Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome now our number three of the Tony
(00:01):
and Dwight Chow, brought to you by the Kentucky Office of
Highway Safety. Please buckle up, put the phone down, drive
the speed limit. I did not speed to Purdue and
back this weekend because the little thing that tells me
what time I'm pulling in, if I'm driving eighty two
or seventy two, I pull in at the exact same
time that that thing tells me that I'm doing. It
(00:23):
doesn't save you anytime. Slow your car down and just
chill out. The older you get, you'll be stopping at
more rest stops. That's what we do, all right. Our
number three has got a special guest. Paul Ridgewalski is
a very good friend of mine. You know, if you
said younger Tony Venetti would have good friends that were
prosecutors in Jeffson County, it probably would be well, they're
mentoring you, Tony. But Paul, for again, say I just
(00:46):
forgot forty how many years as a prosecutor?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Got forty eight, forty eight?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
You've seen it all.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
How old were you when you caught the Carlton bus crash?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well thirty seven years ago, mid.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Thirties, mid thirties.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Now you you got that case because the prosecutor in
Carrollton had a heart attack.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Correct, Yeah, John Ackman was his name and family history
young Man. Young Man. I mean, I think he was
in his forties. He dealt with the first couple of
days of it, obviously, with the kids in the bus,
with everything they did investigative wise, and then I think
within a day or two, had a major heart attack.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
What's that phone call like when you catch.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
That, Well, it's sobering, it's sobering, not doing play onwards.
But the Captain Neil Britton from the Kentucky State Police,
who was in charge of the investigation.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Well, that's another thing. It's multi level, it's local, state
and feeds.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh yeah, you know. He reached out to the Attorney
General's office going, you know, we just lost our prosecutor.
We need help direction, you know, putting this thing together
because it's a criminal case. Obviously the drunk driver survived,
so there's a prosecution involved. And it's funny because I
was here in Louisville at the time. I was working
(02:10):
on the Attorney General's office, but I was here in
Louisville doing a bar prosecution, which at the time we
did for the Kentucky Bar Association, right, prosecuted lawyers for
ethical violations, right. And I think I was right here
at the Brown Hotel and there weren't any cell phones,
you know. So somebody comes in, hands your pink slip
and says call your office. And so you call the
office and talk to the boss and they go, you know,
(02:34):
such actman's out. They need a prosecutor, call this number.
Get your butt to Carleton or get your butt to
the grange.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So okay, So there's some details that you shared with
us out a little was about seven or eight years ago.
I think we did an hour and a half because
it was so fascinating. I think we had earmarked like
twenty minutes, and then it was so fascinating we went
and we did an hour and a half with you,
and some things jumped out at me that I tell
I retail people that don't know about the case. One
(03:01):
of them is where it started, which was you described
his two friends. There was three of them. There were
two friends that tried to take his keys.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Correct. Obviously, what you do in a case like that
is you go back and try to piece together the
previous twenty four hours, which Kentucky State Police did a
terrific job of doing. And we accounted wrong with the
last twenty minutes, obviously. But he bounced around with different places,
drinking all day. But he ended up at a campground
(03:32):
in rural Owen County, Carroll County, on the line and
is but I think you know he blew a point
two four three times I legal limit.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
And even these old boys and if you could see him, Tony,
and if we could have him here in the studio
right now, they'd be right out of central casting for
you know, good old time country boys. But even they
knew he didn't even be driving, and they got the
keys away from him, and he finally, I guess he
didn't live far from there, and it was campground Rocky
(04:05):
Road after the highway, and finally he said, I'm going
to go home, give me my keys, and they gave
them back to them, and they watched.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
That was number one.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
They watched the table.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
What you're going to hear is there when tragedies happened.
Twelve things have to happen in order they give him
his keys back and they watch his tail lights go
up that road.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Gravel road out to the black top to the main highway,
and he should have turned right to get back to
his trailer, and he turned left, and then twenty minutes later.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
He ends up on the expressway.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, on the interstate.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
And some of the things that you've described that happened
in order was the bus had stopped and filled up, correct,
right right before that. So again the timing is all
adding up for this tragedy. There was also a doctor
and a nurse, a merry couple. Correct that we're driving
on the right side of the expressway and we're f
(05:00):
following him because they thought that something was They're like, look,
he's driving on the wrong side expressway.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Something's gonna happen. Then they'll be able to be there.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
They weren't a doctor to nurse. They were farmers. Oh okay,
there were farmers from all over across the river in Indiana.
But they were also school bus drivers. Oh, and they
were the first ones that saw him going the wrong
way northbound in the southbound lanes like two point three
tenths miles prior to the impact site, and they followed him,
(05:31):
you know, parallel. Of course, they are helpless because you
know what could you do obviously nothing, And there was
oncoming traffic, a lot of traffic that that night, ten
fifty five pm on a Saturday night, and cars were
swerving to avoid him, trucks, he was going between semis everything,
and then they saw the impact.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
So this is for cell phones.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Those people that were run off the expressway, they can't
call nine one one and say somebody's driving on the
wrong side.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
There were thirty seven years ago, and we probably a
lot of people weren't alive. There weren't cell phones, there
weren't laptops, there weren't computers. There's an early newspaper article
about it that talked about one of the first responders
had a portable telephone that was the size of a
shoe box, if you remember Thomber and how revolutionary that
(06:19):
seemed to be.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
But yeah, yeah, so they witnessed the explosion he and
he explained that if he's six inches to the left,
he koreeen's off. If he's six inches to the right,
the bus just demolished his truck. So it had to
hit precisely at the at where it did.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Because you wonder, I figure what the school bus weighed,
thirty thousand pounds say, and the toilet to pick up
trucks maybe twenty five right, And that bus is built,
which had to learn how school buses are built on
two I frames or two I beams. And you wonder
why that bus just didn't run over the smaller pickup right,
(06:59):
But like you said, it's six inches made all the
difference because it wasn't head on, it was right front
to right front, which enabled him to eat twelve feet
down the right side of the bus and knock the
axle off the bus, which weighed twelve hundred pounds, the
front axle on the school bus, and that least spring
assembly is what punctured the gas tank. And then you
(07:22):
had the explosion, the explosion in the fire because the people,
the Armstrongs I think were their names, they thought he
hit a gasoline tanker truck when they saw the fireball
roll back up over the thing, I bet, and they
stopped and they were the first people to start getting kids.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Off the triage kind of thing, yeah, pulling them off.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
They were. They were stacked like cordwood trying to get
out that back door because that was the only exit
at that time. Now, with this exception, there was one,
there were four.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Adults and a teacher got out.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
No, a chaperone, a woman's chaperon. And if you remember
those old school bus is where the windows just came.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Down, Yeah, you had to pinch it right.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
And it came down about halfway right. She was sitting
right behind the driver and she got out through that window.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
No way.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Now, did you tell me that she had to move
because people did? People there people accusing her of abandoning
the kids.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know about the moving part, but
I know they blamed because they said, my kids died
and you got out. But it was survival of the fittest.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
The parents were going through a lot. I can get it,
we get it.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
You can't imagine.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Now, there's a photo I saw on Friday, I think
the anniversary was Friday.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
They there's his truck.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Is to the right and it's just the front right
side that's destroyed. He was sitting in the truck and
they said there was a twelve open, twelve pack of
beer and they were still cold sitting there.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Oh yeah, well he was slumped over. He wasn't seat
belted in to begin with. And you talk about God
protects drunks sometimes, Okay, so he was laying totally over
on his right and the cab kind of folded around him,
and the first responder that we had that went in
to try to get him out, because at that time
(09:08):
you don't know what you have, right, they reach around
to try to get a board on him and they
feel the cold twelve pack I think it was bud light,
is what it was. And there were nine beer can
still cold full, and there was a couple empties, and
then there was one half empty that was still cold.
(09:28):
And you're not gonna believe this, Tony, but they scoured
the countryside to find the establishment that sold him that
last twelve pack of beer and could never find it.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Confirm this story that there were people protesting the prosecution.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Oh, absolutely absolutely there were because back then the mindset
and I've got to say this because my ears perked
up one night last week one of our reporters on
a local TV station who's covering the tragic situation in Bardstown, Okay,
talked about, Yeah, this is the biggest criminal case in
the history of the Commonwealth, something to that effect. It's
(10:06):
kind of for my ears up. And you can't compare
one Burder case to another, and when one life is
the same as valuable as the next. But and history
will be the judge of this. But this thing had
national implication because it was the first worst really drunk
driving tragedy into the nation's history. And somebody sent me
(10:27):
a copy of the San Francisco Examiner that had a
full colored picture on the front page of the crash
of him, no, of Mahony testifying in the trial. Right, okay,
but back then, the whole idea about DUIs and drunk driving.
You know, it was an accident. They didn't mean it.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
He's this good old boy, had a cople beers and
that you shouldn't prosecute.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
And every time we go to Carrollton there would be
a group of twenty twenty five protesters out in front
with signs, we love you, Larry, We're behind you, Larry,
Larry did mean wow. So you can imagine that?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Can you imagine if you're the.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Parents of a deceased child and you live in e
town and you're coming up here for trial. What kind
of fair shake are we going to get?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Why did the defense call each of the surviving kids
to the stand.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
We did, Oh you did, I'm sorry?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
No, no, we put them well they're victims. Yeah, number one.
And if you think, you know I had prior to that,
I had handled murder cases with two victims or three victims,
but I never had twenty seven before. Yah. And I
think that we started in October and finished like two
days before Christmas. What you used to tell Baby used
to tell baby prosecutors don't ever try a case of Christmas.
(11:42):
You know, the jingle bells, and you can't get a
jury in that frame of mind. But it's like, how
were we going to have this jury? Remember all who all
these people were, and we had to prove the deaths
and we had sixteen kids with assault one injuries which
is serious physically, the burns, the burn kids, the smoke
(12:03):
in relation kids, and the end result, he actually got
more time penalty wise for hurting kids that he did
for killing kids because the jury had lesser included instructions
and they could not bring themselves to say murder.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
The investigation invest and they convicted of manslaughin the investigation.
The Kroger trucks was a big deal because they you
didn't have freezers. I know this is really for people
who are listening, this is a topic that can be disturbing,
and I apologize, but I think the story needs to
be told. Uh, you didn't have enough. So Kroger said,
we'll send our trucks. But they didn't realize National News
(12:42):
is there every single day.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And the truck that was the days of satellite trucks
right in the line in the highway.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So Kroger kind of said, oh, did we make a mistake,
but they they didn't want the negative, like we're putting bodies,
burned bodies into a Kroger freezer truck.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
And then they thought that but again it didn't come
out to that.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, it wasn't Kroger, it was it was you know,
obviously the media is shooting, you know, scenes because they
where are we going to handle these kids? And you know,
we removed the trucks, you know, to the National Guard
armory and the grain so we could process the kids
and trying to figure out who's who. And uh, you know,
there was a there's a manifest, uh you know as
(13:22):
a church group and there's a manifest, but what happens
is the manifest burns up on the bus as far
as the listing of so everything you can think of
uh is going wrong. But one of the state police
officers noticed the film crew shooting and the Kroger logo
on the side of the truck, and he just went
up to him and and thank the media people were
(13:43):
just super they really were. Uh he said, you know, hey,
they're doing us a favor, you know, by loaning these
two us because we really need them. And that's like,
that's that's not gonna be a good look, you know,
on the evening news. And and thank goodness, the meeting people.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
They never showed it at the as a prosecute. How
many days were you at the crash site? For how
many days?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I was never at the crash site because by the
time I got involved, you know, they were pretty much
around the clock for a week or so, and when
my involvement became, they had pretty much already done that.
But they had they videotaped everything, and of course it
was stuff that you could never show.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
You did say that there was one girl, little girl,
that her face was against someone so everyone was burnt
beyond recognition obviously. Well, when they peeled her off, her
face was completely Yeah, there.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Was Of the twenty seven deceased, there was only one
that you could visibly identify. And it was a young
young girl and that was because another kid was laying
on top of her and it protected that much of
her face from from burning. Oh and you asked earlier
about the kids about calling them because we had a
bus driagram, you know, you got eleven rows of seats,
(14:56):
three on each side, you know, for the sixty six
plus the the driver. So we had to place those
kids in seats. So the surviving kids, we would bring
them to the stand and of course they testify about that
day and what they did and everything. But then we
said where were you sitting? And we had pictures like
the Great School Pictures. Yeah, I didn't use the Christmas
(15:18):
pictures with the puppy, you know, I try to hold
back on the sentimental stuff, but the Great School pictures
and where were you sitting? And the little boy or
girl would say I was in the middle row with
the third row, and then a trooper would go up
and put that picture on the seat. And so this
process took a while. And then who was sitting next
to you? Because we had to see the deceased kids too,
(15:40):
who was where? Well, Terry was in front of me
and he was in next to the window in the
row too, and then we put Terry's picture up and
we'd identified Terry and that type of thing. And then
finally at the end of this process, here's this big
board poster board with a school bus with all these pictures.
And that was the picture that made the San Francisco
(16:03):
Examiner because I left it up there again for the
jury to see and remind her mind remind. And when
Larry Mahoney took the witness stand, his attorneys didn't pick
up on that and didn't remove it, and he was
sitting the witness stand right next to all the people
that he killed and maimed, which you know, I'm not
(16:24):
an actor from Hollywood or anything, but I thought that was.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
A nice What are your thoughts on him? On Maloney
Mahoney money Sorry.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Uh, well, it's interesting because we did a two three
weeks of individual vordire back in a little ante room
off the courtroom judge. He had three lawyers as me
and Ray Herman's stay police lieutenant. Uh country boy, you know,
just a good old country boy. Obviously, I don't think
(16:55):
he meant it. It's funny because he's real quiet. He
never said much, you know, through the whole trial. He
just stared down at the floor. He never looked up
in any of the kids or never any reaction. And there
was a couple of times where we take a break.
I mean, you can't. Can you imagine going through three
hundred people, one at a time asking the same questions
(17:17):
over and over again about if you formed an opinion,
you know, do you know this and whatever. There was
a couple of times I had pretty bad headaches, tension, whatever.
Everybody leave the room to just be mahoney, and I
I thought, well, we can still this, you know, real
quick like that. But just just a good old country
(17:38):
boy that really messed up, really messed up. And I
thought he made bond. There was a point in time
where they put together farms and it maybe a half
million dollars worth or whatever, but he made bond, and
I thought, you know, this guy might take himself out right,
you know, if you had that, But obviously didn't.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Somebody asked me the other day about parole. He never
went for the pro board. He did a total serve
out of his time, and when he walked out the door,
he might have figured there's no way they're going to
proll me. Anyway, and you know, if you get out
on parole, they've still got a handle over you for
a while. And he sided him my serve out and
everything I could tell from when he was in the penitentiary,
(18:19):
I think he didn't mess up. You know, got pretty
good marks. I guess he got his old job back.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
How did the kids handle the interview? The survivors that
handled the being on, you know, be an interviewed by
you guys and asking questions in the defense, asking questions,
I know that you tell the story about a little
girl that, yeah, they asked him. Did he tell you
what you finished?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
That? Okay? Well what we did? You know, these kids
from Etown, Harden County and North Hardin High School was super.
They cooperated with us, and they had a home economics
classroom set up down there in the school, which is
almost like a living room, kitchen net and they let
us use that and we'd go down there. We'd work here.
(19:04):
We had an office down down the street here, the
State Police and I and we'd worked there every day
and then about three in the afternoon, we'd jump in
our cars and we'd drive down them North Hardin High
School from like three point thirty to seven or eight
and try to knock out several families a night. And
we did that for weeks, you know, to meet with
the kids, talk about the situation, go over what they remembered,
(19:27):
you know, what testimony was going to be, what they
could say, what they couldn't say. And then one thing
we did is prior to the trial, State Police had
a bus, like big old gray hand bus, like a
tour bus, and we took all the kids up to Carrollton.
Because you imagine, you know, people walk in your radio station,
they might be spooked out by the lights and that's
nothing to you, you know, or an operating room, but
(19:50):
a courtroom can be intimidating. And especially we had kids
you know, eight or ten, all the way up to
nineteen you know that survived. So we took them up there.
We got a pizza and pop and soft drinks and everything,
and let them walk in the courtroom, see where I
would be standing, where the jury would be standing, Go
sit in a witness chair, just go through a couple
(20:13):
So it's familiarizing.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I think what you're describing as a process that we
can we don't think of these things. That's why you're
good at what you do and you do this. But
he asked her, well, did he tell you what? Did
he tell you what to say?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah? And they and for the vast majority, they didn't
mess with the kids at all. I mean, what are
you going to say to the kids? You know what
they remembered and were still use their friends. But uh,
for some reason, and and I really respected the defense
attorney Bill Summers credible national reputation. But for some reason,
this little sweet little girl came in and he just
(20:49):
got up and said, is there any reason why you
didn't look at my client or look at mister Mahomy
kimm You know, did you meet with the process And
a lot of times they'll try to defense turns will
try to pry as a witness by have you met
with the prosecutor before to day? You know, try to
insinuate that we cooked this story up, and honestly be
malpractice if I put you on a witness stand and
(21:09):
we didn't talk about what you saw or what you
did or whatever. And she said, yeah, yeah, I met
with him several times. Here did he tell you what
to say? He told me to tell the truth. And
just so that little girl just decimated.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You get a little we gotta go to break. But
you get a little emotional when you tell that story.
I saw you break a little bit there, that that
one that little girl got you.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Well, a lot of them did, a lot of them did.
Uh yeah, because I can't tell you how many living
rooms I sat in and looked at bedrooms that were
the same, that hadn't been touched from the day when
those kids left for that bus. Uh, looked through family albums.
I mean to lose a child, especially that way, especially
(21:54):
that way, you know, I mean burying your kids. And
then I thought that Thursday was the anniversary of the fourteenth.
But pretty much all of them, if not most of them,
are buried down there in Radcliffe, and a lot of
those families have moved away.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Paul, we're gonna go a little bit longer, said, okay,
so we're gonna take a break here. We'll come back
right after this. On News Radio eight forty WHS. Welcome
back news Radio eight forty WHA. Yes, Tony and Dwightcholl
brought you by the Kentucky Offensive Highway Safety. Please slow down,
put your phone down, don't drink and drive for sure,
and we're reinforcing that concept with the conversation we're having
right now with Paul Ridgewalski, the prosecutor of the Carrollton
(22:31):
bus crash, which was last week the anniversary, and the
dominoes that fell after that. And it's the way Paul
you've described this prosecution of I never knew the details
and what you guys did, because it seems like from
the novice, obviously people like myself to think this is
a slam dunk. It was not.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
No, no, it wasn't and there never is. And you know,
when you think back, learned years and years ago, you
do not win cases in the courtroom. You win him
in your preparation and hopefully it all comes together. And
then you think back to the listeners that can remember
the Kennedy situation and Jack Ruby assassination. Mellis and many
(23:16):
people saw that on TV on Sunday morning, and yet
he still had a trial.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Is there a heaviness? Look, most some trials are. Was
there a heaviness with everybody? The judge, the defendant, you said,
the defense lawyer was nationally known, what was his name,
Bill Sommers, Bill Sommers, So, and you knew him, you
liked him, But well they had I.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Didn't like him a trial. I didn't like him very much.
And he had two other lawyers with him, another lawyer
from Lexington. There were three of them, and so they
had a big They had three defense attorneys, an investigator
in Mahoney. So there's five on the other side of
the courtroom, right, and then there's just Ray Herman and
I at the table on this. The two of you,
which acount of might look like we're the underdogs.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Well did you?
Speaker 1 (24:01):
You're not going to say that because you all's your
point was those kids. But the pressure on you to
get a conviction, I'm sure kept you up. And you're
working twenty hour days as it is.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. We didn't stop and I
had to pull it together. And like I said, there
was myself and the state police detective Tony Moffatt Sonny
Cease was a lead investigator or the traffic reconstructionist, and
then Ray Herman, So there was a team of four
of us. And then like I had assistance from my
(24:36):
people in the AG's office. Had to move my secretary
to General Butler State Park and live up there with
us for the fault wow, get witnesses and whatever.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
We just spent twenty seven minutes on some of the
horrible parts. So anything good come out of all this?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Well, bus safety, bus safety, you talked about nothing. As
people would say, what'd you try? Why don't you go
to trial? I had a woman years ago who was
a friend of mine, a friend of mine's mom or
Thanksgiving day gathering, and I was introduced to this lady
(25:19):
and she was, you know, older lady, and they this
is Paul. And if you remember the bus crash, Paul
was the prosecutor. She just looked at me and said, well, hell,
a monkey could have won that trial. Like what talking
he's drunk going right away? You know, what's here to
talk about? But the defense attorney. They attacked the school bus.
(25:40):
They attacked the safety of the school bus.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
They didn't have much.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
They attacked the highway. If you remember, and you've been
up there, super elevated.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
You come up.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And that was part of the problem that we re
enacted the crash short of hitting each other with a
school bus in the truck and determine that John Perriman
and the driver had about one point three or one
point four seconds to try to avoid no way and
(26:10):
on those school buses, it takes one point two seconds
to bleed the air out of the air brakes. So
that's he was just trying to get off the road
and he was in the passing lane and that's why
he had the right front, the right front where they collided.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Again, mad mothers for that came out of this, which
we we all they member the bumper stickers. And I
can't I can't remember the Louisville mom. It was a
Louisville mom that came up with it, but that all
came after that. And it's and I just was talking.
Terry Miners was in here with us, and and I said,
my kids, Uh, they joke about drinking and driving as
(26:46):
it's or saying drinking and driving as ironically they use
it as a joke because they don't drink and drive.
They it's we've done such good work, we really have
with with the kids of they they think it's absolutely
nuts to drink any alcohol and get in a car.
They just don't do it. And thinking of when I
was at my kid's age and now to think the
(27:07):
different mindset is completely flipped now again you and I
think the nineties was about five years ago, it's been
forty years, so we get it. It's been forty years.
But it good work everybody with that whole situation.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
But unfortunately we still have them.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, and good people make bad decisions all day long.
You know that as a prosecutor. But let's get to
something real quick, and again we're talking to Paul Ridge Watski.
He is the prosecutor who was the prosecutor on the
Carlton bus crash, and the details are just crazy. If
you want to listen to the podcast later, it's in
the first of the eleven o'clock hours, so just listening
to the twenty seven minutes week. Literally, you and I
(27:41):
could go for hours talking about it. But let's talk
about football real quick. You are a ref for high
school football. How many years you have been doing that?
Ten nineteen years? You're a pretty good ref. You didn't
have to throw a flag on me at any time.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
No, No, you were great. Right.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Well, I wish all the coaches were like, well, I
see I do the opposite. I was always kiss up,
maybe I'll get a call. It doesn't work. Yelling doesn't
get your call, so it really just be polite. But
coaches and players are a little different these days. They
could be difficult.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
They are, and there's a nation wide shortage of officials
for all sports, you know, across the continuum, but particularly
we're interested in football. You know, when I started those
many years ago, there were one hundred and forty, one
hundred and fifty of us, and I think now we're
under ninety.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Well, well that's why we moved some games to Thursday
night or Saturday.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Night to get them all in.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
To get them all in.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
And we've had sometimes, Tony, we've had to reach out
to Lexington Town and northern Kentucky to come down because
we cover six counties, to come down and help us
works in our schools.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I do remember one story.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
All of our friends, I won't name their names or
the school, but they knew and they talked before the
end of the football game and they were like it
was a high school in wolver Jeffson County, and they
that they all said, look, we we will all get
in one car, get in my wife from my car.
We're gonna get in the car and take off. We'll
come back and get your two cars. Because they were
threats coming from the stands and you and they they
(29:11):
you know, that takes a lot for three reps to
do it a lot of time, or like just run
to my car, we'll go.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
And that's what they did.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
They the game ended and they ran off the field
through the fence to one of their guys cars and
took off.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
That shouldn't right, And that's part of the deal with
what we've had to do is insist on security. Now
most high schools have it, but even at the lower levels,
at the middle schools, at the little league level where
we've had incidents with verbal, you know, nothing really physical
yet it's come to that. But insists that they have
(29:47):
uniformed law enforcement there because of that, and that's why
we're having a problem attracting people because of the parents
and the coaches and parents are different today, kids are diseasing.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah, look we we you know, we processed challenges. Wait
different than the younger generation. But encourage right now, encourage
anybody to sign I mean, how do they do that?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Well, there'll be some meetings coming up in June. Anybody
interested can go on KFOA Kentucky Football Officials Association uh
KFOA dot org. I believe is the site and we
should have some business cards maybe coming out that we
can give out to people and we'll be recruiting out
at picnics and bats games and stuff like that. But
(30:26):
anybody that's interested, it's a great advocation. Stay in shape,
make a little money on the side. If you love
the game of football, stay involved with the field and
working with these kids because the vast majority.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Are good kids.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
They are and the kids that are down there at
Shawnee and Atherton and Valley, they're working just as hard
as they are on popular level.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Heat's the same and guarantee it and everything else guarantee.
So what's the website? They should go kfoa dot orgy.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Uh your gym, dude. I love you, Paul Rajwawski. You
know that we're good friends. Yeah yeah, well you know
what he would. He's gonna be mad because he missed
this interview. I guarantee that's right. All right, We're gonna
take a short break and come back and wrap up
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wrap up the show just two three minutes away. Just
sit tight right here on news radio eight forty wa chance.
(32:01):
I know the conversation we just had with Paul Rodzwaalski
can be heavy. What I think sometimes we need to
hear the details of the Carrollton bus crash, and we
have him on every couple of years to remind us
how horrible that is and how these things can happen.
John that I'm sure that's the first time you've heard
Paul tell.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
The Styes, yeah, it's one of those things where, of
course you you never imagine to be in any sort
of disastrous situation, especially like that. And then you think
about people who have kids, and as someone who's now
a father, you know of my own and you'll think
about having my own daughter and having a situation like
that if that were to happen, I can't imagine how
I would feel as a parent in that situation. And
(32:39):
for for Paul to be able to really handle everything
the way that he did, I think it really just
kind of goes to show his character and all this.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And in the how the details, in the hours and
the prosecution and again you know, he gets emotional when
he you know, hears that little girl. Yeah, you know,
testimony is it's still, to this day is the worst
bus crash in American history. It's crazy that that's still
a stat but it was just and like I said
before the story, I said, there's you know, in tragedy,
(33:10):
there's always ten or eleven things that have to happen
in order at precise time for the tragedy to happen,
and that one has at least ten, you know, from
them filling up the gas, to his friends letting him
drive after they try to take his keys. Just one
thing after another led to that tragedy. And we have
to remember because we have to stop drinking and driving
and doing that and make sure we're safe.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
And I've got to say one of the anytime I
make that drive on the Interstate and get to Carrollton,
it's impossible if you're familiar with that scene and what happened,
it's impossible to not get a queasy feeling when you're
driving past that side of the bus crash.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
All right, thank you, John Alton. We'll be back tomorrow, Dwight,
it'll still be out. Don't forget to go to klin
clydelock dot com if you need a commercial door one
or one hundred.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
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Speaker 1 (33:55):
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You've got to take care of that, take care of
your merchandise, take care of the people that work for you.
They are clinlock dot com, free estimates and twenty four
hour service. Let's see if the thieves can get through
that commercial door. All right, clinlock dot com. We'll see
(34:15):
you tomorrow on NewsRadio eight forty w h A. S.
All right, welcome now our number three of the Tony
(00:01):
and Dwight Chow, brought to you by the Kentucky Office of
Highway Safety. Please buckle up, put the phone down, drive
the speed limit. I did not speed to Purdue and
back this weekend because the little thing that tells me
what time I'm pulling in, if I'm driving eighty two
or seventy two, I pull in at the exact same
time that that thing tells me that I'm doing. It
(00:23):
doesn't save you anytime. Slow your car down and just
chill out. The older you get, you'll be stopping at
more rest stops. That's what we do, all right. Our
number three has got a special guest. Paul Ridgewalski is
a very good friend of mine. You know, if you
said younger Tony Venetti would have good friends that were
prosecutors in Jeffson County, it probably would be well, they're
mentoring you, Tony. But Paul, for again, say I just
(00:46):
forgot forty how many years as a prosecutor?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Got forty eight, forty eight?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
You've seen it all.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
How old were you when you caught the Carlton bus crash?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well thirty seven years ago, mid.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Thirties, mid thirties.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Now you you got that case because the prosecutor in
Carrollton had a heart attack.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Correct, Yeah, John Ackman was his name and family history
young Man. Young Man. I mean, I think he was
in his forties. He dealt with the first couple of
days of it, obviously, with the kids in the bus,
with everything they did investigative wise, and then I think
within a day or two, had a major heart attack.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
What's that phone call like when you catch.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
That, Well, it's sobering, it's sobering, not doing play onwards.
But the Captain Neil Britton from the Kentucky State Police,
who was in charge of the investigation.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Well, that's another thing. It's multi level, it's local, state
and feeds.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh yeah, you know. He reached out to the Attorney
General's office going, you know, we just lost our prosecutor.
We need help direction, you know, putting this thing together
because it's a criminal case. Obviously the drunk driver survived,
so there's a prosecution involved. And it's funny because I
was here in Louisville at the time. I was working
(02:10):
on the Attorney General's office, but I was here in
Louisville doing a bar prosecution, which at the time we
did for the Kentucky Bar Association, right, prosecuted lawyers for
ethical violations, right. And I think I was right here
at the Brown Hotel and there weren't any cell phones,
you know. So somebody comes in, hands your pink slip
and says call your office. And so you call the
office and talk to the boss and they go, you know,
(02:34):
such actman's out. They need a prosecutor, call this number.
Get your butt to Carleton or get your butt to
the grange.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So okay, So there's some details that you shared with
us out a little was about seven or eight years ago.
I think we did an hour and a half because
it was so fascinating. I think we had earmarked like
twenty minutes, and then it was so fascinating we went
and we did an hour and a half with you,
and some things jumped out at me that I tell
I retail people that don't know about the case. One
(03:01):
of them is where it started, which was you described
his two friends. There was three of them. There were
two friends that tried to take his keys.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Correct. Obviously, what you do in a case like that
is you go back and try to piece together the
previous twenty four hours, which Kentucky State Police did a
terrific job of doing. And we accounted wrong with the
last twenty minutes, obviously. But he bounced around with different places,
drinking all day. But he ended up at a campground
(03:32):
in rural Owen County, Carroll County, on the line and
is but I think you know he blew a point
two four three times I legal limit.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
And even these old boys and if you could see him, Tony,
and if we could have him here in the studio
right now, they'd be right out of central casting for
you know, good old time country boys. But even they
knew he didn't even be driving, and they got the
keys away from him, and he finally, I guess he
didn't live far from there, and it was campground Rocky
(04:05):
Road after the highway, and finally he said, I'm going
to go home, give me my keys, and they gave
them back to them, and they watched.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
That was number one.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
They watched the table.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
What you're going to hear is there when tragedies happened.
Twelve things have to happen in order they give him
his keys back and they watch his tail lights go
up that road.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Gravel road out to the black top to the main highway,
and he should have turned right to get back to
his trailer, and he turned left, and then twenty minutes later.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
He ends up on the expressway.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, on the interstate.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
And some of the things that you've described that happened
in order was the bus had stopped and filled up, correct,
right right before that. So again the timing is all
adding up for this tragedy. There was also a doctor
and a nurse, a merry couple. Correct that we're driving
on the right side of the expressway and we're f
(05:00):
following him because they thought that something was They're like, look,
he's driving on the wrong side expressway.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Something's gonna happen. Then they'll be able to be there.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
They weren't a doctor to nurse. They were farmers. Oh okay,
there were farmers from all over across the river in Indiana.
But they were also school bus drivers. Oh, and they
were the first ones that saw him going the wrong
way northbound in the southbound lanes like two point three
tenths miles prior to the impact site, and they followed him,
(05:31):
you know, parallel. Of course, they are helpless because you
know what could you do obviously nothing, And there was
oncoming traffic, a lot of traffic that that night, ten
fifty five pm on a Saturday night, and cars were
swerving to avoid him, trucks, he was going between semis everything,
and then they saw the impact.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
So this is for cell phones.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Those people that were run off the expressway, they can't
call nine one one and say somebody's driving on the
wrong side.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
There were thirty seven years ago, and we probably a
lot of people weren't alive. There weren't cell phones, there
weren't laptops, there weren't computers. There's an early newspaper article
about it that talked about one of the first responders
had a portable telephone that was the size of a
shoe box, if you remember Thomber and how revolutionary that
(06:19):
seemed to be.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
But yeah, yeah, so they witnessed the explosion he and
he explained that if he's six inches to the left,
he koreeen's off. If he's six inches to the right,
the bus just demolished his truck. So it had to
hit precisely at the at where it did.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Because you wonder, I figure what the school bus weighed,
thirty thousand pounds say, and the toilet to pick up
trucks maybe twenty five right, And that bus is built,
which had to learn how school buses are built on
two I frames or two I beams. And you wonder
why that bus just didn't run over the smaller pickup right,
(06:59):
But like you said, it's six inches made all the
difference because it wasn't head on, it was right front
to right front, which enabled him to eat twelve feet
down the right side of the bus and knock the
axle off the bus, which weighed twelve hundred pounds, the
front axle on the school bus, and that least spring
assembly is what punctured the gas tank. And then you
(07:22):
had the explosion, the explosion in the fire because the people,
the Armstrongs I think were their names, they thought he
hit a gasoline tanker truck when they saw the fireball
roll back up over the thing, I bet, and they
stopped and they were the first people to start getting kids.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Off the triage kind of thing, yeah, pulling them off.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
They were. They were stacked like cordwood trying to get
out that back door because that was the only exit
at that time. Now, with this exception, there was one,
there were four.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Adults and a teacher got out.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
No, a chaperone, a woman's chaperon. And if you remember
those old school bus is where the windows just came.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Down, Yeah, you had to pinch it right.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
And it came down about halfway right. She was sitting
right behind the driver and she got out through that window.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
No way.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Now, did you tell me that she had to move
because people did? People there people accusing her of abandoning
the kids.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know about the moving part, but
I know they blamed because they said, my kids died
and you got out. But it was survival of the fittest.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
The parents were going through a lot. I can get it,
we get it.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
You can't imagine.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Now, there's a photo I saw on Friday, I think
the anniversary was Friday.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
They there's his truck.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Is to the right and it's just the front right
side that's destroyed. He was sitting in the truck and
they said there was a twelve open, twelve pack of
beer and they were still cold sitting there.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Oh yeah, well he was slumped over. He wasn't seat
belted in to begin with. And you talk about God
protects drunks sometimes, Okay, so he was laying totally over
on his right and the cab kind of folded around him,
and the first responder that we had that went in
to try to get him out, because at that time
(09:08):
you don't know what you have, right, they reach around
to try to get a board on him and they
feel the cold twelve pack I think it was bud light,
is what it was. And there were nine beer can
still cold full, and there was a couple empties, and
then there was one half empty that was still cold.
(09:28):
And you're not gonna believe this, Tony, but they scoured
the countryside to find the establishment that sold him that
last twelve pack of beer and could never find it.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Confirm this story that there were people protesting the prosecution.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Oh, absolutely absolutely there were because back then the mindset
and I've got to say this because my ears perked
up one night last week one of our reporters on
a local TV station who's covering the tragic situation in Bardstown, Okay,
talked about, Yeah, this is the biggest criminal case in
the history of the Commonwealth, something to that effect. It's
(10:06):
kind of for my ears up. And you can't compare
one Burder case to another, and when one life is
the same as valuable as the next. But and history
will be the judge of this. But this thing had
national implication because it was the first worst really drunk
driving tragedy into the nation's history. And somebody sent me
(10:27):
a copy of the San Francisco Examiner that had a
full colored picture on the front page of the crash
of him, no, of Mahony testifying in the trial. Right, okay,
but back then, the whole idea about DUIs and drunk driving.
You know, it was an accident. They didn't mean it.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
He's this good old boy, had a cople beers and
that you shouldn't prosecute.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
And every time we go to Carrollton there would be
a group of twenty twenty five protesters out in front
with signs, we love you, Larry, We're behind you, Larry,
Larry did mean wow. So you can imagine that?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Can you imagine if you're the.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Parents of a deceased child and you live in e
town and you're coming up here for trial. What kind
of fair shake are we going to get?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Why did the defense call each of the surviving kids
to the stand.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
We did, Oh you did, I'm sorry?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
No, no, we put them well they're victims. Yeah, number one.
And if you think, you know I had prior to that,
I had handled murder cases with two victims or three victims,
but I never had twenty seven before. Yah. And I
think that we started in October and finished like two
days before Christmas. What you used to tell Baby used
to tell baby prosecutors don't ever try a case of Christmas.
(11:42):
You know, the jingle bells, and you can't get a
jury in that frame of mind. But it's like, how
were we going to have this jury? Remember all who all
these people were, and we had to prove the deaths
and we had sixteen kids with assault one injuries which
is serious physically, the burns, the burn kids, the smoke
(12:03):
in relation kids, and the end result, he actually got
more time penalty wise for hurting kids that he did
for killing kids because the jury had lesser included instructions
and they could not bring themselves to say murder.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
The investigation invest and they convicted of manslaughin the investigation.
The Kroger trucks was a big deal because they you
didn't have freezers. I know this is really for people
who are listening, this is a topic that can be disturbing,
and I apologize, but I think the story needs to
be told. Uh, you didn't have enough. So Kroger said,
we'll send our trucks. But they didn't realize National News
(12:42):
is there every single day.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And the truck that was the days of satellite trucks
right in the line in the highway.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So Kroger kind of said, oh, did we make a mistake,
but they they didn't want the negative, like we're putting bodies,
burned bodies into a Kroger freezer truck.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
And then they thought that but again it didn't come
out to that.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, it wasn't Kroger, it was it was you know,
obviously the media is shooting, you know, scenes because they
where are we going to handle these kids? And you know,
we removed the trucks, you know, to the National Guard
armory and the grain so we could process the kids
and trying to figure out who's who. And uh, you know,
there was a there's a manifest, uh you know as
(13:22):
a church group and there's a manifest, but what happens
is the manifest burns up on the bus as far
as the listing of so everything you can think of
uh is going wrong. But one of the state police
officers noticed the film crew shooting and the Kroger logo
on the side of the truck, and he just went
up to him and and thank the media people were
(13:43):
just super they really were. Uh he said, you know, hey,
they're doing us a favor, you know, by loaning these
two us because we really need them. And that's like,
that's that's not gonna be a good look, you know,
on the evening news. And and thank goodness, the meeting people.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
They never showed it at the as a prosecute. How
many days were you at the crash site? For how
many days?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I was never at the crash site because by the
time I got involved, you know, they were pretty much
around the clock for a week or so, and when
my involvement became, they had pretty much already done that.
But they had they videotaped everything, and of course it
was stuff that you could never show.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
You did say that there was one girl, little girl,
that her face was against someone so everyone was burnt
beyond recognition obviously. Well, when they peeled her off, her
face was completely Yeah, there.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Was Of the twenty seven deceased, there was only one
that you could visibly identify. And it was a young
young girl and that was because another kid was laying
on top of her and it protected that much of
her face from from burning. Oh and you asked earlier
about the kids about calling them because we had a
bus driagram, you know, you got eleven rows of seats,
(14:56):
three on each side, you know, for the sixty six
plus the the driver. So we had to place those
kids in seats. So the surviving kids, we would bring
them to the stand and of course they testify about that
day and what they did and everything. But then we
said where were you sitting? And we had pictures like
the Great School Pictures. Yeah, I didn't use the Christmas
(15:18):
pictures with the puppy, you know, I try to hold
back on the sentimental stuff, but the Great School pictures
and where were you sitting? And the little boy or
girl would say I was in the middle row with
the third row, and then a trooper would go up
and put that picture on the seat. And so this
process took a while. And then who was sitting next
to you? Because we had to see the deceased kids too,
(15:40):
who was where? Well, Terry was in front of me
and he was in next to the window in the
row too, and then we put Terry's picture up and
we'd identified Terry and that type of thing. And then
finally at the end of this process, here's this big
board poster board with a school bus with all these pictures.
And that was the picture that made the San Francisco
(16:03):
Examiner because I left it up there again for the
jury to see and remind her mind remind. And when
Larry Mahoney took the witness stand, his attorneys didn't pick
up on that and didn't remove it, and he was
sitting the witness stand right next to all the people
that he killed and maimed, which you know, I'm not
(16:24):
an actor from Hollywood or anything, but I thought that was.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
A nice What are your thoughts on him? On Maloney
Mahoney money Sorry.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Uh, well, it's interesting because we did a two three
weeks of individual vordire back in a little ante room
off the courtroom judge. He had three lawyers as me
and Ray Herman's stay police lieutenant. Uh country boy, you know,
just a good old country boy. Obviously, I don't think
(16:55):
he meant it. It's funny because he's real quiet. He
never said much, you know, through the whole trial. He
just stared down at the floor. He never looked up
in any of the kids or never any reaction. And there
was a couple of times where we take a break.
I mean, you can't. Can you imagine going through three
hundred people, one at a time asking the same questions
(17:17):
over and over again about if you formed an opinion,
you know, do you know this and whatever. There was
a couple of times I had pretty bad headaches, tension, whatever.
Everybody leave the room to just be mahoney, and I
I thought, well, we can still this, you know, real
quick like that. But just just a good old country
(17:38):
boy that really messed up, really messed up. And I
thought he made bond. There was a point in time
where they put together farms and it maybe a half
million dollars worth or whatever, but he made bond, and
I thought, you know, this guy might take himself out right,
you know, if you had that, But obviously didn't.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Somebody asked me the other day about parole. He never
went for the pro board. He did a total serve
out of his time, and when he walked out the door,
he might have figured there's no way they're going to
proll me. Anyway, and you know, if you get out
on parole, they've still got a handle over you for
a while. And he sided him my serve out and
everything I could tell from when he was in the penitentiary,
(18:19):
I think he didn't mess up. You know, got pretty
good marks. I guess he got his old job back.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
How did the kids handle the interview? The survivors that
handled the being on, you know, be an interviewed by
you guys and asking questions in the defense, asking questions,
I know that you tell the story about a little
girl that, yeah, they asked him. Did he tell you
what you finished?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
That? Okay? Well what we did? You know, these kids
from Etown, Harden County and North Hardin High School was super.
They cooperated with us, and they had a home economics
classroom set up down there in the school, which is
almost like a living room, kitchen net and they let
us use that and we'd go down there. We'd work here.
(19:04):
We had an office down down the street here, the
State Police and I and we'd worked there every day
and then about three in the afternoon, we'd jump in
our cars and we'd drive down them North Hardin High
School from like three point thirty to seven or eight
and try to knock out several families a night. And
we did that for weeks, you know, to meet with
the kids, talk about the situation, go over what they remembered,
(19:27):
you know, what testimony was going to be, what they
could say, what they couldn't say. And then one thing
we did is prior to the trial, State Police had
a bus, like big old gray hand bus, like a
tour bus, and we took all the kids up to Carrollton.
Because you imagine, you know, people walk in your radio station,
they might be spooked out by the lights and that's
nothing to you, you know, or an operating room, but
(19:50):
a courtroom can be intimidating. And especially we had kids
you know, eight or ten, all the way up to
nineteen you know that survived. So we took them up there.
We got a pizza and pop and soft drinks and everything,
and let them walk in the courtroom, see where I
would be standing, where the jury would be standing, Go
sit in a witness chair, just go through a couple
(20:13):
So it's familiarizing.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I think what you're describing as a process that we
can we don't think of these things. That's why you're
good at what you do and you do this. But
he asked her, well, did he tell you what? Did
he tell you what to say?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah? And they and for the vast majority, they didn't
mess with the kids at all. I mean, what are
you going to say to the kids? You know what
they remembered and were still use their friends. But uh,
for some reason, and and I really respected the defense
attorney Bill Summers credible national reputation. But for some reason,
this little sweet little girl came in and he just
(20:49):
got up and said, is there any reason why you
didn't look at my client or look at mister Mahomy
kimm You know, did you meet with the process And
a lot of times they'll try to defense turns will
try to pry as a witness by have you met
with the prosecutor before to day? You know, try to
insinuate that we cooked this story up, and honestly be
malpractice if I put you on a witness stand and
(21:09):
we didn't talk about what you saw or what you
did or whatever. And she said, yeah, yeah, I met
with him several times. Here did he tell you what
to say? He told me to tell the truth. And
just so that little girl just decimated.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
You get a little we gotta go to break. But
you get a little emotional when you tell that story.
I saw you break a little bit there, that that
one that little girl got you.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Well, a lot of them did, a lot of them did.
Uh yeah, because I can't tell you how many living
rooms I sat in and looked at bedrooms that were
the same, that hadn't been touched from the day when
those kids left for that bus. Uh, looked through family albums.
I mean to lose a child, especially that way, especially
(21:54):
that way, you know, I mean burying your kids. And
then I thought that Thursday was the anniversary of the fourteenth.
But pretty much all of them, if not most of them,
are buried down there in Radcliffe, and a lot of
those families have moved away.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Paul, we're gonna go a little bit longer, said, okay,
so we're gonna take a break here. We'll come back
right after this. On News Radio eight forty WHS. Welcome
back news Radio eight forty WHA. Yes, Tony and Dwightcholl
brought you by the Kentucky Offensive Highway Safety. Please slow down,
put your phone down, don't drink and drive for sure,
and we're reinforcing that concept with the conversation we're having
right now with Paul Ridgewalski, the prosecutor of the Carrollton
(22:31):
bus crash, which was last week the anniversary, and the
dominoes that fell after that. And it's the way Paul
you've described this prosecution of I never knew the details
and what you guys did, because it seems like from
the novice, obviously people like myself to think this is
a slam dunk. It was not.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
No, no, it wasn't and there never is. And you know,
when you think back, learned years and years ago, you
do not win cases in the courtroom. You win him
in your preparation and hopefully it all comes together. And
then you think back to the listeners that can remember
the Kennedy situation and Jack Ruby assassination. Mellis and many
(23:16):
people saw that on TV on Sunday morning, and yet
he still had a trial.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Is there a heaviness? Look, most some trials are. Was
there a heaviness with everybody? The judge, the defendant, you said,
the defense lawyer was nationally known, what was his name,
Bill Sommers, Bill Sommers, So, and you knew him, you
liked him, But well they had I.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Didn't like him a trial. I didn't like him very much.
And he had two other lawyers with him, another lawyer
from Lexington. There were three of them, and so they
had a big They had three defense attorneys, an investigator
in Mahoney. So there's five on the other side of
the courtroom, right, and then there's just Ray Herman and
I at the table on this. The two of you,
which acount of might look like we're the underdogs.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Well did you?
Speaker 1 (24:01):
You're not going to say that because you all's your
point was those kids. But the pressure on you to
get a conviction, I'm sure kept you up. And you're
working twenty hour days as it is.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. We didn't stop and I
had to pull it together. And like I said, there
was myself and the state police detective Tony Moffatt Sonny
Cease was a lead investigator or the traffic reconstructionist, and
then Ray Herman, So there was a team of four
of us. And then like I had assistance from my
(24:36):
people in the AG's office. Had to move my secretary
to General Butler State Park and live up there with
us for the fault wow, get witnesses and whatever.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
We just spent twenty seven minutes on some of the
horrible parts. So anything good come out of all this?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Well, bus safety, bus safety, you talked about nothing. As
people would say, what'd you try? Why don't you go
to trial? I had a woman years ago who was
a friend of mine, a friend of mine's mom or
Thanksgiving day gathering, and I was introduced to this lady
(25:19):
and she was, you know, older lady, and they this
is Paul. And if you remember the bus crash, Paul
was the prosecutor. She just looked at me and said, well, hell,
a monkey could have won that trial. Like what talking
he's drunk going right away? You know, what's here to
talk about? But the defense attorney. They attacked the school bus.
(25:40):
They attacked the safety of the school bus.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
They didn't have much.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
They attacked the highway. If you remember, and you've been
up there, super elevated.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
You come up.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And that was part of the problem that we re
enacted the crash short of hitting each other with a
school bus in the truck and determine that John Perriman
and the driver had about one point three or one
point four seconds to try to avoid no way and
(26:10):
on those school buses, it takes one point two seconds
to bleed the air out of the air brakes. So
that's he was just trying to get off the road
and he was in the passing lane and that's why
he had the right front, the right front where they collided.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Again, mad mothers for that came out of this, which
we we all they member the bumper stickers. And I
can't I can't remember the Louisville mom. It was a
Louisville mom that came up with it, but that all
came after that. And it's and I just was talking.
Terry Miners was in here with us, and and I said,
my kids, Uh, they joke about drinking and driving as
(26:46):
it's or saying drinking and driving as ironically they use
it as a joke because they don't drink and drive.
They it's we've done such good work, we really have
with with the kids of they they think it's absolutely
nuts to drink any alcohol and get in a car.
They just don't do it. And thinking of when I
was at my kid's age and now to think the
(27:07):
different mindset is completely flipped now again you and I
think the nineties was about five years ago, it's been
forty years, so we get it. It's been forty years.
But it good work everybody with that whole situation.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
But unfortunately we still have them.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, and good people make bad decisions all day long.
You know that as a prosecutor. But let's get to
something real quick, and again we're talking to Paul Ridge Watski.
He is the prosecutor who was the prosecutor on the
Carlton bus crash, and the details are just crazy. If
you want to listen to the podcast later, it's in
the first of the eleven o'clock hours, so just listening
to the twenty seven minutes week. Literally, you and I
(27:41):
could go for hours talking about it. But let's talk
about football real quick. You are a ref for high
school football. How many years you have been doing that?
Ten nineteen years? You're a pretty good ref. You didn't
have to throw a flag on me at any time.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
No, No, you were great. Right.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Well, I wish all the coaches were like, well, I
see I do the opposite. I was always kiss up,
maybe I'll get a call. It doesn't work. Yelling doesn't
get your call, so it really just be polite. But
coaches and players are a little different these days. They
could be difficult.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
They are, and there's a nation wide shortage of officials
for all sports, you know, across the continuum, but particularly
we're interested in football. You know, when I started those
many years ago, there were one hundred and forty, one
hundred and fifty of us, and I think now we're
under ninety.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Well, well that's why we moved some games to Thursday
night or Saturday.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Night to get them all in.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
To get them all in.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
And we've had sometimes, Tony, we've had to reach out
to Lexington Town and northern Kentucky to come down because
we cover six counties, to come down and help us
works in our schools.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I do remember one story.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
All of our friends, I won't name their names or
the school, but they knew and they talked before the
end of the football game and they were like it
was a high school in wolver Jeffson County, and they
that they all said, look, we we will all get
in one car, get in my wife from my car.
We're gonna get in the car and take off. We'll
come back and get your two cars. Because they were
threats coming from the stands and you and they they
(29:11):
you know, that takes a lot for three reps to
do it a lot of time, or like just run
to my car, we'll go.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
And that's what they did.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
They the game ended and they ran off the field
through the fence to one of their guys cars and
took off.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
That shouldn't right, And that's part of the deal with
what we've had to do is insist on security. Now
most high schools have it, but even at the lower levels,
at the middle schools, at the little league level where
we've had incidents with verbal, you know, nothing really physical
yet it's come to that. But insists that they have
(29:47):
uniformed law enforcement there because of that, and that's why
we're having a problem attracting people because of the parents
and the coaches and parents are different today, kids are diseasing.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah, look we we you know, we processed challenges. Wait
different than the younger generation. But encourage right now, encourage
anybody to sign I mean, how do they do that?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Well, there'll be some meetings coming up in June. Anybody
interested can go on KFOA Kentucky Football Officials Association uh
KFOA dot org. I believe is the site and we
should have some business cards maybe coming out that we
can give out to people and we'll be recruiting out
at picnics and bats games and stuff like that. But
(30:26):
anybody that's interested, it's a great advocation. Stay in shape,
make a little money on the side. If you love
the game of football, stay involved with the field and
working with these kids because the vast majority.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Are good kids.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
They are and the kids that are down there at
Shawnee and Atherton and Valley, they're working just as hard
as they are on popular level.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Heat's the same and guarantee it and everything else guarantee.
So what's the website? They should go kfoa dot orgy.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Uh your gym, dude. I love you, Paul Rajwawski. You
know that we're good friends. Yeah yeah, well you know
what he would. He's gonna be mad because he missed
this interview. I guarantee that's right. All right, We're gonna
take a short break and come back and wrap up
the show at Christian Brothers Roofing. Go to Christian Browroofing
dot com if you have some damage, but don't forget
(31:19):
about if you need a new car carriageforard dot com
right now. They have the a plan that means you
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wrap up the show just two three minutes away. Just
sit tight right here on news radio eight forty wa chance.
(32:01):
I know the conversation we just had with Paul Rodzwaalski
can be heavy. What I think sometimes we need to
hear the details of the Carrollton bus crash, and we
have him on every couple of years to remind us
how horrible that is and how these things can happen.
John that I'm sure that's the first time you've heard
Paul tell.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
The Styes, yeah, it's one of those things where, of
course you you never imagine to be in any sort
of disastrous situation, especially like that. And then you think
about people who have kids, and as someone who's now
a father, you know of my own and you'll think
about having my own daughter and having a situation like
that if that were to happen, I can't imagine how
I would feel as a parent in that situation. And
(32:39):
for for Paul to be able to really handle everything
the way that he did, I think it really just
kind of goes to show his character and all this.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And in the how the details, in the hours and
the prosecution and again you know, he gets emotional when
he you know, hears that little girl. Yeah, you know,
testimony is it's still, to this day is the worst
bus crash in American history. It's crazy that that's still
a stat but it was just and like I said
before the story, I said, there's you know, in tragedy,
(33:10):
there's always ten or eleven things that have to happen
in order at precise time for the tragedy to happen,
and that one has at least ten, you know, from
them filling up the gas, to his friends letting him
drive after they try to take his keys. Just one
thing after another led to that tragedy. And we have
to remember because we have to stop drinking and driving
and doing that and make sure we're safe.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
And I've got to say one of the anytime I
make that drive on the Interstate and get to Carrollton,
it's impossible if you're familiar with that scene and what happened,
it's impossible to not get a queasy feeling when you're
driving past that side of the bus crash.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
All right, thank you, John Alton. We'll be back tomorrow, Dwight,
it'll still be out. Don't forget to go to klin
clydelock dot com if you need a commercial door one
or one hundred.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
They take care of it.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Clein Brothers since nineteen fourteen. The keyless acts to your work.
You've got to take care of that, take care of
your merchandise, take care of the people that work for you.
They are clinlock dot com, free estimates and twenty four
hour service. Let's see if the thieves can get through
that commercial door. All right, clinlock dot com. We'll see
(34:15):
you tomorrow on NewsRadio eight forty w h A. S.
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