Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Alabama's Morning News.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm JAT and joining us now to talk about what's
going on with the Luigi Mangioni case. Doctor John Brady,
who was a forensic psychologist and who has spent decades
inside the minds of murderers and manipulators and extremists. Doctor
Brady always good to catch up with you. Thanks for
being with me this morning, No, JT.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
It's my pleasure to be on your show again. I
really appreciate the Morning Drive show.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well, I got to tell you you do great work
and I love your insight on cases like Luigi Mangioni,
the guy that's being accused of killing the CEO United Healthcare.
There are a lot of people, including my producer Mackenzie,
who believes that this may not be the right guy.
And there's you know, there's conspiracy theories out there that
you know, the really the person that did this doesn't
(00:43):
need to be outed and it's a deeper, darker story
than we realize. But then there's the other side that says, look,
you know the evidence of what he's gotten, you know,
if well, if it was staged, maybe they staged everything.
So let's talk about the recently released evidence. I guess
it came out over the weekend. Does this help the
prosecution's case or is you know, I think they got
(01:04):
the right guy.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Where are you on this?
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Yeah, listen, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So in chapter seven of my book Breakdown, which comes
out in January, I do a whole discussion of Luigi
Manngioni and his case and my prospective. In other words,
I haven't interviewed him, but these are just my psychological
guesses concerning what his mental status is.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
So he.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Falls into the category JT that I call the vigilanti tourism.
This is a popular concept now. It's all over the country,
maybe not just this country, maybe other countries also. Where
these vigilantes get he look for a particular cause and
they follow up that cause with an ends justify the
(02:00):
mean situation.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
So when you go back to the.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Clint Eastwood movies, the man that rides into town, he's
really a vigilante in the nineteen sixties. As you move
forward and you look at popular culture, you know, popular culture,
this kind of pathology is always downstream from popular culture.
If you look at popular culture, you look at the
(02:27):
kind of movies and TV series that are on a
lot of them involve vigilanti tourism, people looking for a
cause to justify their particular actions. Mangioni fits perfectly into
this subjective model where he looked for.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
A particular cause.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
He is obviously a Marxist, a revolutionary who who thought
his ideas were pre eminent over legal, social organizational principles
in society.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
So he was in quote the.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Man, yeah, taking one for the team.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
There's a lot of people struggling, a lot of people
losing family members. I'm going to do this for everybody
that's hurting because of the big corporate minds and businesses
and companies like United Healthcare who deny people, good people
that pay, you know, their premiums, and the yet still denied.
So I'll tell you when I was amazed, and I
don't think for any you know, stretch of anybody's imagination,
(03:36):
you agree with anything he did here. And I think
they got the right guy too. But you know, when
I saw the backlash on the prosecutors and the cops
and saying, well, look, you know, took one for the team.
I'm on board freed Luigi and all this stuff. I mean,
the support for this guy. Are you surprised?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
No, I'm not surprised because this kind of identification with
the aggressor or with the deviant, goes back a long
way JT. As a matter of fact, Sigmund Freud, who
we all studied in college, Sigmund Freud's youngest daughter, wrote
about this situation and she called it the identification with
(04:18):
the aggressor. In modern times, it's called the Stockholm syndrome,
where these people identify with the the the evil person,
as opposed to identifying with the good person in this
In this case, the good person was obviously Brian Thompson.
The bad person, of course, is Mangioni, who, beyond a
(04:42):
shadow of a doubt, did commit this particular crime. He
in his own mind. It's it's my supposition that he
thought that he could he could equalize the the or
rebalance the the healthcare system by by assassinating mister Thompson,
(05:03):
and thereby would cause an.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Earthquake or a revolution in healthcare.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
This kind of distorted thinking gets into the martyrdom martyrdom
syndrome syndrome where people think that my actions are so
important that they're going to change the outcome of whatever
situation that I'm addressing. Whether it's a political situation, whether
(05:30):
it's in the healthcare situation, whether it's in some social
justice situation. And Mangioni fits perfectly into this vigilanti tourism,
looking for touring, looking for some kind of an identity
where he can stand out. So it's tied into narcissism
(05:54):
also JT where the person is so narcissistic that they
put their leaf system and their actions way above anything
anything that guide societies such as laws and social moreis yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
You know, and the same thing happened when Charlie Kirk
was killed. You know, all of a sudden, Now this
guy didn't do it. Look at the guy behind Charlie
on the phone, who's he talking to? Wise he walking away?
So calmly, let's talk about this theory. Let's talk about
that theory once again. I think they got the right
guy based on all the digital information they got in
the evidence here. But you say without a shadow of doubt,
(06:30):
without a shadow of a doubt, that Luigi Mangioni is
the guy. They got the right one.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
You think, yeah, they've got the identified suspect. Now it's
incumbent on the defense attorneys the Nifilo family. Karen and
Mark and Nifilo, the two defense attorneys a husband and
wife to come up with a particular defense JT. The
(06:55):
wrinkle in this situation is that you have this identification.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
With the oppressor, situation.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
So widespread in New York, particularly among young people, that
all you need is one juror to nullify all the
evidence that you mentioned at the top of your show,
to nullify that evidence and say no, he did it
for good intent, for good intent, he did it because
(07:28):
he wanted to be a martyr. He wanted to help
society more than he wanted to hurt society. Therefore, I'm
rejecting the evidence and I'm going to vote not guilty.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
So the prosecution is up against the wall. And you
can imagine in New York, to find.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
A sympathetic juror is not looking for a needle in
a haystack.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
It's looking for the haystack because.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
The cards are definitely in the favor of the defense
in the situation.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Wait a minute, the cards are stacked in favor of
the defense.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yes, yes, because.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
All they need is the one juror were going to exonerate,
you know, Mangione.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
They'll find one juror.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
I don't care what kind of jury process selection, what
kind of psychologists that they.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Use in order to screen these people.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
They're going to find one particular person that's going to
disguise their allegiances or their their even subconscious identification with
Mangione's intent.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
They're going to get on the jury. They're going to
nullify the evidence and say not.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Guilty despite the evidence.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
They're going to go that way, like you say, you
only need one, you know, a reasonable doubt and there
you got it. Well, doctor Brady, this gonna be a
great case and I'd love to have you back on
about it the proceeds, but we've got to move on here.
But my gosh, what an interesting case. And you know,
I hope they nail this guy and he gets what
he deserves in this. Thank you so much, sir, JT.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Listen, thanks, and don't really don't move on one hundred
percent from me because I'd like to talk to you again.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
We'll do it. You got it, Thanks buddy.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Thanks JT. Both tides
Alabama's Morning News.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm JAT and joining us now to talk about what's
going on with the Luigi Mangioni case. Doctor John Brady,
who was a forensic psychologist and who has spent decades
inside the minds of murderers and manipulators and extremists. Doctor
Brady always good to catch up with you. Thanks for
being with me this morning, No, JT.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
It's my pleasure to be on your show again. I
really appreciate the Morning Drive show.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well, I got to tell you you do great work
and I love your insight on cases like Luigi Mangioni,
the guy that's being accused of killing the CEO United Healthcare.
There are a lot of people, including my producer Mackenzie,
who believes that this may not be the right guy.
And there's you know, there's conspiracy theories out there that
you know, the really the person that did this doesn't
(00:43):
need to be outed and it's a deeper, darker story
than we realize. But then there's the other side that says, look,
you know the evidence of what he's gotten, you know,
if well, if it was staged, maybe they staged everything.
So let's talk about the recently released evidence. I guess
it came out over the weekend. Does this help the
prosecution's case or is you know, I think they got
(01:04):
the right guy.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Where are you on this?
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Yeah, listen, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So in chapter seven of my book Breakdown, which comes
out in January, I do a whole discussion of Luigi
Manngioni and his case and my prospective. In other words,
I haven't interviewed him, but these are just my psychological
guesses concerning what his mental status is.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
So he.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Falls into the category JT that I call the vigilanti tourism.
This is a popular concept now. It's all over the country,
maybe not just this country, maybe other countries also. Where
these vigilantes get he look for a particular cause and
they follow up that cause with an ends justify the
(02:00):
mean situation.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
So when you go back to the.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Clint Eastwood movies, the man that rides into town, he's
really a vigilante in the nineteen sixties. As you move
forward and you look at popular culture, you know, popular culture,
this kind of pathology is always downstream from popular culture.
If you look at popular culture, you look at the
(02:27):
kind of movies and TV series that are on a
lot of them involve vigilanti tourism, people looking for a
cause to justify their particular actions. Mangioni fits perfectly into
this subjective model where he looked for.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
A particular cause.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
He is obviously a Marxist, a revolutionary who who thought
his ideas were pre eminent over legal, social organizational principles
in society.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
So he was in quote the.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Man, yeah, taking one for the team.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
There's a lot of people struggling, a lot of people
losing family members. I'm going to do this for everybody
that's hurting because of the big corporate minds and businesses
and companies like United Healthcare who deny people, good people
that pay, you know, their premiums, and the yet still denied.
So I'll tell you when I was amazed, and I
don't think for any you know, stretch of anybody's imagination,
(03:36):
you agree with anything he did here. And I think
they got the right guy too. But you know, when
I saw the backlash on the prosecutors and the cops
and saying, well, look, you know, took one for the team.
I'm on board freed Luigi and all this stuff. I mean,
the support for this guy. Are you surprised?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
No, I'm not surprised because this kind of identification with
the aggressor or with the deviant, goes back a long
way JT. As a matter of fact, Sigmund Freud, who
we all studied in college, Sigmund Freud's youngest daughter, wrote
about this situation and she called it the identification with
(04:18):
the aggressor. In modern times, it's called the Stockholm syndrome,
where these people identify with the the the evil person,
as opposed to identifying with the good person in this
In this case, the good person was obviously Brian Thompson.
The bad person, of course, is Mangioni, who, beyond a
(04:42):
shadow of a doubt, did commit this particular crime. He
in his own mind. It's it's my supposition that he
thought that he could he could equalize the the or
rebalance the the healthcare system by by assassinating mister Thompson,
(05:03):
and thereby would cause an.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Earthquake or a revolution in healthcare.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
This kind of distorted thinking gets into the martyrdom martyrdom
syndrome syndrome where people think that my actions are so
important that they're going to change the outcome of whatever
situation that I'm addressing. Whether it's a political situation, whether
(05:30):
it's in the healthcare situation, whether it's in some social
justice situation. And Mangioni fits perfectly into this vigilanti tourism,
looking for touring, looking for some kind of an identity
where he can stand out. So it's tied into narcissism
(05:54):
also JT where the person is so narcissistic that they
put their leaf system and their actions way above anything
anything that guide societies such as laws and social moreis yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
You know, and the same thing happened when Charlie Kirk
was killed. You know, all of a sudden, Now this
guy didn't do it. Look at the guy behind Charlie
on the phone, who's he talking to? Wise he walking away?
So calmly, let's talk about this theory. Let's talk about
that theory once again. I think they got the right
guy based on all the digital information they got in
the evidence here. But you say without a shadow of doubt,
(06:30):
without a shadow of a doubt, that Luigi Mangioni is
the guy. They got the right one.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
You think, yeah, they've got the identified suspect. Now it's
incumbent on the defense attorneys the Nifilo family. Karen and
Mark and Nifilo, the two defense attorneys a husband and
wife to come up with a particular defense JT. The
(06:55):
wrinkle in this situation is that you have this identification.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
With the oppressor, situation.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
So widespread in New York, particularly among young people, that
all you need is one juror to nullify all the
evidence that you mentioned at the top of your show,
to nullify that evidence and say no, he did it
for good intent, for good intent, he did it because
(07:28):
he wanted to be a martyr. He wanted to help
society more than he wanted to hurt society. Therefore, I'm
rejecting the evidence and I'm going to vote not guilty.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
So the prosecution is up against the wall. And you
can imagine in New York, to find.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
A sympathetic juror is not looking for a needle in
a haystack.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
It's looking for the haystack because.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
The cards are definitely in the favor of the defense
in the situation.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Wait a minute, the cards are stacked in favor of
the defense.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Yes, yes, because.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
All they need is the one juror were going to exonerate,
you know, Mangione.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
They'll find one juror.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
I don't care what kind of jury process selection, what
kind of psychologists that they.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Use in order to screen these people.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
They're going to find one particular person that's going to
disguise their allegiances or their their even subconscious identification with
Mangione's intent.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
They're going to get on the jury. They're going to
nullify the evidence and say not.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Guilty despite the evidence.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
They're going to go that way, like you say, you
only need one, you know, a reasonable doubt and there
you got it. Well, doctor Brady, this gonna be a
great case and I'd love to have you back on
about it the proceeds, but we've got to move on here.
But my gosh, what an interesting case. And you know,
I hope they nail this guy and he gets what
he deserves in this. Thank you so much, sir, JT.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Listen, thanks, and don't really don't move on one hundred
percent from me because I'd like to talk to you again.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
We'll do it. You got it, Thanks buddy.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Thanks JT. Both tides
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