know, I still had to move on in my life.
I didn't lose my house, but I was close. I
did lose my car. I had to let that go,
you know, And so there's been so many things along
that way that I'm like, you know what, I just
need to figure out a way to survive. And not
only that, it's a small town, so you know, it
was better for me to just suck it up, understand
(18:13):
that I made a mistake with who I partnered with,
and chuck it up as a life experience and move on.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
So it all happens again, allegations of fake documents, forge checks,
mysterious lumps of cash going missing. Then Leslie gets to
walk away. Only this time it was Cameron's conscious choice
not to pursue her, even if he wanted to change
his mind. Now it's probably too late. There's a statute
of limitations on fraud in California of three years. We
(18:48):
sit around the dining room table talking for ages and
Simon starts to wonder, if Cameron didn't talk to the cops,
then why us.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Obviously you decided not to kind of approach anyone else
about it. What made you talk to Olian leads us
to be sitting here together?
Speaker 4 (19:02):
So I guess, first and foremost, I think the fact
that I had it bad, but your brother Greg had
it way worse.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
In your parents.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
So for me at that point in time, it was
kind of like, well, you know, what if there's a
way that I can somehow help and whether it's helped
this be successful or help her to be stopped or
to somehow help someone else have closure.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
That was pretty important to me.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
But it turns out it wasn't that easy inviting us
to come over. Cameron's partner has been sitting with us
this whole time, nodding a head to what she already knows,
and at times looking pretty shocked as she finds out more.
Speaker 11 (19:39):
When Cameron told me about it, initially, I could just
see this black cloud above his head and he was
just for a few days there, he didn't know if
he wanted to do it or not. And I was
excited about the possibility of this happening because I knew
just from the outside looking at Cameron, that he needed
(20:01):
to process it because I, in my opinion, he kind
of put a lot of things, just checked it under
the rug and just wanted to pretend it didn't ever happen.
And I knew that.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
I just kept putting it in a file cabinet. It's like,
you know what, let's just let's just look at this
ten years from now. Let's laugh about this in ten years.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (20:19):
I mean, he did have an inkling that maybe someday,
you know, he would be happy that he didn't throw
away some of these papers, but I knew he needed
to process all that that had happened to him. And
once that happens with any trauma, once you are able
to actually finally process it all, you can really then
(20:40):
go on with your life.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
That's when Simon and I start to realize this stuff
is still present for them. They've got this nice house
on a hill and they're doing well, but the betrayal
of your trust, that kind of thing takes longer to
get past.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Did this kind of change the way you'd look at
kind of going into business or even going into relationships
after that?
Speaker 5 (20:59):
Like?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Do you did it negatively affect you like that?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Or?
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Unfortunately?
Speaker 4 (21:03):
The bad part of that is, you know, it's it's
like trust your employees, trust your people, but verify. And
I definitely don't have as much trust for the people
in my lives, and so therefore I definitely have to
verify them a lot more. I mean, I think I
appreciate the things that you have around you a lot
more than I did before, because you know, I was fat, dumb,
(21:26):
and happier or whatever, and just you know, I was
I was doing well, and I was I was making
my bills, and you know, after that it's kind.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
Of like, well, wait, what makes you happy?
Speaker 4 (21:35):
And I truly was not happy during that period of
my life because there was the probably the highest stress
level I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
So this whole experience did have a lasting effect. These
that phrase it's bitter to have loved and lost than
they've loved at all. With this relationship, Cameron definitely lost.
But was the love you were with Leslie for a
couple of years. Did your relationship get to that point
where you think she loved you?
Speaker 5 (22:01):
No, not at all.
Speaker 12 (22:02):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
I don't think she was ever in love with me.
I think that she was in love with the opportunities
and the lifestyle.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
No.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
I never really felt any love from her. You know,
there was at times some respect that was about the
only thing, like hey, you're successful in your career. But
for the most part, no, it was more like, you know,
two people just going out and having fun. At times
when we go places, it was more about like let's
go have fun. It wasn't about any kind of a
romantic situation.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
There's one other perspective I wanted to get from this
time in Cameron's life. Cameron's daughter was living with them,
when Lesley moved in, she was around ten at the time.
Now she's eighteen and off at college. I wanted to
hear how all this went for her. Cameron suggested I
give her a call.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
Like when I met her, I you know, thought she
was fun. She's really like kind of tough and like
unlike other women that I had met or are, they're
like female like I don't know figures in my life.
So I thought she was like kind of cool at first.
She would always like wrestle with me and like rough
house and like you know, talk about like being tough
(23:10):
and all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Kimeron's daughter sees that Lesley was sort of a play
night rather than a parent figure.
Speaker 6 (23:15):
Like I remember one time, like when we were playing basketball,
like I threw the basketball at her and it hit
her in the boobs, and she just like got so
mad at me, Like she started yelling, you did that
on purpose, you fucking manipulate a bitch, Like what the
fuck are you doing? And like she just would just
go off suddenly, and I just like would be totally
freaked out and like.
Speaker 8 (23:35):
Not know what I did.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
Uh, And and my dad would always like say, like, oh,
she's just she's never been around kids. She just doesn't
really like know that you're not supposed to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
As time went on, it sounds like their interactions became
more hurtful.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
She's like, oh my god, honey, you must get made
fun of so much in school for your mustache and
for your and for your your your body hair, like
I remember I did, like and she was like being
like relates, like trying to be relatable like I remember
I did, and like, you know, I didn't have like
a mother who would like help me with that kind
(24:10):
of stuff like your mother, you know, like your mother
or your mother obviously like isn't talking to you about this.
But I can like help you and teach you how
to shave your legs, and I can give you this
cream that you can just put on your lip and
it'll get rid of the hair. And at the time,
like I was like ten, so I didn't even have
any like not like I didn't even notice it. I
(24:33):
had never been made fun of it, and I like
was just like I don't know, kind of like suddenly
like self conscious about this thing.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Cameron's daughter has thought a lot about it since.
Speaker 6 (24:47):
Okay, this is really hard to say, I've actually like
in the aftermath of her like leaving and whatever. Like
I've had so many dreams of like like talking to her,
just because like I felt like there was never any
closure there, but like, oh God, like why did you
(25:07):
do this? I like a part of me believes that
she's just like a really broken person that just have
a lot of issues and just can't help but to
recavoc wherever she goes.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
I always wonder, I mean, all of the time and
effort that she put into creating scams and creating all
these things, if she just took the brains of that
and did something right with her life, she could probably
be successful.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
It's unreal because our dad had just sold his business
just before they bought the Dragonfly, and he invested sort
of two hundred grand cash and then guaranteed the loan
for them. She didn't invest a single cent and the
whole thing. Yet she had this opportunity we were talking
about it today, where like it was a beautiful place
(26:03):
and it was in a nice part of New Zealand,
and it had a great start and everyone she could
have if she ran it, well, it could have been
a great life. So again, I don't understand why Leslie
(26:26):
seems to mess up these great opportunities in her life.
By now, I sort of expected to find a bigger purpose,
a master plan, some kind of reason for all this.
Like you'd think there would be a bigger payoff for Leslie.
Even if these tens of thousands of dollars are going
(26:47):
into her own pockets, is it worth her? In the end?
Leslie doesn't seem to end up with much. She's not
a master criminal. Some of these fake documents look like
she's made them with real life scissors and glue. Her
deceptions always seem to catch up with her. And then
(27:10):
Leslie's whole world gets turned upside down yet again, and
she has to move to a new place. So why
does she do it?
Speaker 5 (27:23):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Cameron does mention one thing I've heard before, something that
might explain some of what she does.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
I know her parents helped her and support her. There
was definitely one credit card that I remember that she
had said something about, like she ran up a credit
card and her parents paid it off for her, and
so therefore she had to give them money at various
times to help pay off the credit card that she
ran up, and it was a big number but I
just remember she would sometimes have to make payments to
(27:52):
her parents.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
This kind of thing was going on when Leslie was
in New Zealand. Two. There's an email her mum Betty
sent warning Leslie about using their credit card.
Speaker 13 (28:03):
The last time you had it was for two days
and you ran up two thousand dollars on it, of
which although I was promised to pay back, it never
came as usual.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
So maybe Leslie is constantly in debt, and maybe the
one debt that she can never really run away from
is the one she owes to her parents. Cameron spent
a fair bit of time with Leslie's parents. They even
moved up to paser Robles for a while when things
were going well. By the time Cameron was trying to
(28:37):
figure out the phenomenal financials, kind of surprisingly, Leslie's mum,
Betty came to help with the books. One night, Betty
was in the restaurant office when Cameron was realizing how
bad things were, and Betty said something that stuck with him.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
At some point in time, we were discussing something and
I said, well, this is unacceptable. We can't be running
a business in this way. And then Betty was like
what's going on? Because I don't raise my voice very often,
and I was like, this is just insane, how can
this be happening? And then she's like, oh, oh, she's
done it again, And it was just this revelation, like
(29:18):
all of a sudden, she just knew what had happened
and where we are. And Betty picked up her purse
and left, never to be seen again.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Cameron had seen enough. He kicked Leslie out, and he
warned the bank what he suspected was going on.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
And she went in the day that I shut it
off and was trying to withdraw a large sum of
money and they said, nope, you're off the account. She
apparently started crying and saying that's not fair. That's my business,
this is my company, this is all these things right there.
So the president of that bank told me all this
soul story.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
So Lislie was gone from another restaurant, another mess. This
time Lislie didn't go far. Cameron has a clue for
us about where Leslie might be now. He's actually been
kind of getting running updates about where Leslie is from
a pretty strange source. For some reason, when they were together,
(30:12):
his email address got added to her loyalty account with
a big American pharmacy chain.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
And so somehow I get these emails that says, every
time she makes a purchase, I get a.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
Receipt for what she purchased. And at first it was
kind of comical.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
I'm like, oh, great, so she's buying gummy worms, some
Nike wool, some crazy mescara or whatever. Oh wow, okay,
so she must have a call this weekend and oh hey,
you know, now she's got the munchies because she's buying
all these snack things. And it was it was quite
comical to know that she was still in the area
and at the same time going she hasn't changed a thing.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Cameron tells Simon and I the receipts have been coming
from a place called San Louis Obispo.
Speaker 5 (30:56):
Saint Louis OBISBA.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
How far is that from here, Cameron, it's about thirty
minutes from here.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
That's us. So Simon and I jumped back in the car.
Next stop on road trip to Snowball. It's an easy
drive through a valley. San Luis Obispo is a tidy
little town, mostly one and two story buildings surrounded by
(31:24):
green hills, but there is something about this place that
starts to freak me out. We are entering what is
probably Leslie's town, so she might see us nervous again.
Imagine feeling nervous for like weeks on end, and that's me.
I have this not in my stomach because we could
(31:47):
be busted at any time, and I don't know what
they would mean. I don't know what it would feel
like for Leslie to see us and go, WHOA, Simon
and Ollie, I've always known that somebody was going to
come looking for me or which has it been long enough?
And she's got no idea and we're just a couple
of Americans, one in a Detroit Tiger's hat and one
(32:08):
in a yankees at cruising through town in a muscle car.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Well, the thing is, I think the amount of people
that she's jooped like, we're not the only people that
she's kind of weary of seeing, you know, Imagine the
list of people that potentially could be coming to look
for her.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
So the thing is, we still don't know where to
find her, and we can't just hang out on street
corners until she walks past or something. But Cameron has
given us another lead. He knows someone else who lives
in San Luis Obispo. It's the former wine manager from Phenomenal.
Apparently she had been friends with Leslie. She's up for
(32:45):
having a chat with us, so we head over to
her place. She doesn't want to have her real name
used either. It's another small town, so I'm going to
call her Sarah. Here we are. I'm just pulling into
the driveway a beautiful garden. I think she's there in
the in the in the garden doing some weeding and stuff.
This is my brother.
Speaker 7 (33:05):
Simon to meet you. You're not great, I'm not.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Brother in between us, got it?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, he's got a little girl to look after and
job a.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Bit too emotional, firm coming up.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Sarah's place is right on a golf course. Like her,
windows occasionally get smashed by shank shots. She met Leslie
soon after everything went down and in z when Leslie
came back to the States.
Speaker 7 (33:34):
An instant friendship. We both just moved to the area.
We didn't know a ton of people, and we were
part of this opening team. I was knew, I was nervous.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I didn't know.
Speaker 7 (33:42):
I only knew one other person, and so the charm
definitely drew me in. She just, you know, she has
this very charismatic quality about her that she can just
introduce herself and instantly want to try and make a
connection with you. And it's like she uses her wide range,
as she said it, of worldly experience and uses it
(34:04):
to kind of become a little bit of a like
an older sister. It will get better. Everything's okay, you
are amazing, You've got so much going for you. And
that was just that was her way.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I've got one thing on my mind that I can't
help but ask, you know, please tell us what you
heard about what happened in New Zealand.
Speaker 7 (34:25):
Well, I heard your family's pretty terrible, pretty terrible.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Simon's laughing sounds.
Speaker 7 (34:33):
Yeah, no, I remember, because I was going to New Zealand.
She told me, never fall in love with the Kiwi.
They're the worst man, the worst man. You never want
to fall in love with the Kiwi. But about your family,
she basically distilled it down to, was your parents were
after her parents' money.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
But as far as we can tell, Leslie might have
actually transferred my parents' money to her mom and dad. Anyway,
while she was away from the US, Sarah stayed in
touch with Leslie, and when Phenomenal was opening, Leslie wanted
Sarah to move back and be part of it.
Speaker 7 (35:06):
Yeah, I was a restaurant person and I always wanted
to be a Simolia. And so she presented the opportunity.
She's like, you know what, if you're ready to come home,
just come home and be be my line director, be
the person that is that buys the wine for the restaurant.
You can make all the selections.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And with that, Sarah became another person drawn into Leslie's
restaurant dreams.
Speaker 7 (35:27):
But then once kind of the honeymoon period was over,
I guess for the restaurant, and more rumors started getting
going around about town that maybe a vendor hadn't been paid.
Then you know, more seats at empty, fewer people were
coming in, and Leslie really started disappearing. She just wouldn't
show up, and she's like, I just can't I'm too
(35:49):
stressed out.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Eventually Sarah started to realize what was going on. She
started asking questions about all the things that didn't add
up with Leslie.
Speaker 7 (35:58):
So I became public enemy number one in the restaurant.
I was feeling the rest of the staff treating me differently,
and that's basically because she was just trashing me, that
mouth me because I wasn't her little number one worker
by anymore.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Sarah says that Leslie tried to make her escapegoat for
some of the chaos at Phenomenal.
Speaker 5 (36:20):
It was hearpe breaking.
Speaker 7 (36:21):
It was quite frankly heartbreaking and absolutely confidence scheeking because
I had always prayed myself as being someone a good friend,
a loyal friend, and really damn good at my job.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
The whole experience left Sarah feeling like she needed to
get away. She quit, But after Leslie was kicked out
of Cameron's house and Phenomenal, Leslie didn't move country or
even state. She moved to the same town as Sarah,
and being a pretty small town, they eventually ran into
each other about a year ago. This might be the
(36:57):
final lead I need to find Leslie. It turns out
that after running at least four different bars and restaurants
around the world, Leslie was working in a supermarket. Sarah
heard her laugh from another aisle.
Speaker 7 (37:13):
Yeah, I heard the laugh, and I was like, surely
not absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
No way.
Speaker 7 (37:19):
And then I got to the end of the aisle
and I froze and she was like restocking something, and
she looked over and just says hello, Sarah, and like
half an aisle away, like she knew it was me.
She saw it was me, and I was just like,
oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Hi. They chatted for a bit. Lasley even acknowledged she
couldn't get away with much in a small town.
Speaker 7 (37:43):
Well, it was like calling out the elephant in the room.
We couldn't not talk about what had happened. But then
it's like she checked herself and realized, oh, this person
knows some of the things I've tried to get away
with in a small town.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Despite everything that happened between them, Leasley almost talked it away.
Speaker 7 (37:59):
I think this is just like a testament to her
in her charm. When I ran into her at the
grocery store and listening to her just like spin and
spin and spin and spin, I felt empathy for her,
and I really had a hard time stopping myself from
inviting her over to that gathering I was having at
my house that night, even though like it was the
(38:21):
wildest thing, and I'm very grateful that I did not
open that Pandora's box.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Again.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well that's exactly what I'm going to try and do.
I'm here to open Pandora's box. The supermarket Sarah is
talking about is just around the corner. If Leslie still
works there, I'll be able to find her. How do
you think she would react when we turn up? Well,
it'll be just me. Really. Simon's a bit intimidating to
(38:48):
roll up with as well. I keep saying that, But
I just find you intimidating.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Mate, Yeah, because you used to get bitten up when
you're little.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
What do you think she would say to all of
this stuff that's happened now.
Speaker 7 (39:01):
I don't think she'll talk to you. I really don't
think she'll talk to you. I think she'll see you
and she'll run out the back door.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
She might front Shiel.
Speaker 7 (39:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
So this might be it. We might have found Leslie.
Simon and I figure we'll scope out the supermarket later.
What we need to do now is call Mum, Dad
and Greg back home. They're hanging for updates, so we
find a place to stay and call a family skype meeting.
It starts the way they always do.
Speaker 14 (39:31):
Good, Hey, your dad, have we got out with your.
Speaker 15 (39:38):
Just look like we have?
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Once the tech stuff is sorted. It's down to business.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
How are you guys?
Speaker 15 (39:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Good?
Speaker 15 (39:46):
Hey, tell us what have you done today?
Speaker 5 (39:47):
For goodness sake?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I tell them everything you've heard. Just Mum wants more
detail about what we've been eating and if we're looking
after ourselves. After hearing Cameron's story and how similar it
was to ours, Mum has some thoughts. I have no.
Speaker 16 (40:01):
Hatred for here. I don't really have any anger for here.
She just leaves me. God's mate. It's beyond reason, isn't
it that she could do these things tonight? We've learned
from you that it's a pattern, so she knows very
(40:23):
well what she's doing and what works.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Then I tell them about where Leslie's been working.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
Works on a supermarket.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, man, what do you make of that?
Speaker 14 (40:34):
She'll be planning her way to climb out of it
by burning someone else. She'll she'll have more mass goar
on now than ever before, trying to trap someone else.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
And what do you think of everything we've told you
so far?
Speaker 12 (40:48):
Man?
Speaker 14 (40:49):
Just ticking like lots of bells are going in my head,
and I just think she needs to be stopped more
than ever before.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
What we're going to do is stake out the place
tomorrow and try and figure out what time she's working
and be there for either the start or end of
her shift. It's very important that we don't intimidate her physically,
you know, threaten or getting any sort of altercation. I'm
really going in palms open, trying to be friendly, Greg.
(41:19):
What do you think she's gonna say?
Speaker 14 (41:21):
Firstly, I wouldn't probably expect too much. She's she'll the
mechanics in her head will work pretty fast and she'll
be this is not good for Leslie. Minuchians. What's an
escape route?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So what will I do if I've got this one shot,
one opportunity to talk to Leslie? I want to know
what everyone would want me to say, So we go
round the room.
Speaker 15 (41:54):
Just to basically turn a life around. That would be
my thought for her.
Speaker 12 (41:59):
I would say, she needs to know what a hell
of a lot of life she's missed out on, that
she could have had a really nice life here in
New Zealand.
Speaker 15 (42:13):
My desire for her would be that she understands the
issues that she's dealt out to a lot of people
around the world, that she genuinely seeks to rehabilitate herself
into some sort of normality. I don't know how that
(42:36):
could be. Maybe doctor Phil could help her.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
At long last, there it is again, Dad getting a
plugin for doctor Phil. Simon and I are laughing so
hard we have to turn our mic off. Greg has
been really courageous letting me tell this story. I've been
hoping that this whole thing will bring him some sort
of closure. So I asked him what he would say
(42:59):
to Leslie.
Speaker 14 (43:01):
That's a tough, tough question, but it would be along
the lines that her behavior has to come to an end,
and chaps from New Zealand are going to help bring
that end of behavior about Sorry, well sorry? What what
(43:21):
I want you to say to her?
Speaker 5 (43:23):
Right now?
Speaker 14 (43:24):
I'll just say it's it's over, because we're gonna make
it that way.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
You have been real brave through all this, man. We
as we wrap up sharing some love, there's another message
that gets repeated.
Speaker 15 (43:38):
Be safe, Be safe.
Speaker 14 (43:39):
Love you guys, man, Love you, guys.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Love you.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
After our family meeting, I lie awake in the cheap
motel bed, rehearsing what I'm going to say. I've been
working on this thing for months, but my family has
been dealing with the fallout for years. And all this
time later it could all come to some sort of culmination.
I have no idea what I'm in for where. Okay,
(44:13):
oh yeah, I see you, I see you. That's next
time on Snowball.
Speaker 6 (44:49):
Binge episodes of deep Cover presents Snowball early and ad
free with a Pushkin Plus subscription.
Speaker 5 (44:56):
Fine Pushkin Plus.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
On the deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts, or
at pushkin dot fm slash Plus.
Speaker 6 (45:05):
Pushkin Plus subscribers can access ad free episodes, full of
udio books and exclusive binges of other true crime podcasts
throughout the year.
Host
Jake Halpern
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